Witchcraft, Wicca, Or Paganism?

Is witchcraft just technique, full of crafts and spells, or a full‑fledged religion? We trace the big umbrella of Paganism, the modern lineage and ethics that define Wicca, and the lived reality of witches who cast circles, speak with their gods, and treat the Craft as a way of life.

We discuss differences that we think separate Wicca from witchcraft. This includes the idea of "crafting your religion". It also covers, for us, the idea that witchcraft as religion is lived and the two sides of witchcraft are intertwined and not separate from each other. 

Along the way, we discuss practical spirituality: take the rope when it’s thrown, fix the ditch if your ox falls in every week, and be honest about whether a group truly fits your life. By the end, you’ll have a clearer map of the terrain and language you can use with confidence.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials.

Search Trends: Wicca Vs Paganism Vs Witchcraft

SPEAKER_01 0:25

So when I'm looking for topics, some of the things I the the main three categories I sort of do a search on is witchcraft, paganism, and Wicca. Uh-huh. When I do those, I get different results. Okay. Right. If if you do this search on like YouTube or something, if you do Wicca right now, you're going to see a lot of Christmas Yule arguments. Right. Is it pagan? Is it not? All right. You go to paganism and you'll see a lot of stuff about what to do in the season. And why are you with me? More. Even though they're still talking about the Yule season, they'll talk about rituals and stuff like that. Spellwork, spell work, rituals, things to do, myths, and stuff like that. But if I look up witchcraft, it gets even more broad where it's more of rich. It's still again more ritual and all this, and maybe some spell work and some arguments. So is there a difference between these three things?

Defining Paganism’s Umbrella

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Well, we we looked up some definitions. Yes. It's very broad definitions. Right. These were taken from several sources. And so what we've come up with is that paganism is a is an umbrella term.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yes. And I will agree with that. It is an umbrella term.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

So basically non-Abrahamic religions. Right. Right. Yep. Mostly Earth-based.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Right. I will agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

All right.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Again, they are religions.

What Makes Wicca Modern Pagan Religion

SPEAKER_03 2:05

Right. But it's a it's a it's a just a large umbrella term. Right. So then we look at Wicca. Wicca, everybody knows. Wicca is a modern pagan religion. Religion. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

That comes more for Jerry Gardner and the Gardner tradition. It all right. Now again, I know you got your Alexandrians, again, all extended from this one origin point.

Is Witchcraft Practice Or Religion

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Right. Alright. And then we have witchcraft. Witchcraft, from what we gather, you don't necessarily agree with this. I do not agree with this. That witchcraft is a practice. It is not a religion. And I say bo. And you say bo.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

I believe witchcraft is a religion. Why do you believe witchcraft is a religion? Because we do talk to our gods. We do use these religious practices.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Okay, but that's all part of Wicca.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah, and no, there are certain concepts in Wicca that I don't think the religions of witchcraft follow. Alright? Such as Well, we don't we don't necessarily people in witchcraft don't necessarily follow the Wiccan Reed or the whole Law of Three or this, ooh, you have to be good or are you with me? We we don't necessarily take the people in witchcraft, and I'm using witchcraft as a very broad term, saying there's a lot of different traditions in there.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Kind of like paganism.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Kind of like paganism.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

But then wouldn't you just say paganism?

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Well, you could. But again, paganism also to me incorporates Buddhism, Hinduism. Right. So again, even stuff that's even farther outside of Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Yes, not just the witchy stuff.

Ethics: Wiccan Rede, Threefold Law, Gray Magic

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Not just the witchy stuff. Alright. So again, it also covers those religions too, because they're non-Abrahamic religions.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

And I didn't because I believe which have to w we have a little bit less problems with the whole entire quote unquote black magic thing, because we don't necessarily see black magic as a 100% bad thing all the time.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Yeah, but I think all that falls under the paganism umbrella.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Well again, paganism again is a broad term that covers multiple Yes, but witchcraft is an actual craft. Well again, I mean we're crafting our religion. Oh, that's kind of stretching in my opinion. I mean, is it not true though?

SPEAKER_03 4:51

It is true, but I think I think that's a stretch as far as this is concerned. I mean, I just I I just I don't know. I see witchcraft as which it's the things that you do outside of the religion. It's the spells, it's the actual crafts that you make, you know, whether it be the dream catchers or you know, the jewelry, that's witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yes, but I d let's think about it this way. We both believe that Wicca is more of crafty stuff or witchcraft, whatever you want to call it, plus a lot of these new age concepts.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Well, yeah, that's what it's become.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

That's what it's all right. Where I'm sitting here saying, okay, witchcraft is nothing more than the same thing, but we've stripped out all the new agey stuff. Okay, but as far as of religious belief go, we've all that we went, okay, it's nice that y'all believe in aliens and stuff like this, but we're gonna put this over here. All right. It's not you know, I understand that there's a lot of crossover and a lot of things where people go, yeah, aren't y'all doing the technically, yeah. There's a lot of things we share in common. All right, but then there's a lot of things we don't share in common with Wicca per se.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Right, but I I still see that as part of the pagan Well again, I'm not arguing with you on that.

Religion Versus Craft: New Age Influences

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Of course it's pagan because again, paganism is a broad term, which just talks about all the religions that aren't na Abrahamic. But when we're starting to look at those of us who cast circles and worship in that circle to the gods and all right, the say again, the same things that you see in Wicca that we do, that where we share things in common with them, all right, and then and uh then us stripping out the whole new agey stuff is to me is is witchcraft. It is the religion of witchcraft.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Okay, so technically there's two sides of witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

That's the way I'm looking at it. There's the religious part and then there's a practical part. There is the practical part. I'm not ignoring the practical part. Okay, I'm not saying that we don't do the spells and the charms and the crafting and we don't and that we don't push that stuff in temple. Okay. All right, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that I believe witchcraft has become a religion. It's just this where we don't, we're I hate to be this way, we're a little bit more gray magic. We see things more in grays than we do as black and white, good and evil. Are you with what I'm saying there?

SPEAKER_03 7:45

I guess.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

You know, I I can kind of see that. All right, because I'm just saying, I believe witchcraft itself is starting to turn into a religion in and of itself. I'd sort of say we probably call it that mainly for the lack of any other better word.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

So if somebody so if somebody came up with a new word for it.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Well yeah, and it again, I mean, just like you know, for it caught on, you would use it. Right. Again, d we sort of wanted to try to use the word old guard instead of witchcraft to sort of denounce it as a religion, but trying to get the term old guard to actually stick.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

No has been a good thing. Well, I mean yeah, but we still use it.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

We still use it, but again, it's not ropeally used in society. It's not like people. You know, normally you say that, people look at you go, huh? What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Yeah, and then you have to explain it.

Identity Labels: Pagan, Witch, Old Guard

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Then you have to explain to them, okay, yeah, most people who practice this, yes, we we we believe in, you know, uh the whole entire um initiation. We believe that it is a religion and a practice in the whole nine yards. Well But at the end of the day, it's e it's easier for me to sit there and talk to a non-pagan person and go, yeah, I'm a witch. It's just I practice witchcraft.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Yes. As a religion. And again, it's I just use pagan. It's a lot simpler. You don't get that negative connotation of witch.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

I get the only reason I don't like it because again, it's such a broad term.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

Which makes it perfect for the general public.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

You know. I'm just saying. But I mean, I I don't think the general populace ever sits there and goes, oh, that means you're Buddhist or you're Well, no, they hear pagan, they automatically think witchcraft.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Witchcraft. But again, but the word pagan has a it has less of a negative connotation to it.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Maybe. Well, again, that's why I sort of like the idea of using the word ogard instead of witchcraft, but when we're in the pagan community, we use that term more than we do anything else just to you know than we do anything else to describe if you're gonna ask us what we are. No, we practice witchcraft. We and again, yes, most people think, okay, that's all we're doing is out back Catholic. No, we're a religion.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Well, yeah, I mean, it it comes down to more of this is less of a practice and it's more of a way of life.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Right. And again, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Wicca or the other ones. I'm just trying to denounce distinguish the difference between where I see where I think I see the difference between the two.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Because again, there is this part of this community that that believe just like we do, that there are just certain things and the the whole entire um especially that concept of, you know, that whole, well, we gotta manifest our destiny by because we have to be positive and that's gonna bring pride.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

We don't necessarily Yeah, we don't we don't really follow that thought process.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

You know, when we do believe energy that we send out returns to us, I don't necessarily believe that it's threefold. That it well, not that it's threefold, but is that it always comes back to punish us. Because again, to me that that that starts to bring in that dogmatic or are you with and it brings in that dogmatic stigma that we've tried to get away from.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Because we're trying to eliminate dogma.

Respect, Authority, And Earning Trust

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Well, and it's it's that's the one thing that a lot of people come to paganism for is to get away from the dogma, right? But then they latch on to karma and they latch on to all these other things that re to me reintroduces. Yeah, it does. It reintroduces karma dogma into it.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

So again, witchcraft as a religion, we're we're trying to remove that. We would I guess it would be the question of, you know, would you rather be a person who is just a good person or someone who's forced to be a good person?

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

It's kind of the argument, you know, yeah, I'm gay and I'm working somewhere, I could and they're making rude comments or whatever, even though they're not directed toward me directly, I could go to the HR and go, hey, I'm complaining about this. Right. Then they come in and they force them not to do it.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

Is that really solving the problem?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Is that really solving the problem, or would I rather them not say it because they have more respect for me?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

I I don't know how else to put that. And to me, in witchcraft, that's to us, that's more important. You need to have respect for us for being us.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Right. I was gonna say, as an example, um I worked at a facility. Again, I'm in healthcare.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Right. It's pretty easy in healthcare. I hate to be this way.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

It it is, but it's not it's you gotta understand nurses and techs can be a little off-color sometimes. Okay, a lot off-color. Especially the Bo Ars. And their language. Oh my god, yes. And these are the folks that I work with. Yeah. Um, and I was in the locker room one day and I overheard a conversation between two of the male nurses, and it was if it hadn't been me, somebody else could have reported them to HR for the language they were using towards each other.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

And you know, one of them was gay and one of them was straight, and the straight one was saying some pretty derogatory things.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

And but I assume you could tell they were literally just picking away.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Well, I could, yes. And that they're not really beating they didn't know that I was in there, and he came around the corner and he saw me, and he was like, Oh my god. Um just so you know, this is the com this is how we are with each other. I it wasn't any, and I'm like, dude, it's cool. It's cool.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

It's cool.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

So yeah.

Way Of Life: Practice Beyond Group Rituals

SPEAKER_01 13:48

I again I had I had a boss for 10 years, and me and him had that type of relationship where him, he could sit there and make jokes of me about me being and I wouldn't flinch, but right, but again, it's it's it's the respect issue. Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

When you know, when he came around the corner and he saw me there, yeah, he was a little afraid I was gonna send him to HR. But he already he knew me, he'd already worked with me, and there was a little bit of respect between us. And I th you know that that sort of I would like to believe that that's what played into that, because you know Well again, he's a he's a good guy.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Well, again, here's where I think we practice stuff like this in craft. I mean, we might not blatantly say it, but this is what we see. You know, you you you should respect your priest because you know, you're you're third-degree priest because again, he's reached this status, he's done this this long, and all this other stuff. That I can understand. But then on the other hand, I can also sit there and go, okay, yeah, it can be taken a little bit too far, and I don't think we have that necessarily in Christ.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Well, it it can. And as far as that goes, you know, I'm a firm believer that respect needs to be earned.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You know, if I if I walked into this coven and I said, Hey, I want to be a part of this, and I under and I recognized you as the leader, right, right, and Lady Alba as the heads of temple. Right, I would respect you enough to a point.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Right. And and that I don't mind. And I understand, yes. You you gotta give us time.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Because you never know. You you could be whack jobs, and I'm not gonna respect that.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

We we we could be in there teaching you, we could be in there teaching you how to bless the penis bone of a raccoon.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

You know? I mean Well, that could be fun, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Just saying. Nobody actually knows this joke. Yes, Lord Minn actually got a phone call while teaching a class from somebody who wanted to bless the penis bone so they could curse their curse her husband or something.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Or her boyfriend or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Somebody really weird weird, and uh this is not the proper time for this.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Right. You know, but back to respect is earned. Respect is earned. And I think, you know, to a point you should automatically respect.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

But then, you know, leave leave room for caution. Respect is earned.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

You shouldn't be forced.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

No, no, you never should be forced. It should be something you want to do. Exactly. There's my point. I mean, again, it it's just like the whole oh, conversion, blah, blah, blah. No, you have to come to us. You have to want this.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

We're not gonna be chasing after you.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

No, we're not gonna chase you down in the street with a pamphlet, beat you over the head with it till you come to one of our rituals.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

I'll be honest with you. I mean, most of our classes, if we start out with 10 students, normally before they're even halfway over, we've lost about five.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

We lose about half all the time. Well, and we've lost some before classes even started, so you mean you actually really do expect me to show up for as many rituals as I can? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Yeah, we don't ask a lot of you. We don't. But you know, if you if this is what you want to do, this is the way we operate. I mean, and if you look at the current schedule, we're mainly just showing up for the Sabbaths because all the full moons this upcoming year actually we've got like three or four moons that fall so really close to the Sabbath that we're just gonna skip them.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, I mean, there's just no use in but it just means next year they'll probably all not line up at all. Probably. And that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

I mean, but you know, if you if you know if you're out on your own and you want to do the moon and then do the turnaround the next day and do the Sabbath, more power to you. We're not gonna stop you. We operate as a group, so it's kind of hard to get people together that many times in a row.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Well, I and I I think it's hard to get people to understand is that sometimes in all of this is that's sort of like the expectation. The expectation is that no matter what we're doing as a group, you're at home doing your own personal rituals and practices and prayers and all this other stuff without us. I mean, it's your religion. Should you not be well again practicing that religion all the time?

SPEAKER_03 18:29

We we teach that this is a way of life. Right. And for us it's so ingrained into our life that that's I mean, that's the way we teach. That's the way we believe. Right. We if we didn't believe it, we wouldn't have allowed it to be ingrained.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

You know, I mean, every year, right around spring, you see me buy honey and milk, mix them together and go sh out in the garden. Bless the bless the gardens and all this other stuff. I'd I'd do it every year. Yeah. And don't think twice about it. And I'm not saying I'm the best farmer ever, but it's not like we have, you know, ten acres to farm either.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

So God, I wish.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Anyway, I ain't got the money for that. Is it are there any other differences that you think there may be? Is there any other reasons why in the world you would consider witchcraft or craft not to be a religion in and of itself?

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Um, well, I mean, it's since you've since you've put it in that framework, I can't see why it couldn't be considered a religion.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

I just never thought about it that way because for me it was all about this is the stuff I do outside of my religious life.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Or out of outside of the religious part of my life.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

It well, it makes my state statement even I think it makes my statement even more that we're crafting our religion.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

It makes it it makes it a little less cringe worthy for me to say that when you think about it this way.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Yeah, that and also it it it correlates to that our religious life is part of our daily life. Right. It's something we live. Right. And so therefore I mean it it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Well, I mean I'm not gonna sit there and say every tradition has this. But again, our thought is is that we put our religion first. And by doing that, if we had there's a concept that I keep that we keep on talking about in temple where if your spiritual life is in order, we actually believe the rest of your life follows. Because if you can get that down, if you can get your religious and spiritual life down and follow those ethics and morals and do this stuff, you become a better on the other end.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

All the other stuff don't seem as important as you thought it was.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Well then it doesn't seem so chaotic, it doesn't seem so you know drama filled, it doesn't it's just easier. It's just easier. It's like everything falls into place. So now does that mean you're not gonna have hardships? No.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

No, no, you're always gonna have hardship.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

There's always again There's always gonna be something.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

I mean, w we honestly believe that, you know, we you should hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

At other times. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Kind of like kind of like that old joke where there was a flood, and there was a guy in the middle of the flood second, the dam was gonna break, and the water starts to rise, and I he's he's keeps on praying, Lord, please help me, help me, you know, save me. A truck, a big old eight, big old truck comes by with the big tires, go, come on, get down in. And he's like, Nope, Lord will save me.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Then a little while later, it gets a little bit higher, and he's on the second floor of his house, and a boat comes by and said, Come on, let's go. And the guy's like, Nope, the Lord will save me.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Then he's finally on his roof, and he's like, and a helicopter comes by, go, okay, now you need to come up. You that we we can't play this game. They're throwing down a ladder and everything. Ladder, everything, and he's like, Nope, won't go. The Lord will save me. He winds up dying and going to heaven. Looks at the Lord and goes, Well, why didn't you come save me? I sent a truck. I sent a damn boat, I sent a freaking helicopter. I can't make you get in. What else did you want me to do? What else did you expect me to do? To me, this is this this illustrates sort of the logic where I see a part of that's in part of this witchcraft religion.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

All right. I mean, I don't know how else to explain it. It is is a very practical religion, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah.

Attendance, Commitment, And Fit

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because we we we still use the whole entire thing, you know. If your ox falls in a ditch on Sunday, get your ox out. If your ox falls in the ditch every Sunday, either fill in the ditch or kill the ox. You know, and again, we normally do that in relation to getting people to show up for ritual.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

You know, we understand things happen and all that you should still try. And I don't have a problem with that. You know, emergencies happen and you have to be at the places. But really? Every full moon? Every Sabbath?

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Yeah. If that's the case, yeah, something's wrong and you need to figure out what it is and fix it. So I or you need to realize maybe this isn't the path for you.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Maybe? I don't know. Anything else you'd like to discuss on this? I think that's about it. Alright, let's go get some coffee. Let's get some coffee.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pegan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at Life Temple Seminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media: Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

We travel down this trodden path, a maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres, and so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning.