Navigating Ethics in Online Craft

This episode dives into the often‑ignored ethics of online pagan spaces, exploring how anonymity, ego‑feeding, and digital distance distort honest spiritual dialogue. The hosts discuss how online communities—podcasts, Discord groups, and digital covens—can unintentionally encourage ego narratives rather than grounded craft practice: “there’s a certain anonymity… and it allows people to say things they wouldn’t normally say”.  This highlights how tone, intent, and accountability get lost in text‑based communication.

They also examine the responsibilities of creators and community leaders, emphasizing honesty over placation and substance over aesthetics. Instead of feeding into fantasies of being “special,” they argue for direct, reality‑based guidance: “No, you’re not possessed, you’re not cursed… the rules work for you just like they do everybody else.” The conversation expands into boundaries, commercialization, and the pressure some creators feel to overshare personal details to maintain engagement. Ultimately, the hosts advocate for ethical leadership, non‑commercialized teaching, and preserving traditional craft by prioritizing integrity, clarity, and real‑world wisdom over online performance.

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Transcript

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Welcome And Quick Housekeeping

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Welcome to Peggy Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Alright, so here's a topic that I found kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

So there's been a, you know, there's quite a few online communities and pagan communities and pagan groups and pagan covens and things like that, right? Yep.

Online Anonymity And Pagan Ego

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Let's talk about ethics in the digital world. Lord.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Okay. Well, I mean, are there any or the same ethics that we practice in our regular religion should show through on these podcasts? I'm sorry, if you're not going to sit there and tell somebody to their face something, why in the world are you going to tell it to them online?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Let's face it, being online and being behind a keyboard instead of face to face creates all sorts of anonymity.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

There's a certain anonymity, there's a certain security there. And it allows people to say things they wouldn't normally say.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Or go down paths that they normally wouldn't go down, or right. Because again, you yeah. Well, again, we have a problem in the pagan community about people feeding into ego narratives. Right. Uh the majority of the times, all right. This person's special for this reason, this person's special for that reason. These rules don't apply to this person for this reason, which I I'm sorry, I consider all bullshit. Well, I do too, but I mean, how come and you know and again I I feel like this is nothing more than than the online community feeding into people's ego.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Because again, I hate to be this way with my problem with the internet and even what we're doing on the podcast, there is a bit of anonymity here. I it's not like I'm gonna meet these people that listen to us on a regular basis to sit there and question me when I give them an answer that they might not particularly like.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Right. I mean, it's it's not like we like, you know, like you and I have millions upon millions of listeners, and you know, we could potentially run into somebody going to the grocery store who listens to the show.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Right. And and wants to take everything we say so seriously or whatever, to the point to where everything's a sign and everything indicates that they're somehow special and feedback to that ego. I think that's a different Well again, there's my problem with the online community. When we look at online communities and stuff like that, that's really all I see from these podcasters and stuff is that they're not really talking about the actual ethics and working of craft. They're too busy feeding into everybody's ego and making them feel special.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Right. But I'm also talking to like groups like on Discord, the online covenants.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Again, the the same thing's happening there is people feeding into the ego of other people to make themselves feel important.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

All right.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Instead of being honest with people, okay, no, you're not possessed, you're not cursed. The rules work for you just like they do everybody else. But again, I keep on sitting there going, oh, there's always an exception. What are you talking about? Either the rules function for everybody or they don't function for nobody.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

So how do we avoid all of that?

SPEAKER_03 3:49

By us being honest with ourselves, by those people out there doing the podcasts, claiming to be teachers, taking a moment going, well, maybe the rules apply to all of us the exact same way. And if they don't apply to us in the same way, then that means we might have gotten the rule wrong and not the concept of it. There's my whole problem with the online community. Because again, there's no real physical presence. There's no physical presence there. There's no real interaction, it's just half-guesses and pop culture when you're counseling people and not real worldly stuff that actually helps.

Vetting Teachers And Group Leaders

SPEAKER_01 4:34

All right. Well, I mean, can you know, can we give can we give anything that people who are looking to get involved with these communities, can we give them any pointers, any suggestions to help navigate the ethics of that? Well, again, I I would say like ask your ask your questions. What qualifies this person? What qualifies this person to be to be my leader?

SPEAKER_03 4:56

Right. What what qualifies this person for me to listen to them and what they're saying, besides I like them, I like their voice and all the aesthetics, and they're saying what I want to hear.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Are you with me? Because again, it's not about what we want to hear, it's what we need to hear. All right. So again, and and I'm not really knocking all well, and I am, but I'm not at the same time, because again, we're back to we could easily do, we could easily do podcast on the 50,000 different ways to do a damn jar spells, sure. And have listeners out the yin game because that's what in the world people want. Or we can actually do podcast on the actual ethics and morals of craft and how it actually works.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Which is a little bit harder to do. We have to hold ourselves there. There is nothing there to hold us there. We do not have dogmatic philosophy like certain religions that require us to, we have to do it out of want, not out of need.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Right. Well, I think there's um I think there's also another danger to that is, you know, the whole guilt by association type thing where you might say something or somebody in your group might say something, then you are automatically tied into that regardless of what it may be.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Well, I hate to be this way. I see this a lot in multiple communities.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Oh, sure, yeah. Okay, yeah, this is not just pagan community.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

No, this ain't just pagan. All right, but I'm gonna say it's a little bit more standout and pagan because there are some pagan practices out there that require certain requirements. Okay. I I'm not gonna sit there and pretend like they don't freaking exist. Yes, there are certain places, yes, that require you to be white and to be European and blah, blah. And that's great for them. All right. They they can practice whatever they want. But at the end of the day, who am I to judge that?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

And I don't mean that mean, but I know, but the the way I look at it is is if you're gonna be involved in that type, if you're the leader, you're still ultimately responsible for the actions and things of your online group.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Okay, but I'm gonna put it to you this way. Then does that mean does that not does but again it's the same logic. It's like me assuming that PTL is every TV evangelist.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Are you with me?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

That's fair.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

All right. I again, it's the same logic there. So you want me to assume that all pagan people are the exact same way and going to the case.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

No, no, that's not that's not what I was trying to say. Um but you understand how in the world that slippery slope I do, but that's not what I was trying to say.

Leading A Discord With Clear Rules

SPEAKER_01 8:00

I basically I'm just saying that like so like we have a Discord for the for the podcast. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

We are technically specific here. We have a Discord for the podcast, and we also have a Discord for temple, which you have to be invited to.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Right, but I'm not I'm talking about the just for the podcast. It's it's it's our little online pagan community, right? Right. We are ultimately the leaders of this online community.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Right. And we set up certain rules that we expect the folks to follow.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

We are ultimately responsible for maintaining those rules and enforcing those rules.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Okay. So I think I think what it boils down to is as leaders, you're gonna have to navigate these relationships very carefully.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Right, and it's just because I mean where do you allow somebody not to say something?

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Well, here's my point is in the online community, there's certain things I will allow that I would not allow in person, and that's because of the disconnect online.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Or are you with what I'm saying? To where if I was there in front of you and was hearing you, I might shut you down in five seconds flat because I know where in the world it's going. Unlike I'm reading online, I'm I'm reading something online. Okay, well, let's be more specific for me. I'm gonna have the computer read it to me. Right. So I have to wait to hear it all before I can react.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Well, and then too, I think.

Text Misreads Tone And Intent

SPEAKER_03 9:48

And even then, it still doesn't quite illustrate always what in the world the person's thinking because there's a lot of times I write stuff and I think in pictures, but trying to translate those pictures into English does not always go well.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, and I well, and I was gonna say, I mean, I remember, you know, the advent of email and chat rooms and things like that where it was all text-based, and that started a whole torrent of misunderstandings and and this and that, because like you said, it's not an in-person thing, and you can't always tell the tone of somebody's words because it's all just written down.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Well, again, the difference between capital letters and lowercase letters, capital letters, everybody's yelling. Really? Or did they just screw up and hit the wrong button?

SPEAKER_01 10:39

I was gonna say, you know how many times I hit the caps lock and didn't realize it until I done sent the message? Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

But there's my point. So you're not actually yelling, you're just a wrong key flick.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

And it happens. So again, assuming content, uh, intent on based on the way somebody's does not translate well.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Because again, if I'm in a bad mood when I read something, I'm gonna put that mood into what I'm reading to some extent. Sure, yeah. You know, especially if it's an email.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

True.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

All right. I mean, again, I don't do this on a book where I'm sitting there reading a book and there's a love scene going, yeah, yeah. It it doesn't suddenly become something else because there's the context there. But in stuff like emails and texts, I can see how that gets disgraced.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

And especially if it's from somebody that you're having you're already having an issue with. Thank you. You're going to inflect that into their written words. Exactly. It's just it's human nature, it's what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Exactly. Even though it was sent not being harpy or blah, blah, blah. I'm gonna read it that way because that was the last interaction me and that person had. Right. And I think it's just them still being harpy on something that where it's not.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

So again, where do you where do you draw the line?

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

You have to figure that out, and it's it's something that we deal with all

Truth Over Placating Listeners

SPEAKER_01 12:11

the time.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

And and and again, I still have to deal with if I'm running a podcast and I have listeners emailing me and asking me questions and I'm directing them. Am I gonna want to placate to them so they'll keep on listening, or am I gonna tell them the truth?

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Are you are you with me in saying we won't just do that?

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Well, again, I know we I know I won't, all right? And I know you won't. We're not those type of people, but yet I've sort of seen this on the podcast where they sort of play to the person that's making the comment, regardless of what in the world they actually believe.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

And I I find that dishonest.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Well, yeah, I do too.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

And I and that's where in the world I have a problem with online ethics and stuff like this, is can we be honest? All right, do we really have to kiss everybody? Are you with me? And I don't mean that mean, but do we really have to kiss everybody's ass?

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

I mean, because I again we do these podcasts, I'm not really worried about if you like me or you don't, or you like what I say. Here's what I believe, and this is why.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Either you analyze it or you tell me to go fuck myself. I don't mean w what else do you want? I mean, because again, this is what I want to do to you. Either I'm gonna stop listening to you and walk away, or I'm gonna keep on listening to you. Right. I'm not gonna listen to somebody I hate. No, of course not. That makes no sense to me. No.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

That's just rage bait. That's what that is.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

I'm sorry. I have better things in my life to be mad at besides stupid stuff. Oh Lord, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But again, the this is my problem with the online ethics, is it's so easy to be flipping. It's easier to feed into other people's egos. Right. Instead of being honest with them. No, you're not possessed, no, you're not cursed, you're just making dumb decisions. Right. There's my problem. And that's what I see a lot in the pagan community in all of this, is they're not giving hard answers. It's always placating to the person's. I see that.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

I see that outside of the online communities too. So, I mean, that that kind of thing could like breach the boundary again.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

To me, I just I see it more on the online community because I'm too busy, don't want to hurt someone's feelings than to sit there and go, no, you're not special.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

No, karma wor if you believe in karma, karma works on you just like it does everybody else in the world.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Right, and you can't block it.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

You can't block it, you're not special, you're not unique. Right. It doesn't but yet every podcast I listen to feeds straight into that ego.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

There are a lot, there, there are a lot that do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

And I don't mean that mean, but there's where my ethics on this diverge from everybody else's, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Right.

Privacy Boundaries For Creators

SPEAKER_01 15:18

That kind of ties into maybe not. Um like privacy boundaries. Like as creators, okay, I guess technically we're creators. I guess. Um it's so weird to say that. I it really is. Um like us being influencers. Right. Well, we're certainly not influencers. We don't influence. No, we don't influence anybody. Um, but as I guess as digital creators, um I see lots of people on YouTube and you know, I hear other podcasts and things like that, and eventually somewhere down the line, they feel like they have to start sharing more personal information to keep the listeners or the watchers connected so that they keep following the podcasts. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Well, I and I have to ask the question Does that mean that your depth of the occult and of witchcraft philosophy is lacking so much you have to bring your personality in there?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Maybe. I don't know. Or well, I mean, maybe it's just like personal experiences and they keep getting more and more personal. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

I have a dog, we hear the dog, but we never refer to the dog because again, what does that have to do with craft?

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Per se. I are you are you with what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah, but I'm just saying I see a lot of this, and I think I think that's an unethical breach.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

I don't want to say it's an unethical breach. I think it's an unnecessary thing. I do not need again when I'm listening to a podcast, I don't care about your cat.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

I don't care that they're they're there and I'm here. You you I read the the title of this, which said, hey, I'm gonna talk about this. True, yeah. And instead I'm going on there and listening to you talk about your cat for five minutes. Right by not listening.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Because that's not what I'm there for. I'm there for what in the world was in the title.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Right. But I'm just saying, I just you know, I don't know why people choose to do that. I don't think you really need to do that.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Well, see, I don't I don't think people choose. I think people actually I think there are people out there that actually ask those questions.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

And so they think they need to answer those questions?

SPEAKER_03 17:43

So they think they need to ask, answer them. I we have well again, we've never been asked that question before because we don't get feedback like that. No, we don't. All right. I mean, the feedback we get is kind of more precise. They want us to talk about a certain subject, or they want us when we do get feedback, or they have a specific question about something we said in a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

We rarely get, hey, what was your dog's name?

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

You know.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I think if you're gonna be a creator, if you're gonna be a quote unquote influencer, just keep your personal life out of it. I d I'm I'm the same way. I'm keep keep that boundary, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 18:37

Well again, w we're here to talk about traditional craft.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Right. We're not here to talk about our garden or we're not here, no, you know, our bills or whatever else. Everybody's got bills, who fucking cares?

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Or our pets or anything else.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

I mean, I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand that over the time, you know, I've referred to you as my husband, we're married, and that's just to keep people understanding the dynamic where we're talking, and but I'm not gonna sit here and spend five minutes talking about the dog.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

And having everybody say, Right. Is not the point. Did y'all not come to this to listen to occult and witchcraft philosophy from a traditional point of view? Absolutely. Well, yeah, I mean, that's the whole point of being here. That's the whole point. That's what what we're talking about. So again, uh ethics and morals, this I'm I'm with you on this. Does this really does this promote the craft? Does this promote the religion?

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Does this preserve craft in itself, which is our ultimate goal, is to preserve craft and then pass it on to the next generation.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Right.

Money And Commercialized Spirituality

SPEAKER_01 19:57

And I guess that leads into the next question or statement or area of concern is commercialization of spiritual practices.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

So help me, if I see another Kitchwitchery book, I'm gonna throw it across the room.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

I mean, it's great if you want to publish your books and stuff, but I just I don't know. I worry that like we don't we don't monetize the podcast. No. Right? So even on YouTube, we don't make any money off of that. No, we don't, you know, we don't allow the commercials.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Go on to say that even if we had enough listeners to monetize, we wouldn't no, we wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Um and I think that's our effort to keep it non-commercial, commercialized.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

But well again, and I'm gonna sit here and state this, there is a part of our belief that a gift to the she cannot be property of the she already, and which this refers to knowledge, and how in the world do you price that knowledge?

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

You know, I don't understand it, so so there there is something, and and I'm I'm stating this out right now, it is there is something in our tradition that basically says we're really not allowed to charge for information or classes specifically. Right, no, absolutely. All right.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

So again, this is not every tradition, so no, but I'm just I'm just saying with with the digital age, YouTubers the more the more followers you get, the more opportunity you get to make money.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

So that means commercials and well again you have that gatekeeping by price tag.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yes and no. I mean, like with YouTube, it it's not really you don't pay to subscribe to somebody.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 21:54

With most of them YouTube channels, the majority of the time to get the quote unquote real information

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Oh yeah. Subscribe to my Patreon. Whatever else it is.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Which money comes involved and now you're paying for information. Right. Again, in our tradition, we're not allowed to do that. Right. Again, I'm not saying that these other traditions are wrong for doing it. I'm just saying we are not allowed to do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

I I I want to make that extension. So that's why in the world we're kind of against it. Right. So but I can't sit there and say it's a standard of all pagan dreams.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

No, it's not. It's not. You know, and if that's what you choose to do, then more power to you.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

More power to you. I'm not going to be paying for it.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Right. And so then I guess sort of what we talked about earlier, well, one of the topics we talked about earlier.

Handling Conflict And Choosing To Leave

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Handling conflict online. This is always an issue because you got like us, we we have our, you know, our Discord. I have issues with other, and I'm not pretending like we've never Right, but I'm just saying, you know, when you're when you have an online community, you gotta understand you got people from all walks of life that are coming into this, right? Yeah. You need people to be respectful. It's easy because of one, no physical interaction. Two, you can't hear what they're saying. No. Or how they're saying it.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

No.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

So yeah, when there is conflict, you gotta be able to, you gotta be able to stop it. And if it you know, like us, we don't usually step in. We we let them go. If it looks like it's getting out of hand, that's when we step in and be like, hey.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Well again, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend there are like two influencers I know we have called out in the past specifically. Yeah. Again, there were specific reasons for calling them out with the conversations we were having. So again, that's not Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah, but I think other other than that, just you know just keep an eye on it and use your everyday ethics.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Oh God, for me.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

You know it shouldn't be that difficult.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

If you don't support somebody and you don't like them, then unsubscribe from their quit listening to them. Thumbs them down when they do show up. I sitting there and hate watching just the hate watch is weird to me. Yeah. You know, what why do you want why do you want to spend 30 minutes of your life just being pissed because you don't like what I have to say? Nah, I don't know why you would do that. I don't makes no sense to me. I'd rather go watch anime I'd rather not like.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

I'd rather go drink a cup of coffee. Ooh, coffee?

SPEAKER_03 25:02

You say coffee.

Closing Thanks And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pegan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at Life Temple Seminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media: Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a steel blazing fires, and so it is the end of our days, to walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning.