Ancestral strength, Hoodoo and poetry, with Amber McBride

🌳In this episode, I speak with author Amber McBride about the strength we inherit from our ancestors. We muse on the reality of Fae people, and on the value of uncensored fairy tales vs Disney-fied versions. She speaks to us about Hoodoo, and how nature is our oldest common relationship. We talk about how she teaches awareness to budding poets, and she shares with us some poetry from her latest novel in verse.

📚 To buy Amber's books:
Me (Moth) : https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250833037/memoth
We are all so good at smiling : https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250780386/weareallsogoodatsmiling

Follow Amber on social media:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ambsmcbride/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ambsmcbride

✨Here are all the links to things Amber and I talk about in this podcast:

The Last Unicorn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoU0Skd-8po
The Shape of water : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFYWazblaUA
Anansi : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anansi
Baba Yaga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga
Zora Neale Hurston https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zora_Neale_Hurston

Get notified when the Silken Mirror membership opens in 2023 : http://eepurl.com/dxzCk9

Follow us on Instagram @moonlitpathchannel

This podcast is hosted by Laure Porché: http://laureporche.com. You can follow me on Instagram @laureporche
If you're enjoying the podcast, consider sharing it or leaving a review on Apple Podcast :)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Laure: Today on the podcast, I am super excited to interview Amber McBride. Amber, also known by her poetry students as Miss Mermaid estimates. She reads about a hundred books a year. When I read Amber's books a few months ago, I immediately wanted to get her on the podcast. Her debut, Young Adult novel Me (Moth) was a finalist for the National Book Award and won the 2002 Coretta Scott King/ John Steptoe Award for new talent, among many other accolades. She's a professor of creative writing at University of Virginia and just published her second novel in verse, "We are all so good at smiling."

[00:00:48] Hi Amber. Thank you so much for coming to this podcast.

[00:00:53] Amber: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

[00:00:56] Laure: I'm really excited to have you . And before we get into your books and all of this, I always ask one question to start the podcast which is, what is your favorite story? And what does it say about who you are?

[00:01:14] Amber: Hmm. Such a good question. In general, I like all fairy tales, but I think that right now, at least for the last five years, it's actually been a movie which is The Shape of Water by Guillermo Del Toro. When I first saw that movie, it was this mixture of fairytale and what are our actual, I don't know, the things that are wonderful about us and this individuality about the main characters that, like, I was obsessed.

[00:01:44] I was in the world so much and for me, a person who, my students, literally my nickname is Miss Mermaid as opposed to like professor, because the inside joke is I believe in mermaids, I always have. And that movie, just even the way it was filmed is just so beautiful. And it is a fairytale. It's like, I love when a new fairytale comes on the scene, and that one just blew me away.

[00:02:07] And I think I'm just a person who thinks that there's beauty in the unknown. I'm okay with not knowing everything. I'm okay with learning new things, and I'm okay with things that startle me. That might not be something that we can actually explain by science or anything like that.

[00:02:23] Laure: Yeah. I love that movie as well.

[00:02:26] Amber: It's so good.

[00:02:28] Laure: And I relate to the Mermaid. One of my favorite story was The Little Mermaid, the original version, not the disney version, the not happy ending version.

[00:02:38] Amber: Right. Cuz all the fairy tales for Disney have been like, shifted a bit to make them more child-friendly. Like Cinderella's not the same , and the originals are the unique ones, they're the true ones. The things that tell you something about the human condition. So yeah, I'm definitely a fan of the originals, not the Disney ones either. Yeah.

[00:02:58] Laure: Child friendly is, I don't know, like as a child reading the original Little Mermaid, I related so much to her being pricked by a thousand needles every time that she walked. And I related so much to the ending where, she had to give up her soul, like become foam because she really couldn't betray her own love for this person.

[00:03:24] Amber: Yeah. And it's the idea that kids can't understand like complex things like that, that make us simplify these fairy tales when like you're saying, it could be a better experience and have them think more deeply on something when it's the original. I think of that with the film. Have you ever seen the last unicorn? 

[00:03:42] Laure: I don't think I have 

[00:03:44] Amber: I feel like it was made in the 1980s, but it's a bit more of a grim kind of gritty fairytale. It was one of my favorites when I was younger, and it has the same vibe, like the unicorn ends up being part of the sea because she can't betray the person she loves. It's really based off the Little Mermaid story. You should check it out. I think you would like it. Yeah.

[00:04:00] Laure: Okay, I will . And it's also underestimating children. When I was a child, I had a taste for dark things. And I was living dark things and it was helpful to me to have them in stories. I wouldn't have been able to relate or to recognize myself or to help myself with stories that were Disney-fied. 

[00:04:25] Amber: Yeah. And that's the thing about like having inclusive stories cuz you're saying you translate, you know, books is like those stories that might be a bit grittier that, you know, might not get all the attention at first. Like those are some of the stories that kids relate to the most. And I think that, like what you're saying, if you don't see yourself in this story and everything is perfect. How are you learning about yourself and how are you saying, oh, there are people living like me. There are people who relate to this situation, so, yeah.

[00:04:55] Laure: And potentially there's a way out also or there's a way that you can actually survive, even if it doesn't have a happy ending or if the journey is not made easier in the way that the tale is told. I think that's basically what resilience is about and it's super important as a child, I think, to experience that tension within stories as well.

[00:05:20] Amber: Definitely, completely agree, yes. 

[00:05:24] Laure: So congratulations, your second book, We are also good at smiling is doing amazing from what I can see.

[00:05:34] Amber: Yeah, it's weird.

[00:05:37] Laure: and I'm so glad cuz I, I loved it so much. And so, do you wanna talk a little bit about, I'm sure you've being asked to talk about it a lot, but just for people who haven't read it .

[00:05:48] Amber: Huh. So We're all so good at smiling is a novel in verse about a girl named Whimsy and a boy named Ferry, who both just left a mental health institution where they were being treated for clinical depression. And after they leave, they end up living on the same street, very serendipitously. And there's a haunted garden that whimsy has always been afraid of at the end of the road. And Ferry is also strangely afraid of it. And in this story, they have to enter the garden, which is filled with fairy tales and pain and truths about their past and work through it to come out at the end. And I wouldn't say healed, but stronger for going through that depression, for facing the things that they had to face and not avoiding it.

[00:06:33] And for me it was very much, I guess a reckoning with myself. I've always had clinical depression since I was very young. I feel like people always would ask me, oh, you're doing well, cuz they see you smiling. And I'm like," ma'am, I'm on three antidepressants and I'm tired and I'm, I'm faking this" is really, you know the answer you wanna say so much. And so that's where the title came from. We're all so good at smiling. We're all so good at pretending that we're fine, like putting on a performance. But in reality we have a lot of pain that we wanna talk about and we don't normalize talking about that specifically with young people. They're like, what do you have to worry about? Well, we live in a kind of scary world. There's a lot to worry about, you know? And I think that for me it was also one of these things where as a child, I wish I had a book that talked more openly about depression. It wasn't something, I'm turning 35 in a couple days, we weren't talking about mental health, like at all. Sending kids to therapy wasn't even really big in the states and so I just wanted something that felt like an escape. The same way that when I was younger, one of my favorite series was the Chronicles of Narnia because there was this idea that you could step through this wardrobe and like there's a whole world and there's still problems in that world, but somehow because of the magic, they feel more manageable. And that's kind of the vibe of it. I couldn't write a story that was just like, this is a girl with depression. This is a boy with depression, because I can't even describe it. Right. So the only way I could do it was through creating a whole fairytale around them. Yeah.

[00:08:02] Laure: I mean, your writing is gorgeous. I love poetry. I don't know poetry very well. But it's an art form that really speaks to me. And I really fell in love with Me Moth when I read it , your first book. My job sent me both, and I was like, okay, this is amazing. But I agree in the sense that we don't talk about it partly also because it makes people really uncomfortable to be with pain.

[00:08:29] Amber: Yeah.

[00:08:29] Laure: And also because we live in a world where we have to have justification for our pain.

[00:08:37] Amber: Oh.

[00:08:38] Laure: It has to be rational. You know what I mean? We have to have a tragedy or whatever. I work in a field where it's understood that we very often carry stuff that we don't even know about.

[00:08:53] Amber: Mm.

[00:08:54] Laure: And that's one other thing also that I really liked in your books, both of your books, is a very strong relationship to Ancestry and to in the case of We are all so good at smiling, there's a relationship to secret.

[00:09:09] Amber: Mm.

[00:09:10] Laure: And the secret in a way being the cause for the symptoms like the depression and what's happening. And in, in your book's case, it's a secret that's from the lifetime of the main characters, but very often it's actually a secret that is one or two generations removed. And then somebody, two generations or three generations after will have clinical depression or they will have you know, something that's, that becomes recurrent in their life, like an event or something that is trying to get that secret out, like out in the open.

[00:09:46] Amber: Yeah.

[00:09:47] Laure: Yeah.

[00:09:48] Amber: That's amazing because we know this is, this is true. Specifically being a Black American, African American, the trauma of enslavement and the Civil Rights movement, and the fact that it wasn't, it's not even really until my generation, like schools were desegregated when my dad was in high school. It's not that long, you know? And so that kind of pain that has been carried by so many Black Americans, I feel like is manifesting in a generation recently that is having a lot of clinical, like we're having space where we're for the first time allowed to breathe a teeny bit and those things are starting to resurface those secrets, that pain that was never addressed because our ancestors were in fight or flight like their whole lives. And I just think it's so important because like you said, we're kind of doomed to keep repeating it if the secret isn't uncovered. And what is that saying for, you know, future generations? How are we learning, how are we moving forward? So I absolutely agree with that. It's the hard work, the person who's going to uncover that. Yeah.

[00:10:53] Laure: It's the hard work. And it's also you know, again, in Constellation we look at the descendants and very often what's out of place is that they're trying to carry something that's too big for them. And it's out of love and out of loyalty and it's not conscious, obviously all those things are not conscious. They're passed down literally in the bones and in the tissue, but also in the, the family's. unconscious, if you will. You know, and when you enter a system, the family system, you have to belong to this system as a baby, right? Because you need to be fed and clothed and all of that. And so you'll pick up what you need to do in order to belong to this system.

[00:11:42] And part of that is out of survival and part of it is out of love. And very often the stance that you see in descendant is, I'm gonna help mom and dad, and grandma and grandpa. And it's not conscious. It's like, I'll help them carry this. But it's kind of like a little bit of a hubris, because all children are megalomaniacs and they think that they can do better and like carry better and like, you know, be stronger than their parents and stuff. And it's a little bit of hubris of saying, I can help you with that. When actually no. That's a really strong thing that we work with in general. And I feel like in the case of the Black community in the US and everywhere, let's be, let's be honest, clear. It is way too big for the descendants to take on cause it's already big to take on their life. You know, like that's enough. Like there's enough there. 

[00:12:38] Amber: There's enough happening. And it's, it's something that you don't even realize weaves its way into almost every aspect of your life or, and your triggers become things that for other people wouldn't be a trigger. I can't stand closed rooms where I don't know an exit. Like I can't do it. And I know a lot of people, I know a lot of black people have that where I know like, for example, my dad, he hates getting haircuts because it's a place where it's like, he's in the middle of a haircut. How does he get out? Like how do you escape? And this idea that anything could happen at any time and you're living like that all the time. It's hard. It's hard subconsciously and, and consciously. And then when I go to my therapist I switched to a Black therapist, which made a huge difference.

[00:13:23] And when you start to realize that actually the things we need to be talking about aren't even the things that are happening right now, it's the past. And how are we gonna work through that? Because if you're carrying all of it, you're never gonna address the issue in front of you. And so it's so interesting. I didn't know that's exactly what you worked on. And like completely a hundred percent agree on addressing that. And the idea that we wouldn't carry our ancestors with us. It doesn't make sense to me and like people who don't believe that I'm like, that's what a family line is. Really? But yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:01] Laure: But you know, what you're talking about, the thing of looking for an exit and all of that, those are functions of survival. Again, in constellations we say there's no dysfunction, what you call family dysfunction or dysfunction. It's never a dysfunction. At some point in the system, it was a function of survival. And so because the survival is the main goal of the family system, anything that's a function of survival gets passed down really strongly through the body

[00:14:30] Amber: Wow.

[00:14:31] Laure: Yeah. Right. And so another example of that is, for instance, I'm hyper mobile, you on my joints. I go all the way, which is not... It's like not great.

[00:14:41] Amber: Not great.

[00:14:41] Yeah. 

[00:14:42] Laure: So technically it's dysfunctional. But one day I went to see a, an osteopath, I don't remember, somebody in France and they were like who got committed in your family? Like involuntary committed. And I was like "my great-grandmother, why?" And they were like, oh, it's to get out of the straight jacket. The Hyperlaxity. I was like, okay, that makes sense to me! 

[00:15:09] Amber: That makes sense. No, it makes sense to me too. I just got, I got goosebumps because it's like thinking about that. No, that's a whole poem. That's a whole book. See see now I'm like, that is so interesting. So like, she was like involuntarily institutionalized and died. And then the hyper flexibility that you have is what she would've needed to like, get out like this, escape. It's beautiful and it's sad at the same time. Like, like you said, it's out of love. All these things

[00:15:38] Laure: Out of love and out of survival. It's like breadcrumbs that our ancestors are leaving behind for us to survive, except that they're not appropriate anymore. In the time that we are living in. And so that's for us to like sort through. Okay. And some things you can't, like, obviously I'm hyper , that's never gonna change, like I'm hyper mobile, but there's some stuff and that's probably what we do with Constellation is like to sort through, okay, I don't need this anymore. Thank you, I don't need this anymore. And this, yes, I really need it. 

[00:16:12] Amber: This is still useful. 

[00:16:14] Laure: I didn't mean to talk about my work so much in this podcast, but I thought it resonated so much with your work as well,

[00:16:20] Amber: Yes. No, I'm very interested in that.

[00:16:22] Laure: But another aspect of your, of your work that I really love is how you incorporate existing stories into your books. And for Me (Moth) that was more of like the origin story of the Diné, and then in We are all so good at smiling, they're like all the fairy tales

[00:16:40] Amber: Well, one, I just think that the stories of our ancestors and the stories, fairy tales that were crafted, that all have a lesson at the heart, are important to remember. And I think they're still relevant today. Specifically in Me (Moth), Sani and Moth both had very similar ways of looking at the world of the universe, their ancestors and the respects they had for it. And it really just made sense. But for me, as a person who practices Hoodoo, if I'm not putting history or ancestry in my story, it just doesn't work. I think that storytelling predates the written word by thousands of years. The stories that our families have told us, and the stories that get passed down. And then the stories, like for example, for Navajo, the Diné, like I had to talk to my aunt. And some of these stories aren't written down. Like these are stories that are, if you are not part of that community, oh, well. And there were stories in that one specifically, which I didn't share because it wasn't something that was for open conversation.

[00:17:43] And so the magic of that, the magic of your history, being an oral one is beautiful to me. And then also for fairy tales for We're all so good at smiling, I think that we often see fairy tales as childish the way that we branded them today, as for children. But fairy tales really are almost like fables that are teaching us lessons that we need to carry on or remember. And I think that whether it's Baba Yaga, whether it's Anansi the Spider who says "Be careful for witty people", like they're all telling you something. And I think that for me as a child having access to these stories, they taught me so much more about life than life did sometimes. And I thought that for Whimsy whose grandmother in the book practiced Hoodoo and who was like, no, Fae people are real, like this magical undertone in the world is real. They were really important to Whimsy and I think that they were the things that fortified her. And so in this garden, they were the things that she encountered. But yeah, I think that stories and fairy tales in particular carry history in a different way. Zora Neale Hurston said, who is a folklorist, she said that fairy tales carry the history of the people and History is like the history of the oppressor or whoever won. And I love the idea that the history of the people are stories that we know that we're supposed to extract meaning from. So yeah, that's why generally there is some sort of... I'm working on a fantasy series and it's still using history and stories within it because they're what make the world go round to me.

[00:19:22] Yeah.

[00:19:23] Laure: Yeah, and they also record part of the, cause it's really interesting to look at different layers of fairy tales or different versions because a lot of them have been Christianized.

[00:19:32] Amber: Right.

[00:19:33] Laure: And so aspects of them have been demonized. I'm thinking about Baba Yaga who wasn't a negative character at the beginning. I mean, I also work in shamanism and or a form of shamanism. And so the idea that Fae, those beings are real and part of the world. That's not just an idea. Like it's real, absolutely real. They're also part of our ancestry, depending on people. Not everybody has like ancestry that's out of this world, but, but, it's true, like it's real. And so I think it's really important to have that be present. I just really liked the way that you wove that into your writing and into your characters and how deep I felt your understanding of I guess the essence of those characters and those stories was.

[00:20:34] Amber: Hmm. 

[00:20:35] Laure: I could really feel it like it, it felt very present to me as I was reading the text. That's partly why I was so excited about the book cuz like, oh my God, somebody who can feel it. It was like, I could feel the embodied understanding of those stories through your writing.

[00:20:56] Amber: Thank you so much. That was the goal. That was the hope that that would happen. And it's interesting that you would say that because I did my audio book for Me Moth, and I did it for this one, and for this one it was, one of the hardest things I've done because I wanted my voice to be a little bit different for each character. You know, Baba Yaga can't sound like Anansi the Spider. They're different. And so, I'm not an actress , so it was more of sitting like with those characters and I remember they would, I would know which character I wanted to do and they would record and have like a sound bite. So like, next time I came back to it, I remember like, I could like do that. But like, yes, I think that every fairytale in the garden and in general has an essence about them that runs so deep cuz that story has been told by so many people. But the essence or the power that they bring to the page is what I wanted to get at. When you only have so much space, when you could write a thousand pages on each of these people the, the essence or the strength that they bring when they're on the page is really what I was trying to embody. So, like you saying that, thank you, thank you very much. I really was trying to make that happen.

[00:22:02] Laure: That's why I was so excited. And I thought immediately I was like, oh my God, I need to get her on the podcast. And I had no idea how to do that. And then it just happened. So it's just great.

[00:22:12] Amber: I'm glad it worked out. I'm really glad it worked out because everything you're talking about, like you know, there is a, a Fae people, like all these things that I believe that if I went on a regular podcast and said, people would be like, Amber, are you serious?

[00:22:26] Yes, I'm serious. Goodness. 

[00:22:28] Laure: Absolutely serious.

[00:22:29] Amber: I mean I also live in the country like on 20 something acres. So like I'm in the Appalachian kind of area, which is a whole thing as well. And my dog passed away last year, but I had a German Shepherd for 13 years and when we went on night walks, the things that we would see and I'd be like, let's just, you know, maybe it's time to turn around.

[00:22:48] Like, I think that when you're very connected, I do think that certain people just don't have access to, to certain things. And I think that it's just like tuning into a radio station. Some people are tuned in, some people aren't. And I do have this very deep belief that people's pets are like almost a very centering thing because they just work in their instincts so much. I do feel disconnected a bit more ever since my dog passed away, but like definitely a huge part of my life as well. And I definitely believe in everything that you were, you were touching on. Yeah.

[00:23:21] Laure: Yeah. And you're more or less connected also, depending on how magical your ancestry is. There's like a number of things that happen that make you more or less connected. And definitely pets can also make you more connected in the way that they're like a familiar, if you will, and they will kind of protect you also so that you have more ability to see and to be aware because you have more protection as well.

[00:23:45] So there's all that aspect. But talking about magic, would you talk a little bit about Hoodoo, because I'm more like on the Nordic shamanism side with my ancestry.

[00:23:55] Amber: Yes.

[00:23:56] Laure: So I'm, I'm actually really curious about 

[00:23:58] Amber: I think that what's beautiful about Nordic, African, African American, Scottish, like all of that, is that there is this deep seeded respect of nature in all of these. But Hoodoo specifically is an African-American folk magic system. So when enslaved Africans were stolen from Africa they weren't allowed to practice their own beliefs anymore.

[00:24:19] It was illegal. They would be killed or beaten for it, and so Christianity was forced on them. And so a lot of African Americans, enslaved African Americans, mixed together the traditions of west Africa with Christianity in this tradition that was called Hoodoo or Root Work. And basically it's this deep connection with ancestors so that when things are not going your way or you're down or you're sick, the ancestors are there to support you.

[00:24:53] And one of the strongest aspects of Hoodoo, which made it so dangerous, where some practitioners were, specifically in like the 1940s and thirties, arrested for practicing is that there is no good or bad, it's balance. So if someone harmed you in a way that your enslaver would, nothing that you do would be unfair to put or wish on them. And I think that there's a strength in that, of this idea that good and bad, no, there's balance, there's what people do to you and then how you can react. But it works a lot in plants. It's a closed system, so a lot of it is you have to find your own teacher. But the, I guess the more surface level is that it works with herbs and offerings to connect with your ancestors to receive messages and guidance and also strength. And also they can work within the spirit world to tilt the odds in your favor. To help you get through any sickness, or someone who's blocking your path. Outside of that, practitioners have spell work and rituals that involve a bit more things like bones and things like that to help people who don't necessarily practice, but to give them that same protection.

[00:26:06] So it works a lot in magic and ritual and ancestors. And it's something that I've always known about. My grandfather when he passed away. He's from South Carolina and that's a huge hub for Hoodoo and Root Work, but it wasn't until about five or six years ago that I actively... I guess my parents always said I was the witch in our family but I didn't realize that a lot of things that I was doing were Hoodoo until I started researching it. Because I never felt connected to witchcraft. I didn't have a word for it. It was just what I practiced. And so when I found that and really researched and found my own teacher elder to help me, the world really started to open up. And a lot of things started to make sense. So it's a really profound practice and the United States is so big, based on where you live in the United States, it's a little different. New Orleans Hoodoo is a little bit different than Virginia or South Carolina Hoodoo. And I'm working on a non-fiction book because I do think a lot of African Americans don't even know about it and they don't have access to it because that history was something that was hidden and you got punished for. And so I just want more people to know they have a very strong connection to their ancestors and they can have access to it.

[00:27:22] Laure: That's wonderful cuz it is lacking in the general understanding of things and self. And it's interesting that you were talking about the support of the ancestors and stuff . And I mean Constellation was actually created by a German man, but he had lived with the Zulu for 15 years and a lot of Constellation is based off what he observed. And we always kind of honor that lineage. But the notion of support from the ancestors and the strength from the ancestors because whatever your ancestors went through... cuz very often people are like, oh yeah, my family, there's so much tragedy, so much terrible things and it's all so heavy to carry.

[00:28:07] Amber: Hmm.

[00:28:07] Laure: And in Constellation we have this vision that actually all these people survived long enough for you to be here. So that means that there was a huge amount of strength. Cause otherwise they wouldn't have. And that that strength is available to you because you're their descendant. And so that's a little bit what I'm hearing what you're saying about Hoodoo and like that kind of strengths coming to you from the people who came before you. 

[00:28:33] Amber: And the history, like you were saying, because specifically if you're African American, your ancestors survived the middle passage somehow, and survived enslavement. And that, I get emotional talking about it because it's horrific. And you have access to that, like you were saying, these people lived and they loved and they still felt these emotions even though they were dehumanized and against all odds I'm still here. And that's insane to me. And so when I think about anything I have to face, the idea that all of that strength is inside of me and behind me at all times is the only reason I'm able to do half the things I feel like I can step into or try because of them. So amazing. And I also am always so, I don't know, like comforted and empowered by the idea that when we go back to these systems in so many different countries, they're the same. This respect for ancestry, this connection to ancestors. And it's only until like more modern things like Christianity come along that that break kind of happens. And it's like, in some ways it feels like it is trying to take some of our strength, but

[00:29:45] Laure: It is. It absolutely is. I suspect it's intentionally weakening.

[00:29:50] Amber: Hmm.

[00:29:50] Laure: Because it is. When people cannot fully take life from their parents and their ancestors. Which happens for a number of reasons, like partly because, you know, whatever happened was so terrible and so there's like this resistance or because the parents were abusive or whatever it is. But there's something about really taking life as the gift that it is from the people who came before you, that is extremely strengthening. And if you are kind of like pushing away a part of your ancestry for whatever reason, that ends up being really weakening to be like, no, not that. And it's a really interesting thing I think that we've lost that understanding of that knowledge. Because partly that means that we lose our place, or understanding of our place in our system and where we were born and that's also very weakening. And that creates people who are looking to... Who are more malleable. I feel.

[00:30:51] Amber: Mm. Yeah. I don't know. Whenever people talk about religion versus spirituality, it's like religion looks outside of yourself and spirituality looks inside. It's an inward thinking kind of thing. And I think that some people who don't want to look inside, they do, they still want a connection, but they go outside of themselves. And I don't know if that's always the best thing. To each his own, but definitely it does feel intentional, let's just say that. Yeah.

[00:31:18] Laure: Yeah. Yeah. So one question that I ask people and for you, I have kind of two questions within that question. The question is, if your life was a heroine's journey from birth to now, what would be your quest? What are you looking for that you lost when you incarnated and that you're trying to find again? And within that, I'm curious about your switch from meds to poetry. If you wanna talk about it. If you don't wanna talk about it, it's fine.

[00:31:54] Amber: Yeah. Okay. First thing, I was born like three weeks late. They had to induce labor. I was like, do I need to be here? I was definitely one of those child... Where my sister was like four weeks early, she's still like that, like running after things. I was a melancholy child. Like I didn't smile much. I loved my family. Didn't like many things outside of that. And the only real connection I had were to animals. I loved animals. Melancholy and very serious is what my, my mother always says, like, she got her master's degree when I was like three or four and she could study for like six hours and I would just entertain myself with toys. Like I didn't need other people. And so I think that that melancholy very quickly by the time I was five, six, turned into depression. And I feel like for me, I'm always, I was looking for something that I was missing and I feel like I'm carrying a burden from something from my ancestors, from when I was born.

[00:32:48] And I, I almost have this fear of joy, of too much of it, that it can go away, that it can evaporate like that. That if I am this joyful, how far is the fall when something bad happens? And so I was a very melancholy child, turned into a very depressed adult. And that's something I've been working on my whole life, is that joy is okay. And that self sabotage is real when you know the things that will bring you joy and you don't go after them, for example I know I want another dog. I've been watching rescues. A few have come up and I've been like, no, it won't work. I wouldn't get the dog. Like almost just denying myself these things that I know help me. So my journey would just be in finding joy and letting myself feel it, I think. And I think we're heading in the right direction. I feel good about that. And what was the second part of the question? 

[00:33:46] Laure: I was just curious about the, you switched from med school to poetry. Because that's, that's a huge change in self story, in like the story of who you are.

[00:33:58] Amber: So. I was a, I wanna say I was a junior in college. I was still pre-med. I had taken most of the science classes I had to take. I hated them. I'd done the dissections and all of the things, and the plan was to go to med school. The problem was my sophomore year, I took a poetry class for fun, and it was like breathing, like it was so natural to me and I couldn't, no matter what, even if I overloaded my schedule, I'd work in a creative writing class every semester, because that was the thing I was excited about every week. That was the thing I went to. I skipped some other classes, you know, and it started being one of my favorite things. And one of my teachers was like, you know, you might be able to make a career out of this. It's such a natural thing to you. You don't take any of the other classes. And so my junior year, I, I started thinking about it, but I was afraid of disappointing my parents, you know, like a doctor in the family. It's huge. It was something my grandparents wanted, something everybody really wanted. And then at some point during my junior year, I don't remember when I got into a car accident and it wasn't a bad one, thank goodness.

[00:35:04] But it was one of those things where I went to the hospital and I was like, I don't like it here. I don't like anything about this. I don't know that I could accept people's pain every day. I don't think I'm that kind of person. I think I would take someone's death as it was my fault every time. I don't think this is for me. So I talked to my parents and my mother was like, if you can show me a responsible 10 year plan on how you're gonna be a writer, we'll support you. But if you can't, because this is an artistic field, then you have to say, my parents paid for my college.

[00:35:39] I, I was like, okay. And I came up with the plan and they were like, all right, we're behind you 100%. So I switched like literally that week to English major with a creative writing minor and an African studies minor. Cause I wanted to learn more about African American studies as well, cuz it's not taught in the public school system. And I had to do 18 credits a semester to get it done in the right time, and I did, but I loved it. I loved it. And I applied to grad school right after and got my MFA at Emerson College in Boston. Soon after that, I went to the Furious Flower Poetry Center, which is a black poetry center in the United States. Worked there for a couple years and then I started, I got hired as a professor and then started writing my first books. Looked for an agent. All that kind of happened, but it was like the universe was like, "girl, we're gonna show you you don't like hospitals, you don't like it here. Like, it's not gonna be a big crash, but like, you hate it here. Like you can't wait to get outta this hospital. Why would you wanna be a doctor? That's not who you are." Yeah.

[00:36:38] Laure: And it was in keeping with your quest for joy.

[00:36:40] Amber: Yeah?

[00:36:41] Laure: In a way, you know, cuz the way you're talking about writing and the classes like," oh, that was fun". That was joy.

[00:36:48] Amber: That was joy. 

[00:36:49] Laure: So that kind of, you know, made sense.

[00:36:52] Amber: Right. And I think that also when we talk about ancestry, it's that my parents worked so hard so that my sister and I would have the opportunity to make decisions that brought us joy. And when the time came to test if they really believed that, they believed in me and they said that, no, this is okay. We want a doctor in the family. Maybe next time, maybe another time, but this seems to be the thing that you're supposed to do. And so yeah, I did. And then when I was in, at JMU, James Madison University, I was only in the poetry minor officially for one and a half years basically. And every year a senior gets the poetry award to like the most talented poet at the university. And I got it. It was one of those things where at one point I remember feeling, this feels unfair because poetry feels so easy to me. And so then when I got to grad school, that's where I was able to really take it seriously and challenge myself more. Not just, oh, I'm good at this, but really start to investigate how can I be the poet I want to be now.

[00:37:55] Laure: Yeah. And how can you teach it? Because that's a whole other... How do you even teach poetry? I'm not a writer, but I do write poetry and it comes really naturally to me. But I would be completely. remiss as to say, like, how , like how do you, you know, how do you have those eyes on? You know? It's like, how do you teach that? It's really interesting.

[00:38:15] Amber: That's interesting cuz tomorrow is my students their first workshop. So the first day that they're bringing their poems and we're talking about them, which is always my favorite day. But yeah, it's one of those things where I think I really try to teach that there's a difference between the poetry you write for yourself and the poetry that you want public. And so when you're bringing a poem for critique, you need to be thinking about larger implications. You need to be thinking about edits and how am I gonna make this better? And is this an echo to a Whitman poem or a Ross Gay poem? And what are you trying to do? And if the poem isn't doing what you wanted it to do, then maybe you have to go back to the drawing board. It's a bit more of a, at least when you're learning your own voice a critical kind of thing. But then I would say that when you get higher up in your skill as a poet, you trust yourself a bit more. So you're like, if my reader doesn't get it, this isn't the reader for me. Like it's okay. 

[00:39:05] Laure: Yeah, I know what you mean. 

[00:39:06] Amber: Like, but first you have to like get it, like first you have to understand it. And I think from my job teaching my students is just for them to start looking critically and then when they leave me be like, no, now you get to do what you want. Because now you understand your voice and you're so adamant in it. I say, no, this needs to be a sonnet. And you're like, it doesn't, and you're so adamant. Then it's time, you know now. Like you know what you're trying to do. And that's what makes me excited when they start becoming confident in what they know they're trying to create.

[00:39:35] Laure: Yeah. So basically you're teaching awareness. In a way, we have the same job where you're teaching people, you know, to be aware of themselves and to not be mindless about what they're doing and how they're doing it, but to actually have a choice and like choose intentionally what direction they're taking. 

[00:39:53] Amber: A hundred percent. And like awareness also. And my students come in, they're like, inevitably, I know tomorrow there's gonna be like three or four students who are like, I couldn't write a poem. I didn't have an idea. And I'm never mad about that like it's art. It's hard. But I'm like, you're telling me, you go through the whole world and you observe people every day and you see these giant trees on campus and you see that sunset we had yesterday and that rainbow that was last week and you have nothing to write about. Like once again, you're not being aware cuz there's a thousand poems around you. That awareness of living as well. The intentional part of it as an artist to just try to find meaning. Just like you told me this story about you have hyper flexibility and then your grandmother who was institutionalized, and I'm like, that's an entire novel right there. Just investigating that and like it could be a fantasy novel or something, you could do it however you want, but like there's a whole novel there just on this one tidbit of information someone told me. And so teaching them how to be observant and pay attention to what people are saying, so that they always have access to plenty of material because it's everywhere.

[00:41:05] Laure: Yeah. I love writing haiku's about moments. That's why I love Haiku is because, you know, I take like the most mundane moment and then I can remember it all my life basically from three lines.

[00:41:18] Amber: They're one of my favorites as well, because when we talk about joy, I remember when I went to grad school and I was sitting in a coffee shop and I was working on a poem that was driving me crazy and I looked up and people were walking by and I just felt pure joy in that moment. You know what I mean? And like when you write a haiku and you can remember that moment and keep coming back to it, it's almost like snapshots for yourself. Like a journal for yourself of your best moments in life. 

[00:41:43] Laure: It's like Instagram, but better cause it's so personal. It's like your own sensory perception of that moment.

[00:41:50] Amber: And all of that comes flooding back in when you read it. Yeah. I think I'm gonna give myself this homework to try to write like one a week. That would be, isn't that a beautiful thing? 

[00:42:02] Laure: I love it.

[00:42:03] Amber: It's your things to go back to, to remind you of your moments of joy.

[00:42:08] Laure: Yeah. All right, so last question.

[00:42:13] Amber: Okay.

[00:42:14] Laure: I could talk to you like we... 

[00:42:15] Amber: I know we're like going on and on. Yes.

[00:42:17] Laure: However you understand the word soul, when do you feel closer to your own soul? And when do you feel closer to other people's soul?

[00:42:28] Amber: Hmm, I was just talking about this in therapy. This is crazy how that works. I feel closest to my own soul when I'm in nature and alone and practicing Hoodoo actively. I'd say also with my familiar, who was my dog. So I'm feeling, like I said I'm bit disconnected now. We will be reconnecting soon, but I feel most myself, I feel most confident in solitude, but that solitude really isn't solitude. It's in making space for the voices of my ancestors to easily come through to get away from the noise. It's why I live in the country. It's why I love living in the country. And when I can just watch nature do its thing and grow my own plants or my own herbs that's when I feel most myself. I feel closest to other people. I have a bit of trouble with that one. Unless it's people like you, this is probably one of my more honest podcasts where there's a clear spirituality happening. I feel very open with people like that. And young people. I automatically feel open with people like that.

[00:43:36] Everyone else in between, I think I have a bit more of a wall. So when I'm teaching my students and we're on a roll and someone's laughing and like, there's just camaraderie in the classroom. And there's just vibration. Like I feel very connected to my students, or when I am living in the world normally and I run into one of my students, which happens a lot cause I've been a professor for almost 10 years now. How that connection comes back like that of teacher student, but also of respect that we have for one another. I respect young people as completely full human beings. And so yeah, around young people, I feel most connected and around people who are also spiritual. I'm currently taking a herbalism class to get my certificate in medicinal herbology, and so in class I feel very connected to people. But I think that in a lot of my life, outside of teaching and outside of being with like-minded people, I actually am quite disconnected. I don't really trust my feelings or my beliefs or myself. So I often put a bit of a wall up for protection.

[00:44:44] I live in the South, so there's a lot, there's a lot going on. So there is this protective layer that goes up. But I will say with all young people, I generally feel very ... I have a lot of faith in the next generation. So I feel they're wonderful. It's also why I write first. My first books have been for young adults cuz I just have so much respect for them and their internal worlds and what they're experiencing and everything.

[00:45:10] Laure: Yeah. It shows

[00:45:11] Amber: Thank you. They're wonderful. Do love those kids.

[00:45:15] Laure: They are. I wrote in the guest prep if you wanted to read something, but I don't know if you've prepared something at all.

[00:45:22] Amber: So, yeah, I did see that. So it was funny for Moth. I could barely read from it cuz there's the twist at the end that everyone is always surprised about. And these poems in We're all so good at smiling. I was realizing run a bit long. I didn't realize that until recently. But the very first poem is a bit long, but there's like the last four stanzas that I really love of it. If you'd like me to read that, I can do that.

[00:45:47] Laure: Yes, please. That will be, the last word of the podcast.

[00:45:50] Amber: All right, so this is the last four stanzas of the first poem called "Call me magic, call me Whimsy".

[00:45:58] This is the thing. Sometimes it gets bad. Roots mingle with strange soil, and you don't trust your hands with your skin. Sometimes that means you're admitted into a hospital to be watched and watched, and watched and watched, to talk and talk and talk, and to sometimes break. It's like grandma said, when we sat legs crossed, like cherry stems at the edge of the forest where toothy fog had already begun to seep into the soil.

[00:46:30] Hoodoo is real. Witches and Fae people too. Fairy tales are real. Magic is real, but be careful, Whimsy. Sometimes your own mind will unroot you. This is what I think: I'm Whimsy. I am magic, just like my name, but I am not whimsical anymore.

[00:46:54] Laure: Thank you so much for coming. 

[00:46:58] Amber: Thank you. It's been wonderful. It really has.