A "What If" Mega-sode! w/ Pablo O'Hana

Come along as we unpack a veritable grab-bag of "what if" questions, some submitted by listeners! These are questions that perhaps can't warrant their own episode but are important to address nonetheless.

Thanks to Pablo as always and to you, the listeners, for being here!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Nothing has gripped the world like Titanic. An unsinkable ship. Lost at sea on her maiden voyage. More than a century later, hundreds of water still haunt that fateful night. What if she'd hit the iceberg head on? What if the Californian hadn't switched his wireless off? What if Jay Bruce Ismay had never boarded? Subscribe to Unthinkable, the Titanic podcast. A new story of what if many.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22

Pablo is here, of course. And today we're doing something fun. We are going down the list of a lot of shorter questions. Well, shorter in the sense that the answer to these what if questions are shorter. Maybe there's less information. Maybe there's less of less, like fewer consequences to discuss, wouldn't fill a whole episode. Similar to if anyone else listens to Steph You missed in History Class, which is a huge longtime podcast based out of the US. Like every quarter they do, you know, like a mini sode of unresearchable, unresearchable episodes. And this is kind of what this is. This is a collection of questions that we've thrown on our shared document. Listeners have submitted. And maybe it doesn't warrant a whole episode of what if? Maybe there's just not enough research. Maybe there's not enough of a consequence, but it's fun and kind of intellectually stimulating to talk about and think about. So we have a long list. We'll be going through them pretty quickly. Our goal, we'll see if we can achieve it, is that each one will just be like four to five minutes of discussion. But I think it represents kind of the brainstorming of this whole experiment we've done with what if and some of the questions that have come out of our brainstorming that we haven't had time to do a whole episode about. So, Pablo, welcome and tell us our first mini question. What's our first mini what if for Titanic?

SPEAKER_03: 2:52

So the first one taps into this kind of the sort of conspiracy theory end of Titanic, which is that, you know, she nearly hit SS New York on her departure from Southampton. And um I think it's uh, you know, people use that a lot as as um proof that she was kind of doomed. And, you know, the conspiracy theorists like to say, you know, that was the beginning of her of her bad luck. Um so yeah, as essentially as she as she was leaving, she pulled SS New York in, and it was like meters um away from from colliding, um, and a strike would have meant, you know, uh some sort of delay. So I mean I think this one, not to just not to cap it off, but I mean I think it's like relatively um it's relatively easy to put this one together, which is that I think the the sort of authorities there would have halted the sailing, Titanic would have had to return to her berth.

SPEAKER_01: 3:52

Yes, and she could have been delayed even as much as an entire day or two, potentially.

SPEAKER_03: 3:56

Yeah, I mean I think but I think it doesn't really matter. I think anything from a couple of hours to a day would have just that would have been it. I mean, the delays you say could have been up to a day, but it maybe would have been three to five hours, depending on sort of the damage and dry dock availability. But either way, some sort of damage would have had to would have happened and would have they would have had to look at it. Um and outside of some press about you know jinxed white star line Olympic class liners, it basically would have been a humiliating bump but would have averted all the words. I mean I'm like struggling to say the words because I'm like, I'm basically that maximum.

SPEAKER_01: 4:39

Well, but I do think I do think I have one extra thought for this one, which is yeah, I mean, probably this one little bump would have saved a lot of lives, but it probably would have made the kind of, you know, for lack of a better term, the cast of characters on Titanic different because a lot of people probably would have switched ships. A lot of people probably would have decided to maybe stay or change their travel plans, maybe travel overland to get another ship. So it could have, you know, the people on board could have ended up looking different in this one, which I think is interesting to point out. Um, but yeah, I think that one's pretty cut and dry.

SPEAKER_03: 5:15

You know, and the repercussions of that, of course. I mean, the repercussions of an awful lot of these, if type just for the record, because if Titanic doesn't sink, we all know that the loss of life changes, the inquiries changes, the reforms, the lifeboats, the wireless.

SPEAKER_01: 5:29

A lot of the things we've talked about already and get put into motion. Yeah. And that's that's what makes this list what it is, because a lot of these fall under the category of I mean, if we did a whole episode, then you guys would listeners would be sick of us because we'd be so repetitive on the things we're saying. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Okay. So SS New York does, or yeah, what if it actually hits Titanic? And that does play into a lot of, you know, like you said, there has been, there's been some conspiracy theories about sort of premonitions or or like the curse of Titanic, and maybe this was was part of that. Um and it is, you know, we're recording this Halloween week, so it's a little spooky if you want it to be. Um, okay. Second, we have that the Californian hadn't switched their wireless off as early as they did. So if the Californian is available via wireless, what happens?

SPEAKER_03: 6:26

They gave Titanic's distress goals.

SPEAKER_01: 6:31

And in this case, Titanic potentially sinks, but many, many more people are saved by you know ferrying over to another ship.

SPEAKER_03: 6:41

Yeah, and I think I mean there's a lot to be said there that again the impact of that being that they probably all the kind of um post-analysis of Titanic in terms of the wireless operations and then mandating 24-7 um coverage and things maybe doesn't happen. So again, there's kind of impact there. But I mean, essentially there's I mean, there's two tracks, right? One is that maybe um they don't collide at all if they take kind of the warnings more seriously. I mean, that's a slightly different what if, but if it if we are just purely playing on the fact that Californian doesn't switch his wireless off Titanic still hits the iceberg, then Californian gets there immediately, essentially becomes the and becomes like the hero of the night.

SPEAKER_01: 7:28

So you don't have Rostran and Carpathia as the hero of the night, you have Californian as the hero of the night. So that's that's different too.

SPEAKER_03: 7:36

That totally wipes out um Carpathia from Titank's story.

SPEAKER_01: 7:40

Yeah, challenges are which is a big one because that's a huge part of the legacy.

SPEAKER_03: 7:44

Yeah. And so you basically have Californians steaming straight away. They're they're what, like 10, 15 miles, nautical miles away.

SPEAKER_01: 7:53

But they're like, they would have made it there in plenty of time.

SPEAKER_03: 7:56

Yeah, they would have. I mean, they they would have done we've spoken about this before about the lifeboats not actually being they're not back then, they were not designed as lifeboats, they were designed essentially. So they would have done exactly what they were designed to do. Yes, which again, as we said at the top of this podcast, which is that the repercussions being that having enough lifeboats for everybody probably doesn't come in after Titanic because they go, Well, we put enough lifeboats to ferry you from one ship to another. That is exactly what happened.

SPEAKER_00: 8:25

What it was supposed to do.

SPEAKER_03: 8:26

So they so they provided the the purpose that they needed to.

SPEAKER_01: 8:30

What's the what's the weight limit on a ship like the Californian? Like, I've never thought about this, but does everybody fit on board safely?

SPEAKER_03: 8:39

Well, this is actually something that I thought about with Carpavia as well. But I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 8:44

Because but if but if California makes it in time, you're talking about hundreds and hundreds more people.

unknown: 8:50

You know.

SPEAKER_03: 8:51

We're gonna do some real time. I'm gonna do some real-time research.

SPEAKER_01: 8:54

You're not just talking, you're not just talking about 700 people, you're talking about, you know, 2200 people. Are you researching it? I can talk while you're researching. You look it up, I can I can like um I can improvise.

SPEAKER_03: 9:08

Or you can just cut this out. We will pretend that we mirror it.

SPEAKER_01: 9:13

That would require more work on my end. No, I'll just make people listen to me talking.

SPEAKER_03: 9:16

So I was so this is I did know that Carpathia um was obviously much further away. Californian could have been there in around 45 minutes, depending on you know, when the conditions and the icebergs, yeah, yeah. For sure they could have been there before Titan sank. There's almost no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_01: 9:35

And you're always, and then and to be clear, like in that scenario, you're always gonna have deaths. I mean, like, even if California made it, I'm sure there are potential accidents while ferrying people over. People fall in the water, people panic. I mean, it's not, you know, I'm not saying it would have been a perfect, complete non-loss of life. Uh, because if you look at the history of shipwrecks, there are a lot of scenarios like this where ships do make it, and there's still a loss of life because it's chaotic and there's confusion and and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03: 9:59

So the Californians uh was was only 6,223 gross tonnage, which What was Carpathia? Carpathia was I actually think this is kind of interesting to look up in real time. So Carpathia's gross tonnage was was 13. Okay, so it's 13 and a half.

SPEAKER_01: 10:23

So So I don't think I don't think that everyone fits on Californian.

SPEAKER_03: 10:27

It's twice as big, and obviously we know the size of Titanic being around 45. So I mean it's talking about some pretty significant.

SPEAKER_01: 10:35

But Titanic is not full, which is well I was just about to say Titanic's not full.

SPEAKER_03: 10:38

So um Carbathi, sorry, Californian only had around 40-ish, 45, something like that, passenger berths. Um, and she only carried six lifeboats. Am I reading that correctly?

SPEAKER_01: 10:55

Maybe, maybe what they would have done is fit as many people as they could on board and then leave some people in the lifeboats. So maybe some people would have, you know what I mean? Like ferry as many people as you can. And if you realize you're reaching capacity, maybe you have to just start leaving people in lifeboats, but right near Californian where they're being monitored, and you can try to all like maybe they could tether together and that sort of thing. And if you if you have all of the equipment and everything you you need to do all of that from California, it's a lot easier. You've got lighting, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03: 11:27

I think you probably could get everybody onto the Californian, but because I don't think she would have had that many people on board anyway. So I think it's different to because Carpathia already had um, I don't know how many passengers, but Carpathia already had more passengers on board than California.

SPEAKER_01: 11:46

They had quite a few passengers on board, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 11:48

So Californian, even though she was smaller, would have had more room. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:55

More just room.

SPEAKER_03: 11:56

And you can put people on decks, you can put I think physically you could fit all the people on, but I mean it's not gonna be comfortable.

SPEAKER_01: 12:03

But no, people aren't gonna have reasons. More comfortable than more comfortable than death in the icy water. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 12:10

Um that's that's interesting, actually. I hadn't considered that. So that actually is an interesting implication of this what I've is is how you actually fit 2,200 people or thereabouts on a ship that is a literally a fraction of the size of Titanic.

SPEAKER_01: 12:25

But there are, there is, I mean, this is where like the you know, the historian and me will like I I won't go off on a tangent, but I I do, you know, from my studies, I can name you, especially in, you know, I know the US South really well, for example, and I can name you several examples of incidents in the you know, 19th and early 20th century where too many people were put on boats, whether it's riverboat or an ocean vessel. And what ended up happening is not because how many people were on board, but because of you know, equipment malfunction or something like that. Like you can fit a lot of people on these things before they sink.

SPEAKER_03: 13:00

I mean and one of the examples of that was the ship. I know I texted you about this when I went to see a Titanic exhibition in Chicago, which was not the best really overall. It was one of those kind of touring ones. But at the end, they did a link to Chicago and there was a ship, the SS Eastland, it was called, which actually capsized and did cause a loss of life because they had been forced post-Titanics. This happened in 1915, as capsizing. Um, they had been forced to add all of these extra um lifeboats and precautions as a as a direct result of Titanic, and actually made it so top heavy that it capsized. And there was a lot, I can't remember how many people died, but there was a there was a a serious loss of life, and that was a direct through line from Titanic.

SPEAKER_01: 13:47

So yeah, you're right that there's a possibility of that, that these ships are not designed to kind of Yeah, I've you know I I haven't, I'm sure it exists, but I haven't come across you know historical examples of of a ship going down because of the I mean, obviously my you know ships, immigrant ships, there have been some incidents. So, you know, but I but all that to say, I think in this situation they could have made it work based on what I know about vessels.

SPEAKER_03: 14:10

Even if they just even if they just went to Titanic, picked the passengers up, and then didn't move any further until another ship. Well, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01: 14:16

I don't think they would have been able to sail with that much extra weight on board, but then they could have just called out for more ships, and then you have all of the passengers being like disseminated. Okay. All right, I'm gonna be the school teacher. I'm gonna keep us on track. Okay, next one.

SPEAKER_00: 14:31

Something um something about weather. Yeah. What is it? I'm sorry, but I didn't forgot it's not I thought I was I thought I was about to read this like sophisticated question. Okay, um, what do you mean by this?

SPEAKER_03: 14:47

I think because I have seen a lot of conversation. So Ellie's laughing because my note literally just says, and I'm gonna read the beta, something about weather slash Gulfstream slash Labrador Current slash light beams. This was because I'd seen some conversation about um, obviously, we all know it was moonless, it was a totally flat calm, no waves breaking at the ice, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Berg's hardest spot, so on so forth. We all know that. Um so it's weather the the current that car, so the Labrador current is what carried the ice into the shipping lanes and carried essentially took the icebergs into Titanic's path. Um and the Gulf Stream is the kind of warmth that met it and kind of creating this sort of the whole perfect storm, as it were, that created the iceberg to meet Titanic. If any of that changes, so you only need another 30 or so seconds because we know how close they were, you know, the the time from spotting Titanic to hitting it was so short. So you only need a very tiny amount of light from the moon or a modest kind of you know, chop sort of lapping at the base of the iceberg for them to see it. Um, you know, any one of those would have just changed it completely. You know, I so that that's kind of the point is that you only needed to change the weather conditions very, very minor amount for it to really have quite a dramatic change in what happens.

SPEAKER_01: 16:16

Yeah, and I think it's like it's kind of an etc. question, right? Like there's so many little different ones you could ask under that umbrella. And I think that's why that's you worded it this way, and why it's on the list is like there's just a thousand different ways that something changing by 10 seconds or 30 seconds could have affected. I mean, it's like when people go through and they analyze like the night sky at the time or the how the water was. I mean, it's these are the con. I mean, people like to have these conversations about Titanic. Those are not my favorite conversations about Titanic because it, yeah, it just follows like a technical line of thinking that's not my cup of tea. But there are a probably a thousand different ways in which those could have changed and Titanic wouldn't have sunk.

SPEAKER_03: 16:58

But I think, or even more so because we know how close they were to avoiding it, that actually, even if they did hit and they only breached one, two, three compartments, whatever. So there are many scenarios in which even just a slight, slight shift in um the narrative. So whether, as I say, whether it is just a tiny bit away, so they spot it a little bit earlier, like all of that, even if they still hit, it just completely changes everything. And it just means that basically n the impact of it is is reduced so much that it either doesn't sink um or they don't hit it at all. If they do hit, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

So it's Yeah, I mean, like you're talking, I mean, we've talked about it before, but five seconds would have even made a big difference. Yeah. Three seconds might have.

SPEAKER_03: 17:39

So you only need this is what I mean, is that like any number of those changes, whether it's a bit more of a um, you know, light from the moon or whether it's the current or the Gulf Stream changing, you know, just minor minor changes would have averted the whole thing. And that's I mean, that is why Titan Jones because it's such an extraordinary perfect storm. So there we go.

SPEAKER_01: 17:58

Okay, perfect. Uh next. I'm like uh I need like a pointer.

SPEAKER_03: 18:03

Um next we need to have like a little countdown on the screen, so we have to do it within like four minutes or something.

SPEAKER_01: 18:08

That actually would have been fun. We would have needed to like think that through and have it um um it's too late now, but that's a good idea. Okay. Um uh okay.

SPEAKER_03: 18:18

I mean I could just do it on my phone, I suppose, couldn't I?

SPEAKER_01: 18:21

Oh, actually, hold on. I can do it. Since you're since you're kind of taking the lead on a few of these technical ones, hold on, I can do the timing. Um Papel's like, wait a minute, I was. Um, let's see. Okay, I'm gonna time you. What would four minutes is what we said is the max?

SPEAKER_03: 18:39

Yeah, go on then. Four minutes. Can we do it?

SPEAKER_01: 18:42

The wireless operators did pass along the message about the icebergs to the bridge. So this means all messages make it to the bridge. What happens?

SPEAKER_03: 18:54

I think if all of the iceberg messages make it to the bridge, I actually don't know that it changes that much because I think that they got multiple very strong ice warnings. Um, I think they were more bothered about the kind of passenger stuff. Um so this is one of those ones where it is it's either a either or. They either don't change anything. I don't I actually, in my heart of hearts, don't believe that any more ice warnings would have made a whole ton of difference, and therefore everything plays out exactly as it does. Or it does, and they make one minor change, which again changes everything. So they own again, as we've said, they only needed to make one or two, not even one or two, just one very, very minor change. Slow down up to the state. And everything changes. Yeah. Half a knot would have changed everything. Stopping at night, whatever, any number of these things that we know would have changed the outcome. Um, you know, so I think it's either everything plays, you know, either they get these extra item ones and they just go, fuck it, we've had the rest of them, who cares? In which case everything carries on as normal. And Titanic is as we know it today, or they get an extra feed and they go, 'Good Christ, all right, these are already piling up. Maybe we should like reduce speed by one knot. Well then that's true.' Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:08

And or I think, like you said, it's also likely that a couple more don't really make much of a difference because if you have like the microcosm of the culture on board that ship, the officers are already thinking about these the way they're going to think about them. The captain's already thinking about them the way they're. I don't know that a couple more really infiltrate the culture of that and make much of a difference, unfortunately. That's kind of the cynical that's true.

SPEAKER_03: 20:35

And and even if it did, so say, for example, they do suddenly have this big moment where they go, okay, actually, now we take this particular warning seriously. They just then have an uneventful passage and they congratulate themselves on having you know successfully navigated this this icy water and the industry complacency persists. So which is what we've talked about. So it's um yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 20:58

You did that one in two minutes.

SPEAKER_03: 21:00

Oh, look at me fly.

SPEAKER_01: 21:02

Yeah, okay. Um let's see. Ooh, this is a big one. Okay, this was the top one that I got from listeners. So I got I got like six people asked this one when I asked for it on Instagram. Um, what if there were binoculars in the crow's nest? Go.

SPEAKER_03: 21:18

So the binoculars in the crow's nest is an interesting one, right? Because I think most most historians, most analysts come to the conclusion that it would not have made enough of a difference for them to see the iceberg in time. Um they didn't have the key to the locker, which is presumably where the where they were. Um but they the binoculars then, you have to remember, of course, binoculars then are not what we think of right now, right? So binoculars then were not this kind of like all seeing, all solving um key that would that perhaps today they might have been. I mean, people don't rely on binoculars anymore, but you know.

SPEAKER_01: 21:56

Um the technology of the binoculars themselves have not also not been up to par with like what we think of now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 22:05

And so I think they would have been good for sort of confirming faint you know, uh shapes essentially. Yeah. But I think they have a very narrow field back then.

SPEAKER_01: 22:15

Um it was very dark, it was very still.

SPEAKER_03: 22:18

Exactly. I don't know that it would have made enough of a difference.

SPEAKER_01: 22:23

Um maybe a couple of seconds, but would a couple of seconds maybe done it.

SPEAKER_03: 22:28

So this is the thing. So if you have those binoculars, do you manage to gain yourself, say, 10 seconds? 10 seconds actually would have been enough to at least have reduced it down to two or three compartments, in which case, in theory, she survives, um, or avoid it altogether. So again, it's one of those ones where it avoids disaster entirely. That's quite plausible. Um, they would need to have seen it as a say sort of 10 seconds or so before. Or if we go by the theory that um the binoculars couldn't have made that much difference because it was still so dark, there was no kind of breaking at the water. Because that is often what people say that the way in which they would have spotted the iceberg with the binoculars is to look down.

SPEAKER_01: 23:22

You look for the breaking water at the base.

SPEAKER_03: 23:24

Yeah, which they still wouldn't have seen. So they may have started to see shapes. Um, and again, maybe that gives you 10 seconds or so. But I don't know. Do you but do you alert an all-or-nothing one?

SPEAKER_01: 23:38

Do you like alert the bridge on the idea of maybe a shape? I mean, that's my question, is like I think I don't know what the training protocol for watchmen were at that point, but like, oh, I might see like the shadow of a shape. Do I do the dramatic call down for just what I think might be? Or do you say to yourself, like, oh, let me get a better view of it? So I I think that's like a nuance, like you just said, that it's just impossible to know.

SPEAKER_03: 24:02

Yeah. And I, but again, the outcomes are so black and white, right? So either that 10 seconds buys them enough time to completely avoid disaster fine, then basically.

SPEAKER_01: 24:12

Or it means nothing.

SPEAKER_03: 24:13

Yeah. I mean, like basically nothing changes. So Titanic is as it is. I mean, it's the same. This is why we've grouped these together. Either Titanic is as it is today, we know everything that, well, you know, we know an awful lot about her, or they do avoid the disaster, in which case for them they carry on as normal, and there has to be another Titanic later in order to bring in all of these um changes. Regular change. Because they go, well, great, everything worked. Like, you know, we had the binoculars, we saw the disaster, we avoided it, great, like problem solved. So again, it's a kind of all or nothing one, which um a lot of these are.

SPEAKER_01: 24:42

Okay, you did you had 30 seconds to spare on that one. Right.

unknown: 24:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 24:47

All right. What do we have next? We have the captain slows at night for the ice, and there's a more moderate speed policy after the Baltic's warnings. So I think you're gonna be able to do this one quickly.

SPEAKER_03: 25:05

I mean, this is this is basically just the same one, right? So the same one we just did. I feel like this was because there was a sp there were specific in that area from Baltic, and I know that there was a lot of conversation about if you know if the caption is slow down, you know, towards the end of his shift. Again, it's the same thing, right? If they slow down, even half a knot, one knot, it's it everything changes. She avoids the iceberg, that's the end of it.

SPEAKER_01: 25:30

Yeah, and I think it speaks to um I think it speaks to how ingrained like our our feelings and our thoughts about Captain Smith and the decisions he made are too. Like that's that's a whole can of worms, you know. We don't have time to open all of that here. But, you know, because we talked about this in our one of our previous what ifs, like because Captain Smith dies and he doesn't get to speak for himself, you know, there's a lot, there's just a lot, like, I don't know. This question feels very pregnant with like how you feel about Captain Smith and what his decisions were. And I think it ties into our previous episode on him a lot.

SPEAKER_03: 26:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:12

Okay. You did that one very quickly. Okay. Next we have the bulkhead tops extended to B deck, as was later recommended. What happens?

SPEAKER_03: 26:25

So this is an interesting one because I think Titanic becomes not unsinkable but kind of rescuable, which is not quite scratchy. Um but we know she could remain afloat with four compartments flooded. We know the iceberg opened five or six. Um, and had the water not spilled over into the other decks, I think she remains if we are to believe that she was built as she was. I mean, of course, that would be the other test is whether the claims were true that she could have stayed afloat with those compartments. If we take that at face value, then she gets hours of more float time. So the panic is much reduced, the distress, the lifeboat loading.

SPEAKER_01: 27:22

If the ship is visibly going down much slower, then you take away a good percentage of the panic.

SPEAKER_03: 27:30

I think that on that basis, so she still hits the iceberg, but the the bulkheads are extended, so she still hits, you know, it's still five or six compartments flooded, but that time is dramatically reduced. I think Carpathia probably gets there in time because she only needs a couple more hours, and she just needs some time bought.

SPEAKER_01: 27:51

It's like the scenes of wireless operators in the film. It's like you can feel the tension there of like, is this really all the time we have? Like, if we had a little more time, we can make this happen, basically.

SPEAKER_03: 28:02

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But also that all of the panic that we've spoken about this before, that all of the panic and the stress that that causes from knowing not enough lifeboats, not enough time, that there weren't procedures in places and that people were getting women and children first versus women and children only, and so on and so forth. All of that is just brought down a notch because if we are to believe that Andrews, you know, I mean, when I say if we are to believe, I'm working on the presumption that everything we sort of know as or that we believe to have happened. Andrews comes up and says, Yeah, Andrews comes up and says, This is how much time we've got, suddenly goes, okay, right, we've got four or five hours instead of two. That changes things quite dramatically, as I say, not just with a boat getting not just with another boat coming along or another ship coming to save them, but that everyone goes, okay, we've got time to like figure out what the hell to do here.

SPEAKER_01: 28:52

So yeah, I mean, and this is a theme we return to a lot with these when we've done these more technical questions, or with a lot of these we've talked about today, that really the theme is a little more time goes a long way.

SPEAKER_03: 29:06

Like and and sometimes that time is just 10 seconds, right? Before we were just talking about like 10 extra seconds.

SPEAKER_01: 29:12

Even 10 seconds even five seconds. Yeah. And in this case, you have a couple hours. You have you have potentially almost every per everybody surviving, maybe if you have just a couple of more hours. And it sort of ties into the Californian wireless one too. Then you can have all these conversations about, you know, who gets there in time, what other ships are around.

SPEAKER_03: 29:33

Um, you know, well, and the the big thing for Belfast that comes out of this is that the investigations and design changes are they still all of this still happens. But I mean, her sort of compartmentation and this kind of unsinkable narrative is actually held as a success because they will go, exactly what we wanted to happen happened. Yeah. And very few people died. Maybe some people in, you know, some of the workers in those compartments have flooded. But um, you know, you're talking about very, very small numbers of people dying. And, you know, people are gonna start to think actually these guys in in Harn and Wolfabild genuinely are building unsinkable ships, even though she probably wouldn't have been unsinkable. Yeah, she sank.

SPEAKER_01: 30:23

We have a few, we we're down to the wire on this one in a few seconds, but yeah, then in that one, she still sinks, but the PRs, I mean, this, I mean, I'm like preaching to the choir by saying this, but like the PR of this entire thing is so different. Um loss of this epic shit, but the PR of it is just a hundred percent different. Um and that goes in, I think that leads into the next question, which is, and this is one that um came in from a couple of listeners as well. What if the ice patrol, well, like a variation of this came in? What if ice patrol existed a year earlier? And obviously, ice patrol um is, you know, a patrolling of this part of the North Atlantic because of the danger, because of the burgs, because of the temperatures. Uh, it's now obviously maritime law and has saved countless lives. So if this was already in place, is this a simple one where it where it just that just means like, yeah, somebody would have come along? Like, what do you think? How do you think that would have played out in it like in the night itself?

SPEAKER_03: 31:32

They would have almost certainly have issued, you know, bulletins, directives, orders sending people southward, right? We know that had they gone further south, they would have probably avoided. Well, I mean, we know that a million things would have avoided the iceberg, but if they had mandated a further southerly um trajectory, then yeah, she would have avoided the iceberg. But we're back to that thing. I mean, it would have the whole thing would have been avoided.

SPEAKER_01: 32:02

Yeah, I mean, it's it would have been like a level of awareness, not only like night of and safety regulations, night of in practice, but it would have been a whole different level of awareness and practice.

SPEAKER_03: 32:15

I think getting a warning from something like the I uh the ice patrol versus having just got it from other ships, perhaps they would have been able to say, you are heading into directly this field of ice, which I know is what the other ships are doing as well, but it feels it's almost like your friend telling something, telling you something versus your parent or something. You know, you take that a bit more seriously. And so um they probably never meet that field. Um and you know, they follow.

SPEAKER_01: 32:43

Yeah, the route's different and Titanic just sails into history.

SPEAKER_03: 32:46

There may still be a delay, as we've said before. Like things like the wireless and lifeboat changes probably lag a bit because there still needs to be in all of these scenarios where Titanic doesn't have this huge catastrophical survive. Yeah, like for there would need to be another Titanic later.

SPEAKER_01: 33:02

And yeah, because regulations are unfortunately so often written in blood. We've talked about that a lot on this podcast and our in our episodes as well. And that, you know, I'm I'm actually just gonna go ahead and like work one of the other ones that came in from a listener in with this, which is, you know, a question, a really obvious one, and one that that that I got a couple of messages about. What if it just simply didn't sink? You know, like what if you just like looked at this, uh look at a broader question of like, what if Titanic was just not a ship that sank, all of these things, all these little 10 seconds, 30 seconds, or something happened and it just doesn't sink. Number one, you just like we would never have uttered, I mean, none of us would have ever uttered the word Titanic. And, you know, we've talked about that in other episodes as well. But number two, you then almost have to have another ship that is a Titanic for these safety regulations to happen. And I think that's the biggest thing that comes out of all of these little tree branches, any of them that go to the conclusion, oh, Titanic didn't sink. Then you've opened up the can of worms of then where do all these regulations come with lifeboats, with the ice patrol, that sort of thing. So I think the number one answer to what if Titanic doesn't sink is, well, then you have to have another Titanic and what ship becomes Titanic?

SPEAKER_03: 34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:21

In order for any of this to happen, safety regulation-wise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 34:25

And it's that simple. I mean, none of us would be here, none of us would. I mean, we might be here talking about a different ship or something, but Titanic would be a good one. It would be a different one. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You just have never heard of it.

SPEAKER_01: 34:35

It would be a different one and it would be a little bit later. And, you know, I I'm reading a um really quick aside, I'll make it super quick, but I'm I'm actually reading a book about a shipwreck right now. It's a brand new book by a journalist named Adam Cohen because he's going to come on the podcast and talk about some maritime history. But it's about a really famous uh shipwreck where there, long story short, some crazy things happen, and there's like an act of cannibalism to survive and the survivors of the shipwreck. And this is like in the 1880s, it's not like 1500. Uh, and it turns into this law case that is still taught in, you know, in schools in the UK, US, all over the world now because it's such a prime like moral and ethical dilemma, and it's so like juicy to talk about bar in the pun. Um, but I think like, you know, I was thinking about it while reading that book that like, what are the ships that we that enter our imagination for whatever reason? It's usually in blood, it's usually because of loss of life. Um, oh, we missed that one, but we combined two, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_03: 35:38

Um but it but it usually is like written in blood, why we obsess about well the yeah, and the the way that I always like to compare it, and I know some people find this crass is that if you were to pick two of the most landmark changes in travel regulation, it's Titanic and 9-11. And they are both reactions to catastrophic, uh, avoidable losses of life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:03

So, you know, it's um because how do how does a human being learn through failure? And I think it it's why history is inherently tied to, you know, psychology human psychology. And when you study history, you're basically studying human psychology. This is what I've said, like my entire career as a historian. Uh, so you know, I I think that's actually a like a really good way to put it. Um, okay, next one. What if the shuffle of officers never happened? So most people listening to this probably know, but they did have an officer restructure right, like literally right before the ship goes out. And it is who gets bumped? Let me who gets bumped up? Is it it's Murdoch that gets bumped up, right? I think Murdoch gets bumped up and someone gets demoted and he takes the um binoculars, and that's the guy that um leaves with the binoculars according to the lore. Um, yeah, last minute change to the senior officer list just before the maiden voyage. Um, it resulted in a demotion for William Murdoch and Charles Lightholder, and then the complete removal of a man named David Blair. And this happened because Smith wanted uh Henry Wilde to be um his second in command on this ship. And if anyone is a Patreon member or has thought about joining, that is one little plug. That is one um bonus episode I've done is Henry Wilde. I did a bonus episode series of a bunch of the officers a couple of years ago. So I do have some information on him and I go into detail um about some of this stuff. But there is this shuffle. So it ties into the binocular question, but we've already kind of covered that. So if you take that part away though, does it do anything that affects it may well affect.

SPEAKER_03: 37:58

I don't know how much of that plays a part in the confusion over um how the lifeboats are loaded.

SPEAKER_01: 38:04

Potentially.

SPEAKER_03: 38:05

And there is there's a potential for that. There's a potential for people, you don't know how, you know, upset people are by that. Are they on their game because they've kind of been promoted or demoted at the last minute? Um, you know, the kind of I think the the structure is probably shaken somewhat by that. And maybe the life the lifeboat launches is kind of clearer.

SPEAKER_00: 38:31

Yeah, just plays out differently. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 38:34

So the death toll falls. I mean, it's not gonna go away completely because we know it they didn't have enough lifeboats, but it feels as though. I mean, if there's an earlier sighting, then we know what happens. We go, you know, revert to our previous question uh question about the binoculars. Setting that aside, I think you just have a reduction in you have a slight reduction in, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:54

I think the logistics of the lifeboat loading probably looks a little different based on yeah, the personality of these officers. I think potentially the reception of some of the ice warnings maybe looks like a little different, but I I doubt it. It kind of ties into what we talked about a few minutes ago. I don't this just seems like a personality thing. I I don't think this really has a lot of bearing on what happens. I don't, you know, all of these men were trained in similar fashion. They were all similar types of people. Obviously, they had, you know, nuanced backstories and lives and families and things, but I think they're all white Starline employees. Most of them have been with White Starline for a while. I don't, I don't see it going that differently just because of the positioning of these officers. I don't know anything about David Blair. Maybe, maybe we should have looked into him a little more. I don't know. Like maybe that's where the what if is, like if he had had stayed on board. But I doubt that as a lower officer in that situation, his decisions would have had much bearing on the night of the sinking. Um Um, he probably would have just been working with Wilde and Murdoch and who else. So yeah, I don't think so. Right? I just don't think that that would have made much of a difference. Um, unless you were there that night and you got to see these individual personalities play out, and then maybe we would know more. Um next. What this is one we were excited to talk about. This is a big one. What if the ship hit an iceberg in the daylight or earlier in the evening?

SPEAKER_03: 40:34

So if we're working on the basis that she still hit the iceberg, then I do think you still get um you still get better sort of you get a better um survival rate because there is things are just clearer in the daytime, obviously.

SPEAKER_01: 40:55

Yeah. For like loading of boats, less chaos when you can see, people are less scared. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 41:02

But that said, things like flags, lamps, rockets, harder to see during the daytime.

SPEAKER_01: 41:09

Um the Californians wireless would have been on.

SPEAKER_03: 41:13

But the California's wireless would have been on. So that I mean, if if it's daylight or early in the evening, then I think we just click over to our Californian question, basically.

SPEAKER_01: 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 41:24

If or it's that there's no collision at all because they see the iceberg way further in advance.

SPEAKER_01: 41:30

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing about this question, is that it's a pretty big if to say that like if they like wouldn't they have spotted the iceberg in the daylight? You know, so I don't I think that's it's sort of a weird question.

SPEAKER_03: 41:43

Well, they only needed to spot it five or ten seconds earlier.

SPEAKER_01: 41:45

So that's what I mean. And like in in daylight, I have to believe they would have. So it's sort of a question that kind of answers itself a little bit. Um, if it was simply earlier in the evening, then you have more potential, you know, yes, maybe it was already dark, and so they still hit the iceberg, but if it's earlier in the evening, then we just kind of click into the California answer, California. So and that's and like guys, that's why we did this episode this way, because so many of these, if we did a whole episode on, we would just be repeating ourselves for 20, 30 minutes at a time. And I envisioned almost like a genealogy tree or like some sort of like flow chart where it just all kind of leads back to the same like three answers for a lot of these. Okay. Uh, and then last one, what if she had been found intact, lying upright?

SPEAKER_03: 42:41

So this one's interesting because I think we know a lot more. So surveying her, analyzing her, researching her is so much easier. Um, Belfast and Hon and Wolf, you know, I mean, they're sort of not the same as they were in 1912, but they're pretty vindicated to have built a ship that managed to smash it and sink intact. Um, I there is a huge push to raise her, I think. I think if she is found intact, people are like, bring that ship to the surface. Um, so I think the the battles over her as a gravesite are probably the the debate is still there, but I think if you find that again, remember that we are working on a basis that nothing else changes except this one what if. So on this basis, everything about Tyson Gasame, except the fact that she's found intact. I mean, imagine the media frenzy over that is just off the charts. So I think even though the debate about the kind of gravesite and the kind of ethical and legal battles over her, you know, which still go on today, I just think that they're it's so hard to make that argument because she's now found intact, and you just think we have to raise this ship. I mean, that is still a monumental task and probably. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 44:14

I can't even begin to think about the technology that that would require. But you know what this made me think of is another fun one to tack on. I'm gonna stop the timer because we we did pretty much answer that in time, but I can't believe I didn't think about this. What if she sinks in shallower water or closer to that is a very good one. Like, what if what if she's only like 50 miles?

SPEAKER_03: 44:36

Well, she's at like Britannic. I mean, you can die, like a dive. Yeah, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_01: 44:40

Like, what if she's what if she sunk at a depth where humans could die? I mean, if if if this fucking ship sank at a depth where humans could safely dive once they found her, it would have been, I mean, you people would have been arrested for like trying to to you know plunder this ship. I mean, I can't imagine what would have happened, the legal battles over these articles.

SPEAKER_03: 45:08

But then the thing about that though is does that take away from the mystery? Because part again, a big part of Titanic's legacy was that she couldn't be found for so long. I mean, how many people mounted efforts to try and find her?

SPEAKER_01: 45:24

That's true, but I mean, I can't tell you. I mean, listen, I'm no expert on maritime history, but I do I do watch a lot of Expedition Unknown, okay? And I will tell you that there are many, many shipwrecks that experts have devoted their entire lives to finding that are pretty close to shore. You know what I mean? So it's even if she was in a in a shallower spot, I don't know that that always translates to finding easier. Like I have read many, many accounts of people spending like 20, 30 years of their life trying to find a certain wreck and it's in pretty shallow water. You know, it's just the ocean is so big. Like I don't know that that necessarily means like it still might have taken decades to find it, maybe not quite as long. But you know, once the technology improved in say probably like the 40s, 50s, 60s, they probably would have found if that was the case, they probably would have found Titanic in like the 1950s, you know, 60s. So maybe it's you know 20, 30 years sooner. But I still don't, I I still think it's like a whole thing that they find it, you know. So I don't know. And then but then that's interesting. It's like that's an interesting what if too. What if what if Titanic is found in 1947? Like, you know, what if I don't know the history of sonar and stuff, but I don't know what year like sonar could pick up at that depth.

SPEAKER_03: 46:48

But but the thing about finding Titanic intact, so she's found intact lying upright, that means is that she didn't split in two.

SPEAKER_00: 46:55

Yeah, which is a huge yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 46:57

Well, it's a big deal because it takes away a large part of the drama of the night. And again, Titanic endures in part because of the whole story of her. If she doesn't split in two, and imagine watching James Cameron's film and she doesn't split in two.

SPEAKER_01: 47:10

Yeah, I mean, I think you still have drama, but it's not there's a whole section of that film that doesn't happen and isn't as I don't know. I mean, I I still think a ship of that size going down is pretty dramatic, you know. Like I the split makes it extra, but it's still all those people still die. There's still the visual of you know the stern going down. Um, it's it's still really bad.

SPEAKER_03: 47:37

So I'm not saying I'm not saying it's like great fun, but I'm just saying that like there is like a big part of the the dramatic.

SPEAKER_01: 47:45

There's a big like the debate, you know, the debate among survivors, the debate among people like before we found the ship, like did it break up, did it not? So there's a lot of I think there's a lot of implications there. And then you also don't have like the same debris field that you have that Robert Ballard finds. So you don't so then like the world of RMS Titanic Inc., the world of artifacts of Ballard, like that all looks different because he found the wreck based on the debris field.

SPEAKER_03: 48:15

Yeah. So maybe it's not Ballard that finds it, but that's that's another that's the one for another. That is one for another diagram.

SPEAKER_01: 48:23

That is one. We do have a I'll go ahead and reveal, we do have a really interesting one. I would like to record soon. I think it's the next one I would like to do when we have time is the what if Robert Ballard took a teaspoon from the wreck. I think that we need to do that one. That was your idea. I'll credit you with that. Um I think that one has so many.

SPEAKER_03: 48:41

That's unlike me to come up with an idea related to RMST and the discovery of the rack. No, I was so out of character.

SPEAKER_01: 48:49

I was thinking about checking your health, check your temperature. Um, yeah, no, I I think like we've I think we need to do one of these where we can have some bigger conversations about the artifacts and stuff. So and the all the ethical because I mean you and I haven't talked about RMS Titanic Inc. enough. We probably need to give people a couple more hours of content.

SPEAKER_03: 49:10

I'm sure they're I think that's probably if people ever leave this podcast, that's why they've they've not had enough of RMS T bashing.

SPEAKER_01: 49:18

Yeah, I'll just blame you. If I have a mass exodus, I'll blame you um for not bashing them enough. Um, all right. Well, we did it. And Pablo lives in the UK, so I think it's um like you're probably hungry. Dinner time for it.

SPEAKER_03: 49:34

Dinner time for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:35

And um, I've got to go check on these, you know, children that are mine. So um that was good. I think that was fun, and I think we needed to do that to get some of this out of our system. So when we do future what-ifs, we can kind of refocus on some different ones. And then these all kind of existed in the same like little bubble, and we needed to sort of pop them out and and knock them off the list. So that was good. Um, what's your what's your goodbye message for people today?

SPEAKER_03: 50:04

I didn't think of one, did I? So not to not to go on a tangent too much, but there is another podcast that many people will have known, which is Titanic Scene by Scene.

SPEAKER_01: 50:14

Yeah, of course. We were both on it. We were both on it.

SPEAKER_03: 50:17

Yeah, yeah. But I was very disappointed because on the episode that I did, um, when they were when they were ending it, I said, I said to the two guys, I was like, you need to end it by saying senior. As in like see ya, but senior. Senior.

SPEAKER_00: 50:35

Senior.

SPEAKER_03: 50:35

I was like, I was so proud of this, and then they never picked up on that idea, and I was really upset about it. No, I mean I wasn't really upset about it. But I was like, that's I was so proud of coming up this way of being like senior, but I'm trying to decide if that makes if it's rolls off the tongue.

SPEAKER_01: 50:50

Senior.

SPEAKER_03: 50:51

Well, because they were they were saying so.

SPEAKER_01: 50:53

Almost sounds like you're saying senior though, in a in like at least in the American like accent.

SPEAKER_03: 50:58

Yeah, but we don't really have, yeah, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01: 51:00

No, but I I do I do give that an A, though. That's a good one. I'm terrible at coming up.

SPEAKER_03: 51:06

So that's why I was like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 51:09

Yeah, I think it's good. Yeah, I'm terrible at coming up with anything on the fly. So props. Like I would never have come up with that. Um, okay. What's your what's your you you can just say a normal goodbye today? You gotta think about it for the next one. Um, as always, thank you for coming to talk about all this with me.

SPEAKER_00: 51:28

It's always happy to tell the title.

SPEAKER_01: 51:31

We're guys, we're way too excited to talk. Like, like let us know if you want more. It brings us great happiness. And I don't know what that says about us, but um, no, thank you. And we'll um, you know, we're recording, we record them in batches. So as we're recording this, we've got a couple to send your way, and then we'll kind of regroup in the near future and do a couple of more. But um, yeah, I think and I think it's good that we space them out because it's good to give our brains some time to kind of think of new ideas and and look at new sources and stuff. So um, okay, well, LA out.

SPEAKER_03: 52:05

Thank you, and good night.