World Doula Day (Part 1)

Host Amber-Rose discusses World Doula Day with special guests OC Gorman and Krystal Tsosie. OC Gorman is Full Spectrum Indigenous Doula working in the Phoenix area and she shares her journey about becoming a Doula and the important roles of a Doula during pregnancy and birth. Krystal Tsosie is a mother who shares her experience of having a Doula present during her pregnancy and birthing journey. In this episode, we want to honor Doulas and encourage others to utilize Doulas services during their pregnancy and birthing experience. World Doula Day is recognized on March 22.

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This podcast was sponsored by the Arizona Department of Health Services through federal funding from the Health Resources & Services Administration, with support from the Navajo Native American Research Centers for Health (NARCH) Partnership between Diné College and Northern Arizona University through federal funding from the National Institute of Health’s National Institute of General Medical Sciences, award number S06GM142121. The views expressed are the sole responsibility of the program staff and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Arizona Department of Health Services or the United States Government.

Transcript

IntroYa'at'eeh. Welcome to the MCH podcast where we discuss maternal and child health topics and provide strategies for improving the health of Navajo families. Amá dóó áłchíní ats’íís baa áháyá baa yadelti (Translation, we will be talking about the health of mothers and children).

Amber-Rose
Today we're going to talk with Indigenous doula OC Gorman in recognition of World Doula week. That was on March 22nd through the 28. O.C. Gorman is a full-spectrum Indigenous doula working in the Phoenix area. Thank you for joining me today, and I'd like you to introduce yourself, please.

OC
Yá'át'ééh. Shí éí OC Gorman yinishyé. Tó aheedlíínii nishle. Kinyaa'aanii ei bashichiin. Tsé jínkiní ei dashicheii. Tsi'naajinii dashinali. My name is OC Gorman, and I go by she/her/adzáán. I'm Water flows together clan. I'm born for Towering House. My maternal grandfather is of the Cliff Dwellers Honeycomb Rock Clan, and my paternal grandfather is of the Black Streak Wood people clan. Yeah! Based on my bio today, I'm an auntie, I'm an art maker, and I'm a work nerd. I'm an indigenous full spectrum doula, and I was trained by Indigenous midwives to be a Doula from the Zaagiidiwin organization, aishanabii, and Diné ladies from Canada. I am a South phoenix healthy start community Doula here in Phoenix, Arizona. I'm an indigenous breastfeeding counselor, and I was trained by Kimberly  Moore- Salas and Camie Goldhammer who run the indigenous breastfeeding counselor trainings. I'm also a pregnancy and infancy loss advocate, and I was trained by Nica Hall. I'm a birth worker. I'm an indigenous birth worker. And yeah, that's who I am.
 
Amber-Rose
That's awesome. Thank you. In your own words, what is a Doula?

OC
Okay, well, first of all, I'm not going to do my own words first. So initially, Amanda Singer who is of the Navajo Nation Breastfeeding Coalition, and then the Diné Doula collective both to which I belong. She posted this thing on Facebook the other day that I feel like really helpful. Doulas are the most trusted aunties, they will speak up for you, for space for you, and take care of you. And for me, that like really hit it like really specifically because I feel like that's what we are. I feel like from an indigenous perspective like we're your aunties, we're your relatives. And then one of the first things that we did during our training, our Zaagiidiwin training, which was held back home in Fort Defiance or Window Rock and Fort Defiance, our first session in our training, you know, was it a Hogan and Rita Gilmore, a traditional woman was there, and she was the one who began our training, and she was just like, your job is to be a relative. Like introduce yourself by your clans, take care of people like they're your relatives, like, you know, community, kinship, K'é- all of that is central to what being a Doula is. So in our language, there really isn't a word for Doula, you know. That's one of the reasons why I lead with, I'm an auntie, I'm a relative, I'm your relative, and I'm going to take care of you like that. So for me, it's about taking care of people, holding space, and being an advocate. You know, we live in these United States where black and indigenous birthing people are most at risk for negative outcomes, the highest mortality/morbidity rates, especially here in Arizona. As a black or indigenous birthing person, you're 3 to 4 more times likely to die in childbirth. So for me as an advocate, I think it's really important for me to know and understand how multifaceted identities and that history play out in a medical setting. So, you know, I kind of that traditional role of being a relative mixed in with that understanding of being an advocate in a medical setting. So for me, we doulas are there to share information, and to support emotionally, mentally, and physically, and that can be a wide range of what that can be depending on the doula and depending on what kind of doula works. I think doulas are a really broad term and it's one I know that within our Diné doulas, we struggle with because, you know, it's I think it's a Greek word and it's not ours, you know. But that's something that is within the wider context of birth work is understood as a position. And the work that we do does fall in line with that, with that word in some regard, I should say, depending on who you ask. So a doula, there are many different kinds. It's a support person who is going to be helping the person, the person that they're working with, the family that they're working with to navigate childbirth, to navigate a pregnancy. And for me, when you know there are fertility doulas, family planning doulas, there are pregnancies/prenatal doulas, birth doulas, postpartum doulas, there's grief and loss, pregnancy loss, miscarriage, doulas, there's adoptions, surrogacy, there are abortion doulas. So really, it's just helping people through, you know, whatever reproductive process they're going through and whatever outcome that is. So for me, as a full spectrum doula, I'm going to support anyone in any one of those situations and, you know, help give them guidance and navigate that situation because it's like a lot, you know, reproductive stuff is a lot like being pregnant or thinking about being pregnant or just being a birthing person is a lot. It can be overwhelming, and there's a lot of information. And not everyone, not all that information, and not everyone out there who is a medical professional is going to be meant for you.  I know. That's a lot. I know. I kind of like all went all over the place

Amber-Rose Yes, thank you. No, it's very helpful and understanding to hear it in that way. Because you think for me, you know, I think doula, I think, oh, pregnancy. But I never thought of like other things that occur during a pregnancy or when you're reproducing. And you need support in those situations. So I love how you find it, and I love how you lead with, you know, you're an auntie and, you know, K'é is kind of the most important thing when it comes to, you know, Navajo people, I guess, working together and building those relationships. I love how you lead with that, and that's really awesome. So I'm going to go on to the next question. What inspired you to become a doula?

 OC So I always run with the comparison, but because, you know, I'm in the birthmark world and I talk to a lot of people who do all different manner of birth work, and so much of it is instilled in their family, is instilled in the way they are brought up and they're wanting to have kids, you know, their experience as a parent. And that is exactly not where I came from. So I never even thought of birth work, not until I was like in my thirties and I'm turning 40 this year. So I never really knew what I wanted to do with my life in general. I went to college, I went to ASU, and got a bachelor's in political science. More as an interest, not as a career outlook. And I didn't really have any idea what I wanted to do. After I graduated, I was really lucky, and I got a receptionist job at the Arizona State University International Student Office. And basically, you know, within a couple of months I went from being a receptionist to being an international student advisor. So I was advising students on immigration, culture, you know, the transition, culture shock, all that kind of stuff. And I was there for five years. And then I realized like, woah, I'm moving up in the ranks of this, and I don't even know if this is what I want to do. It was just something I was good at. It was something I was going with. So I took a year off and kind of just like was a barista and hung out and traveled, and I did shenanigans. And then I was uh I need to find a job. And I found a job in Massachusetts at a little untraditional college called Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts. And I went out there. I worked there for six years. And this school, you know, I always thought of myself as someone who really understood politics and understood kind of where I stood in terms of being in the United States as an indigenous woman or someone who was fad, as someone who, you know, had held a bunch of different identities, but, you know, through the school, they really took on a radical political lens and the students that I worked with. So I was working at a cultural center, and I helped run the cultural center there. So I was working with about a population of about, you know, two or 300 black and brown students who had just amazing political mind, just so politically, critically astute that, you know, they were introducing a lot of different concepts that I didn't, I felt as a brown person in this country and I experience. But I'd never had the words to really kind of flesh out what it is, what my experience was or anything. So, you know, I'm learning about critical race theory, and I'm learning about different kinds of feminisms. And I'm, you know, I'm putting language to all these things that I've experienced as a Navajo person in this world. I've seen injustices happening all over the place. All of these things are happening. And, you know, this whole time, you know, having kids was out of my mind. I don't have kids now, but it's not out of my mind cause I work with pregnant people all the time. But, you know, I was just doing my thing. I was running a cultural center. I was working with kids, I was being an advocate. I was working in a predominantly white institution and dealing with what that was in a very white, white New England. And then I at the school I was at, they have a really large conference called the Clip Conference, which is civil liberties and public policy, and it was from abortion rights to reproductive justice rights. And so it centered on all things reproductive justice. And so, you know, as we know, intersection, being intersectional and having different understandings of different kinds of areas of justice, you know, so there's racial justice, there's, you know, disability justice, there's class justice, you know, all these things are different intersections. And so reproductive justice was not something I had some understanding, but I can't say that I was super well versed. So I went to this conference and there the conference there's panelists of doulas. So my first experience with Doula were actually indigenous to us. And just hearing about the work that they did and how the work that they did with reproductive justice was intersecting with racial justice, class issues, you know, class justice issues as well as environmental justice issues. I feel like my eyes were really like I had a different understanding. And when I first heard the numbers of the mortality and morbidity rates for black and indigenous birthing, people like my mind was blown. The fact that so many people, birthing people, black and brown people, are dying in our hospitals and those numbers are not decreasing, they're actually increasing in the United States, all across the board, but especially amongst black and brown people. And once I learned that I was like, I mean, I won't tell you what actually said because it's a podcast, but, you know, I was like, my mind was fricking blown, and I was really upset, really angry. You know, I had the rage. Well, I already had the rage, but it was like even rage-er. And I was like, How can this be happening? And of course, it could be happening. And then, like, thinking back about my experiences with Indian Health Services, my experiences and all of the medical situations I've ever been in, especially as a fat brown person, I was just like, Of course, of course they're not listening to us. Of course they don't understand that we have traditional practices that date to time immemorial that are not that are creating an either even bigger, you know, disconnect, I guess I should say. And so, you know, learning about this, it was like right at the time my little sister got pregnant. So with the six-year-old that I was telling you about and, you know, I learned about doulas, I was now starting to begin to be interested in it. And I was just like, whoa, my little sister is going to be having this experience and I'm way across the country, and there's nothing that I can do to be helpful. There's nothing that, you know, she's going to be you know, we have other sisters and siblings, and my mom's here and my aunt is here and stuff, but for some reason I was like, it has to be me, and ends up not being me. I was on Skype, I think at the time. We were still doing Skype. There wasn't Zoom, so I was technically virtually present for the birth. But, you know, hearing about her experience and hearing more and more about the friends and family that I had, the experience they were having, I was like, no, this can't be possible. By the end of that year, after she had her baby, I moved home. I was her 100% childcare provider, and she and my family supported me through doula trainings and continuous training and kind of finding, you know, what that was. So for me, I grew up traditional in a manner of speaking. My family is very traditional, but I grew up with, you know, not always being around my family, especially my dad's side of the family who are more traditional. I had a Kinaadla, I'm from Naazlani. I want to shout it out. But I grew up not speaking Navajo and my parents were really adamant about like really concerned about not making sure that none of their daughters had teenage pregnancy. So, like, no talking about the babies. No, they didn't want us to have any boyfriends. At the Kinaadla, they did not allow any babies or kids. So during my Kinaadla, I was not taking care of kids. They were just like, No, you're out of here. So for me, you know, not really having any connection to this idea, not really knowing anything, what it's like to be, you know, even considering those things on a regular basis or being or, you know, I never had parents who were like, when you having kids, you know, it's never happened to me. So, you know, so it was kind of like birth was never in my mind until it was there in my life, you know? And so, you know, learning all these things, I'm like, I'm in a position to help people because I do have an understanding of how history is playing out today. You know, this the different health disparities that we have. I you know, I have that understanding and knowledge. And I also just have the want. I want to help people. I want people to be healthy. I want them to have not just a healthy baby and a healthy mom. I want them to have a connection and a love for the experience that they have. I don't want people to walk away from my birth experience traumatized and like, I survived birth. You know, like, forget that. Furthermore, the whole like, societal idea of what verses is so entrenched in this idea of pain like that. Yeah. You feel pain. Everyone feels pain. They're going to have a baby, but they don't talk about the mental, the emotional, the spiritual, and the traditional ways within the ways that our bodies move through that whole process. And it's like you're going to feel pain. But first of all, you know, that pain is not some foreign pain. That pain is a ceremonial process. And just like any ceremony, yeah, it might come with pain, and it might come with this discomfort. But that is a sacred pain and a sacred discomfort. And there's a way to manage that. There's a way to work through it, and there's a way to have that loving connection to the process which you're going through. You know, that is part of a sacred ceremony. It's not just pain. And, you know, because birth has been taken so far away from our traditional practices, the way that we know ourselves, the way that we know our bodies, the way that we know our birth ways and all of our life ways. And it's been moved to a sterile environment like a, you know, that really, you know, is set up in a way that really doesn't benefit the whole birthing process. And right now, I, you know, even abortion like the way that abortion is handled, the way miscarriage is handled like that is not our way. And so there is a huge disconnect. And for me, I want to be a bridge. I'm learning, and I have learned a lot. And I'm still going to continue to learn our traditional birth ways. And that's something that I want to help people find if they don't have it or to help support them in the things that they know. You know, a lot of people know a lot that they don't even know. You know, I just had a prenatal appointment with someone yesterday and she's like, yeah, I don't know anything about it. But then I start talking about, like, taboos. And she's like, Oh, yeah, I know that my mom said it. You know, I'm like, Yes, you do know this. And this is a part of who you are, and this is a part of your birth. This is the part of the way that you're carrying this baby and you're bringing a new life into this world. Yeah, I kind of just like, you know, all of the little dots are connecting, and I like, you know, I'm like, I, we need we need people who could do this, and I'm here. I'm ready. I want to do this. I want to make sure that people, you know, have a good experience and get home safe.

Amber-rose Right. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I'm really taking in everything you're saying and like, just, like, agreeing and like, yes, on the side. So part of my job, I also mentor our high school students and teach them about, like public health, about research, and about the, you know, just public health professions. And one thing they always ask is like, I don't or the one thing they say like, I don't know what I want to do. I don't know, like, like when they go off to college, I don't know what I should be doing. And we always tell them like, it's okay, it's okay. You don't have to know right away. And I think, you know, you're a great example of seeing something that needs to be changed, and you're helping to bring about that change. And I think that's, you know, something that we've all done to get to where we're at right now. Like myself, you know, I wanted to be in health, but I didn't want to be a nurse. I didn't want to, you know, so I found public health, and I was like, hey, this is the greatest area for me because I don't want to be on the clinical side. I want to be in the community, you know, connecting with people and talking about their health. And so I love that you said you are a bridge, you know, between, you know, the bringing back the traditional birthing practices and teaching and supporting and advocating families who want to do that. That's so awesome. So, can you tell us about your experience becoming a doula? Like what kind of education or training did you need?

OC So I'm going to talk about mine. But first I do want to say that while I do feel like being a Doula is a community health worker, it's not a medical professional. So actually in all reality, it's unregulated. So right now you could call yourself a Doula and your doula without any experience, without any training. That being said, that those are a lot of states are starting to try and regulate for multiple reasons. And there are a lot of trainings and a lot of hospitals have hospital policies where you need to be "certified." So first and foremost, certified usually means that they want you to be trained and be a member of some kind of national doula l organization. That's not my bag. So the reality is, you know, one of the things that I feel strongly about and this was also something that our trainers here, Zaagiidiwin felt very strongly about, an organization does not certify me, my community, my elders, our medicine people- these people certify me. These are the people who are going to be the ones who are like, there's going to be a board that, like, you're accountable. But like, you know, if people don't like the work that I'm doing, there's are consequences and repercussions of working within a community and not treating people well or not being the support that you said you are, especially with the traditional side of things. You know, I can't just go running my mouth off. I can't just be making crap up, you know, I have to know what I know, and I have to be able to have resources to continue learning that knowledge, so certification, smerftification. So training. So I attended the Zaagiidiwin training. It was four days, and it was back home. And I believe for, you know, I think there are I'm not sure if there are any other organizations that travel far like that. So as far as I know, they're from Canada. They do a lot of trainings in North America for Indigenous doula training, specifically within Indigenous communities for Indigenous people. I know again, Tia Women United has a doula program that's indigenous. So there are like different areas where you could find an Indigenous one. However, if you know, depending on what community you're part of, you know, one of the reasons why is we don't really, as far as any of us are aware, we didn't really have an organization that had a Diné Doula program. Right. So we brought I say we I didn't I attended. But the Navajo Nation Breastfeeding Coalition Training, Two Women United Institute, and here's one other organization I took anyways they partnered, and they brought Zaagiidiwin out. So it's a four-day training. We had a medicine women there. We did a lot of the training about anatomy, comfort measures, history. We talked about genocide and colonization and how it played a role in it. It was pretty, pretty intensive. So it was all-day training for four days. And since then, the Diné Doula collective has stayed, we basically, the Diné Doula Collective as part of kind of, like,  Amanda Singer runs both. So, you know, we all support each other in trying to get more training. Technically, I did take clients based on that training. So since then, I've attended multiple other trainings. So like I said, I'm trained in pregnancy and infancy loss advocacy, trained as the breastfeeding counselor. I also have attended a national organization called Kappa. I've attended a postpartum training. I attended a donor doula training. So, yeah, you continue to keep taking trainings through conferences, through other things. There are a lot of organizations that can doula trainings. So there's the larger national ones like Dawn and Kappa. Those are really large. And then there are smaller ones that do trainings for Doula. So some of these trainings really differ. So some of them are going to be like, you have to take a week long training, you have to read x many books, you have to do a test, you have to do so many shadow births before you can go out on your own, that kind of thing. So each training is going to be different. What I think, though, is that really I mean, this is how my mind works. As soon as I get one training, it kind of fleshes out an outline for all the other trainings I had to take. Like, okay, I learn more now how to do this and this and this and this. So there's a lot of different trainings that are a bit more that are really, really beneficial for anyone, you know, if you're going to be a Doula. So what I would recommend, especially depending on who you want to work with. So if you're working with Indigenous black and indigenous populations, you know, you have to you have to be trauma-informed. You have to understand class issues. You have to understand these things in order because the people that you're serving might be coming from, you know, all different kinds of situations that you're going to be helping with. But also you're in a lot of the standard trainings don't cover different identities like disability, like LGBTQA+, or, you know, all of the other things that I just mentioned, like people they don't cover, people who have substance abuse issues or addiction issues. They're not, you know. So if you're depending on who you're planning to work with, there's definitely going to be trainings for you and definitely things that you want to seek out and attend those.

Amber-Rose Okay, Thank you. So are you able to provide Navajo traditional birthing practices in your area? Because I know you said you're based out of Phoenix, right?

OC Yeah. So I'm not lik I'm not in medicine person in the way that I would be performing or doing prayers or ceremonies. What I can do is, first of all, resource and referral. So I'm versed in kind of the everyday traditional aspects of births. So like I was saying, like do's and don'ts, taboos, understanding kind of which ceremonies and prayers people might need throughout the process. And I can be like, you know, this is something that you should look into too. If someone needs help finding a medicine person, that can help them. Also, just different plant medicines that are traditional to us. Knowing about the importance of different cradle boards, you know, like knowing these different materials that we have and helping acquire them. So it's kind of the the broader idea of the traditional practices of being like, okay, these are some things we need, these are some things that you can get prepared, you know, in trying to help them again, navigate that process. So I wouldn't be performing any ceremonies. I would be like, okay, this is what kind of ceremonies you might need, or you might want to do. And let's see about what your connections are like to get that. My understanding is that before COVID there were like medicine men who would come be in the area and perform certain things for people for a living down here. I don't really know what that looks like. I have heard of people who had babies here who were like, "Yeah, they came down here and did this for me." But I know that there aren't a lot of people who are traveling these days, so I know a lot of times people are going back home for those kinds of things. You know, one of the common one is having a blessingway sometimes once or twice throughout a pregnancy. See, sometimes people have others for different reasons, but kind of just letting them know those kinds of things that everyone knows what is going to be needed. Like I said, I don't think I know everything, but I'm continuing to learn. 

 Amber-Rose Mmmhmm. Okay. Thank you. And I recently had one of my cousins. Well, she just gave birth a week ago, and yeah, Thank you. I know it's the first baby in a while for our family, so we're so happy. But she was having trouble finding a doula. So do you have recommendations for finding doula services and also choosing the right doula?

OC So she wants to find or if someone wants to find a Diné doula, I would say there are two really, no, three really easy ways to find someone because first of all, there are not that many Diné doulas and most likely we all know of each other or heard of each other, or probably are about to meet each other. So one of the ways is to contact the Navajo Nation Breastfeeding Coalition or the Changing Women Institute, and they do referrals. They try to refer our Diné doulas or sometimes if there's no Diné doulas, they'll try and work with the doula who has experience or working with Navajo people or are currently living on the Rez or in one of the border towns. The third easy way is to contact me. Let me be your doula.  Oh, no. I mean, yes, of course I would do it. But I know people who are doulas and I will also make referrals. So a lot of the referrals that I've gotten are from other doulas or from Navajo lactation consultants, also from the Navajo Nation Breastfeeding Coalition. So it's kind of like we all know each other and we all know someone who's pregnant, and if we're not taking them, we try and help people find someone else. But organizations, I know it's hard to remember a specific name. Navajo Nation Breastfeeding Coalition, Changing Women Institute. The easiest ways to find. As far as finding the right doula. That's such a good question because first and foremost, I think you really need someone that you can trust, someone, I mean, you're going to be going through the most intimate moments of your life, and you don't just want someone that you don't click with. You know what I mean? Like, you really have to trust your instinct, and like the vibe, you really have to vibe with someone. And that's like a silly way to put it, but you really need to be able to have a good feeling about them, you know what I mean? But also, I think asking a lot of questions, asking your concerns, asking when I say a lot of questions, I mean, you can ask them what are their values? What do they think about certain things? You know what I mean? Like, if I was trying to have a doula interview, I would be asking them, like, have you worked with that client? Have you worked with someone who is having a baby over 40? What are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on advocating? Not all doulas think or say who you know are going through these really specific situations and you want to know more about that person. And I think because you're going to be building a bond with them, I think asking them where they're from, what brought them into this, why are they interested in supporting you? Like it's kind of like a job interview when you have your first meeting with someone to see if it's a good fit, you know, and letting people know right off the bat, like I might be seeing some other people and I'll let you know. You know, it's like a job interview in all actuality. You know, I think you have to be prepared to go in there and ask them questions. What do they do? What are they about? If you're Navajo and they're Navajo, and they don't, and you want someone who is bringing you all of the doula stuff plus the traditional aspect of it, I mean, that person should probably be telling you their clans, telling you where they're from, asking about yours. I feel like that's like a basic thing. I know there are some people who like, some Navajo people who have met with some other people and depending on how they introduce themselves and brought themselves to them in this way, you know, it kind of was like, okay, well, maybe you're not the right person for me, and then we find someone else, and that's fine because just because you're a Navajo doula doesn't mean that you're going to want to center the traditional pathways, you know? And so that's something that you have to really be consider of and ask questions. You know, what is it that you're looking for? What is it that you're going to need? What are you most looking forward to? Let them know, see what they say. It's a conversation, right?

Amber-Rose Yeah. Thank you for suggesting those questions, because I want to have known, too. Like, ask your background. Where are you from? And you know what are your values? I guess I'm just, you know, I try to be careful with what I say and what I ask. I don't want to, I'm that kind of person that doesn't want to say the wrong thing or offend anybody. But yeah, that's so true.

OC I mean, you don't want to offend anyone. But at the same time, from my perspective, this person is going to be as close to you, like if it's only your mom in the room and this person. You need to know that they have your back. That doesn't mean that they have to agree with you in all regards, but they also, if you're going to say something to me or that could be construed as offensive, you know, I would have to think about am I the best person for them? And that's okay, too. You know, I personally have not had a situation where I've been like, I refuse to work with you. But I do know some other doulas who have had a bad interaction with people and that, you know, they're not going to leave them high and dry. They're going to say, you know, I don't think we're a good fit. Let me see if I can find someone for you. Or do you need help finding someone else. Because it is a thing. I don't usually as a doula, I'm not usually asking people a lot of questions that they might be offended but I personally wouldn't feel offended if they asked me a certain question that seemed personal at the time, because they're going to be knowing me in a very personal situation, and I don't have to answer that question, you know what I mean? But at least I know where they're coming from. And I can, you know, and that's also a good way for, you know, if someone asked me a question and I'm like, yeah, that might be a little bit much for a first meeting, but ask me again in like five meeting or three meetings or two meetings, you know what I mean? And you could see what that vibe is like. If they're offended and they don't like it, then maybe this is not a good working relationship. If they're like, okay, yeah, you're right, you know, I see you. Okay, I'm going to I'm going to remember, I'm going to ask you later, you know, then good. You know, then you can be like, okay, we have an understanding that I have boundaries and you have questions, and we can see what that's going to look like as we continue to work with each other. I mean, you got to look for those red flags. You also got to look for the green flags, too. How are people going to be responsive to you. You know, for me, especially from my understanding of I know a lot of people are like, you know, politics isn't a thing. Like for me it is. And I don't mean politics like my views on the world and laws. I mean the politics like respectability, politics, professionalism, politeness, like all these different societal stances, not in our culture, the world that we live in by ideas of professionalism, the ideas of politeness, the ideas of providing comfort to people who are doing us harm. That's based in white supremacy, that's based on racism, that's based on capitalism, that's based in all of those kinds of things that I don't mess with. So, you know, for me, you know, my job isn't to be the number one professional. My job is to make sure that you're taken care of, and you feel comfortable. And for me, what that would look like as a professional is that I have boundaries and you have boundaries, and we're going to be openly communicative about how we feel. And if it's not a good working relationship, we can move past this by finding someone else who can take care of you in the way that you need to be taken care of. Just because I don't agree with you does not mean or even if I don't like you does not mean that I want something bad for you. I want you to be happy, healthy, to be taken care of, just not by me. I mean, you know, that also I mean, my personality is also very direct. So I know a lot of people don't have that same thing, so it's a little bit difficult. What I would say, you know, you want to be able to talk to this person like a friend, like a relative. You know, you want your communication to feel that way, you know, like a healthy relationship with someone who's part of your personal circle. So, you know, if you get a bad vibe, no, nip it in the butt or find someone new.  

Amber-Rose Mhm. Awesome. So, I had a teenage pregnancy. My oldest, Leo. He's 15 now. And you know, now that I'm in this work and I'm learning more about birth work and what doulas do, and I learned the term birth plan. And so I was wondering if you could describe that for our audience and for me.  

OC Yeah.  Well, even within the birth world, the term birth plan is, like, highly controversial. I mean, I say that with, like, kind of. But yeah, so a birth plan for me, my personal perspective is that for me, there are two important parts of a birth plan. It's you getting informed and having an understanding of what your options are. And number two, thinking about what your priorities are in terms of what your birth vision is, what you want. So a birth plan will have a very elaborate birth plan. Some people just have a bullet list. It's really kind of you have all this information about the different kinds of things that can happen in a birth and you kind of are like, okay, this is what I want. So it's kind of like a list of intentions or kind of like your top choices. But all the while knowing that a lot of things can go unexpected or unplanned in birth. So it's not a contract. It's not a guarantee. It's about you understanding and knowing what it is, what the options are, what scenarios are, knowing what you would like, and knowing if that's not going to happen. What is it that you don't want and then communicating that with your birth team. So anyone who's going to be in the room with you, including the doctors and nurses. So some people have a printout and some people just communicate with their provider in advance. It depends, but it's about communication. Like, people are not going to know what it is that you want out of your birth experience if you don't tell them. So one of the easiest ways is to people have like one sheet, kind of like a little bit of a resume or a menu of like, okay, this is what I would like, if we could do this, this is what I want. If all goes well, this is what it should look like. If not, at least I know the other things that could happen. And I can make an informed decision when that when we get to that point. You know, so for me, it's about learning and understanding your options and also communicating with your birth team what it is that you want. So on the birth plan, it can cover depending on who you are and what you want, and how detailed that you would like to be. It can range from all kinds of things, so some things that could be in a birth plan are, first of all, where are you giving birth? Who is your medical provider? Who else is going to be in the room with you? What roles would you like them to fulfill? Do you want in terms of pain management? Do you want people to offer a massage? Do you want to be helped into different labor positions? Do you want essential oils? Do you want music? Do you want pictures and affirmations? Two, the more medical-related stuff. Are you keeping your placenta? Who's picking up your placenta? Do you want a delayed cord clamping? How do you feel about episiotomy? How do you feel about interventions and inductions? If you're having a home birth, what's going to happen in the event that you might have to transfer to a hospital? You know, so there's all these different aspects that so many people don't know that they have options. So one of the first things that I tell all the people that I work with is, number one, you are in charge of your birth. You are, not the doctor. The doctor is not in charge. The hospital nurse, doula, mom, or anyone else is not in charge. You are in charge of your birth, and that means you have to have ownership. You have to be informed. You have to know what is happening. You have to be able to ask questions. And so with all of that in mind, you know, when you choose not to be informed, even if some people decide not to do a birth plan, but they do decide to get informed on birth dates and childbirth education classes, they have a doula, they do their own research, but they don't have a plan, but they are able to communicate and ask questions when it's happening. People who go in unprepared are in a sense, and this is not to blame anyone, but in a sense, you're allowing someone else to make decisions. Medical health professionals and I'm not putting them down, medical providers are, you know, they have certain things that they have to fulfill. Number one, they know they're training there. There are also hospital policy and liability issues. They also have their own things. Some of the decisions that medical providers make are based on what they like, what their preferences are, and what they think they should have it. You know, it's not a requirement. It's not a medical necessity. But they want to do things quick. They have an opinion about this. And they're just you know, if you know, if you're saying, I don't know, then they might try and persuade you to do it a different way. And that's not necessarily bad depending on the scenario. I mean, there are definitely scenarios where it's a, you know, a very risky and dangerous situation where the doctors go to do what they need to do. But for the most part, there are a lot of decisions that can be made that are not life-threatening. And it's not up to the doctor. I mean, how many people who have to endure a lot of birth trauma because the doctor made a decision on their own that, you know, sure they live and sure they have a healthy baby. But, you know, things happen to them in that situation and where it is painful mentally, emotionally, and physically and can continue to be painful for a long period of time. So being informed and communicating is really, really important. Being transparent with your choices, and asking questions to your medical provider. A lot of people don't want an abortion. Of course, no one wants an abortion. It's a major surgery. But how many people have asked the provider, what is your surgery? what's your C-section rate here at this hospital? How what is your rate for C-sections? How often do your patients know and are these medically necessary or was this something that they opted into? And was it based on your recommendation? Like there are people these days who do feel better scheduling a C-section, cesarean, than having a baby? And that's another story. But for the people who don't, they have to ask that question. Under what circumstances do you recommend this and under what circumstances or, you know, what is going to be your response if I refuse it and decide to wait, you know what I mean, like you have to have these conversations upfront with your medical provider- asking the hospital, seeing where they stand and talking to your nurse, letting them know what you want, even the point if a lot of people also see you in pain. It's hard to see people in pain day in, day out. A lot of medical providers will offer an epidural. A lot of people don't want an epidural. And so it's the point where some people have to say, do not offer me an epidural. And people don't know they can say, no, I don't want that. I don't want you to offer to me. Do not talk to me about it again. Having a plan is also really good if you have a longer birth just because of shift changes and different people come in explaining over and over what it's going to be there.

Amber-Rose So I don't know if I made the connection, but you know, having a baby while I was young, I didn't know anything when it came to pregnancy, labor, and delivery and then postpartum and what was I supposed to do with my baby afterward. So now I'm becoming, like, more informed. You know, I'm I know now that there are options that can be made. So I really do want to kind of like just emphasize that, you know, birthing people have options on how their pregnancy is going to go, how the labor delivery is going to go, and even afterward. And I feel like it's just hearing from other people about their experience of having a doula; it just seems like it makes it so much easier to decide, you know, your birth plan, decide, you know, figure out what those options are and how you can, you know, better get that support throughout pregnancy. So yeah, I love the work that is being done with doulas and their clients. One other thing I remember that came up when my cousin was looking for a doula. Doesn't insurance like Medicaid cover doula services?

OC It depends on insurance providers to cover it in terms of like Medicaid or here in Arizona ACCCHS, I don't think so. So usually, through insurance plans, it might not be covered as an actual service, but a lot more people are used either at HSA or FSA to pay for it. I think that in terms of like state or governmental medical program like programs, it really depends on the state. I think there are few states who as often as it should be, but really you have to ask your insurance provider because each provider is going to be different in each package that your employer is going to have. It's going to vary. But I would say for the most part, if you have an insurance through your employer or private insurance, probably HSA or FSA is probably the route that you would go, but it can be wild. So some people even go up to like thousands of dollars for doula services. And I say wild because I'm thinking of it in terms as if I was the client and someone asked me to pay $2,000 out of pocket, I'd be like, like you like a cartoon with my eyes opening, you know. I'm like what! Like its a lot. But as a doula, we should be paid more than 2000. So, okay, so in all seriousness, so I'm going to say that the majority, and I can't speak for everybody, but a lot of the indigenous and Diné doulas that I work with we understand and know our communities. The majority of the indigenous and Diné doulas that I know, we have an understanding of the socioeconomic situation that our communities are in. For me, I'm a pay-what-you-can doula if you have $0. That's how much I cost. If you have more money and you would like to pay more and there are people who have, then I will take that because especially from an indigenous and Diné perspective, you know, for the work that we do, there should be an exchange, some kind of energy exchange. I know a lot of indigenous doulas who take trade, who take, you know, if you have teachings of songs, of language if you have plant medicine, they're willing to accept these as payment. Through the Navajo Nation Breastfeeding Coalition, the DNR, do that work for them, even if you can't pay. We start like I said are you can or sliding scale you know you still want to pay your rent and stuff but we try. I know a lot of us are trying to get payment through different organizations instead of putting the costs on our clients. There are a lot of different programs that also pay for doulas. So if you're working with a midwife, sometimes part of their costs cover do the work doulas that are contracted through them. I am a doulas through the healthy start here in South Phenix and they do client referrals for me and they pay me a stipend. So it's cost free to the people that I work with. So, you know, for me and a lot of indigenous and I do as we we don't want the money aspect of having to pay for to have to stand in. You know, there are going to be doers that you can get that are no to low cost. And I know that can be a little bit difficult. But, you know, all of us are here. We're trying another way that people often pay for does is, you know, they put it on their gift registry, you know, instead of or not, instead of sometimes instead of but also in addition to they can say I'm I'm also raising funds for you. There are different scholarship program based on organization or even just grant funding of different organizations that allow you to use their grant for for you to to hire you on. I mean, we really just want to make it possible for me. Yeah, money's going to stand in the way, the work that we're doing. And I'm not not trying to make myself as unimportant here, but the work that we do can sometimes be life and death. And I think all of us know and understand how important it is to have a support person, a continuous support person throughout your experience that can help help you. You know, we want you to stay safe. We want you to stay healthy. So I think even if there was someone who did charge and you weren't willing to pay, they might be able to help you find someone who is going to be more flexible, even if that just means a long, drawn out payment plan. You know, we want to be your dealer and thank you. What do you think would help do was I mean, it just seems like right now more could be done around reinforcing, I guess, payment or maybe at this I think maybe state and rural levels to ensure that doulas are paid for their services or that they have the right kinds of things in place to make sure that they do get paid other than like the grants and things like that. How do you think that could be changed or what can you do to change that? It's a tricky question specifically for me. So first of all, so I'm in Arizona, So the state of Arizona recently had a bill around trying to have a state certification for duals and so that it would allow for insurance for people to pay with insurance and also for it to be covered under access. It's a really hot topic because I think what you have to kind of go back to what I was saying before, and this is what, you know, as it was coming up in the community discussions, I was very limited, limited. And as a part of the conversation, there were a lot of other black, brown and indigenous jewelers who were there really advocating for us and that, you know, the bills that they were putting forward and the language that was being used really was not speaking to our experience, our training, our health means the disparities that we face, the situations that our clients are and even our own situations. So it became a really hot topic here in Arizona because, you know, the language was basically requiring you to. You know, I'm not going to say what it was you're going to require. I'm going to say it really didn't speak to traditional practices. It didn't speak to the fact that we have had births, workers and relatives who've been doing this work since time immemorial and that we could be trained outside the scope of some certifying body that the state is willing to work with. Also, you know, there were just a lot of ins and outs that just were not speaking to us. We're not speaking to our communities. Do was and also client side of our community. So I, I feel really conflicted about it because I do want people who, you know, people who are on access are, you know, they're already making not a lot of money and they should be allowed to have two services and we want Julius to get paid. That said, the state intervention really puts regular regulation on it. That is really hard for anyone from an indigenous perspective, like how are you going to regulate? Of our traditional practices, our indigenous birth ways. So for me, it's really a difficult question. Like I understand the need for in some way the government to have to be paying and recognizing the work that we do. But in a lot of ways it's difficult because when you get more into it, like, you know, these medical systems were not made for us. So the exact reason why I'm here and a lot of indigenous tools are here are to kind of be that pushback, that challenge, that interruption of these health systems that have been in place that were never for us and in some ways were were meant to, you know, meant to kill us. Mm hmm. So I know that's a really big statement to make. I don't mean individual doctors or sometimes even individual hospitals. I'm talking about the system in itself. So, you know, this health system and health care that we are living in on the state level, on the federal level, on the county level, like these are based in a governmental system that was not meant for us. So for me to think about that same government regulating the work that we do is really difficult and really a longer conversation. You know, so I definitely feel like you should get paid. I definitely feel like the government should pay us because the government owes us. Right. Yes. It's getting out.  

Speaker 2 No.  

Amber-Rose No. But I mean, the work that we're doing is we're saving our people from their health care systems. Mm. They do owe us. And I'm not saying it's just us. You know, I mean, like I think that we are providing support so that people can navigate the experience that saves them. Really, it's the people that we work with who are doing the work that are making better outcomes for themselves. So I don't want to say that like I should be paid because I'm saving lives, you know, but I'm supporting people in the way that they are making it possible for them to have the things that they need in this very sacred experiences they're having. So, you know, do do should we be able to like, pay your rent and eat and, you know, pay for our kids clothes? Yeah. How we do that without being regulated by that same state? I don't.  

Speaker 2 Know.  

Amber-Rose Yeah. It's a question that is is happening within all dual circles and trying to figure out a way through this maze. And I do think that Bill might have passed here in Arizona. I remember. I think it did. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, right now, one of the reasons why I know we're Navajo Nation Breastfeeding Coalition, Amanda and her crew are working really hard at grant funding is because she wants us to be paid. And we're all grappling with trying to figure out how to get paid without someone being in control and defining who and what who we are, what we do, how we do it, and who we serve. You know? Yeah, that's a bigger question. Thank you for your perspective on that. I really appreciated that. Also helps to inform me because I've been grappling with that question myself and I'm not a doula. I don't have any experience with that kind of work, but I would like to become one now that, you know, I had, I guess I would be a grandma right to my cousin's baby. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my, my. Well, I just wanted to make sure that she's, you know, in future, if my cousin does become pregnant again. You know, I would like to help her or other people in my family. I feel like it's just it. I want to take on that role and that responsibility and whether or not, you know, I'm happy to do that for my family. So thank you. Yeah. So the next question, I don't I'm not sure if you might know or can speak to like how many people used to live services or maybe you can like talk about, you know, are are people using Doula services more and more on Navajo and Navajo? Do you feel like it? Yes. But again, with the grain of salt, because, of course, now that I'm a birth worker, I hear about it. Yeah. And it's like on my radar what I'm going to say. Yes. Yes. More and more people are getting informed about do us and getting informed about what is, you know, what to be billable for them in terms of birth support. So I know that there's a lot more interest. People talk to me about it more will share their pregnant family members with me. You know, people are really interested, especially like, yeah, any time people bring it up, like people are very interested to know what my experiences and they're like excited about the possibilities of finding someone who can support them. And I think a lot of that and a lot of the interest that I have, I mean, I'm like dying to ask you about your birth, your birth experience. So, like, a lot of times it's just like once I say I do that people will always tell me their birth experiences. And I first of all, I love that. And sometimes it can be a little bit heartbreaking. But I think a lot of times people don't have never had that place to like process and to, like, have someone hold space for that. So honestly, I feel like that's part of the dual work too. And even people who have had babies can still benefit from from processing. That was a do. But usually it's those people who are moms or parents or grandparents who are like, they find out what it is you do and then they want they want their family to have that kind of support. So they'll go out and try and find someone for them. A lot of the Navajo, I think. So I haven't ever really advertised myself. I think I post about it on Facebook or Instagram sometimes, but I've never like had an ad, but I work pretty steadily and I think it's just a lot by word of mouth. You know, a lot of the referrals I get are from family and from friends and from other jewelers. So they know someone and they trust me or they like me or they feel. About me and they know what you know, what the benefits of a duel could be. And so they were they were like, get in contact with this person. You know, not everyone who you know, I was just talking to a nurse the other day who didn't even know about doulas. And then she immediately, like, wrote down her daughter in law's name on a scrap of paper and was like, I'm telling her you're calling her, you know? So it's just like people, when they find out what it is, they want their family taken care of. And I love that. I love that. It's like family, friends who want their community to be loved and taken care of. So I feel like that's the number one. But definitely there are some some pregnant people and some some other birthing people who who do the research and find out. But I do think that there's a lot more people I think it's coming hand-in-hand with this, with reclamation of traditional ways. You know, reclaiming is really big right now. Decolonizing is really big right now. And when I say big, right now.  

Speaker 2 It's tongue in cheek.  

Amber-Rose Because in some ways it's like, yes, this resurgence is resurrection. And in some ways it's like for some people it's like clout and trendy. But for the most part, people are really earnest and sincere in the ways that they want to reclaim their ways. And, you know, I know there was an article put out about Art Zito in training, and there were a lot of people who were interested in getting support at the time because they were like, This is what I'm looking for. I need guidance and I need help, especially from the traditional side of things. And a lot of our family are either disconnected from us or disconnected from from the teachings. And so they're like, I'm looking for somebody, you know. So, yes, I do definitely think that there's a lot of people who are learning about it who why in some way be a part of it. And it's really cool. And yet I think you should be a doer.  

Speaker 2 I think you.  

Amber-Rose Should be trained. I think everybody should be able to do it. Yeah, we're actually just side note, we're working on a grant to bring Indigenous Dula and lactation training to the college so we can kind of get an idea of how we can better like have a sustainable program and that might be in our curriculum. So that's in the works. So we might meet again talking about how that could happen and how it could happen. So other than the million reasons you've already stated why DULA services are important, do you have any others to add? Yeah, I think I think not enough is said about the sharing and witnessing of this like huge, huge, huge, huge thing that is happening in people's lives. I mean, to share it with someone, to witness it or someone or have someone witness you in these like great moments, whether they're happy or sad or, you know, whatever it is that you're going through, you know, a lot of times it can be really beneficial to that person, especially. So a lot of the times when I meet with people they like often are like, do I need to do a lot because my mom's going to be there, my aunties are going to be there, I'm going to be a highlight. And I'm like, yes, because number one, sometimes it's beneficial to have someone outside of your family circle because a lot of things come with that family, whether it's drama or whether it's like they the certain family dynamics where there's, you know, they're going to say yes to you no matter what, are they going to say no to you or they're going to be judgmental or they just want you to be happy and taken care of. So they might not be telling you their critiques or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be. Sometimes it can be helpful to have an outside person who is there, especially if things get intense. There's going to be someone who is connected to you in a relative way, but also being there to do their job in a different way than a medical professional so they can help continue to give that guidance, even if people are emotionally raw, whatever that emotion is. The other thing is we support our number one goal is to support the birthing person, but we support families and everyone else who's there. You know, if they're I can't tell you how many bumbling dads I've had to be like, Stand over here. Fold her leg like this. Talk to her like this. You know, in the prenatal, I'm showing them how to be support person for them. So it's not just me, and they're just standing over there staring. And I'd be like, Come over here. Let me show you what you can do. You know, in the pre needles and during labor, you know, showing people, telling people what kind of food to bake for them, showing them how to do things. But also, you know, during a long labor or during a long appointment waiting or all this other kinds of stuff, you know, especially for fertility things, you know, like it's hard to have one or two support people because it can be emotionally exhausting for them. So having someone just switch out with the tag team to, you know, to make sure that they're taken care of as well is really important because sometimes the person who is pregnant is holding all of their emotions and keeping a strong face because they're afraid of how their loved ones are going to react and process information. So having another person there who is going to be attentive to everyone's needs and emotions in the room is really helpful. And again, this is based on any one of the outcomes and scenarios that are going to be happening. You know, having someone else there who is going to be consistent. I mean, nurses are great support. They come in and out of the room a lot. But a Dula is there the whole time. They don't leave. I mean, maybe go to the bathroom, get something to eat. You know, if it's a really long labor, we might sleep. But I mean, the reality is for most, most scenarios in and outside of bathroom and all of the other outcome situations, whether it's a grief or loss scenario, abortion scenario, fertility, surrogacy, adoption, you know, we're going to be that consistent person all the way through. So having another person outside of your family is often a really, really good idea. Thank you. That kind of reminds me of when I was having my second daughter and she I remember looking in the bed and in labor and it was so intense. We missed the clock or the window for the epidural. So I remember laying in bed looking at my mom crying, and I made her cry, too.  

Speaker 2 Yeah, I felt.  

Amber-Rose So bad because she was just like, I am so sorry, baby. I'm so sorry. And I felt so bad for making her cry because I was so much pain. But yeah, it would have been nice to have another person to.  

Speaker 2 Like.  

Amber-Rose Give my mom a break because I remember her just standing there for the longest time crying along with me. But I still am so thankful that, you know, she got to be there because I know, like I've been hearing stories from, you know, some people now that they were able to have, you know, their partners or other people in there while they're giving birth during COVID. So all I can say is just that I'm thankful. And, you know, I was able to have that experience pre-COVID. I hope, you know, now things are kind of opening up. So. But yeah, it's it would have just for me personally, I know, you know, even at my young age with my first birth, that would have been very helpful to have that kind of support there. So I'm wondering, too, like about those teen moms who might not know about do the services, but also how to ask those questions like how can I get doula services just because my experience, you know, is everywhere is kind of feels like a blur every now and then. But, you know, having that that extra person, they're like, this is what you expect. These are the questions that are this is, you know, what you should be thinking about preparing for. It would have been so helpful. Yeah. So so we have the last we're coming up on the last question. How can we get more people to use doulas? I mean, I feel like you've already given 1,000,001 reasons now, but I guess other than like the the, you know, the visibility through like this podcast or like social media, you know, do you have any other ideas on how we can get more people to use doulas? Well, yes. First of all, just the word Dula already puts up a block with my Navajo clients in particular. It's always like, Is this some kind of new age hippie crap? Yeah, and I personally have nothing against New Age hippie crap. It's just not for me. And a lot of it, you know, we're like, Is this just for white women? You know, like, what is this? You know? So for me, the hard part is to get around that word. People have not heard of it. And then when people start to describe it, they imagine, like, you know, those white women from Santa Fe like doing, you know, their hands all over you and stuff. Like, that's not the vibe for me. So I think that's one of the hard things. And one of the things that we grapple with as an adult is, is like, how can we separate ourselves from that word and still be recognized within those circles? And I think a lot of communities are trying to struggle, are struggling with that. So I think, first of all, like, I feel like sometimes I feel like putting in my bio, like not a new age white hippie.  

Speaker 2 You.  

Amber-Rose Know, like I am I'm a rez girl, I'm a raspberry worker. I grew up in the ditch, too, So I'm playing in the ditch.  

Speaker 2 So I.  

Amber-Rose Don't know. So I think that's one thing for me from indigenous people. I think the other thing is the cost. Making sure that people feel like they can pay for it or to get services without pay, making sure. That's a really big one. The other thing, I think specifically, especially with teens, so first I want to say I have a controversial thoughts on teen moms in that my controversy is there's nothing wrong with teen moms. Like there is nothing negative about a teen mom. The only negative outcomes from teen motherhood is when they don't have support. If their community does not show up for them in the way that we should be doing for all people who have babies. There would not be a problem. Yeah, they still finish school. They still do all the things that have hobbies and have a life. If they have support, a life is possible. And that's true for all people who have babies. So personally, I don't think there's anything wrong. With teen pregnancy, if you know that is something that the person wants, you know, if that birthing person wants to have a baby once they have, you know, once they're pregnant, then there's nothing wrong with that. They should be able to do that successfully with the support of their community. Now, that being said, I think with young people, but also just people in general, the lack of like sex ed. The lack of understanding about anything to do with their reproductive system is just beyond terrible. There's there's no information that's given. So how can you know what it is that you might need in the future if you don't even cannot say the word vagina? If you don't know the difference between a cervix and a uterus. You know what I mean? If you don't know that, the fact that when your list comes out and it's the size of a dinner plate, that's the size of the world that you have in your body for 18 to 24 months until it heals, yeah, you're not going to know that. You're going to need a postpartum dullard to help take care of you. So, I mean, for me, it's really about people need access to information about their reproductive system, their reproductive process, about how their their reproductive organs work within that system. And this is true for all bodies. Any body needs to have an understanding of how it works and what they can do to support it. Also, just the understanding and I think with sex ed is about your body and anatomy and how things work. But the other thing about like, you know, you know, sex ed should be talking about actual sex. What that means to have sex, how to have safe sex, what consent is like, you know, the understanding and of pleasure about partnerships, about, you know, all of this kind of stuff and different what different kinds of relationships can look like with people. Because if we're not honest about not just what our bodies are and can do, but how we use those bodies, like, again, we're not going to have an understanding of who needs to be in the room with us, what kind of support we might need, or what are all the different kinds of things that can happen when when we fall into a situation where we could be pregnant or we want to be pregnant. You know, there's just I just see so many people who are out there trying to like basically they get pregnant and they're like, they're Googling anatomy, You know, Amy, they're Googling. They're doing a Google class and anatomy one on one. They're looking on YouTube. You know, they have no idea what's happening. They have no idea anything that could happen. And they're trying to figure it out on their own, you know, And sometimes that's how people find doulas and they they find support systems through there. And but I mean, really, people need information. And I'm like, yeah, again, trying to get people who are in charge of educating our use involved in that is like tough times. But I know that there are people who are doing the work. You know, there are a lot of community health workers, public health people who are trying to make sure that, you know, trying in some ways to get people educated is just a really rough go. There's still a lot of stigma around sex. There's a lot of stigma around sex ed reproduction. But and I think that leaves it open to like. People not having a lot of bodily autonomy. And when you think that you have no autonomy and power and ownership over your own body, you're you're already from the beginning thinking that you don't have a choice of what happens to your body in this scenario. You know, like if you don't even know that you have control over your own body inside a hospital room, you're already being set up to feel. You know, but if you say you're in charge, take ownership. That's yours. You're you're telling us what to do. Then you're like, Oh, okay, what do I need to do? You know, that's what the Googling said.  

Speaker 2 So.  

Amber-Rose Yeah, people need information. People need information. Yes, I agree. Yeah. You know, I kind of think that you know, I think my first impression of Dula is from a movie. And I remember, like the the woman was like saying, you know, she costs $5,000 and I think the husband's like $5,000. I just remembered, like, that was my first you know, the first time I heard Dula the first time I heard the cost from a movie. So automatically, you know, I think like, wow, we have to do was they must be making the.  

Speaker 2 Dough and Yeah.  

Amber-Rose So yeah but you know I really admire, you know you your energy, the work you know you're just your love for the work and you know how you talk about it. It just it makes me feel very warm. I like your.  

Speaker 2 Vibe.  

Amber-Rose So I might be calling you for any future pregnancies that I may have, because I do want to be able to not only be a, you know, a dual for others, but also to have one and experience that because I think that's very special. So thank you again. Yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time. I want to let you get back to your nephew.  

Speaker 2 But are there.  

Amber-Rose Any last words that you have or any shout outs? Yeah. So if you're speaking with any other jewelers or clients, I mean, I'm really glad that you're giving us all the opportunity to do this. We don't have a lot of spaces to do this, A lot of indigenous to us, Black and indigenous peoples are trying to create our own spaces and it's really awesome when someone is willing to get us out there. So yeah, I mean, I have like a million people to think. I mean, I am now home so like I could go on for days with the thing use because I am really thankful. So I mean, like my family really comes through for me. So anytime I have a birth and I'm on call like my sister Michonne, my, her, my, you know, my brother in law, her husband James, like they're just really helpful and supportive. They, like, have covered some of the costs of the work that I do and are, you know, just really have my back and all of this. And actually, you know, that extends also to my to my other siblings. You know, Melissa, I got to see all their names here in Harrison. My mom and my dad here is the government. Like everyone's really been supportive of me and, you know, they really want to see the best for me. I know that a lot of them are surprised. I used to be really squeamish around blood. They're like, How could you ever be of this medical world? And like, I don't know, but it's happened and I love it. And, you know, they they are all just trying to help me make this possible. They really know that this is what it is for me. And actually my sister, Michonne and my brother Harrison are also both to us. They were both training Ziggy to it. And then, you know, I, I feel like I just want to thank all of my indigenous does, my Tonette does, you know, all of the jewels who have come into my life and the people who are in that first world with me, you know, like Amanda Singer, all the that do a collective the Navajo Nation Breastfeeding Coalition, Nicole from ten woman Institute, Cami and Kim with Indigenous breastfeeding counselor Melissa and Candace with Ziggy too and Rita Gilmore. You know, this just goes on, you know, like the doers that I'm really in close contact with here. Carla. Jackie you know, I have my own little cohort of community jewelers out of South Phenix Healthy Start. You know, I just feel like I have a lot of support and a lot of love from the other indigenous communities that we have. Oh, I should also say a special shout out to All Women United who like Tommy.  

Speaker 2 E E.  

Amber-Rose About indigenous Dula black brown students who helped help me with my critical political worldview. Um, yeah, and to my little labeling of my little nieces and nephews, my siblings. You know, that made me an anti that made me a little mom. You know, like they are everything to me. They elara. She saved me for my world in Massachusetts. She was born and changed the whole trajectory of my life. So, yeah, everyone. I just love everyone. Thank you to you. Thank you to them. Thank you to all my clients who trust me to do this. Work with them. And yeah, I know just a lot of love for everybody. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, thank you. I didn't forget anyone.  

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, dear.  

Amber-Rose Did you see them? No. Okay, Well, again, thank you for your time. And I hope you have a great weekend. It is the weekend. Thank you. And many blessings to you and your family. And, you know, all your relatives, really all your peer supporters. It sounds like you have a lot. Oh, that's really awesome. Now I'll be talking with Krystal Soucy. She's going to share her experiences with having a do love present during her pregnancy and labor and birth. Thank you for joining us, Krystal. Would you like to introduce yourself?  

Speaker 3 Yeah, thank you. What shape can the team initially going to create an interesting part of the Christmas season this year? So thank you so much and great honor to be able to speak to you today about my experiences in childbirth.  

Amber-Rose Awesome. Thank you. So we'll go ahead and go into the first question. Why did you choose to have a Dula?  

Speaker 3 Prior to giving birth to my first child, I obviously was never pregnant beforehand and it was really important that I utilize the experience to connect back to my cultures and traditions and bring my child into the world in that person as culturally attuned to our traditions as possible. And it has been a long time, and fortunately, since anyone in my family has introduced the young one into our larger family, I mean, I have a whole slew of cousins that have always or have had children, but I've never really been around to witness their childhood experiences. So I really want to make sure that the child, the upbringing into the world is rooted in grounded and in their traditions and cultures and have a good starting point for that living, that traditional lifestyle.  

Amber-Rose ASIM So can you talk a little bit about the so it sounds like you had traditional birthing services offered. Can you talk a little bit about like, what exactly that was?  

Speaker 3 Oh, actually, I didn't. So I. My first pregnancy was during the height of COVID, so everything was completely distanced. I don't think I actually met my doula until maybe until she actually entered the delivery room in person. All of our meetings were conducted remotely. And also, I had a high risk pregnancy as well. So it was never really an option for me to do it at home birth. And actually, considering some of the the health trauma that my sister had when she was pregnant with my niece, I really wanted to ensure that I actually was in a place that could provide medical interventions for me as needed because, you know, things occur during delivery and parturition that that are emergent state and even having a few minutes without oxygen can be severely detrimental to the child's outcome for their and their lifestyles for the rest of their lives and also impacting their the lives of their families as well. So I didn't want to chance it just just to give a little bit more clarity to that point. My my niece actually swallowed the meconium on the way out of the birth canal and actually completely occluded her airway to the point that she was without oxygen for several, several minutes and had to be airlifted from the clinic to another facility. And this was in an urban area. So it could have been overall, it could have been worse. And the the the long term effects of that lack of oxygen have been severe. And that was something that if I could avoid definitely from 30 knew that I had some high risk. I'm already at high risk for a few things, but I just wanted to ensure that I wasn't chanting things, especially not during the middle of a pandemic.  

Amber-Rose Okay, Thank you. Can you talk about how your doula helped you with your prenatal and birth experience?  

Speaker 3 Sure. She actually was a great cultural teacher of the traditions. There are, of course, some things that my my mother and my grandmother knew already in terms of taboos that we were supposed to avoid. Things like not cutting meat, not playing with dolls. I think I'm sorry they're not playing with dolls or something. But the Dula actually informs me about it feels like sometimes when you speak with with different women, they have their own stories, their own taboos. But the big ones, of course, are we shouldn't look at the things that animals like that. That's a huge one, particularly when you're pregnant. But smaller things like like not playing with doll, that's one that I never heard of before. Other taboos that I like also that were surprising were that I shouldn't be tying knots or even tying my own shoelaces. So my husband actually took on the responsibility of tying not for me or I just switched two to sandals. The other trousers that we we did that women know by and large or like, stay awake during eclipses, don't go outside and that kind of thing. But there is there's just other stories that I've heard, even from fellow friends that were also pregnant. For instance, one one of my friends heard that the lead dishes overnight dirty in the sink. I don't know how true that is, but that's something that she grew up with. So it's really fascinating that, of course, there are some traditions that are more universal to our knowledges and then some it seems like it's a little bit more specific according to how one is brought up.  

Amber-Rose Can you talk a little bit more about how your doula was there for your birth experience?  

Speaker 3 So my daughter was actually really important. Again, I gave birth during the height of the pandemic, so I was actually really fortunate that it was starting to be towards the end of the first major surge and back and vaccinations were starting to become widely available. So I was allowed a partner and my my, my husband was able to be in the room with me, but we were not allowed he was not allowed in and out privileges in the room. So we packed for. Five plus days and ended up being there for five days. And as much as I would have loved my mother to be there because of the restriction to just one person, you know, I thought it was going to be just the two of us. But my do. Thankfully, the hospital made an exception. If you had a certified doula, then you would be allowed that individual in the room. But that individual would not be allowed in the room until you entered active labor. So we actually didn't get to see her in total until pretty close to time anyway. But when she came, not only was she there to help in terms of relating to the nurses, why I had certain wishes, like for instance, I wanted to keep the placenta and of course the nurses thought it was because I wanted to ingest the placenta. I guess like many other women do, like they think that they turned into pills and use it to, I don't know, really postpartum syndromes symptoms or they think it will increase the luster of their hair and skin or whatever, but which is a practice that actually many of the nurses were kind of discouraging being gestation of the placenta just because of health reasons. And once we we stated, you know, we want to keep it to be buried, they relaxed a little bit, but also they had a policy that the remove somebody had to be able to remove the placenta within 24 hours and actually within 2 hours of birth because they weren't going to they didn't have enough refrigeration storage on hands to do that. So having a person outside of my partner to be able to leave the delivery area after parturition with the placenta and hold that for a while, my husband and I were able to bond with our child was actually really important as well. And then having another person there was just great. Another woman was there, my husband as great as he was. And as much as I love the fact that he was there, you know, I really wanted a woman with me and I really wanted that person. So my mom, my was really great in that she provided that that female presence in the room. But then also she took on the role of communicating everything with my mom. I didn't know, but there was like several screens worth of text conversations back and forth of her just updating my mother with pictures and documenting things. But she is she was actually really great for being another advocate, like, for instance, that I was tired and just didn't want to explain why I wanted to sash belt wrapped around the hospital bed grips thing. You know, she would at least explain it for me and I could concentrate on sleeping or doing something else. So she was she was really great. That's awesome.  

Amber-Rose To hear. I think, you know, any woman or person who gives birth wants that support. And that sounds really great that that doula was able to do that for you, especially explaining like those cultural teachings and ways that we're trying to bring back. And so I'm kind of going back a little bit to see. So you talk to you talk more a little bit more about the birthing. You said that the dual role was helpful in being, I guess, letting you know of the cultural information during pregnancy. Was there like what other ways was she able to help you, even those over Zoom? What other I guess, how does your prenatal I guess appointment went with her.  

Speaker 3 Get all of the other things that she helped me with were procuring certain things. Like, for instance, she really helped me find some Navajo teen bundles. I don't know if you're aware of this, but particularly in the loop area. Now, the hope is not as as abundant as it used to be. It feels like several years ago there were along the highways, there were people, outsiders coming into our communities and picking Navajo tea in huge trash bags from their root and not harvesting it correctly. So in certain areas around the reservation, people around the highways especially hard to find that people are not Hopi. And then my grandmother used to to grow it for us. But then she she's unfortunately not as strong in health as she used to be. So that was like a huge source of with tea that we cannot find easily. And she was my July was really great for finding that source and other types of of like like souls like opinion sells for stretch marks and she had all these other connections. The other thing that was really important was about at the 35, 36 week mark, you're supposed to have a ceremony and it's kind of akin to a passing way. But it's more about prepping not just your home, but also ensuring good of the passage of your child. Traditionally, this is done with somebody coming to your home to sing and chant. COVID unfortunately, made that almost an impossibility. We actually tried to find somebody on the reservation to try to even do it from afar, like over the phone or something. And it was just a hard time for for medicine people to even provide those services. So our do love was really at least put in a concerted effort to try to find somebody for us. And then unfortunately we couldn't. It at least helped us procure some some things to be able to do a blessing of our own at home. So we're able to find some error route and things and be able to just, you know. Dissolve it in water, straight or in a home as a means of cleansing on top of smudging.  

Amber-Rose Wow, that sounds awesome. I'm really glad that, you know, those doulas can help in that way. You know, just kind of going back and relating it to my experience when I had my first child, I didn't know anything. I was 15, so I actually I was 14. It's so awesome to see that you were very proactive, especially during the pandemic, and wanting your birth to include these traditional and cultural teachings and ceremonies. And that's a really big encouragement for me because I don't hear that a lot. And I think that will be very encouraging for other mothers who thought that that of happen for them during the pandemic or maybe going forward, that they didn't know that these kind of dual services exist. So that's really awesome. Thank you. So were there I know you talked a lot about the benefits, but are there any other benefits to having a doula?  

Speaker 3 I think the culture advocacy and just to give another anecdote, when I was about ready to deliver, they I had a cloth mask on it because I wanted I wanted the first words and the first that my, my, my son saw and heard to be that. And so I purposely chose this mask to wear this cloth mask. And the nurses initially asked me to switch to one of the more clinical disposable masks. And my dollar was really great, especially after my labor was 55 plus hours. So it's usually great to say that I had this wish that of there's a reason why I kept this mask. And once the nurses heard it, they were completely on board, by the way. And my my nurses weren't reticent at all of me having a co-producer. They actually asked a lot of respectful questions and really were inclusive of having my doula in the room and really would just when they could ask a lot of questions about the practices of what we did and learning from us, because I don't think they had that many patients at the time. So it was actually a nice, respectful environment. It was really nice actually having her in the room. So in terms of being able to learn additional traditions that I didn't know about helping, helping procuring herbal medicine during a really difficult time, ensuring that my my health was taken care of because I had severe nausea throughout all three trimesters of my pregnancy. So the Navajo tea was actually really important. And then also just being the third support person in a secondary support person in the room, she didn't just support me. She also supported my partner and my husband because at that time that she had arrived, I think even though we came with this whole caravan of of backpacks and snacks and foods, we were not expecting the time of induction to a medical induction to actual childbirth to be that long. We were anticipating when we showed up Monday morning, that Monday afternoon or evening or be this Tuesday morning that we would be on our way home almost. And it wasn't until Wednesday morning that the thing things finally started happening and we had exhausted our our snack supply and the hospital provisions like the cafeteria were not available either. And again, my husband and it have in and out services or capabilities. So like procuring outside food for him was that was hard to do and hospitals only serve provide food for the pregnant woman. They don't as the patient, so they don't really provide food for a support people. So her bring coming in at the last minute with additional provisions was actually super helpful. And then also being able to sleep in shifts between her and my husband was really important as well, just to make sure that there was somebody awake in case the nurse came by and needed something for me or and it was just nice having another person to talk to briefly to just have a keeping that conversation lighthearted and humorous because that's what we Navajo people need, especially in these difficult, potentially difficult times of humor. Especially she was just a really warm hearted and humorous person. It was great to have her around.  

Amber-Rose Awesome. That sounds really great. I love that. You know, that anticipation where you're like, Oh, I'll probably have a baby. Like at the end of the day, no, they don't come for a few days. I mean, I learned that too. I remember thinking like when I started feeling the contractions and I was like, Oh, I'll get to have a baby by. I think I started on a Friday and then I went in that that night and they're like, Nope, you got to go home. And I'm like, What? And then I stayed home all day Saturday, went in early Sunday morning. They're like, Nope, we got to go home.  

Speaker 2 And I'm like, No.  

Amber-Rose All day Sunday. And then finally Monday evening, she came. So I remember thinking like, Oh man, like, But it was really just something to experience. I mean, I'm I'm still every time I think about that time, I'm just like, Oh my gosh, you know, I kind of wish I could go through it again so I could deal like a little bit better or something of that sort. Okay, So. Can you explain why other pregnant persons should utilize dual services?  

Speaker 3 I think particularly for the first that a person is pregnant. There's just a lot of questions about everything. And it isn't just questions about the labor itself, but in terms of the 940 week lead up to the actual childbirth itself and then afterwards the preparation for this new life that you're bringing in, and then also the fact that you're a new person after after you deliver, you are lactating, which is something you might be doing for the first time ever in your life. And there's there's a lot of changes to you, to your body, to your sense of being sense of who you are. And also on top of the emotional changes, which can be stressful. And then on top of the psychological and physiological changes. And then also just it's a life change. It's a life changing moment that is earmarked in our culture, specifically the shift to motherhood. You know, when you're thinking of yourself for your first X number of years of life and then all of a sudden switching to thinking about this little cute, helpless, wrinkly thing, this other new person, there's a lot of preparation involved. So just having another individual who has seen it before many, many times to reassure you that, yes, the thing that you're feeling is completely normal is sometimes a huge comfort. And then also to it's also equally important to know that the thing that you're feeling is probably out of the ordinary and you probably should go seek some additional medical help or interventions for yourself through the health of yourself or your or your little kid. So that's also important to know. I, I personally, I don't think I could be I'm not ready to complete my second pregnancy soon. I'm like 36 weeks now into my second pregnancy. And I am I am definitely not an expert in being pregnant. But doulas are somebody that has seen multiple pregnancies across multiple different women in cost of experiences. So she can impart that or they can import that type of wisdom onto you. Mm hmm.  

Amber-Rose Yeah, I totally get it. Like, you have all these questions about what might happen, and I can see, you know, being able to have a Dula there to answer those questions. You know, just looking back on my prenatal experience at that age, you know, was kind of I know I didn't go in until I was about four months. And then even just that whole process, you know, I didn't know what questions to ask. I didn't know that, you know, my life was just about to change in the way it did. And it was a lot to take in at that age. But I think if I were to know things like having a Dula or, you know, anything about motherhood and babies, you know, I probably would have you know, it would have been nice to have that person there for support, you know? Of course, I had my family. But, you know, especially for the cultural side of it, you know, that's very important. And I didn't know a lot about my that side then about my Navajo side. You know, I wasn't raised in that setting, but I feel like what I know now, having gone, you know, taking classes here at the college and learning who my relatives are and then going, you know, working with this project and understanding, you know, all of these, you know, amazing teachings and things that we should do, things that we shouldn't do while pregnant. That really just opened my eyes to like, how. How much you know this kids are now a whole culture impacts, you know, our entire lives especially, you know, once you're once you become, you know, a couple, once you get into marriage and then family, even the just the development of the household, there's so much that goes into it and it's so purposeful. Like you you feel like you have a purpose, you know, again. So yeah, it's really awesome. I'm really glad that you shared a lot about how your doula was a cultural advocate, because I feel like a lot of a lot of the time, you know, some of us just don't have that at home. We don't have that readily available to us. You know, I can't go back to my parents and be like, Can you tell me about, you know, what I should do or shouldn't do while I'm pregnant? I think they'll know, like, don't tie knots. Don't look at that. Animals on the road, you know, don't speak about bad things. But that's about it, especially when it comes to ceremony and blessings. You know, I learned that that's a very important part of becoming a family, especially, you know, before childbirth. So I really thank you for, you know, providing all of this helpful information. I'm sure it's going.  

Speaker 3 To help.  

Amber-Rose Some women out there choose to have a Dula and also just have that extra support because I feel like that's just something we all need sometimes not only during pregnancy but in life. And so I'm really glad that the doula services that you are offer that you have experienced are very positive. It sounds and just one thing about a second pregnancy like that, the baby usually comes pretty fast.  

Speaker 2 So.  

Amber-Rose You know, you probably all need to pack too many bags.  

Speaker 2 Because.  

Amber-Rose I went in, was it like a monday, early Monday morning and had her at 7 a.m. that morning, probably like 7 hours, 6 hours. And she was out and I was like, Yeah, I didn't. But this time I experienced everything because I didn't have an epidural like I did the first time. They actually missed that window. And so I was so mad. But it was, it was different having experienced it, you know, without any pain meds. I finally because usually, you know how women say, like, I feel like I have to push. I but I didn't feel that was my first one. My second one though, because I didn't have the meds. She I felt everything and I was like, I have to push. And yeah, I was like, okay, now I know a woman mean when they say they have to push like I can't like and the doctor or the nurses are like, Wait for the doctor. And I'm like, No, I can't. It's like, I have to push.  

Speaker 2 So yeah.  

Amber-Rose Congratulations on your new baby coming. I actually on Tuesday, my cousin just had a little girl and I was so excited for that. I'm I think technically I'm a grandma, which I'm so happy about and Navajo way I'm a grandma. And she. Oh, my gosh. It's been a while since we had a baby in the family, so this is such a big blessing. I'm texting her every day, like, send me a picture. Send me a picture. She's already changing, like from when I first held her at the hospital and to now. And so I'm so happy. I'm like, now I don't have to have a baby.  

Speaker 2 Because.  

Amber-Rose I really I had baby fever for the longest time.  

Speaker 3 I know exactly what you mean. This my my son came at a really great time. Me horrible in terms of the world pandemic going on, but. Mm. I think his birth was such a positive blessing, especially considering the fact that it took me a long time to be able to conceive. I had some underlying medical issues that, you know, I almost didn't believe it was possible. And he was just a miracle in two different aspects. And then to see that him be welcomed so heartily by both sides of my family is great. And then I realized very quickly that if if he were the only one of our our only child, he'd be so spoiled. So we're like, okay, he needs a sibling. Oh, how sweet I am.  

Amber-Rose So just something about doing this work and hearing about all these families and how they're thriving and doing things. And, you know, in our cultural side, it's just it's so uplifting. And, you know, I say this like at the bottom of my heart. Thank you. Thank you for carrying on those traditions. Thank you for caring about them. And thank you for, you know, just sharing your story, because I feel like that's how I learned. That's how I've learned just how to go forward in a positive way in my life. So thank you so much.  

Speaker 3 I thank you so much for this podcast.  

Amber-Rose Yeah, I wish you and hope for all the best in the world for you and your family.  

Speaker 3 Thank you.  

Amber-Rose Excellent. Thanks for listening to the M6 podcast. For more information about the Navajo M6 project, please visit us on Facebook at the Navajo Maternal and Child Health Project at Jeannette College.