Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
The Great Pagan Divide
Have you ever noticed how spiritual communities sometimes split into seemingly opposing camps? That's exactly what we're diving into this week as we explore a fascinating division within the pagan world.
One path is filled with practitioners who see divine signs everywhere they look—every coincidence becomes an omen, every unusual occurrence a message from the gods. While this approach brings wonder and magic into everyday life, we question what happens when this mentality becomes an expectation or requirement for "proper" practice. Are we setting ourselves up for what some have aptly called "spiritual psychosis"?
The other path seeks a more grounded approach, embracing both spiritual heights and the reality of human existence. These practitioners recognize that true growth often requires trudging through difficult emotions rather than bypassing them with spiritual quick fixes. Like plants that need both nurture and stress to develop strong roots, our spiritual lives thrive when we acknowledge the full spectrum of human experience.
We challenge the notion that specialized tools and elaborate setups are necessary for connecting with deities or practicing effectively. While altars, candles, and ritual objects can be beautiful and meaningful aids, we explore how the essence of practice ultimately resides within the practitioner—in the breath, intention, and emotion behind the work. As Lord Night asks, "If I take all your books and tools away, are you still a witch?" The answer reveals what truly matters in spiritual practice.
We hope this episode offers valuable perspective on finding balance between mystical experience and grounded reality. We invite you to join the conversation and share your own thoughts on navigating these seemingly divergent approaches to spirituality.
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Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Alright. So I was looking on Reddit and I saw this one post where they were talking about how this one person feels that the pagan community is splitting into two directions.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:One is all about signs and omens and, as they put it, spiritual psychosis. Yes, one is all about signs and omens and, as they put it, spiritual psychosis.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Where, if you're not seeing visions, if you're not getting those signs and omens from the gods, then you're doing this wrong.
Speaker 2:If you're not being smacked around on the gods on a minute-by-minute basis, you're not doing this right.
Speaker 1:Right, the other one is those of us who maybe want a more deeper connection right all of this is kind of right, more grounded in reality, more um more realistic about our expectations and our practices right, there does seem to be the set of the community.
Speaker 2:They have these lofty ideas. You know again, you. You do a spell right, quick, and suddenly all your trauma's gone, or right, that's. That's in the first group, yeah this is the first group and where the second group's more like okay, no, your trauma's just not healed. You sort of got to go trumping through it and deal with it and, right, clean the sore out, I guess. Right. So what started this? Well, again, we've always had the fluffy bunnies I think it's, I think it's.
Speaker 1:Uh, it's a pattern. It comes and goes.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is not something new, these people have always existed in the pagan community Right.
Speaker 1:So I don't think it's actually anything. That's recent. It's not. Oh, all of a sudden we're splitting in two directions.
Speaker 2:It's kind of always been this way. It's always been this way, but I think the side, that which we refer to as the fluffy bunnies I'm just being honest, all right, it seems to be, I have to admit over the years seem to be becoming more and more prominent.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, you know everything again, everything they do, yes, is a sign from Hecate. Yes, I'm so important that everything through my life is which is kind of weird because I walk through my life. Yes, I see where the gods have interfered or have touched nature. Do you see what I'm saying? I can see the divine and stuff, but it doesn't make me want to everything going. Oh, no, I've got to reanalyze this spot on a tree, right I don't know how to explain that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I don't either. It's uh, I don't think everything is divine intervention.
Speaker 2:I think signs and omens and things like that do hold their place well I think you can get wrapped up into the signs and omens a little too much.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's easy to do. It's easy to do Back in high school. Perfect example of this right Back in high school I was part of a group and we called it Magical Singers Right, and we did a magical play for the Christmas season. And magical is just, it's medieval, it's renaissance, it's that type of atmosphere right, so we had a king and we had a queen, and we had a royal court and we had jesters and servants and all this other stuff.
Speaker 2:Y'all did the whole pomp and circumstance. Yes, we did, it was fun.
Speaker 1:Yes, we had a pig that we paraded around for everybody while we sang the boar's head song, right, um, but part of our presentation was, um, periodically we were allowed to go around to people's tables and blow out their candle and say, oh no, the spirits are here, right, right, and there was one night in particular that we were doing this and, yeah, we had a lot of spirits yeah because people got wrapped up into go walking up and blowing people's candles out right right, it just got a little out of control.
Speaker 1:Same thing it's just easy to get wrapped up into that spiritual side of things.
Speaker 2:Right. I mean, when we're sitting here and we're talking about the fluffy bunnies, we're literally talking about these people. They are, they're that toxic positivity. Everything is a good omen.
Speaker 2:Everything is I mean, Well, it's not always good, but yeah, there is that toxic positivity always good, but, yeah, there is that toxic positivity there that does happen in this is it's that everything's just too good to sunshine and and life's not that way. I mean most people, I know most, most people who follow craft. The idea behind this is is that we almost walk through the darkness before we can enjoy the light. Right, you know that we have to go through hard times to have the good times. Right, all right, to have the good times, we got to go through the hard times. Not acknowledging that cycle to me is a little bit of a problem. You know, I'm just saying just staying just on the sunny side. I'm sorry, plants need rest and all this other stuff. So what are we doing here? I mean, is the world really that positive?
Speaker 1:No, I don't think so. I mean talking about plants when you're trying to relate it to that. Plants need a certain amount of stress. Yes to grow to grow and to um produce strong roots. Right, but they do need. They do need that time of rest. They need that time where they're not being stressed out, they need to recover, they need to recuperate and, again, that's all part of what makes them stronger.
Speaker 2:Right same thing with people well, again, you, you work out, you, you go and you stress your muscles, trying to break them down so your body can rebuild them exactly we but, and if we believe in cycles and craft, right, right, this is nothing more than another cycle. So, yes, part of this is these people want to ignore this part and just think it's the eternal summer lands all the time, right? So again, why is it that people want to avoid strife like this when it's actually good for us? I know, at the time when you're going through it and all that, it's horrible and it's emotional and the whole nine yards.
Speaker 1:But afterwards, you're better off. I think people are forgetting how to handle strife and struggle and things like that, and I don't know why.
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of like we're living in a society where there's a group of us who don't want to feel any bad emotions whatsoever at any given time. Right that seem to have it in your head that you're never supposed to be depressed. Right that it's all supposed to be sunshine and lollipops From the time you wake up to the time you go back to bed. Right, I don't think that's realistic.
Speaker 1:I mean you can't.
Speaker 2:From the time I get up from me personally, from the time I get up from bed to the time I go back down, I have probably gone through more emotions that day, Probably. Yeah, All right, from road rage to aggravation to just watching the news, even doing the whole entire Sunday football chair guy yelling at the TV.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Why would I not want to experience all these emotions?
Speaker 1:even the bad ones, I don't know. I mean again, that's part of the human experience. Well, that's part of life. If you can't, I mean I've said for part of the human experience, Well that's part of life If you can't.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've said for years that the greatest gifts the gods ever gave to us was our emotions. Right, that's where we gain power from. I believe that, yeah, and strength. You know being angry can be helpful. Sure, it can. All right, I mean, you know being angry has changed the world many times. This is true, that's like love. How many wars were caused over love? Too many, I mean. We're not even talking about the. What is that? The Troy, yeah.
Speaker 1:Helen of Troy, yeah stuff, you know where there was a war Right, yeah stuff. You know where there was a war Right, so I don't understand why we have a section of the population who just wants to ignore the other half. I mean, it's the whole yin and yang thing. You can't have one without the other.
Speaker 2:But yet these same people still hear these stories about, about the story of the two wolves inside everyone Right, one's aggressive, one's not the ying, the yang Right, which is a pretty popular story, all right, but yet again, when you actually go out and listen to these people and stuff like that, they're not doing this.
Speaker 2:No, they're not, and I don't get it, and I think that's where the big divide is here. I know we call them fluffy air bunnies, and it also means they're not. They're surface level people, only it's like they only read just the first few chapters of a book or something and they just barely grasp on do you think it's, do you think it's part of the whole?
Speaker 1:do as I say, not as I do. No.
Speaker 2:I think it has.
Speaker 2:I'm like you, I think, part of this has to do with social media and everybody being so positive. You put out something and everybody's too busy patting you on your back. They'll look at you and go well, that's not exactly right. That's not exactly how everybody sees that theory, right? Instead, they put out the theories and all they get are comments back going oh we love you, you're so stunning and brave, and blah, blah, blah. We didn't actually listen to what in the world you said. You're just there and saying some of the positive things we like, right? We're not going to dig up any deeper, look or ask extra questions, right? You know you made me feel good it does.
Speaker 1:It does kind of make you wonder, I mean, I don't, when did social media become the pat on the back that it has?
Speaker 2:well, it seems like it's one of the two either you're getting pats on your back, no matter what Well, it seems like it's one of the two. Either you're getting pats on your back, no matter what in the world you said, or you've got a bunch of people just sitting there telling you you're an idiot. Right, I've never sat there, and there's very few times I've ever sat there, besides on certain websites where it's like okay, context, this makes no sense to me. Very few of those, well again, it's the two extremes.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean you've got on one end. You've got like we discussed earlier, just a few minutes ago. You've got the spiritual psychosis people where everything's a sign, everything's an omen, everything's whatever, yeah. And then you've got the other side of that. Well, this is the same thing. Yeah, it's either toxic positivity or it's toxic negativity.
Speaker 2:All right. Again, we seem to be losing our balance between these two. We do All right and I don't understand why in the world everybody just wants to mainly go to an extreme.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I've always believed that this path is about that balance, Right it's. People on one side of the creek believe one way. People on the other side of the creek believe another way.
Speaker 2:And it is our job to stand in the middle of that creek, going, listen to this side, listen to that side and giving our advice.
Speaker 1:Right, that's what this whole path is about. Right, it's coming to that where not only do you see the balance, but you are the balance.
Speaker 2:Right, but the bulk of the people who again in the community at large, don't seem to do that. I don't understand where we've lost this whole entire balance thing.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know where it happened, I don't know why it happened.
Speaker 2:And to make it even worse is and you go to talk to these people, right? Mm-hmm and what's? Oh, no, we're balanced, how? But you're not, but you're not. And how is that balanced? Oh, because I'm happy all the time.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, you know Well, you can't have happiness without having sadness, right?
Speaker 2:how do you know what happiness is if you've never been sad, right? I'm sorry you know again. Just like I said earlier, there's at least some part during the day.
Speaker 2:Yes, I feel a little sad, or maybe even a little depressed yeah you know, because it's something I've seen on TV that makes me think about a bad thing. But it's not like I'm sitting there, oh now my whole entire day's ruined. How many times have you gone into work not feeling good? But yet once you got there, moving around and stuff, that sick feeling just sort of went away?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then when I leave work it kind of comes back a little bit. Yeah, I mean, it happens.
Speaker 2:It happens.
Speaker 1:I think there's a serious problem that needs to be dealt with, and I don't know how to deal with it.
Speaker 2:Because, again, if you go on TikTok or any of these places and you start going well, wait a minute, these people just suddenly blow up, yeah, All well, wait a minute. These people just suddenly blow up yeah, All over the place. And I think there's part of the problem with not having that balance that when they do get questioned about it and everything and they really do lose it, it's because they haven't been dealing with them other emotions and they're getting slammed with it all of a sudden. I've seen them do that too.
Speaker 1:Yep, it happens like a tidal wave.
Speaker 2:It does. It's kind of like, okay, you've kept all them bad emotions down and I'm going to go over there and just poke that dike just a little bit more Right and then when it breaks they lose it. But yet I've seen witches and people we know and crap. You can sit there and do that to them all day and they'd not even move Right. Might not even recognize your existence.
Speaker 1:Might not. I mean it has happened. But again, I don't know how we deal with this. I don't know.
Speaker 2:We're not sitting here telling these people you can't believe the way you are. It's just, I'm asking questions how do y'all deal with? Because, again, I don't see them dealing with these things. No, so it is confusing to me. It is to me too. So I think we need more coffee. I think so.
Speaker 1:So here's a question for you All right Do we need an altar to communicate with deities?
Speaker 2:No, okay short enough conversation for you, yeah I mean, why not? It. It bothers me more that people have the idea that you are required to have something to connect with the gods than the actual item itself. Did I say that right? I? I think so. The thought that you need anything to offer a prayer or to communicate with the God, it just bothers me.
Speaker 1:I mean, are there things that can help you get into that space? Yes, absolutely, music incense. You know being down by a brook, you know a stream or whatever.
Speaker 2:Well, every morning I get up, I say prayers to my gods, right, I like hold a piece of incense and pray and light it. Right, that's just what. I do yeah, to help me focus. I don't need the incense to do the prayer. No, there's where in the world I think we need to talk about. Why do people think you have to have these things?
Speaker 1:Why are we so reliant on our tools?
Speaker 2:Right, I mean, but I hate to be this way, it's not even in ours. I mean, you've got Catholics with the whole lighting the candles, because I've worked jobs where, okay, the lotto went up and all the Catholic people were like, oh no, I've got to go to church and light a candle, right, all the Catholic people were like, oh no, I got to go to church and light a candle.
Speaker 1:Right and I'm like, okay, how's that not witchcraft? Well, I think those candles are for different purposes.
Speaker 2:But anyway, yeah, but again, it's the same thought You're required to have to use this candle to get.
Speaker 1:I think it's important for a lot of people because it does help them get into that spiritual frame of mind. That's that head space.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying they couldn't be used as triggers to help us Right.
Speaker 1:But I'm just saying I think that's, I think it's where we. It's easy to become reliant on that. Uh-huh, it's easy to become reliant on that instead of taking time to try to work without them, to be able to get into that headspace, into that frame of mind without those tools, without those accoutrements, if you will.
Speaker 2:This is along the same lines of what I hear about the shamans in South America. They all sit there and go. Hey, when we were younger, yes, our teachers gave us drugs to cause us to go into this headspace. But over time they took the drugs away from us and said now you know what it's like. You've got to get there without.
Speaker 1:Well and see, I think that's part of the problem is we don't have a lot of teachers not you know, and then and you've got the solitary practitioners. And again, nothing wrong with being a solitary practitioner, but you're learning on your own yeah and it's easy to become reliant on your tools and your extra things that you're doing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Whereas if you have a teacher, you've got somebody who can kind of help you walk through that and get beyond the tools.
Speaker 2:Right, because you're more looking at what the tool represents.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Versus what the tool actually is Right. I hope that made sense for people. I hope it did too, because that, to me, is what's the toll actually is Right. I hope that made sense for people. I hope it did too, because that, to me, is what's the more important part, the reason behind the toll that you realize you are using as a trigger to put you in the mood to sit down and pray, to sit down and meditate.
Speaker 1:Right. I think in this case it could easily be said it's not the journey at that point, it's the destination.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:The journey, representing the tools. Right To some extent yeah, it's a bad analogy, I know.
Speaker 2:I see it a little bit better the other way around.
Speaker 1:All right, you think the tools are the destination.
Speaker 2:I think the idea is that we think of it as the tools, as a car, and you're using it to go on a journey. Does it really matter if you're in a Corvette or just some old Rambler?
Speaker 1:Okay, better analogy. Either way, either tool is going to get you there. Better analogy I like that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Alright. So there's the way I'm looking at this and, again, that's the way I think we need to look at these things. But we're not. People are using them as barriers not to worship, not to do things. Oh, I don't have an anthem, so I can't worship. I don't have an anthem, so I can't worship. I don't have an altar, so I can't worship. I remember us doing a whole entire full moon ritual where we literally removed the altar. The ritual was to remove the altar from ritual space.
Speaker 1:Yes, to show that we don't need it, but I don't think that that's necessarily the case case that people are using it as an excuse not to do something, I think. I think for a lot of people, and again it goes back to they're doing stuff on their own, so they don't really know.
Speaker 2:I mean they're asking me. I mean, again, there's no such thing as a dumb question. I mean, at least somebody asked it. But to a certain extent you should have been able to figure this out logically, I guess Do I really need an altar? Does the altar really make a difference? Isn't it that person? Because, again, you listen to the books, you read everything, and we all sit here and say it's about a personal connection. Right, I don't know any religion that does not sit there and tell you that.
Speaker 1:Right. I don't know any religion that does not sit there and tell you that. Right, but all the books and stuff tell you you need an altar, you need these tools, you need anathema, you need your candles, you need your incense. All the books tell you this is what you need to practice.
Speaker 2:Again, this is how we perform. Again, we're on the religious side of this. This is what we need to perform our rituals, and blah, blah, blah, but at the end of the day, no, we don't know. All right, and at the end of the day, it's the. It's that whole entire question. You know, if I take all your books and I take all your tools, are you still a witch? You know. You know, if you're a Christian and I take your Bible away and all your churches and your community, are you still a Christian? Right? If you ask the majority of them, they're going to say, yes, you take all my stuff away, I'm still a witch, right? And then that that will never change because it's inside me. It's not the tool.
Speaker 2:Right, you know what? Yes, the tools are nice and again, when you're performing ritual, they're there, they help out, they do certain things, but they're just tools. They're not a means to the end. No, and it bothers me that there are people out there who seem to think that they are required to have these items.
Speaker 1:Well, again I'm back to everything that we read, I mean, even in more modern day books. It's all. You need this, you need that. There's nothing beyond that. There's nothing that says in any of this literature. There's nothing that says what we just said you don't need all of this literature. There's nothing that says what we just said you don't need all of this stuff.
Speaker 2:You don't need any of it Well again, think about the argument over ropes Sky-clad or ropes. The fact is, both are valid. Nobody has said anything. So when I first came up and I was doing my own solitary thing, I did my rituals in silk boxers. Okay, I know there are people in the pagan community that would sit there and look at me going. You did what, Well? I mean and then it's my ritual and my personal space. What does it matter? What does it matter?
Speaker 1:And again, it's whatever you have. If you feel you want to wear something and it's your personal ritual, just wear it.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean yeah or don't I mean, I'm sorry, I am a guy and at the time, you know, going around waving a knife out with everything hanging out just did not seem like a good idea. But even then I still understood to a certain extent that this wasn't necessary, because I saw the contradiction in the two. Do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:yeah, but I don't think everybody puts that. Not everybody can put that connection together.
Speaker 2:Right. Where in the world do you go from robes to? Oh, a robe's just a tool. So again we're starting to what tools I mean? Because in some traditions, all right, like in our traditions, we hold the anthem very sacredly for certain reasons. All right, traditional regions for us, but in other ones it's the one instead. Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And again.
Speaker 2:Nothing wrong with this. So what is the problem? Why do we have to put so much emphasis on all of this stuff that we have?
Speaker 1:to need that, we have to have certain tools Right. The only thing I can keep coming back to is what I've already stated, is that in all the books and everything that we're reading, that's what it says, and people are taking it for what it's worth, and are they missing the parts where I read where in the world they keep on referring to these as triggers?
Speaker 2:and every so often and yeah, vaguely, because I saw those in those books I've read those words. I remember reading those when they talked about tools. I matter of fact, I think it's in the Big Blue Book.
Speaker 1:Oh my Lord, it's been years since I've read that.
Speaker 2:See, for some reason I have that vague mention that in these books they kept on referring to these.
Speaker 1:I'd have to go back because, honestly, in most of the books that I read, it just seemed like this is what you need and there was no. This is a trigger.
Speaker 2:Again, the way they always wrote it was it was kind of like at the beginning then there was like two chapters on all the different tools and what they mean and blah, blah, blah. So I think the problem is is that you get so overwhelmed with the meanings and the purposes of the tools you forget the first part, where we go, or you're just skipping over it, or you're just skipping over it all together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's a possibility, but I really think it. I really think that if at all possible and this is not promoting coven work at all, it's find you a mentor, find you find somebody, find, just, yeah, find somebody who's got a little more experience than you and get them to help you work through things.
Speaker 2:Get them to help you work, and we're talking about somebody.
Speaker 1:Especially if you can't figure it out on your own.
Speaker 2:Well I'm talking about if you're going to do that, make sure it's somebody you actually get to know and it's just not a bunch of 50 different random strangers out on the net.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, absolutely not. No, you want to be able to trust this person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want someone you can build a relationship with and have some confidence in what they're saying. Because, again, you go out on Reddit and all these other, you're going to get some weird answers. I'm sure you are, and you're going to get some answers that contradict one another. But as far as I'm concerned, my whole entire practice. No, the tools are not required to do anything. No, they're not. I'm not even going to sit here and say that you need anything to cast a spell other than yourself. Right, I'll even go that far. You don't need crystals. You don't need jack shit. No, you don't need incense.
Speaker 1:You don't need fire, far you don't need crystals, you don't need jack shit. No, you don't need incense, you don't need fire, you don't need candles, you don't need coins. All you need is the breath in your lungs, right? I mean, really that's all it takes that's all it takes you need, you need that and you need the emotion to put behind it that's it.
Speaker 2:And ritual, and ritual is no different besides where we're aiming that energy.
Speaker 1:So, if you believe that you need something to connect, to pray, to meditate, to commune with you, don't Well, and I'll say this to that extent, you may need it at this time to help you get to that space, but just realize there is more beyond that. And you can work without them.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like we've talked about with meditation. You do meditation long enough, absolutely. You don't have to go through all that rigmarole, rigmarole, yeah, to get yourself into a certain headspace. You don't have to do those colors. Know colors counting, or?
Speaker 1:any of those, whatever it is to get you, whatever it takes to get to your safe space or to your spot where you're in your own head.
Speaker 2:you know you do it long enough and it's sort of like you know I sit down to meditate and I think it takes me like two minutes to get into the and that's me in the middle of freaking yoga. Yeah, I was going to say, if that, I mean I'm standing in the middle of a yoga class with like 20 other people meditating quite happily and, trust me, they're noisy. But again, with practice, with time, it becomes that easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there's nothing else about that, and yeah, I'm going to sit here and say, yes, if I can do it, anyone can do it. I know everybody. I know there's at least 50 people that just rolled their eyes going yeah, yeah, yeah, probably yeah, but it's true. So you ready for some more coffee? Yep.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan coffee talk is brought to you by life temple and seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and reddit we travel, travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire.
Speaker 3:Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres.
Speaker 2:And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till morning breaks.
Speaker 3:And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning.
