Ep5: Ali from Afghanistan

We speak to Ali about being evacuated from Kabul, Afghanistan, when the allied forces finalised the withdrawal of troops in August 2021. We also discuss his upbringing in Afghanistan, his relationship with his wife Noorzia, his career as a lawyer, life as a refugee, his disappointment with the Australian Government, the Taliban and how listeners can help the Afghan people. Ali and Noorzia are such resilient people and have an inspiring story. If you would like to help the Afghan people please take the following steps:

Visit:
https://saveafghanistannow.good.do/contact/mp/
This website makes it easy to send an email to your local MP, you just enter your home address and it will tell you who your MP is, you then review the pre written email and edit where you want, enter your personal details and then hit send.

https://www.actionforafghanistan.com.au/
This website allows you to sign a petition to be submitted to the Australia Government to take action in Afghanistan.

If you like what you have heard please subscribe and leave us a review.

The Journey to Oz Podcast is produced by:
Nick Hansen from Hansen Migration
MARN: 1679147
www.hansenmigration.com.au

Evan Bishop from Worldly Migration
MARN: 1679414
www.worldlymigration.com

Please visit either of our websites to book a free consultation.

Disclaimer
Any information discussed in this podcast is made available for entertainment purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. We do not make any guarantee or accept any responsibility for the accuracy and completeness of any of the information discussed. The laws of Australia can change without notice and we do not have a duty or obligation to update any information. Listening to this podcast does not mean you have an agent to client relationship with Hansen Migration or Worldly Migration or any associated Migration Agents, lawyers or other service providers. You should obtain advice from a Registered Migration Agent or an Immigration Lawyer before acting on any of the content discussed in this podcast. You can find a list of Registered Migration Agents by visiting www.mara.gov.au. 

The information contained within this podcast may not be reproduced without our prior written consent. 

In the spirit of reconciliation, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of land throughout Australia and pay respect to their elders, we extend that respect to all aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders today. 

Thank you for listening. 

Transcript

 Evan:
Welcome to Journey to Oz, the podcast where we share migration stories from overseas to Australia. We are both registered migration agents. Nick, who specializes in family visas and myself, Evan, who specializes at employer sponsored visas. Over the years, we have helped many clients who have had very interesting stories to tell. Nick, can you outline what you will cover in today's episode?

Nick:
I spoke to Ali, who's an Afghan national currently residing in a refugee camp in New Jersey whilst waiting for his partner visa application to be processed. We cover a lot in this interview, including life as a refugee, growing up in Afghanistan, the Taliban, how he met his wife, how he worked as a lawyer in Kabul and his subsequent evacuation from Kabul. We also discuss his visa application and steps that listeners can take to help the Afghan people. In this interview, you'll hear Ali's audio fade at times because his signal was affected by military planes taking off and landing at an air base nearby. The thing that's really struck me in a time that I've known Ali and his wife, Noorzia, is how resilient and inspiring they are. Before we hear from Ali, here's a bit of history of the events that led up to the coalition forces being withdrawn from Afghanistan, as covered by the Western media.

George W. Bush:
The United States military has begun strikes against Al-Qaeda terrorist training camps and military installations of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. We are joined in this operation by our staunch friend, Great Britain. Other close friends, including Canada, Australia, Germany, and France have pledged forces as the operation unfolds.

Barack Obama:
Tonight, I can report to the American people and to the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of Al-Qaeda, and a terrorist who's responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent men, women, and children.

Donald Trump:
We are working to finally end America's longest war and bring our troops back home.

Joe Biden:
I believed that our presence in Afghanistan should be focused on the reason we went in the first place, to ensure Afghanistan would not be used as a base from which to attack our homeland again. We did that. We accomplished that objective. We delivered justice to bin Laden a decade ago, and we've stayed in Afghanistan for a decade since. Our reasons for remaining in Afghanistan are becoming increasingly unclear. I inherited a diplomatic agreement, duly negotiated between the government of the United States and the Taliban, that all US forces will be out of Afghanistan by May 1, 2021. We'll not conduct a hasty rush to the exit. We'll do it responsibly, deliberately, and safely. And we will do it in full coordination with our allies and partners.

reporter:
The Taliban has claimed victory in a two decade conflict in Afghanistan, after seizing control of the capital Kabul. The president has fled the country, saying it was only way to avoid bloodshed. The citizens desperately try to escape on the last flights out of the country.

reporter:
The speed at which the Afghan government crumbled has caught all allied forces off guard.

reporter:
At Kabul Airport, the desperation is dangerous. An American military transport plane on the runway this morning, mauled by Afghans trying to flee their country. Eventually, the plane takes off. Moments later, as it gains altitude, it appears that two people fall to the ground.

Scott Morrison:
Last evening, Australia's operation to commence evacuating Australians and visa holders, Afghan nationals, and others from Kabul commenced. I want you to know that we will continue to do everything we can for those who have stood with us, as we have to this day. But I want to talk openly to veterans that despite our best efforts, I know that support won't reach all that it should.

Marise Payne:
We have changed our travel advice early this morning. Our clear travel advice is now, do not travel to Hamid Karzai International Airport. And if you are in the area of the airport, move to a safe location and await further advice. There is an ongoing and very high threat of terrorist attack.

reporter:
There has been a suicide bombing at Kabul Airport in Afghanistan, where crowds were gathered in the hope of getting onto one of the last flights to escape Taliban rule. Taliban officials said at least 13 people were killed, and it comes after days of warnings from Western intelligence agencies an attack at the airport could be imminent. One blast happened close to the airport, Abbey Gate, and the other close to the nearby Baron Hotel.

Scott Morrison:
We are especially mindful of the reported 13 US Defense Force personnel who were murdered at the Abbey Gate at HKIA, a gate at which Australian Defense Force personnel stood only hours before. Australia's operations now for the evacuation have been completed.

Nick:
It has been 20 years since the United States invaded Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power, with the help of their allies, including Australia. It's a war that spent four US presidents, six Australian prime ministers, cost nearly $2 trillion and killed over 110,000 Afghan citizens, including police, military, and civilians, as well as 3,500 allied soldiers. In 2017, there were 11,000 US troops stationed in Afghanistan with the objective of training Afghan forces to defend themselves from the Taliban. The Trump administration made a deal with the Taliban in February 2020, without any input from the Afghan government to withdraw all US forces by the 1st of May 2021. In return, the Taliban made a pledge to prevent Al-Qaeda from operating in areas under Taliban control and to commence talks with the Afghan government for a permanent cease fire. When Biden came into power, he agreed to follow through with the withdrawal, but he changed the commencement date to the 1st of May and promised full troop withdrawal by the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

Nick:
He later brought forward the withdrawal deadline to the 31st of August 2021. As the allies withdrew their troops from Afghanistan, the Taliban quickly took control of each district, culminating in them taking control of the capital city, Kabul, on the 15th of August and having complete control of the country. Thousands of Afghans fled to Hamid Karzai International Airport in Kabul, in an attempt to escape Afghanistan by any means possible. The fear of the Taliban was particularly clear when several young men gripped to the landing gear of a US military plane as it took off, and later falling to their death. This was a better option than living under Taliban rule, in their minds. The allied forces eventually secured the airport and made it very difficult for anyone to enter. All the while, there was the constant threat of a terrorist attack from ISIS-K, which they followed through with on the 26th of August.

Nick:
This prompted the Australian government to end their evacuation efforts. While the US continued up until the 30th of August, after which the Taliban entered the airport and claimed victory. Amidst all this chaos, I first spoke to Noorzia after hearing her story on The World Uncut podcast. Noorzia is an Afghan national who was also a permanent resident of Australia. Her husband Ali was stuck in Kabul in unsuccessfully trying to enter the airport, despite the fact he had a pending partner visa application, and a confirmed flight out of Afghanistan with the Australian government. Ali eventually left Afghanistan and is here today to tell his story. Here is Ali explaining what life is like in a refugee camp in the United States.

Ali:
I would say that conditions here at the camp are quite well. There's not much to complain about as it is a refugee camp. To give you a picture of how it looks like, there are buildings and tents, limited buildings in which people who came first, are people who are prioritized to be placed in these buildings. And then we have these large tents in which people who came later on are placed in. And in these tents, families and people who are by themselves have been separated. So in my case, I live in a tent where we share the space. So it's good that it is equipped with heating and ventilation systems. So generally, I would say it is good. Basic needs are provided and the compound of the camp is quite large, so I can go around. But I mean, it's not normal residency. So I would say if one may not be happy to live here for a long time, but it's not much to complain about.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. And is it just Afghans there or are there other refugees from other countries?

Ali:
Only Afghans who have been evacuated recently have been placed in this camp.

Nick:
Okay. So it's a recently established camp then.

Ali:
Right. Yeah.

Nick:
And whereabouts is the camp located?

Ali:
So the camp is called Fort Dix camp. I believe it has been an army base. It's located in New Jersey.

Nick:
Okay. And when did you arrive there?

Ali:
I arrived here on October 16th. So it has been a month.

Nick:
And are you allowed to have visitors at the camp? So if your wife were to visit you, would she be allowed to visit you in the camp?

Ali:
Right. I believe we are not allowed to have visitors, although I haven't personally tried having visitors.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay.

Ali:
I've spoken with other people and as well as some interpreters. I have heard that visitors are not allowed, but even if it is allowed, I would say, they may require some conditions like visitors cannot maybe bring in to the people here. But I haven't seen many people or any people, any person who had a visitor here.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. And are you allowed to leave the camp at all?

Ali:
So we are allowed to leave the place where we live in, like those tents and buildings I referred to. So we can move around within the compound of the camp, but I believe we are not allowed to leave the compound. But I should mention that there is something called independent departure. So one evacuee, if he or she wants to leave the camp, getting out of the camp and get settled somewhere, he or she needs to choose for independent departure. And that means it takes a shorter period to get ready for that. And then the financial responsibility and other [inaudible 00:11:28] process things are on the person who is independently departing.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. And how long do you think you'll be there for?

Ali:
It's not really clear to me because people have been here for several months, although they came here directly, not staying much in other countries when they left Kabul. And it also depends on housing. So the International Organization for Migration and the US government is trying to place people in those states or cities where they have some contacts. And since there are a big number of people here throughout the States, people who have been evacuated, so if one chooses a place where housing is hard to figure out, so it may take longer. So in my case, progress has been made as to my visa [inaudible 00:12:23] process or the initial paperwork and other stuff. Yeah. And now, it is dependent on housing and I hope I can get out but [inaudible 00:12:33] if it gets longer than that, I won't be surprised.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. And is the US' attitude similar to Australia, where they're going to resettle Afghans temporarily or are they allowing them to stay in the US permanently?

Ali:
Well, that's a good question. Well, I don't know much about how it is going to work, but from what we have seen, they're trying to give employment authorization to these people so they can get out and start working so they can undertake their own financial responsibility. But in terms of whether what's the plan for these people, whether they can get settled in for permanent or temporary, it looks like they are going to be more open-minded or more open to accepting these people getting settled in for a permanent resident. But there's not much said about that. So I don't know. I guess it depends on the visa programs they put in place or they have put in place before.

Nick:
Okay. Now, Ali, can you please tell us a bit about your background? Whereabouts did you grow up?

Ali:
Sure. Yeah. So I was born and grew up in a rural valley in a district called Jaghori, which is one of the districts of Ghazni Province. The province on the Southeastern province of Afghanistan. So yeah, I completed my high school there and an absolute majority of the population of these districts and valley are the Hazaras, one of the largest ethnic groups in Afghanistan. So ethnically, my parents are Hazara.

Nick:
And are you able to tell us a little bit about how the Hazara people have been historically treated by the Taliban?

Ali:
Sure. Actually, this is a good question because it seems like at times, it is less understood what it means for Hazara actually, under the Taliban rule as compared to the other ethnic groups in Afghanistan. Well, historically, the Taliban, during their previous rule, the Hazara had a very severe life as opposed to, as compared to other ethnic groups. The Taliban massacred thousands of Hazara men and forced them, in several areas, to leave their ancestral land. They didn't receive protection while they were moving inside the country, outside of the country. And so the life was basically not good at all for the Hazara. So they didn't receive any protection, they didn't have access to basic needs or education. Things were very tough for the Hazara during their previous rule. Now, with the Taliban back in power, it would be even tougher for the Hazara people, especially the youth, because during the past 20 years, the Hazara people, and especially the youth, [inaudible 00:15:40] made great strides in getting education, like embracing and affecting positive social changes.

Nick:
So you were quite young when September 11 happened in 2001. Do you have any recollections from that time?

Ali:
I can recall that everyone in the valley where I was living felt kind of liberated. Lots of boys and girls rushed into schools, started studying. I remember that time, I started going to school, before that, I was going to mosque and learned some [inaudible 00:16:14], those kind of stuff. So I remember that people were very happy. They started listening to music or having TVs at their house and things were different at that time, after September 11, 2001. And they felt like as if they were brought a new life. Women, I remember that, were going to shops and buying new types of clothes that they couldn't imagine to have or couldn't pay for that. So things were different for youth, women, and other people. But in general, I would say it was very liberating for them. They felt liberated.

Nick:
So this was after the US were present in Afghanistan?

Ali:
Right. Yeah. So the exact time when the September 11 happened, I don't exactly recall that, what was the initial reaction or what was the thought of people at that time, but after... When the US troops, rather foreign troops came to Afghanistan, so things that I mentioned go back to those times. It was initially 2002, I believe.

Nick:
Yeah. So it was a definite change in people's attitudes and them being comfortable to be themselves.

Ali:
Definitely. Yeah.

Nick:
So, Ali, I first heard about you on The World Uncut podcast, where your wife Noorzia was being interviewed about the situation in Afghanistan. This was back in August. So how did you meet her?

Ali:
So Noorzia and I come from the same district and valley of Afghanistan. So when Noorzia was in Pakistan, and then when she moved to Australia, I would say, in 2016, we established a contact and started speaking with each other or initially texting with each other. We were getting to know each other online. And so it went for quite a while, or I would say, a couple of years that we were in contact when she was in Australia. So the first time we met in person was 2018 when I invited her to my graduation ceremony to US where I was completing a graduate degree.

Ali:
So she came to Los Angeles to celebrate my graduation ceremony together. So I had her in my graduation ceremony and I also showed her LA and also took her to San Francisco. So we had quite a chance to spend some time together. And that's when we got engaged. So we stayed there together and then she left US for Australia. She went back to Australia. I was also trying to come along with her after she left to come to Australia to visit her and spend a few more months with her to get to know each other more. I applied for an Australian visitor visa at that time but it didn't go through. So I went back to Afghanistan.

Nick:
Right. But you did later come to Australia on a visitor visa.

Ali:
Right. It happened later on, in 2019.

Nick:
Okay. And what were your impressions of Australia when you visited?

Ali:
Well, actually, when I came to Australia, I was working in Geneva. My boss was Australian and I had a colleague of mine who was Australian. So I had a chance to speak about Australia with him, my colleague. And so I had this impression that Australia was one of the greatest places to visit and people were nice. So I came to Australia and had the chance to go around in Sydney. I found it very interesting. It was very beautiful, Sydney, as far as I could see. And so they took me to a couple places there. It looked very nice.

Nick:
Sydney's beautiful, especially through all the Harbor area and... Which it pains me to say that as someone from Melbourne, but yeah, I have to admit it is a nice place. So you studied law in the US. How did that opportunity arise?

Ali:
I had worked with a law firm for quite a while for a couple of years. And after that, I was very interested in applying for a scholarship, particularly to study in the US. So one of the scholarship, which was accepting quite a number of people in Afghanistan, was offered by the United States. I applied for that scholarship and after a while, so I went to the US to do a master's degree of law.

Nick:
Okay. So you did your bachelor degree in Kabul then?

Ali:
That's correct. Yeah. So I did my bachelor's degree in Kabul.

Nick:
And so you worked in Geneva for a little while and then went back to Kabul. What sort of work were you doing in Kabul before you left?

Ali:
So I was working with a firm providing legal services to clients. We were basically corporate attorneys. So our areas of legal services mainly involved commercial laws. So representing clients before that and governance on issues like business registration and taxation and et cetera. And also providing legal advice to clients on Afghan laws and other laws. So it basically was providing legal services in the area of commercial law.

Nick:
Yeah. Right. And I guess you're hopeful of moving back into that area of law when you can.

Ali:
Yeah. It's an interesting area of law. And particularly, it was something that I was very passionate about to do in Afghanistan because it hasn't developed that much.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. That's understandable. So you lodged a prospective marriage visa back in August 2019 and then Noorzia traveled to Afghanistan and you were married a few months later in November of that year. So this automatically converted your prospective marriage visa application into a partner visa application. Have you received any correspondence from the Department of Home Affairs since then?

Ali:
No. Unfortunately, I haven't received any single correspondence from the Department of Home Affairs of Australia to request any further information or any document or receiving any update from them on my status of my application.

Nick:
So you didn't even receive confirmation that the prospective marriage visa application had been withdrawn? Because that's what generally happens, is the prospective marriage visa application gets withdrawn, and then you receive confirmation that you've made a partner visa application.

Ali:
Right. No, I haven't received anything. It's still in the account. It shows as if it is prospect of marriage visa, the same as when I initially launched my application.

Nick:
Yeah. It will do that because what happens is in that instance, the partner visa application is basically taken off line, but you still should receive a letter confirming that you've made a valid partner visa application.

Ali:
Yeah.

Nick:
So it's quite surprising that you haven't received that. You should have received that probably back early 2020, I would've thought. You would normally receive that. So have you seen Noorzia since she left after you were married?

Ali:
So when she left Afghanistan after we got married, so after a few months, we had this COVID-19 outbreak. [inaudible 00:24:03] across globe. So life got very difficult, more difficult than before, as I imagine [inaudible 00:24:10] with everyone. So we had quite a tough time, both of us, because we couldn't help, we couldn't emotionally support each other. It was a long distance relationship. I was interested in coming to Australia, but I couldn't amidst these travel restrictions and all this stuff. I'm not sure if I could even secure a visa. So she said that she was interested and she was happy to come. She decided to come to Afghanistan and visit me. Although it was still, there were travel restrictions and things, but she came to Afghanistan and we spent together, lived together for more than half a year.

Nick:
Right. When was that? Was that later in 2020?

Ali:
She came in November 2020 and stayed there until mid 2021. I believe it was June or July when she left Afghanistan.

Nick:
And what was the situation in Afghanistan like at that time?

Ali:
It was not completely safe, as attacks and exclusions were taking place from time to time. But it was better than July, in our case, I would say. So we could go out and have some fun on weekends and traveling and seeing some of the places that we had in Kabul. It was okay. But compared to July, I would say, when security got escalated, but it was not [inaudible 00:25:40]

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. Because of course, the allies were in the process of leaving Afghanistan at that point.

Ali:
Right.

Nick:
And then the Taliban entered Kabul on the 15th of August 2021. Where were you at that time?

Ali:
On 15th of August, I was in my office. It was midday when I received a call from my mom. She was crying, telling me to go to a safe place. My dad also was telling me to go to an embassy. They were thinking that if I go to an embassy, that I could have some safety, but I couldn't go just in the embassy or... There was no such a thing. So I was in my office, then we very quickly wrapped up some of the things that we needed to do together, the employees. And then the decision was to leave the office because it was in a location where it was thought that if the Taliban enters the city, then it may not be safe to be in the office. So I headed to my house. It took actually several hours because the traffic was terrible that day. And so things were different. On my way to home, I felt very scared, terrified because I thought maybe someone stops me and looks at my backpack, computer and stuff. So finally, late that day, I got home.

Nick:
Okay. So I've got a little bit of a timeline of that day, up until when you left Kabul. I first contacted the Department of Home Affairs on the 19th of August, requesting an update regarding your partner visa application. I've also sent numerous emails since then and have never received a response. How frustrating is that?

Ali:
Yeah, it's really extremely frustrating and disappointing. What strikes me the most is that the Department of Home Affairs say that they have my application on as their top priority. But as you said, I haven't received the visa yet. I haven't received anything from them as to whether they would process or give a visa or not, or as to whether... It just felt like as if they didn't care about me or my wife, because their action, inaction, actually, demonstrates that.

Ali:
So it is disappointing because my immigration to Australia is not just a matter of that I just want to enable as someone in the developing countries who may be very interested in doing so. So I have been to the west, I've been to Europe, US. So I could potentially choose a place to live in, but I wanted to be with my wife. But since I haven't received anything from the student government, especially when I was in an emergency, it really kind of broke my heart because there was a time when I thought that I could at least make it to Australia at that time. But even that didn't happen.

Nick:
Look, your frustration's completely understandable. We still follow up and we still get nothing. So we just have to keep trying, it's all we can do. So on the 20th of August, you were trying to enter Kabul International Airport, because you'd arranged an evacuation flight with the Australian government. How did you manage to arrange that flight?

Ali:
When Kabul fell to the Taliban, I was obviously speaking with my wife and I was also in contact with some of my colleagues and friends. So my colleagues and friends offered to see if they could [inaudible 00:29:27] for me to help, especially when the Australian government announced that they were sending troops to evacuate people. So I had colleagues who offered to see if there was a way for them to put me on the evacuation list. As well as Noorzia was also trying to figure out if she could do anything. So I think their efforts yielded and I received an email later on, I believe it was August 13th that I was on the Australian evacuation flight list.

Nick:
Because the government actually said that they would evacuate all Australian citizens, permanent residents, temporary visa holders, family members of citizens and permanent residents. And you also had a pending partner visa application at that point as well. So why couldn't you get into the airport?

Ali:
So there was a huge volatile crowd at the airport at the gates. When I went to the gates, trying to move through the crowd, that it was hard. In the meantime, the guards outside of the gates were opening fires. I remember that in the north gate, there was not one single minute that you were not hearing firing. In the meantime, since there were too many people, the guards were also throwing tear gas canister. And I remember, at least twice, it was thrown very close to me. And I had coughing, had my tears getting... And so it was very difficult to move through and get to the gate. So I tried my best, I tried hard, but it was too risky and even people got killed. So it was difficult to get to the gate.

Nick:
Was that because of the Taliban or was that because the allied soldiers were fighting off the crowds?

Ali:
Both. Actually, on one gate where the coalition forces or the foreign troops were there, it was... So the foreign troops were at the gate, but prior to the gate, the Afghan forces who were working with the foreign troops were responsible for the security of the crowd. So the Afghan forces were firing, and the tear gas, I believe came from the foreign troops. Two other gates of the airport, the Taliban were the guards. So in both cases, it was hard to move through the crowd. And on the gates where the Taliban was there, they were beating people. I remember that once, I tried even that gate, although the Australian government didn't tell me to go to that gate. But when I was there, I remember that one of the Taliban forces just beating and lashing and I just rushed back and... So yeah, it was difficult.

Nick:
Wow. Okay. Because I think the initial advice was to go to the north gate and then that later changed to the Abbey Gate.

Ali:
Right. Yeah. Later on, yeah. They told to go to Abbey Gate. Yeah.

Nick:
Yeah. So in the following days, Noorzia and myself called the Kabul Australian consulate emergency number numerous times. And we were able to confirm that you were registered with DFAT, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Now, their advice at that time was to stay safe until such time as you're able to enter the gates. And with all these crowds and not being able to get in, where did you stay safe during the times where you weren't trying to get into the airport?

Ali:
Yeah, so I was in my home where my parents and I lived together. So it was the safest place I had.

Nick:
How far away are they from the airport?

Ali:
It's about probably 30 kilometers away from the airport.

Nick:
Okay. And what was the danger making that 30 kilometer trip each way, each day to get to the airport?

Ali:
It was very risky. Particularly when I was coming back during midnight, when I was getting exhausted trying to move through the crowd and when I couldn't, I needed... Especially because I stayed there, let's say if I leave today and then I came back two nights later because I needed to get raised on the whole time that I was at the gates I needed to be there and no sleep. So coming back to home was risky. So first time I got out of my home, I was so scared because it was the first time I was getting out. I thought the Taliban were everywhere. They were everywhere. A couple of times, when I was coming back to home, it was midnight because that's...

Ali:
At the time, I was thinking that no way for me to get in. And they were closing the gates. So I faced the checkpoints and they didn't harm me, but I was thinking that, oh, I had my computer, my passports, and some of the documents. So I thought if the Taliban looks at that, that definitely gets me in trouble. I made a pocket attached to my underwear. That was one of the places where I could hide some of the very sensitive documents, documents that I thought maybe was not... If someone looked at that, would be problematic for me.

Nick:
Yeah. No. Understandable. So how many Taliban checkpoints were there between your parents' home and the airport?

Ali:
I'm not sure about the number, but I would say there were several and at least two or three I was going through. Especially getting close to my neighborhood, there were three that even those checkpoints even stopped, as in spoke with the taxi driver. But prior to the neighborhood, there were several. I would say at least five or more.

Nick:
Wow. So every time you are having to go through, say, at least eight or so checkpoints in each direction?

Ali:
That's correct.

Nick:
With the fear of the Taliban searching you and potentially harming you.

Ali:
Yeah. That's totally right. Yeah. So I was very scared and when I was getting a taxi, I was trying to put my backpack in a safe place because I had this laptop and other stuff. And so yeah, it was very terrifying and it was very scary. There was no guarantee that if one of them looks at the things or identified them, there was no guarantee that they couldn't harm or they didn't harm.

Nick:
Wow. So in the meantime, Noorzia and I were trying to do whatever we could to update the partner visa application in the hope that it would be processed sooner by adding more documents and just sending numerous follow up emails, making phone calls. And throughout that time, we kept on checking the Smartraveller website for up to date advice from the Australian government. Now, on the 25th of August, the advice was to proceed to the Abbey Gate at Kabul International Airport and talk to an Australian or a British soldier and show them your documents. Now, what happened when you did that, Ali?

Ali:
Actually, it was a day that I can't forget. But before speaking about what happened that day, I think this was a day that I was very frustrated and I asked Noorzia to speak with you and try to do what you could do or she could do. But I think I received a call on 24th, early morning, from the Australian government. I believe it was DFAT. So they asked me to go to Abbey Gate and that day, when they called me, I got more hopeful. And I thought maybe this time I could make it to the airport. When I reached the Abbey Gate, I found out that there was a sewage canal and the only way you could have an officer look at your document was to get into the sewage canal. It was filled with sewage as high as one meter.

Ali:
So I got into that sewage canal, waiting for the officers. I waited for a couple of hours. It was close to three o'clock in the afternoon that the Australian officers came by. So there were too many people trying to show their documents, asking the officers to have a look at their documents. I tried and one of the officers got my document. I was trying to say that my wife is in Australia and this is the email from the DFAT showing that I was on the evacuation flight list. And I had my printout of my partner visa application, and I had my marriage certificate and other documents including passport. So he had a look at my documents on 25th, I'm talking about 25th, 24th, no. He had a look at my documents and then he said, I didn't have a visa.

Ali:
I even had printout of my expired Australian visa that I had in 2019. And then he said that I didn't have a visa and he could not accept me. And then I say, "Sir, I beg you. My wife is in Australia. And I have this partner visa application pending for about two years." And he could see it on the first page of the visa application. And he said, "No, I can't help you. I can't accept you. You don't have a visa." It was a moment that I felt helpless the most. So coming back to 25th, I went back to that area. I couldn't just give in, hoping that maybe next time, another officer could have a look and maybe things have changed at this time. Maybe they accept me. But that day, when I went there on the 25th of August, they didn't come. The Australian officers didn't come many times.

Ali:
The only time they came, they only asked for Australian passport holders. They said only passport holders. Not even a visa holder. So they were not even accepting documents to show if someone had a visa or not. And they were also telling the other troops, the Americans who were more than others at the gate, telling that if there was any Australian passport holder, let them in, otherwise, no. So I stayed that day again in the sewage canals until it was early morning until 10 o'clock at night. And that's the time that I thought that no, it's not going to happen. [inaudible 00:40:28] And so I went back home.

Nick:
Okay. And then on the 26th of August, the Smartraveller advice from the Australian government changed, and they said to leave the airport and go home or find a safe place because there was an imminent threat of a terrorist attack. How scary was that?

Ali:
Yeah, it was very scary seeing there was many people. It was a very, very huge crowd. Later on, people hearing about Abbey Gate, too many people, like I said, thousands of people rushed into that gate. And I could feel like if anything would happen, it was possible. So I feel that there was an imminent threat, but I was... Like many more people, just tried to find a way, especially when I was hearing from other people, telling me that, "That's going to happen to you." Because of my background. Mentally, I didn't give up. So I was still thinking about a way. And I was even thinking if... I knew about this email and the [inaudible 00:41:32], but I was still thinking if I could go back and try another way until I could get exhausted or if there was no way.

Nick:
Yeah, no, that's understandable. So then, the predicted attack took place at 5:50 PM local time, when a suicide bomber approached the Abbey Gate and detonated himself. ISIS-K claimed responsibility for the attack, which killed 182 people, which included 169 Afghan civilians and 13 members of the US military. There were an issue of reports that a second bomb was detonated at the Baron Hotel. But then, that was later confirmed to be incorrect. Where were you at the time, Ali?

Ali:
Yeah, I remember that at that moment when the explosion happened, I was in the north gate. I didn't go to the Abbey Gate that day, but I was out, trying to get into the airport. And that day, I joined some folks who were trying to get into the airport from other gates. So I was in the north gate with many people seeing if we could get into the airport. Hearing that explosion happened at the Abbey Gate.

Nick:
Did you actually hear the explosion from there?

Ali:
Yes. I believe we were in a bus, many people, and we heard that because it was close to the... It was on the other side of the airport.

Nick:
Right. Okay. Now, as a result of the attack, Australia ceased their evacuation efforts. What were your thoughts at that point, Ali?

Ali:
I thought I felt very stranded and helpless. I thought it was over. Because the only way I thought I could get out was to get evacuated by the Australian government. But when I heard that they left and there was no personnel left at the airport, I just thought it was over. And I just thought if I could think of another way to get out. But it was definitely a feeling of very much of strandedness and hopelessness.

Nick:
Yeah. That's completely understandable. So Noorzia escaped Afghanistan to Pakistan with her family when she was nine years old. Was that something that you ever considered doing?

Ali:
Right. Yeah. Yes. Especially after hearing that the Australian mission was over, that was the only thing that came to my mind. Although I thought it was not the best option for me, but ever since I was... I really wanted to get out. So I thought maybe I was going to try that. In fact, I had even booked a flight in the early days of... After collapse of Kabul. I had booked a flight to Pakistan because I had a visa, a Pakistani visa. The reason I had the Pakistani visa was because I applied for that because I was going to give biometrics for Australian visitor visa, which is still pending.

Nick:
Oh, okay.

Ali:
Yeah. And I applied for the Australian visitor visa when Noorzia left. So I was planning to come to Australia around this time, November, to celebrate our wedding anniversary and to be together in new year. But who knows what was going to come. So yeah, traveling to Pakistan was the closest thing that came to my mind and even my parents and families were telling me to get out and go to Pakistan.

Nick:
Yeah. What would've been involved in traveling to Pakistan?

Ali:
I knew that it was very risky and dangerous because you might've been caught along the way and you might not have even made to Pakistan. And the other thing was that I heard that Pakistani government didn't even allow people to enter Pakistan with a visa. They wanted people to get into Pakistan as a refugee or something. So it was hard. And the border to Islamabad was closed. And I also heard that people going to [inaudible 00:45:39] where Noorzia lived for several years when they were waiting for their Australian visa, was a place where now, were getting too many people from Afghanistan. It was hard to find a house. So I know that it was not the best option. And I mean, recently, I've heard that people who went to Pakistan from Afghanistan, they were even caught or, I don't know, taken away from their residencies by, I don't know, whoever. So everything could have happened. I knew that it was not the best option, but when you're desperate, you're willing to fight as long as you can.

Nick:
Yeah, that makes sense. So on the 27th of August, I spoke to Noorzia and she told me that you managed to get a bus into the airport. How did that happen?

Ali:
So a colleague of mine had some contact who was organizing some kind of convoy for their staff and people. So I received help from my colleague and I got in contact with those people who were organizing the convoys and so I joined the convoy. The convoy was buses who were carrying people into the airport.

Nick:
So on the 28th of August, it was a Saturday night, I was at home with my family and I get a text message from Noorzia that simply said, "Hi, Nick. Thankfully, my husband is in Qatar now." And I have to say, it was probably one of the most relieved moments I've had in my career. Probably one of the most rewarding moments. Who evacuated you, Ali?

Ali:
So when I made into the airport, so obviously, the Australian personnel were not there. So the Americans were there, I believe. So the US government forces, their personnel admitted me to get onto their evacuation flight. So the US helped me there.

Nick:
What was the evacuation flight like?

Ali:
So it was a military airplane and the people on board needed to sit very tight, very closely to give space for as many people as possible. It was not ideal. I mean, personally, I needed to sit for some minutes and then I needed to stand up because it was hard to... And there was no seat at the military.

Nick:
Were you just sitting on the floor without straps or anything?

Ali:
Yeah.

Nick:
Oh, wow.

Ali:
Right. Yeah. So we're sitting on the floor and too many people sitting very tightly, very closely. So not much space to actually lie down or to... And it was several hours of flight. But on the other hand, since it was the first time that I felt a little bit relieved after those many attempts, so it was bearable.

Nick:
How many people were on the flight?

Ali:
I'm not sure about the number, but I would say it was packed. I don't know how many numbers that airplane could accommodate, but it might have been about roughly, I don't know, 600 or so.

Nick:
Wow. Okay. That's a lot. So the US completed their evacuation on the 30th of August. And you basically made the deadline by two days. How much of a relief was that?

Ali:
I was very happy. I mean, I had gone through a lot. So it was the first time I felt a little bit relieved. And when I made to the airport then to Qatar, I was very happy and I was very thankful that I was out, so I couldn't think of anything at that moment other than just feeling grateful that I made it out.

Nick:
Yeah, definitely. And where did you go after that?

Ali:
I stayed there in Qatar at a camp for one night, for about 24 hours. And then there was a flight. So I took that flight. I didn't initially know where that flight was going. So I took that flight and then once into the airplane, I realized that it was going to Germany. So after Qatar, I went to Germany.

Nick:
So you were basically just told to board a flight without anyone telling you where it was going.

Ali:
It was a big camp and people were there and whenever the door was opening, everyone was trying to rush into the door. I could have spoken with someone and I'm not sure if someone would've told me where the flight was going, but I was just trying to get out of the camp. And I was hoping that that was the flight taking us to US. Yeah, didn't know that this was going to other countries too. When I arrived in Qatar, I spoke with my wife and I asked her if she could try reaching out to MP or other people who could help, to see if there was a way for me to get relocated and join the Australian evacuees. I myself, actually spoke with a representative of the Department of Foreign Affairs, and at that time, they were saying that they were trying to help and sending an email to the embassy, Australian Embassy in Qatar.

Ali:
So the next day, it was actually midnight, I received a call from the DFAT and saying, telling me that they sent an email to the Australian Embassy in Qatar, and they also wanted me to get in contact with the embassy. I also sent an email to the Australian Embassy there, asking if there was a way, if they could help me join the Australian evacuees, so I could go to Australia. I didn't hear anything. I haven't heard anything from the embassy.

Nick:
Yeah, it's disappointing. Just no contact from the government whatsoever throughout this whole process, aside from when we actually called them and spoke to them directly. It's extremely disappointing. So what was the camp in Germany like, and how long did you stay there for?

Ali:
The camp in Germany was an air base. Actually, I stayed there in two places. Initially, I arrived in an air base and then we were moved to another camp, which were a military base again. I stayed there for one month and a half, I believe. So it was the first time I felt how refugee life looked like. I could not have imagined before how, if I had ever ended up finding myself in that situation. So things were different. Initially, it was difficult. I would say it was not perfect at all. There were some [inaudible 00:52:48] but as we were moved to another camp, things got better. But generally, I would say it was acceptable.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. And then you relocated to New Jersey.

Ali:
Right. Yeah. And then, yeah. We were moved to New Jersey.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. So, Ali, why do you think it was so easy for the Taliban to claim Kabul?

Ali:
Well, I think there may be several factors that may have contributed to the swift fall of Kabul. But as far as I think the Afghan government and leadership was concerned, I believe the former president of Afghanistan didn't demonstrate a sound leadership, a kind of leadership that could have probably prevented at least the swift fall of Kabul, if not falling as well. So to give you an example, he appointed a governor and some people at the military level in some very key provinces and those key provinces fell to the Taliban before Kabul fell.

Ali:
People were complaining and in the case of Ghazni, where he appointed a governor a few months before Kabul fell, and that governor was blatantly... Didn't do anything to prevent the fall of Ghazni and Ghazni is one of the key provinces and when the Taliban got control of Ghazni but then, they made their way onto Kabul. So I would say, generally, that if the former president had a kind of leadership that was not based on their ethnocentric view or... He probably could have done something that this sort of fall of Kabul couldn't have happened. But as I said, there are other factors too, not just the leadership [inaudible 00:54:49].

Nick:
Do you think the military actually wanted to fight for Afghanistan or were there just too many that were defecting to the Taliban?

Ali:
I think the military wanted to fight, but when I touch upon the leadership, it also means that... The army were not fed well, the army were not receiving their salaries on time. And those key provinces that I referred to, when they saw that those key provinces were given to the Taliban without much of resistance and they saw that the governors and other officers at the high level of military and civil, they didn't resist. They thought, the military thought that as if there was a deal to surrender to the Taliban, or as if if they had fought, they would not have the back of the central government. So they kind of lost the trust in central government and to the president himself. And when fled then, yeah. I mean, how could the military have thought that they could fight and they were being backed by the central government? [crosstalk 00:56:10] otherwise.

Nick:
Because he fled Afghanistan as soon as the Taliban claimed Kabul. He was gone.

Ali:
Right. Yeah.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. So you still have family in Afghanistan. What are they telling you about the current situation?

Ali:
Yeah. I have my parents and siblings and other relatives in Afghanistan. They're in Kabul and elsewhere, in Ghazni. I mean, they're not happy, of course. It's hard for them to live under the Taliban rule. So starting with my siblings, one of my sisters, younger sister just got admitted to university right before Kabul fell. And now, she thinks she would never get a chance to go to university. Although she fought very hard. She worked hard to get into university and she got into architecture. She wanted to be an engineer. And the two other sisters, they graduated from university and they were hoping they could have professional life, but now, it's not... It's gloomy. So my parents, they are not happy. They don't know what's going to happen to them, to their children. And they're also complaining about prices getting high and security is escalating. Not only targeted attacks, but also people who steal and attack houses. And there's not a government there to protect people from Taliban.

Nick:
Well, yeah. They're effectively being ruled by a terrorist organization.

Ali:
Right. So yeah, they're not happy and they seem very mentally impacted by what has happened over the past few months. And they don't know how they can leave. So they're just shocked.

Nick:
Yeah. I mean, did they expect that this could happen?

Ali:
I mean, for the youths, like my siblings, they couldn't have thought that this was going to come. But for my parents, since they have lived during the civil war and other wars, so they could have thought that maybe things were going to change. But I mean, since 20 years was a long time and things completely changed. Life changed, especially for my parents and the Hazara people. They would not also think that this was going to come, that once again, Taliban comes back to power.

Nick:
Yeah. I mean, it was a 20 year war that didn't really achieve anything because they're back to square one.

Ali:
Right. Yeah.

Nick:
Yeah. It's really sad. Yeah. My heart goes out to them. I just hope the situation improves. But I mean, when you hear the Taliban say they've changed, can you really believe that?

Ali:
No. I mean, no, that's just a face, a mask they're trying to wear that's maybe for political reasons, but... I mean, no one wants them and even if... I mean, they can't be an angel, even if they try to come up with their best version. No one can understand how they're going to deal with life and what's going to happen. I mean, for myself, being here at the camp, on the one hand, I'm happy that I got out because my parents were worried about me. But on the other hand, when I think about my family, my parents and siblings there, I can't do much for them. And I know that they're suffering and that's not the life they... I don't know what's going to happen. And I hope nothing harmful happens to them. I hope not.

Ali:
No one comes to our door and asking for me, because of my background and then [inaudible 01:00:08]. And then with my situation, like the visa, the Australian visa team, and now in the US, things are more complicated and I don't know when I can make it to Australia, or whether I can get settled in here in the States. On the other hand, I need to support them, at least financially, if I can't help them survive or get out of the country. Yeah, and it makes me think about the visa application, Australian visa application. I know that when Noorzia wasn't in Pakistan, her mother's visa application took several years and I have also heard from other Afghans, hearing that it takes so many years for their partner visa application getting processed. And so thinking about my own situation and other people, I was wondering if you had any insights about, into why it takes so long for Afghan partner visa applications to get processed by the Australian government?

Nick:
Yeah. It's a really good question. So I actually did a bit of research into this and in July this year, Julian Hill, the federal MP for Bruce, contacted the auditor general, requesting an examination into the processing times for partner visas, amongst other things. He pointed out that it takes the Department of Home Affairs, on average, 43 months to process Afghan partner visa applications compared to an average of seven months to process a US application. So that's more than six times as long. So just let that sink in. That's crazy. So he also pointed out that if the processing times were better, then many Afghans would have been safe in Australia and would have avoided the Taliban reclaiming government in Afghanistan. So the Department of Home Affairs, they claim that applications are processed in the order in which they are received, which we know that's not true.

Nick:
In further correspondence, Mr. Hill concluded that after reading the stats on partner visa processing times, that the process was blatantly discriminatory to the detriment of applicants who are citizens of non-English speaking countries, in particular, certain Middle Eastern and African nations. And I have to say, Ali, as a migration agent who's done over 200 partner visa applications in the last six years, that my experience with processing times for my clients is consistent with that. I would say that yeah, most of my US applicants, their applications are processed within six months. And then I have clients from places like Ghana and other places that take a lot longer than that. Pakistan's another one, very long processing times. So I was unable to find a decent explanation from the Department of Home Affairs. So I can really only draw my own conclusions. Now, every visa application has a public interest criteria that states that the applicant is not assessed by the Australian Security Intelligence Organization or ASIO, to be directly or indirectly a risk to security within the meaning of section four of the Australian Security Intelligence Organization Act.

Nick:
This ASIO clearance that is required for every partner visa application can often hold up the process. So it makes sense that a visa application for an Afghan applicant takes longer to process than an application for a US applicant because it's easier for ASIO to get information regarding a US national when compared to an Afghan national, just because of the information sharing between countries. So I could accept if the average time to process an Afghan application was twice as long, but six times as long is just completely unreasonable. And the only thing I can put it down to is discrimination and, or the application's being put in the too hard basket by the Department of Home Affairs. And that's just simply not good enough. So all we can really do is keep putting pressure on the Department of Home Affairs. When you were still in Afghanistan, we submitted a request for a priority processing, which is something the Department of Home Affairs will consider if there are compelling circumstances.

Nick:
So for example, we had a situation a few years ago with an applicant who had a job working in Melbourne. He was a doctor working in cancer research and his partner's application needed to be processed. They had a young child, and we were able to get that process as a priority because he had important work to do in Australia. And it was unreasonable to expect that his partner is separated from him because they had a young child. So that's just one example of where they will consider priority processing. I would've thought that your situation was definitely a valid priority processing case, but I actually have come up with another idea, which I think we should try. And are you happy to have a chat about this now?

Ali:
Yeah. Sure.

Nick:
Okay. So solicitor is on the medium to long term strategic skills list in Australia. So there's different lists and the medium to long term strategic skills list is basically the best list to be on because it means that you can apply for PR in Australia. So I think in your case, you may be eligible for an independent skilled visa. Now, there is a points test, which is based off age, education, work experience, English language ability, and a few other factors. And I ran the test and look, the pass mark for the test is 65 points. And from what I could see, if you were able to do, say, an IELTS test and get top marks on that, you'd probably get around about 70 points. Now, I'm not suggesting that you apply for a skilled visa, Ali, but what I'm saying is we should submit a request for priority processing to say that you are a highly skilled individual and you have a lot to contribute to Australian society.

Ali:
Yeah. I haven't heard about that. I mean, being now in the US, so obviously, a new life is on me. But since my wife is there, so it doesn't make sense for her to get out of Australia and [crosstalk 01:06:38] somewhere else. And I have never thought of that either. So if I don't get my visa anytime soon, then I'm kind of in limbo, being here and don't know what... And so to continue becoming a lawyer here, either in the US or in Australia, so it needs a strategy and it needs effort and resource and it needs to take place in an organized way. So the sooner I can get a visa to come to Australia, the better, so I can figure out and [inaudible 01:07:08].

Nick:
Okay. Well, I'm going to put that together and submit that to the department to see if they will consider that as priority processing.

Ali:
Yeah. That will be very good.

Nick:
I'll get back to you on that. So Noorzia contacted her local federal MP, Chris Bowen several times. Do you know if she had any responses from him?

Ali:
Yeah. So Noorzia reached out to federal MP Chris Bowen and his office was responsive. His office got back to Noorzia asking for information about me and information about my visa application. And they said that they were trying to see if there was a way for them to expedite my visa application. But after I got out of Afghanistan, Noorzia stopped reaching out to them and she hasn't heard anything from the MP's office, whether they had the opportunity to do anything or whether it worked or not.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. It may just be a case of the imminent threat's no longer there. You're safe now. But it's still not the ideal situation. So what are your plans for the future once you do arrive in Australia?

Ali:
I mean, I was thinking of, since I have invested my life into legal profession, I thought of trying to see if there was a way for me to get admitted into legal profession in Australia. I've done a little bit of research and it looks like it is a little more difficult in Australia than other jurisdictions like the US, particularly for people who haven't studied in Australia. And it looks like it takes several years and requires further education. So that's one of the things that I'm definitely thinking about. And if that is possible or if it doesn't take much time off my priorities, then I would definitely go for that.

Ali:
But if I think that then it would be many years and might not be the best option for me. I'm also interested in starting a business of myself. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense and Noorzia is also starting business. But I know it is a shift in career and I can just ignore my past and all the resources and investment I've made. So legal profession would be, obviously, the first thing that I would try to continue, but it depends on how things are there. And I can only know that when I'm there, so I can see what makes best sense for me.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. And Ali, is there anything our listeners can do to help?

Ali:
Sure. Definitely. So listeners can play their part to support the people of Afghanistan, particularly those being the most vulnerable. Including those who worked for or supported the Australian mission in Afghanistan and ethnic and religious minorities and women. And there may be several ways for the listeners to do that. One way is to call on Australian government and parliamentarians to take action for Afghanistan. I mean, in particular, listeners can call on the government to take immediate action to increase the humanitarian intake of refugees, prioritizing that, the most vulnerable and prosecuted people, to take action to expedite family reunification, visa applications of Afghans in Australia. And they can also call on government to use its resources and diplomatic channels to monitor the situation in Afghanistan, to protect the rights of women and the rights of minorities. So there may be many ways for them to do and the easiest way for the listeners to do is to go to a couple of websites and campaigns that activists have launched in Australia to call on the government. Do you mind if I direct listeners to those websites and campaigns?

Nick:
Yeah. Go for it. Yeah.

Ali:
They can go to saveafghanistannow.good.do/contact/mp, where they can send an email to their local federal MP to call on the government to take actions for the people of Afghanistan. Listeners can also go to actionforafghanistan.com.au, where they can sign a petition, which has been created for the same goals. And as I said, there maybe many ways for the listeners, for Australians, anyone who is monitoring the horrible situation in Afghanistan to do something. And I'm sure they can play their part in one way or another.

Nick:
Yeah. Okay. And I'll make sure that we put those websites in our show notes as well.

Ali:
Yeah, that would be great.

Nick:
Okay. Well, thanks for joining us today, Ali. You have an incredible story, which still has quite a few chapters left to tell. I know that once you do make it to Australia, you will be a great addition to our society. And if you're ever in Melbourne, please let me know, because it'd be great to actually meet Noorzia and yourself in person.

Ali:
Thank you very much, Nick, for having me to have this interview with you and thank you very much for all your support. And I really much look forward to meeting you in person.

Nick:
It's my pleasure, Ali. We'll talk again soon.

Evan:
Nick, mate, that was just an absolutely fantastic interview. And it's a real credit to Ali's character and his resilience because what I found with how he interviewed, he spoke so calmly and measured about what happened and what he went through, but what he outlined was literally survival. And I guess with this as well, it's not just Ali's story. It's also Noorzia's, his wife, because during this time, she was out of contact with him and she's got her husband at the other side of the world and she's hearing about what's happening in the news and Ali's family as well. So yeah, just absolutely fantastic that you could take the time to sit down with Ali, but Ali was also so willing of his journey, which happened so recently as well.

Nick:
Yeah. Thanks, Evan. Noorzia was just so calm throughout the whole process, even though she wasn't in contact with Ali, most of the time. It must have been really stressful and she kept a level head and was an absolute inspiration.

Evan:
And inspiration's a word which really covers the whole story that they've both gone through. But I mean, it's inspiration and about 100 other words. And the word inspiration doesn't really cut it fully. But I guess on that topic, what can people do if they've walked away from this podcast episode inspired to be able to help?

Nick:
So as Ali mentioned, there are steps that listeners can take to help the Afghan people. The 24 hour news cycle has moved on from Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean that these people don't need help. There are reports of targeted attacks on the Hazara community recently. On the 15th of October 2021, more than 30 people were killed and 70 people injured after another attack on a Shiite mosque in Kandahar. Again, ISIS-K have claimed responsibility. The Australian government has committed to an additional 3,000 places in the humanitarian program for Afghan nationals, which Scott Morrison, when he announced it, made it sound like he was bragging. This is in addition to 13,750 humanitarian visas granted each year. When compared to Canada and the UK who have committed to an additional 20,000 places, 3,000 doesn't really sound like a whole lot. So the first website that listers can visit is saveafghanistannow.good.do/contact/mp.

Nick:
This website makes it easy for listeners to send an email to their local MP. You just need to enter your home address and it will tell you who your local MP is. You then review the pre-written email and edit where you want, enter your personal details and hit send. The second website that Ali mentioned was www.actionforafghanistan.com.au. This is where you can sign a petition for the Australian government to take action. Now, both of these websites are urging the Australian government to commit to the following things, so the first one is make a similar commitment to Canada and the UK by committing to at least 20,000 additional places, prioritizing vulnerable and persecuted people such as the Hazara people.

Nick:
Second thing is grant pathways to permanent protection for Afghans already living in Australia. The humanitarian visas that have been granted are only temporary visas and in some cases, don't have pathways to permanent residency. The third thing is to prioritize family reunification visas of people from Afghanistan in Australia, including persons who are prevented from reuniting with their families due to a ministerial directive that requires the Department of Home Affairs to deprioritize the family reunions of hundreds of people from Afghanistan in Australia. And the fourth thing is lift the ban on resettlement of refugees to Australia through the UN high commissioner for refugees in Indonesia, which limits resettlement options for 10,000 refugees from Afghanistan.

Evan:
We have provided some fantastic insight there, Nick, into what people can do to help refugees and what is already occurring, that we can just open these links and piggyback off the hard work of others as well. But by making our voices heard, can be very powerful.

Nick:
Yeah, definitely. And we'll actually have these links in the show notes.

Evan:
Perfect. So Ali initially applied for a prospective marriage visa because at the time, he was not yet married to Noorzia. Are you able to provide some more insight and context into prospective marriage visas for the listeners?

Nick:
Yeah, sure. A prospective marriage visa is an offshore visa that allows an applicant to travel to Australia to get married to their sponsor and then apply for an onshore partner visa. This visa is a good option for persons who otherwise have no way of getting to Australia to apply for a partner visa. In some cases, we have clients that have had numerous visitor visa refusals and, or they don't have enough evidence of their relationship to apply for an offshore partner visa. The reason why it is a little bit easier is because the requirement's for the applicant and sponsor to have met each other in person at least once, have evidence of getting married, so for example, a letter from their marriage celebrant, and for them to also show that they're committing to living together as a married couple.

Evan:
So you mentioned that Ali's application was converted to a partner visa application after they were married. How does this work?

Nick:
So if someone applies for a prospective marriage visa and then gets married before the visa's granted, under the migration regulations, they've taken to automatically have applied for a partner visa. Once the Department of Home Affairs are notified of the marriage, they should provide confirmation of a valid partner visa application and ask for the prospective marriage visa application to be withdrawn. If you are considering applying for a partner visa or a prospective marriage visa, and would like to discuss your options, feel free to visit hansenmigration.com.au. That's H-A-N-S-E-N migration.com.au, and book a free consultation.

Evan:
In the last episode of Journey to Oz, we mentioned that the Australian border was going to open for certain temporary visa holders, as well as for visitors from Japan and Korea. But this has since been delayed until 15th of December 2021, while the Australian government considers how to approach the Omicron variant of the coronavirus.

Nick:
Yeah. Throughout the pandemic, the border situation has constantly changed. So we suggest keeping an eye on the Department of Home Affairs website for the latest updates. I'm also writing blogs and posting them on the Hansen Migration website with any updates. They're probably not going to be as up to date as the department website, but I do try to put them in more simple terms.

Evan:
I actually said to someone this morning that before the pandemic, migration law in Australia was always the fastest and most frequently changing area of law in Australia. But with the border closures and the borders reopening and changing, it's literally day by day, and I've had clients where I've had to call and say the good news, "You can now come to Australia, let's get the visa started." To then have to call them two, three days later to say, "Look, sorry. Because of this change and that change, the goal post had now changed this." So we'll make sure we keep listeners updated and as mentioned, the Hansen Migration blog post as well.

Nick:
You also have blogs on the Worldly Migration website as well.

Evan:
And yeah, updates to social media too. Thank you for listening to the Journey to Oz podcast. If you have liked what you've heard, please subscribe and also leave us a review. We usually release a new episode every second Tuesday. And we'll be taking a break, so the next episode will be released on the 12th of January. We wish you and your family a safe and happy festive period. And we look forward to talking to you again in the new year.

Speaker 1:
The Journey to Oz podcast is produced by Nick Hansen from Hansen Migration, migration agent registration number 1679147, and Evan Bishop from Worldly Migration, migration agent registration number 1679414. Any information discussed in this podcast is made available for entertainment purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. We do not make any guarantee or accept any responsibility for the accuracy and completeness of any of the information discussed. You should obtain advice from a registered migration agent or immigration lawyer before acting on any of the content discussed in this podcast. You can find a list of registered migration agents by visiting mara.gov.au.

Speaker 1:
The information contained within this podcast may not be reproduced without our prior written consent. In the spirit of reconciliation, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of land throughout Australia and pay respects to their elders. We extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders today. Thank you for listening.