Brendon answers your questions about APS recruitment

Over the last 10 years, coach, facilitator and coach supervisor Brendon Le Lievre has worked with hundreds of people navigating APS recruitment. Those conversations eventually became his book, The APS Recruitment Game.

In this episode, Brendon answers some of the questions he has been asked most often since publishing the book and shares the patterns he has observed from years of coaching, interview preparation and recruitment support.

Topics include:

• Why he wrote The APS Recruitment Game
• Why capable people often struggle with recruitment
• Common mistakes in applications and interviews
• What panels are really looking for
• How to use the STAR framework more effectively
• Why confidence and self-awareness matter
• The balance between "I" and "we" when describing your work
• The five career moves beyond promotion
• The one message Brendon hopes readers take away from the book

Whether you are applying for your first APS role, seeking promotion, supporting others through recruitment, or simply interested in careers and leadership, this episode offers practical ideas to help you play the game more effectively.

The APS Recruitment Game is available in paperback and Kindle formats through Amazon - https://amzn.asia/d/0ibOhBDt.

Free resources to help you through the APS recruitement process are also available from - apsrecruitmentgame.com.au

Transcript

Speaker: 0:08

Hello, and welcome to the Coach Conversations podcast. I'm Brendan Le Lievre, and this episode's a little bit different. Uh, over the last few years, in addition to my work as a coach, facilitator, and coach supervisor, I have done a lot of work with people navigating public service recruitment. I've worked with people applying for their first role, uh, right up to experienced public servants looking for promotion into the executive level or senior executive level. And often what I find I'm needing to do there is help them make sense of a process that can feel a bit confusing or frustrating, and is one that they care about a lot because they want to get a job at the end of it. Ultimately, what I've done is capture my insights from those conversations and my own work as a scribe to write a book called "The APS Recruitment Game." And it's, to be honest with you, not the book I thought I'd write if I wrote a book, but it's the one I have written. Because I kept seeing these same themes emerge, and I saw capable people doubting themselves after unsuccessful applications, people who are excellent at their jobs, uh, struggling to explain their value, and people working incredibly hard but not having a clear strategy for what next in recruitment. And I was disappointed to see people interpreting rejection from a job application process as a verdict on their worth rather than feedback from the process. Since publishing, I've been asked lots of different questions by different people, and I thought I might just sit down and record a bit of a episode, conversation with myself, uh, about both the content of the book and the writing of the book. And some of the patterns and, and challenges that I've found. So if you're applying for roles, if you're supporting people applying for roles, or you're just interested in careers and leadership, uh, hopefully there'll be something useful in this for you. So let's get into it. And the first question that I get asked, and get asked quite a lot, um, which I've kind of already covered but we'll, we'll jump through again, is why did I write "The APS Recruitment Game"? And the reason I decided to write that book, uh, is because that, uh, in my experience as a scribe and as a coach, um, I saw people trying to play the game and they don't know the rules. And if you don't know the rules, it's gonna be incredibly hard to play the game successfully. So you wouldn't play Monopoly with a group of friends without establishing what their house rules are. You, you wouldn't play Uno without establishing can you put a draw two on a draw two? Can you put a draw four on two draw twos or not? Uh, and yet people do that in recruitment all the time. They don't know the rules and they're trying to play the game, and then they get frustrated when the game doesn't work for them. And as we see an increased use in AI, both by candidates and recruiting organizations, the rules are becoming clearer and more established because the systems are doing some of the work in the background that humans would normally do I also think that there are frustrations people have with the game and different parts of it. I'm not a huge fan of responding to selection criteria. Much prefer to interview, and people are the same or different. But spending a lot of energy getting frustrated about the process that we can't control is not going to help us to present calmly and confidently in, in that process and put the best version of ourselves forward. So I thought if I could try and capture some of the rules and some of the guidelines around what panels are actually looking for in the process and make that more readily available to people, then more people would be able to play the game successfully, and then the process would stop, um, excluding good quality people And, and that is because I think the public service needs as many good quality people as it can get. That being said, I think the process is as good as it can be, and while there's some tinkering around the edges, uh, that could be done, it, it's, it's pretty good. But we can't control it anyway, so I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about, "I don't like this bit and that bit could be better." The agencies are gonna use the process they use. We just need to learn how to engage with them and engage with them more strongly. So that, that's the reason for the book. And it covers everything from what your first… your next career move should be, how do you work out whether a job's even right for you How do you talk to the contact officer? How do you write your selection criteria? How do you write your resume? How do you prep well for an interview? How do you set yourself up for success in an interview? How do you use your referee report? And, and how do you reflect after all of that, uh, irrespective of outcome on what went well? So that's, that's the reason for the book Next question that I get asked quite a bit, and I've just got a list of them on the background here, so I'm just having a look at them. Uh, what were, was-- What was I noticing repeatedly in my coaching conversations that told me this book needed to exist? And one of the things in particular that I noticed in, in interview preparation conversations I was having is people would talk fluently, capably easily when we were just talking, and then I'd say to them, "Ah, I wanna ask you an interview question now." And they'd say, "I don't know how to answer that. I don't know how to talk anymore. I've forgotten. I can't put a sentence together." And nothing had changed. Same two people, same location, same system of conversation. The only thing that had happened is I'd shifted from conversation into tell me why you want the job And that is something that we need to get better at And I think if we get out of guesswork and we start to look at structure and framework, that makes life a lot easier for us. I think we wanna be well-prepared but not scripted, and I think we want to be flexible, um, in the way we respond to questions but have some foundation to launch from And I think lots of people struggle with recruitment 'cause they feel like they're being judged and assessed reasonably. And, uh, I find it useful to think of that conversation as a conversation and a two-way conversation because you are assessing the panel as much as they're assessing you. You are deciding whether you want to join this organization as much as they are deciding whether they want you to join it. And you could get to the end of the process and be offered a job and say, "No, thank you, I don't want it," and walk away because of something you've seen in the process. So, uh, that can help kind of balance the table a little bit. Uh Hmm. What do people misunderstand most about APS recruitment? Uh, they, they commonly misunderstand that the panel don't want them to change who they are. They just want them to talk about who they are, and they need to demonstrate who they are and what they've done in the way they do that throughout the process. And one of the challenges that many people face is, "I wasn't the only one that did it, Brendan, I don't wanna talk like I did everything." And so they fall into this habit trap of saying, "We did, and we did, and we did." And that might be true, but my reflection point for them is always the group, the team, your manager, your stakeholders, your peers, your colleagues, don't do what they do in isolation. You did something to set them up for success. So what is that thing that you did first? Or you don't do things in isolation. After they did their thing, what did you do to create the good outcome? And I refer to that as the seesaw,'cause it tips back and forth like a seesaw at a kid's playground. Um, it's boring if one side is always down and one side is always up. It flows better, works better if both sides get a go. And so if you catch yourself writing or saying "I" or "we" too much, then you can just tilt the seesaw and, and jump into the opposite one. So that might sound like, uh, I gave the direction to the team, and the team were able to perform, or the team identified this risk and brought it to me, and I led the process to assess and manage it, control it. Um, I identified that a stakeholder had been left out of a original engagement. I spoke with them. They provided their feedback. I was able to include it in the document. Like, just kinda tilting back and forth between the two is a really useful way to explore what it is that you have actually done Really common for me to get asked as well a com- a version of what patterns do you see in unsuccessful applications or what helps, uh, s- strong applications be created? It's clunky, but you get what I mean. What do people do that reduces the effectiveness of their application? What can they do to increase the effectiveness of it? And, uh, one of the things that I would suggest people do when they are writing their applications or talking about examples at interview is make sure that they are using language that aligns with the level that they are applying for and Some self-assessments against work level standards or in particular the integrated leadership system, ILS, can be a good way to do that. Uh, I think people often downplay what they have actually done. So they will have led or managed or delivered, and they will say, "I contributed to, I supported, I assisted with." And it's just weaker language and particularly as they're applying for more senior levels, then they're not gonna… They're not strengthening their application by doing that. The other thing I see people do is aligning their skills, knowledge, and experience very clearly with the desired or required attributes of the role. So if stakeholder engagement is the first, project management is the second, communicates with others well is the third, you provide your examples in that order rather than, "Well, my communication skills are my best ones, so I'm gonna put them up first." Just help the panel, remembering that the panel are going to be looking at anywhere from 50 to 800 plus applications. They're gonna wanna move through them pretty quickly 'cause they have jobs that they need to do as well as this recruitment. They're, uh, usually a resource down, so they have more work than they would normally do. That's why they're recruiting. And you wanna just reduce any friction that there might be for the panel, uh, progressing you to the next stage. So just put it there really clearly and make sure you follow the instructions for how to submit your application. So if it says use Arial, you use Arial as a font, even if it's not your favorite. Uh, if it says in the application that you put your name in the bottom of each page, make sure it's there. I have seen panels go through, uh, stacks of applications and pull out the ones that haven't had that done when that's in the instructions. So just stay in the process as long as you can by playing by the rules, especially when they're stated in that way. Just gonna have a look here at the next question Uh, what makes a compelling STAR example? People ask about that all the time as well. And I used to find in my scribing work, uh, the panel would say, "We want you to use the STAR model. Are you familiar with that?" People would nod and then proceed to not use it. So if you're not familiar with it, uh, the STAR model stands for situation, what was happening in the environment; task, what was it you were identified you needed to do or asked to do; action, that's where the seesaw comes in; result, what happened as a result of your efforts in the way you went about your work. And you need to identify all four of those things. People usually forget one. I regularly forget to talk about result when I go to interview, and so STAR helps me make sure I land that. I think what can happen is people get caught up in task, and they talk about the complexity of the task without necessarily focusing on what the question was that the panel asked them to answer I also note that, uh, in action people don't talk about what they've done, so kind of I versus we seesaw. And often they say, "Well, I just do my job. I don't know what I do, I just do my job." That's not gonna get you through an interview process, so you need to spend some time reflecting on the how you do your job. Uh, be- just because it's easy for you doesn't mean it's easy for everyone. You do things in your way. It's important that you know how to speak about what it is that you do. Get some feedback from other people about what do you notice when the stakes are really high? How do I perform? Or what… If there is a problem that you would bring me to solve, what would that problem be? What are the things you think of me, um, about for? And so once you've done your STAR example, the opportunity comes to extend it, uh, using what I refer to as STAR Plus, and that's so you don't have to remember another acronym. But you might add a STAR Plus element, not all of them, just one, to the end of your STAR example to strengthen it up. So the STAR Plus elements are strategic impact. Why does what you just spoke about matter to the team, branch, division, organization? Thinking. What were the options you considered, or what knowledge did you draw on to decide your way forward in that process? Applicability. So if you share an example from a different organizational team or a different job role, don't make the panel guess how that example is relevant to the role you're applying for. Tell them, "And in this role, I would apply the skills I just shared in this way." And the R is a reflection. And again, you definitely don't want to do this one all the time because it makes it sound like you doubt yourself. But occasionally it's useful to go, "If faced with a similar situation again, I would do this, that, or the other So, um, situation, task, action, result, strategic impact, thinking, applicability, reflection is a good way to strengthen those answers up What do I hope people experience while reading this book? I hope that it gives people more confidence whether they're in the public service already or not to apply for jobs that they would be good at. I hope it stops people from self-selecting out of processes 'cause m-maybe they don't meet all the desired re-criteria, and that's not always a requirement, so make sure you check about that. I hope it helps people to put stronger applications forward. I hope it results in higher qualica-quality candidates being in the process. That's what I hope, um, happens as a result of the book. I think there are tips and tricks in there for people of all public service levels, experiences, and sometimes it's only gonna take one thing to take you from being a suitable candidate to a highly suitable or a preferred candidate, and I'm hoping that it helps more people to find their way through that process. People have said, "There's a moral challenge in teaching people how to interview and go through recruitment, Brendan. It means that the best person at interviewing and recruiting gets the job, not the best person for the job." And I'd counter that potentially is already happening. Uh, what the book does is helps people who are the best person for the job go through recruitment the best so that they end up with the job If someone could take away one message from the APS recruitment game, what would that message be? I think it comes back to you don't have to change who you are to navigate recruitment. You just have to change the way you think about and talk about yourself. I think people should be proud of what they have done. Uh, I think people should seek to be adequately compensated for the skills, knowledge, and experience that they bring to organizations. And I think people should be more comfortable putting themselves into processes and performing well in recruitment processes to find their next job. Uh, my theory is the vast majority of us are not yet in the job that we're going to retire from, and so we have at least one more job interview to get to People say, "I don't like going to job interviews, Brendan, and I don't like recruitment, Brendan." I hear you. The way to reduce the number you go to is to get better at applying, because once you get a new job, you can pause for a while and not have to go anymore. And so I think Stepping into that space with intention, practicing and preparing to interview well is going to result in a better outcome for you and for the organization. So please do that, um, as we work through it People also have asked Does, does every move have to be up? Is it only for people seeking promotion? And I would say no, it is not just for that, given we're not in the job we're going to retire in. There's, in my opinion, five moves that I've come up with or experienced myself with regards to career, and one of them, of course, is promotion. Promotion is there. It's desirable for the right reasons and, and something to aspire to for many of us. It's not the only move, but… And so the other moves can be to move sideways and broaden your skill base. Really useful at, particularly at early stages in your career, but not impossible to do later in your career to gain a broad set of skills. You could move backwards and, uh, you… I've done that a couple of times in my career to explore either new fields or new opportunities or, uh, things that I had less experience in but knew I could be good at. You could intentionally pause in your career, and the intentional bit is important there. I don't want people to sit in careers and then turn around in, in whatever period of time and say, "Where did everyone else go, and why am I still here?" If you're going to pause, be intentional, set a reminder to review in an appropriate period of time to check why you are still in that job and why you aren't actively seeking other opportunities, if that's where you find yourself. And the fifth move is complete transformation. So, uh, s-start a completely new role or experience. You know, buy a coffee van or sell candles at the market or, um… I don't know. I need some better examples for transformation. If you've got some good examples about career transformation, can you please let me know what they are? But, uh, you get the point. And so I think being aware of what stage we're in, what move we're aspiring to, and then that helps us to perform better in the process 'cause we can better explain who we are and what we're trying to achieve in our career. And most of us have a lot of career left in front of us, and so let's play the game well. Let's find jobs that are fulfilling as well as rewarding, and let's learn how to talk about ourselves and what we have done in a better way throughout that process. I'm interested to know which, uh, question has been… and answer has been of most interest to you. Uh, if you have other questions or answers, please let me know what they are, and I will do another similar recording in a c- appropriate period of time. Uh, and if you would like to get the book, it is available on Amazon fo- both as a softco- uh, cover and a Kindle version. And if you've got any questions, reach out. I'd love to hear from you Good luck playing the game