The Family Constellations series : Seeing the Truth of the Body, with Bill Mannle

🌳In this episode, I speak with constellation facilitator Bill Mannle about how family constellations can shift the story we carry in our bodies. We talk about how the cycle of fear and shame sometimes makes it harder to heal, and we touch on what therapists and facilitators end up representing for clients, and how we manage our own projections in the context of our work.

On April 15th, Bill is doing an online workshop on "Making peace with your ex" :
https://fb.me/e/13wDhAZzx

He's also starting a Facilitator Training in October:
https://billmannle.com/2023-2024-CONSTELLATION-FACILITATOR-TRAINING.php

🧶Follow Bill online:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bmannle/
Website: https://billmannle.com/
Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/groups/constellationswithbillmannle

✨Here are all the links to things Bill and I talk about in this podcast:
To kill a mockingbird: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS_nqbtborc
Bertold Ulsamer : https://www.ulsamer.com/family-constellation/order-in-love/
Gestalt therapy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_therapy
Kenshō : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensh%C5%8D

If you have no idea what constellations are, I recommend listening to S1 Ep5: Family mythology, the told and the untold or read more about it here : https://www.laureporche.com/modalities

🎬You can also watch :
Another self : https://www.netflix.com/fr-en/title/81380432
Ep 5 of Sex, Love and Goop: https://www.netflix.com/fr/title/81459349
This great video on hidden loyalties by Shavasti: https://youtu.be/Sd7umLz77Cw

❔For any questions or requests for this series, you can reach me through my website http://laureporche.com

Get notified when the Silken Mirror membership opens in 2023 : http://eepurl.com/dxzCk9

Follow us on Instagram @moonlitpathchannel

This podcast is hosted by Laure Porché: http://laureporche.com. You can follow me on Instagram @laureporche
If you're enjoying the podcast, consider sharing it or leaving a review on Apple Podcast :)

Transcript

Laure: 0:54

Today on the podcast I am happy to welcome Bill Mannle, who is a Gestalt and marriage and family therapist as well as an international trainer and facilitator in family constellations. I've known Bill for a few years and I've worked with him several times and I love his body centric approach to the work and the way that he explores constellation's deeper spiritual and heart opening nature. Hi, Bill. It's so good to have you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast,

Bill: 1:28

Well, thank you for inviting me. Happy to be here.

Laure: 1:30

Yeah, my pleasure.

Bill: 1:31

Hmm.

Laure: 1:32

So as you may know, I usually dive straight in by asking the first and foremost question of this podcast, which is, what is your favorite story and what do you think it says about who you are?

Bill: 1:47

My favorite story. Oh my goodness. I'm gonna have to think about that. I have a lot of favorite stories. Well, my favorite film, actually, my favorite book is To Kill a Mockingbird. And of course the film is a study of its day. I think it's just about a man who was Atticus Finch, who was a man of his time in the south, a lawyer who was up against his own sort of value system in the, the whole structure of the south in the thirties, forties. And having to defend Tom, who's a black man wrongly accused of sexually assaulting a woman and just having to find out, stick to his truth. So there's something about that for me. Yeah, I, I probably will think more about it. There's something about being able to stand in that and, and say your truth when you have to. And sometimes we don't all the time, but sometimes we have, we come up to the line. And we have to say no, or this isn't okay and risk, whatever, whatever comes. And sometimes we do it in small moments, no. Um, We're talking to a friend or maybe our partner and we're up against something and we have to speak it. For me, there's something about it, and I just, Atticus as written in that story is a man who I think is up against conflicts, and I think it's very human, you know. What do I do? These are people I grew up with. These are my friends, and yet what is happening in front of me is not okay. It's wrong. There's so there's something about that for me, you know?

Laure: 3:26

Hmm. I like that. And I, I find it interesting also because I think being a Constellation facilitator, it's a practice in saying the truth, really. Right?

Bill: 3:36

I agree. And it's taken me a while to get there. I mean, even training as a psychotherapist, when do you hold up the mirror and say, I think what's happening is not okay, and look what you're doing to yourself, but in, in constellations it's being able to deliver something as you see it without bias, the best as you can, and, and that often is not experienced well, but what do you do? I mean, I think we have to, if we fold, then the work has less meaning.

Laure: 4:11

It's also not our role. You know, I think it's Jane Peterson who taught me that, but I think somebody else said that you're not here for your clients to like you, you're here for them to trust you.

Bill: 4:21

I agree. I agree with that. It's taken me a while to just, in my journey as a psychotherapist, you know, I wanna be liked, it took a while. I think it's a part of maturity to realize, no, this is not what the work entails. The work entails, if I'm a guide, to use the metaphor, I'm gonna point you, you'll keep walking that way. You're gonna go off the cliff. You don't have to listen to me. But here's the truth, that movement is gonna take you here and they can get mad at you. And that's okay. That's OK.

Laure: 4:48

Yeah. And also sometimes, and I'm thinking especially in in family constellations, sometimes you have to state truth that might be very difficult to hear about the person's system or about somebody's fate. You can see that there's nothing to be done that is actually the fate of that person. In my experience, it's always strengthening and I've rarely had someone react badly to something that was really true. There's grief. There can be a lot of things, but like, there's very rarely pushback.

Bill: 5:22

And I think in extreme cases it's my experience, it's freeing. So someone who's facing like either they have a, a medical diagnosis that literally means they're gonna die soon, or someone in their family, when you can say it, there's like a relief. It's like, I'm not bullshitting you. Have you faced your death? Have you faced your husband or wife's death or your partner's death? And I think there's a, well, what I've seen is there's a, there's a release because okay, everybody else is saying, oh, you'd be fine. It's good, blah, blah. And then there's like a freedom that comes with, it doesn't make it less painful. It becomes clear. I don't have to live an illusion. This is happening. And I think there's something to that. You just hold up and say, this is what's happening. This is your fate. Or her fate. Or his fate. Mm-hmm.

Laure: 6:09

Yeah. And I really believe that people know what's true or not in their body. You know, I can see it with my clients all the time that they come in and they're in denial and that, you know, everything's fine. And...

Bill: 6:19

Isn't everything fine?

Laure: 6:21

Yeah, right. But somewhere they know that it's not actually true. And I agree that it's such a relief to have someone say It's not true, and it's okay. It's okay. That not everything is fine because the message of society and everything, and you would talk about death. And I feel that's something that's really strong. The message of society in general is like death is not okay and things should be fine.

Bill: 6:45

Western culture. Exactly.

Laure: 6:46

Yeah. And I think there's a tension there between the reality that... you can feel reality, right? Reality is reality and it's always gonna win, and then all that tension that goes against reality that says, no, this shouldn't exist. This shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be. And it's, I think it's restful to have someone who can hold reality with you.

Bill: 7:07

I agree, and I think, I mean, it's, it's freeing if something happens, there's a release. I can cry. I, I don't have to pretend, I don't have to, you know? It also works with people, when there's trauma, personal trauma, what I've witnessed, and I've learned this from Bertold Ulsamer, you know, let's say it's sexual abuse or it's physical abuse or war or something, but let's say it's sexual abuse. We want to distance ourselves from it, it's over and I don't wanna deal with it and it's painful. When a client or a person can say I was there. It happened to me." Something shifts. There's almost an inner strength that are, yeah. Okay. It happened. We're not talking about good, bad, or indifferent. We're just talking about the facts. And the facts are I was there if it is war,"I was there. I witnessed it. I saw it, it happened." There's almost an out breath and maybe tears come, but something gets released because, I'm recognizing the truth of what happened. Then the story starts to break up. Like, I wish it didn't happen, shouldn't have happened, if only. So I think there's something about just the facts. It happened. It's okay. And you know, it happened to you. You were there, you witnessed it, you experienced it. It doesn't diminish the pain of it, but something shifts in how we relate to it.

Laure: 8:24

Yeah, absolutely agree. I think I was in that training with you, with Bertold And you were talking about the story. This whole podcast is about story and in general I'm very curious about story and I like to look at life through the lens of stories. I'm curious to know what you feel about that. I feel in Constellation, you're dismantling some harmful stories or some stories that are untrue and then you are creating a new story for people. And I wonder like how you feel about that and how stories plays in your work in how you understand Family Constellation and family systems in general?

Bill: 8:54

Yeah, I've moved into that a lot. I mean, I should do a workshop on"who are you without your story?" And I, I wanna be really clear, I mean, the word story is used a lot. I'm not talking about"how your parents met" story, immigration stories,"how they fell in love on the boat over here", or they met during war, or how you met your partner. Those are romantic. They're myths in the family, and those are, we tell'em to our grandchildren and those things are fine. I think it's when there's like deep trauma in a, in a system or there's generational trauma or we're entangled emotionally with our mother because she lost her mother when she was five or she had to flee her country. And so we grow up taking care of her. We get entangled with her emotions. Or it's our own personal trauma too. We create a story around that. We create an identity. And what I've seen in constellations, when that entanglement starts to unravel the story changes. It can be unnerving because your role, your identity is all caught up in the entanglement in the story. So who am I now? My role is shifting. And usually what I see, what I witness when the story changes, let's say it's about your personal trauma, when you relate to the trauma in a different way, something happens in the body. And usually what people say is, I feel lost. I don't know who I am. I feel like I'm wandering. Of course I wanna celebrate that because that's exactly, you're leaving some place and now you're wandering in the desert or you're on this plateau to use a metaphor. And it's scary. But in that space, there's also possibilities. It's excitement. So I, I always tell people just to trust it. Yeah. Something is shifting. You might go into an existential crisis because the who you were or who you thought you were and your role you played, or how you needed to protect yourself from the past, that's all crumbling. That's all shifting and, and something new is about to emerge. So I ask that question, said, okay, there's a story here, but do you really need to carry that story anymore? Are you connected to being that victim? Did you create a story around it to protect yourself? And I understand we need to protect ourselves, but is it still necessary?

Laure: 11:12

Mm-hmm.

Bill: 11:12

And sometimes that's what story serve is a protection but again, I ask, is it, is it still necessary?

Laure: 11:18

Yeah. And especially since very often those stories are interpretation of what we perceived very often as children. And so it's a story that's created through a child's eyes, with very limited understanding of what is actually at play very often and also very unconsciously. And then, you know, that story kind of starts becoming a thing of its own, where it's becomes your whole identity and it becomes your relationship rather than being able to experience the world without filter in a way, or to experience the relationship without filter. We have like all those ideas. And all those stories about what is actually happening. And I remember the first constellation I ever did was in France actually with someone that I really didn't like, which is why I never considered training in constellations until I met Francesca.... but I represented in somebody's constellation. It was like a 10 children's situation. And so that person came in, her problem was like, my mother didn't love me. That was the thing."She didn't, she didn't love us. Like she didn't want us to go into her room. She didn't want us to touch her things. She kept us at a distance and all of that". And then what happened, what showed up in the constellation, and I think I was representing the mother in her sibling line, and what was happening is that there was a lot of incest in this family, like brothers, sister, and father in like every which way. And so what came out in the constellation is that her mom actually felt like she was damaged and she was unclean, and that she absolutely had to protect her children against that. And so that out of love, she kept them at a distance so that they wouldn't be tainted by what happened to her. I had similar dynamics with my mom. And so that was actually more impactful that the constellation that I did for me, I don't even remember what I did. But I remember that moment of really feeling or understanding that my own story about my mother was completely off, and that most likely the same thing had happened. And the way that it kind of shifts everything on its axis and suddenly you're like, okay, wow, this is completely new information, you know.

Bill: 13:28

Well, cause I think children, you know, when we're young, we want the attention, we need the attention, we need the affection, and we don't understand what's happening. So we feel the pain, the loss, you know, dad's not home. So, and what I think Constellation does is open up a bigger space where we can see now as adults, we can go, oh, now I get it. Now I see. Then it makes sense. And again, something in the body relaxes. You can see your mother or father, whatever the situation, in a different light. And the pain starts to diminish a little bit, the wanting, the wishing and starts to diminish. Cause that's what gets people stuck as we, especially with parents. We both know people who the parents may be dead 20 years and they're still wishing they had different parents. And that's the kind of suffering you're still holding onto that eight year old, seven year old who wishes she had a different parent. And when you can see something like this through a constellation, you can go My mother in the best way she knew how, was loving me and really trying to protect me. Of course, I didn't understand" you know.

Laure: 14:31

Yeah, it is quite common, most people I see more or less consciously are just still wishing that they had different parents and like, they're still hoping, they have like an unconscious hope that they're gonna relive their childhood with different parents. And all their decisions basically is based on that hope.

Bill: 14:48

Yeah. Exactly. And they still hold onto it. And I think we've all gone through that. I mean, when we can just see our parents as human and flawed and people. Maybe there's moments when you, you have a memory of something that was missing in your childhood. There's a sadness, but the sadness doesn't grip you anymore, and there's no wish behind it. It doesn't, it doesn't take up your focus. You can go, okay, And it moves like away. It just moves away. And it's not, it's not organizing your thoughts of your life, or you're not looking to a partner to give you what your mother couldn't give you.

Laure: 15:22

Yeah. I feel that in, in order for things to move though, that is so important for the story in the body to be heard. And it's partly, I, I really like your work because you also come from somatic experiencing, right?

Bill: 15:36

I never trained in it, but, you know, training in, in traditional psychotherapy, I was originally trained in Gestalt long before somatic experiencing became a thing. Soma therapies have been around, but Gestalt was always around looking, paying attention to what we would call body movements or physical retroflections, how stuff is trapped in the body, certain movements, and I pay attention to that. The body's trying to tell me something. And sometimes it's really big and sometimes it's subtle. But I also trained with Bertold and I, I wanted to train with someone who had trained in somatic experiencing with how they put it in constellations..

Laure: 16:14

Yeah, and I think that's very present. Cause I've worked with Bertold as well. But I find, I mean in what I've experienced of your work you are even less focused on the story actually. Like, you know, what people will say about the event or whatever. And you just go like straight to the body and what they're feeling. And even in the way that you work with the representatives, you don't use a lot representatives in the sense that, you know, you don't ask them a lot of questions, you don't let them talk a lot compared to other facilitators. Even myself, like I actually, I rely on representatives a lot. And I wonder if that's something that you know, you always worked that way or your work evolved in that way, or, you know, what did you find in that shift? Where I can see you're almost only working from the client's body in the constellation and, and the client's body's reaction to the movement and what's happening.

Bill: 17:05

When I first started out, of course I was, you know, eager to set up generations and many people in the field. And it doesn't mean I don't do that. For me personally, I always start small and then I may add. The more people I add, I have to be very aware of it could be too much for me. There's too many things going on. And if I get a little dysregulated, not because of constellation is heavy or deep, it's just there's too many moving parts and I just, I tell my trainees, it's good to know this about yourself. Then I, I'm not gonna be able to do my work. It's okay, this is just happening. And it could be something's happening in the field, but sometimes it's just too many things you have to pay attention to. So there's that. But it doesn't mean I, I won't go there. But something I pick up in the client and I think it's just devolved of just going right to the heart of the matter. What is it? What is it that you're telling me, but what is it your body's telling me? And sometimes what you're telling me is in conflict with what your body's telling me. So I go to the body first. And you may not be in touch with it, and you may say, yeah, okay, let's see, here's what I'm seeing. And, you know, let's go there. I mean, I've done bigger pieces because they're necessary, or cuz there's something missing and I don't know. Well, what's here, what's here, what's here? I mean, I'll, I'll share a piece. Is that okay?

Laure: 18:25

Yeah.

Bill: 18:25

Yeah, so I, it was a few years ago and this woman, you know, the issue was with her mother. Never looked at her, never paid attention to her. And she said, I can speak for my siblings and I, you know, what happened to your mother, blah, blah, blah. Nothing, any generational stuff. Looking for those historical events that could have pulled the mother out. And I said, so let's set up your family. So I figured maybe the information would come. So I set up the entire family. Her and the woman and their father, I think she had three siblings, but the representative for her mother, you know, was looking, turned completely around, was looking off in the corner, and she goes, well, that's my mother. And she never looked at us. I said, all right. So I grabbed a representative, turned out to be a man, and I put way over in the corner to where the woman as a representative, the mother was looking, and the mother started crying. And I said, does that make any sense? And now the, the client said, okay, now I get it. My mother was 16, she got pregnant and her parents made her give the baby away. It's her firstborn. And it was a boy. And now everybody turned towards the boy

Laure: 19:34

Yeah.

Bill: 19:35

And the, the whole constellation shifted. So I will do those bigger pieces, especially if there's like,"let's experiment". Well let's bring everything in and see.

Laure: 19:43

I wasn't saying that you didn't do big pieces. Cause I've seen you do that, I'm just saying I feel like the word factor is less than in other constellations that I've seen. You know, there's like, there's less talking from the representatives. There's less healing sentences and all of that. And it's very efficient. It's a very graceful way to work. And, and I like that it's really client-centered, you know, that you're kind of really looking at the client's body. It's easy when you're working in Constellation, I mean, I guess especially when you were starting out, but to kind of get lost into the generations and then you're working with the great-grandfather and the great-grandmother and the client is over there and is like, great. You know, but it's like not actually, it doesn't concern them.

Bill: 20:27

Yeah. And I think that's important cuz the client carries the system. So if the client dissociates or is not looking, the constellation could look fabulous, but I've lost the client. For whatever reason, it's overwhelming. It's too much, it's traumatic or it's, it's activating a trauma.

Laure: 20:42

Or it's none of their business. Sometimes it's just something is happening four generations back, but it's not actually what's going on in this person's

Bill: 20:49

No. It's, it's not what's going on, so I just start there. Someone says to me, oh God, it takes a long time to, this was at a recent workshop. It takes a long time to heal. And I said, no, it doesn't. I said, yes, it could be painful, it's scary because it could be painful and I think we're afraid of the pain. And someone said, what about happiness? I said, yeah, it's the same. We resist it, for all kinds of reasons, the joy for all kinds of reasons, so I'm interested in just what is it you need right now? What, what is it you're bringing, you're carrying and you really want to leave or move through? And so that's what's important. I'm paying attention to you, and a constellation will show you something or offer you something that wi ll help you take the next step. That's it.

Laure: 21:38

Yeah. Cuz I mean, what is healing? People who come in and they're like, how many sessions is it gonna be? And I'm like let me tell you. I've been at this for 25 years. You know, I don't think you reach an end point. Just take one more step and one more step and one more step and one more step. And each step is stronger and is more authentic and is more present than the first

Bill: 22:02

No, I agree.

Laure: 22:04

So you come from a therapeutic background.

Bill: 22:07

I first started out being an actor. I started in college, right? I think I told everybody that once, theater, art, art, music, and drama theater, theater tried to do that and then that never worked and I was married right outta college, but when my marriage was ending, I went into therapy and my therapist said, you, you might be good at this. And I started making efforts in that direction.

Laure: 22:30

So I'm curious about when you discovered Constellation, because I, I find that Constellation is really different from a psychotherapeutic approach. I know you can marry the two and I know some psychotherapists work very psychotherapy, particularly with Constellation. But I don't find that's your case necessarily. And so I wonder when you discovered it, first, what drew you to it and then what shifted in your approach maybe to people or to, you know, what you'd been trained in?

Bill: 23:00

That's an interesting question because well, when I first saw it, my mentor had found it in the late nineties, Ed Lynch, and he actually studied with Bert Hellinger when Bert was offering a training in 99 in New York City and many of the top facilitators we know now in the US, Suzy Tucker, Dan, Booth Cohen, Eve Marie Elkin, they're all studied and they're all in that cohort. And he started offering workshops and it felt very familiar in terms of using representatives, having come from an improvisation background, experimental theater. And I said, oh, this is familiar. And to me, it wasn't psychotherapeutic, because traditional psychotherapy is, you know, you work with someone over a period of time. And what I liked about constellations have actually incorporated that idea that psychotherapy doesn't have to be ongoing long. It can be short as long as it's client centered and looking towards what are the client's strengths. and sometimes they're stuck and they can't see beyond the stuckness. But when you, when we can invite them through the constellation experience, they can see beyond it and something shifts for them, I think in the, in the actual practice of it. Yes. And as you know, strong emotions come up, trauma comes up. But it all is contained. It's contained. It's not group therapy where people process and go back and forth and make comments. It's, it's a very contained process and I think there's something about that that allows you to stay regulated and to stay sort of within your own container. And I'm not talking about, questions and answers about a, a structure or something like that, but I think the invitation is you step outta your comfort zone, you do this work and something shifts for you and you allow yourself to ride that wave out. So in that way it's different. It's not an ongoing process. And for me, I mean, you know, people sit in the, in the group, I don't know anything about them. And so I'm not gonna go into a psychotherapeutic mode. Here's what I can offer you. Here's what constellations can show. Here's a journey you could take to take the next step as we were talking about. And that's the invitation. I mean, some people can say it's a brief therapy in some way, but I, I think it's something different.

Laure: 25:12

Yeah, I agree. For me, it works on a wider level and multi-dimensionally as well. And depending on who you are working with of course, but there's the, the soul aspect to it that's really important. And I wonder about, okay, so what's for you, constellation, psychotherapy, everybody combined. what is the most common and the most harmful story that people carry or feed within themselves?

Bill: 25:37

Harmful story. Just tell me more, you, what do you mean harmful?

Laure: 25:41

What's the most recurring story that people have within themselves that is keeping them from really stepping into their life or themselves?

Bill: 25:52

It, it's on a couple levels. It's probably a deep loyalty, that they're ingrained in the system, the fear, the fear of if I do this, I'll be totally disloyal. And sometimes this loyalty is unconscious. It won't allow them to take the next step. And the body, we'll go back to the body again. The body is sending us signals, uh oh. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. But it's also by doing it, by taking that step something will happen and usually that will relax you. So fear, I guess fear and we create the fear. Fear becomes a story. Fear especially with personal trauma. Cuz with personal trauma there could be shame and it's a whole nother level. Now people are starting to really work with it in constellations. Shame if, if I don't do it, I'm gonna feel ashamed. And if I do do it, I have to deal with the shame. And that keeps you locked in, in a way. And that can be very difficult. And for me, and I think you've seen this. I, in, in this invitation to a client, like if I say you're in charge. I'm just to guide. Anytime you need to stop, we'll stop. That can be confusing in a way, like Okay. If I stop, then people are gonna think, I don't have the courage to go on. And if I, if I don't stop, then there's something wrong with, you know, whatever. I mean, it just, it's that internal struggle and I've seen it and maybe in the ongoing psychotherapy that you could work with that, but that is very difficult to work with in a constellation. But sometimes if I really think the information or the client is, is struggling, I'll stop. At their protest I will stop it. I said, Nope. We have three days. We can pick this up tomorrow. Your body's telling me it's too much. I wanna keep going, I'm gonna stop. And that can trigger that fear and shame. Like, oh, something's wrong with me. He's telling me I can't do it. It can get a little complicated.

Laure: 27:44

Yeah. Especially since I feel like one of the societal stories that we have, right, is that we have to obey authority. I mean, it's ingrained very, very early on and whether you want it or not, when you're, when you constellation facilitator or a therapist or whatever you are in that place, you know, people put you in that place. Even if you don't want to, even if you do a setup so that they won't, it's like it's impossible.

Bill: 28:09

I think it's good for us as facilitator to recognize that that's happening. It, it may be more blatant with some people, but just accept I'm a man of a certain age, so I'm either dad or grandpa. I have to accept that.

Laure: 28:21

Yeah. And it's capital. Because if you are saying, oh no, I don't have any power over people, first it's a lie, and then you risk doing harm because you are, you know, in your unawareness or in your refusal to kind of own that. That's where things go wrong usually. But what you were saying about people, you know, not being able to stop something, that's very true because you can preframe and say, Hey, you are responsible here. You're responsible for yourself. Like you have to know, you have to know where to say no. But anyone who comes in with trauma and difficulty to set a boundary, like with their own parents because whatever, they were enrolled or they enrolled themselves as like daddy's helper, mommy's helper, whatever. They will not necessarily be, have the capacity to say, no, stop. I don't want this. This is too much. First cuz they don't even know themselves a lot of the time. And then second, cuz going up against authority in front of a group is like out of their range basically.

Bill: 29:24

Well, it's that the authority, but it's also, so if it's personal trauma, it's I want to please you, you, the facilitator, me the facilitator, I need to please you. So I'm gonna say no, I, I can do it. Here's the subtle and not so subtle part, when they agree to please me, the rage comes up inside. Now, I may not show, but now they're angry. And if you can recognize it. Okay. Let's, we'll stop. It's okay. No, no. And then the shame comes in, well, I'm quitting. I can't do this. And then, and that's probably going back to your question, that's probably the most difficult. So I have to go back to our original thing: you can not like me, but I'm stopping the constellation. I have to, and we can come back to it because pushing it forward is, you know, it's, it's not okay. It's not okay.

Laure: 30:12

No, but that again, you have to be able to recognize as a therapist that you are pushing forward, you know, you have to be able to see it in their body. I thought Bertold's training that we did together. So we did a training together that was about constellation and trauma with Bertold Ulsamer, and I thought that was invaluable because I remember he spent the first five days of the training teaching us when not to do a constellation. And people were not happy about it, but I thought that was so important to just be able to see in the person's body, is this okay? Can we do this? Do they have capacity for it?

Bill: 30:47

Well, and I think that's important too cause in that moment, and you've probably seen me do this in that moment, just the conversation with the person, whether it's across the group, if it's a small group or they're sitting next to you, just the conversation is important. And sometimes that's all that's necessary. And you can see it all of a sudden the client lets out of breath and I said maybe this is enough. Yeah. They're being noticed. They're being seen. I did this piece of work, going back to the body, I was in Romania recently and there's like 53 people in the circle and over to my right there's this woman and I'm just giving my welcome speech and I'm glad to see everybody, see familiar faces and this, that and the other thing. And she had this body movement, like a tic. And I said, I was aware of that. I said, oh, that's interesting. So okay. Kept talking and was happening again. Now, I don't know if that was just something physical, but I, I was curious about it and then I noticed she was sort of softly weeping. And I said, okay, this is my first constellation or my first piece of work. So I went over and asked the person sitting next to her, can I sit here? Yeah. And I asked permission like I always do to put my hand on her back, didn't say anything. She was weeping softly and she turned towards me and had this movement of leaning in, so I just trusted myself. I reached out and I pulled her into me and put her head here on my chest and she just sobbed for 10 minutes. That was it. Now I was thinking that I'm either representing her father or father Energy, and she pulled away, had a smile on her face and I said, we good. She said yeah. We never talked and sat down. She did say during the break, she goes, I needed to do that work, it was about my dad. I said, oh, I was wondering. And of course people came up to me who were new in training. What was that? What did you do? I said, it's years and years of training. It's trusting that too. There was a no word, but the body was trying to, wanting. It was a movement. It was a longing.

Laure: 32:44

Yeah. It's trusting it and it's also being willing to represent yourself. I find, you know, yeah, that's, I'm, I'm just now I'm, I'm just starting to slightly step into that, like I've been facilitating for about seven years and until now I never felt like, yeah, I I can sometimes step in and represent something cuz I didn't feel like I had the capacity to do both. But I find that it's really helpful and, and more and more I have the capacity to do that, so.

Bill: 33:14

I would embrace that. Stephan Hausner would say when he is sitting with someone and they're talking about their grandfather, he would say back in the day, he would go into represent of the grandfather just a little bit, just to feel that energy, while he's doing the interview. I think there's something about that. You could make it overt and say, oh, I'm, I'm going to sit here or just do it quietly, I'm feeling stuff about the mother. You could share it or just know that there's, you know. I think if we embrace it, if you feel comfortable with it, I think it's a good thing. Now, in individual sessions in my office, I do go into representation, but I'm gonna stand here as your dad just to see what's coming up for me, and then I'll step out.

Laure: 33:52

Mm-hmm.

Bill: 33:53

And then share what I've witnessed, you know?

Laure: 33:55

Yeah. I do that more willingly. It's easier to manage I find, but but yeah. And it's also interesting cuz it always asks the question of when do our work as facilitator, our personal work and the work that we are doing for people, intersects all the time. I find.

Bill: 34:13

Yeah. I think, that's key is to notice if you're getting activated.

Laure: 34:17

Yeah.

Bill: 34:18

Yeah. Another thing about representation is to know that you'll be representing someone even though you don't feel like it. Many years ago I was conducting a workshop, and it was man and his father, and I was was standing right next to him and was offering him a sentence. And he turned to me as angry. Leave me the fuck alone. And I realized, Ooh, I'm not Bill. I'm representing someone. So I stepped out and I pulled a rep in. I said, I don't know who this is, but I pull it in. So some other piece. So it's good to know that too. You know, you're feeling fine and all of a sudden they get really irritated at you. The same thing happened, I was doing a circle. And one man sitting next to me goes, ah, you really irritate me. And I'm thinking, okay, was I saying something irritating and stuff? I said, okay, I have an experiment. So I picked another man, and I stood behind the man, had him stand up, and then I stood to the side, I said, this is your father. And I stepped out. He goes, oh yeah. He was projecting.

Laure: 35:14

Yeah, transferring.

Bill: 35:15

Yeah, the father on me. And so we did a piece of work around that. But I think it's good for us to recognize that, you know, like you said in the beginning, people are gonna put on us all kinds of stuff and not to push it away, just know it's gonna happen.

Laure: 35:28

Yeah. And because you can't push it away. You know, I, When I first started out, I was very concerned about transference and counter transference cuz I had had a very bad experience with a therapist that I had transferred on. And so I was really trying or hoping that I could keep my clients from transferring onto me. And I asked that question to my craniosacral teacher, Gary. I was like, how do you keep people from transferring on you? And he said this to me, he said, you are always gonna be somebody for somebody. And you're just like, I just gotta accept. Just it's fine. You know, just accept it cuz he's like very Californian and very neutral. All about neutrality, all about like, it's cool. Cool. Great. But that was really helpful to me cuz it was, you know, it kind of drove home without tension that. It's just a fact of the work and it's fine it doesn't have to be dangerous as long as you know

Bill: 36:23

I think, you know, it's gonna happen. I mean, traditional psychoanalysts, that was the gist of their work, hoping that there would be a transference and they would work with a transference. The difficult part is when we counter transfer, when we transfer to our client, yeah. And that's when we go to supervision. Right? Why do I hate Wednesdays at four? Cause this client keeps showing up. That can happen in a group. And I think we have to know ourselves. It goes back to what you said about doing our own work and knowing, okay, this is not my mother, this is Judy here, she's in my circle. I don't know her. So I'm just putting that over here. But that, that happens almost instantly.

Laure: 37:00

Yeah, I had a client once that I was working on the table. Cause I also do body work and craniosacral, energy work. Mm-hmm. And I was working on him and sometimes I have clients that are more clairvoyant than I am, very often actually. And so I did this session and stuff and he was like, oh, this is great. And he said, you know, at some point in the session your parents showed up and you told them to wait.

Bill: 37:21

Wow. Wow.

Laure: 37:22

And I thought that was a really beautiful image actually Yeah. At some point in a session your parents showed up and you said, no, not now.

Bill: 37:29

That's good. That's good. Now you can tell your parents to wait.

Laure: 37:33

Yeah. It's good to know. I think for therapists, you know, just to be aware of that, that when your parents show up in a session, you can tell them to wait.

Bill: 37:41

Yeah. And that speaks to just the unknown, right? It speaks to, or whatever shows up. I think sometimes we get rocked by it. And I think that speaks to, well, for me, it speaks to training, right? No, maybe I bring this in, or maybe I don't, maybe I check with the client. Is this significant right now? Because you know, in constellations, you set up four or five people, something's gonna happen, right? But for ourselves is to, oh, is to embrace the surprise without trying to figure out how to fix it or anything like that. Embrace the surprise so we're not rocked by it. You know, we're not like oh, oh, I'm afraid or something, or I don't know what to do and it's okay if you don't know what to do, that's fine.

Laure: 38:22

Yeah. Yeah. We're not fighting reality. Trying to make it into something else and trying to create a story of, oh no, I'm not feeling all those things, or this is not what's happening and then all that energy is freed up to do the work basically.

Bill: 38:36

Sure.

Laure: 38:38

So one of the questions that I ask people when they come here is if your life was a hero's journey what would be, you know, your overall quest, like what did you come here to find, or what did you lose when you came here that you are gonna spend your whole life finding again? you look at your whole life as an arc, what is the thing that you have been looking for?

Bill: 39:01

Oh boy. Now we're gonna get into, we have another hour?

Laure: 39:04

I know it's a little existential question.

Bill: 39:08

Well, I, I can say this, I've shared this, I think maybe with two or three people. So when I was 16, I was at a summer camp, I had what probably could be called, kenshō in Zen, some sort of awakening and that experience, I was sitting on a lake, and, and everything got totally still. And that experience, I would probably say I've been trying to find it again. Of course, in spiritual realms you can't go grasping it again, but something about that let me know that everything was okay, that everything was okay, that I'm okay. What I was struggling with as a 16 year old was okay, of course, I heard a voice, and of course the voice said, I'm everywhere and then I, I was asking Laure, did you hear you? What are you talking about? Okay. And then, you know, that was, it lasted, I don't know, not even a minute. And, but it was just a profound experience. And then of course I fell back into being 16. Breaking up with a girlfriend, finding a new girlfriend, you know, trying to figure out high school and stuff like that. But I never forgot that moment.

Laure: 40:15

Yeah. I relate very strongly. I've had a couple of those.

Bill: 40:19

Yeah, yeah

Laure: 40:20

With the same kind of embodied understanding that everything is fine.

Bill: 40:26

Everything is okay. And I think this work for me is really just a vehicle, it's like getting us across the river. So once you get across the river, I don't need constellations anymore. And I think that's coming for me. I haven't figured that out. I still like doing the work. I'm gonna do a training. But I, that's coming for me.

Laure: 40:46

Yeah.

Bill: 40:47

That's hovering. Yeah. It's there. I mean, it, it goes deeper into the work. I can see suffering and I go, okay. And I know there's layers to it. There's layers to the suffering and it's fear. And and part of me wants to say, yeah, but you just have to walk through the door. Oh, can't do that. And, and it literally is that simple.

Laure: 41:06

Yeah.

Bill: 41:07

We as humans make it complex. It's not.

Laure: 41:12

Yeah. I very often I have this image or this fantasy, or this inkling that one could drop everything like a coat: personality, all the constructs that you could just like, poof, take it off and just be. But I think, yeah, partly what we've come to experience probably is the coat.

Bill: 41:32

I'll be in a whole new workshop. Who am I without my coat?

Laure: 41:35

Exactly. So talking about coat, however your understanding of soul is, like whatever it is. When do you feel closer to your own soul? And when do you feel closer to other people's soul? If it's not the same thing?

Bill: 41:50

Oh yeah. I like that question. I saw it, so I think. Well, the word that keeps coming, floating around for me and, and I've been sitting with that word, is the word surrender. So when I feel closest to my own soul well, there's some things. I mean, there's actually practical things like I like gardening and working on floor. So when I'm working in the earth and I'm just have no other agenda other than pull the weeds out, or get the blueberry patch, something happens and I, and then actually I just feel totally at peace. So there's something there or my nervous brain is running around. I gotta get done, I gotta get this done, when I can say, fuck it and just let that go. Surrender. Like, I can't get it all done. Something happens and the peace comes again. So I would say that's how I feel closer to my own soul or someone else when they let me in and I'm witnessing the transformation, it's, it could be deeply painful and they're, they're moving through something, they've held onto for a long time, and I can see the suffering shift. On one level that's how I feel closer to someone's soul, or they're just caught up in their own joy in their being, and I go, wow, and it's just there.

Laure: 43:05

That's beautiful. Yeah, I relate to that very strongly as well. All right. Well, I think we ran the gamut.

Bill: 43:12

Well, thank you for having me.

Laure: 43:14

Thank you so much for coming. And you're running a training this year, right?

Bill: 43:19

I stepped into it. I'm running a training. Yeah, it starts in October. Yeah.

Laure: 43:24

Okay, cool. Wonderful. Well, I'll put all the info for that underneath the episode if people are interested.

Bill: 43:31

it's all on my website so people can can just look and look at events. Probably the easiest place to find everything

Laure: 43:37

And you run workshops regularly online as well.

Bill: 43:40

I've done focus workshops. I just did one the other day. And I'm gonna do a, a live workshop in the end of April. I haven't posted that one yet. That's local, that's right here in where I live.

Laure: 43:51

All right. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming

Bill: 43:55

Thank you for having me.

Laure: 43:57

And I hope I see you soon.

Bill: 43:59

Same here. I hope I see you soon.