Training Clergy for Real‑World Issues

In this episode, we explore the real‑world responsibilities of pagan clergy and coven leaders, focusing on conflict resolution, ethical judgment, and the boundaries of spiritual counseling. Drawing from decades of experience, the hosts discuss why disagreements inevitably arise in groups, how emotions can escalate small issues, and why leaders must plan for conflict before it happens. They emphasize the importance of listening, maintaining decorum, and recognizing when a situation goes beyond spiritual guidance and requires professional mental‑health support.

The conversation also dives into the dangers of creating dependency through claims of curses, possession, or overly mystical explanations. Instead, the hosts highlight personal responsibility, accountability, and the role of elders in helping practitioners navigate crises of faith, ethics, and interpersonal challenges. They explain how coven laws and shared values guide fair decision‑making—especially when disputes disrupt the group and threaten the temple’s purpose.

Ultimately, this episode centers on the oath every priest and priestess takes: the preservation of craft. From setting boundaries to removing disruptive members, the hosts show how leadership requires difficult choices rooted in service, integrity, and the long‑term health of the tradition.

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Transcript

Welcome And Support The Show

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to Fake and Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. So in the past, we've briefly, well, not briefly, but sort of, uh, we've talked about um how to, as priests and priestesses of Wicca, paganism, whatever big path you follow, we are especially when you're dealing with groups, we are responsible for making tough decisions and judgments and handling discrepancies and disputes and things like that, right? Right. So let's let's revisit this and maybe provide a little a little different perspective on what that's like. Yeah, and what that's like and you know what it entails and and you know wherever else the conversation takes us.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Alright.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

So I guess I guess we start with why why do we have to do this?

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Well, first of all, you got people. That's why. Right. Right? I mean, not everybody gets along all the time. I mean, let's let's be honest, me and you've been married for 30 something years. How well do we get along all the time? Not all the time, no. There's a special relationship there.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

This isn't just are you with me? Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's a group where you know you've you you come together with a group of people once, maybe twice a month. Right. Right.

Rules And Boundaries Prevent Blowups

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Right. So again, if me and you don't get along again, what what do you think about a group of people that doesn't come along and get it together once or twice a month? Right. Right. To not plan for issues is an issue in and of itself.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

It is, it is, you know, it's I mean, it's it's one reason, you know, it's we we set rules and we set boundaries for our for our functions, and that's part of that effort to kind of keep a certain uh decorum between practitioners and visitors and whoever else may be there.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah. You know, her her feelings can sour a mood real fast because of something stupid. So boy, can they ever you know, and again and and people have a tendency to take things out of context, and well, when it first happened, it's the end of the world. Three months later, it might not be nothing more than a puddle.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Right. But by then it's too late, the damage is done, and exactly. You know, it's uh you know, once the event is spoiled or the emotion is spoiled, you you can't go back and change it.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

No. To sit there and to assume that these things do not somehow magically do not happen in covens you're fooling yourself.

Spiritual Counseling Is Not Therapy

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Right. Well, and and I think I think one of the key ingredients to to handling this and and being a good um judge, I guess for lack of a better word.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Is knowing well one, knowing your area of expertise.

unknown 3:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Knowing when to say this goes beyond my scope.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Right. There's a point in our training, especially when we're talking about counseling, that we literally have to look at our people going, look, you're not therapist. Don't pretend to be one. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Well it's beyond your Yeah, and that's exactly where I was heading into this is counseling. I mean, this is like the big the big thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, you know, this is what people expect. I mean they come to us with their problems, they expect an answer or something.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

But you know, there's a very big difference between spiritual counseling and therapy. Right. We're not here to be your therapists.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Well, we're we're not trained to be therapists, we're trained to be to be priests and priestesses of the religion, not counselors.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Well, when I say well, when I say counseling, it's it's right. We do deal with uh certain things, but it's but it's more like advice. It's more like um it's on the spiritual side of things, it's not the physical or the mental. No. Those aren't things that we are trained to deal with.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

To deal with, right. I it's I'm not trained to deal with your bipolar, you know. If you're bipolar, it's not my job to deal with that. It's I'm not trained for it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

I can refer that to someone who can.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Who's more qualified than me? Right. Who's well to handle this, yeah, to handle this type of situation. Yeah. It's getting priests and priestesses to understand that. That's you know, we and that's the hard part, is it always starts off nice. All right. You you want to be helpful, you want to be that person to go in there and help. And when you sit there and you're doing that and it is someone with a problem, people get kind of upset when you stick their noses into other people's business.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Absolutely. And it's not make it even worse. This doesn't always happen with the individual. Sometimes it's family members.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

What do you mean my son should go seek counseling or I should take him to the emergency room to have him put in for 24-hour observation? What do you mean you're telling what?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Right. How dare you? We are not licensed to make those decisions. Don't step over that line.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Unless you're medically trained to do the whole detox thing, you don't want to do this in your house. You can hurt somebody, you can kill people.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Yeah, detox is not a very pretty thing. And it's it's difficult, and it, you know, it requires a lot of observation, it requires a lot of things that we're just not trained to do.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

No. And I'm not going to sit there and train my people to pretend like they could even do this.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

No, of course not.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

You know, that that's not fair to those for counseling and that are coming to us for our knowledge and wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Right. Yeah, most of the things that you're going to be dealing with as far as counseling goes, it's going to be like grief, fear, some type of spiritual crisis.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Uh it's going to be a crisis of faith. It's going to be there may be some depression in there and stuff like that, but it's like it will always be linked back to our faith and our religion, not absolutely, yes. All right. Uh, more people would I I think I've done more counseling on ethics and morals than I have doing that whole how you how should you treat other people as a pagan versus something else. I right. Those are more of the counseling I've ever done.

The Danger Of Curses And Dependency

SPEAKER_01 8:04

And it also pays to be a good listener when you're doing all of this as well. I mean, because when you're dealing with those type of situations, like you just mentioned, people above anything else, they just need somebody to listen to them.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yes. But majority of the times, we're in the world, I think most priest and priestesses like myself normally get in trouble is when we're too when someone's too fast to sit there going, no, you're cursed, or no, you're possessed. Oh, no, somebody put a spell on. This is where it gets us more in trouble than anything else.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Yeah, that's that's that's a dangerous line, as far as I'm concerned. That's you know, that's like creating dependency. And I don't really want anybody to be dependent on me, you know, in that sense.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

It's the whole entire concept of you're looking for zebras when it should be horses. Right. All right. This is when a priest or priestess really does need to look at somebody going, no, I really think you need to seek out therapy. This, this, what's going on here is beyond me. This this is not possession, this is a psychotic break.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Right. This yeah, Rhea, this is going beyond something uh a spiritual matter.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Right. But there's my point of you know, people have a tendency to want to do that, they want it to be the more fantastic. Well, of course they do, of course they do, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

That's it, could they want a good story to tell, you know?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Trust me, it's easy to fall into that. Ooh, you're cursed with every reading you give. How else are you gonna keep them coming back, you know?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Well, like I said, that that creates that sense of dependency, right? And that's you know, honestly, that's not something that I want. I want I want people to come to me for you know advice or whatever else, but they should be independent people. That's our goal here is to create independent people who can handle a lot of things, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Over the years, I mean, I have complained that I'll sit here and give people advice just to watch them ignore me.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

And I and I think they ignore me because the advice I give them is just too mundane. It's just too or are you with me? It's not that mystical magical thing. So, therefore, since this is a simple mundane thing of I don't know, making a schedule, right, and sticking to it, why am I gonna listen to you? Yours is boring. I can go over here and listen to this, you know. Hey, I'm possessed by a fairy.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

There you go, yeah. Sprinkle this fairy dust and it'll get rid of all your problems.

Accountability And Mundane Solutions

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah, we get rid of all my problems and the whole nine yards. And well, it's in there, there's our problem here is when we look at our tradition, one of the things, one of the big things that we teach is that we are all the source of our own problems the majority of the time. Right. That's not me sitting here saying bad stuff don't happen to people, all right? Right. Bad stuff happens. We know it does. Our reaction to it is what I'm talking about. How we handle it, what we do, and that we don't take any biases from an event like that and put it onto someone or a different situation. Right. We're really don't belong.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Yeah, that's you know, that's that that's having some accountability for right for for what you've done and what you haven't done.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Right. Like I said, I'm not going to sit there and shame anybody because they've had something bad happen to them or done to them. The majority of the times when I talk to people, they are the source of their own problems. And they want to do that typical, they want to do the same thing and expect a different outcome.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah, and we all know that's you know the definition of insanity. So we've all been insane a few times in my in our lives, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Yeah, I think that was called my twenties. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

But you know, that's that's also that right there is why elders and teachers are still important in modern paganism because they can help you get past all of that and give you the tools you need.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

All right. I mean, because the majority of us are not telling y'all anything new. No. We we I've heard it a thousand times. No, this is not the first time you'll fall in love. No, it's not. Right. This advice is out there and it's repeated over and over again because it's true. And you only don't believe it because you're young.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Right. Well, you know, sometimes you just have to hear it from somebody else, you know, somebody that you perceive to be, I don't know, in a better position than you, or uh somebody on a higher that you perceive being at a at a higher level of vibration or whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

I didn't know we we've seen that behavior too. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I I friend of mine came over, asked me a question. I gave him an answer. Lord Min came over, he asked Lord Min the same question a couple of weeks later. Lord Min gave him the exact same answer, and he was like, ooh, revelations. Yep. What was the difference?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Nothing. Except I was a little old right, first degree, third degree. Right. Same answer.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah, you know, and that's that's something you gotta factor into all of this as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Right. Uh people people do stuff like that all the time and don't realize what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

You know, but now that being said, you know, people are gonna say, well, what does counseling have to do with making a judgment? Well, it has a lot to do with it because having some knowledge of counseling enables you to see different sides of the story.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Right. When most people come to me and they're like, they're wanting counseling, especially if it's more personal or couples counseling. It just winds up being me. Well, did you could your partner have felt this? Could your partner have thought this? Could your partner have thought A, B, C, D? Me just going down this long list. And the reason this works so well, I'm not that partner. I'm not the one you're emotionally mad at. Oh. So I get to be a substitute and do the logic part of that conversation with you, taking the other half out of the equation. I'm not really solving a problem. I'm just sitting here going, they could have been thinking this, this, this, that.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Well, and honestly, that's why that's why we encourage those who are going for their second degree to go to a counselor. Oh, god, yes. Kind of experience it from you know, from the from the one who's needing counseling's perspective and observe the counselor, it's kind of a twofold thing. You might get might actually uncover something that you haven't dealt with and they're able to help you, but by the same token, you're taking notes on the counselor.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Right. Their methods, how they get people to open, how how to how to ask really good open-ended questions that encourage people to talk.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Right. So, you know, it's a process for sure, but that's why we encourage that is because it helps. It helps understand that process.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Trust me, there's nothing wrong with going to go seek a little bit of therapy every so often.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Absolutely not. Even if you think you're the sanest person in the world.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

We say that, but that also means sometimes some people don't need therapy all the time. No. Don't think of this as just a, oh, I'm gonna have to go therapy for the rest of my life. You may have to go for three months. Wait a little while, then go back, you know, a couple of years later, go for another three months. That is just as acceptable as if you have to go once a week. At least you're trying to do something. At least you're trying to are are you with me? The effort there is probably more important than anything else sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Right. But now, if we're dealing with you know, disputes or we're dealing with a problem within the coven, something else that we refer to are the laws and our ethics. Right. Yes. These are laid out for us, you know, in our material and we use those to help us make a proper judgment.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Right. We we normally use the well what is it, the new book of the law?

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Which is based off of Lady Sheba's book of the law.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Right. It all comes back to personal responsibility though. Right. You know, whatever this issue is, we expect that whoever is involved, whether it's one person or two people or three people, ever we expect everybody to take responsibility for what they've done or haven't done, or what they've said or haven't said.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Well, we we tell the majority of people is if you have an issue with somebody else in temple, you need to take care of that. That's your responsibility between y'all two to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Right. When we step in is when you can't fix it. Right. If y'all can't work it out, then we'll stop. We will. Yeah, we will.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

And that's what and that's where those judgments come in that make everybody kind of like look at us sideways because the majority of the times, if we have two groups or two individuals that fight against each other like that, we're gonna probably look at both parties and go, bye. Right. Is not believing one over the other. Is y'all two were supposed to work it out yourselves and not involve anybody else. Right. You didn't do it, so we're now gonna remove both of y'all from the situation.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Right, because at that point, you've not only involved whoever it is you've got a dispute with, but you've involved the rest of the group. Because words are gonna get around. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

So now you've created gossip, now you've created drama, and now we have to do something because everybody's concentrated more on this drama than they we are on our religious. Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

And I'm sorry, we are not a social club.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

No, we we are a religion, we we come together to worship.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Do we have our social moments? Of course we do, but that's not our primary focus.

unknown 19:09

No.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

By removing both, I hope everybody understands how in the world I believe that's like the most fairish thing to do. And yes, if we had a group of three people doing this, yes, we would probably tell all three to go, there's the door.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Right. And honestly, I and it to me, that's not only fair, but that's that's also ethical. Because we're not picking sides. Nope. We're not making a judgment of who was right, who was wrong.

Preservation Of Craft As The North Star

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Nope. Our judgment and everything was based on one simple concept: the preservation of craft. Right. What does it take to keep this temple up and running no matter what?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Mm-hmm. And that is ultimately what matters to us.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Right. So again, all the judgments we make lead us back to this one goal. Right. If you got a problem with that, this is what you're fighting. If you're going to try to come in and tell us something different, or are you with me on doing this? This way is this is what you're fighting is how does doing it any other way preserve craft?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Because ultimately that's what it comes down to. When when we take our oaths, one of the without breaching any right, one of the things that we pledge is the preservation of craft.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

And if we can't do that, then what are we even doing?

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Well, what was the well, if you can't do that, what was the point of taking the oath in front of the gods? Right. How seriously are you taking that oath if that's not your primary? If that's not every temple's primary concern, that we preserve each and every single tradition the way it was created, and and keep on working toward the future. What was the point of it all? Right. What was the point of the fighting? What was the point of going to the courts and battling to go, no, we're not some bunch of weirdos out here just you know killing babies and blah blah blah blah blah. We actually have a belief system.

Teaching A Way Not The Way

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah. Yeah. That's what this is all about, folks. You know, it's preserving a belief system, and I don't care what branch you practice or anything else, none of that matters. The fact is we're preserving, we're preserving a religious belief system.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Right. We teach a way, not the way. Right. We've always stated that, we will always state that. And again, that's the main thing about paganism. I think I really like the best is this whole entire thought that we all teach a way and not the way. Nobody knows the way.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Right. And honestly, I've come to believe. That there is no the way. Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

I I don't think there's the way like we're thinking of it. No. I I do not believe there is no one religion that encompasses everything or anything like that. Not in the way we think of religion.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Right. No, I I would agree with that statement.

Plan Ahead With A Clear Foundation

SPEAKER_02 22:24

So it's just religion to me is just too big to be confined to one tradition. Yeah. To a certain extent. You know, I have to admit, no, we're not living like we did in the old days where our religion was our lives. I I hate the fact that we separate them up nowadays, but Yeah, me too. These are some of these judgments. This is some of the stuff that third degrees have to learn how to do and deal with. Right. Run the coven is like hurting cats. It is insane and beautiful and insane and beautiful all at the same time. Right. But you know, things do happen. To not sit there and automatically go, uh, let's don't let's plan for when it all blows up is never a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

No, don't don't wait until it happens.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

No, because when it when you wait until it happens, it's gonna go wrong.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be too late. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Somebody's gonna pop, well, that ain't fair. And you're gonna be like, well, we're just now making the rules on it, but that's not fair.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Uh like, well, we we haven't really come across this before, so we're just we're trying to figure out how to deal with it. Yeah, okay, yeah, that's not gonna work either. No, you need to have some foundation in place.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

I know a lot of people don't use Lady Sheba's law, the laws of Lady Sheba, but they are a good foundation.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

They are, and even if you're not, that's fine. You need to have some type, like I said before, you need to have some type of foundation in place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

I mean, I would I would love for us to eventually do an episode on that, but doing an episode of 188 laws of Lady Shiva. And if y'all read these laws, uh trust me, it's enough to bang your head up against the wall to begin with.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yeah, try try handwriting all of them into your book of shadows. Yeah. That's fun. Um, but yeah, so no, I mean we I mean we could. We could we could uh we could pull out the ones you know dedicated strictly to coven use and let us know what you think. It might be a two-part episode, but yeah, let us know what you think.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

I'm not looking forward to that one.

Coffee Talk Closing And Next Week

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Well, it's not about us now, is it? All right, you got ready for some coffee. I'm ready for some coffee. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pegan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at life templeseminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a steel blazing fires. And so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning breaks.