Coach Conversations Podcast

Nicole Karagiannis - using parental leave to explore coach training options and navigate ICF ACC credentialling, building an internal coaching capability, preparing effectively for coaching sessions and how to quickly fill up your cup.

• Brendon Le Lievre • Episode 15

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Nicole Karagiannis joins Brendon Le Lievre to discuss using parental leave to explore coach training options and navigate ICF ACC credentialling, building an internal coaching capability, preparing effectively for coaching sessions and how to quickly fill up your cup.

About Nicole

Nicole Karagiannis is the Head of People & Culture at Harrison.ai, a Sydney-based clinician led healthcare artificial intelligence company.

Nicole is an ICF ACC credentialled coach and has completed training with the Institute of Executive Coaching and Leadership. Nicole coaches internally and externally to Harrison.ai and you can connect with Nicole through LinkedIN here -https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-karagiannis/

Brendon Le Lievre:

Hello and welcome to the coach conversations podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things coaching. I'm Brendon Le Lievre and today I'm joined by Nicole Karagiannis. How did you find coaching Nicole or as is often the case, how did it find you?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Hey, Brendon. I, I found coaching, uh, after having my first child, I was on parental leave after having Sophia in 2017. Wondering about the meaning of life and what am I, what is my legacy going to be? What am I doing? Am I happy with, with being in People and Culture? What was my next thing? What, you know, what's my passion? So one day I was on the train heading, headed to work and started researching, um, the Institute of Exec Coaching. Uh, it's now called the Institute of Exec Coaching and Leadership because I had heard of them seven or eight years prior. Uh, through working at Westpac and I thought, I, I must check them out, maybe coaching is my thing. Uh, long story short that's about four years ago now I completed my accreditation with IECL. So that's levels one, two, and three. It was face to face at the time pre all of this was pre pandemic. Um, and then moved on to, uh, actually completed another course with IECL the Principles of Organizational Coaching and moved on to my, through that that was actually a good pathway to a master's degree, but that's another story for another day. Uh, and here I am coaching, um, internally and externally and loving, loving it. Uh, I also became a ACC accredited, so associate coach with the International Coaching Federation working my way through that next level of accreditation.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah, up to PCC.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yes,

Brendon Le Lievre:

That's a, I mean, that's a, there's a lot to, to chat about in there as well. let's start with accreditation, we finished there, let's start there. So I, what was it like to achieve ACC status for you? Because I've achieved it and it, it was, for me, it felt more like it was something I did for the marketplace. Whereas, PCC when I got there was very much, I was like, oh, that's for, that's more for me. I feel like that's a milestone in my coaching career. So, and, and it felt like it took forever to get to a hundred hours of coaching.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

So how, what was the process like for you to, to navigate into the ACC level?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Um, I started looking into it when I was on funnily enough, parental leave again. Uh, so this time it was with my second, uh, second time being on parental leave having, uh, had my second daughter, Georgia. And, uh, I thought, you know, I have some time on my hands. I need to start collating my evidence, uh, and validating, you know, collecting my hours and validating that and, uh, making sure I had completed all my, uh, work for, IECL that all obviously is recognized by ICF. And of course the big one. I don't know if you recall, but there was an exam to sit. Uh, it's an online, um, open book largely, but, uh, I took that pretty seriously and was studying nonstop. I wanted to make sure that I was, uh, mentally in the right place, had mum over watching the baby. Uh, so it was pretty big deal for me that exam. And I remember the biggest takeaway from this was how important the code of ethics, um, uh, is, and the importance of, um, having that, you know, that confidential relationship with the counterpart, uh, and also the importance of contracting. I remember these things, I mean, we we'd learned about them through IECL of course they're not new, but the way ICF packages, all of these was just really powerful. And so even to today, I'm like, I've signed a code of ethics. You can talk to me. And so it's nice to be able to kind of have that in the background as that, that, you know, scientific or that evidence, um, based, or that, that, you know, black and white piece that you say. Uh, you can fall back on so to speak. Uh, yes I did that did that exam, uh, passed thankfully, and then you get this little pin in the mail that says, you know, you're ACC and that was a pretty, uh, pretty cool achievement. So I, for me, I did, I did that for both from a, you know, from a branding and, uh, resume point of view, but also as my personal challenge, um, you know, measuring, measuring that, uh, journey kind of putting, putting a start and an end to it from a, uh, you know, from that journey when I was on my uh, first part of parental leave second time on parental leave thinking I've also achieved this thing. Um, and that's, that's awesome. I've got some plans for what what's to come next, but, uh, yeah, that was a nice sort of chapter one.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah, I mean, very productive use of, of your parental leave there and it is nice to have that recognition. Um, and every time I see a, you know, I hesitate to use the word experienced, but someone who has more coaching hours than me, uh, usually, you know, they're master coach in particular. It seems like they do nothing but contract like everything, every second question is a contracting question, and I'm like, But they achieve, obviously they achieve wonderful things and, and it's something for me to be mindful of is the contract is not just that, you know, upfront piece of paper, show up on time, let me know if you're gonna be late or need to reschedule, and this is how we're gonna work together, but it, it should be happening throughout, you know, all the sessions. And I remember there, I saw a demo done. And the coach asked the question, the client had this big insight and, and the coach asked the question "now that you've had that insight, what do we talk about next?" Rather than just moving on to the next thing? And I went up after the session, I said, oh, that was such a great question and they almost went, oh, I don't even remember what the question was, but that was years ago. And it stuck with me. So

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

few tips in there for newer coaches as well on like, just start your log straight away.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yep. absolutely

Brendon Le Lievre:

Get it running, um, cause the first 10 hours will, you know, feel like forever and then it's like, oh, I'm at 40 or 50 or what have you and, and it sort of gets rolling from there. Um, so I'm pleased that you managed to pull all that together and, and get that done. That's awesome.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Thanks you when you do you're right. When you do get that log happening, you think well, and firstly collating it retrospectively in my case, causeI had been sort of logging those hours knowing I was on my way to ACC um, sort of through my work calendar and, and external calendar, but putting it onto the log template, you sort of sit back and went, wow. That is a really nice visual reminder of, um, all the people I've helped. All the discussions I've had and it's, it's really profound. Yeah, that was good.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Awesome. I like that. And then we, you know, the, the second part was around the training with the IECL we've done similar. I'm probably not as far through the, the potential masters that you are working on. I've got the Grad Diploma from CSU. Is that?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah. Yeah I, I finished the masters in 2021.

Brendon Le Lievre:

What did the, you know, postgraduate theory study the principles of coaching, which is very theory based as well and the more practical coaching skills training do for your coaching?

Nicole Karagiannis:

They did so much I'll start with the theory side, that was pretty powerful. Principles of organizational coaching. Um, I was a bit smug at the time I went, oh, I need to do this subject. So it can be a, you know, recognized, uh, unit for, you know, my future plans around my master's degree. I'm pretty sure I know a few things about theory now. Yeah, right. Hadn't even scratched the surface as they say. So, um, that was an amazing subject. Awesome. And I still have the book actually. I brought it into the office. Um, uh, and I'm gonna leave it here for some of the, some of the guys in my team, uh, which is the, uh, the handbook, the Complete Handbook of Coaching. It's amazing in terms of the number of coaching theories, it's sort of the one stop shop lots of theories. Uh, my favorites in there would be, uh, narrative coaching, um, and I love, and I'm still working on improving my ontological coaching and getting the theory around that, which is the study of the, the being and moods you know, helping coaching through thoughts, moods, emotions, language, absolutely find that fascinating. So that's the theory part to the, to that question, but in terms of the skills and the practice, um, what these various units and what studying with IECL did is absolutely. And there's lots of role modeling and, um, uh, practicing and, and, uh, observing others and as you would recall, Brendon, and that was all such a amazing way to, to really hone your skills. Coaching is one of those things where it's so easy to sit there and go, I know what to do. I know how to do it. Couple of questions, surely it can't be that hard. And then you get in there and you just think, wow, this is, there is so much more, and this is much more nuanced, uh, than I thought it would be. Um, but at the same time you just have to dive in. That would be my biggest thing. Just dive in, don't overthink it. Uh, don't overanalyze your questions and create that respectful space for the counterpart to fill that, that, that space really not. It's not yours. It's theirs. so the practice, really helped my, um, Uh, skills in terms of being able to ask a question and listen for the unheard. That's my favorite part, listening meaningfully and listening deep deeply, and I do a fair bit of mindfulness and, and really focus on my presence and being able to listen and be, be present in the moment for that counterpart. It's a, I mean, it's a continuous journey. I'm sure I can, I can do many more years of, of, uh, honing that skill, but listening for that unheard. And then contracting to say, I you're saying this, I'm hearing that, do you mind if we explore? uh, and go, go to that next, next place, generally people say yes. Um, and if they say no, then you've got obviously to unpack that.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah. Yeah, the that's the. An area that I continue to think I need to do that more, is around what's not said, so that's a good call around looking for that good intent for the next session that I do around looking for that. What's not said cause often there's good value in there. And you know, I agree with you. It's like, yeah, I know enough about a fair bit about coaching and then you get into the theory of it and it's like, yeah, I don't know all that much about coaching, but. How do I bring this in? Because there was times I don't know about you, particularly in the, the university component where I was looking at I'm like, why are we studying this? Like, why is the, what's the connection here? How is this relevant? And then I'll be mentioning it, you know, sort of talking through something with someone, um, outside of coaching and the, it all got, the connection will get made and I'm like, ah, that's why we focused on that. So, you know, if you understand the theory the practical gets better.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

What's it like coaching internally from your perspective?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Great question. I absolutely. Firstly, I love it. So I'm um, a chief people and culture officer at Harrison AI, uh, which is a scale up, um, organization in the health, health tech healthcare, uh, working on AI as, as the name suggests AI solutions for medical device. Amazing, amazing place, amazing leaders, amazing people. Um, Balancing that with being an internal coach and coaching internally, even if it's a coaching moment and this is what I, something, a practice I've introduced, um, in this organization as well, there's sort of three types of, um, coaching that someone would reach out and ask for. Uh, and that's completely separate from mentoring from advisory, from any other hat that I wear in the organization, by the way. Um, it could be a coaching moment. So it's 15 minutes, rapid fire or half an hour or whatever it is. Coach me through this query, coach me through this challenge. Um, or it could be a contracted, you know, can I have six coaching sessions over this, um, amount of time for a particular, uh, skill that I want to unlock or potential that I want to tap into or, or, or something I need to improve, uh, or it could be, uh, a much longer term. And for various topics as well, we have, um, introduced a leadership program that is based on executive coaching in the organization. So I often do internal coaching in that context, which is to embed the learning from the leadership program. I have to say, that's a huge part of what I love about coaching as well, using the coaching space to embed the learning. Uh, and for, for, for someone to say, to, to have a conversation around, here's what I learned, here's what I'm going to put into practice back into my daily, uh, routine in my role. And here's how I will hold myself accountable. So I do a lot of coaching for embedding learning, uh, as well. I, I have to say, um, all of these se uh, scenarios and all of these examples are, um, by and large fantastic and really successful and amazing. There will also be, uh, the, the, every now and then the one conversation where, uh, you feel that because you're an internal colleague, you find yourself taking on someone's problem or taking on someone's monkey onto your back and feeling, feeling like you've just moved into their shoes and that you just wanna reach out and reach out and rescue or reach out and, um, you know, kind of smother them with empathy. As I say, like just drown them with that much love that you're not gonna help them. That is something I do find challenging because you can't separate at times you find it hard to separate yourself from that person's story, because you have so much more context than you would've, if you were coaching an external counterpart and so through, um, reminding yourself that a coach's job is not to solve someone's problem, you're actually not helping them and through supervision. So going back and speaking to my mentor or speaking to other coaches, um, and work working my way through that moment, uh, or that challenge and kind of realigning, realigning myself to my coaching purpose, um, rather than, you know, needing to rescue someone that's really not helpful. Um, that's the bit that I find super. In, in terms of internal coaching, uh, in, you know, as opposed to external. Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

I'm so pleased you mentioned supervision there, cause that's I was about to, I was reflecting as you were sharing that story about a conversation I had with my supervisor recently about. What I thought was something that was happening or the reason why something was happening. But through talking with the coaching supervisor, I'm like, ahh actually there's a belief in there that I was not aware I was holding and it's not actually helpful, you know, so that I need to rescue belief or I need to you know, the only way for you to be effective is for you to do this belief for my counterpart. So I was really pleased that my supervisor managed to unpack that for me. Yeah. A little bit disappointed when it came out,

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

like, oh, I really think that. Okay. Well, at least now I know, I think that.

Nicole Karagiannis:

yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

I can do something with it, as opposed to just continuing to go, why is this, you know, why, why am I finding this frustrating or disappointing? Or like, it's not quite as effective it's cause I'm putting too much of myself into that conversation. So

Nicole Karagiannis:

Mm

Brendon Le Lievre:

there

Nicole Karagiannis:

that's so good. And did you feel, did you think to yourself once you had sort of realized that, that, oh, Bummer, I should have worked that one out pre, like prior to this conversation or not really?

Brendon Le Lievre:

No, I, I don't, no, I don't think I wish I'd worked it out or that I should have worked it out earlier. I kind of wish I'd gone to supervision a bit earlier.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yes. Good point.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Because it was just like, oh, that's, you know, but I probably wasn't aware of it any much earlier anyway, to be able to do it. But it's funny how these little things just pop up in, you know, early days I would've been like, what's supervision, why do I need it? What even is it? And, and now it's, you know, I need supervision. When can I get into to book it? I need to have a conversation about this and just work it out, cause it, yeah. It stemmed from a desire to help actually. That's what I went in with around, you know, the way for me to add value is to tell. And I, and I, I knew that that wasn't correct, and I knew that sticking with it was important, but I'm like, yeah, that's showing up a bit too often at the moment. So I go and have a chat with the supervisor and, and then we worked out why that was, and it's like, okay, good. Now I can coach in a different way as a result. But yeah, I've been, been really enjoying the supervision sessions I've been having recently, cause.

Nicole Karagiannis:

No. That's good. Yeah. So useful. Right?

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah. So good fun. And you know, like you've got those three moments to coach there, I particularly like, cause I run a little bit of leader as coach training as well. Um, you know, that embedding the learning bits important. Cause I say to people in the course that, you know, they'll go back to the office next week, they'll have all these new skills they'll try and put them into place. They'll be asking more questions. They'll be, you know, encouraging and empowering and what have you using the skills and their team will likely go, this is different.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yes.

Brendon Le Lievre:

What happened? Oh, they went on that course. I'll just wait two weeks and they'll go back to telling me, and it's like, no, no, you need to, you need to keep going with it.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

And when they do, they, people achieve amazing things. As leader, as coach, you know, I've seen it used to generate, you know, good correspondence with ministers cause they were federal government or, you know, put together briefing or work out agendas for planning days. So many applications of

Nicole Karagiannis:

Great.

Brendon Le Lievre:

how do we do this and, and an underutilized skill. I think it's like, no, I need to tell cause I'm the manager it's like you don't, you don't always need to tel,l sometimes a good question will get you there.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Mm-hmm absolutely. We have leader as coach, as part of the leadership program that we run with our leaders, um, with IECL, they, they run that for us and the, the number of us on, on that. Uh, session that we, when we ran that recently kind of really, uh, unpacking the telling versus coaching, um, versus, you know, what are the variables when you know, what were, what was my environment like when I was telling what was my workload? Like what was my stress level? What was my, what was going on for me that particular day, that particular moment. And how do you kind of snap yourself out of it? Yeah. Very important stuff.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Mm. Yep. I used to, when I was internal, I used to ask my team, they'd come to me and say, Brendon, what do you think we should do about blah? And I'd just say, what do you think we should do? You know, the process to decide to ask that question was, is that within their delegation? Is it something that they can manage? Is it something that will be good for them, you know, to lead and to manage? Cause often people sort of say you can't just abdicate responsibility and I'm like, I'm not, this is their thing. If it was my thing, I'll pick it up. This is their thing and my team caught onto it. And so they used to come to me and say, Brendon, What do you think we should do, we want an answer? Not a question. Like tell me what to do. And I would say, what do you think I'm gonna tell you and they'd get halfway through answering it go. No, no, no, no, no. You're meant to tell me and I'd say, well, what you are talking about sounds heaps better than anything I'm gonna come up with. So carry on. Um, so that's always a good application of as well, I

Nicole Karagiannis:

Good one. That's a really good framework. Thanks for sharing.

Brendon Le Lievre:

And then it's good that you have the opportunity to do those longer engagements internally as well and you've mentioned one of the challenges, you know, how do I step out of my chief people officer role and be the, you know, a coach that's available for this individual? How do you prepare yourself for those coaching sessions? You said mindfulness was something you're focused on, but is there another trick to swap roles?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Uh, I really focus on my, my day. I kind of flew my days into four quadrants if you like four quarters so that if I'm having a bad morning, it doesn't turn into a bad day, for example. And so really practicing to, to kind of, it's all about the self talk to say, I had a busy morning, not necessarily about having a busy day as such or a bad day could be, you know, it could be that you had. Um, I had a busy morning running something completely strategic or something completely operational, either ends of the spectrum. And I needed to do a reset mentally, just cognitively around being in that coach mode. Um, rather than, you know, being too STR too strategic or too operational or, uh, busy with a project or whatever the case may be. Uh, also things like, you know, have I had enough sleep? Have I had. Water am I in a good, um, good place where I'm not being going to be interrupted. Um, and so on. So just the environment and the context, firstly, for me personally, and then I, I check with the counterpart, whether that's something that they are, you know, they're in the right frame of mind and this is the right moment for them. When we do get into that session, I do a lot of vocalization around what it is. And especially at the beginning of, of that relationship, what is an internal coach and how. Um, to help the counterpart to actually be able to separate when they're talking to the chief people officer versus when they're talking to a mentor or when they're talking to the coach in front of them, rather than kind of, um, uh, from their end, make a, make a, make the mistake of saying, well, I'm telling you this because you're the chief people officer, and I want you to, you know, do something about it. and so it's a reminder and it's that contracting, if that, if. Uh, individual falls into that trap. It's a reminder that we are in a coaching session and we contracted to be, uh, for me to be a coach. That's what it means, you are owning your, your solution. You are owning your answers and you need to tap into that potential, uh, and respectfully creating that space for them to go back to focusing on, on themselves. But in doing so, um, if there is obviously a genuine, uh, matter that I need to pick up as a chief people officer to create the time after, before, whatever it might be after that coaching session, uh, to say, okay, now let's unpack that and what do you need me to do? What do I need you to do? And, and, uh, solve something from a, from a P&C point of view, people and culture, as opposed to, uh, that coaching. So there's a lot of that that goes on in terms of verbalizing and, and sharing, uh, sharing that with the counterpart. Uh, and then, yeah, it gets easier with the individual as you go really.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I imagine that could be quite challenging. If someone brings, you know, something that sits in your wheelhouse with performance management, uh, potential bullying, harassment, you know, that desire to step in and say, well, here's the legislation and here's the policy. And it's like, no, we don't need to do any of that, yet.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and it's a matter of, uh, sometimes it's like, just tell me, just get me to the end result, just get me to the outcome. and so we take a moment to slow down and say the journey of how we get there is going to make a difference to what you learn, how you grow as a leader and how I, how I help you by giving you your your own tools and by helping you UN unlock your own self talk. So I actually do want us to slow down and talk about the journey we can get there quickly through this avenue, this avenue, this avenue, we can get there slowly through, um, this avenue, be it a coaching conversation, be it you going away and reflecting or whatever it might be. But when we do get there, you would've sat with that discomfort of the situation for a little bit longer, which means you're going to grow as an individual because you've been out of your comfort zone for a little bit longer.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Mm,

Nicole Karagiannis:

So, and they're like, damn, okay, fine. If you say so

Brendon Le Lievre:

Actually more efficient to go slowly. I've often found because recently there's been a lot of coaching sessions where people are showing go I'm just so busy and I've had to work really hard to hold the, the time for our session. And I've got so much on and it's, you know, distracting them in the background and you're like, okay, just like you say, let's just slow down. Let's just think about it a little bit differently. And then I had one counterpart. Decide that they were oing to ggo back and talk to all their key stakeholders and, um, check whether the work that was on their sort of program of work schedule, whether it still needed to be done because some of it had been asked for a while ago and things had sort of changed. So they went and had these conversations and a whole bunch of their stakeholders were like, no, that's not as urgent or that's not relevant or that doesn't actually need to be done anymore. We got information in a different way and so then they came back and they're like, I'm not actually as busy as I thought I was. And I'm able to be far more targeted in where I spend my time. It's like, oh, well, that's, that's a great outcome. But if we hadn't, like you said, if we hadn't gone slow, we just rushed and did all the work and stayed busy. They probably never would've got there.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah, that's so true. I actually had one of our leaders, um, today. So this, this one's, uh, credit to him. One of our leaders, um, in a, in a slack message, we were exchanging some messages this morning and he said to me, I, I, I'm asking you this question. It was just about, you know, when's this thing due or whatever it was. Um, just to clarify, I'm asking this question because I would like. I'd like to keep my mental model in as close to the reality of my world as possible. And I love that so much. It's just about making sure that what the story I've told myself in my head, if I'm too busy, not busy enough, happy, not happy actually is as aligned to my reality as possible. So that self talk and that narrative, the story we tell ourselves is just so pro yeah. So.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Hmm. How do you find the self-talk shows up? Cause we've spoken about that a few times now for you in the people that you work with, how does that self-talk

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah, great question. I talk, I, uh, wherever possible. And if the counterpart is open to this, I, uh, contract with them to talk about their, their self talk and their narrative and the story they've told. Themselves as a good landscape or a baseline for what is actually going on for them and unpacking that in different, different ways, whether it's, you know, using the village, um, method. I think that was in level one or level two. I'm gonna not remember now. Uh, but it was where you kind of went to your, you know, the three voices in your. What are, what are they telling you? Um, and do a bit of that, but usually as well, I, in the way I ask questions, uh, whether it's the question, you know, what are you telling yourself right now? And just holding that space for, for, for the, you know, for the counterpart to. Answer that then I'll ask it in a different way and I'll just get to the second layer of that onion and keep going until we get to the real, what are you telling yourself right now? Uh, that, that, uh, is really, uh, for me, I find that quite effective. Um, but only of course, as, as I've contracted with someone to, to kind of unpack, unpack things in that way. Uh, so there's, there's obviously the questioning part, but also just the, I guess the third part to this answer is around how they speak and the language, the body language, the posture, the face, the small comments they make along the way like, oh, You know, silly me I should have worked that one out with, you know, before having this insight or, um, you know, I, you know, this happened to me 10 years ago. Why am I doing this again? Or that, whether it's negative or positive, by the way, self-talk, it's about either capturing it to change it or capturing it to celebrate it equally important.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah. Yeah. That inner critic is dangerous to listen to

Nicole Karagiannis:

Mm. Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

but good to like, have it, like give it a bit of stage time and, and go, okay, I'm actually gonna listen to you cause it serves somewhat of a purpose. Uh, but I remind people as well that, you know, invite it out, let it have its bit to say, but. All the awesome stuff that you've achieved so, you know, academically, personally, professionally, you know, in family life, with friends in sporting endeavors, the critic has helped you achieve precisely none of that. So just tell it to go away sometimes or remind what the scoreboard is and, and get the champion out a little bit more often,

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah. Yeah. Good one.

Brendon Le Lievre:

can get, get really caught in that should I do this or should I do it? Or why am I doing it? Or, um, am I the right person to do it or yeah, all of that.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah, absolutely.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Just go away. Just go away sometimes. Yeah.

Nicole Karagiannis:

yeah,

Brendon Le Lievre:

And it's interesting like that point around or 10 years ago, such and such happened. And we still think about it as well. It's like if only we could hold onto, well, from my perspective, so more of the positives from 10 years ago, it's always the, I botched that or I dropped the ball there or I should have done better there. It's like, you don't even see the people that you're thinking about anymore. Just let it go Brendon, but still appears every now and again, like that was a bit silly wasn't it?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. I mean, our, our brains are wired to forget some events so that we, you know, by way of protecting us and, and for us to, you know, heal and move forward. But on the other hand, there's just some things that are so deeply ingrained. Um, uh, and you do, you tend to just remember the, the, the, the bit, you know, that time that you stuffed it up rather than all the successes you had around, around it, whatever it is, whether it's a previous, you know, career, previous job or a particular project, and you think, wow, I need to, I need to deal with this and move on this past. You know, whether it's past trauma or past memory or whatever it is coming back to haunt me because my brain's recognizing a pattern. With what I'm dealing with in the here and now I, I need to work out how it can help me move forward, or if it's gonna hold me back. I mean, the brain's fascinating. I'm I'm no where near an expert talking about it. Just love, love the thought of knowing all things, neuroscience.

Brendon Le Lievre:

What's your self talk there. If I could I'm not an expert. You've done a lot of study. You've learned a lot of things. You've helped a lot of people.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Good call out. Thank you.

Brendon Le Lievre:

There you go.

Nicole Karagiannis:

oh, too funny.

Brendon Le Lievre:

How do

Nicole Karagiannis:

Thanks

Brendon Le Lievre:

That's all right. I mean, you've also, you know, you said that you, you know, check in a lot with yourself. I like the concept of the four quarters in a day, cause it means if one of them gets away from you. It doesn't mean the whole day does, um, as well. But how do you, you know, check in with your physical self, the self talks, the mental self, but how do you check in with your physical self pre-coaching sessions?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Uh, pre I, uh, your pre, uh, coaching session, you'll find me having a cup of tea or a glass of water. Uh, you know, uh, walk, do a, I usually do a, this is gonna, this is gonna be a fun one. I usually do a quick five minute walk just to clear, my head, uh, whether that's, you know, literally around the office, um, or, uh, outside. Uh, whether if I'm, you know, if I'm working from home or whatever, it might be on particular day where a, a particular day where I'm physically, you know, tired or, you know, had a late one with the kids or, um, uh, not, not having been eating right or drinking enough water or whatever it may be. I, uh, really have a bit of a check in with myself that, uh, I know you're physically, uh, tired. Can you still commit to this? If yes, then let's, let's, let's recalibrate you, uh, you know, afterwards. Uh, that's that to me is pretty, uh, pretty important as well. Um, but from a, I guess the most critical, uh, piece in all of this is sleep for me. Having, having had sleepless nights with, with newborns and the works, and we've got a puppy at the moment. So we're kind of going back to the sleepless night days, you know, clear sleepless nights. Uh, once again, uh, for me having a good night's sleep and knowing, uh, looking at the calendar, knowing when I've got big coaching sessions coming up or big, heavy meeting days. Uh, make sure I'm in bed by 9:00 PM or 10:00 PM at the very latest, uh, and that, you know, I didn't fall asleep watching a movie on the couch, woke up with a sore neck. Uh, that's pretty important.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Mm.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah, we're waiting for everyone to be sleeping through the night here, before we explore the puppy. Um,

Nicole Karagiannis:

Oh dear.

Brendon Le Lievre:

We're close.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Good Luck.

Brendon Le Lievre:

but we're not quite there. It's just, yeah. It's like, do we want something else? That's gonna wake us up in the middle of the night just now. Probably not, but there we go. What sort of puppy did you get?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah. Uh, we have, we now have a 10 week old we picked her up a few days ago. Uh, GSP German, short hair pointer. She's very cute. Yeah. She's uh, she sleeps all day and is up all night. So we we're definitely in newborn territory. Again, it's hard work.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Poor thing. I remember. Yeah. When I went back to work, uh, following the, my eldest being born, I said to the two ladies that worked with me. If I say I'm gonna do something and I don't write it down, I'm just not gonna do it, cause I'm not gonna remember. So can you prod me and tell me if I agree to do something and you see me not write it down? They're like, yeah, that's fine because yeah, but I think I, you know, that's, it's an important part of prepping is, um, for coaching sessions. I know that, you know, historically I've I have done four or five sort of coaching sessions in a day and hitting the fourth or the fifth one. It's often a bit. I don't know whether I'm in my best space right now. I'm pretty tired. I've been doing a lot of listening and.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Connecting with others and so, you know, I just don't do that anymore, especially cause it's virtual now. It makes life a lot easier. The vast majority of my coaching's virtual, I used to do that cause I'd be in an office block working with a team. And so I was like, well, I'm here I may as well do it. And now that it's virtual and the travel's not there, it makes life a lot easier around okay. I can space these out and

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

yeah.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Make sure you you're, you know, look you've looked after yourself so you can look after your counterparts. Yeah. I, I know this is not a physical one, but I love, I, I always check in with myself is if I'm about to give from an empty cup and how do I quickly fill it, um, or, or make sure that it hasn't reached empty. Uh, and usually for me, one, my one. Um, trick in that is BEC uh, because we are, you know, as humans, we love, we love making, um, others feel good and because we love giving, I usually think when my cup is empty, I reach out to someone and say, thank you to them "job well done," or reach out and surprise them with a compliment or with a, with a, with a, you know, a little chat or a, you know, with a coffee or something. And so I find. I, I, I give back, um, uh, in sort of a small, you know, whether it's something super small, like a quick, you know, two minute, thank you message to someone just so I can also, um, uh, recalibrate, uh, the good, and it reminds me of the good that I've done this, you know, that particular week or that particular day. Um, and it makes you feel good. And so you're in this sort of, really much better mood, uh, and able to keep, to keep going with giving you a, you know, a, a part of yourself to the next conversation.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah, I like it. I've got a, uh, cause music's another thing that works for me listening to music. I've got a song that for a while there, I, I still play at the start of every workshop that I run. It's just the first one in the playlist that I play. And it's just a bit of a, it, it picks me up. I don't.

Nicole Karagiannis:

What is it?

Brendon Le Lievre:

works, but yeah, my, every now and again, with everyone at home, yeah. My wife will hear it go on and she's like, oh, you getting ready to do some, you, either a workshop or a coaching session. I, and I'm like, yep just trying to, you know, Pavlovian in my response into having a bit more energy here as well and

Nicole Karagiannis:

That's awesome. What's the song dying to know.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Boogie shoes by, uh, KC in the sunshine band. I think

Nicole Karagiannis:

Ah, oh, nice. I like it.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Old school disco. Yep. There it is. And then straight into Whitney Houston, I wanna dance with somebody that's that's what's on the workshop playlist,

Nicole Karagiannis:

I love that. Love them.

Brendon Le Lievre:

so, you know, and then we just move on from there. But yeah, I play, yeah. I play a lot of music, not in coaching, but in workshops and, um, something I, I learned with some training that I'd done, uh, in facilitation skills. and it surprises me how quick, like I try and link the song to whatever the activity is that we are doing or about to do. So sometimes they spend way too long thinking through, well, what's the link here and how am I gonna create it? Sometimes it's like, just put some music on Brendon. Um, but people clock it. They notice it.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

That's cool. And other people are like, what are you talking about?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah.

Brendon Le Lievre:

It's not for everyone, but yeah, I'm really enjoying the ability to have, you know, to play music and have music around. I think it, and it does help me as well, but I quite like the firing off a compliment, so that, or a, some feedback. That's cool.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah. Yeah. I, I love music too. Um, we've got a few concerts coming up actually this year. We're very excited to be back out into the world. So yeah, love.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Who's on the concert list, least.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Uh, this, so I'm going to these with my stepdaughter. Who's 14. Um, and she's very artistic, loves music, uh, sings, beautifully. Uh, we're doing, I think Bruno Mars in October and, um, taking her to, is it Dua Lipa. In November and I have I've had no, um, I've had no ability lately to remember any of the lyrics. So I've been given some deadlines to do some studying so I can remember some songs and look like I belong at the, both, both concerts. So I'll be listening to those two up until the day.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Bit of homework,

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah, a bit of homework. I've been, I've been given certain albums. I need to listen to and songs I need to, you know, catch up, catch up with. So I'll be busy.

Brendon Le Lievre:

I like it. And you said as well as being, you know, able to coach internally, you coach externally, who, what are the sort of clients or counterparts that you work with from when you're external to Harrison?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Uh, yeah, it's, uh, It's a bit of a collection, actually, whether that's previous executives I've worked with and maintained a, uh, a connection, um, a connection with, from a coaching perspective, whether it is, um, business, business owners. So, uh, from founders to small business owners, to, to different types of leaders in, in small businesses, um, whether that's through the, the, from a corporate sense or from a, um, even from you know, non, non corporate sense. So my husband owns a tiling company, uh, and his network, uh, in the construction industry. He has a number of businesses that he's connected with. So I'm often, um, coaching or having a conversation here, there, and everywhere, and love, love those. Um, and whether it's, um, friends who are in various roles and who reach out um, for that coaching moment, if it's career coaching or solving for a problem or, um, embedding something they've learned, there's different topics, which is like, it's a great variety. Love it.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah, lovely. Any success in coaching, your husband? Cause I've had none coaching my wife.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Uh, Zero, I was hoping you wouldn't ask that I'm.

Brendon Le Lievre:

She says to me, don't use that coaching stuff on me. I'm like, I'm not I'm listening. That's all I'm doing.

Nicole Karagiannis:

uh, think. I I once said, would you like some coaching? And I lasted about 30 seconds without, before I went into telling mode and getting completely emotional and uh, in a, in a, like a hilarious way going, you should have done this, then you could have done that. And it was like, no, I'm not, you're fired, you're not my coach anymore. so it was a complete, yeah, not my best work I have to say.

Brendon Le Lievre:

That's alright. Yeah,

Nicole Karagiannis:

Too funny.

Brendon Le Lievre:

it is funny. I think it's you. I had a conversation with someone this morning as well about, um, some of the coaching work I do with new dads and, um, you know, the, the Dad I was speaking with asked me, he goes, what's your background? I said, oh, I'm an executive and leadership coach and he went, oh yeah. And I went, it sounds like, you know, maybe you've got some experience or you, you know, you know, someone who is a coach, he goes, oh yeah, my wife does that. So it's like, oh, he goes, so I'm completely across how that process works. I know the value of it. You kind of, don't have to explain it to me anymore. And, and I sort of, I was like, oh, that's, you know, that's good that you've got that exposure to, it was kind of what I was reflecting on around okay. I don't have to sort of set this up for you any further than that. Um, so it's good that the awareness of it is growing. I think, around what coaching is and what good coaching is, cause you know, still have a, a little bit of a challenge with the fact that anyone can call themselves a coach, um, and or the importance of, of membership of professional bodies. You know, of which the international coaching Federation is one and one that I'm reasonably closely linked to having been ACT president previously,

Nicole Karagiannis:

That's right.

Brendon Le Lievre:

But yeah. Um, you know, and you know, the credentialing we were talking about earlier to demonstrate that commitment, um, and, and note that, you know, it takes a hundred hours to get a hundred hours of coaching up. You can't speed that up.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yep. Exactly.

Brendon Le Lievre:

And it takes 500 to get 500 and it takes two and a half thousand to get to two and a half thousand. So only four hours of coaching a week every week until the end of 2030. And I'll hit , I'll hit that number.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Oh, it'll it'll come around so quickly.

Brendon Le Lievre:

well, you know, that seems crazy. But I remember I was working in an organization in 2015, writing a strategy, you know, for the year 2020 and thinking that's forever away. Like, why are we thinking that far out and how are we gonna get in, you know, all this stuff done, but, but

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yep.

Brendon Le Lievre:

type thing. And then now that's obviously historical. So, um, yeah, it it's, it moves quick that, you know, that time.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah, it does. It does. I love that you coach, you're still coaching new dads. I know that you that's something you had started a few years ago, so that's awesome.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Yeah, it's really a real pleasure to work in that space, just to help them navigate, you know, or help them, you know, support, not help support, um, them to, to find their way through it. Cause I just find there's this huge values realization. I don't even think it's an alignment. I think we are just good at ignoring it until we become parents or you know, and then it's like, oh, now that I'm a dad. I kind of gotta do something with that, cause I can't just hide from it anymore. So

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah. Yeah. So true. We, uh, it, I bet. I bet it'd be. So it would be so rewarding. We recently, uh, launched our, becoming a parent program at work with, um, with, with, uh, with Harrison AI here and, uh, being, you know, it's a gender neutral program and it's been amazing for our, um, you know, mums and dads and, you know, partners of course, not just, um, from an employee perspective, there's lots of things that partners can access. Um, and yeah, one of the things was how do we support um, the dads. Being a male-dominated, um, organization, we didn't wanna leave anyone behind. Um, so yeah, huge, you know, huge efforts from, from the whole family unit to, to raise a child. And, uh, it's been, it's been really, uh, humbling to have been able to contribute to that from an organization point of view, in some small way.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Mm. Yeah, that sounds awesome. Um, cause one of the reasons that., you know, I decided to start working in that space a lot was I had through my normal coaching practice, a lot of new dads sort of showing up and, and saying things like, um, you know, I'd just become a dad was kind of the start. Congratulations, first of all. And then it was, and I want to study, or I wanna go part-time or I want to be, full-time stay at home or I wanna quit, or, you know, all these things. And, you know, I'm only entitled to two weeks leave and then it's kind of, you know, Get back in here and get on with it. And, um, you know, in talking with them about what sort of, some of the options were, many of them were saying, they'd go in to have the conversation with HR or their manager around, you know, want to take some leave or, or want to, you know, be away from the office for a period of time and the response would be, but we are gonna be really busy here and we need you here and you're about to be promoted and why would you put your career on hold? Like old thinking? If be a bit judgey about it, but then they'd say they're partners who often, you know, were working in the same organization or the same sort of field would go in and say, I'm pregnant and I'm gonna have a child. And the response was, well, here's the form we'll see in six months. And I find, I have issues with both of those conversations. They they're both wrong. They need to come together where, you know, as a mum, yes, you, you know, you've got access to leave and there's an entitlement there and you, you know, likely to want to take some time. Definitely. How do we support you and your career while you're on leave? Uh, and for the, you know, new dads or, you know, partners. How do we support you to take some time off without it being seen as detrimental to your career? I think there's, we need both conversations to be better, which is pleasing to hear that organizations are making strides and taking effort in that space to support, you know, non birthing parents.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah. AB oh, absolutely. We, uh, so we offer 16 weeks of parental leave, um, gender neutral and carer neutral. You don't have to prove that you're the primary or the secondary carer and, and doesn't matter what your gender is. Um, but also you can take that 16 weeks within the first two years of the baby being born. So structuring, you know, taking some around the birth, taking some, when your partners wanting to go to work and you wanna step in and, and help out, um, or structuring it in a way where you're working part-time and accessing part, you know, part leave part part-time work. So financially you are, you are pretty, uh, you know, you're still the same, ultimately that's, that's been a huge, um, uh, you know, a piece around the flexibility, um, with that. And the other one that's been really big for us is around the IVF supporting, supporting, um, uh, our people through their IVF journey from a financial point of view and from a flexibility point of view, um, also with miscarriage and early pregnancy loss, the amount of male employees who reached out to us to say, you know, thank you for making these resources available. Um, uh, you know, we partnered with the pink elephants, um, uh, network, which is an organization that has amazing resources to support people, um, going through, uh, early pregnancy loss and miscarriage. And we have leave, you know, you take, you can take leave, um, for that. Uh, and of course another, uh, amazing feature of the program is you can take two weeks of leave when your, um, your child is about to start school. Uh, so, you know, fast forward five years and life is good. The emotions come back when you're, you're there with, you know, your office works list or, you know, looking for school, you know, shopping for school uniforms and, uh, buying a lunchbox and all the good stuff. You can take some leave for that too, whether you are the mum or the dad. Um, yeah, so these, these things are spot on. They have to be equal conversations and both, uh, you know, supporting, supporting both, um, uh, both genders and from a caring from a carer point of view that shouldn't, you know, that shouldn't matter either. So hopefully more and more organizations are following, uh, um, you know, that, that method.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Mm. Are you finding internally people are showing up for coaching around, you know, either return to work, uh, post leave or in preparation for leave as well?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Uh, yes, absolutely. And they're asking for those conversations. And so that's the beautiful thing when you put a, a policy or a, a coaching program or a, or a, an initiative out there it's not just. It's not just, you kind of really turn the organization upside down in a good way. It's not just finding the people to say, Hey, you know, let's have a conversation. You've all of a sudden unpacked, a, an amazingly safe environment where people reach out to people to have a conversation. Whether that's, you know, I'm reaching out to my people leader, whether I'm reaching out to the people and culture team, whether I'm reaching out to accredited mental health, first aid officer, a few of us are HFA or M HFOs, mental health, first aid officers, um, reaching out around, you know, how do I, how do I make sure I have the support before and during and after. Um, lots of conversations are happening everywhere and, uh, and that's beautiful. You're not having to tap people on the shoulder to say, can we talk about how you're going to, you know, what support you need? People are self, um, uh, self identifying and are empowered to have those conversations.

Brendon Le Lievre:

That's awesome. I like that turning the organization upside down in a good way,

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yes.

Brendon Le Lievre:

in a good way, as opposed to just throwing it all up in the air and seeing what, how it falls down.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Yeah, exactly.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Nice. Well, I've got my eight questions to close us out,

Nicole Karagiannis:

All right.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Unless there's something you'd like to, you know, bring to the table or share at this.

Nicole Karagiannis:

No all Bood. Thank you.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Let's do the eight questions then as, uh, just whatever comes to you, rapid fire.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Done,

Brendon Le Lievre:

So the first question is, uh, Nicole, what fulfills you?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Helping others.

Brendon Le Lievre:

And what frustrates you?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Not helping others,

Brendon Le Lievre:

If you could recommend one book that everyone should read, what book would you recommend?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Atlas of the heart, Brene Brown,

Brendon Le Lievre:

What do you most admire in your counterparts?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Their, um, hidden potential.

Brendon Le Lievre:

What's your favorite coaching question?

Nicole Karagiannis:

If you could do one thing differently, what would that be?

Brendon Le Lievre:

If you weren't a coach, what would you be?

Nicole Karagiannis:

uh, what would I be? I would be a teacher.

Brendon Le Lievre:

And if you could tell your younger self anything, what would you be saying?

Nicole Karagiannis:

Uh, you can, you can do anything as long as you don't reach for perfection.

Brendon Le Lievre:

Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Thanks for hanging out.

Nicole Karagiannis:

Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Amazing. Thanks for having me Brendon. Appreciate it.