Banned Books Week

Banned Books Week was established by the American Library Association in 1982 to reaffirm the freedom to read and to highlight the harms of censorship, and is usually held in the last week of September. 

On this episode, Ryan talks to Sam Lee, co-chair of the Connecticut Library Association’s Intellectual Freedom Committee, about censorship, the First Amendment and the history and current state of book challenges. 

After that, Hamden Library Board of Trustees member Amber Woodward and I discuss her background, balancing community benefit with individual rights and her role in helping the library ensure all users benefit from the ALA's Bill of Rights, among other topics. 

Transcript

Michael Pierry: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Hamden Library Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Pierry, and this week is Banned Books Week. Banned Books Week was established by the American Library Association in 1982 to reaffirm the freedom to read and to highlight the harms of censorship. On this episode, Ryan talks to Sam Lee, co-chair of the Connecticut Library Association's Intellectual Freedom Committee, about censorship, the First Amendment, and the history and current state of book challenges. 

After that, Hamden Library Board of Trustees member Amber Woodward and I discuss her background, balancing community benefit with individual rights, and her role in helping the library ensure all users benefit from the ALA's Bill of Rights, among other topics. Now, let's listen to Ryan and Sam Lee. 

Ryan Keeler: Welcome to the Hamden Library Podcast. I'm Ryan, a librarian here in Hamden, and joining me today is Sam Lee, a librarian and the co-chair of the Intellectual Freedom Committee for the Connecticut Library Association. Hi, Sam, how are you?  

Sam Lee: Hey, I'm doing good. How about you, Ryan?  

Ryan Keeler:I'm great. And we're doing this special episode because Banned Books Week is coming up and we wanted to have a conversation about that and give some information some history, context, current events, all kinds of stuff that people might want to know because I'm sure they hear about book challenges, book banning on the news or wherever they read their news. 

So I'm going to start out just by going through some of the history. So I'm going to start with the anti-vice activist and postal inspector, Anthony Comstock.  

Sam Lee: Yep.  

Ryan Keeler: Right, so you know about him, and he used his position in the postal service to pass a law called the Comstock Act, which banned the mailing, which at the time everything went through the Postal Service, so - mailing of pornographic materials, and "obscenity" was one of the words in that act, and it was left undefined, and his definition of pornographic led to bans of anatomy textbooks, all kinds of reproduction, birth control  pamphlets, health education, anything by Oscar Wilde, and even The Canterbury Tales. So, in 1933, a federal ban of James Joyce's Ulysses is overturned, and some idea of First Amendment protections are kind of applied to books.  

Sam Lee: I mentioned before when we were off screen about my funny story about James Joyce's Ulysses. So my favorite part about this is that when Ulysses was first released in the U. S., it was released in serial format. Chapters of the book were released in magazines. And so one of these chapters is a very explicit scene that made it into a magazine that got in the hands of some children and, and of course, parents were quite upset about this, which led to it being banned. 

And the thing is, Random House had the rights to it for the US release. And they're thinking, "Oh, crap, this book is so popular in the UK. We want to sell it in the US. It's a larger market. We have the rights to it. We would like to sell this.” And so what they did is just like, I don't know, publicity-stunt-slash-like... anyway, so Random House decides, okay, well, we're going to ship full copies of Ulysses, completed bound copies of Ulysses, to the US. It's going to get seized at the ports, and we're going to then sue to get rid of this ban. And it makes it past the ports and then to Random House in New York. 

And their publisher is like, "No, no, no, you were supposed to catch this, and we were supposed to sue to let us release it.” So he goes back to the ports and says, “Yeah, you needed to seize this. This is illegal. This is banned." 

And once they seized it, they were able to go in and sue and say, "Hey, we actually want this book." And it kickstarted the conversation about First Amendment protections for works of literature, which I think is exceedingly funny. 

The judge on that case, John Woolsey, actually was one of the first judges to take a piece of work in its entirety, and then judge that for obscenity, instead of taking bits and pieces out of context like the magazine and the serial releases did. Way to go, Random House. They had the best-laid plans.  

Ryan Keeler:That's a good segue into the First Amendment, which we definitely want to talk about. So I'll let you chat a bit about that.  

Sam Lee:Yeah, so the great thing about the First Amendment is, it's the freedom of speech. And the corollary to the freedom of making speech and having speech is also the freedom to receive speech. 

And before the internet, before this information age, the way to receive speech was through the printed word, which is through books or newspapers. And most people, if they didn't have a huge disposable income, would of course go to libraries and receive that speech.  

So, It's a twofold thing. Your freedom of speech means you can make speech. It also means that you can receive speech, and we're going to need to be very clear about this. The freedom of speech means to protect individuals and society from government attempts to suppress ideas and information. It forbids government censorship.  

In this context, free speech doesn't mean that you're free from the responsibility of speech. So if somebody were to say something with their speech that was patently offensive and then they had to deal with the consequences of that speech, either losing business deals, being publicly ostracized, that is not censorship. That is the consequences of free speech. Rights are not without responsibilities, and the responsibility is to use our speech responsibly. 

Ryan Keeler: One of the other things that we had come across in researching this is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which I think is a great little addition to the conversation. It's not something that is necessarily on the level of our First Amendment rights. It's more of an idea that people support, but “everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression. This right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.” 

Sam Lee: I love that it's a universal declaration of human rights, that it applies to everybody. That everybody should have this right to explore ideas, to find ideas, and not to have their access to different and new ideas hindered, and that it is universal in its nature. 

Ryan Keeler: Absolutely. So why don't we dive right into contemporary book challenges and discuss the most recent report from the American Library Association on banned books.  

Sam Lee:So book challenges have skyrocketed in the last four years or so. The ALA 2024 report says that book challenges increased 92% from 2022 to 2023. Before 2020, I think the number of book challenges that, um, the American Library Association had tracked was 223, versus 4,240. That is a significant jump. 

Ryan Keeler:That's like 2,000 percent.  

Sam Lee:Yeah, it's a big number. How do we go to that? So it's been a challenge to address these book bans and challenges and censorship attempts. So what we've seen this recent wave of challenges is that they're targeting LGBTQIA, BIPOC authors and voices and stories and other historically marginalized communities. Titles representing the queer community and the BIPOC community made up 47 percent of the targeted censorship attacks. 

And then of the top 10 most challenged books last year, 7 of them had LGBTQIA content. And that's nationally. But Connecticut has this distinction of being one of 17 states that had more than 100 titles challenged last year in 2023. So in total, in Connecticut, there were 113 different titles challenged in Connecticut, with 17 attempts to restrict access to it. 

For a state the size of Connecticut, that is a significant number, and it is deeply upsetting that there are so many attempts to curb access to free speech in our libraries and schools.  

Ryan Keeler: Yeah, and just to add context and comment on the politicization of book challenging, campaigns have been organized against these particular materials, and they're almost always challenged with the reason of being sexually explicit, or LGBTQ+ content, and the titles representing the voices and lived experiences of those people are frequently targeted for censorship. 

Groups and individuals demanding the censorship often target multiple titles, which could be dozens or hundreds at a time, which is what is driving this ridiculously high number. 

Sam Lee:Yeah, so it really stinks because the titles that are being targeted have been award-winning titles, have been stories that had not been included in our classical canon. So now these stories that are just making it into the mainstream consciousness are being challenged, are having a smear campaign made against them, where these groups will say, “Oh, well, it's Inappropriate, or it's explicit,” without actually having read the books or taking the book as a whole per the Miller test. 

And what it does, it manufactures outrage and it inserts this insinuation of wrongdoing for these books or wrongdoing on a librarian's part for buying these books, when there is nothing wrong about these books or what librarians are doing in ordering these books that serve the community.  

A lot of these titles have been exceedingly popular. A lot of these titles have made national award-winning lists, but as soon as these challenges roll in or come into a community, this air of distrust for the book and librarians manifest, and it ends up being really damaging for the community.  

One example of that is the Patmos Library in Jamestown, Michigan. They were defunded in 2022 when there was this campaign on book challenges going through the community, and people were upset that there were LGBT titles in the collection, and I think at the time it made up less than one percent of the collection, the LGBT titles, and that was enough to get people upset about it. 

So when an increase to the mill rate to fund the library came up, people were fixated on the LGBT titles and decided, "oh, well, let’s spite the library." And so they did not pass the mill rate. It went to referendum quite a few times and eventually they had to do a fundraising campaign to stay open. 

What ended up happening was that this disinformation campaign about the library's collection, about the books in the library, was effective in defunding the library and the library ended up being closed for very limited hours, and a lot of the staff turned over. They lost two directors and staff that had served that community, leaving a gap in knowledge and expertise and then leaving a gap for the community to access library services.  

This was a fairly small community too, so that loss was really upsetting and disruptive to the community. But it worked, right? And that's the scary thing is that this disinformation campaign about LGBTQIA titles was effective enough to defund the library and essentially infringe upon a community's freedom to access free speech. 

Ryan Keeler:Yeah, and that's a national example. And I know that you have some stories from Connecticut that are close to home, just so people understand that this isn't something happening in faraway places. Would you talk about some of the examples that maybe that you've dealt with through the CLA? 

Sam Lee:Yeah, so one great example is Guilford. This was recent. This was a challenge in the last year, 2023. So what happened? Guilford Public Schools, they dealt with a series of book challenge to five titles and they were Flamer, Lawn Boy, It's Perfectly Normal, Me and Earl and the Dying Girl, and The Bluest Eye. 

So, what was really upsetting was that these were all titles that were available in their school library. And what we have to remember in this case is that students, minor students, absolutely have First Amendment rights. They have First Amendment rights at school, and those need to be respected and constitutionally protected. That is their right.  

So, the cool thing about school libraries is that they're completely separate from curriculum materials. So a school library is this really cool designation that they call “places of voluntary inquiry.” So curriculum doesn't get to decide what's in a school library, students’ interests dictate that, and librarians purchase to cater to students’ interest and voluntary inquiry. 

So these titles were challenged in Guilford. It was at the tail end of the 2022 2023 school year. So by the time all the paperwork was filled out to challenge the books, it was already June. And so the superintendent went to the school board and said, “We have these challenges. There are five titles. Here's our policy and procedure, which is: we have to read these books, all five of them, in their entirety, and then when we reconvene in the new school year, we will decide on these books, per our policies and procedures, whether or not they're appropriate for our collection.”  

And what happened there, which I think was a very lucky, fortuitous move, was that it got the community to take the summer to read all of these books. So, copies were flying off the shelves in the library. There was a local bookstore who was hosting community conversations about it. And a lot of people got really involved and activated in reading these books, discussing the merits of it, discussing students’ First Amendment rights in their school libraries, and why these books are necessary for the collection, and even if they make certain parents uncomfortable, why they're necessary for other people.  

And so they reconvened in September of 2023 and they had a big meeting with the school board and each member voted to keep all of the books. It was a unanimous decision across all five titles that each of these books would remain available in the school libraries. And that was really wonderful. that given the opportunity to have a thought out conversation to talk about the values of the community and the school, they decided, “Yeah, this is something we absolutely do value for our students and we want these books available. And if it's not for them, that's fine, but nobody is forcing them to read it from their school library.” 

Ryan Keeler:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the books that I have behind me, several of them, you know, you had mentioned and these books are available for the reasons that you stated. It might not be for everybody, but it's an option for those who choose to read it. And we obviously support parental rights to choose what their children take out, but we don't make that decision for their children. That's for them to decide.  

So you, I believe, had one in Westport.  

Sam Lee: Yes. Westport was really interesting. I was less involved in this one, but the story was really, really interesting. We celebrate Banned Books Week. That's why we're doing this podcast and we're doing this episode. So Banned Books Week is a celebration going on, what, 42 years now? We're coming into its 42nd year. It's a thing libraries do. We celebrate the freedom to read for a week in September every year.  

So last year, Staples High School in Westport decided to do the same thing. They had a display of titles that were often banned. And a parent saw some of the titles and did decide, “Oh, those titles are inappropriate. Why are they in the library? Why is there a display celebrating these books in the library?” And it was really stunning to me that given that the students were in high school, that we have given them all these years of education, developed critical thinking skills, that even in spite of preparing these students with these critical thinking skills, with discernment, with the ability to look at sources and judge them on the whole, a parent still came in, saw these titles, made a snap judgment thinking that they were inappropriate, and challenged them. 

Luckily, all the books were eventually retained in the collection, and a long conversation was had in that community about, again, what's appropriate for students, and why these books are there, and banned books as a display isn't a encouragement to ban books, to then decide, “hey, yeah, that one definitely should be banned,” as much as to consider what your freedom of speech entails, to consider how wonderful it is to celebrate that freedom of speech by reading a book that will offend you. 

And I think that was really interesting that, given a moment to let students see these books and think for themselves critically, that parents were so concerned and upset that they eliminated that possibility for them.  

Ryan Keeler: Yeah, and I'm sure most libraries will probably have a banned books display during Banned Books Week just like we have different displays all throughout the year recognizing different events, different holidays, different celebrations. 

It's just one of those things that all libraries try to do to have some engagement with the patrons and if there's something you like there, great. If not you know, there's more than one display in the library. But I wanted to get into just a couple of the statements and kind of talk about how this works from our perspective. 

So we have collection development policies. We assess our collections on a regular basis on, you know, if things aren't perfect. circulating or items are no longer relevant. We do monitor our collection and there's a turnover rate to bring in new books and move out less relevant materials. 

We have a collection development policy that we will link into this podcast. There's also some very important things from the American Library Association: the Bill of Rights, freedom to read, freedom to view, free access to libraries for minors. So we'll link all those in, so if people are interested in learning a little more and reading about these things, they'll have those resources. 

And the last thing I wanted to mention before I turn it back over to you is, we have a democratized method to handle book challenges. So if people feel that something is worthy of being challenged, we have what's called a request for reconsideration form. You can come into the library and ask for that and fill it out and hand it in. And we have a whole process to go through to handle things like that. It's all transparent stuff. And one of the things that we also have that I think is more important than requests for reconsideration is we have a purchase suggestion form. 

Sam Lee: Yes. 

Ryan Keeler: So if you feel like you aren't represented in the library's collection or there's something that you think that the library should have, we love getting those recommendations from people and seeing if we can add some more items to our collection that further represent the community. But that being said, I want to pass it over to you for a call to action. What can people do?  

Sam Lee:Yeah, we are in an election year. That is a pretty big election year, but local politics is exceedingly important. So I'm encouraging people to absolutely vote. 

We are a participatory democracy. Every vote matters, so make sure you're voting in your local elections. Make sure you're voting in the national elections. Make sure you're registered to vote because rolls do get cleared out. If you're not, re-register. And then make a plan to vote. There is some early voting in Connecticut. So, make a plan. You have a week or so before Election Day to vote, so use that time if you're not going to be able to make it to the polls on Election Day.  

And while Connecticut is in a great position to defend a lot of these books, because we have exceedingly knowledgeable librarians and library directors and library boards who are aware of the due process of the reconsideration policy and procedure, that's not the case everywhere else. So if this is an issue that you're really concerned about, I absolutely think that EveryLibrary is the place to get more information, to sign up for their email alerts, to donate to. They do everything they can to defend and support libraries against book bans, political interference, and closure. They do a lot of wonderful work to, uh, help and support libraries. And then if there is a book ban or a challenge in your community, get ready to testify and make a statement about it. The best place to go for tips on how to do that is PEN America. They have tip sheets on how to speak in public how to make a public statement and then also who you should talk to and get organized. 

So voting is absolutely my big call to action. And it's another way to celebrate our democracy, and it's certainly another way to celebrate our freedom of speech.  

Ryan Keeler: And just to add on to more library services, you can come into the library, and a librarian will assist you in figuring out how you can register to vote, either online or we have the forms in the library as well, so use your libraries, come and visit us and we can help you get registered to vote. Alright, well, Sam, thank you so much for doing this. This has been great. I'm glad that we had a chance to sit down and chat for a while.  

Sam Lee:Yeah, it was fun. I hope you had fun chatting with me.  

Ryan Keeler: I did. Absolutely. And I hope everyone watching enjoys it as well. All right. Take care.  

Sam Lee:You too.  

Michael Pierry: Today on the podcast, we have Amber Woodward. She is a social worker and music therapist. And she's one of our own Hamden Library trustees. Welcome, Amber.  

Amber Woodward: Thanks for having me.  

Michael Pierry: Absolutely. So tell me, if you can, a little bit about your background and what motivated you to become a library trustee. 

Amber Woodward: Absolutely. So, as you said, I am a social worker and I'm also a music therapist. I work mainly, predominantly with individuals and do groups out in the community. And so, when I moved to Connecticut after living in Texas my whole entire life, I was looking for something to help integrate me into the community that's also an interest that I have, because I definitely wanted to be part of the community.  

So I saw that the library board was needing volunteers, participants, what have you, and that one of the positions was actually in my district, which is District Three. And so I applied because I love reading. I love libraries. They are a safe place not only to me, but also to a bunch of people to have space where it's quiet, they're surrounded by a bunch of books, there's other activities going on. And the infrastructure of a library very much aligns with what I do for a living, being a social worker, being a therapist with creating that sense of community. And also that safe space for individuals. It's definitely social work in that sense. 

So, yeah, I thought that it would be a good fit. And so far, so good. I'm really enjoying my time being on the library board and being involved in the community of Hamden in that capacity.  

Michael Pierry:As we said, since it is Banned Books Week, I wanted to ask if, in your own life, has your access to information or resources ever been restricted by anyone, either an institution or a person or anything like that? 

Amber Woodward: I would say yes. As a music therapist, we're going into sites, whether that's hospitals or schools or even juvenile detention facilities or psychiatric facilities, that sort of thing. And with us going into those spaces, sometimes information and resources are restricted for the “betterment” of the people that we are providing services to. 

I remember I was at a practicum site for music therapy and we had a lot of restrictions there as far as what type of music we can play, what instruments we can provide. And also what was interesting about that site is that they had a library and I could tell just by perusing briefly a couple of times that I was there that it was very much so a very curated collection, and that was concerning because to me when I think of access to information and resources, and when we're talking about books, or we're talking about music, or any type of creative media, when we censor that, we're kind of censoring somebody's lived experience, or an experience that they're at least passionate about, if they haven't lived it, and that, in a sense, decreases the potential of being able to foster connections with others. 

And so I always kind of reflect on that experience in itself of working at the juvenile facility doing practicum there about, “how is this benefiting a client or a person not having access to that resource or that resource being deemed as bad or not clean?” like those types of things, because we end up putting a label and then we end up developing this sort of hierarchy of what's good, what's bad, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. And then it becomes really subjective. 

Michael Pierry:Yeah, those are all really good points. So, as a trustee, what's your role in helping the library ensure that all users benefit from the ALA's Bill of Rights?  

Amber Woodward: I think part of being a trustee is just knowing what's happening in the library. Even if somebody puts in a kind of formal complaint about where something is displayed, us just kind of being in the know, being informed, doing our due diligence as far as asking Melissa, the library director, questions if we feel like it is necessary. Also, commending her and her ways of handling those hard topics and touchy situations, right? Because as a parent, everybody's different when it comes to their parenting and what and when and how they expose their children to certain things. And we understand that. 

But again, it just goes back to that sense of access to information and resources. Books are expensive and, for most people, they read a book once, and then it winds up very dirty and dusty on their bookshelf. What's popular now is doing book swaps, which I highly recommend if you are a purchaser of books. Since I moved to Connecticut, I've never seen so many little free libraries in my life. I didn't even know that was a thing because we simply just don't have them in - and if we do, I don't know where they're at. But I mean, even down the street from where I live, there's a little free library. 

And so again, going with the privilege of, I can go to insert whatever bookstore in Connecticut, buy a book, read it, and it's not going to break the bank, so to speak, but a lot of people don't have that privilege.  

And so, again, when we're talking about people's rights, people have a right to information, especially information that is impacting them, and people have a right to connect with other people with that information. And I think that's kind of where the challenge is, is that people have various views on what information they think should be available. And I feel like us at the library board, we really do have to make sure, like, regardless of people's individual preferences, right? That doesn't necessarily mean, like, your individual preference may not be for everybody.  

Michael Pierry:Yeah, again, it's really about community standards. The library is here to benefit everyone in the community, and everyone has the right to read about themselves, basically, and people like themselves. And it's not fair to take that away from somebody. I would rather somebody say, “Hey, there's no books here that represent my beliefs,” and give me some suggestions for me to buy. And I'll be like, “Great, thank you. Thank you for letting me know.” Although it's fine if you need to give a request for reconsideration form. You know, we do have that process and we'll take that into consideration, but again, it's about the community and how we can best serve it. 

So, yeah, I was going to ask how you balance that. How do you balance that community benefit with individual rights? I know what I think from my perspective. I'm curious about yours. 

Amber Woodward: Yeah, I think it's just informing people of what their rights are, right? If you don't like a book that's on display, there's a process for you to fill out paperwork and have the library reconsider where this book is positioned and whatnot. But the reality of the situation is that I think a lot of people have this notion that if I yell the loudest and cause like the biggest uproar, then I will be heard. 

And that's true to a certain point, but that's the reason why we have policies and procedures in place, right? Because yeah, you can yell and be loud and stuff like that, but where is the action and what happens after you yell and somebody does listen to you? You have to sit down and have a conversation and a dialogue with another person. 

And so I think that's how we do a good job at the library and balancing that. It's like, yes, we want you to share your concerns, because if you don't show your concerns, the library or whatever organizations or institutions don't know how to compromise, collaborate, fix the problem if there is a problem, that sort of thing. 

But for the most part, a lot of things, to get resolved, have to start with a dialogue. Yelling at somebody is not a good way to start a dialogue. A lot of the reason why these books are being challenged is because - let's just address that elephant in the room. 

Kids are being thrown as the collateral to the reason why, “I don't want my kid to have access to this. My kid doesn't need to know about this type of experience, this person’s culture, this person's identity, way of life,” etc, etc, etc. Why? Because then you have to explain as a parent. I think of Heartstopper, right? Award-winning graphic novel webtoon series, Heartstopper, where depending on what volume you're reading, you have two guys on a cover, and they are, they're still in the development of their friendship, their relationship to, and another volume, the cover is two teenage boys holding hands. Your kid is in the library, they see the cover to Heartstopper, they may not know anything about the LGBTQ plus community. They may ask a question. What's the problem in that? What's the problem in your kid asking a question about what they're seeing on a cover?  

And again, it goes back to having a dialogue. Now, you as a parent has to decide what you're going to tell them, how you're going to tell them, what values and beliefs you have about what you're seeing on the cover. But there's no problem with a kid asking a question about what they're seeing or what they're reading. Because again, we're sharing somebody else's experience.  

And the reality of the situation is, you and I are having a dialogue, but we don't look the same. We have different experiences, different lived experiences, and that's okay. And when we raise our fist and yell and say, “No, this book doesn't need to be here,” or “Nobody needs to have access to this book,” you're pretty much saying that this person who's sharing their experiences, whether fictional or nonfiction, doesn't have a voice, shouldn't be here, shouldn't exist.  

And that to me is what's really troubling about like the banned book situation. It starts with the dialogue. Yes, you can yell. Yes, I can go, “I hear you.” But I'm also going to say, “Let's talk about it. What are your concerns here?” And I think a lot of people want their kids to be safe and protected and whatnot, and like I said, we're all on our different wavelengths when it comes to when we tell kids information about certain things or explain things and whatnot, and how we explain things to kids. But again, that's personal. That's individualized. And just because you don't want your kid looking at a cover of Heartstopper and asking you questions doesn't necessarily mean that I want the same thing for my kid. 

And I think it's just people getting comfortable talking about certain topics. People are uncomfortable talking about sex and sexual identity, orientation, race, disability, because we're talking about marginalized groups. We're talking about a group of people who, for lack of a better word, that even though they're supposed to have the same rights as everybody else, sometimes they are treated like they don't have the same rights as everybody else. And that makes people really uncomfortable, and to see that on a bookshelf reminds them of that uncomfortability. But I would want to challenge people to lean into the discomfort, explore your privilege, because that will just make society better, because we're not seeing enough of that. 

Michael Pierry: Discomfort is just part of life. It's not always a comfortable ride, and for those of us with more privilege, maybe it's a little too cushy sometimes and you forget that discomfort is part of the ride as well. But yeah, your points are well taken. Last question I was going to ask, you've basically already answered, but as a parent, how do you balance your family values with community benefit? 

Amber Woodward:That's a good question. So, before I had my kid, my husband and I had always talked about, “What are the principles that we want to have in this household, the pillars of our family values?” And it's respecting your property, respecting other people's property, respecting your autonomy, respecting other people's autonomy. We have always been those two things - other people's property, property autonomy - those are the two foundations that build this household that we are in.  

With that being said, there is a understanding that as our kid gets older, it is very important as a parent to establish that what happens in this household may not be the same as what happens in other people's households. So, if my kid has access to certain information, whatever, there is an understanding that that may not be the case if he goes over to somebody's, house, has a sleepover, has a play date, whatever. And we have to respect that. Just like, in an ideal world, I would like other people to do the same. 

So I think it's just really just those two principles, that's how we kind of balance things. Our son is very young, he is getting into books, he has books here, but one of the things that I'm noticing because he has like baby limbs is that certain books - if we're going to the library, we're checking out a board book, he doesn't have the control to not take a page, like a loose leaf page and not rip it. And it's not like he's intentionally trying to rip it. He's just very forceful and he's trying to figure out his motor skills. But I know that as a parent, so we're not going to be checking out like a little thin with nice little pages and stuff like that. Respect for other people's property.  

Just like if we go to somebody's house for a play date, having a discussion: “How does stuff in your house go down? How do you feel about screens? Are you okay with your kid watching this TV show?” It's collaborative, it's cooperation, but it has to start with a conversation, and I'm always down to have a conversation because how I raise my kid is not the same way that other people raise their kids, and that's perfectly fine. Being a parent is already hard enough. I'm not trying to be the parent that's just like, “Well, actually it's this.” Whatever works for you and your lifestyle works for you and your lifestyle. But when you and your lifestyle start encroaching, if we can't have a dialogue and come to some sort of consensus, and I feel like the autonomy/property thing is being violated, then I'm going to say something, and then I'm going to probably, if you can't come to a consensus after I say something, then I'm going to remove myself from the situation and that's okay. It's okay to speak up when something makes you uncomfortable. It's okay to speak up when you don't agree with something. So yeah, that's kind of what my two cents are about how I balance these things.  

Michael Pierry: This has been a really good talk. Thank you so much for agreeing to this. I'm really happy with the way this turned out. Thank you.  

Amber Woodward: You're welcome. I appreciate us having this conversation. It was really good.  

Michael Pierry:That's all we have for you this month. Don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. It really helps. If you're listening on our website, you can also send us a text message from your phone. Just tap more info and then send a text message. We'd love to hear from you.