Gender Roles and Equality in the Crafte

In this episode, we will discuss what gender roles are within our tradition. We will also discuss what "equality" means within our tradition. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:38

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. I'm Kegan, and with me is Lori Knight. And today's subject is Gender Roles and Equality in the Craft. Are there gender roles in the craft?

SPEAKER_07 0:53

Well, yes. There's always gender roles in the craft. If we start back at the basics, we believe there are two polarities. We refer to these polarities as both male and female. Male being the active and female being the passive. You could even look at it as the male being the projective and the female being the receptive. These two forces are described in many different ways. Now when we talk about individual people, we believe that both these polarities exist in each person. Some, the female polarity, might be greater than the male polarity, and vice versa. It is sort of like that concept of the yin and the yang. In our tradition, when we look at people who are going to eventually become high priests, high priestesses, and be working together, we're going to be looking at high priest and priestesses who complement each other.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

They have to be male and female.

SPEAKER_07 1:52

Yes. In our tradition, to maintain the difference between the mundane and the spiritual, that role is placed on the spiritual role is placed on the priestess and the mundane is placed upon the priest. Now, in the actual running of the temple and jobs and stuff like that, we do not necessarily think of gender women should be cooking and the men shouldn't. Jobs are done by whoever needs to do it.

SPEAKER_05 2:23

Right.

SPEAKER_07 2:23

Regardless of who they are. So if like we're doing a big bonfire, everybody helps out. If we're doing a feast, everybody helps out. Even our priests and priestesses are taught the same concepts on how to run their temple.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

And those jobs aren't based on gender but rank.

SPEAKER_07 2:45

Rank, knowledge, experience, you know. Um you might actually have a priestess that's good at bookkeeping and accounting and stuff like that, and the priest that's not. Doing the bookkeeping might not be considered uh necessarily spiritual, but who's ever better at it's gonna do it. Right. We do expect that that priest understands these concepts too. Because when we're talking about high priest and priestesses in this role, they need to be checks and balances for each other. But when we're talking about religious stuff, yes, the majority of the times the priestess takes on the role of the spiritual guide of the temple. And it is actually considered an insult to the priestess that she might have to step down from that role to do certain tasks.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Why wouldn't that be an insult?

SPEAKER_07 3:36

Because it's beneath her station, her status. If we look over like Britain and the queen there, is considered bad form for her to do certain things or have to do certain things? To me, there's a difference between have to and want to. Oh, sure. At a feast an elder gets up and starts doing dishes. They might want to do it. And if they want to do it, that's fine, but somebody going over there and offering the help is sort of expected.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

On the other hand, high priest or priestess has to do what's best for temple, even if that's doing things that are beneath their station.

SPEAKER_07 4:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

Shouldn't be viewed as an insult.

SPEAKER_07 4:17

No, it's not. When you're talking about that third degree rank, we literally rank things in this order. It's craft first, then our coven temple, then meeting those needs of our people and our needs and spiritual stuff literally comes down to the bottom of that.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Right. Well, optimally. So if someone came in to with you who identified as female but was born a male, would he be considered priestess or priest? His birth gender or what he identified with?

SPEAKER_07 4:57

Okay, this gets a little confusing because first of all, when we're dealing with temple in more of a social setting, feasts and stuff like that, we're gonna treat that person based on how they associate. Okay. We're not gonna be disrespectful or anything like that. But when we're talking about a spiritual need, we there are certain energies that we believe in our temple, wrong or right, that men cannot handle. It literally messes with our wiring and can cause more spiritual, psychological, and emotional trauma than anything else. I believe there are other temples out there that believe the same way we do. Um we're not trying to be disrespectful to these people, we're actually trying to do this for their safety. To us, women are ACDC.

SPEAKER_06 5:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 5:53

Because women are able to give birth to men and women that they have a natural talent to channel those energies through without harming them spiritually.

SPEAKER_05 6:07

Right.

SPEAKER_07 6:10

Where men might just be DC and you're trying to put an AC current into DC, it does not work.

SPEAKER_06 6:19

Right.

SPEAKER_07 6:20

It shorts stuff out. Now them meditating and working with those energies on a lower level might not be as harmful, but when we're talking more intense things, especially when you get up to the rank of third degree, because our third degrees in our tradition are allowed to what we refer to as incarnate, and men incarnating that female aspect of deity is never a good thing.

SPEAKER_05 6:59

Right.

SPEAKER_07 7:01

And I can't allow it because I have to protect this person because it will mess with their wiring.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:10

There are physical limitations upon this. Now, I mean, with that said, don't get me wrong, when we look at women and we say that they can channel those male energies. They can. I'm not gonna say it's gonna be comfortable for them, but there's less likely a chance of damage. It's not an ideal situation when one of our priestesses have to do this. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_06 7:42

It does.

SPEAKER_04 7:43

It does. I'd like to I'd like to back you up here. Um in case you get some kickback on this, and I feel like you will.

SPEAKER_07 7:55

That's fine. I mean, I believe what I believe, and you know, if somebody else can come out there and convince me otherwise, please do.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

Good luck. Um Carl Jung, Swiss psychiatrist, psychologist, says, and I quote, a woman can identify directly with the Earth Mother, but a man cannot, except in psychotic cases.

SPEAKER_06 8:29

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

So he would back you up on that.

SPEAKER_07 8:35

And which I understand. I I know some people would probably sit there and argue, okay, when fetuses start out, they actually s all start out female. And in cases of boys or the fetus suddenly becoming a b of the male gender, um is introduced to certain testosterones to cause physical changes. And I'd even argue that those physical changes happen to the brain too.

SPEAKER_05 9:13

Oh sure. Oh sure.

SPEAKER_07 9:15

So that alone, I could see somebody arguing that, but once those physical changes are done, that wiring is completely altered forever.

SPEAKER_04 9:27

Right. Well, another quote I'm gonna give you here from um John Mitchell, who wrote The Earth Spirit. It says, before civilization sets in, the earth is one universal deity, a living creature, a female, because it receives the power of the sun and is animated and therefore made fertile.

SPEAKER_06 9:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

So to me that says, Because here's your argument you're gonna have is but what makes you female, what makes you male, besides the anatomy? We're gonna talk about psychic gender.

SPEAKER_06 10:08

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

Well then because I feel like I'm a man, or if I feel like I'm a woman, then that's enough female or male energy there. It's gonna be the argument.

SPEAKER_07 10:22

Uh true. Let's get down to a little bit more basic here. We believe there is a such thing as a soul. We also believe there's a such thing as a spirit. These two who certain religions and talks will often get interchanged with each other. Again, my own personal thoughts here. I I teach most people that I believe actually that these two things are separate.

SPEAKER_05 10:56

Right.

SPEAKER_07 10:58

That the soul is the identity of the person and spirit is what makes you alive. Right. So something alive doesn't necessarily have to have a soul. But something that has a soul has to have spirit. Make sense?

SPEAKER_04 11:20

Yes, that's good.

SPEAKER_07 11:21

Okay. Now when we're talking now spirit, it's just that that makes us alive, breathing. It's in dogs, cats, trees, leaves, all that.

SPEAKER_05 11:32

Right.

SPEAKER_07 11:33

It's you know, a pretty universal force. The soul itself is a non-gendered thing. It's a personality, it's the emotions of that individual.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

It what make what makes them them.

SPEAKER_07 11:55

Right. Regardless of gender. Right. Because even we believe that when you reincarnate, that you might go from female, that the pattern should be that you go from a female body to a male body back to a female body.

SPEAKER_05 12:12

Right.

SPEAKER_07 12:14

And that there could be people that are in this cycle for whatever reason, it got interrupted. And they should have been in a female body, but they wound up in a male body. And spiritually, or the soul sitting back going, Okay, my cycle was this, but now I'm stuck like this.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Oh, that's pretty. I've never thought about that.

SPEAKER_07 12:49

Now if you have a soul that's sitting back going, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, where'd you go? Better.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

There you go. There you are. Now if you have a soul sitting back.

SPEAKER_07 13:03

Right. That this could be what causes this conflict of identity? Identity. It could be. I'm not saying it is, it just it could be. Because even this is, you know, even you know, my teacher, Lord Minn, used this argument as to the origins spiritually of gay people. That, you know, they got a little bit more of that feminine energy in them that sort of kicks things off to make people like someone of the same sex.

SPEAKER_06 13:40

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

SPEAKER_07 13:45

In which, you know, I tend to argue, okay, could this be what's causing these sudden onset of dysphoria? Because, you know, our modern society and the way things are going on between drug abuse and violence and w our scale up of war and stuff has interrupted a lot of people's cycles.

SPEAKER_04 14:09

Yeah. You mean reincarnation-wise.

SPEAKER_07 14:14

Reincarnation-wise. But it still does not negate the fact that, you know, there are physical limitations upon the body. And we have to look at nature. Why, yes, there are some creatures that are able to change genders, we're not one of those. Right. Even then, and most of those that I've heard about that can change from male to female or female to male, in those species, that's normally there's some extreme circumstances on the species itself to trigger this.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Extinction.

SPEAKER_07 14:59

Right. That for some reason that there was a um population boom of one gender over another.

SPEAKER_06 15:08

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 15:08

In either direction. Us as quote unquote humans do not have this problem.

SPEAKER_04 15:19

So no matter what you feel, no matter what gender you are psychically, no matter what gender you have, iner energy-wise, physically, your body can only take so much.

SPEAKER_07 15:34

Well, I mean, that's true about everybody. I mean, let's really think about this, alright? There's only so much weight or so much force the human body can tolerate before starting to break down. Hence the reason why we do get broke bones and stuff like that. I'm sorry, you cannot jump off a building and expect, okay, I'm super strong and my body's gonna hold up to this. We know physically this is not possible.

SPEAKER_05 16:08

Right.

SPEAKER_07 16:10

While some people might live, it's going to riddle their body in pain forever. There's limitations. There are physical limitations. To me, this is just another one of them limitations. Men or priests channeling those female energies can be highly damaging.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

But God, you might have to stop me here. I don't know if I can say this or not. I think it's in a book, so it might be okay, but if it's not, let me know. But you do, and I could be wrong. But priests, high priests do channel the goddess into the priestess, right?

SPEAKER_06 17:01

No.

SPEAKER_04 17:03

You better get on the phone with these Ferrars, and you better be telling them.

SPEAKER_07 17:08

No, I mean, that's not the way I necessarily see it or believe it.

SPEAKER_06 17:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 17:16

Alright. So we gotta be careful here because we're talking about mysteries about how we actually do this.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Okay. Let's move on.

SPEAKER_07 17:26

Let's just let's just say that when we call upon our God deity, he's there to protect the passage so that the goddess can be there.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 17:47

We're not changing channels. Are you with me?

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Yeah, I'm with you.

SPEAKER_07 17:52

The priestess is not, you know, the priest and priestesses are not changing channels. That same person is still receiving that info.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

So you don't there's no channeling between the roles there?

SPEAKER_07 18:07

No, again. It's a priestess job.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

Because according to the Ferrars.

SPEAKER_06 18:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

And you know everything they say is absolutely concrete truth.

SPEAKER_06 18:19

Oh, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 18:21

The male will be the conduit for that female energy to enter the the priestess, and then uh the priestess will be the conduit for the male to draw down the sun as well.

SPEAKER_07 18:35

Right, but my my thought is he he's there to just stabilize it, to protect it.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

Well, here was my thought. And the way the Ferrar say it was the priest, the high priest, channels the goddess into the into the priestess first. And I'm thinking, wait a minute now, now you got the goddess standing by herself.

SPEAKER_07 18:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

At the very least, shouldn't the god be there first?

SPEAKER_07 19:01

Well, that's the difference in traditions. So again, men channeling female energies can be damaging. When we're talking about damaging, we are talking about spiritual, emotional, and psychological damage.

SPEAKER_04 19:20

So even as a last resort, is that a no?

SPEAKER_07 19:25

As a last resort? If all else fails I'm not saying men can't do this, but it's going to again, spiritually, mentally, emotionally wear down that person. It's gonna wear down the male body.

SPEAKER_04 19:47

What about the female body?

SPEAKER_07 19:50

While it can handle that energy, it's more like you don't necessarily feel right doing it. Less physical damage, less emotional, spiritual damage to that psyche. In comparison. Um why can't that do it and it does do it? It is not the ideal. It's not something, you know, in our tradition, we encourage women to do, but we don't discourage them either. It's something that's limited in comparison.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

Well, with the males, it's holly, highly discouraged. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 20:37

Yes. Just to be flat out honest with you, and yes, it's probably gonna get me in trouble. Yes. The way I'm looking at our traditions and stuff in temple, I cannot let a male who is transitioning to a female be a priestess. And all right.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

Even if they've already trans transitioned completely.

SPEAKER_07 21:01

Yes. Now again, this person inside temple will be treated with respect. They're not going to be treated like an outsider or told, no, you can't even join at all. You can join, you can study, you can learn, but there are just certain aspects of our tradition that we just cannot allow them to do.

SPEAKER_04 21:28

That you have to be recognized as your birth gender.

SPEAKER_07 21:31

Right. Well, for certain roles. Now, again, I'm also gonna say this, but you know what they do in the province of their own home is their business. I'm just gonna say when we come together as a group, I'm not gonna allow that.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

What well okay, so incarnating is a no-no. But what about titles for someone who's transgender? Would you teach them as a priestess or a priest if they were born male but was tran was um transitioning to female?

SPEAKER_07 22:11

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

Would they be priest or priestess?

SPEAKER_07 22:16

That would be something I would probably have to discuss with the other elders on what we would actually how we would actually handle that.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 22:29

Because on the one hand, like I said, as far as jobs go, we're not differentiating. The only thing we differentiate is is that the our priestesses handle that spiritual aspect and the males handle the mundane aspects of a temple.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

But you're both trained for both roles.

SPEAKER_07 22:52

Right. To a certain degree. Even though there's certain things the priest is not allowed to do that the priestess can do.

SPEAKER_05 22:59

Right.

SPEAKER_07 23:01

But then we're back to we have to meditate and deal with certain things of our own psyche. So I would say that this individualizer meditating and going through their own problems and issues through their meditation, that they would find their own balance. Or have I just lost you?

SPEAKER_04 23:27

No, I'm I I'm not lost, I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_07 23:30

See, I don't want people to I I wouldn't want anybody to think that this is a problem to be solved, that individual would find some type of balance within themselves.

SPEAKER_05 23:41

Right.

SPEAKER_07 23:42

Just like we all do.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

Just like we all do. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 23:47

We're not looking at this as, oh, your your issues are so much bigger than ours. Everybody has issues.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 23:54

And we all have to work through those issues. And again, we're not gonna ask these people to do, you know, someone who's transitioning to do anything different as far as our meditation according to our issues than we ask or have anybody else in temple do.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

Well, it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_07 24:16

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:17

As much as we hate it and we fight it and we complain about it, it is a good thing.

SPEAKER_07 24:25

It is. And through that process we do find the balance within ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

Or that's the plan.

SPEAKER_07 24:34

That's the plan.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

That's the plan.

SPEAKER_07 24:37

And my hope is that these people would find that balance too.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

What about equality in the craft with your different d genders? Is there anybody better than anybody else regarding their gender?

SPEAKER_07 24:55

No. I mean, once we enter that circle, once we enter that sacred space, we're all equals.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

With different roles.

SPEAKER_07 25:04

With yeah, with different roles and stuff like that. I mean, it's just like anybody, yeah. I mean, when you start thinking about in terms of temple or should I say, um, tribal settings, not everybody can be a blacksmith. Right. Not everybody can be a healer. So people who have a leaning or a better grasp on certain aspects are going to take up those aspects.

SPEAKER_05 25:30

Right.

SPEAKER_07 25:31

And bring them to their, you know, conclusion or to an art form almost, regardless of what it is.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Be the best you can be.

SPEAKER_07 25:42

Yes, of that. You know, regardless if you're a man or woman and you know, your cooking skills, if that's what they want to do to help preserve craft, that's what they're gonna do. We're gonna encourage them to do that.

SPEAKER_04 25:58

Master your craft.

SPEAKER_07 26:00

Right. But in circle, we're we're all equals.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

So the priestess is no better than the priest.

SPEAKER_07 26:09

No.

SPEAKER_04 26:10

I think there's some confusion out there on that.

SPEAKER_07 26:13

No, I mean there's just they're two different roles.

SPEAKER_04 26:17

We're not looking for equality, we're looking for balance.

SPEAKER_07 26:20

Exactly. Even what I said at the beginning, we're gonna be looking at two third degrees to work together who are going to be complementary to each other, but they're yes, they're equal in status and knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Does that only start applying with the third degrees?

SPEAKER_07 26:38

It starts applying when you're at first degree. Then when you get the second degree, it's even more intense.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

Because I my personal experience with Oswan and myself, I can see absolutely no discrimination there between the two of us.

SPEAKER_07 26:58

No. No, I mean it's just the both treated like dirt. You're both treated like what?

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Dirt.

SPEAKER_07 27:10

No, we're not treated like dirt.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

No, we're not. We're not treated like dirt. But there is no discrimination between, you know, Oswan and myself that I'm seeing.

SPEAKER_07 27:18

No, I mean we're asking you to do the responsibilities and the duties of a first degree. Right. And we're not asking you to do anything outside that scope.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

Right. So it doesn't seem like to me or that I've noticed, that I've experienced, that there is a big difference at all.

unknown 27:36

No.

SPEAKER_04 27:37

As far as roles or you know, jobs or I there is no difference.

SPEAKER_07 27:42

First degrees are treated as first degree, second degrees are treated as second degrees.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

So it's just about your job that you have.

SPEAKER_07 27:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

The role that you have to play.

SPEAKER_07 27:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

To keep Coven running inbound.

SPEAKER_07 27:58

And to preserve craft.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Well, what would you say to the Dianetics who are predominantly female?

SPEAKER_07 28:08

What do you want me to say? I'm not going to crash on any other sect or any other religion or beliefs. All I can say is this is what I believe, and they are more than welcome to believe and practice the way they want to. Any religion that sits there and goes, ooh, no, this is the way, and you have to do it this way, I'd tell you to run from.

SPEAKER_05 28:31

Right.

SPEAKER_07 28:32

Any religion that does not allow you to question or grow. Ooh, no.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

Because you're big on those whys.

SPEAKER_07 28:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 28:43

Question, question, question.

SPEAKER_07 28:46

I think we're about done with our coffee. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 28:50

I'm done with my coffee.

SPEAKER_07 28:52

All right. Well, I guess we'll pick this up next week with a different topic.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Of course. Me and the magic hat will be here.

SPEAKER_07 29:00

Alright. Well, we'll see you later and we'll chat later.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Thank you for listening to Peggy and Coffee Talk. I hope you join us next week.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

We travel down the drive. Just hold my hand as we are.