The Family Constellations series : Fans of the Field, with Tracee Kafer

🧶In this episode, Tracee Kafer and I discuss our love for family constellations and the changes the practice has brought in our lives, as well as our direct experience of it, both as participants and facilitators.

Tracee is opening a 3 months program about gestures where she will combine movement with the systemic approach, you can find more about it here : https://www.findingyourfreestyle.com/tell

If you have no idea what constellations are, I recommend listening to S1 Ep5: Family mythology, the told and the untold or read more about it here : https://www.laureporche.com/modalities

🎬You can also watch :
Another self : https://www.netflix.com/fr-en/title/81380432
Ep 5 of Sex, Love and Goop: https://www.netflix.com/fr/title/81459349
This great video on hidden loyalties by Shavasti: https://youtu.be/Sd7umLz77Cw

Get notified when the Silken Mirror membership opens in 2023 : http://eepurl.com/dxzCk9

Follow us on Instagram @moonlitpathchannel

This podcast is hosted by Laure Porché: http://laureporche.com. You can follow me on Instagram @laureporche
If you're enjoying the podcast, consider sharing it or leaving a review on Apple Podcast :)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Laure: So, for those of you who don't know, Tracee Kafer, movement facilitator extraordinaire, is a very dear friend of mine. And for a few years now, we've been mixing it up and creating events and facilitating events where we work with freestyle and constellation and create mixed experience together. And she has been training constellation for the last few years. Um, to my delight, and she's as passionate about constellation as I am. And so I thought I'd have her on here, uh, for us to just chat about our experience with constellations and hopefully make you want to experience it yourself. So hi, Tracee. 

[00:00:46] Tracee: Hi, Laure . Thanks for having me on. This is of course, so cool.

[00:00:50] Yeah, I'm 

[00:00:51] Laure: excited and I'm nervous to talk about this. I'm excited that you're coming on my podcast, . 

[00:00:58] Tracee: I was just listening to it yesterday. I, I really, really enjoy. Yeah, what you're doing here in this space. It's so cool. Thank you.

[00:01:06] Laure: Thanks friend. So to start off with, I'd like, if you will, if you could share just a little bit about your journey with constellation, I guess your inner journey, cause we both know how you discovered it, right? It's like you came into my circle, but I'm sure your relationship to it has evolved through time because now you're learning it. So, from your first impression of it to now, if you want to talk a little bit about that. 

[00:01:37] Tracee: My first first was actually not in your circle. It was just hearing you talk about it, like the weekend we met. So we met in a Reiki training in Brooklyn. And remember we were sitting at like, I think the jungle cafe or one of these vegan restaurants, or it could have been in the training itself, but somewhere we were sitting down, we were talking and you were like, yeah, I'm learning this modality it's called family constellation, but like, honestly.

[00:02:05] The second you started talking about it, it like, it, it's immediately sort of confusing and mystifying. And you're like, what are you talking about? What is this? And I went, I remember I went home and looked up family constellations on YouTube. I just like started Googling family constellation videos and I watched this old grainy black and white, I think, video of Bert Hellinger, um, facilitating.

[00:02:31] On video. And I still was like, what is this from? Like, I think the beauty of constellation is you can't be a lurker. Like if you're just, you got your goggles on, you're trying to look into the space, into the work of family constellation. It's a constellation doesn't really let you feel it. It doesn't let you in.

[00:02:53] You have, you only are allowed in if you do it, Um, so I remember my first experience was like a bit of confusion and of course, intrigue. And even that weekend, you said, Oh, you're gonna, you'll end up doing this, I think, or maybe it was the next time we met, but you started doing these circles in the city and I would come and I don't know if you want this much detail or, but, uh, I was blown away.

[00:03:20] I just thought like, even hearing myself say that, it's so cliche. Like, I was blown away by. This modality, like to me, the first few times I experienced it with you, I thought it was magic. I thought it was profound and my body immediately craved more like I did a couple pieces with you. I would still say that they were life changing and worked on me for years after they were done.

[00:03:49] The pieces, these 20 minute pieces that changed my life. But there were several years between that time when I practiced with you and then it wasn't until COVID hit and I was craving a teacher, really wanting and craving a teacher that you became that voice in my ear yet again about the brilliant mentorship of like a constellation facilitator.

[00:04:11] These are facilitators that have been facilitating for decades. And I was a facilitator and didn't really have a mentor. And so I started by the nature of wanting to learn and be guided by people who've been in the game longer. I just went that route. I went into the Constellation world. It started with an online intensive where I could kind of quote unquote shop around for teachers.

[00:04:35] Like, go into a three hour workshop, feel them out. From that point, it was so easy. It was so easy to find people I wanted to learn from. It's like... I don't have enough time in the day to learn from the people I want to learn from. So at that point I started training. This was years, I would say three or four year gap between something like that.

[00:04:54] Laure: You came to my circles in like 2015, 16? 

[00:04:59] Tracee: Yeah. 

[00:04:59] Laure: Because that's when I started doing them. And then we worked together kind of with that modality. We started working together in like 2019. And then two years after that, or like a year and a half after that, you started training. 

[00:05:14] Tracee: Thank you. I missed that piece in the middle where I started talking to you.

[00:05:19] Thank you for that. I totally just blanked on that. Talking to you about having this retreat in Sedona and then like waxing, like musing with myself in a voice note to you about how cool it would be if you liked it. Flew over and brought your work to us. And then you did, um, and you came to Sedona and you come and you did, you know, traditional circle work with these movers and it was phenomenal.

[00:05:46] It's fabulous. And that kind of kicked off another round of me being exposed to the work. And we have, as you say, we've, we've mixed. our work together. And every time we do that, so it's so cool. Like, I imagine we'll do, we'll do more of that. Yeah. 

[00:06:03] Laure: Yeah. Cause it was, it works so well. Um, and it's, it's interesting because the first circles that you came to when you had this kind of like, wow, this is amazing.

[00:06:15] I was like three months into my training, so I literally had no experience. So it really wasn't about me as a facilitator, right? Like I was literally giving people handouts. with template constellations that they could do, right? I you remember that. Yeah. Like I had like literally no experience facilitating whatsoever.

[00:06:36] So when you say like the experience that you had, for me, that speaks to me more about the, the potency of the modality that kind of works by itself. And I love that you said what you said about you can't be a lurker. Because that's your, you have, you are unrolled no matter what you do. Even if you just go to a circle and you sit there and you don't represent and you don't constellate you're still participating, actually participating, uh, you can't be a spectator to it.

[00:07:06] And I find that's really one of the things that drew me to it for sure, is that everybody's included in the work, like you can't be an outsider of the work. 

[00:07:16] And from being an outsider all my life. I felt so included when I started working in Constellation, and I think that's, you know, like when you talk about your body kind of craving that sensation of that kind of work, I know that I definitely experienced that.

[00:07:32] And I think part of it is that, that feeling of, I am part of the work, no matter where my place is in the circle and no matter what my role is. Just me being there as part of the work because what I'm bringing in my field, in my family system, and it's serving whatever's happening in the room, I think.

[00:07:53] Tracee: Absolutely. Yeah. And you can't, once you start practicing in that way, as a movement facilitator, I can't unsee and unfeel that. Yeah. And it's. a transformational impact on the way I want group work to feel and go. Like that kind of, that level of inclusivity that's happening on almost a soul, not even almost, on a soul level.

[00:08:18] And it's not about doing, it's you innately belong and And then you can, you know, obviously fully you're invited to fully inhabit your body and fully invited to connect to other people at the same time, not only receive so much, but be in service so much. I mean, you leave like every circle I leave, I feel so full.

[00:08:41] And I know we haven't even talked about what the heck Constellation is on a deeper level. We're still sort of talking about the feeling of it, but to me, that's like one of the most important parts about it for me. It's the whole dynamic and the whole lived experience of it. 

[00:08:58] Laure: Yeah, I guess you could talk about from a conceptual lens and that's kind of what, you know, I do in the previous podcast or, but it's a modality that's completely dependent on experience. It's really phenomenological. You can't really experience it if you're staying in your head. That's not an option, which I find It's not like, it's just like, it doesn't give you a choice, right? To be a human or not, or to be in your body or not, you don't have a choice to stay like just a talking head and be like, 

[00:09:32] Tracee: That's my favorite part.

[00:09:34] Laure: This is interesting. You know, like to be in a circle and be like, Oh, how interesting. It's really hard. I mean, some people manage to do it. Some people really managed to do it. I've seen it happen, but they're usually really, really disconnected. And it's still really hard to do, like, you know, this, at some point in the circle, something is gonna, something is gonna run.

[00:09:52] Tracee: But you know why I think that's so powerful? Is like, you think about any other modality, there's still ways to, like, bypass it, to move around the experience, to fake the experience, to dip in and out. Constellation, like, drops an anchor. A metaphorical anchor into it. Meditation can't really do that. There's so many things that can't do that.

[00:10:14] And I think it's the very nature of the fact that it's a group process where the group is moving together through something that has brought so much inspiration to my movement work because. I'll be honest, like, in the movement world, so much of the reasons people show up and inhabit a movement space is not necessarily to tap into this, like, we ness, this quality of a group.

[00:10:38] It's like to serve some sort of independent, individuated need to, like, look a certain way or experience a certain. Thing in your body in yourself, not by yourself, but in essence in, in kind of a bubble. And it's exciting that the work, the constellation has, has had an impact on my own just group movement experiences, like the field of constellation.

[00:11:04] Now that I'm training in it, you know, I can bring it into a dance space.

[00:11:15] Which is so that out. Yeah. I'm finding that out. Yeah. Oh, can I also say, I'm so shocked that I didn't realize you'd only been training three months and now I know I've been having trained for a couple of years or so that you were facilitating circles in the first three months kind of blows my mind.

[00:11:34] That would have been very, very difficult for me. And those circles were so good. 

[00:11:40] Laure: Like, yeah, I mean, partly they were so good. I think because I had no expectations of myself, obviously, because I was, you know, I came in, I was very clear with everybody. I was first, it was free. And second, I was very clear with everybody that I'm training.

[00:11:55] I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. 

[00:11:57] Tracee: But you did.

[00:11:58] Laure: I did. Well, I kind of did because it's, it's always been very familiar. Like constellations to me, I've always felt very familiar. It's just resonated stuff that I could already see, but the reason why I started three months in was because I thought if I don't start now, I'm never going to do it.

[00:12:14] And I wanted to take advantage of being in the training in a group of people with a teacher. Um, and so being held in that container. In order to feel safe enough to feel like supported enough to start facilitating because what happens and this is like an exciting notes, what happens in a lot of things that you go through your training and you're super supported and you have, you know, you, you feel part of a group, you feel supported by your teacher and mentors.

[00:12:42] stuff. And then the training ends and you're by yourself. And then that's what people, people very often wait till the end of the training to start practicing. And that's so much harder because you are out of the container. Yeah. And so I'm so, I'm really grateful to myself that I did that because I think it would have been much harder for me to start and to facilitate as much as I facilitated in the last seven years if I hadn't done that.

[00:13:08] Tracee: Yeah, it was a smart choice, 

[00:13:11] Laure: But I was, you know, I, I just, again, like I had those templates things and I was like, Hey, here, we can do this. And yeah, we kind of moved away from the templates sometimes depending on what people were bringing. Yeah. Those were cool. But what I like also about it, you know, you're saying of like the inclusivity, obviously, but also for me coming from, also from the movement world, but not, you know, not in a while and maybe not as much as you, but I'm mostly come from a kind of like spiritualistic, psychological, psychological, spiritualistic kind of work and kind of upbringing and world.

[00:13:48] I was raised in kind of a new age mentality and stuff like that. And so the thing that I really appreciate about constellation is that it's dependent on bodies. Like you cannot be out of your body and do constellation. It's really hard. 

[00:14:05] And that's, I find that you know, very often in these communities or environment, there's a lot of bypassing of the body and of the humanity and the human nature in itself.

[00:14:16] And in Constellation, everything is included by default. Everyone is included. Everything is included. Nothing, it doesn't have a place. And that includes all the shit that kind of new age, um, currents, thought currents are trying to push out. Like love and light kind of things, like, Oh no, shadows don't have a place or like all the defaults or all the, 

[00:14:45] I don't know, like, um, 

[00:14:46] Tracee: the old patterns don't have a place.

[00:14:48] Laure: Yeah, the old patterns don't have a place. 

[00:14:50] Tracee: The things that we're done with that just get like, you know, we'll just throw them away. 

[00:14:54] Laure: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:14:54] Tracee: Thanks for making me who I am. 

[00:14:57] Laure: And things like jealousy or hate or like all those things, they're like, they're bad. You have to, you have to exclude them. And that's what I love about Constellation is like, it's not in denial about human life.

[00:15:10] And I like that very much. 

[00:15:13] Tracee: And it's not in denial of the, the, the body's experience of our lives. Even in let's say talk therapy, there's a way that you don't have to touch on the body's experience, which can be so different than what our brains have, what tales and stories that we carry in our minds can be so different than the one, than the lived experience in our bodies.

[00:15:41] Laure: And it reflects in the communities, I feel, you know, uh, to me, the constellation community is one of the most diverse that I've come across in terms of healing communities, healing modality kind of environment, and the constellation world is all people, young people, men, women, black, white, the all kind of walks of life.

[00:16:05] It's not one note. It's not. And also like just even the, um, The humanness of people who are in those communities. I feel like very often everyone's character is very different and very strong. There's no kind of uniformity like you can find, you know, for instance, in the yoga community. Totally. Like, there's like no uniformity in counselors that you come in and you for sure you're going to get triggered like for sure by people.

[00:16:33] Because there's like all every single craziness is going on. Um, including your own.

[00:16:41] Tracee: People are so fully themselves. Yeah. Like there's so many group processes or places that we would gather and there's just a lot more. Formative qualities, masking, good student behavior, the things that can happen. And then in Constellation, you know, just by the very nature of the work, people are invited to fully be themselves as are you, you know, and that obviously makes a very diverse group with lots of diverse behaviors and it's kind of beautiful that way.

[00:17:10] Laure: It is kind of beautiful. And what's beautiful is that people being themselves really serves the constellation, like it's them being themselves that serves the work instead of, you know, being invited to kind of repress yourself. And like, I've been in circles where somebody would get on my nerves, like nobody's business.

[00:17:31] And then I would choose them to represent something in my constellation because it was obvious, you know, they had to be that person or that thing. And it served so well, my own work. And that's absolutely, 

[00:17:45] Tracee: absolutely, I, I'm just having a memory that I used to be less tolerant, I think, of the idiosyncrasies of people. And I wanted, you know, I come from a military family, right? So there's this part of me that's really internalized this, like, standard that we should kind of be compliant and stuff. Not that I live my life this way, but that there's a lineage of that in my body. And so, there's this way that I've carried a kind of intolerance for people.

[00:18:14] And Constellation healed, I'll use the word healed, so much of that quality. Like, I used to call you, I, cause there was a time where I was so hungry, I was going to every freaking circle. I could get my hands on, you know, many of them were online and it get out and call you. And I just be like, I love people.

[00:18:34] Holy shit. Like I have through attending these circles, we've gotten more and more in approval of people as they are. And then of course the same goes for myself and just spending that kind of time and that kind of quality of time with people has made me kind of fall in love with people and I didn't realize.

[00:18:56] I'll be true. I didn't realize I loved people before that. 

[00:19:00] Laure: I mean, that's a completely similar experience. I always say, you know, when I trained with Francesca Mason Boring, and I think I told her, so I said, you know, this training just taught me to love people. I didn't know that I could. Yeah, I know that I could.

[00:19:17] I mean, I'm, you know, I think we both have like avoidant tendencies and, uh, just like social, social anorexic kind of tendencies and constellation. I think the constellations are actually great modality for people who are avoidant or, you know, have struggle with social interactions. And I remember seeing, and partly was seeing Francesca, uh, be with people and see like a different way of being where you could really be with someone while not losing yourself. And that was kind of new for me to see that, but also just the, just the quality of the people in my training and the relationships that were happening and stuff. And that's, that's the thing, like, that's the first time that I can, that I could honestly say that.

[00:20:07] I loved being in a group of people and then I could see all of them, you know, even if I didn't necessarily love them individually in terms of, you know, we're closer to some people, but to see their beauty, to see their struggles, to see everything, to really appreciate who they were as human beings, that was totally taught to me by constellation.

[00:20:28] Tracee: Yeah, I love what you say about, um, see their struggles because That's another thing that has opened in my awareness since Constellation and is again now just a part of life is that when you're in front of somebody else, you don't just see them and how they're behaving in that moment and how they make you feel in that moment.

[00:20:46] You have this wider awareness of what's behind them and what. They've navigated, not that you have to know, but there's the sense the more you're exposed to people doing work in constellation, the more you're like, holy crap, like the things that people have survived, the things that their family has survived, the decisions that have had to be made for that survival, the love, the pain, the loss.

[00:21:11] And then all of a sudden that's in your body and you, you can't look at a human being at the grocery store and not on some level acknowledge the depth of their humanity, the depth of every single person's humanity and the challenges they navigated. And it's so much easier not be an asshole then if they, you know, cut you off in the street or something.

[00:21:33] Because Like, it's so much more complex than that, than what someone is like doing in your personal sphere. It's like that person has this dimensional, colorful, painful, wonderful lineage that's like almost, you know, unfathomably wide and long. And so do you. And not that that makes. That person feel bigger.

[00:21:56] It just like if I look in the eyes of a person now, I see different things than I used to. Yeah, I feel different things than I used to. 

[00:22:04] Laure: Yeah, because also constellation gives you because, you know, you could, you could talk about this and have like an understanding of it from a, from a mental perspective, a mind perspective, cognitive, uh, self, but the constellation gives you an actual embodied experience of being in somebody else's shoes and lineage when 

[00:22:27] Tracee: you know how many times I've called you crying in reverence for that. Yeah. Like the privilege of that. Yeah. Getting to experience in your body a piece of that in someone else. That is medicine. 

[00:22:42] Laure: It is medicine. And I think something that comes closer to it is people who are actors, but that's not even, you know, depending on what kind of acting you're doing and what, like how you're connecting to that.

[00:22:54] But I know some actors do actually what they're doing is like representing their being in constellation and their acting. But other than that, in daily life, where else do you have a real opportunity to stand in somebody's shoes and actually feel what they're feeling? not imagine what they're feeling, not play act what they're feeling, but actually feel stuff.

[00:23:16] Projects what they're feeling. Yeah. Projects what they're feeling or, you know, just be in somebody's shoes and feel in your body. Suddenly you have those emotions and those feelings, sometimes the physical manifestations as well. And, and it always takes people by surprise. I, you know, I do a lot of circles here in France since I've moved back.

[00:23:36] I do a lot of circles with people who are not used to doing this kind of work. They're beginners. And very often they're people who don't, who haven't necessarily done a lot of work on themselves and they don't have like a, a lot of awareness of their own self and their body. 

[00:23:49] Especially since in France, you know, we have socially, there's a different culture.

[00:23:54] And I think people are much more guarded than in the U S for instance, and definitely more judgmental. Like that's kind of judgment is judgment is a cultural trait here. And so it's so interesting every time I facilitate where I see the distance between people at the beginning of the circle where everybody's looking at each other and they're like, you know.

[00:24:20] Um, what is this? What's this? What's this? And then they're looking at me like, you better prove to us this works. 

[00:24:28] Tracee: Yeah. Yeah. The tight, the tightness. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:24:32] Laure: And then they get in the first constellation and then suddenly they're feeling all those feelings. And this is, it's intense and they don't, they're completely taken aback by it because there's no reason for it.

[00:24:44] They just stood there. There's just somebody just said, Hey, will you represent my mom or my dad or whatever? And they just stood up and now suddenly they're crying and they're feeling all those feelings and they don't, you know, and immediately it kind of takes all the defenses out. And I think, I think that's the skill of the facilitator even more than to know what to do or like, you know, understand the thing, but like to kind of make it okay for people to be in that position where suddenly they haven't seen it coming uh, they've gone to from zero to 60 in no time, and they've gone to being in a circle and being in their kind of self mask and self-image and self stuff, and then suddenly they're in somebody else's body or saw somebody else's experience.

[00:25:36] And I love it personally. Like I think I love representing, always loved representing. It's like a ride. So, Maybe people would like to hear a little bit about what representating is, like what repping is when you're representing the constellation, because it's kind of mysterious, right? We don't really know what happens.

[00:25:58] Tracee: Yeah, and there's also this way that every facilitator probably has a different set of... Um, beliefs and or knowledge around what repping is, what it contains, because there's this way you step into a role that you're invited to step into. Let's say it's a, a daughter, for example, and you start to notice things in your body or in your experience.

[00:26:24] And you're, you know, as a rep, you're kind of invited to reflect on what you're noticing. You're, you're invited to verbalize and to feel and to, you know, there's obviously different, different things you might be asked to do as a rep or notice, and there's this way that as that's coming, like as that emerges in your experience in your body, as that starts to inform where you look in the room or how you breathe or.

[00:26:51] Who, you know, noticing who or who you're not in connection with, what you are not in connection with in that role. I think that spot has a complexity that I wanted to to name because there's a way that that content is and is not factual. There's a way that what you are feeling can be super relevant to the constellation and to the client.

[00:27:17] It can be super relevant to you personally, but I think When people start repping for the first time, there's some confusion and some curiosity around what is that experience? What's the historical accuracy of that? What is relevant? What's not relevant? You might be in a role and feel like your experience is the experience that's happening in the room, but really you're just, you're a piece.

[00:27:44] a much larger thing going on. And what you feel in your body might not even be relevant to the piece of work that's happening. So you're like, you're holding this, you're holding this really wide perspective. And I know I'm rambling a little bit, but there's this way that like you might have personal resonance too high feel what you notice the role you are repping does.

[00:28:09] And. There, I think there can be truth in that, uh, deep truth in that. There can also be projection in that. There can be, I mean, there's, there's so many things that are going on in there. 

[00:28:23] Laure: Yeah. There can be projection in that. Yeah. There can be. I agree with that. Um, and that, that will kind of depend a lot on the facilitator as well.

[00:28:31] Like some people, you know, Francesca, for instance, would say that anything that you experience, even if it is projection, or even if it is. Um, right. Your own imaginings about it will serve the constellation. 

[00:28:44] And she's not of the mind that you should sort through what is yours and what is the persons that you represent. And I tend to agree with her because in my experience, that's true. I'll mostly stop people, at least in France, when they start going into conversation, like they start talking too much, talking around what they're feeling and starting to give reasons for what they're feeling instead of just like saying what their experience is.

[00:29:12] But I think what is hard for people to understand until they've done it is that it's not acting. It's not, you're not making it up from what you've heard from the person's story. 

[00:29:24] You know, you're not constructing your experience basically. It's really from your body. is the most obvious I feel when you do blind constellations when either Uh, nobody knows what they're repping and I've done a number of those and so when you do that, it becomes obvious that it's not about the person creating a story in their head or having projections or whatever because they don't know what the fuck they're representing.

[00:29:56] Tracee: And often when you're repping, you don't have a lot of content. In many cases, I've had very little, or maybe I went to the bathroom and came back and now I'm repping. Yeah. And I missed the whole interview, so I don't even know. Like I don't, what's beautiful is you don't need to know. Yeah, yeah. And it what phenomena not phenomenologically emerges.

[00:30:18] Um, but I just love that I, I just wanted to, I'm glad that you're naming and I wanted to name that it, there's a complexity to the experience itself. I think what's your first starting out, it can be a little like, what is happening here? What's mine? What's theirs? You know, there's a kind of a sorting. A sorting hat, going on.

[00:30:36] Um, you know, and now for me, that's just a big flowing movement that's just moving. Yeah. But there's a few factors in there I think are relevant to name. 

[00:30:46] Laure: It's usually, I think it can be confronting for some people who are not used to maybe voicing. What they feel without like social filters in a way, or, you know, I've, I've had people in constellations be very scared that what they were going to say was going to hurt the person, the other representative, because they felt something like, Oh, I really don't like this.

[00:31:11] I don't really want to go to this person. Or I feel off. Or I feel being very, very angry or I feel like I want to hit them or whatever it is. And if there are people who are really strongly conditioned to being nice, that's the one thing that I can think of that would be, can be difficult to handle for the person is like, we're asking them to say, to be really straightforward about what they're feeling in a society where obviously you, you shouldn't be straightforward about what you're feeling ifv you wannna, if you want to fit in. And so that's the one difficulty that I find for myself. You know, sometimes there's reps and I see that they're kind of holding back because they're worried that they're going to be the bad guy or, and it's also an information obviously, it also gives me an information about the constellation because everything that happens in a constellation is. It's part of the constellation. Animals coming through, sounds from outside, what people feel or say or whatever, music that happens randomly at random times in the constellation. 

[00:32:21] Tracee: Yeah, there have been some, like, quite magical things like that that have happened to me. 

[00:32:26] Laure: You've had weather like crazy weather stuff. 

[00:32:29] Tracee: I get weather. Yeah, I get weather Interaction in my circles when I'm there And there was that one time. I think it was a organizational constellation and there were there was a community and there was a lot of stress and conflict in this community And I think I was representing like a, a group of people, not just one.

[00:32:54] And I live in the Hudson Valley, like hail is not something I maybe, I maybe seen hail once in the five years that I've lived up here and immediately timed perfectly with the start of my role, my representation, and then the conclusion of the constellation, this storm just. Spontaneously like emerged around my house, obviously, you know, that's just, I'm sitting here looking out the window.

[00:33:23] It just starts lashing it with wind and rain and then hail. And it's like hitting the roof and banging. And I'm, I remember, um, I think I was muted at the time and I just, my jaw opened, I looked out the window. And our facilitator, this is Jane. Yeah, yeah, I remember. Was like, clearly this rep is having, you know, experience. I'm like, holy shit, you know, you would not believe what's happening. And, you know, so many people in the circle who experienced this, we just laugh because this kind of shit happens all the time. And it was so beautiful and it was so relevant and it was like the perfect energy to match in resonance with the energy that was alive in that role.

[00:34:05] Yeah. Like... This is a shit storm right now. That was the, that was the experience. Uh, and he, you know, it was just, landed right left and the beauty of ending the circle and then the storm kind of blew out so fast. Right along there. 

[00:34:22] Laure: It was instant. It was crazy. Yeah. 

[00:34:24] Tracee: That, that kind of stuff. I also get a lot of technological interference.

[00:34:27] There was a Constellation once where I was just in a breakout room with another person repping something sort of inner system like my own stuff. And it was around, it had, it had dreads about visibility and stuff. And my camera stopped working for my entire constellation. She couldn't see me and it's stuff like that.

[00:34:49] That is so much more perfect than anything that I could say or do. Yeah. And I love the way that like the world collaborates with the work at the moment collaborates with the work and with what we perceive. Um, that's a gift that constellation has like extended out into my daily life. You know, music talks to me all the time, like.

[00:35:09] I have spontaneous constellations. When you start to interact with phenomenology in that way, it's uh, it's very, it's informing. So informing. Yeah. Everything's talking to you. Does that sound crazy? 

[00:35:22] Laure: Just listen. Just listen. And being a rep is basically that, just like, just listen, just be in your body and be available.

[00:35:32] Tracee: That's it. Yeah. Nothing to do. What emerges will emerge. I love the way that that's so effortless. And so not about doing something and or generating something, you know, as like a former performer and a dancer, there's this way that my body feels like it has to generate things and constellation. You don't work that way.

[00:35:59] Yeah. But thank you for naming that stuff around repping because there's, I love the questions that a new rep will ask that were, you know, it's like, what is happening right now?

[00:36:12] Yeah. It's a process. And in like the repping is a, an experience that matures in you, in your body. Like you can actually, it can become a, a kind of a skill. I would say, I don't know how you would say it that way, but you can do it from day one. You just need a body. That's all you need. Yeah. Yeah. And being you is, is all you need.

[00:36:35] Yeah. Uh, there's this way where I'm sure folks may have never experienced that level of empathy or compassion or resonance for someone else's life content. You know, there's this way where, uh, no, especially in America, we have this divide where it's like. My pain, your pain, and they can't ever really intersect in a soft, compassionate way where like I can, the pain in you resonates the pain in me.

[00:37:03] I think that's really powerful, especially people who, um, maybe can only tap into that watching a movie where the movie is, you know, is catered to them having that experience so they can resonate. It's some tale, but there have been representations that I've been invited into that have like really shifted, have really shifted the way that I see certain things.

[00:37:29] When you speak about judgment, I might have a judgment about a kind of way that a parent might behave with a child or spouse might behave with another spouse, but then when you're in a representation and it's backed by that person's family struggles. And that person's capacity and that person's whatever, as you say, instantly, it can go from like, I might have a judgment about that to, Oh, Oh my God, I, I get it.

[00:37:59] I get it. That makes sense. Of course. And that can happen so quickly. That's a big movement. It's so efficient. I once represented for, if I can share this, like for a father and. Representing for a man is very powerful for me personally. I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot. And that one in particular, you know, I just remember how I perceived the story of it before I got into the repping.

[00:38:31] And afterwards, it's the lived experience of repping in that position for that father and that life circumstance. A transformed perspective. And then you get to walk away with this seed of a gift from someone else's system forever. You get that for you. Like that privilege is so sacred to me. Um, it's a very sacred gift.

[00:38:58] We might read a memoir. And get something like that through hundreds of pages of someone else's words about their own life. But this is like a non verbal thing that gets transferred in your body in a moment in Constellation. 

[00:39:12] Laure: Yeah, I, I agree. Like I remember having, repping for things for people in circumstances that were, are in my family system, but that I never lived personally.

[00:39:24] It's one of the things that happened also is that, and we probably we should say that is that very often you get when you're representing for somebody else's constellation. You get picked randomly, but very often it resonates either with your story, but it can also resonate with your family system. So whatever is there two or three generations back, and I remember wrapping in a constellation about the Holocaust.

[00:39:52] Because that's in my family system, but I've never experienced it personally, obviously. And being in that experience and feeling things that were really unbearable, unbearable on the body, like a level of fear that was unbearable that would drive you crazy. And, and I felt so grateful because I was like, I would never experience this. any other way. At least I haven't in this lifetime. So I'm grateful for that. First thing, I'm grateful that I haven't experienced this in my lifetime. There's like that gratitude that comes in, but also really grateful to get a sense, to experience it from the inside, because then that can change the way that I relate to people who have experienced that kind of fear in their lifetime.

[00:40:39] And it gives me, and especially as somebody who works with people as a therapist, right? That gives me an embodied experience of what people experience. who have PTSD or who have gone through life threatening things that I obviously wouldn't have if I hadn't had this experience. It would stay kind of a conceptual understanding, whereas if you've gone through that physical sensation, I'd rather die than to feel this for a minute longer.

[00:41:07] That opens your capacity, as you were saying, like opens your capacity for compassion much wider than anything that you can kind of conceptualize with your mind, I think. 

[00:41:18] Tracee: Yeah. So much wider. There was a recent online circle where I, I represented kind of a part in someone else, a young part, and I'm thinking to myself now, how What incredible would it be if parents could do that for a moment to represent or represent in their bodies what two feels like in their nervous system, what four feels like, because we, you know, I'm not a parent, but, but I can imagine that it can be difficult, very difficult to understand in your body what that's like.

[00:41:52] Um, I'm in this particular case, like the. As you said, the fear, the uncontainable feeling in my nervous system. Hmm. And just the desperation to feel landing, to feel safe. And then also the fact that like, language didn't mean shit in that moment. , um, someone talking to me about my f didn't mean shit.

[00:42:16] There's no understanding from that point, uh, that age in the body. , that was another, you know, huge moment for me to remember. Like I, I don't have a memory of that. of my young self. And then I got to touch, touch that again. It's like, Oh my God. Yeah, of course. Of course. Words mean nothing when your nervous system feels like that.

[00:42:39] And you're, you know, you're sensing being that part of you isn't developed yet. Yeah. Powerful. 

[00:42:47] Laure: I love that. I love working with constellation and inner children, because as you said, like, we don't remember, we tend to look at ourselves in the past as if we had all the resources that we have now. Like, it's really hard to remember or to imagine yourself before what you, where you are now.

[00:43:07] And that, that's something that really came to me when I started doing inner child work and to really, really feel or, yeah, have a felt sense of how. small, like how, you know, what it is to be that age. And I agree that Constellation is great for that. It's a really good tool that you can use. That would be a great theme workshop for parents, you know, come and experience your, what it is to be a child.

[00:43:35] Tracee: The absolute game changer and actually like probably pretty easy to set up. 

[00:43:39] Laure: Yeah, that would be amazing. Can you imagine, like, just conversation over conversation of like, okay, so, uh, you're going to represent your child and then we'll have somebody represent you and somebody represent your, your partner.

[00:43:50] Tracee: And then the next time they're not going to turn to their child and say, like, tell me what you're feeling, what you need. It's like, I won't necessarily use that strategy next time. 

[00:44:00] Laure: I guess so much, so much of our life is based on felt experience and we don't acknowledge it because, you know, the mind is considered to be the best thing since I spread. But actually 95% of our decisions and interactions and experiences are based on our felt sense on our perception, like our physical physiological response to the world.

[00:44:23] And I like, I like that constellation really more than acknowledge that it's just, you know, it's the basis of it. You could do a full, you could do full constellation with no words, like I've represented in those, I've done those and. That would be as powerful, if not more, than one where you're talking.

[00:44:42] Tracee: Well, you know, you were there for the last one I did with Bill. That was completely nonverbal. There were no words. He actually, you know, invited me to do the whole thing silent. And what that... Worked in me physically as like cellular change and what was happening was different sensations of pressure and push and pull.

[00:45:06] It was invitations to look at people. It was the quality of being encircled in a group with permission to not go into my head and leave the room. And I mean, you were there and it was, um, when I talked earlier about looking into people's eyes and seeing so much more, it's, it's work like that, that's done that for me.

[00:45:31] And so I'm so glad that not only is constellation is so semantically oriented, but there are also teachers and facilitators like Bill, for example, that are really watching the body. Yeah. And prioritizing the impulse and the messages there and not. Immediately going into, and maybe this is another topic, not immediately going into analysis around that.

[00:45:56] Laure: It is, I mean, it is a topic cuz that's, you know, that's been our approach to mental health and, and it's shifting, you know, it's kind of shifting with all the new knowledge about nervous system, like nervous system stuff is uh, in, right. That's you. We see it everywhere. But I find that a lot of. It's still based in analysis and it's still based in, Oh, you have this reaction, then this is, here's this tool to take care of this reaction and you know, you, how to regulate your nervous system.

[00:46:27] And here's like a list of, and those are great, like those exercises are awesome. I'm not dissing that, but there's a thread of staying in that kind of outside analysis and uh, kind of fixing problems. Uh, direction. Whereas Constellation has no intention of fixing problems for one. That's for also one good thing that I love about it.

[00:46:50] But it does work on the nervous system very deeply. For me, the most powerful Constellation that I've done for myself, for others that I've been in, the common denominator is that the nervous system was really impacted by what was happening, the person's nervous system, usually the clients, you know, not necessarily the representatives, but usually the client's nervous system, whether they're watching, whether they're in it, you can see it in their body.

[00:47:19] You can see it like, you know, whatever they start shaking or this, whatever is happening. And I've done constellations where you, there's no words whatsoever. There's just people standing and And the nervous system goes through a whole thing just with that and it shifts everything for the person. 

[00:47:38] Tracee: Cause so much of that can happen if we just get out of the way of the brilliant way that we as a social species can do that for each other.

[00:47:48] You know, it's like, it's brilliant. And I also want to say that I don't want to get so far into this minimizing language because I actually also think that constellation is brilliant with words, so I don't, the nonverbal, the things that are happening nonverbally are so powerful and I've also had a lot of, um, It's changed the way that I use words and like deepen the dimensionality of words and kind of refined, you know, like getting rid of words that don't really say anything or do anything or like speak anything, really getting down to like that soul language.

[00:48:27] That's that's also really important. And I hope that didn't take us on a tangent, but I'm like, wow, we're really talking about how, you know, constellation is so powerful nonverbal, but it also is also powerful. It is. It is language too. 

[00:48:41] Laure: But I think it's one of the reasons it's so powerful. The language is so powerful is because it's always connected to what's real in the body. It's, you know, like the most powerful healing sentences, what we call healing sentences, which is basically the sentences that we say in a constellation to acknowledge what is real, what is true. And so the words are always, they're never about analyzing what is true. They're just about coming out. This is the words that fit this experience of what is happening to the person and with no justifications or reasons or, uh, we don't go into why, we don't go into any of that.

[00:49:21] We just like speak what is real in the system and in this person's body and in the system's collective body, I guess. 

[00:49:28] Yeah. And I think that's partly why it's so powerful is because the words are not disconnected from the experience, which is very often what happens when we go into analysis is that you can, I mean, so many people, and especially in French, that's like a French thing.

[00:49:44] So many people talk in order not to feel. And myself included. 

[00:49:49] Tracee: Like that's not just France 

[00:49:51] Laure: I know, but like I'm, you know, I, I see it more here actually. I can in, in clients and people that, you know, come show up and that I have to shut them off because they talk, they tell the story and they talk and they talk about what they're feeling in order not to have to be with it.

[00:50:11] And constellation like forces you to match, like to, to reconnect. The words, the expression to the embodied feeling of it. And I think that's the genius of it, partly

[00:50:24] Tracee: agree 1000% that clunky moment where you're speaking the truth of the thing and the mind and the body get to like be together and the feeling you're not leaving the feeling.

[00:50:37] With saying those words. I mean, that is so powerful. And then it makes you realize how inefficient it is to like talk around the thing, then to just prioritize what is this feeling, what is the truth? Um, that's it. 

[00:50:56] Laure: Straight to the core of it. 

[00:50:58] Tracee: Yeah. And then the thing can move. Yep. Ah, . Rather than we're like trying to create all this movement force, all this movement to happen through like our brilliant brain.

[00:51:10] Like, we're gonna figure it out. Yeah. I figured it out. It's like, but don't move. It doesn't really move anything. 

[00:51:16] Laure: No . Uh, yeah. It moves a lot of air and it makes us, I 

[00:51:21] Tracee: like it, you know, , it's very entertaining. 

[00:51:25] Laure: It makes us busy. Yeah, it's really entertaining. Like it keeps you from being bored for sure. 

[00:51:31] Tracee: Yeah. I mean, in life, it's all very interesting. Like when you talked about the nervous system going mainstream and like the language going mainstream and like the tools to Deal with certain ne nervous system states going mainstream. I still think that stuff's really cool, but there is a way that it's can be unhelpful when something that you're navigating is a lot more complex than that.

[00:51:58] You know that there's this way that like in order to describe the thing and use like words to label the saying, it super flattens out. You know, options, cause, effect, like it, it, it, and so much of this stuff really is so layered. Yeah. X plus X equals Y. It's like, it's, it's, there's just so much more. That's why, you know, it's great that it's, it happens in groups because then you have this way of like externalizing complexity, um, because we're talking about just sitting talking about the thing so difficult to hold the complexity.

[00:52:33] It's like almost impossible. Yeah. Really? Yeah. And then you're in constellation and you have this opportunity to have a much wider holding of the thing and then the complexity is allowed to kind of breathe. Yeah. I like that image. 

[00:52:48] Laure: It definitely brings breath into the thing just by taking it out of your body and into the space because you are what, like whatever your family system is, you're carrying it in your body. Like you're carrying all those dynamics in your own nervous system and your own body, and then suddenly it's taken out of your body and it's put in front of you so that you can see it. 

[00:53:10] Tracee: It's just great. . 

[00:53:13] Laure: So I'm curious, because we're talking about family constellations.

[00:53:16] Tracee: Oh, are we? Are we? Yeah. 

[00:53:18] Laure: Wow. You, we are. How do you look at your family differently maybe? Or are you placed in your family differently since you've worked in that modality? What has it changed in the way that you experience yourself within your family?

[00:53:32] Tracee: Simply put, I feel like I've had a full circle movement because all the things that we talked about, the things that you get to experience and better understand, and you know, the representation of the thing, creating this much wider space for the complexity of the thing, doing that consistently over time, like immediately.

[00:53:56] Or eventually translates to like seeing your parents with more complexity, respecting their journey and their fate. And rather than operating through your life, trying to grow things in spite of, you know, there's this way where you reenter your system and you're not literally reentering it, but there's this way where I felt like a eventual reentry into.

[00:54:27] My place in the system and I, I mean, there's, I'm sorry for the slow, there's so much going through my consciousness about like all the ways that it's changed me, but when I'm with my parents now, I, I, well, I'm trying to think of a way to put this simply. It's like, there's, there's a lot more love flowing through me.

[00:54:55] I see them better and I can respect and be clear about these two things that are true. One, these are the people that gave me life. This is where I got all that stuff that I get to live my life with and all, you know, everything that came from them. It's like there's this, um, larger than them sense of the life and love that I took.

[00:55:23] from being their daughter. And then that feels in alignment with can't connected to the fact that they're human beings on the other side. There's this big thing where they gave me life and love and but they're also human beings. And I think we spend a lot of our time like really struggling with that duality.

[00:55:49] There's that larger than life lifeness. And then there's that Brutal humanity, right? And that feels more in order in me. But when I talked about the full circle thing, it's, you know, I've gone through the traditional full circle process. You and I have talked about this where, as you are individuating from them, there's this way that you become a victim to being their child.

[00:56:16] And to It takes a long time, I think, to come out of that, and there's, I've seen it in a circle. Many people spend their whole lives there. Decades upon decades upon decades, and it's really hard to come out of that. Being a victim, too. And, um, I have, you know, come out of that. And I'm so privileged. Like, so privileged that I'm 41 and I'm getting to experience them alive in this new, beautiful way.

[00:56:45] You know, there are people that will continue to work in constellation and other modalities to improve the relationship to their parents inside of themselves because their parents have been gone a long time. Um, mine are still alive and I can have different conversations with them and I can be in a different place in my body with them and I think it's recovered a lot of energy and a lot of love.

[00:57:07] And I have so much, I actually have more and more respect and reverence for them as people. 

[00:57:15] And you know, in Constellation, there's this thing where so much of the work is just about seeing. Can you see it? Can you see them? And you know, outside of the work, that might sound really simple, but it's actually a lot of work.

[00:57:30] It's a lot of work to really look at the people and the events in your life that have contained so much, but it's really powerful when you can like see again or for the first time. Yeah. Um, so I don't know if that answers the question. . Yeah. . But um, yeah. Moving out of the Victimized Child thing is saying to you, podcast listeners, highly recommended.

[00:57:57] Highly recommended if you do Constellation for nothing else. Yeah, it's really good for that. Yeah, it's really good for that. I know. Did anything come up for you when I, anything that you wanna share around what you've seen in my, like I'm open to what you've witnessed in my journey. 

[00:58:15] Laure: I've definitely seen you come out of that and seen things open in places that didn't seem that it could open in your relationship with your parents and your family in general, and I've seen that with me as well, you know, like I've had the same experience, similar experience of that, just developing a deep appreciation that doesn't bypass the reality of your pain. And I think that's, you know, some people also struggle with that.

[00:58:45] It's like, at least what I find in my, in my practice, the, the, the profiles that I have is one side is the people who are victimized by their parents. So that's still in this place of victimization, but there are also people who bypass their own pain in order to honor their parents, you know, that they, and yeah, I mean, 

[00:59:08] Tracee: that's where it started for me is that denial part. 

[00:59:12] Laure: So that's the thing is like what constellation allows you to do is to have the reality of your pain and to also have the reality of the beauty and the richness that is being passed down to you by these people. And to me, that's quite wonderful. And to have the chance to have that appreciation and that feeling of...

[00:59:37] Because I spent a lot of years being victimized by my parents and by my, you know, what happened when I was a child, basically. And I did a lot of work in many modalities, and I was always kind of coming back to that, to that piece. In Constellation, In association with inner child work, for me, I came to both at the same time, and so I was kind of doing both simultaneously, really brought me into a place of deep, deep appreciation for how lucky I have been to have the parents.

[01:00:12] Tracee: Yeah, the more, it's like the more you also work with. The painful spots of it, you know, maybe like what was missing for you, what you wanted to get or have or experience that you didn't. As you look at that, then I found that this, I get also met with all of the gifts of it as well, like what it did receive, which was also really big.

[01:00:37] And there's this way when we like we get stuck looking at the them. What we didn't, what we look at the expectation and our head gets stuck looking there and then we stop even remembering or feeling all of the richness that did come through. Um, absolutely. And I'll also say that like a lot of this stance that I now have in myself, in my relationship to my parents and my family system occur just being in constellation as a witness and as a rep, it's observing other people's systems.

[01:01:10] That reoriented me as well. It wasn't like I'm going into the circles and doing all this work with me and my parents. This all happened, um, what's that word? Indirectly? Yeah, by osmosis. Yeah. 

[01:01:24] Laure: Yeah, I agree. I had sometimes, very often, I had stronger experiences as a rep or as a person in circle. Certainly family wise, because I feel like the most powerful constellations that I had for myself very often were not necessarily about family relationships.

[01:01:42] They were about my own embodiment and like my own soul, I guess. But the strongest Shifts and, uh, stroke of awareness that I got regarding my family was definitely through watching other, other systems and representing them. And that really helped in many ways. What I like also about the Constellation is that it, it honors people in their strength.

[01:02:07] Like it's always, you know, looks at people in a form of dignity. Which I, that's, you know, really, really appreciate that. 

[01:02:18] Tracee: And if you rep, you can feel the difference when you're out of your dignity and when you're in, and then when that dignity is restored, those embodiments are just, it's powerful to feel them juxtaposed. And there's not a lot of other experiences I've had that even addresses that idea. There's a, there's quite a few things that constellation brings in that no other process does. I agree. 

[01:02:45] Laure: So what would be, let's say, you know, people are listening and they're kind of wondering and they're wanting to try it.

[01:02:53] Do you have any advice for somebody like going to their first circle or? 

[01:02:58] Tracee: Well, yes. First of all, I was just, I feel like this whole chat is like one big test, like glowing testimonial where I'm sitting here being like, it's great. I love it. It is my life. Um, but like, that's the truth. Like I'm not, you know, this is not blowing smoke. This is my real, this is my real experience and I love it that much. Like this is very true for me and advice. One thing I think is great is if you No, anyone that had their feet in this world, you could definitely get a recommendation for them of circles that they would recommend or facilities that they would recommend.

[01:03:35] I think that's a really great way in if that's an option for you. Obviously, I had the privilege of Laura, who was like, The kind of encyclopedia of people to know and places to go, um, that was really helpful for me because I ended up in really high quality work immediately.

[01:03:52] Laure: And they can, I've already said that they can actually write to me and ask me, do you know anyone in my neighborhood?

[01:03:59] Tracee: So that's an option. That's a good resource. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good resource. You are a really good resource. Um, Hmm. I mean, it's like, The traditional thing you'd probably hear me say around keeping an open the mind and being curious, really important, but like letting yourself have the experience or having in your first circle, your brain might have a lot of things to say about what is or is not happening, what you should, what you're allowed to do or not do say or not say.

[01:04:35] Um, just letting yourself have your experience, whatever that is. It will be different every time, but like, let yourself have that whenever it is. It's something I'm, I hear in my own head as a thought if I find myself pulling myself out of a vulnerability or a curiosity. Can you let yourself have the experience?

[01:04:59] I actually think it's powerful to not go with a buddy, a friend, a loved one, a spouse, the first few times, or maybe for the entire experience, uh, you do Constellation, go alone. It's one of those things I think is really powerful to go alone, go on that journey yourself. You know, there's like lots of classes and things that we might grab someone who makes us feel safe to bring along, but like, it's really great to just go and do it on your own and have.

[01:05:28] the interactions with people that you will have when you are not accompanied. Yeah. There are a lot of online circles these days, which are great. I've done a lot of online circles and online training, but like really good to find a multi hour or long day in person circle. Yeah. Get in person with other bodies.

[01:05:49] This is where a lot of the nervous system stuff we talked about happens. Um, the eye contact happens, you know, the body experience can really thrive or be as it needs to be in person with other people. But if that's not available to you, what's cool about COVID, what's cool about COVID one of the things was that a lot of these facilitators that would never have done zoom circles are doing zoom circles. And thank God, because I've met so many teachers that are all over the world that would never have met unless they did that. So it is a resource. Just feels a little different. Yeah. 

[01:06:26] Laure: Yeah. Thank God for the international, you know, conference during COVID. I would never also not have gotten to meet all those facilitators that I had heard about so much in all my trainings.

[01:06:37] And I would never have met them without COVID happening because they would never have done anything on Zoom. Yeah. 

[01:06:45] Tracee: And there are facilitators that, that have retrofitted their process to that, the virtual space really well. Um, and yeah, I think give yourself some time and space to digest that. Don't go to a six hour Constellation day and then go to work the next day.

[01:07:04] Um, I mean, I know a lot of people probably do that and it's fine, but there's this way that Constellation keeps moving in you. And if you can give yourself the space for that to happen, not that you have to do anything, it's not a laboring thing, but space to land because it will move in you for... You know, hours, days, months, years, even if you just wrapped or even if you just observed.

[01:07:29] So boundarying, like you're working and I forget that all the time. You and I are in process pretty much every day, all the time. Um, and it's, it's, it's good to, it's good to rest and it's good to make space for the digestion. And I think, um, I know that in my own facilitation work, I noticed most people don't, they just like throw themselves right back into life.

[01:07:54] As soon as they leave the container. Yeah. And that might be because they have to do that, but if you do have choice or wiggle room, give yourself some time. Yeah. 

[01:08:05] Laure: What do you think? Really good advice, miss? Anything? 

[01:08:06] No, I think that's, yeah. Yeah. Really good advice. I see that all the time. People, you know, going to birthday party on the evening of a conversation circle, I'm like, Hmm. They regret it. Usually , they're like, by the end of the venue of the day, they're like, oh my God, how am I going do ? Yeah. 

[01:08:23] Tracee: Might a good idea. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, I did a piece of work at the Western constellation Intensive a week ago now, and there were aftershocks that showed up much later this time.

[01:08:37] And so just remaining gently aware of that is really helpful. So people, I think, Might have expectations of themselves to have, like, moved through something or got it sewn up by a certain point, but like, you are not in control of that. As much as we would like to. We'd love to be in control. 

[01:09:00] Laure: All right, my friend. I think we've run the gamut. And said all the things, 

[01:09:08] Tracee: I don't even know, I feel like there is obviously so much missing because it's a very big thing that like this modality is very, very big. There's so much to talk about. But, um. Yeah. And I really love what you shared about, you know, your experience facilitating it.

[01:09:27] And one day I'll be in circle with you again in person. We will actually, yeah, we're going to, uh, we're going to be in circle as reps. Yeah. But I'd love to see you facilitate in person again. 

[01:09:41] Laure: I'd love to facilitate again. We'll see when that happens. Oh, you have to come to France and we'll come to a circle in french.

[01:09:52] Tracee: And also, you know, I'll claim that like eventually you're going to see this in my own work more and more. It's, it's already in my work in non traditional ways and that's very, it's very exciting for me personally. Yeah. It's so powerful. I really enjoy it. 

[01:10:06] Laure: Coupled with your already powerful work, it's like the bomb. All right, friend. I'll thank you for coming on this wonderful, uh, spring day. 

[01:10:20] Tracee: I can fangirl about Constellation all day. 

[01:10:24] Laure: I know, me too. Maybe we'll have to do another one of those in like a couple of years when we're in a different place.

[01:10:31] Tracee: Can you imagine? I'll probably be so like, this will cringe me out. A couple of years from now, who knows?

[01:10:38] Laure: No, we will look at ourselves, we'll be like, oh, we were so cute. 

[01:10:43] Tracee: No, so look how cute we were. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:48] Laure: All right.