Hamden Library Podcast
Hamden Library Podcast
Horror Movie Discussion
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We tried something different for this episode. Since it is October, we decided to celebrate the season with an hour-long discussion of horror films (and some books, of course)! Don't be scared, we promise it's fun.
CW: Discussion of horror films, brief mention of body horror imagery, brief mention of rape
Michael Pierry
Hello, and welcome to lucky episode 13 of the library podcast. I'm your host, Michael Pierry, and this month, in celebration of this spooky season, we have a special Halloween treat for you. Instead of our usual format, we decided to cut loose and have a fun, freewheeling discussion about a much loved but also much maligned cinematic art form: scary movies. It was a great conversation, and we cover a lot of ground. So even if horror isn't your thing, we think you'll enjoy listening to it. We talk a lot about genre films in general and why it is that some people like to be scared, and others don't. In addition to myself, the participants were co host and library Associate Director Alyssa Bussard, and our resident movie expert, Mike Wheatley. Anyway, without further ado, please enjoy our Hamden Library Podcast horror movie discussion. Hello, Mike, how are you doing?
Mike Wheatley
Hello? Hey, great.
Michael Pierry
Hey, Alyssa. How are you?
Alyssa Bussard
Hi. How are you?
Michael Pierry
I'm good. Thank you. So um, we want to talk about-- it's October. So we're going to talk about horror films, the genre and just sort of an appreciation and sort of a discussion about it, and maybe have some specific movies we like and don't like, but we'll see, as we go, how it goes. So I wanted to start off just asking the question just to ground us: what is a horror movie? And why do we enjoy horror movies and being scared by them?
Mike Wheatley
Go ahead, Alyssa.
Alyssa Bussard
Okay. Well, we were just kind of chatting before we started recording about this. And what really defines horror? I'm not really sure. I think horror is different for everybody. , I think everybody kind of has a different limit, and something that scares them. , for example, I can watch any horror film and have no problem. But then there may be a certain trigger or a clown, and I may have a really hard time, . It depends on what - and it also depends on your mood and how you feel. And like I said, some people can watch things with fantasy elements, or with demons and all that stuff and have no problem and then can't watch anything that's realistic, because it's too close to home for them, or vice versa. I know people who can watch horror films that have real elements, home invasion, things like that, but can't watch anything that has to do with demons or anything like that. And I think that that is the beauty of horror is that there's so many different elements, and there's so many different ways to scare people out there. So it really depends on how you can get under people's skin. Some things I watch and I laugh, my mother and I spend a lot of time -- I mean, truly, we laugh and it's just hilarious. And then at the same time, it could be scaring somebody next to us in the theater, because I think it depends on what your triggers are.
Mike Wheatley
I think part of the definition of horror, you have to kind of look to our kind of roots. , it's like, the fight or flight kind of syndrome. , a lot of people have talked about adrenaline raising movies so that, that kind of, when people in the theater kind of laugh at something because it's it's too disturbing for them to kind of process--
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
--and, but there have been a lot of scientific research too on that it actually physically gives us brain endorphins, when we get scared, that basically, we spend so much time behind a desk and kind of living our lives, kind of with a certain routine, and I think horror movies get us outside of the routine and get us, kind of prepared for a chainsaw murder--
Michael Pierry
Just in case.
Mike Wheatley
Just in case, you never know. And but I mean real life emergencies happen. And everyone's afraid like of how they will react. And so I think a lot of that like, is -and part of it is humor I think. I agree with you that a lot of horror movies are designed, movies like "Cabin in the Woods", which are great movies that kind of parody all of the genres, has great horror, but it also has great humor. And so I agree.
Michael Pierry
Yeah, so it's sort of - with the fight or flight response, it's almost part of it could be just like, sort of testing your fight or flight response, like, safely in a controlled setting. I did read that in one of the articles I was looking at, at the "Harvard Business Review" that you have to have a certain level of feeling of safety, in order to safely enjoy a horror movie. You have to be feel physically safe and psychologically safe in order to actually enjoy the horror movie, because if you actually feel too much empathy or anxiety around the person who is in the movie, or the people who are in the movie that are being, hurt or attacked, or scared or whatever, then you might not be able to enjoy it.
Mike Wheatley
Which is kind of interesting, because I need to have empathy for my characters in order for me to enjoy a movie. And, and kind of that's gotten in the way of a lot of movies where I really could care less, and a lot of contemporary kind of gore fest, horror, it kind of makes the characters kind of reprehensible. So you don't mind them being chopped up, which is really strange.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
Right. Sometimes they make decisions that you're just like, why are you going there? What are you doing?
Michael Pierry
Yes
Mike Wheatley
[Laughter]
Alyssa Bussard
--and it makes me kind of sometimes feel like it takes me out of it a little bit.
Michael Pierry
That's almost a horror cliche, right?
Alyssa Bussard
Because who knows how we would--
Mike Wheatley
Right. Right. And the whole "Scream", like, or--
Alyssa Bussard
Yes.
Mike Wheatley
That kind of, that whole, is kind of set up with that premise.
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah, there's a lot of horror movies that use the cliché against the audience, kind of yelling "Don't go in there!"
Alyssa Bussard
Right. Right. Yeah.
Michael Pierry
Yeah. So that actually takes us quite smoothly as a transition into the next question I had, which is, what makes a horror movie work for you or not work for you? Generally?
Alyssa Bussard
Well, for me, I gotta be honest with you. Like I said, I have a very high threshold. So my mom raised me on horror movies. So I do not get scared very easily. And I also know my triggers. So there are some things that are just too much for me that I wouldn't enjoy the horror. So I can't watch them. And that's pretty much realistic things. And for the most part, I enjoy them just for what they are, because it's hard for me to enjoy them as something that's going to scare me, with the exception of very few movies that I still, to this day, think about because they scared me so long ago. And it's kind of like--
Michael Pierry
Would you care to name any of those?
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah. So for me, and it's scenes, it's scenes that have helped me, so -- or helped me remember them is what I mean. So, for example, "Texas Chainsaw Massacre". So I remember seeing that, , the remake. I remember seeing it -- I think I was in high school -- in the theater. And there's one scene that -- actually two scenes that stand out for me. There's one scene where they're sitting at a dinner table, and the one guy looks over at his girlfriend, and she opens her mouth, and all of her teeth have been pulled, and the fear, but also, I guess, horror that he feels and seeing that, I still remember, like right now talking about it, like it's like gut wrenching. And then there's another scene where the one guy is being pulled away by the Texas Chainsaw person, and - by the killer, and his arm kind of falls behind him and an engagement ring falls out of his hand. And there was this whole scene about him proposing to his girlfriend who's also there at this house. And so, what we were saying about how you feel the empathy for the characters?
Okay, yes, it's horrific what's happening to them, but I think about that, to this day that like "he didn't get to propose" and I think about how they sat there and, and all of that. And then there was another movie, "The Hills Have Eyes", and I, I can watch anything. And I'll tell you. That movie scared me -- not scared me, that movie bothered me so much that I started to watch the second film, when it came out. And I remember, it was the opening credits. And -- this is gonna be a spoilery episode, everyone-- but so, the first movie, two things happen. Their father gets set on fire, alive, and that I can't stop thinking about that still to this day. This is probably 12 years ago. And--
Michael Pierry
We have to put a content warning on this.
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, 100%.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah [Laughter]
Alyssa Bussard
I was gonna say right now, for sure, because another person gets raped. And those two things bothered me so bad that-- the first scene in the second movie is her actually giving birth to that child.
Michael Pierry
Mmmhmm.
Alyssa Bussard
And I turned it off. I had to turn it-- I couldn't watch it. And it was like, just remembering how I felt watching that, it was horrific. And then bringing us a little bit more recent is, I had a phobia of clowns. I'm much better now. But when I was little, I had a phobia. And I remember watching the original "It" and it scared me so bad. I was way too young to be watching it, but it scared me. Well, I watched the new one recently. And it was so well done. It was so amazing. The characters were so great. , the person who played It was just fantastic in every single way: the voice, the mannerisms, everything, that it was amazing. I remember being scared, because it was scary. But also because it was amazing. Like, I can't, I can't recommend it enough because it was so well done. And I'm just trying to build my kids up to be able to watch this movie with me right now because I want them to see it so bad because it was so good. ? So yeah, I think there's a lot of different aspects that really makes it work. And it's going to be different for everybody, I think as well.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. I agree that the kind of as I said before, the kinds of, , films that I like are films where I can kind of empathize with the characters or I feel a connection with the characters. And if I don't feel connection with characters, then , I'm in the movie really is falling short to start with. So I'm not really getting involved in the movie. So any kind of torture porn movies --
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah
Mike Wheatley
The "Saw" series or "Hostel", , like those movies, , like, again, they start with characters who are less than reasonable people to start with, --
Alyssa Bussard
Mmmhmm
Mike Wheatley
and then it basically puts them through hell... raiser is another another kind of, which there's actually a new "Hellraiser" coming out.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
So, a lot of the series, like, are still running. I do like a good story. I like -- the majority of Stephen King films are not as well made as the books.
Right.
There are several that are wonderfully done, like you said with the remake of the "IT" series or "Doctor Sleep" is one that I would recommend really highly, which is the follow up to "The Shining", which the Kubrick "Shining" I have a lot of issues with in terms of the book. It's a Jack Nicholson movie, not -- the child in the movie is the hero in the book. And that character is carried forth into "Doctor Sleep" as an adult and the issues that he has as an adult and he's very well drawn. Ewan McGregor plays him. But that's the kind of kind of horror film--
Or, I mean, I do love my comedies, "Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein"--
Alyssa Bussard
Yes.
Mike Wheatley
--is still one of my favorites.
Alyssa Bussard
My favorite, yes.
Mike Wheatley
It's just, I just love the effects that they did in it and--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
--and they kept to the original, kind of Universal trope, kind of monsters in it,
Alyssa Bussard
Right, yeah.
Mike Wheatley
--and it has a wonderful female villain in it. The doctor in it is a really great, like, kind of foil for everyone.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah, I agree with that. It's one of my favorites as well. I watch it multiple times a year.
Mike Wheatley
I know.
Michael Pierry
Nice. Yeah, one of the things that I tend to dislike in a horror movie is when they overuse certain tropes, like we were talking about earlier about, why did they do that? Why did they go into the -- why did they split up, why did they go into the house? Why are they exploring these obvious, there's a noise and they're obviously going into danger? And jumpscares are a specific example of that. It's like a horror movie classic to the point where now I'm just like, I can tell just by how the shot is set up.
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Michael Pierry
Like, oh, you're not letting me see what's behind them. I mean, it's either going to be a jumpscare, or it's a fakeout for a jumpscare.
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Michael Pierry
And then later on, you're going to give me the real jumpscare. So that kind of thing. I'm just like, "Okay, I'm just waiting for it. And I'm not, I'm not participating in this". But I like more of a mood or an atmosphere of like, dread, that kind of thing. More of a psychological angle to it, or a folk angle to it. A little bit more of an element of the unknown.
Mike Wheatley
I'll give you a great, great example for you. I don't know if you've seen both of them. But Shirley Jackson wrote a book called "The Haunting of Hill House".
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And it's been done several times now, was even a TV series, which isn't too badly done. But Robert Wise directed an original movie with it. And it was a great atmospheric horror movie. And the question is whether or not this is in her mind, or, like, whether or not it's actually, it's definitely a haunted house where the house itself is evil.
Alyssa Bussard
Mmmhmm
Mike Wheatley
And it was remade with Catherine Zeta Jones, called "The Haunting". It did exactly what you were saying. It basically depended on the jumpscares and a couple of them kind of worked. But that's, so much of the movie kind of de-emphasized the psychological, atmospheric, the effects of it, that it left you with the question of, why did you remake a classic?
Michael Pierry
And another word comes to mind as I was kind of getting at was, is ambiguity. Like what you said about the protagonist in at least the original, you don't know if it's all in their head or not. I love when it's like that.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah.
Michael Pierry
Also, I think that when it comes to portraying - I mean, I'm of two minds, like the portrayal of the villain or the evil thing that you're supposed to be afraid of. In general, I feel like, less is more. It's like, the classic example of "Jaws". You don't even see the shark for most of the movie.
Alyssa Bussard
Right
Mike Wheatley
[Laughter]
Michael Pierry
And that makes it much more-- they had to do that because of the design of the creature, the shark, was not so good. But they did a lot with a little and--
Mike Wheatley
But they can do that today.
Michael Pierry
They can do that today, as well, and it's a good example. Sometimes, though, a monster is fun, like monster designs can be fun, that's--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah
Michael Pierry
--almost a different aesthetic thing to actually being scared is like, monster movies can be just fun as, like, "well, look at this strange creature," so--
Alyssa Bussard
Absolutely.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah.
Michael Pierry
And yeah, that goes into like, sci-fi kind of horror, the sort of, the blending of the two things like "Alien".
Mike Wheatley
I know, that's one of my top horror films.
Michael Pierry
I love "Alien", and I love "The Thing".
Mike Wheatley
I saw the James Arness "Thing", the 1950s version of "The Thing" first, before I saw anything else, I kind of grew up on it. And it's like, I could never really warm to the Carpenter, to the new. And it's funny, because I think if I had seen that first, I would have liked that film a lot more than-- than keep on constantly comparing it to a film. But--
Michael Pierry
Well, what I like about the Carpenter version-- I mean, the special effects are really neat. But what I really like is the the claustrophobia and the feeling amongst everyone of like, you don't know who who to trust--
Alyssa Bussard
Mmmhmm, exactly.
Michael Pierry
--who is a real person and who has been taken over by this entity, you have no way of knowing. So it's just this great kind of potboiler in that way.
Mike Wheatley
Right. Well, that stems all the way back to the--
Michael Pierry
Original.
Mike Wheatley
--earliest. Well, also to "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers", the different versions of that, which are great. Us versus them, fear of conformity, fear of -- the original was set during the 1950s during the House of Un-American Activities, and it definitely has parallels to McCarthyism. Which kind of also brings us into that horror films are a period of time. The age that you live in is definitely significant for the way that horror films are made and horror film historians kind of divide horror films up into epochs. It's not like there's always exceptions, but but you can see where slasher films, like, kind of all of a sudden will hit the market and a whole bunch of slasher films will start, like, appearing.
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Michael Pierry
Is that something where you -- they tend to point to something going on in the culture?
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. Yeah, in the culture, slasher films in the 80s they felt was a direct result of the Vietnam War.
Alyssa Bussard
Hmm.
Mike Wheatley
That people coming home from, like, Vietnam and the way that-- that kind of, almost a reaction against the counterculture, or there was so much in the general populace of the concept of hippie dominance, that kind of, everything is free and everything is open and you trust everybody.
Alyssa Bussard
Mmmhmm.
Mike Wheatley
And you have these great communal-- so there was kind of an inverse that films like "Deliverance", like, were coming out, and "Deliverance" is a horror film. In its own way it is.
Michael Pierry
It is, yeah.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. But you have culture, basically, attacks and cults.
Michael Pierry
Mmmhmm.
Mike Wheatley
A lot of cult horror came, like after the 60s and flower children. [Laughs]
Michael Pierry
I can't help but think of the original "Wicker Man".
Mike Wheatley
Yes.
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, yeah.
Mike Wheatley
Yes.
Michael Pierry
Not the Nicolas Cage version.
Mike Wheatley
And, right. Yeah. And I don't know if you had any chance to watch any more of the documentary on folk horror, but folk horror is definitely, where you have a lot of tribal kind of sensibilities, where the growing-- the "Children of the Corn", we have to have blood sacrifices in order to make the crops grow.
Michael Pierry
Yep.
Mike Wheatley
And that's a recurrent theme. Films like "Midsommar", recently.
Alyssa Bussard
Right. Yeah.
Michael Pierry
So speaking of recently, what is happening? What is the trend now in horror, and how is it different from past decades? I think we're well past slasher films at this point.
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, yeah.
Mike Wheatley
Well, we're not past slasher films. I don't think--
Alyssa Bussard
Ever. Will we ever be?
Mike Wheatley
No, no.
Michael Pierry
Well, there is always gonna be some, but--
Mike Wheatley
Yeah, yeah. But I think you're right, I think the marketability of slasher films-- the marketability of found footage, for instance, that kind of came after "The Blair Witch Project".
Michael Pierry
Mmmhmm.
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Mike Wheatley
"The Blair Witch Project" was made on pennies and made billions of dollars. So all of a sudden found footage, like, became a huge -- "Paranormal," kind of is the first one, and then you have the sixth.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And if one thing is good, like, a dozen is even better. [Laughter] And people go to see movies, or they stream them or rent them or do whatever they're doing these days.
And streaming is a really important, I think, change. You're seeing a lot more experimentation going on. And at one point, a director going to television was kind of seen as a second kind of lower step. If you were artistic, if you wanted to-- you didn't do things on TV, made-for-TV movies, so forth and so on.
Michael Pierry
Yeah, absolutely.
Mike Wheatley
Maybe the exception being Steven Spielberg, who started with a horror movie called "Duel", which was a movie about a poor salesman out in the desert, being chased by a truck. A huge truck. And it was kind of man versus beast, kind of highway, kind of horror.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
But I think, personally, I think today, horror has kind of opened itself up wider. You have more reputable, very intelligent directors experimenting with the media. And I think at this point money in streaming has allowed them freedom to kind of do things that they didn't do in the past. So-- and I think a lot more folk horror. I wrote down in my questions: do you consider "The Handmaid's Tale" a horror series?
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would, but it--
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Alyssa Bussard
--it's gonna be directly related to what's triggering to me.
Mike Wheatley
Right. Absolutely. Right.
Alyssa Bussard
Yes.
Mike Wheatley
And are men gonna feel stronger that way than women?
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah, that's a good question.
Mike Wheatley
Right?
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
That's the beauty, , one of my favorite shows, I know we're doing movies here, but one of my favorite shows is "American Horror Story". And the reason I love it so much is because it has something different for everyone. Not necessarily every season does, like within the season, but every season is different. So every season has a different kind of, , trigger for lack of a better word.
So right now I'm watching the first season with my kids. And it's very psychological, it really gets in your mind, and what's real, what's not real, and then the second season is-- it's in an asylum. So you have like that kind of horror of what's realistic horror happening in Asylum. Now, on the flip side, there are also aliens. So there is that too. But then you get into a season about, it's Coven, you get into the season about witches. So there's that horror and torture and things like that. And then you go into an episode, or a season rather, that has, oh, gosh, who's the clown murderer?
Mike Wheatley
Oh.
Michael Pierry
Gacy?
Alyssa Bussard
Gacy, thank you. So he, it's not him in this season, I don't believe but there is a clown. And it's scary. And then there are, , different elements of that, then there's a season that is all about the 80s slasher, as well, and then there was an apocalypse. So it's like what happens when the world ends?
So really, every season has something different. And it's kind of funny, because my youngest is very scared easily. Or she was, but we're desensitizing her because I'm the best mom ever. And, , it's kind of rough, because she's not really scared of this season. And I'm like, "Ooh, boy, wait until we get to season four", what I mean?
Everyone
[Laughter]
Alyssa Bussard
I'm just like, "yeah, it's great". And it's so but it's different, or something different. I will say that the later seasons, they do get a little bit into a lot more gore. And in the beginning, they didn't do that. So in the beginning, like season one doesn't really have that. I mean, there is some don't get me wrong, they cross that line. But it's not just blood and slashing up someone's stomach, so their intestines fall out, which happens in a later season. And that was a little bit much for me. And it was like, years after I had started watching it. So it was like, "Is it a little bit much for me, because at this point I have kids?" or --
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Alyssa Bussard
"Why is it different for me now?" What, why is this trigger changed for me when before it really wouldn't have bothered me? So I think that's pretty awesome that they do something different. And they have a season I think with-- one of the seasons -- Hotel, I think -- had vampires and things like that. So they really bring it to every different kind of thing that you can think about when it comes to horror. So it's pretty interesting.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah, yeah. I think that has to do with that empathize--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah, completely.
Mike Wheatley
And you can empathize at different points in your life. And, , if because of personal trauma you have cut yourself off from empathizing, I think it can either go two ways: you can either avoid or, like, things like slasher movies won't bother you at all because you're not empathizing.
Alyssa Bussard
Right. Exactly.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. Yeah. But I think, I do think in terms of the future of horror movies that I see many, all the genres of horror movies, kind of being honored at this particular point in time, that there's kind of-- we're way beyond, like, Universal horror, like with a Frankenstein and with--
Alyssa Bussard
Yes. Which are my favorites. Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. And also, what about literature? It's like, now I think we're looking at a lot of graphic novel adaptations. That's kind of almost the literature of our generation at this particular point in time.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And so you, because so much of literature in the past,"Frankenstein", as we mentioned, and "Dracula", and all of these started out as books.
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Mike Wheatley
And so many of the great films that we've seen, there's no reference in the movie to the literature behind it, which I find really fascinating that-- I was talking about Shirley Jackson and "The Haunting" earlier.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
But I would recommend to everyone to kind of, when you see a movie that you like, see if there was a book that was identified with it.
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, yeah.
Mike Wheatley
But especially horror films are based either on front pages or, like you were saying, the different news situations, or they're "The Omen", which was based on a book.
Michael Pierry
This is a library podcast, we are obligated to push books at you.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Pierry
I do agree. I absolutely agree. And I used to think it was a good idea to read the book first and then watch the movie, and I've changed my mind.
Alyssa Bussard
Mmmhmm.
Mike Wheatley
[Laughter]
Michael Pierry
I think it's better to watch the movie first and then read the book. Because a lot of times you'll say, Oh, the book was better. Well, this way, you're going from something that might be good to something even better, or it might be bad, and you're going into something good. So--
Alyssa Bussard
Well, there's some things that have been done over and over, too. I mean, for "The Haunting", of course, it's been done. But the new show, that season was amazing, in my opinion, and then "Turning of the Screw", which I've read so many different variations of, the second season was "Bly Manor". I believe that--
Michael Pierry
Yeah
Alyssa Bussard
"The Haunting of Bly Manor" and that was also amazing. And I just--
Michael Pierry
Who's the show--
Alyssa Bussard
I gotta tell--
Michael Pierry
Who was the creator? What's his name?
Alyssa Bussard
Is it Mike Flanagan?
Michael Pierry
Mike Flanagan.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Pierry
Fantastic. Fantastic.
Alyssa Bussard
Great. And so I just--
Mike Wheatley
He also did "Doctor Sleep", the really good adaption.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah, yeah. So at this point, I'm like, just a fan girl, like, I'll watch anything. But I just read a book. And I was like, Oh, I'm reading it. And I'm picturing these characters and I realized, I didn't know when I started it, that it was a retelling of "The Turning of the Screw". And then I'm picturing the characters from "Bly Manor". And I was like, there, it's just been done so many times that sometimes these shows, these adaptations are so different, in a really awesome way, while still keeping that classic feel, so I really love that. I'm really looking forward to the third season of that show. It's going to be one of Edgar Allan Poe's works. Excited about that. Yeah, I can't wait.
Michael Pierry
I'm just putting a note to myself in here to mention everything we talked about here in the show notes so that people can find these things.
Mike Wheatley
Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, providing a list. Maybe I can do that is provide a list of some literature that has been adapted.
Michael Pierry
Sure. Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
People would be surprised as to what, like you said, "Turning of the Screw" has been done so many times. So can we talk about kids films for a little bit?
Michael Pierry
Yeah, sure.
Mike Wheatley
That's a really tough thing for parents, you were talking earlier about desensitizing your children, like to certain movies. And I understand exactly what you're saying, you're saying kids need to know that this is a movie, this is not real life. And so other parents might avoid that and it's like, kids movies. I was talking to Michael earlier about how I feel like it's difficult for directors and for producers of films, to kind of straddle that line between what is appropriate these days, because there is such a great divide in our country and, and pleasing everyone is impossible, obviously. So you just have to go kind of with your gut, but the Tim Burton films--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
--incredibly well made. The films like "Nightmare on Elm Street"-- excuse me, "Nightmare Before Christmas" [laughs].
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, my favorite. Yes.
Mike Wheatley
Right. Right. Right.
Michael Pierry
Two rather different films.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. Slightly. But also, like, one of his earlier films was "Frankenweenie".
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
If you've ever seen that, or "Corpse Bride" is something he did recently.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Mike Wheatley
They're just very artistic and, and very, very well done. But they might, you got to be careful because you may be watching it with a four year old or a three year old.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah,
Mike Wheatley
And definitely not appropriate.
Alyssa Bussard
No.
Mike Wheatley
There's a film that I recommend to parents a lot at the video store called "Monster House", where it's a haunted house mystery in animation, where the house literally eats the people.
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, boy. Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And, and it can be really kind of jarring. But I tell parents, "you have to watch through the credits". Because at the end of the film, you find out what happens to everyone. And, and kind of, it's that sense of kind of completion. what I mean?
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Mike Wheatley
It's like, questions that are left in a child's mind. And, and you shouldn't leave your child to watch these movies.
Michael Pierry
No.
Mike Wheatley
You should watch these movies with your children.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, same thing with like "Hotel Transylvania" and movies like that. I mean, they're, they're funny, but they still could be scary.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
I just want to, for the record, state that both of my children are very grown. They're both older teenagers. I don't have five year olds that I'm peeling their eyes open to watch horror.
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Alyssa Bussard
But right, my younger daughter, she was so scared that I remember they-- I think she and her father watched "Spiderman". And she was so afraid of the villain, Venom, that she had nightmares. And it's like, "You're grown. Let's not do this," so. And she's embraced it, she wants to watch. So I'm trying to-- she's like, ready. She's like, ready for anything. And I'm like, let's just ease in. So right now we're doing all like "The Conjuring" films, because she was very afraid of the nun. So we're doing them all and like, we're doing them during the day, we're both doing our cross stitch, we have the lights on and everything and she's doing great. And like now I said, she's watching "American Horror Story" with us. And it's just, I'm careful with what I do show. But for me, it's more of, I know my kid, and I know what might trigger her.
Mike Wheatley
Right, and you're-- and you're with them.
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, yeah. And like I said, we have all the lights on, we're like, it's like a party. And afterwards, we may or may not put an episode on of like, a Disney show or something.
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Alyssa Bussard
Even though we're grown. But no, we're having-- it's easing them in. And I think it's important because she really wanted to take part in that. And I was like, no, I'm not gonna let you watch this. And I have her older sister with me and she wanted to. So I'm like, all right, let's do this, like, a little bit at a time because I don't want her to miss out on on all of that. So it's very interesting to see that difference. And again, I'm careful with what I-- I know what she's afraid of and I'm not just gonna put that on in the background like "surprise".
Mike Wheatley
Right, and obviously, anything that really disturbs us is going to be carried through to a child, you know?
Alyssa Bussard
Right.
Mike Wheatley
But I have to say that you can't protect kids from the news, you know?
Alyssa Bussard
No, right, absolutely.
Mike Wheatley
And I've been with children who have been terrified at things that have happened on the news.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And so
Alyssa Bussard
Absolutely. Yeah. So, Michael--
Michael Pierry
Okay.
Mike Wheatley
Anything about kids films, Michael?
Michael Pierry
I think I was a child at one point.
Alyssa Bussard
I don't know.
Michael Pierry
It's hard to tell. My experience growing up was that I was not exposed to a lot of horror. And the one time I was, inadvertently, I was at my cousin's house, and somebody was watching "Return of the Living Dead," which is not actually a particularly scary movie, really, it's more of a comedy horror movie, but I was too young for it. And it disturbed me. So yeah, it is important to have that parental supervision because-- it could be, it's not just age, it's also the disposition, the personality of your child. You have to know them. So like, it is important to, if they're gonna let them watch something to be there to supervise. So, yeah, that's what I would say.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. When people ask me about a horror movie in general, I say, what are you afraid of?
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And I think that carries through to a parent with a child. You know your child, and to deal with your child's fears. I found "Alice in Wonderland" as a child as frightening as hell. "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory", "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory". There's a scene in the boat that is in--
Alyssa Bussard
Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Mike Wheatley
--which is one of the 10 scariest moments in children's film. "Coraline", with the mother with-- this fantasy mother who is sewing buttons, who wants to take the child's eyes--
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And turn them into buttons is-- we don't think that much of it. But a young child would be--
Alyssa Bussard
absolutely
Mike Wheatley
--terrified.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Michael Pierry
Okay, so just one last thing, I think is, um, I wanted to talk about horror being mainstream -- more mainstream or rehabilitated. And the way I phrased it in the questions was talking about how "The Shape of Water" got Best Picture a few years ago--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Michael Pierry
--and that's not quite a horror movie, but it is a monster movie, basically, and just sort of what that means for genre films in general being a little bit more recognized by the Academy. And one of the things I wanted to talk about, or maybe this is a dead end, I don't know, but just the way that our culture has changed. And I think that's what's reflected here, is the way that the culture has changed. Like, in the past, if you look at the way that art was delineated or taught, you had like, high art and low art. You had the elitist or the classical versus the popular stuff. You had high literature and then you had genre literature. You had high art and then you had comic books. You know, any kind of medium you want, you had like the rarefied, traditional or elitist version, and then you had the pop or folk version. And now, that still exists, but it's a little more mixed up. And also people aren't afraid to mix those things up. And they're not afraid to say, "Yeah, I like that stuff. And I appreciate it. And it's just as important to me as the other" and I think that's a really good healthy thing for our society. I'm not sure exactly how to account for it. I have different theories about why that could be. But um, yeah, I think it's really a positive thing that different genres such as horror are being given a little bit more mainstream consideration. I don't know if horror per se is going to ever -- you're not gonna, I don't think you're gonna see a slasher movie win at the Oscars.
Alyssa Bussard
No, but you're gonna see things like Jordan Peele.
Michael Pierry
Yeah --
Alyssa Bussard
I mean --
Michael Pierry
Absolutely.
Alyssa Bussard
Movies like that are--
Mike Wheatley
yeah, is --
Alyssa Bussard
Coming out.
Mike Wheatley
Is "Parasite" the Korean movie that won the Oscar?
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
I mean, that has definite horror kind of elements to it --
Michael Pierry
Mmmhmm.
Mike Wheatley
And it has that kind of paranoia and fear that-- "Hereditary", Toni Collette and "Hereditary". There was great uproar over the fact that she wasn't nominated for her role in "Hereditary", which is definitely like a horror movie. Because of a Satan cult kind of behind it.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And no, I agree with you that definitely in popular culture,I think the -- and like I was saying before, in terms of what is our literature? You're talking about high and low -- graphic novels, like, are definitely kind of becoming studyable. I mean I can do a doctorate on "The Sandman"
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
I mean, like--
Michael Pierry
That's, that's like the number one example I was thinking of actually.
Mike Wheatley
Right. Right. Right. Right.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And definitely so much kind of consideration has been done for the MCU and the DC Universe and those things have become so prominent in our culture. Where do they stand in terms of the A word, the art? And I think part of your question is, what is teachable? What is in school? What are you going to grab your students with?
Michael Pierry
Mmmhmm.
Mike Wheatley
It's like, how do you reach your students, music and art? What are you teaching in the schools? Kind of, it's coming down to what is now becoming-- that is the progression.
Michael Pierry
Yeah, and I think a lot of what, at least for secondary education, and to some degree tertiary, like college, there's this presumption -- or at least, you're trying to teach a lesson in terms of like, you want the art to have a moral compass, you don't want it to be -- I think that's one of the reasons why low art as so called, or popular art in the past was given short shrift maybe, is because it was seen -- there was an association between popular things and just sort of maybe the lack of morals or something like that, just-- or a laxity of morals. And I don't know how true that is, I feel like it's more of a class issue, really: the secret sort of class issue in America that no one really wants to talk about. But I think that was at least the perception is that, well, you can't teach this stuff in school, because it's just a bunch of criminals, or it's gory, or whatever it is. There's no, there's no redeeming social value to it. And I think in most cases, that's just not not really true. There's always something to be gained, otherwise, why are people making it? And why are people consuming it? There's always, there's always that question to be answered, too.
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Alyssa Bussard
Well, yeah, and I mean, you think about some of our longest running franchises. I mean, a "Halloween", "Texas Chainsaw Massacre", not even talking about these classics that we have, like, our Universal monsters that are still very much popular, even again, in going from what we used to have in classic Universal horror to now "Hotel Transylvania" seeing those same characters, but, but--
Mike Wheatley
"The Munsters".
Alyssa Bussard
Exactly, "Addams Family", things like that. But, "Halloween", I mean, in prepping for this podcast episode, I was reading a lot of things. And, of course, one of the things I started reading about was the idea of women in these films, of course, and the idea of the Final Girl, that final girl who kind of is the last to survive, and what that meant, and what it means now, and I was interested in that idea, because we have a lot of books that have come out recently specific to those final girls. Like Riley Sager just came out with a book called "Final Girls". Grady Hendrix came out with a book last year called "The Final Girl Support Group". And it's about these women who have survived, but how it also impacts them, which brings us back to the "Halloween" franchise and brings us back to that it's been spanning since how long? And granted, there have been 12 films and a lot of them were not directly related and all that fun stuff. But you bring in that final girl again, and you bring in that idea of what is it, what do you have to do or be to be the one to survive and and how do you kind of break that mold, in a way? Which I think "Halloween" did with its latest film, and that revenge factor and all that fun stuff. It's not just being able to survive, but it's being able to kind of take back your life and what it means to you. So I think that's really interesting too. That's another reason I think that horror does stick around because not only does it bring in that fight or flight, like we talked about, and that serotonin or whatever it may be, but there are still aspects of strength in these films. And you can see yourself kind of sometimes being like, yeah, like that, what does it mean to survive? And what comes after?
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Alyssa Bussard
What comes next from that? And how do you how do you move forward? So--
Mike Wheatley
Right, that's a really good point, because I think one of the defining aspects of horror films is hope versus hopelessness.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And if you watch a horror film and at the end of it, evil has won, basically it's a setup for the next--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah --
Mike Wheatley
The next installment. It can -- everybody kind of groans. And I think nihilism, like, in film, like, is a real thing that--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And that, you may not always kind of get it, but just kind of gut kind of feel. And so will film become kind of more hopeful, or less hopeful like, as our world, like, it's kind of trying to find its way through this journey.
Alyssa Bussard
Right, right. And that's, yeah, that's what's important about it, too. And I think that brings in, again, what, what works for people and what doesn't work for people. Some don't like ambiguity, and the ending, like they really want that happy ending, or however it may be, I think that's another thing that brings in everybody's -- why there's so many different kinds and why it's so popular, because everybody has something that they're afraid of. And everybody has a different thing that's going to keep them up at night, or maybe they find strength in being like, "No, I would -- I would do this this way", or whatever. So, of course we could talk for hours about this, like about --
Mike Wheatley
Yeah
Michael Pierry
Yeah
Alyssa Bussard
Of course, all of the the new remakes or new whatever you want to call them about serial killers and all this stuff, like the new Dahmer movie just came out. And that is an interesting thing as well, because you just have to understand that these families are still alive of these victims, you know.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Michael Pierry
I was reading about that --
Alyssa Bussard
Oof. Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
And with the internet, there's so many films now that are built around media or-- I mean, it's a little bit old now, but kind of "The Ring" or --
Alyssa Bussard
Right
Mike Wheatley
--which is about VHS tapes--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah, yeah.
Mike Wheatley
But there's also a lot of Internet horror films where people have been affected by the Internet itself.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah. Yeah, we should we should do another episode here because Iwould love to talk about cult films one time and we can't go too long today.
Michael Pierry
We didn't even talk about creepypasta. It's one of your faves right?
Alyssa Bussard
I know, my favorite. You know, my fiance. His favorite movie of all time is "Evil Dead 2".
Michael Pierry
Oh, mine too, although I don't really consider that horror. It's kind of, it's--
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah.
Michael Pierry
It's comedy horror.
Mike Wheatley
Well, "Army of the"... Yeah. Yeah, "Army of Darkness". The final one is definitely--
Michael Pierry
Definitely. That's even more straight up, like--
Mike Wheatley
Screamingly funny.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah. I just watched it for the first time with him and our kids the other day
Michael Pierry
Oh yeah, what'd you think?
Alyssa Bussard
It was. [laughter]
Michael Pierry
You don't want to say?
Alyssa Bussard
No, no, he, he knows. It was funny.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
And it was--
Michael Pierry
It's a trip.
Alyssa Bussard
It was a trip, yeah, that's what I have to say. , I didn't dislike it or anything. It was just like,
Michael Pierry
Was it not what you expected?
Alyssa Bussard
No, no, it was.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
I kept going "what is happening"? Like, "what do you mean?" And , I just love, love, like it's very "Tales of the Crypt".
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Alyssa Bussard
In the way in which, all this --
Michael Pierry
Well, there's stop motion.
Alyssa Bussard
I love--
Mike Wheatley
Right.
Alyssa Bussard
Yes. And yeah, I love that. You know, it was very fun but yeah, to say it was a trip is probably the best thing I can say about it. But , we're gonna have to for sure continue this conversation because cult films I'd love to talk about cult films and yeah, all the creepypasta and we're talking about the Internet. And so I just asked Mike the other day, have you watched? I don't even remember what it was that I asked. But it was a show on Shudder. It's a season -- series actually. And it's made from some of the creepypasta stories or like the Reddit After Dark and things like that. And I love that stuff so I, it's just everything's evolving.
Michael Pierry
If you don't know what creepypasta is, it's just, it's basically just online kind of folk horror stories that are passed around on the internet. It's sort of its own little subgenre online.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah. And it's awesome. And I, they get me. Those stories sometimes get me. Those really get under your skin and-- because they're short, usually.
Mike Wheatley
Mmmhmm.
Michael Pierry
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
And so you're like, whoah--
Michael Pierry
A lot of them are sort of like urban legends.
Alyssa Bussard
Yes, yes. Which I just love.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
So yeah, it's just ever evolving and I think it's pretty awesome that there are just so many ways to consume -- I love podcasts. I love horror podcasts, and things like that. So it's, this is just the best genre.
Mike Wheatley
[Laughter]
Michael Pierry
[Laughter]
Alyssa Bussard
It's never going anywhere. And you can just take it in so many different ways: graphic novels and novels themselves. And I think it's just really saying something. It's just, people have always been enjoying this kind of stuff--
Mike Wheatley
Yup.
Alyssa Bussard
Sitting around a fire, passing along these tales. So I think it's just wonderful.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
That we have so many different ways to consume it.
Michael Pierry
I think the best way to sum up the state of horror today is to say it's alive.
Mike Wheatley
[Laughter]
Alyssa Bussard
[Laughter] It is alive.
Mike Wheatley
It needs a jolt of electricity occasionally, but--
Alyssa Bussard
Yes.
Michael Pierry
Anyway, this was, uh, this was great. This was a lot of fun.
Alyssa Bussard
This was fun for me.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
Thank you.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah.
Alyssa Bussard
And thanks to our listeners for indulging and letting us do this.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah, and letting us carry on.
Alyssa Bussard
For our Halloween-- or our holiday movies, we should come back in December.
Mike Wheatley
Yeah. [Laughter]
Alyssa Bussard
Because I really want to talk to you, Mike about if you think that "Nightmare Before Christmas" is Halloween or Christmas? I don't know. We have to figure that out.
Mike Wheatley
I know, I know, I know.
Alyssa Bussard
I think we should talk. Yeah, this was this was great. I appreciate you both indulging me in this fun.
Michael Pierry
All right. All right. Thank you, Mike. And thank you, Alyssa.
Alyssa Bussard
Yeah, of course. Thank you.
Mike Wheatley
Thank you, Alyssa. Thank you, Mike.
Michael Pierry
Bye.
Mike Wheatley
Bye.
Michael Pierry
Well, that's all folks. Have a fun and safe Halloween. Next month, we'll be highlighting nonprofits in Hamden, giving thanks to those who help others in need. Look for it on the first Monday of November. Thanks for listening.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai