Stories for the heart, with Karen Stocker

In this episode Karen Stocker, therapist, artist and all around fabulous human, shares with us stories of heart and humanity, and her unique shade of wisdom.

You can find more about Karen here : https://thresholds.info/karen-stocker/
With this podcast, it's her only place of residence online :)

If you enjoyed this episode, don't hesitate to share with me what moved you, and I will share it with her.

✨The story of Milarepa : https://www.learnreligions.com/the-story-of-milarepa-450200

Get notified when the Silken Mirror membership opens in 2023 : http://eepurl.com/dxzCk9

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This podcast is hosted by Laure Porché: http://laureporche.com. You can follow me on Instagram @laureporche
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Transcript

[00:00:00] Laure: Today on the podcast. My friend, Karen Stocker. Therapist, constellation facilitator, artist, and one of my favorite humans. Karen is one of these rare people who don't have an online presence. So I'm doubly doubly stoked to bring her wisdom to you today. We recorded this conversation in person in her little house under the redwoods, filled to the brim with her creations and memories from her life. 

[00:00:34] I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. 

[00:00:37] Karen: Wow. Oh my goodness. 

[00:00:40] Laure: Forget that the microphone is here if you can. 

[00:00:42] Karen: The giant microphone. Yeah. I'll forget sort of.

[00:00:45] Laure: The giant microphone in the middle of the room. 

[00:00:47] Karen: Yeah.

[00:00:48] Laure: Let's not look at it. 

[00:00:49] Karen: Yeah, it's just fine. It's kind of a wonderful thing you're doing and uh, I agreed to the unusual features of it because of the ones that I recognize and love. Oh, and also because you're doing something... I mean, I don't wanna make you feel shy, but it is a little bit way of sparkling. Yeah. And it's quite fun. 

[00:01:10] Laure: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:01:13] So thank you for doing this and, and having us in this room full of rainbows. Mm-hmm. everywhere, and yarn which is, you know, makes me happy. And I'm gonna ask you the first question that I ask everybody who comes on the podcast, which is, what's your favorite story or one of your favorite stories? And why, and what do you think it says about who you are? 

[00:01:38] Karen: Hmm. . Well, luckily you asked me this question ahead. So the first two stories I thought of, which is really funny because I grew up in the United States of America, they both involve automobiles and one is a story of when my truck was stolen, and the other is the story of when I ran over my own foot with my car. And which one would you like to hear first? 

[00:02:02] Laure: Which one happened first? 

[00:02:03] Karen: Oh first my truck was stolen and later I ran over my own foot with my own car . Um, Yeah, so my uh, truck was a old truck and I took it to Andy's auto Repair and about a week later I called him and said, gosh is it done? And he said, oh, I thought you already came and got it. That's how we discovered it had been stolen off of his lot. And I was very stricken, like, oh, who would steal my truck? You know? And then uh, they said, do you wanna file a police report? And I was like, the police, no. And then they're like, well, that's how you get your vehicle back.

[00:02:38] So I did. And then the police called me in about a week and they said, ma'am, we've recovered your vehicle, but we're sorry to report that it's been damaged. So then they said, and you can come get it out of impound in about three days. So this story is about those three days, because during those three days, I was very miserable.

[00:03:00] When I would be sleeping usually, I was thinking, who would steal your car and then who would damage it? And I had terrible thoughts about these people. And I also spoke with my loved ones, many of my loved ones. And they were upset too. So then after three days I went and I got my truck and you know, I never found any damage in it. What actually I found they had fixed the radio, which didn't work before, they'd actually fixed the truck, because now it ran and they left me a white onion rolling around in the back of the truck. So then that made me think about the three days and how much my mind had been ready to pick up what this stranger, a police officer said to me and take it as a beginning point for a whole like extensive use of my creativity, my intelligences, my life energy, my emotions.

[00:03:58] And also I made a lot of my best friends miserable with me. And why that story came to my mind is because what does it say about me? God, I just think it's so obvious. My mind is really primed to pick up something and consider it true and then just blast into a whole encyclopedia of what that means, and then it can stir up me and stir up my friends.

[00:04:24] And, but the, the truck story, what it has helped me with is to question that sometimes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I just thought of another one that's not automotive. It's about a bicycle. so this was, not that long ago, cuz I'm about 69 now, and I was about 61 or two when it happened.

[00:04:48] I used to commute three miles on my bike to my work and there's a part of the commute where there was a long, slow hill, not a very steep hill, but you had to huff and puff and it was about a mile up. So it was a great hill. But for a lazy person or a person of lazy inclinations, there was also a hill that would lead down and then there was a stop light, but sometimes you'd get the green light and it would mean you could pick up speed on the downhill, fly through the intersection, and get a lot of headway, which I was doing one morning with a lot of joy when a very small dog, I guess I'm showing you with my hands, how small the dog was.

[00:05:25] Not, that's an exaggeration. It was a little bigger, and it was one on one of those leashes that's like a fishing reel. It just lets the dog go. So I don't understand that kind of leash. Then also the small dogs sometimes have a really big voice. I don't blame them. Anyway, so this dog rushed at my right flank, unrestrained, cuz the leash was one of those leashes and like that.

[00:05:50] And this is the part about the story that I'm trying to say. So I'm going uphill on my bike and without any thought or control I watch my right hand flies up off the handlebar and flipped the bird to the dog . And I'm trying to say that was in my early sixties, which is after having the benefit and the good fortune of half my life, exposure to tremendous meditation teachers offering me every opportunity to calm my mind.

[00:06:22] So that's how fast it happens. That's another story there.

[00:06:25] Laure: How about the one where you ran your, yeah, your truck over your foot? 

[00:06:29] Karen: That happened when I was first studying to be a therapist, and it happened right outside the little building where I was studying therapy. So at the time that I was studying to be a therapist, my car developed some kind of issue that made me take it to a mechanic, and the mechanic said, well, you could get us to repair it. It'll cost about $359 or you can just drive around and if that thing happens, here's what you do. You pop the hood and you get somebody to turn the key while you're tapping on the battery with a hammer. And so I chose the less expensive option, which is also something about me. And then I finished in therapy school one day and I went out and I was, had a tight schedule and I got in my car and it wouldn't start.

[00:07:11] And I thought, no problem. I have a hammer. Oh. No, I need a person. I hadn't thought of that ahead. And I looked around and there was a person at the bus stop over there, what could I do? I was in a pinch, so I ran over and I said, could you help me start my car? Person said, I don't wanna miss my bus.

[00:07:29] This is a very solid, realistic thing to say. I said, it won't take long. Person kindly said yes. So I gave them the less complicated, mysterious job. If you sit here and then just turn the key when I tell you, and the person said, okay. And I had the hood up and I started banging with the hammer and the person turned the key and the car started and then they turned the key back and turned it off.

[00:07:54] Hmm. Perhaps they're not a driver, actually. Perhaps they just usually ride the bus and out of kindness they're doing so. But when they turned it, it moved a little and then when they turned it off, it stopped. And now it was on my foot, my right foot. And honestly, it didn't hurt because it's like a half ton car and distributed over four kind of soft tires.

[00:08:16] It's like a big person, 250 pound person standing on your foot. It's not really painful, but I couldn't get my foot outside and I panicked. But somehow in that panic and the guy was getting out of the car, he goes, glad to help you gotta go. I said, I had to talk to him in a calm voice. So I made a calm voice, or I found a calm voice and I said, oh, could you do that just one more time?

[00:08:40] He says, my bus could come, I said, just, just, just one more time. Meanwhile, my foot is under and I can't get it out. And then he got in, he turned it, I tapped it, he turned it off. The thing rolled off my foot. I was wearing black leather shoes. I was very flat and it looked like, I always think this is funny. It looked like my daily planner and when I walked it was like step flap, step flap. And I went in my building where I was studying therapy and I asked the program director, which is the only person I could find, could you help me do this thing with my car? This was very humbling. Probably later I went and got it repaired.

[00:09:17] Yeah. I don't know why I would tell that story. I just think because I am the only person I know who's run over their own foot with their own car, so I feel unique in that. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:09:30] Laure: Well, you are unique no matter what. You are one of my favorite people in the world. Oh yeah. 

[00:09:36] Karen: Oh. Lucky. I'm lucky then. Thank you. 

[00:09:40] Laure: So you were studying therapy? Mm-hmm. . So you're a therapist. Mm-hmm. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do? In your own words, what do you think you do? . 

[00:09:50] Karen: Hmm. Well, I love them and I try to really see who really is this person. And I try to really listen, what is it actually. Then usually I get kind of outraged on their behalf. My God, this person has to put up with this circumstance. And then I wonder a lot. I tell them a lot of stories actually, honestly. 

[00:10:14] Laure: I'm curious about that. 

[00:10:15] Karen: Yeah. Well, I'd like to tell a story right now. Yeah. Once I was stranded in an airport, it's all about transportation, right? 

[00:10:23] Laure: This is interesting 

[00:10:24] Karen: Thanksgiving, I think, or something. So I was sitting on the carpet leaning against that really thick glass. If the glass would fall away, I would fall down onto a baggage cart or something, or the nose of a parked plane, but it held. And so many people and very close to me was a little, little person, very little, and this person was making an ear splitting noise, like a really terrible noise and a very unusual noise. And people were looking at little one. and they were looking with um, kind of dismay and um, discomfort.

[00:10:59] And also I would say they were looking around for where's, where's the adult? And then they could see, cuz there was the mom with a lot of bags and standing in that line that you better not get out of or you lose your place to talk to the agent. And she was trying to do stuff, but it wasn't making the little one stop.

[00:11:17] And I think, being a therapist, I could see some of the looks they were getting was like, oh, your child must be mentally ill or possibly yourself as well. Right. And uh, I happened to lean back and when I leaned close to the glass, then I heard in addition to what the sound the child was making, I heard the jet engines.

[00:11:38] And I realized this is a child doing what all children that age do they imitate. Mm-hmm. And actually he was making a brilliant, very precise imitation of a jet engine. Mm-hmm. And uh, right in that moment I just said really loud to the kid. Wow, that sounds exactly like a jet engine. You got it exactly right.

[00:12:00] And then everybody relaxed and I think that's what I do in my therapy sessions. Because I have a strong belief that all of us are doing what we're doing for really good reasons. And uh, that's what I look for. Makes me wanna cry. A lot of times when people come upset because they're doing something, it's getting 'em in a lot of trouble and they can't think of a good reason why they would be doing that.

[00:12:23] It's a big relief to them to hear there's a good reason. And then once they hear that, then the shame or criticism can lift off and then we can get busy looking at what's really happening here. A lot of couples come that way too. Maybe that's some of what I'm doing when I'm being a therapist is uh, consulting with the possibly very good reason. Yeah. 

[00:12:44] Laure: Yeah. I relate to that strongly. I mean, I've never put it in those words myself. Mm-hmm. . But I do feel that a lot of my work is to make clear for people why they are the way they are. and validate that it's normal, whatever they're struggling with, right? Mm-hmm. Because people will come and they don't understand why they're not happy or they 're not confident, or their relationships are what they are mm-hmm.

[00:13:13] And very often they don't realize that what they went through as a child or as a very young person usually, completely shaped that mm-hmm into being and that whatever they're doing saved them. 

[00:13:26] Karen: Yeah. You know? Right. Saved them literally. 

[00:13:29] Laure: So I'm curious because you have a lot of time and experience to spent with people and both as a traditional psychotherapist, right? And also as a family constellator, I think is really interesting. And because this podcast's about stories, both our stories, like what you told

[00:13:47] but also traditional archetypal stories like fairy tales and like all the stories that we use in our life or that, that talk to us. And I'm really curious about, in your experience, what are some of the recurring stories that, for you, are the most harmful for people to believe? The ones that are really detrimental to their lives. And then the stories that are the most helpful or supportive. 

[00:14:14] Karen: Well the story that comes to my mind when you ask about a harmful story, it's a story I've been upset about a long time and I think it could be that I don't understand it all the way, correctly, but I feel it has caused immense amounts of harm, and that's because it's in the most widely distributed book in human history. And it's a story of well, if I would start with a couple who wished for a baby and if I'm not mistaken they had to wait like 90 years to get this baby and first the wife had to offer like a handmaiden to her husband, and then after 90 years they got a baby.

[00:14:57] So imagine how cherished, and then I guess when that baby was about five or six, the way I've heard the story, somebody decided that the father's faith should be tested by telling the father, you should sacrifice your son. So this is where the story really bothers me a lot. And I feel if uh, there would be a spiritual test from a actual, true spiritual resource, that test would be the person would suffer harm themselves, suffer a kind of harm. Of course, a parent suffers harm when their child suffers, but... In fact, I barely believe it actually happened. I think somebody made that story up and yet it got into the most widely read book, published book in the entire world. And so this notion that it would be a good thing for a parent to sacrifice their child, I think may be the basis of how young people get sent off to war even. And I've asked and talked to people about it. I've tried to understand and I never understand about that story. And I hope and pray, Laure, that in speaking this way, I haven't offended or harmed anybody who would hear this, but... I mean, imagine if the story had been rather that, in order to test that person's faith in God, they should take on all the children that didn't come from their own lineage, but even to the extent of their capacity to even fill a household or fill a bowl of soup. Then if that had been the story that had been promoted all this time, how would our world be different? Even the story that there would be something called a God that would actually uh, sacrifice his own son. I don't think so. There's something off there, Laure and uh, I know it's probably the biggest story everywhere. And yet it's not okay with me. Yeah. That story's not okay with me and I feel immense amounts of harm have come from it. I just protest child sacrifice everything about it. Anything about it. So, wow. I guess I got a little triggered there. 

[00:17:20] Laure: I mean, it's fabulous cuz I honestly never really saw it that way. But now that you're saying it, I'm like, well, duh. If we're gonna model ourselves ...

[00:17:28] Karen: Right.

[00:17:29] Laure: ...towards that...

[00:17:30] Karen: Right.

[00:17:31] Laure: ...superior being or authority or whatever. Yeah. Then yeah, there's a lot of problematic things in this book.

[00:17:37] Karen: Yeah. Yeah. People tell me, oh, you have to understand the context. Child sacrifice was common in that time. I'm like, shut up. That is not a good reason to put this in the most widely... And then they also say well, you have to realize God didn't make him go through with it. Yeah. I'm sorry. What happened to that child?

[00:17:55] Plenty of people now live after having been tortured or having faced potential assassination or whatever it would be. I am a therapist. I sit with people who came through stuff where they survived, but there was an intention against them. They didn't know it wasn't gonna go through. Now I'm gonna try to calm myself down again. Thank you for asking about my worst story. That one's very bad for me. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:22] Laure: It is. Yeah. I mean, you went really wide with it, which I, I love. Cuz I'm sparked into kind of a new, reflection around it. 

[00:18:29] Karen: There's a funny story that goes with that, which is I went into it most deeply when I got kind of attracted to a person who was highly Christian. And I said to him, you may be able to help me understand this. And I voiced my protest as I just did to you, and then he left me a message back with his explanation only. He left it on my phone at work and I was A therapy intern at the time and at work. They had just begun to have a voicemail, believe it or not.

[00:19:04] It's a long time ago, almost between 25 and 30 years ago. So, and he was very smart and he figured out how you can push a button to extend your message. And he left me a half hour long message . And the next morning when I got to work, they had sent out an onus. "We're sorry, the phone system's down. We don't know why, but we're fixing it." But I know why I blew it up by asking this Christian Guy the question about Abraham and Isaac. Yeah. And him getting very deep about it on the voicemail. It blew up the whole clinic voicemail. His response. 

[00:19:39] Laure: That's really interesting. 

[00:19:40] Karen: Yeah. 

[00:19:40] Laure: And it definitely is relevant cause the child sacrifice is very prevalent in our Yes, society in many ways. And we could see it during Covid and, even before that, right. See it every day. Right. Even just in a judicial system. 

[00:19:54] Karen: Yes. Yeah. Mm. 

[00:19:57] Laure: And so what's the most beneficial story?

[00:20:00] Karen: Well, here's a story I encountered when I was more toward my mid late twenties, and it's a story from Tibet.

[00:20:09] As I understand it, there was a uh, family and the father became ill and he said to his brother " I fear I'll die soon. And I would like, my lands are next to yours and my animals are here, my buildings, I wanna give them to you when I die. Will you please care for my wife and son, a small son? And then he did die. And I'm probably also getting this story wrong too, but this is my version of it. Yeah, the brother or the uncle of the little boy, he did not care for the wife and son. He treated them like servants and the mom got a very bitter heart about that. So the little son grew up noticing and feeling the bitterness in the mother's heart and wanting to make things right for her. So when he was about coming of age, he went and he studied a kind of magic they have in Tibet apparently, where you can conjure a hailstorm. Maybe he was 13, 14, 15 or something, and he was very bright and was able to do this. And he conjured a hailstorm over a building where his uncle's family was gathered for a wedding and in an instant, like 30 of his relatives were killed by the collapse of the building. And in that instant, it struck him what he had done and some kind of internal scream for him.

[00:21:33] Really he hadn't meant to, he hadn't known. He just wanted to make things right for his mom. To the extent of his capacity, this is my understanding or my sense I make of it. And he ran basically screaming, fleeing where on the earth would be a place for him. Was there a place? And uh, he went looking for a teacher and many teacher noticed him and offered to be his teacher and he was searching for only just one particular teacher, named Marpa the translator. And again, all Tibetan people, I ask your forgiveness, that might be listening cuz this is a US girl's reading of it. When he finally got to the place where Marpa the translator was, Marpa put him off a lot. And then he told him " maybe I'll take you on as a student if you build this stone tower to these specifications", which is hard to do in Tibet. He almost could have died from that. But the wife of Marpa, she put like salve on his wounds of his back and fed him soup and stuff. It took him, I think, two years to build the tower in the right place.

[00:22:36] And then uh, Marpa came and it was perfect and Marpa said "it's off by half an inch. Rebuild it, take it down and rebuild it". And uh, Milarepa said, "thank you. I'll get to that immediately". And I think, I'm trying to shorten the story, that this went on for really a long time. He would finish it perfectly and Marpa would say, "no, it needs to be different".

[00:23:00] And he would say, "thank you", and he would do it. And finally Marpa took him on as a student. And when he accomplished those teachings, he went to a cave. He just didn't wanna be around people. But he, people couldn't stay away. They could feel to go there and , they would go there, they would meet him and he would see them and he would have a spontaneous song and they would hear the song that was spontaneously coming from him and that would be all they needed. So that is somebody, I think has the name Milarepa, but I'm sure I'm mispronouncing it. That story's really important to me and means a lot to me.

[00:23:34] Laure, I have another story too that means a lot to me. Mm-hmm. , is it okay or it too much? 

[00:23:39] Laure: No, no. Tell all the stories. 

[00:23:40] Karen: So this story, I read this when I was in college because in college I was very overwhelmed by this one library that had seven floors and uh, I was hiding from boys too, cuz there were four boys to every one girl at my college and the one place you'd get away from them was the library. So I would do this game where I would go to each floor and just randomly pull a book. And then I'd have seven books and I would go sit with them and open them. And this one was a very old book and it was an English translation of a Spanish priest's notation that he made when he went to Central America.

[00:24:16] So I can't vouch for the way the story came through all those translations. Yeah, It's a story about a creation and creation. Gods were one of those pantheons where they sit up on the clouds like drinking and gambling and messing around with humans. Anyway, these gods.

[00:24:35] made everything. So, you know, it was amazing because it was Central America, all those colorful birds and everything, and flowers and fruits and volcanoes. And, and then they were looking at it and they were pleased. But they were like, well, it's a damn shame there's no creature we made that can see how beautiful it is and give us thanks and praise. So they made some people, human people out of clay, and then um, that batch rinsed out in the first rain. Then they made another one out of like meat like us. And then that those people, they really could see how beautiful it was.

[00:25:13] But the problem is they thought they had made it so the gods were getting ready to get rid of them cuz they were like defective. But while they were getting ready to get rid of them, all of creation rose up against this aberration. And then they say the chickens ran after the human people and they said, you probably think we don't like getting captured and our ring our necks and pull our feathers out and boil us and eat us. But if you would just do your job, it would be our greatest honor, so now we're gonna run after you and ring your necks, throw you in hot water. And the grinding stone, the metate, corn grinding, it went, ran after the people.

[00:25:52] And it said you probably think that's boring for us, like grinding the corn, but if you would do your job, we would do that forever to serve in that whole big purpose, you know? But since you're not we're grinding you up, so then the gods didn't have to destroy them but they were gone. Mm. And then they made one last batch and they put them on probation.

[00:26:12] Are they gonna do their job? Mm.

[00:26:13] Laure: That remains to be seen. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:26:19] Karen: This is a favorite story of mine. Yeah. Yeah. I. . 

[00:26:21] Laure: I love those. And I'm also still curious if we're talking about people and not necessarily archetypal story, but the story that people tell themselves about, oh, themselves or the world or others. Oh, I'm curious about ... No, I love that you went there cuz it's really interesting for me and for everybody who's listening, but I'm still curious. Oh yeah. About what you think, what you've encountered in your practice of like some of the most detrimental stories that people tell themselves and some of the most beneficial that they can tell themselves.

[00:26:54] Karen: Well, when I think about, like I could say my people very quickly, my bluff is called, I'm in that number. 

[00:27:02] Laure: Yeah. I should say, the story that we tell ourselves that are the worst stories? 

[00:27:05] Karen: All the worst stories are separation stories, and part of what's the worst about them is I think they're probably not true. But also the worst is the feelings that come with them and the decisions we make based on them. And all the best stories are proof, living proof that the separation stories are not true . So that's it in a nutshell. , 

[00:27:27] Laure: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I couldn't have said better myself. Like, it's really accurate. For me, in, in my experience not even talking about this therapist, like I'm talking as a human being, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. In my experience, that's really accurate. Mm-hmm. And the stories that I try to loosen around myself are those stories that are telling me that I'm, I'm separated. 

[00:27:50] Karen: Well, what's making me laugh is as I begin to say it to you, all the separation stories that I'm in the middle of being deeply invested in right now are all standing up going, wow, you're gonna say this to Laure, and then what are you gonna do? ? You know, . 

[00:28:03] Laure: But, you know, I think they might not be true, but they're true in our bodies, which is why it's so hard to shake them. Right? The, the intense feeling of aloneness that we have felt as children very often, right? Mm-hmm. And that was life threatening at the time in a way. Even if they're not true in adulthood anymore, but the body's experience is true, right? It remains true. And so how you're gonna replace, however, slowly, the power of that story in your physical experience mm-hmm. with a, a sense of connectedness. A felt sense of connectedness because it's not enough to replace it in your belief, right? Mm-hmm. You can...

[00:28:48] Karen: Right, right, right. 

[00:28:49] Laure: ...kind of change the story in your mind, but it's not gonna change your felt sense of things. Yes. And which is why it's so hard, I feel when I have clients and they don't have support systems, I know that the work is gonna be harder for them because I think it's way more efficient for someone to find themselves in a group of people. To have a sense of being being supported, right? Yeah. Than to spend a year with me in one-on-one therapy. Exactly. I can provide some of that. Yeah. But I can't provide the real experience of being in community. Right. The physical experience of being in community. 

[00:29:25] Karen: Thank you. Yeah. Instantly my heart just went out in waves to all the children, how they've come through Covid times. Yeah. And also my body is kind of in an uproar ever since you evoked from me the nutshell version of what's the worst story and the best story. And all the people that I've been uh, considering myself separate from are bouncing around inside my heart and my chest right now, they're yelling: "See? See?". You know, and makes it hard to concentrate . Yeah. Yeah, no, they wanna be in the interview.

[00:30:04] Okay. And also what you're saying about being a therapist, of course, I question the profession constantly even as I practice it. And uh, a funny thing happened recently. Someone, in a way sought me out because I've been practicing not just the Constellation work for 25 years-ish. more I think, but also this internal family systems, which is parts work and so, somebody came very earnestly to me wanting to do deep work and when I heard all the responsibilities this person is shouldering up in their life, I actually tried to get them to not do parts work. I just wanted to only see, "where can we get more people to just show up for you". It's very, very earnest person.

[00:30:54] And in a way, it is true that if we don't have to have an inner child going, see, nobody helps me, nobody loves me. We can do a bit better in our present life. We don't have to have such terrible feelings, but we still need people to do right by us and we need people nearby and one person cannot hold up more than one person's share.

[00:31:15] Yeah. I guess right now my heart goes out to all the people that are holding up more than one person's share. While the things around them are not supporting. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm grateful for the ancestors ever ready to show up in immense ways. And then beyond the incalculable, that's not even the right word immeasurable generosity of the planet, if that's what you call it. , I dunno, the living miracle. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:31:45] Laure: Yeah. I feel that. There's only so much that you can do by yourself and on your own, and this year. I've had a number of experiences that kind of showed me the limits of inner parts work. It's great. It's a really wonderful tool and what was wounded in relationship needs to be healed in relationship. You can't heal yourself in isolation. 

[00:32:08] Karen: Well, except as you speak of it, there are some parts, like the separateness story. Mm-hmm. in me, for example. Which is the only case study I feel I have permission to speak of. Mm-hmm. Sometimes there are people or beings or aspects of the world that are honestly offering themselves to me, no strings attached, but there's a part of me telling me, you can't do that. You can't have that. You uh, something, something, blah, blah, blah.

[00:32:40] Some story. Then that part maybe learned to protect me when I was little by telling me, don't reach too far. Don't ask for too much, don't be too loud or whatever. Then I can do some work with that part myself and then what is actually available to me I can partake in. Yeah. So, mm. It just undermined my own thesis.

[00:33:04] Laure: No, no, no. Discipline. I agree that like there's a lot of the work is with yourself. Mm-hmm. , you know, you can't be solely healed by relationship. Yeah. Just like you can't solely be healed by working with yourself. I'm just saying like a lot of the focus in modern therapy is to be your own resource. Yeah. And that's not entirely valid. 

[00:33:26] Karen: Absolutely not. Especially if the injured parts or wounded parts are, yeah very young. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm hmm.

[00:33:34] Laure: So we are slowly coming towards the end already. Oh yeah. , but I wanna ask you my last two questions, which is, the first one would be, if your life was a story and you were the hero of your life, what would be your quest? Hmm. If you look at your whole life, like as an arc. What do you think is the main thing that you are after, that your whole quest is about? Hmm.

[00:33:58] Karen: It's funny, at almost 70, I'm not able to perceive the arc of my life when I look back at the things I did when I was your age, I just can't even imagine how I did those things. For example, if my own children weren't walking around on their own feet claiming to be my children, I would have no idea how I'd parented or birthed or anything. I know how I conceived, but that's all. But I could speak of now. I wish, I really, really wish that in any given moment I would be doing what a creature such as myself can do. Like if I was an apple tree, that I would be able to offer apples or branches, you know, or shade or whatever. I'd like to, I wonder what that is, and I would like to fulfill that within my place in the picture, I heard it said like, sing all the songs that I've come here to sing or sing the songs that only I can sing, or something like that.

[00:34:56] Laure: Mm-hmm. . . I like that. 

[00:34:58] Karen: Mm-hmm. Oh, and I also wish very fervently to not make things worse. 

[00:35:03] Laure: Yeah. Yeah. , that's a good one. 

[00:35:05] Karen: that's my arc now till whenever I leave. 

[00:35:07] Laure: Easier said than done. So I'm always very interested in soul, right, in the concept of soul. And it's evolved for me tremendously towards, actually in the last few years. So I don't even know if my question is relevant anymore. But I'd like to ask people, you know, when do you feel closer to your own soul? And then when do you feel closer to other people's soul? And it might be the same thing, but it might not.

[00:35:29] Karen: You know what's funny, Laure? If this was a podcast that began with that question mm-hmm. the podcast would be a lot of silence and it would be a lot of very active silence because I would be, I think all of your questions are relevant because they're invitations, you know, and to answer that question, I experiment with going closer to my soul so I can remember what that feels like. So then I could go see when I felt most like that . But when I go closer to my soul, I don't wanna go remembering anything. I just wanna be there. Mm-hmm. So, perhaps I'm feeling closer since you asked, to my soul, and you're here and you're quite nice. So, um, And you were the one that asked the question. Mm-hmm. So I suppose I'm probably feeling closer to your soul. And then , then I don't have to wonder when, cuz now is the best time anyway. So I think that's all I'd like to say about that.

[00:36:25] Laure: I think that will be the word of the end. Okay. As we say in French. 

[00:36:30] Karen: Okay. I love this. Okay. I love it too. 

[00:36:33] Laure: And I love this talk and I could talk with you for days. 

[00:36:37] Karen: Yeah. Me. Me too. With you. Yeah. Sometime maybe God willing and the creek don't rise. Let's do it.

[00:36:42] Laure: You will do a marathon . 

[00:36:44] Karen: Yeah. Why not. 

[00:36:45] Laure: And thank you for coming on the podcast.

[00:36:47] Karen: Yay.

[00:36:48] Laure: Cause I know this is not familiar territory. Hmm. I really appreciate it.

[00:36:52] Karen: People I've never met might hear it. 

[00:36:54] Laure: I know. Yeah. 

[00:36:55] Karen: Well, people might hear it. I hope they will sometimes rest deeply and uh, hope nothing very bad happens to any of them. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you

[00:37:11] Laure: And it's a wrap.