Rob Hills - Mindfulness, Leadership, and Sustainable Success

 In this episode of the Coach Conversations Podcast, Rob Hills shares his journey from the Air Force to leadership development and coaching, highlighting the power of mindfulness and sustainable leadership. Rob candidly discusses his challenges with overthinking and how mindfulness helped him navigate his career and personal life. He explains the importance of self-awareness and provides practical techniques, including the STOP method (Stop, Take a breath, Observe, Proceed), for managing stress and maintaining focus. Rob also explores the evolving dynamics of leadership in today’s work environment, emphasising the need for sustainable practices to prevent burnout and build resilient teams. His insights into leadership development tools like HBDI, combined with his commitment to helping others live better lives, make this episode an inspiring and practical guide for leaders seeking balance and effectiveness.
 
 Bio
 
Rob Hills is a distinguished leadership expert with nearly three decades of experience spanning the Royal Australian Air Force, Australian Federal Police, and ACT Public Service. As the host of The Balanced Leader Podcast and author of 'Mindful Leadership Blueprint', he has dedicated his career to helping leaders elevate their wellbeing and create healthier workplaces. His extensive background includes delivering leadership and intelligence workshops to tens of thousands of participants worldwide.
 
Drawing from his diverse professional experience, Rob works as a leadership coach and facilitator, empowering individuals and organisations to unlock their full potential. His approach combines practical leadership strategies with a deep understanding of wellbeing principles, enabling sustainable high performance. Through his podcast, coaching services, and speaking engagements, Rob continues to guide professionals in developing the skills, mindset, and resilience needed to thrive in today's dynamic leadership landscape 

Connect with Rob

Website: www.robhills.com.au
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-hills

Transcript

Rob Hills

[00:00:00] Brendon: Hello and welcome to the Coach Conversations Podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things coaching. I'm Brendan LeLievre and today I'm joined by Rob Hills. How did you find coaching, Rob, or how did it find you? 

[00:00:21] Rob: Well, first of all, Brendan, thanks for, thanks for having me on the podcast, mate.

Um, it's been a long time coming, uh, and yeah, really grateful to be here with you today. Uh, good question. Yeah. So podcasting, podcasting, coaching kind of found me. Um, so I was in the air force for 10 years and, uh, we did a lot of, uh, Sort of, I suppose, not executive coaching, it was more of that on the job coaching, um, and I really kind of found I had a bit of a knack for it, and I enjoyed doing it, so I started getting into leadership development when I was in the AFP, the Australian Federal Police, and eventually found myself on a, um, IECL level one executive coaching course.

And that blew my mind because I think I had a vision of what coaching was meant to be. And it wasn't that when I actually went and did the course. So, uh, really opened my eye to what I was doing in the past and then what I started doing ever since doing the course. Um, and then luckily, you know, again, with the AFP, uh, use that, use those coaching skills to, to coach people on leadership development programs.

Uh, and then I've used it in my own. um, personal consulting and then working for other consulting companies as well. 

[00:01:38] Brendon: Wonderful. Great, you know, different range of environments and skills that you've been applying that in. And I, I echo that. I know I've said before, but, you know, I showed up to IACL1 going, how are they going to stretch telling people what to do out for three days?

That's going to be, and then I was like, Oh, it's not about telling at all. It's about asking good questions. 

[00:01:58] Rob: Yeah. Did you do the thing where they gave you the script? So to really get you out of the habit of. trying to offer advice or whatever. Um, part of the, and it may have been day one, they actually gave you a script and they said, whatever you do, just stick to the script.

And you're like, what do you mean stick to the script? How's this going to work? And it's so uncomfortable because you're like, but I want to do this. I want to say this, but it was the best thing because it really got you out of your patterns and started, you know, embedding what this should look like, how you should ask questions and how you should leave space for the person to answer.

[00:02:34] Brendon: They did. I think it was a little card from memory. It had a whole bunch of questions on it. 

[00:02:38] Rob: Yeah. 

[00:02:39] Brendon: And not a great student, obviously, because I remember I asked sort of like three or four of them and went, Oh, I reckon I've got this now. I can make something up. And so I made up a question and John Raymond, who was the instructor, walked past and just went, Just read the questions, Brennan.

Like, he was on to me really quickly. Yeah. And it, you know, Proved that all those assumptions and beliefs about how this won't work and people need to be told and it's my job to fix it That they're all wrong and not relevant in the coaching and in fact people can come up with their own solutions solve their own problems and draw from their own experience and 

[00:03:17] Rob: Yeah 

[00:03:19] Brendon: better outcomes as a result.

[00:03:21] Rob: Exactly. And it wasn't until I've done some executive coaching myself after doing that course where people have just asked the questions and I've come up with the, you know, the gems that were in there flicking away somewhere, um, behind a lot of other stuff going on, obviously that I've gone, Oh yeah, that's really cool.

The sort of penny dropped, if you like, once again. 

[00:03:41] Brendon: Which was nice. Even if you know that what's coming, I find that happens to me when I'm being coached. I sort of think to myself, don't use that technique on me. I know where you're going to take this, and then I'm going to commit to something, and then I'm going to have to go and do it.

And I was kind of enjoying just whinging about it, but now it's productive. Don't do that to me. 

[00:04:00] Rob: Do you think the worst counterparts are actual coaches themselves? Because they can sort of see it coming and they can go, Oh, I know what's going to happen. Or do you think it's okay? 

[00:04:14] Brendon: I 

[00:04:14] Rob: think, 

[00:04:15] Brendon: and this is true of supervision as well, that coaches are naturally, either naturally or are learned, behavior reflective people.

And so they come to those conversations having already done a fair amount of the heavy, of the, you know, low hanging fruit is gone. Yeah. Uh, so that they're not. That's not gonna get there. But they are more prepared. Often I find to be pushed a little earlier or to be stretched a little bit earlier, or for the tension to be a bit higher, uh, to have their cha, their assumptions challenged earlier than maybe those that aren't trained as a coach.

Yeah. But I think they expect it as well, and that can be hard. 

[00:05:01] Rob: Yeah, yeah, and I think it's just an anticipatory thing where they might see it happening before it happens and may even re empt or have that little, like you, have that little wry smile on their face going, I know what you're doing here, don't like it, but I'm gonna, you know, stick to the, stick to the format.

[00:05:18] Brendon: Yeah, and they know that the value's on the other side of it, so they will push, push to get that done. Yeah. Nice. Uh, and, and we, the first question was, uh, how did you find coaching? And you responded with, how did you find podcasting? So we should talk about your podcast because it's, 

[00:05:35] Rob: it's, 

[00:05:36] Brendon: it's there. So tell us about the balanced leader podcast and how you've been.

getting into that. 

[00:05:45] Rob: Yeah, so it's interesting. Um, I've wanted to start a podcast for a long time. Like, I'm talking five years when I started listening to podcasts myself. And I've been an avid listener for six, seven years, whatever it is. Um, and I think it's just a great format. And I've, I've gained so much by listening and being just someone who consumes the content that I thought, I thought to myself, you know, I'd really like to offer that as a service to someone.

to try and help people, because that's kind of like my mission. My mission is I want to help people live better lives. So eventually, about, oh, about a year and a half ago, my wife said to me, uh, you should do this. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know I should. And she's like, no, no, you should do it. So, uh, I kind of committed at the time and I said, yeah, okay, let's, let's have a look at it.

I was working in a government agency and I took it to the government agency and they and they said yeah, of course, no worries. I said yeah, yeah, but I just want to get the paperwork signed off. It's got to be secondary employment because, you know, I'm a public servant. And that started out fine. A week later it was, oh, maybe, maybe not, maybe you shouldn't be doing this.

And then a week later it was like, oh, this could be a conflict of interest. And anyway, for me, it felt like it to the point where it was like. It's either the podcast or the job, and I chose the podcast. So, um, so yeah, so I started the podcast mainly around well being and particularly for leaders, um, to try and create healthier workplaces.

So I've been a public servant for a long time, 25 years. Um, and I've seen in that time, a lot of suffering in the workplace. A lot of people who with minor tweaks can achieve amazing things. Um, and can look after themselves just a little bit better. So it really aligned with my mission of trying to help people be, you know, the best version of themselves.

At first I thought it was just going to be me. I thought there's no way I'm going to get guests for this thing, right? I've got no following. I've been a public servant for so long. I'm not like I'm, you know, prolific on social media or anything. Um, But I've just been blown away by the caliber of guests that I've, I've managed to get on and all experts in their fields, um, you know, doctors, um, former CEOs, uh, people that I've been quoting for years in my leadership development, um, facilitation have all said, yeah, great.

Well, happy to come along. So, uh, coming up to the end of season one. I've been going for just over a year now, 29 episodes. Um, it's been incredible. Like, I've learned so much. I thought, you know, I knew a lot already. Um, but there's more things that you just keep on picking up. Or there's things again in the back of the mind that you're not really conscious of that just brings it to the floor.

Um, so you can, can mull over it. But, uh, yeah, it's been, it's, it's a labour of love. Um, as you would know, you know, post production, these things take time. Um, putting them up on social media, I actually, I work part time, so this is something I just do for myself. Um, yeah. But it, it really stemmed from that wanting to create an impact for people and wanting to, you know, give back in some way, something, if, if this can help, you know, five people, then fantastic.

Um, it's, it's done its job. 

[00:09:07] Brendon: Yeah, it's a really interesting medium to hang out in and work in, I think, and I didn't really know what I was signing up for with regards to kind of the post production and the finding guests and the, you know, What will we even talk about? We'll just go where we need to go.

[00:09:27] Rob: You've heard of Podfade, haven't you? What's Podfade? I'm about to learn. So Podfade is that 90, like, 8 percent of podcasters quit before 7 episodes. Wow. Because the barriers to entry are quite low. So anyone with a microphone and a recording platform can jump on and do it. But then people find out how much work is involved and they're like, Yeah, nah.

So, um, yeah, so if you get past 7 episodes, you've done well. 

[00:09:57] Brendon: All right, well, we're past that. I think this will be episode 22. Nice! Ish, that's to say. But plus 20, let's say that. Yeah, that's awesome. Um, and yeah, great. It's been great fun, like you say, just getting to connect with people and, or reconnect with people and hear kind of what's been going on in their world, in this environment.

And the little insights that just coming out through the conversations. Fantastic. Then I get to go and quote them when I'm running workshops or doing coaching or whatever and reflect with people on those. 

[00:10:30] Rob: Yeah. Oh, and it's great. I really love, um, highlighting people's work as well. Uh, particularly again, some of the guests I've had are just amazing people.

So, um, if I can bring more light to, to what they're doing, cause they're doing fantastic work, then that's awesome. Nice, 

[00:10:47] Brendon: nice, um, thing to put out into the world. I like it. Yeah,

and we were, uh, I was just thinking it must be close to nine years that we've known each other. So there's a little bit of reconnecting going on. 

[00:11:05] Rob: 2016. 

[00:11:06] Brendon: Yeah, HPDI training was when we, we first bumped into each other. 

[00:11:11] Rob: I was just showing you, I was holding on to my yellow, um, Herman brain. here, after facilitating a workshop the other day.

Yeah, it's funny because, uh, I remember you and I kind of sit in different quadrants, um, but have, have maintained a connection over the years, uh, which I've really enjoyed. It's been great. 

[00:11:30] Brendon: Preference, not capability. That's exactly right. You're showing off with the squeezy brains there as well, because Herman have stopped making them as far as I know, you can't get them anymore, and people, and, and the bears, and 

[00:11:40] Rob: the, and the bears, yeah, yeah, we got a bit of stock on the bears, because, um, people love the bears, so it's a shame they're getting rid of them, but anyway.

[00:11:49] Brendon: How do you use, uh, HBDI as a tool in your in the many things you do. 

[00:11:56] Rob: Yeah. Well, and yes, use it for facilitation. Absolutely. For coaching. Um, uh, as you mentioned, you know, 2016 was when we did our certification. Uh, I was working for an RTO at the time. We were using it as part of our leadership development program, uh, programs, and also with coaching, um, and, and even team building workshops.

And when I went back into the AFP, cause I was on a bit of a sabbatical, Uh, they were using DISC and I had done DISC before but I found it because I'd had so much success with HPDI I'm like yeah I'm in charge now let's go with HPDI uh and so have done hundreds if not into the thousands um with AFP on our um on the team leader development program that we were running and then also leaders come on and did the workshop and then take it back into their workplace and like, I want to do this with my team.

So I'm really fortunate that I get to do it now as well. Um, have a quite a steady stream of, of businesses, organizations who are looking for some team building. And this is just the best tool I found. Because I still have people, I ran a session for my wife's team at her school and people still come up to me and they're like, Oh, my red brain.

Or, you know, I remember when you were talking about the blues and the greens, um, and it sticks, it's very sticky. So people get a lot out of it. The interaction between teams works really, really well. Um, and so now I primarily use it as a team building workshop thing, but yeah, absolutely. And coaching as well.

It's a good, it's a good starting point. 

[00:13:32] Brendon: Yeah, I find it gives people the vocabulary to talk about how they think, how they operate, how they see the world without it having a whole bunch of negative connotations. And, uh, I, I do use it in programs as well. And one of my favorite things to do is to put people in groups by their preferences.

without telling them that I have done that and then to ask them to all reflect on the same question. That's really 

[00:14:06] Rob: cool. Yeah. Yeah. I've never, you and I should facilitate a session one day. Um, my blue brain and your yellow brain. I've got the two brains in my hand. Uh, yeah, that would be, that would be a lot of fun.

I really like that. How does it usually play? Does it play out the same way every time you see themes? 

[00:14:22] Brendon: Yeah, it's a definite theme. Some groups, it can be a bit harder to not pollute preferences with other preferences, but, uh, yeah, I read, so one of the things I do in a leadership program is, um, the question I'll ask is, what do good leaders do?

And here's your groups, I've randomly allocated you, your group, kind of, into your groups, what, what a good leaders do, or what's good communication look like, or what's important to us in teams, kind of whatever the theme of the, and what generally happens is that the strong blue preference group will, they tend to stand pretty quietly and kind of look at the flip chart and then they get into a bit of a definition, usually.

Like, what does good mean? Um, let's make sure we're clear on what good leadership or good communication is before we get anywhere. And they really hone in on making sure they've got that right. The, so that's very analytical thinking. The green preference group, very organized and structured thinking. They tend to stand around in a group and not say a lot to each other, but when they do speak, they'll get this like lovely organized, neat prioritized kind of description of what is important to them on their flip chart.

The strong red preference, which is the relational kind of emotional rapport building, connecting with others style of thinking. Uh, they will have a lovely conversation about who has the nicest handwriting. They regularly drew like borders and flowers and stuff, like pretty stuff all around the side of their flip charts.

And, uh, I had a group where I had designated who would be the spokesperson when they came to report back to the group. And so the red preference group spent five minutes making sure that their designated spokesperson was comfortable being the spokesperson. It was just hilarious. 

[00:16:28] Rob: Yeah. 

[00:16:29] Brendon: and the yellow preference group, uh, which is the big picture, conceptual go fast kind of thinking.

I've had one group where there were six of them in the group and they all grabbed a marker and they just started all writing on the flip chart at the one time. And, and then they started wandering around to the other groups going, Oh, you should put this on, you should put that on. So, and then at the debrief is almost less about what's on the flip chart and more about what's happened in the activity.

And. Uh, how it kind of shows up for people, but it's, it's a fascinating little insight. And again, it makes it real for people, anyone that's been thinking to that point, Oh, this is just made up. It's not actually true. Yeah. Uh, they're like, Oh, actually there's something in this Brendan. Yeah. 

[00:17:13] Rob: And it's funny you should say that because we do a similar activity where we plan a party and so we actually tell people that we're breaking them up into their preferences, but we don't front load it with anything.

We just say, just jump in and plan a party. But the similar traits that you just described show up every single time. Yellow group's usually my favorite. Um, I've had a couple where, uh, they couldn't decide. Where they were gonna stand. They're like arguing with each other across the room. 'cause they were two quite large groups and they're like, come over to our side.

And they're like, no, we'll just go over here. Okay, let's just break into two groups. And the Blues and the Greens are looking at me and like, what are you gonna do? You're gonna jump in, you're gonna stop 'em. I'm like, let's just see how it plays out. And invariably it is the same each time. Like there are, there are strong themes.

Um, you can just about guarantee they're gonna show up. 

[00:18:02] Brendon: Yeah. It always makes me kind of laugh. Uh, how they show up for people. And then they have the ability to talk about it. Hey, that's not useful when you do that. Hey, it would be more useful if we did this instead without it being, being negative. So I, yeah, I reflect fondly on that training.

And the reason I did that training is we had a HBDI practitioner in the team I was working in that did it. And I was, skeptical. And then I opened it and I was like, Oh yeah, where's this been? This would have been helpful 10 years ago. 

[00:18:33] Rob: Yeah. 

[00:18:34] Brendon: I probably would have made some different decisions, uh, if I'd known this 10 years ago, but then I wouldn't be here having this done.

So 

[00:18:41] Rob: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I've, um, I've pretty much bought into every team since, uh, and, you know, even the company I'm working for now, Gurugan, we, uh, we do it for all new starters and we We've done it now, so I've only been at Gurugan for 11 months, uh, 10 months. Um, so we've done it once, we've just done it again a second time, and it's interesting each time you get something more out of it.

So every time a new starter comes in we'll do a little coaching session, a bit of feedback, tell them about their profile. Next time we do a quarterly or a six monthly, then we'll all jump in and do it together. Um, but there's just lots of fun as well. Like, it, it makes learning fun, and it makes learning about each other fun.

And like you said, perfectly before gives people a language which, you know, it's non confrontational and they can express how they're feeling or express others behaviors without saying, hey, you're being a jerk, um, which is great. And you can have a little bit of fun with it and people just become a little bit more accepting of others, which is fantastic.

[00:19:44] Brendon: Yeah. Yeah. So people are different. They're not difficult. More inherently difficult. Some people are just difficult. 

[00:19:52] Rob: I was gonna say, I've got a few. 

[00:19:54] Brendon: But more often than not, they're just different. And once you understand that, it's like, okay. Yeah. We can move through it. Yeah. Um, you said you started with mindfulness as a theme.

Why is, why is mindfulness important to you? 

[00:20:07] Rob: So mindfulness is something that came to me out of a necessity more than a preference. So when I was in the Air Force, I think even as a teenager, I struggled a little bit with what was happening in my mind. So if we hark back to the HPDI, very analytical, um, and I, I spend a lot of time in my head.

So, uh, I like to tell people I'm a recovering overthinker, but I'm lying. I'm basically in remission and I fall off the wagon every day. It's terrible. Um, but I spend a lot of time in my head and it. Unfortunately, if you do that, if you spend a lot of time ruminating, it can become a pretty dark place and you can have a lot of non productive thoughts.

So when I was in the Air Force, this is back in the late 90s, wasn't as welcoming perhaps as a place as it is today, or accepting even of things like meditation and mindfulness. So I start, I had heard about meditation and I was curious and I wanted to try it, but I didn't want anyone else to know about it.

I kind of felt that I would have been judged pretty heavily, uh, in that environment and it was probably more my own ego and my own biases that were, that were creating that thinking. Um, so I kind of formed a bit of a love hate relationship with mindfulness and meditation. Love the idea of it. I hated actually doing it.

So it wasn't actually until I read, uh, a book and spent a little bit more time learning about it that was like, oh, I, I'm not trying to blank my mind. And maybe I shouldn't be trying to sit for 20 minutes when I first start. Maybe I can just start with one minute. And that was enough for me to go, okay, I can kind of make this practice a little bit more what I need it to be.

So I've been practicing since the late nineties, um, but did it pretty much in quiet. Didn't tell anyone about it. And it wasn't until I joined the AFP and in that leadership development role. So about halfway through my, my time in the AFP that, We were talking, you know, in leadership courses, as you do, you sometimes talk about some pretty heavy stuff.

Resilience comes up, people's well being comes up, um, and if you think about a law enforcement context, it can be even darker and harder for people, for what they experience and what they go through. So I, I sort of started sharing a little bit and said, well, here's a couple of practices I do, um, you might find them useful as well.

I was amazed at the response. I was kind of expected to be laughed at or told to get back in my box or whatever, but people would, first of all, come up after the, you know, the lesson or after the session and say, hey, can you tell me a little bit more about that? Towards, you know, a couple of years in, people were like, oh, can you come and do that for my team?

So. I started talking about it, um, on leadership programs, but then also started doing it as mini workshops for, I've been really fortunate. I've done it with like, um, child protection teams, um, with forensics, with some of the special forces teams, uh, And each team is inherently different, um, but they all have that need.

And so what I tried to do was take the mindfulness concepts that I knew about and reframe them in a way that was, you know, no fluff, if you like. So, um, There's nothing wrong with the fluff. There's nothing wrong with, you know, chanting, singing bowls, whatever you do for your mindfulness practice. It's fantastic.

It's great. It's just not my kind of mindfulness. So I kind of stripped it out a little bit of mindfulness for beginners, if you like. Um, and I, As I do, again, my over analytical mind, um, put together all these notes on what mindfulness was, how it could help people, different practices that, you know, you could do in a law enforcement context, in a defense context, and the more I got to it, the notes just kept piling up, and they just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

And again, my lovely wife said to me, you know, you should write a book, like you've got enough content there, like it's, it's pretty, it's almost full. Um, and I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I should probably do that. So, um, so yes, I wrote a book, uh, which I had to rebrand in the end because I used a word in the title that, uh, I won't say here, but it was around the time of that Mark Manson book.

Um, I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about. So anyway, uh, rebranded about a year or two ago. It was getting uncomfortable when people were mentioning it, when I was doing like a keynote and people were saying, Oh, and here's the no, you know, whatever guide to mindful leadership. And I'm like, Oh, I don't really, that doesn't feel comfortable.

So, so I rebranded the book to, um, the mindful leadership blueprint. Um, and again, it was around. I could see there was a need for people who, who needed mindfulness or who would benefit from the practice, um, but weren't necessarily willing to look at it because it, it had a stigma around it. So, uh, yeah, so just sort of slowly introduced it to the AFB and then, um, have talked a lot about it, um, since then.

[00:25:03] Brendon: What's the, um, benefits, the wrong word, um. You can say benefits. I'm okay with that. It's not quite the question I want to ask, but I'm overthinking my question. I mean, my head now, I'm going to get out of my head. Just go with, with what. Exactly. I'm rubbing off 

[00:25:20] Rob: on you. 

[00:25:21] Brendon: Like, what's, what's your favorite mindfulness activity and what benefits do you see from it for yourself, others, teams, kind of whatever makes sense to answer that question.

[00:25:33] Rob: Yeah, it's a great question. And there's, there are so many different activities, um, that I really like doing. Um, probably the easiest one and where I usually start with people is STOP. Um, STOP's an acronym for stop, take a breath. Observe and proceed. So what I get people to do is if they have a moment and they can feel that the the monkey mind, as I like to call it, is chattering away, just to stop themselves, just to take a nice deep breath and really observe what's going on and As people get better at this, they can start to notice the tension.

They can notice that they're holding it in their shoulders, that their, their hands are balled up in fists, that their brains just buzzing because there's so much going on. And just sitting there for a second lowers the stress response, lowers the cortisol, and people can just, you know, usually they stick with it for more than one breath.

Um, And then when they're ready, they can just jump back into whatever activity they, they're doing. So for me, mindfulness is that first step, is that self awareness. It's picking when you've gone down a rabbit hole, when things aren't going particularly well, and you need to just stop yourself and just take that moment to, to readjust and recalibrate.

There you 

[00:26:50] Brendon: go. And you've, uh, eloquently described what I just did then. Oh, beautifully. The question I want, why this isn't landing properly, just stop, it'll be alright, remember to breathe. That, you know, oxygen's helpful, isn't it? 

[00:27:02] Rob: Oh, absolutely. 

[00:27:04] Brendon: Yeah, and then just call it out. Like, just observe what's happening.

I find that I'm doing more and more of that. And I notice that I'm in my head, or I notice that I'm foggy, or I notice that my fists are balled up, or my shoulders are tired, or it's in my chest, or whatever. What's happening for you? Like, kind of throw it across the table and people Yeah, I've got that too.

Like, oh good, it's not Maybe it's not all my stuff, it's kind of our stuff and we can deal with it together. 

[00:27:31] Rob: Yeah. Well, and it's funny when I wrote the book, it was just a group of practices that I was, because not everyone resonates with the, the same practice. So, but there's so many different ways you can incorporate mindfulness into your leadership, into your daily life.

So I kind of, um, uh, modeled it on, uh, John Carson's book, uh, Don't Sweat the Small Stuff. So. really small chapters. That's how my brain works. I don't like going into too much depth. Um, but really get to the point of it quickly and allows people to say, yeah, I like that activity. I'm going to do that. No, I don't like that one.

That's fine. You don't have to do that one, but find what works for you and find a way that you can, if you can just pause a couple of times during the day, what you find is you don't end the day. Wanting to crash, wanting to go, that's it, I just need to, you know, in my case head to the man cave and just be left alone for a little while, um, or some people just head to the couch, grab the remote, or grab their phone, whatever.

Um, if you can just take pauses throughout the day and mindfully reset. You'll find at the end of the day, you just don't have that same crash and it's a little bit more sustainable. 

[00:28:37] Brendon: Yeah. Are you finding in your workshops, because I am, so it's a little bit loaded, um, that people are using those, those opportunities to go to a workshop and as a, almost a mindfulness practice in and of themselves.

And maybe I should explain that a bit more. I'm seeing a lot of people show up to workshops at the moment. and they are tired and you sort of, I'm facilitating away and we're 20 minutes in or whatever. And I look up and I've got a lot of people like, you know, sort of trying to hold their eyes open. And early on, I'd be worried that my content wasn't good, but I have checked and the content is fine and the delivery is good.

So, but now I just turn the slides off and I sort of say, okay, I'm, I'm picking this up in the room. How are we all? And I've had multiple people say, we just find it really relaxing to be here in the space you create, Brendan, and to kind of just be who we are and not need to mask it up or pretend that something else is going on.

And then we can talk about that. and what's happening for them and how, what they need to do to look after themselves. Are you seeing that happen in your workshops? 

[00:29:52] Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, it's really interesting because we've been talking a bit on the podcast about it as well, particularly around, um, burnouts, burnout and, um, sustainable leadership.

So a lot of people are feeling tired. Uh, unusually so. And I guess it's this time of year as well, right? So, everyone's been on the march for a while. But we've also just come out of a global pandemic a couple of years back. Um, people are still recovering. We're finding the new ways of work. Um, you know, everyone's shifted to remote.

then some people started coming back into the office. Now we're hearing some organizations are making people come back in the office full time. Uh, and so people I think are, again, as it always happens, doing more with less. Um, and so they find themselves getting tired and getting, and for some people, yes, we can, we can use the term burnout.

Um, but for others, it's just, I just need a break and it's finding the time wherever they can. And sometimes you're right. A workshop is a great way to. Get out of the office. Um, it can be quite difficult. rejuvenate, rejuvenating, you know, like regenerating, um, to just spend some time with a team or even some people you don't even know, and just think about something else for a while, because we tend to get those blinkers on, right?

And we're always, we're focused on the job. We're focused on the task. And we've got the milestones we know when what's coming up next. And we know if we just do this one little push that we're going to get to that next milestone, not knowing it's a false hill, and that we get to the top of the hill, and there's another hill there.

So you might get a short break if you're lucky. If not, you're marching up the hill again. Um, so I, I have noticed that a lot, uh, particularly in the last year. Yeah, I don't know if it's something that hopefully we're going to get on top of soon, um, or if this is here to stay and we just need to, to manage a little bit better.

So it's interesting. 

[00:31:48] Brendon: Yeah, I think it seems to be starting earlier this year than it did last year as well. People were saying kind of mid October, I'm done. It's a lot of year in front of us. How do we put some sustainability, as you say, in around this? If we're done already in October. 

[00:32:06] Rob: And that's a great word, sustainability.

And one of my guests, Joe Wagstaff, talked about this. And then it's kind of like my brain is just locked onto sustainable leadership. And it's something now that I'm hearing more and more. And something that I'm even talking about more and more. Because, Again, we're kind of getting into that sprint mentality.

Like, we've just got to, we've just got to clear this, we've just got to get this done, we've just got to reach this milestone. But leadership is not a sprint. It's a marathon. Um, and you've got to build some ebbs and flows in there. You've got to build some time to rejuvenate, to, you know, to recalibrate before you then set off on the next hill, onto that next charge.

So teams really, and individuals, really need to find a way. What's those practices that I can build in, even on a daily basis, but also weekly, monthly? What are those rituals that you want to build in that will mean it is potentially a little bit more sustainable? That I'm not going to collapse in a heap?

And talking to a couple of guests again, who've been through burnout, And it's very hard to come back from. It's, it's not a, I'll take two weeks off and I'll be right. It's, it has long term ramifications for some people. It can be an ongoing thing that they have to suffer through for the rest of their lives.

So we really need to look after ourselves. 

[00:33:28] Brendon: Yeah. And false economy, if we just, you know, push through, drive harder, run more, do more, work later. Most organizations that I imagine people work in, like there's not an end point. It's like, oh, well, that's all the legislation we need created for the rest of the, um, rest of time.

So we're just going to shut that department now. We don't need it anymore. It's never going to happen. 

[00:33:50] Rob: No, that's right. 

[00:33:51] Brendon: I said that once to a group and I think I broke them. It took them a while to kind of process that and things. They were like, oh, well, hang on then. Because it was kind of that mindset of do more, do more, do more, do more, and then it'll be done.

I'm like, it'll never be done. There's just more work coming. So make sure you're ready for the more work or no one will be here to do it. Exactly. 

[00:34:13] Rob: And, and it's kind of cliche, but organizations often say that people are the greatest asset, but it is so true. But from an individual perspective, you are the greatest asset to yourself, to your family, to your loved ones.

You'll get replaced at work. And I've seen this happen where people have left the work or the environment for people to do. a number of different reasons. It's like a hand in a bucket of water. You take the hand out and the water just sort of, you know, is displaced and then it just goes back where it was.

But you can't do that for your family. You can't do that for the people that you care about and your loved ones. So, you've really got to protect the asset and you are the asset. So, um, uh, Um, find ways to do that, find ways that are sustainable, that work for you. Again, it's not about doing cold plunges and um, uh, you know, long weekend retreats or whatever.

If you don't want to do cold plunges, don't do cold plunges. Like, find the thing that rejuvenates and regenerates you and just keep doing that. I 

[00:35:13] Brendon: like it. I mean, make it sustainable. We want our mindfulness practices to be sustainable as well, right? 

[00:35:21] Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, again, it's, it's about people, and this is probably a really good, and I'm not sure when you're going to post this, but it's a good time of year at the end of the year, or the start of a new year, to think about what happened last year and how did I go?

Was it sustainable? Is it sustainable moving forward? What are some things and I usually talk when I talk about this in workshops, I say just start with one thing. Don't say, you know, particularly you see it at New Year's resolutions, right? The gym is the fullest in January. By February, it's starting to peter off.

By March, it's back to, you know, 30 percent capacity or whatever. Um, pick one or two things, tops, and focus on those, embed those as a practice and see how it goes. And then, you know, once you've got them, you know, built in, then try to do something else as well, then add something else in. 

[00:36:12] Brendon: Yeah, I'm keen to get people reflecting on, and, you know, timing is a, when does this land, or, and what have you, but, um, I'm kind of like, what are the highlights from the previous year?

So, what are you taking out of 2024? Because if you ask me what my highlights were from 2023, I haven't thought about that. I'd struggle to articulate what they were. You know, some stuff happened, and I had a great year. Can't tell you what they are. Uh, and then, to your point exactly, what, what out of 2024 do you want to take into 2025?

And what do you want to leave behind? What do you kind of want to put down and say, well, I'm not doing that anymore because that's not actually that helpful for me. 

[00:37:02] Rob: Yeah. It's funny. You just reminded me. I used to keep a little journal. Um, and at the end of each year I would write down like the top 10 things I did that year.

Cause you do, you kind of forget after a while. When was it that I went overseas on that holiday? When was it that I had that life changing moment on top of that hill? Whatever. Um, I've just reflected that I stopped doing that during COVID and it's now somewhere, uh, on a shelf gathering dust. So I might, uh, might take that out again, mate.

And I think it's time to, to start doing that again. 

[00:37:34] Brendon: The coach me wants to go, just question the might, might take that out. What would you need to take that, or would take that out? 

[00:37:40] Rob: Sorry, Brandon. Um, I was actually just looking over there to see if I could see it. I'm like, can I reach it? No, I can't. So, I will get it out.

Thank you. I commit to you, right now, that I'm going to do this. Uh, as soon as we get off the call. 

[00:37:54] Brendon: Lovely, lovely. Because it's been interesting kind of reflecting back for myself on what have I done? I've done some cool stuff. That was fun. And not all professional stuff, like some family stuff, some friends stuff, some kind of individual stuff, some study, some work, like all avenues to be considered.

But I hope that that will benefit. I did one year and I will do again, uh, put together for my boys kind of a annual. hardcover photo print book of kind of things that we did throughout the year, like little photos. 

[00:38:32] Rob: Yeah. 

[00:38:33] Brendon: And so they have one book each, but I will complete the set for them so that they can have, you know, instead of a photo, because otherwise photos just live in our phone and we never look at them or kind of can't find them or what have you.

It's really interesting. They get it out quite often and they reflect, Oh, remember when we did this? Remember when we did that? So yeah, so there's something in that. So I'm encouraging adults to do that for themselves as well and be okay with. with reflecting and working out what their highlights are.

[00:39:05] Rob: Yeah, two points out of that. The first one is well done on using the will, I will do that, uh, in your language. Well done. I will expect a follow up to let me know when that's finished. Um, and the other one is, uh, and this is about gratitude, right? And this is something that I, I, I, I sort of try and embed with my kids to try and look for the positive because our brains have a negativity bias.

So because of the way we've evolved over time, Growing up on the savannah, rustling the bushes, isn't likely to be a cute little puppy dog, um, just wanting to say hello. It's likely to be something that's going to kill you, right? So, we've formed this brain where we're always on the lookout for the bad things.

And I think, If we can just focus a little bit more on the positive and be grateful for what it is we have. And this is why, you know, keeping a journal of what you've done over the year to look back and go, I have done some pretty cool stuff over that year. Yeah, it felt hard, but now that I remember I did this, this, and this.

That was fantastic. So, um, gratitude practice is a huge part of my life. I do it every morning when I wake up, uh, every morning when I go to, sorry, every night when I go to bed. And it's even something I do with my, my kids. So my youngest, when I pick him up from school, um, it's tell me the top three things about your day.

And we start there, because I know there are some, always some things that he's going to tell me about that, you know, this person did this or this teacher or, you know, art got cancelled or whatever. So, what were the three best things about your day? And it's just a great place to start in trying to get him looking for the positive.

Because when we look for the positive, we start seeing it more. We notice it more. It becomes something that we're on the lookout for and we just train the mind to look for it more. 

[00:40:49] Brendon: Yeah, I'm gonna have to have three things. Dad's gonna ask me that question. I better have three things to tell him. 

[00:40:54] Rob: Yeah.

Well, he gets it. So we get in the car now and close the door and it's like, tell me about your three things. Uh, like we're both trying to race each other to see who goes first or whatever. So, and sometimes it can be hard. Like you can just be, well, it's just another day, really. And it doesn't have to be big things.

It doesn't have to be, won this contract, you know, delivered this workshop, got a standing ovation, whatever it is. It can just be, you know what, I got to go out for a walk at morning tea time, and there was a couple of birds playing on the ground, it was really cute. Like, it can be something really simple.

Just looking out for it makes a huge difference. I 

[00:41:30] Brendon: like that. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, seven questions to close us, just rapid fire. First thing that comes to mind, uh, just jump in with it. So the first question is Rob, what fulfills you? 

[00:41:47] Rob: I think if I go back to that, um, mission statement, I'm, I kind of feel like my mission in life is to try and help people.

be the best version of themselves. And when I do that, it lights me up. So answer 1A and answer 1B is my family. 

[00:42:04] Brendon: And what frustrates you? 

[00:42:06] Rob: Uh, sometimes a lack of progress, sometimes too many options, sometimes not being able to create the impact that I want.

[00:42:20] Brendon: And if you could recommend one book beyond the mindful leadership blueprint that everyone should read, what would it be? 

[00:42:29] Rob: Um, I spend a lot of time with my head in a book, so There are so many. The one that comes to mind because I'm currently reading is by Pema Chodron. Um, she's a, a nun, monk type lady. Um, but I always read one fiction and one non fiction because when I'm trying to sleep, I can't read a fiction.

But yeah, so, uh, but the other one would be Don't Sweat the Small Stuff. It's changed my life, really. So, um, nice, easy, digestible. 

[00:43:03] Brendon: What do you most admire in those you work with?

[00:43:08] Rob: I think I look for diversity in the people that I work with. I think, and again, reflecting on the HPDI and my own preferences, I'm amazed by other people's different ways of thinking, the way they do things, um, and their capabilities, not even just preference, like their capabilities, the things that they can do, and I go, I wish I could do that.

Like, that's, that's really cool. Um, Yeah, so I love the diversity, I love the fact that I get to work with some amazing creative people. 

[00:43:39] Brendon: What's your favourite question? 

[00:43:42] Rob: What's your favourite question? Yeah, like coaching? That's my favourite question. I like it, yeah. No, well look, I sometimes get into a little bit of a habit where I say, tell me more about that.

Um, and it's okay if it's used once or twice, but you know, you can't use it on the same group more than once or the same counterpart. So, uh, I find different ways of saying, let's dive into that a little bit more, shall we? So, but yeah, tell me more about that. 

[00:44:11] Brendon: And if you didn't do what you are doing, what would you do?

I 

[00:44:15] Rob: wanted to be a truck driver as a kid. Uh, that was, and I think it was from BJ and the Bear. Uh, there was a guy driving around with a monkey on, like, and he was driving a truck. Uh, I, I often am asking myself, what am I going to do when I grow up? Uh, I'm in my 40s now and I've really got to stop asking that question.

So I'm pretty happy with what I, what it is that I do, what I would be doing otherwise. I don't know. I've got lots of different interests. So AI, um, I'm fascinated by wellbeing, so I'd love to go into the medical side of it. Uh, I was going to be an accountant at one stage. I was going to go to uni and study accountancy, but joined the Air Force instead.

Lots of different avenues, mate. 

[00:44:55] Brendon: And if you could tell your younger self anything, what would you be saying to your younger self? 

[00:45:02] Rob: It's funny because I get to do this just about every day, having two young men in the house. I'm constantly, oh, it's so funny. They, they say to me, Dad, this is not a life lesson.

This is not that time. And it's, it's like, yes, it is. This is a teachable moment. Like, just let me go. Um, but the one I had the other day was, um, back yourself, have a little bit more confidence. Most people don't care what it is you're doing or really are so sort of, you know, in their own minds, they're not worried about you.

So just try and be a little bit more confident and, um, put yourself out there. 

[00:45:40] Brendon: I always struggle not to respond to people's answers in those questions, because there's conversations, you know, in just those answers, we could go on. Uh, but I will share that you reminded me of, uh, there's a Bluey episode where they go for ice cream and, um, the Bluey and her sister Bingo are trying to negotiate how they can have a lick of each other's ice cream and it be fair and reasonable and, um, what order they're going to go in.

Um, and. Of course the ice creams melt, and the dad bandit is trying to explain to them why they should have just enjoyed their ice cream. And Bluey says, I'm pretty sure it's Bluey, um, I don't want a life lesson, I just want an ice cream, and so 

[00:46:22] Rob: He's bandit trying to be all mindful as well, like, just be in the moment, just be zen, be happy with your ice cream.

Well, uh, but what a great lesson, right? I think we could all learn something from that for sure. 

[00:46:32] Brendon: There's so many good moments in that show. But anyway, that's a conversation for another day. Thanks for joining me. Really enjoyed the chat. Got lots out of it and, um, excited to get it out there and shared. So we'll do that shortly.

[00:46:45] Rob: Thanks for having me, mate. And thanks for all the work you're doing with this podcast. Uh, I really enjoy listening to it and I know it's helping a lot of people. So well done, mate. Thank you, 

[00:46:54] Brendon: Rob. That means a lot.