Welcome to this week’s Intangible Balance Sheet. This week Chris Winkler joins us to share his experiences growing up in Indiana, working on Wall Street and founding Ivory Investment Management. It’s a unique story that is full of formative life lessons.
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JOSH KLOOZ, CFP®, MBA
WEALTH ADVISOR
Phone 281.719.0036
Text 281.699.8691
Fax 281.719.0156
jklooz@carsonwealth.com
1780 Hughes Landing | Suite 570
The Woodlands, TX 77380
Music by bensound.com
Welcome to this week’s Intangible Balance Sheet. This week Chris Winkler joins us to share his experiences growing up in Indiana, working on Wall Street and founding Ivory Investment Management. It’s a unique story that is full of formative life lessons.
Please check out and subscribe to my Youtube Channel and Newsletter!
JOSH KLOOZ, CFP®, MBA
WEALTH ADVISOR
Phone 281.719.0036
Text 281.699.8691
Fax 281.719.0156
jklooz@carsonwealth.com
1780 Hughes Landing | Suite 570
The Woodlands, TX 77380
Music by bensound.com
Joshua Klooz 0:01
Most people are aware of their own financial balance sheet. As soon as we buy our first car or house, we become aware of it. If you're of a certain personality type, you may track it quite a bit. But I'd submit to you that we're also unconsciously aware of another balance sheet. And this one is sometimes tricky to measure and even harder to manage. Sometimes we often find it hard to put into words, but it's real nonetheless. I call this our intangible balance sheet. What I mean by this are those life principles, experiences, memories and stories, then, given any amount of money, we wouldn't drain. They're the memories that bring tears of joy to our faces, because we simply can't imagine life without them. We feel fortunate to have had them. It could be our first jobs, proposals, wedding days, burrs, struggles, anxieties, or fears, and maybe even some hindsight. It's all those things that melt into a memory that bring a distance stare to our face, and maybe even a smile.
We feel lucky to have had them because they're what has made us us. So that's what I'm talking about when I talk about the intangible balance sheet. It's those moments in life that may be financially irrational, but which are indispensable parts of who we are. So these episodes are focused on the stories that bring us joy, happiness, fulfillment, and ultimately, may hold necessary keys that will direct the future for our family, friends, and maybe even neighbors. So listen in with us as we discover some of those stories that are meaningful to our guests. And maybe you'll even uncover hidden value on your own intangible balance sheet.
Welcome to the wisdom wealth Podcast. I'm Josh Klooz, the senior wealth planner for Carson wealth here in The Woodlands, Texas and this is an intangible balance sheet episode. And today I have the pleasure of speaking with Chris Winkler. Chris, I have known for almost five years now. But really excited to dive into the stories that are held on his intangible balance sheet. And I'm sure there's several that I have I'm not aware of as well. But welcome to the podcast, Chris.
Christopher Winkler 2:17
Thank you, Josh. Good to be here.
Joshua Klooz 2:20
Pleasure is ours. And so to set the table, the intangible balance sheet is focused on those things, that those ideas, those principles, and those stories that we wouldn't trade for any amount of monetary compensation because they've made us who we are. You know, it could be that that last ice cream cone that you remember that you had with your grandmother, it could be your your first boss, things of that nature. But fundamentally, there are those things that we believe are eternal because we pass them on and they they get in turn passed on to another generation and passed on to another generation. And they serve us well. And so typically, how we start out is is biographical Chris. And so if you could tell us a little bit more about your upbringing and the community that you you grew up in? That would be a good jumping off point.
Christopher Winkler 3:13
Okay, sure. So I grew up in a little town called Beech Grove, Indiana, which was a suburb of Indianapolis. I think the population at the time was about 13,000. It was interesting in that it's a suburb that is surrounded by Indianapolis, but it's its own city. So it's incorporated and has its own mayor, police force, all that good stuff. So the schools were independent of the Indianapolis School District. Not real clear why my parents decided to live there. But that's what they picked and bought a house there. So I grew up there, middle middle income community. And I had one sister I grew up with an older sister, and lived with both parents grew up there. And then I was the first actually to go to college in my family. So after high school, I attended Indiana University in Bloomington, was about an hour south of where I grew up, and eventually setting the school of business there. I graduated with a degree in finance and real estate. And after that, I headed to New York City, as my first job out of school, worked on Wall Street as an investment banker for a couple years. And that was a you know, as you can imagine a pretty big transition for a guy from a little small town in Indiana to go to the big city in New York. But it was exciting. And I did that and venture got into investment management and alternatives. Specifically hedge funds. After a few years of Investment Banking, moved around a few different firms in the mid 90s. And eventually landed at a firm called ivory capital, our ivory investment management in the late 90s, that I helped co found. And then I was there for about 20 years. And I've moved from New York to LA during that span, and then to Houston during that span. And eventually, I called retired from that industry around 2016 2017. And just been focused on my own State Planning and Investment Management after that. And that's kind of where I am today.
Joshua Klooz 5:48
So I had, I had glossed over the fact that we had multiple mothers growing up, because I had three older sisters, and I always joke that I had four moms. So you know, you had the privilege of having two moms growing up, and it probably has made you all the more focused on detail would be my guess, right?
Christopher Winkler 6:06
Yeah, my, my sister was about three years my senior. So particularly when I was smaller, she's kind of protective. Now, despite that, I used to tease her a lot. That's probably what she'll remember the most.
Joshua Klooz 6:26
Well, you can't let her have have the title too easily. So there you go. So I want to key in on your background growing up in a smaller community. Similarly, I grew up in a smaller community. And if you're familiar with the work of Arthur Brooks, he talks a lot about the idea of of earn success, you know, the first memory that you have of someone depending on you, in that, you know, your effort and your your work matters, right. So essentially, the the feeling that you take away from your first ever job, or your first ever task where you're entrusted with, you know, a task to do, does anything stand out to you, as you think back through your childhood, whether it be chores for your parents, or whether it be, you know, a job that you had within the community?
Christopher Winkler 7:19
Oh, yeah, I could think of a couple of examples of that concept. Probably the first one was, like you mentioned, household chores, and the allowance process with your parents. So when I was, you know, obviously younger, and in grade school, my sister and I would help do the household cleaning around the house, you know, each week, and then we would earn an allowance from doing that work. So I think that was pretty important and instilling that, you know, you can get paid for your own labor.
And although it's somewhat mandatory to do the housecleaning, at least we got at least we got some compensation for it.
Joshua Klooz 8:07
Was there any black market for chores that you didn't want to do or anything of that nature of the gamesmanship that goes on, sometimes,
Christopher Winkler 8:15
we were pretty good. My sister and I were pretty good about it, we, we shared the duties pretty equally. And we had two bathrooms in the house where we usually each do our bathroom, and then obviously, the vacuuming and dusting and all that good stuff. Although to say this, my mom would usually keep the laundry to herself. So we didn't have to do laundry, which was nice, but but my sister and I were pretty good about it. And then as I got a little older, I decided to do a mow lawns, I used to call myself, you know, a landscaper, but seriously, I just mowed lawns around the neighborhood. You know, this was when I was probably in probably middle school. So obviously, before I drove, so my target market was pretty small. It just as far as I could push the lawn more to find to find business. But I did that. And I liked that. Because, you know, I was, you know, I can work as much as I wanted, you know, as get as many jobs as I wonder as many customers as I want and I get paid for it. And I kept that money. I felt like that was money, I earned money. I could do what I wanted with. I could save it, I could spend it. And that was really kind of a the first job if you will, that I had and also kind of entrepreneurial, right so that, you know, I had to take care of all the equipment, get the gasoline and all that stuff. So that was fun. And yeah, I would probably chalk that up as an example of what you're talking about.
Joshua Klooz 9:48
Yeah. So I probably told this story before, but I remember it wasn't my first job ever. But I remember someone that I had done some farm work for, and he paid me with 100 dollar bill. And I remember him leaning over and over my shoulder. And he he looked at the $100 bill, and he goes, I think he's one of the better looking men we've ever seen. Don't you think? It always it always stuck out to me, but one of those moments? So yeah, within your parents and even your grandparents? You What do you remember about work within that context? What What are your earliest memories of, of their work experience?
Christopher Winkler 10:26
Sure. It has to really relate to my father because my, my parents having when they were older, and so by the time I really knew what was going on, are old enough to know what was going on. All of my grandparents were retired, so they weren't working. I mean, I barely remember my paternal grandfather working, but honestly, whether it's memories, I haven't, and it's his retirement party. So that's so really, it would have to go to my father. My mother works as well, she worked when we got a little bit older. And, you know, became like the latchkey kids, I was that generation. But my father worked hard. Quite a bit. And so I, you know, one time I didn't see him, because he is working, you know, late hours. Sometimes he couldn't make or attend some of my events because he was working. But I saw, you know, how he worked and how paid off for him in his career. And but he obviously had to make sacrifices for that. And I saw that as well. So that's one of my earliest memories of, of work and work ethic. So I, I kind of adopted that, and myself that hard work ethic, and really instituted that my career early on. Even doing just summertime jobs, during college, or in high school. I'd always work hard, try to get things done. You know, it's funny, I worked as a custodian. Gosh, that must have been either my freshman or sophomore year in college, and I worked as a custodian for school district. And during the summer, that's when they do all the deep cleaning for the schools. So they, you know, they clean all the desks, they wax the floors, you know, all that good stuff. And so I got this job. And you know, you have it was just basically two custodians in me, right? So three of us have to clean this whole school over late, you have three months. And so I get in there. I remember my first day, I go on, I go to the custodial room, and I obviously meet them and they're both very friendly people. But I said, Okay, well, I just have a seat. We're gonna watch the news for a bit. So we watch TV, you know, the morning news, you get started early, I think we started like, at 630 in the morning. So the first hour, we just watch TV. I was like, Oh, okay. So then you go on the work and you know, we maybe go knock out a room. Okay, break time, let's go. So let me go back for a break. You know, have a 1520 minute break, watch some more TV, maybe then go do another work on another classroom, okay, lunchtime, then we go away for an hour for lunch. And on and on, but you get the point. It was, it was it was actually hard for me because I like I want to work right. And just sitting there watching TV or watching the news or whatever they're doing was just, it would just drive me crazy. But that's that was the way they worked, which was very different than what I was used to or grown up with. So it was kind of eye opening to see that different type of mentality with respect to work and work ethic. I guess. So I just felt I felt guilty, like, I'm getting paid by the school district to work right, per hour. I'm on an hourly scale. I should be working. Right. So that's another example from the flip side,
Joshua Klooz 14:02
I suppose. Yeah. So I want to get into kind of the you touched on a little bit there two things. So the kind of the beliefs of that community you know, secondarily but but we'll go ahead and go on the this other topic though, first, you remember the first time you encountered somebody that truly enjoyed what they did? Does that is there a memory that stands out to you at all?
Christopher Winkler 14:28
I'd have to think about it nothing jumps to my mind right now, but I'm sure I do. I'm just gonna have to have to noodle on it for a bit. Yeah.
Joshua Klooz 14:36
So I your idea of hard work just resonates with me. Right. I grew up in a kind of a German community, Polish community and you know, you literally couldn't rest until the job was done right. Are you felt that it was within closing distance? To this day, it still sticks with me? Are there other belief systems like that, that you look back and you attribute to either your parents It's or just your, you the community that you grew up in, that stands out to you at all, specifically around at work?
Christopher Winkler 15:06
Sure, I do believe in the Midwest and a lot a lot of communities in the Midwest, there is that that hard work ethic, for the most part, I see it, you know, I saw it a lot when I grew up. Like you, I have a lot of German in my upbringing, both my both sets of my grandparents are German. You know, they were probably they weren't first generation immigrants, but maybe second or third generation immigrants. And so they, you know, they much believed in that ethic, as well as just accountability, responsibility. Punctuality, always being on time, and for them tight, being on time means being 10 minutes early. You know, so a lot of that I, you know, I'll never forget a comment. My mom made, we would, you know, for holidays, we used to go to growing up, we'd go to my grandparents and, or later, we would, after they passed, we went to my aunts. And we had this one cousin, who was always late. It was on my dad's side of the family, and this is his sister's daughter. And I'll never forget my comment about you know, you know, they're, they're expecting, we're going to eat around one o'clock, you know, whatever, except for so and so she'll probably be there at 1/3. So, it was always like a derogatory comment about the person who was late. So it's kind of funny, but yeah, that was what I saw a lot of, you know, and had an impact on me, obviously, with that, because I carried that on in my life. That accountability, that personal responsibility, you know, we don't, you know, we don't tend to place blame on others, we kind of need to take that responsibility ourselves. And, you know, handle it that way. Instead of pointing fingers.
Joshua Klooz 17:03
Absolutely. That resonates a lot. And once my wife hears this, she's going to laugh hysterically, at the 15 minutes early comment, because it drives her absolutely nuts that you know, we're we're typically like, awkwardly early to wherever we go. But it's, it's I'm almost more stressed about the opposite to your point. So I want to transition, you know, to further on in, in life and focus on school, do you feel that there's a, a teacher or mentor or a figure that within your educational experience stands out to you that helped, even in those early days start shifting you or guiding you towards your career that you ultimately chose?
Christopher Winkler 17:48
Well, I would say, I don't have a great example of that. But I do have one middle school teacher, I remember pretty vividly. You know, he has since passed, but he was my English teacher, honors English teacher, middle school, Sky, Glen McManaman, and he was the best English teacher in the middle school. But that's not really what's so bad about him is it was his effort to go above and beyond just the classroom. So he also oversaw the, the height, forget what they call it, but you know, the telecommunications or news team, they had a middle school. So we had our own kid driven news team. Oh, that's cool. report the news. And he oversaw that. And so I was I was involved with that. I was a sports reporter. As a matter of fact, in in middle school, I still, it's a little piece of information, a little tidbit. And I was co anchor on the news. And so he was really good to work with on that. And it was it was really pretty impressive. And that he was very comfortable letting the students kind of drive the show, which show the confidence he had in us to trust he had in us right to want to get it done, but they do it with responsibility. Right. So he, you know, I felt that from him, I thought that was pretty, pretty unique. And then, you know, he also oversaw the drama group and the plays throughout the year, which I was not involved in. But, you know, he was very active in that. And I saw him do that with a lot of other students who were friends of mine. So what I really took away from that was, was a teacher that gave back a lot of his time. I mean, I can't imagine how much time he gave back outside of the regular classroom right throughout the year. He didn't have to do it. He just chose to do it. And he would you know, he would help sponsor like little parties for the drama group or for the news team throughout the year. Um, so I really liked that about him. And it kind of instilled in me this idea that, you know, a job, not always a nine to five thing that, you know, in any career, you know, you can do a lot more than that can really have an impact on people outside of that office or outside of that classroom, for example. So that's, that's a person that I remember pretty well, from my teaching, or my student days, I should say,
Joshua Klooz 20:27
Do you remember the thought hitting you that man, he's not getting paid any extra for this after extra effort at that age, because I know is younger, as a younger person, it's hard to put everything in context. And so you look back on it, I find it's easier to look back and be like, Wow, that was amazing. I didn't appreciate it at the time fully.
Christopher Winkler 20:46
But, ya know, it's a good at the time. I never even thought about it that way. Right? So I later that I really kind of figured it out what he had done and the contributions he made. So at the time, I just like, I mean, I didn't think it was normal for a teacher to do that. But I also didn't think in terms of what was he getting paid per hour.
Joshua Klooz 21:11
But again, it is funny, nearly everyone I talked to has an experience like that, where they realize that the shape of money has changed, right? The shape of compensation looks very different for a lot of people. And they have experiences where that there's a person that stands out in their life, like hey, looking back on it, they were getting an intangible reward over and above, you know, what they were getting monetarily. And it's, it's really cool to see that, that playthrough Are there any other experiences that you look back on? And? Well, actually, before we get to that, what did you read growing up? Do you mind sharing a little bit of whether it be for for pleasure? Or for curiosity?
Christopher Winkler 21:53
What did I read growing up like as a, as a young adult, or as a student or,
Joshua Klooz 21:58
as a student and young adult? What what interested you?
Christopher Winkler 22:01
Okay, well, I guess, you know, early on in this is, it's gonna be hard for me for me to remember exactly when I did this. But I got into, I was very big into mail order catalogs. And back in the 80s, that business was just taking off at that time. So this is pre internet, for all you younger people out there. So I did a lot of mail order stuff. And one of the things I did as I did book clubs or or book, book catalogs, so I would order a lot of books through those clubs. And they were pretty needy, you know, I don't know if people remember the Columbia House cassette clubs back in the day, but you know, you get like, nine books for like, $10. Right, and then you then you become a monthly member. So I got books from there. But what I liked to read back in the day was I did a lot of fantasy as well as science fiction and Stephen King type stuff. I was really into that. I enjoyed that a lot. So I read, I think it was Roger Selassie is a pretty famous writer for fantasy and things like that. And then Isaac Asimov. So, you know, even Edgar Allan Poe, I enjoy reading some of his stuff. So I a lot of that early on is what I would read, as opposed to biographies or history or things like that. It just for whatever reason, it just resonated with me. So, and ironically, I don't read that anymore. But back then, when I was a teenager, and in high school, that was the kind of stuff I like to read.
Joshua Klooz 23:37
And it's funny, even our girls are now reading. And we just encourage them, hey, just read the next thing. Just read the next thing. And it is I'm almost envious of the consumption with which similar what you're talking about. It's just the unsatiable it's just they turn through a book so quickly, in a greater they have different time levels to devote to it. But it is interesting, the, you know, our hope is that hey, you know, it doesn't matter what the reading just so long as they continue to go that direction over time, their their appetite kind of helps lead them a direction in a certain direction. Within finance specifically, do you remember why that stood out to you and why you majored in in college?
Christopher Winkler 24:23
Well, when I went to Indiana University, as a freshman, I was undecided on what I really wanted to do. I had early aspirations to get into law. My uncle was an attorney on my father's side of the family is a defense attorney in a small town in northern Indiana. And, you know, I was always impressed with you know, what he did and what he had built in and obviously, defending people in a court of law was pretty interesting. So I thought about being an attorney. But what kind of turned me off one day as I got out of flow Don't book again, this is gonna date me, but you know, the yellow pages or the white pages, whatever. But I got it out, I looked under, like attorneys, right? And see what it's like. And it was just page after page after page of attorneys and I'm just like, Does the world really need another attorney? And I just thought about that I'm like, you know, what, you know, how do I differentiate myself in that market? You know, what's that going to be like, and I just kind of got turned off on it, I guess. And so as I was a freshman, you know, I was looking around at Indiana to see what you know, they offered and what they're good at what they're known for, and their school of business is obviously well, renowned, well renowned. And so I looked into that and decided, you know, I'd like to go that route. And then as I got in there, and I took different courses, you know, they they encourage you to like, take different courses at the entry level to get exposure to different functional areas, whether it's operations, accounting, finance, etc. And I just took a liking to finance during that process. So by my junior year, I knew that's what I wanted to do. And that's what I got my subscription to The Wall Street Journal. And as I read that, I really enjoyed a lot about the markets, the financial markets, and worrying about companies and stocks. So I did that. And, and the other thing I did is, I took some real estate classes there. And I really enjoyed that as well. So I ended up double majoring in real estate in finance, and wasn't sure which career path I was going to take. Because I had a passion for both. But it just really came from the coursework, that it just kind of resonated with me, as I learned about it, and just intrinsically enjoyed that subject.
Joshua Klooz 26:49
Yeah. Do you remember anyone giving you advice during that time to follow what you enjoyed? Or do you remember anybody saying, well be practical? Or what were the different mentor voices in your life telling you about that time? Do you remember?
Christopher Winkler 27:05
Well, I mean, it's funny you say that, like I really had didn't have any. And what I mean by that is, you know, as I said, Before, I was the first to go to college, in my family. So, you know, my parents couldn't offer a whole lot of guidance. At this time, you know, they were, you know, they, they've obviously graduated from high school, but that was about all they attained. And so they were kind of fish out of water in this experience. And then within college, I was very independent. So I didn't have a, like a counselor, if you will, right, I didn't have anybody guiding me. I've just kind of self taught and learned it myself and figured out what I wanted to do and did it. And so that's kind of how I went about it, I would talk a little bit with some of my professors about opportunities out there, you know, more one off conversations. But I never had a consistent voice along those lines as a mentor or coach about that. So rightly or wrongly, I didn't have that person telling me, you know, follow your passion. You know, it's not about the money, it's about the passion. You know, if you really enjoy what you do, you'll never work a day in your life, like no one ever taught me that. Right. So, you know, I didn't know those, those nice rules. And So had I known that it'd be interesting if I would have gone a different tact. But I did actually enjoy finance and real estate, and I kind of naturally just went toward those. And so whether my first job would have been the same or different, I don't know. But I guess it was just maybe it was kind of unique to me. I just didn't have that in my life. Back then.
Joshua Klooz 28:50
When you thought about the interview process and finding a job, what was that? Like? What was that experience like for you?
Christopher Winkler 28:58
Well, what yeah, like, if you think back to the, like, well, your first professional interview job interview, right, where
Joshua Klooz 29:04
it wasn't visible, by the way, mine was, yeah,
Christopher Winkler 29:07
it's just like this, like this the real deal, right? You're, you know, you're, you know, you're nervous, you're anxious. You know, and even if it's not the job you really want, right, it's just like, you want to do well. And so, the good news about Indiana and their school business is they had a course that we all were required to take, and I cannot remember the name of it, but it was around your job placement job search process, right? You take it your senior year, and they teach you all these things about resumes and job searching and interviewing techniques. And so the good news is, you know, you get a little bit of background in it, so you're not completely caught off guard when you walk into that room. But having said that, it's still that first one, you're going to be nervous and of course I was and you So I just I just going into that I had prepared to prepare to prepare did you know I basically had a list of questions that, you know, I expected the interviewer to ask. And I had answers memorized. I mean, I had probably five to 10 pages just memorize questions and answers. So I was ready. And you know, sure enough, do they ask a lot of those questions because it's, you know, it's not rocket science, you they want to learn about you, you know, what, you know, what you do, how to do it, you know, all that stuff. And I didn't have a lot of, obviously, professional experience at the time from internships, I didn't take any internships. So I would try to direct the conversation toward my academic background, as opposed to professional background since I didn't do internships. But it was fine. You know, after a couple of those, you got to be more comfortable, because it was you're starting to hear the same questions over and over, and you get to hone or fine tune the responses a bit better, and you just, you know, like anything, when you experience it more, you get more comfortable with it, right? From practice. And so your anxiety goes down, your nervousness goes down. Now, having said that, when you do get that job interview for that job, you really do want, right, like, this is what I want to do. This is where I want to work, that anxiety starts to go back up again. Because you said I, you know, I have to nail this interview, because this is the one I want. So it's still it's still resurfaces, you know. So that's, that's what I recall from those days.
Joshua Klooz 31:36
How, how did you get to Wall Street? Like, what was the link? Was there a connection that that you reached out to was a campus recruiter? Like, how did how did that happen? Initially?
Christopher Winkler 31:46
Yeah. So in Indiana, it was not known for sending people to Wall Street. That's just not something the university did. It was more on its quote unquote, finance tract, it would get you more to commercial banking. That was kind of the path that most would take. So you'd become your first job would be commercial loan officer right at a bank. And so a lot of Chicago banks would come down and recruit in Indiana, to get people into their loan program. And I did a lot of those interviews. Of course, the banks in Indiana and Indianapolis would do the same thing. So that whole region would do that. But people from Wall Street or businesses from Wall Street, your investment banks did not recruit on campus, Indiana, they just didn't do that. So they they were much more focused, you know, on the east coast and the Ivy League's, you know, they might go to University of Chicago, but that was about it. However, there was one exception to that. And there was a firm Dean Witter Reynolds that actually recruited at Indiana. And the reason they did that is they had had good luck. While there's two reasons. One is they've had good luck in the past with Indiana graduates who had done well in their investment banking program. And the second reason is the people that headed that company, were from Notre Dame. And so, so because of that, they recruited Notre Dame they recruited it in, right. And so that got me in to an interview. And they ended up hiring just two people from Indiana to come to their investment banking program. I was one of them. And there's this other gentleman named Ryan, that went with me who I didn't know, at Indiana, but I obviously got to meet him through Dean Witter, but that was it. And so that got me to Wall Street. And because I was really struggling how to figure that out, you know, if that had not worked out, I don't think I could have gotten there. So I was planning on going to Chicago to do commercial banking, and probably going back to get an MBA to then do a career switch into investment banking. That was kind of my plan B.
Joshua Klooz 34:08
What do you what do you remember those early days? Like, what what was it like?
Christopher Winkler 34:12
Well, you know, going into, you know, going from a town of 13,000 to like, you know, several million is a big change, right? And I'll never forget the first trip out there for my interview by myself, got on a plane, flew to flew to LaGuardia, landed a look where I didn't have a lot of money, landed at LaGuardia got in a taxi. And my interview was downtown Manhattan. I stayed at the Marriott financial center, which no longer exists, but gotten that taxi and I remember riding that taxi watching that meter and ever just going to stick my hand in my pocket at the pool. I start counting my money. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I don't know if I have enough money. I pay this cat fair, right? And I'm starting to stress out like, what do I do if I can't pay this cat fair? Right? So we finally get there. And I fortunately I had enough but barely right to, to do this. So I paid that pay the taxi driver got into my hotel room. But I guess the big, big shock was how expensive was Manhattan. And so fortunately, Dean Witter paid for the hotel room, right. But I just remember looking at the rate at the time, like it was, it was over $200 for a night, I get this hotel, and you know, this is 30 years ago, right? So I'm like, good, golly. Right. So you got the culture shock of the living, you know, the living costs of Manhattan, right. So we, then you know, just how many people there are in Manhattan. And when I got up the next morning, my interview was in the World Trade Center, to World Trade Center. So I walked across there, and the, the PATH train, which was a subway from New Jersey, and the New York subway led off in the basement of the World Trade Center. And they have these escalators that come up, you know, from the subway to the lobby, right. And I walked into the lobby, you know, from the, because the World Financial Center was a couple blocks away. So just walked over there, walked in a lobby, and I was just in shock at the number of people that were coming up these escalators, I just stood there for probably two minutes. And just in all, it was just, it was just it didn't stop, you know, just people and people and people coming up this escalator on things like, Good golly, there are a lot of people in this town. And so, you know, that was another adjustment, you know, just how crowded and dense the city, you know, Manhattan was. So, you know, those are some initial, you know, initial things I had to adjust to, and but, you know, one thing I'll say about the city was, it was very easy to get around. You know, nobody drives in the town. So you just, it's just easy to get around. You don't need a car, between the bus and the subway or walking. You can you can make it happen. So I was very impressed with the public transit system in New York, which I use quite a bit, particularly the first couple of years. And, you know, that was pretty impressive. You know, what they had built in that city for mass transit, and it works. You know, it just works. So yeah, those are some of my first impressions.
Joshua Klooz 37:46
What, what stands out to you, as you look back at your time at Dean Witter Reynolds, like what, in any stories or any experiences there that were formative at all?
Christopher Winkler 37:58
Yeah, I think it was a place where the hard work ethic paid off. So unlike my custodial experience, people on Wall Street work really hard. And, you know, this is it's, you know, back then it was, you know, notorious for 80 hour weeks. And that was actually accurate. You know, you're working 7080 hour weeks, there was there was one bank, that was even worse, where, you know, they were known to work 90 to 100 hour weeks. So it was intense, and you're expected to put in the time, and, you know, work your butt off. That was that was the way it was. So fortunately, because I had that ingrained in me that hard work ethic from growing up, you know, I adapted to it pretty easily. It didn't really bother me, honestly. I know a bother some people but but not me. And. And, you know, it was also more than just FaceTime like, you know, you if you took effort, excuse me, went beyond the little little beyond what was expected, like it would usually get noticed. So, I felt like there was a lot of meritocracy in that business, right in that industry. Of course, every every business has politics. I saw it there, you know, now is really my first exposure to politics in the business world. So, I kind of saw that but I also saw that the for a guy like me who didn't know anybody there, I had no friends, no family and that entire city. I didn't know anybody Dean Witter Reynolds was the fish out of water. as they'd like to say it was a guy who fell off the turnip truck, right. They and believe me, I got ribbed a lot. You know, it was a guy from Indiana, but I took it in fun and I got noticed and and so you're calm. review review time. And bonus time I saw it, I saw the benefits of that work. And so for the first couple of years, I put in the effort, and I felt like it was recognized it was compensated. So that was good. And then you know, they're there. Because of that, when you have a conversation with your higher ups, your supervisors or managers that you want to have career change, you want to do something else. They're actually helpful in that effort. So though, let me make you an introduction to this guy who you should have an information interview with, you know, see if it's something you want to do, or I know people here that I can connect you with, right? Even though they know they're going to lose me, right, as an employee. They, I think they recognize that, you know, this guy is probably going to be successful in his career. So I want to know, right, I want to keep him in my network and, and keep in mind, you know, good terms and not burn bridges. And I felt the same way. So I was very, you know, upfront with everybody about what I wanted to do. And despite that, they tried to still keep me on for, you know, another year, which I appreciate it. But, you know, it's we're honest with myself, you know, just not wasn't where my passion was, right? You talk about passion, doing what you like, I, by this time, I knew I wanted to be on the investing side of the market, right? Not investment maker. And, and one of the reasons for that was, I'm not a salesperson, right? I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a marketing guy, I'm not a sales guy, I'm not good at it. And I recognize that early on, I'm introverted. And so to be a good investment banker, you have to be a good salesman. And I saw that in the managing directors at Dean Witter, and I'm like, I'm not like these people. Like, they're, they're outgoing, they're extroverted. You know, they love to, you know, go out there and schmooze. And I'm just not comfortable doing that I don't, I don't enjoy doing that. And I, I could make a lot of money and have a great career doing that path, right? Getting there. But I wouldn't be happy. And it would be a struggle for me. So I just kind of saw that. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to switch careers and go in a different direction. So I did that. But those are some of the takeaways. And I and I had heard stories of other investment banks where I did not work, where, you know, there, I felt that, you know, some of the politics were worse than where I was. Whatever reason, because of this Notre Dame connection, I felt like it kind of had absorbed this Midwestern ethic in the culture of the firm, which for me was a was a good benefit, because that's who I was, as opposed to, you know, like, Morgan Stanley, or Goldman Sachs, which was a much more East Coast driven ethic, and just a different culture.
Joshua Klooz 42:44
Do you remember when kind of the vision for ivory took root in your mind? That was it? Was it later on? Or was it about this time?
Christopher Winkler 42:54
Oh, it was much later on. So I was I switched over to getting into a hedge fund. I only knew about the industry, from what I read, you know, in newspapers, and articles. The back of the time, it was a it was a it was a market or I guess an industry that was still in its infancy. People didn't know what it was. Even people investment banking, didn't know what it was. I mean, I remember having conversations with some of my colleagues at my level, and they're like a hedge fund. What is that? And I'd have to explain it to them. And so I just, I needed to get into it, to really understand it, and to see what it was about. And, you know, I thought I would like it. I didn't know for sure. And I'd also considered going into mutual funds as another option, which is a more traditional route. And, but I ended up getting an opportunity that was kind of unique, and I grabbed it, and I took it, and I was at a startup hedge fund, very small, less than 10 million in assets, but got me in the door. Right. And so I did it. And that kind of progression, the next opportunity. And it was when that follow on opportunity where we were that startup had basically we closed down to join a bigger hedge fund. And so we did that. And at that bigger hedge fund. That's where the genesis of it started to take place. But it was it was later it was not initially, when we first joined, it was later because what caused that idea to take route was we were having too much conflict with the founders of that bigger hedge fund on what direction we wanted to take the fund and how we managed it. And so it was a genesis of how to manage risk. Really, that created the idea for ivory. And so after a couple years at that bigger hedge fund, we decided, you know, we want to manage risk in a different way. And and so we decided, let's let's leave and just do our own thing. So a couple of us decided to do that. And so we departed and set up ivory at that time.
Joshua Klooz 45:07
So, Chris, can you give me just a better idea of kind of the psychology behind the move? Did you literally start, you know, when when you started library? Did you literally start with zero? Or did you have a few clients committed? How did that all work?
Christopher Winkler 45:22
Sure, yeah. So when we made the decision to start our own hedge fund, you know, like I had said before about, you had a different philosophy on risk management. We got started, it was a pretty risky venture. There's a couple of us from the bigger hedge fund SC fundamental. And we brought in a couple other other folks too. But in terms of capital, we really didn't have much lined up, we had some of our own money, which wasn't a ton. We were still pretty young in our careers. But we did have one benefit that helped de risk the situation, which was the principals and the founders of se fundamental, agreed to give us a little bit of seed capital, when we started ivory. So that that definitely helped. You know, even with that, it wasn't enough to get us to break even yet. So we were still having to fund the new enterprise with some of our own money and, you know, taking haircuts on compensation, whatnot. But, you know, it was it was risky, so that, what we did is we really focused on trying to raise more capital from other investors, we got some fun to funds money that came in a bit early. These are investors that had known us at SC fundamental. And so they were willing to kind of give us the benefit of that, quote, unquote, track record, to invest. A lot of times these investors that have come into hedge funds, or startup hedge funds, wait for three years of track record, why invest? It's kind of like a chicken in the egg problem. So fortunately, we were able to get around that because of the investors that knew us from our prior experience at other funds. So needless to say, you know, when we looked at the budget and everything, our my founding partner Curtis was willing to fund personally to kind of get us through, we all took big haircuts on salary. But we got through that first year. And, you know, we're very fortunate in that we were able to grow assets for new investors. And by the second year, we were above breakeven. So we were in a pretty good spot. But starting any business is risky. And you just don't know, you know, sometimes you get fortunate with how things move, and sometimes you don't.
Joshua Klooz 47:37
Are you still in New York at the time or moved to LA? Yeah, what drove the move to LA?
Christopher Winkler 47:45
That was after 911. We, the man, the primary founder, this guy, Curtis was from Los Angeles, and he wanted to get back to Los Angeles. So he actually set up a second satellite office in LA, I guess that was probably around 2000 or so. So he was back and forth used by coastal and the rest of the team, the core team was in New York. And then after 911, when that hit, we kind of just sit down and talked about and we decided that we wanted to go ahead and just close New York, and moved to LA based on what had happened. So we we all did that kind of voted, discussed it moved to LA. Now ironically, we ended up reopening New York later. Second office there, but for that time, being we were just in LA for a few years.
Joshua Klooz 48:40
Got it. What talk us through your role at the time, like you'd said it was more on the investment side, but can you flesh out what that looked like in the infancy stages, what it evolved to?
Christopher Winkler 48:52
Yeah, initially, when you start a hedge fund, your founders are going to wear a lot of hats, every hat, right? So we're, we were no different. You know, each of us were wearing a lot of hats. I took over primary responsibility for setting up the structure for the fund, which was kind of legal operationally how we set it up. So I spent quite a bit of time doing that, you know, from selecting our professional advisors, you know, accounting firms, legal firms, brokers, prime brokers, custodians, administrators. And then drafting your documents for your partnership agreements, your confidential offering, memoranda, etc. oversaw a lot of that. And then on the accounting side, it was me and another gentleman there that really focused on getting the accounting setup. You know, from the general ledger, and I know on we just got it all set up for both the management company as well as for the funds. So I spent a fair amount on that office space, you know, finding a space, I really helped going to get it get that, in fact, I got us free office space for our first year, which was pretty cool, you know, I got to kind of deal with our prime broker to negotiate that. And I spent a lot of time on that. And then on top of all that, you know, investing, so I was a senior stock picker. So I picked the stocks for the portfolio, the long and short side. A Curtis was the head Portfolio Manager, you know, managing that, and then I will last but not least, is I oversaw risk. In our risk management early on was very crude versus where it ended up. But you know, is basically running Excel spreadsheets on looking at the risk of the portfolio from exposures and core spread risks that we had identified and measured. So I did that as well. So it was a lot, you know, and I, I wasn't like the main marketing guy, but I would still sit in on marketing meetings, right. So as investors come in, they want to meet the team. So you know, we'd all sit in on those meetings.
Joshua Klooz 51:10
And so you look back on those years, are there any memories that you look back on? As formative? From a, you know, even from just the way you view that your time with ivory?
Christopher Winkler 51:26
Yeah, there's there's quite a bit, that's going to happen in something like that, when you start a new business. One is, you're dealing with the anxiety, of starting a new business, and the risk of that is not successful. You know, how much can you invest in it, et cetera, you're not just time, but also, you know, your own money, whether that's foregone compensation, we're actually putting money in the business. Fortunately, for us, you know, Curtis was willing to put in some big chunk of money to get it started. Because he was the founding partner. And that was more than enough to get us to break even. So we were good on that front. But flipside is, you know, we took huge pay cuts, right, all of us to contribute that way. But yeah, for the first year, you know, we were able to get to, to basically a normal level of compensation, which is fortunate for us that we were able to grow quickly enough to do that. But you think, you know, what, if that didn't happen, right? How long could you do that? Right? How long could you make that sacrifice or that compromise? So you're always thinking about that as a founder? And then as your will people believe in the story? Can you market this? Is there an audience for what you're pitching? And that's a risk? So you know, those first few marketing meetings are just like your first few first few job interviews? Is that same anxiety, right? It comes back like, Yeah, this is just like getting my first job interview, like, I got to, I got to do this, right, I can't screw this up. But it's, this is a case where every one of those quote unquote, interviews in your market meeting is for the job you want, right? This is the job I want this the investor I want, right? So they all have to be good. So you go through that, and you learn to deal with that pressure, and then anxiety. And eventually you get confidence in it. Because after you get a couple of early wins, or you get investors that, you know, say yes, then you feel like okay, we must have something here, right? These These, these are very sophisticated investors that interview tons of hedge funds, and they see something in us. And so that helps build your confidence. And as you build your confidence, it's a it's a double edged sword. But on the on the good side of that is your anxiety goes down, right? And so as you go into those meetings, you're more confident, you feel like, okay, we have something here, that's good. It may or may not be a fit with this investor, but there's a good chance that could be and in our story is probably good. So let's just stick to it and keep pushing it. The other side of that is, you get overconfident. You get cocky. And when you have early success early on, you know that's a risk that that tends to rear its ugly head is that overconfidence issue.
Joshua Klooz 54:21
You must have known where it was going. Are there any mistakes that you made, whether it be hiring or whether it be the formation or anything that stands out to you the look back on and you're actually thankful that you made them early? Because it sounds like you had a lot of early success?
Christopher Winkler 54:36
Well, yeah, no failures, no mistakes. We were perfect. Okay. We made it we made a very big mistake early on in our investor base. And it was a calculated bet, and it did not go well. And here was the bet. So back in the early 2000s There were these investor groups based out of Switzerland, from all of the private banks in Switzerland, they were on the leading edge of investing in hedge funds, they were kind of the early adopters, if you will. And it was these ultra high net worth private banks in Switzerland in Geneva. And they could write checks, and they would, and they were fake. Frankly, they were kind of like lemmings. They just kind of followed each other. So once you kind of broke into that group, it was pretty powerful. And so we did. And the reason we did is we had a guy on our team that was kind of tight into Europe. And he got us in there and and we broke through. And we started getting a lot of checks from these guys with very minimal due diligence, which should have been a red flag right there. When someone's writing a check, and not doing a lot of due diligence, that's probably a concern. But of course, we didn't say no to the money, we took the money, and it got bigger and bigger and bigger. And then when 2002 hit, there were a lot of issues with with the dollar and currency, and a lot of these investors needed to pull out. And that just as fast they came in, they came out. And our bet was we were going to replace that money with stickier more sound investors over time. Right. And so that we would build a more strong foundation in our investor base. Unfortunately, we ran out of time, that did not happen. And over a period of about nine months, we lost 80% of our capital. And it almost destroyed our firm. We were, we were in pretty desperate straits to the year because the good investors are we're like what's going on? Like your returns or your returns are fine. But you know, all your money is walking out the door, like what's happening, right? And so it was, it was tough. But that was you know, that was a mistake that we had made. Because when you're early on, and you got these people writing these checks, it's hard to say no, to something like that. But sometimes you have to have the discipline to say no, and be a lot more careful about whether it's your investor base, or your customer base, or whatever it may be.
Joshua Klooz 57:19
Do you remember an instance where you had to have the courage and discipline to say no, I'm, I believe we're right. And it was difficult?
Christopher Winkler 57:34
Well, I would say for you know, for me, personally, that was a big decision. At the end of my career. This was in the mid teens, like 2014 2015, I started to see a secular shift in the hedge fund industry. And what I was seeing was that the industry had gotten too big. And when it got so big, it had basically arbitrage away the alpha. And so hedge funds were known for generating alpha, like, you know, excess returns over and above the beta. And so we and I can explain that if we need to. But essentially, you know, what it is, is, you know, can you outperform the market, right. And hedge funds were known for that you based on the exposures, they took the low risk they took they would outperform? Well, what I saw was it gotten so big, we were too competitive, we've competed away all that excess return, it wasn't there anymore. And I felt like this industry is going to shrink, and investors are going to get fed up, and they're going to lose their patience, and they're going to redeem, they're going to go elsewhere, look for that excess return. And I felt that we're gonna go through a painful period. And, and I got to a point where, like, I didn't even believe my own cooking, like, I got to a point like, I couldn't sit across the table from an investor and pitch my product, because I saw what was coming. And I knew how hard it had become for us to generate returns. And so like, when I got to that point, I said, No, I cannot do this anymore. And so that was a big reason of many why I decided to, you know, leave and stop doing it. And so, there Yeah, that, you know, there's examples of that throughout my career, but that is one that really sticks out because I walked away from a very lucrative situation that I could have, quote, unquote, milked for two or three more years. But from an integrity standpoint and an ethics standpoint, I couldn't do it. I can't pitch something to this one. I'm not a good salesman. I can't pitch something I don't believe in. Right. And so
Joshua Klooz 59:43
it can be argued that that makes you a good salesman, but you never know.
Christopher Winkler 59:47
Exactly. And I just couldn't do it. So I had to quit.
Joshua Klooz 59:52
Yeah. Okay. So, one of the themes that we worked through in the podcast is what Arthur Brooks was the happiness portfolio. And research talks about how a portion of our happiness depends on our genetics, a portion of it depends on big life events. But 12% is our habits. In within the happiness portfolio, he talks about the importance of faith, family, community, or friendship, and then meaningful work. And so we've talked a lot about all of these these portions without even intending to really, but how, what's your, your take on how to keep these portions of that happiness, portfolio and balance? And how do you do that even today? What's What are some of the best practices that you've implemented?
Christopher Winkler 1:00:47
Well, if you look at those pillars, I think, for me, personally, faith is at the top, above all else, so you know, as a believer in Christ, and God, I feel that that's got to take number one priority. Over above, you know, these other pillars, so I look at that as a priority at all times. And when I feel like that's getting neglected, or not being focused on I have to pull back, and I have to figure out, okay, what am I doing here that's pulling me away from my faith. And I need to get faith back there. And that number one spot. So as we live in a world with a lot of distractions, right, we live in a world where there's other priorities for other people, and it is hard to keep that faith front and center. So that's, that's an ongoing battle for me. So I always got to do that. So I look at that, first and foremost, so you know, obviously going to church, whether do Bible study or whatnot, if trying to be involved throughout the week, you know, I pray every day, whatever I got to do, to keep that focus. So that's, that's important for me to do that. And then from there, you know, looking at family is a big one. And that's with your immediate family for me, so, you know, my, my kids, and what, what I can do for them, you know, I really look at that as, how can I produce two good human beings, two daughters, right. And that's my goal, I want to produce to good human beings, with integrity, with, you know, good ethical and moral compass, who are respectful. And then have had the ability to learn how to learn, which is they can teach themselves and have the confidence to be able to teach themselves as they get older. Because that's, I think it'd be critical in our, in the society we live in is, you know, you can't just learn one trade and be set for life, you're gonna have to be adaptable and be able to pivot. So I want to make sure they have those fundamental skills on that front and core values. That's important. And I'm, you know, full disclosure, I'm divorced. So i That's why I didn't mentioned spouse before, otherwise, I would have. But but that's good on the family, and then the extended family. You're obviously want to just stay in touch with your extended family. It's hard because it's so hard, hard, right? Yeah. But I think it's important. And it's hard for me because they're they don't live here in Houston. Right, Matt? So they're so back in Indianapolis. That makes particularly during COVID. That is that was really challenging, for I know, for a lot of people. But I think that's important. In fact, I've been debating doing the cousin World Tour, and where I want to go and visit all my first cousins, who they're basically spread out everywhere, right, and probably five different states. But I thought I'd like to go visit them just to rekindle interspaces. Because growing up as kids, we were pretty close with my first cousins. But like all of us, we grew up, got families got busy, and we don't stay in touch with each other. So I'd like to do that. Just to kind of rekindle that family connection. And of course, friendship is a is important as your friendship can fill in for some of those losses on the family side. You know, and I think a lot of research has made it clear as we grow older, right? As we lose those friendships, it affects your mental health.
Joshua Klooz 1:04:31
And by definition men are at a disadvantage for that as well. Right the study I think the studies show as well, so we're behind the curve before we ever start.
Christopher Winkler 1:04:39
Yeah, men men are men are notoriously worse on that friendship side, there's no question about it, and it's, it affects longevity effects, the enjoyment you get in those later years, and friendship is important. So you know, I'm trying to make sure I maintain and keep as many friends as I can with my name. work. And it's it is a, it is a job to do that. Because our natural inclination is not to do it is to, you know, kind of, I would say pull back or retract, but just you focus on yourself, right, and you focus on these other requirements or these other priorities, responsibilities, whether it's your church, whether it's your family, whether it's your job, and then friendships starts getting neglected. So to be good at it, you have to be proactive, you have to be you have to be the guy saying, Hey, let's go out to dinner. Hey, let's go to lunch. Hey, let's do this. Right? You got to do it, you have to take ownership of that won't get done. Very few of us do it. So far on the friendship side? It's a it's a proactive endeavor. I think. So yeah, I think those are, those are great pillars. And then on the work side, to your point, you know, it's got to have a purpose or meaning. And so, you know, I don't think getting a big paycheck is a very purposeful endeavor. I, in fact, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I walked away from a very big paycheck. And the reason was, as I did wasn't seeing the meaning and the purpose in that. So for me, now, as I look at my next stage of my career, for me, it's a it's a, anything I do is an avenue to give back. How can this help me in a process of giving back to others? And so whether that's philanthropy or other means, that's what I'm looking at is as, as a means of giving back that's got it? That's the ultimate purpose, whatever I do next.
Joshua Klooz 1:06:36
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that so much. Are there any? You know, I've, I could probably list off several of the the first principles that have been intertwined. But within within the conversation, what would you say should be in your first three, like, you know, the rice, the three like, Hey, these are these are on my intangible balance sheet. And I hope my daughters get these these first principles over and above the others, because there's many supporting I think, is probably 10 to 12, that I've kept a rolling list of, but what would you say standout? Is the the top of those.
Christopher Winkler 1:07:15
Yeah, first and foremost is core values. I actually have these on my resume, my bio, these are for me, my personal core values. There's six of them. So we have integrity, honesty, accountability, humility, achievement, and fairness, and mutual respect for that. So I guess there's seven. And these are ones that I've, I've come to really respect a lot, because I've seen the effect they have on relationships, and in life, and so I won't go into too much on each of them. But I think our integrity for me is two things. It's really doing the right thing when nobody's watching. And it's doing what you say you're going to do is the the follow through on what you're going to say you're sticking to your word. Honesty, I think it's kind of self explanatory, is, you know, whether it's honesty with yourself, or honesty with others. It's, I think, a very important one, you know, don't it's not not I'm not saying it's about lying, but it's also about misrepresentation. Or, as they used to say back in the Clinton days, the Clinton esque type of lie, right. Accountability, that's kind of the German heritage coming through is being accountable, holding others accountable and being accountable to yourself, humility that comes from faith and what you know what Christ had really preached in His teachings about how important humility is, you know, it's his servant leadership and other things. But I think humility is a big one. Mutual respect. When you look at the source of conflict, either in a marriage in business, I would argue the lion's share of the time, it's due to somebody being Miss respected or disrespected, it comes down to respect even when you have a divergence of attitude or your different political view, you can have that as long as you can respect each other. And so respect is really important for productive relationships, fairness, I for some reason, when I was born, I was given the fairness gene and so when I see things that are not fair, I get very upset. And I have to be very careful because that can lead to judgment and being very judgmental, which, which is not good. We should not be judged. Mental, but I just have a strong sense of fairness and myself, particularly as I see other people being treated unfairly. And then last is achievement. And for me, that is being, you know, being motivated, being self motivated and wanting to achieve and wanting to be successful. You know, if you are blessed with a lot of good talents and abilities, I think God expects very big things from you. Now, so you need to achieve and you need to get them you need to get it done. And whatever that whatever his will has for you, you need to try to figure it out and get it done. So those are my core values. Those are those are once I find are critical to who I am.
Joshua Klooz 1:10:40
Excellent. Well, I am in danger of violating respect, because I've taken you 15 minutes over what I promised you to take, but thank you so much for sharing, it has been a delight. And, you know, again, these types of conversations need to happen more and more. And hopefully, there are somebody out there that is listening to this and takes away, you know, two or three nuggets that they can put on their own intangible balance sheet.
Christopher Winkler 1:11:12
Very good. Yeah, I think I think you know, whatever we can learn from each other is great, particularly, learning from others mistakes is a good one, right? So we can hopefully avoid them ourselves.
Joshua Klooz 1:11:24
Absolutely. Thank you again, Chris.
Christopher Winkler 1:11:28
Okay, my pleasure. Thank you.
Joshua Klooz 1:11:31
Thank you again for joining us for this week's conversation. We trust that your time has left you both enriched and inspired to better invest your own intangible balance sheet. As always, we wish you and your family continued truth, beauty and goodness on the road ahead. The opinions voiced in the wisdom and while podcast are Josh clips for general information purposes only, and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. investing involves risk including possible loss of principal. No strategy assures success or protects against loss. Guests are not affiliated with Carson Wealth Management LLC. To determine what may be appropriate for you. Please consult with your attorney, accountant, financial or tax advisor prior to investing. Investment Advisory services are offered through CWM LLC and SEC registered investment advisor.
Josh Klooz, CFP®, MBA
senior wealth planner
Phone 281.719.0036
Text 281.699.8691
Fax 281.719.0156
jklooz@carsonwealth.com
1780 Hughes Landing | Suite 570
The Woodlands, TX 77380
Transcribed by https://otter.ai