Gender, Masturbation, And The Advice Found in Genesis {Kristin Clark}

 What does it look like to be brave and tell the truth, when so many are saying, "Maybe I'm not a girl..."? And what is the truth about a person's gender? 

Also, why is masturbation wrong if it's not hurting anyone? And how can we respond like God does, when someone opens up about sexual sin?

Kristen and I talk through these questions and more, offering advice found in our Origin Story, from Genesis 1-3. God doesn't leave us to wonder about our gender and sexuality. Will you live like this Story is true?

Guest: Kristen Clark

Bible Passage: Genesis 1-3

Get your Freebie: The Live Like It's True Workbook

Mentioned Resources: 

• Sex, Purity and Longings of a Girl's Heart
• In His Image movie
• Episode with Mary Kassian
• Episode with Kim Cash Tate
• Shannon's book Comparison Girl
• Kristen's Girl Defined episode on Masturbation

Recommended Resources: (Scroll down)

Music: Cade Popkin Music 

Kristen Clark

Kristen Clark is married to her best friend, Zack, and is the newly adoptive mom to two precious boys from Ukraine. She is co-founder of Girl Defined Ministries, author of several books, including Not Part of the Plan: Trusting God with the Twists and Turns of Your Story, and is passionate about promoting the message of God-defined womanhood through blogging, speaking, mentoring young women, and hosting Bible studies in her living room. In the end, she’s just a fun-lovin’ Texas girl who adores all things outdoors and is an unashamed dog-lover who snuggles with her little maltipoo whenever she can.

• Sex, Purity, and the Longings of a Girl's Heart
• Website
• Instagram
• Facebook

Shaped by God's Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith 
     {buy now}

Comparison Girl for Teens
     {buy now}

Get our free "Pray God's Promises" prayer guide.

Go to Shannonpopkin.com/PROMISES/ for more information on my neww Bible study, Shaped by God’s Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith. 

Visit ResoundMedia.cc for the Live Leadership Podcast, along with other Gospel centered resources.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:37

Welcome back to another episode of Live Like it's True. Today we're gonna talk about living the true story of gender and sexuality. And let me tell you, this is not gonna be your grandma's list of questions about gender and sexuality, because, man, things have really changed in the last couple of decades and so, as you may know, we in the fall took about three months to talk through the story of Genesis one through three. Here on Live Like it's True, we focus on the narratives, the stories of the Bible, and then we end each conversation by asking how can we live like this story is true? Because we believe that these stories, they give these beautiful, nuanced ideas of how, of who God is and how he has designed for us to live Like we can say more in a story than we could in just a document where we listed out truths. So these stories, they just package up so much. And Genesis one through three this is our origin story, and so we have walked through this text paragraph by paragraph, asking what does it mean to live out of this true story?

Speaker 1: 2:46

And in most of the episodes we spend the bulk of our time talking about the Bible story and then we look at these deep treasures of theology, and then we finish with a small segment on how do we live like this story is true Today. I kind of wanna do the opposite. I want for us to spend most of our time talking about how to live like it's true when we are talking about gender and sexuality, and then we'll refer back, as Kristen and I talk, to these various episodes that we've talked through, these different components of the story. We're gonna devote this whole episode to what it's like living like it's true today, with God's design for marriage and gender and sexuality, and all of these things are under attack, which is no big surprise, because our enemy anything God orders, our enemy wants to disorder. But the questions and the situations that we have to navigate would be completely foreign to our grandparents. Like, if we still have our grandparents, it would be hard to go ask them. Well, like in my class at school or in my college setting, or as a young mom, like, how do we live like these things are true? They just wouldn't have a lot for us, but the Bible does. So we can always refer back to this true story and get all of the help and the hope that we need.

Speaker 1: 4:03

And 1 Corinthians 15, 57 through 58 says be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain. So I'm just wondering, like what if abounding in the work of the Lord involves being steadfast and immovable? And you know, guys, some of my dear friends are doing a fabulous job of being steadfast and immovable in this changing world, and their names are Kristen Clark and Bethany Beale, and they are sisters. They started Girl Defined Ministries and I am just so delighted to have Kristen Clark here. Kristen is married to her best friend, zach, and is the newly adaptive mom of two precious boys from Ukraine. She, like I said, is the co-founder of Girl Defined Ministries, the author of several books, including this one Sex Purity and the longings of a girl's heart. I totally encourage you to get a copy of this book. So, kristen, welcome. It is so good to have you here with me.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Hey, it's so good to be here. Yes, I'm so honored to be on your show and I love, love, love this topic. So I love that you asked me on and that we get to talk about something, like you said, that is so needed, so necessary, but often not talked about in amongst Christians you know Christians and in Christian circles, but something that we all are wrestling with and have questions about.

Speaker 1: 5:31

Yeah, you know I often say Satan doesn't stop at the door of the church. He wants to come in and do all the same work that he's doing out in the world. He wants to do all of that inside the church, but the difference is we're kind of afraid to talk about it, which puts us at a disadvantage. So we're going to put ourselves on the advantage side. Today we're going to talk about all this stuff and I'm so thankful like I said before we got on the call that you and Bethany are so willing to have these hard conversations about topics that not everybody wants to talk about. Honestly, kristen, I am not somebody who's super brave and loves to stand against culture. That's not my thing. And so this is me being brave and saying, kristen, come, let's talk about these hard things.

Speaker 2: 6:13

You are very brave. To host this conversation Takes a lot of bravery.

Speaker 1: 6:18

It is, and you know there are people praying for us today. So, Kristen, why do you think there is so much emphasis on pushing the boundaries right now with gender norms and with our culture? Who's the winner when we push these boundaries Like what is going on here? Why is this?

Speaker 2: 6:36

happening. Yeah, I think it goes back to a deeper heart issue, a deeper issue of we want to define ourselves. We are ultimately rejecting God and saying we know better, we know who we are. Thank you, but no thanks. I will define myself, I will decide who I'm going to be, and that might be one thing today, it might be something different a year from now, it might be something different 10 years from now, but that's my choice. I am completely autonomous, I am not accountable to anyone, I will not answer to anyone except myself, and what I say is my greatest truth. And so I think, ultimately, it comes down to a heart that is rejecting God, that's rejecting God's design, that's rejecting God's authority, that's rejecting God's sovereignty over this world, over creation, and rather us breaking away from him and saying we know better and we're going to do things our way. And it looks like freedom. And I think so many young people buy into this because they say, oh, wow, yeah, I feel these things, I think I'm something different and it just feels, in a moment, a lot easier to define ourselves and go with the flow.

Speaker 2: 7:39

But as we step back and we survey the landscape of sexuality, what we see is not functionality. What we see is not peace and contentment and people thriving. We see so much brokenness, we see so much confusion, we see so much dysfunction. We see people searching and never finding what they're ultimately looking for, because they're trying to find an identity outside of their creator. And so that is my biggest message to young people is take a step back, look around.

Speaker 2: 8:07

It looks great For a minute. There's a facade, but as you dig deeper and you look behind the stories of so many of these even celebrities, famous people who are coming out and saying this is the way. We're not seeing something that's beautiful and functional and thriving. Ultimately, in the end, you just look at so many statistics for just depression and suicide and anxiety. These things are through the roof. They are skyrocketing, and we have to put two and two together and say how can we claim that we have all the answers over here? And yet we look at the numbers and people are declining in happiness, declining in contentment, facing more anxiety, depression, suicide than ever before. Something isn't adding up. And so, as we step back and see that we have to ask the question what is wrong, what is not working? And ultimately it's that we need to turn back to our creator.

Speaker 1: 8:57

That's so good. I agree. It seems like the freeing decision, like I get to decide my identity, whether it's my gender or my sexuality. I get to decide who I am and how I want to live. But I remember in the episode with Kelly Needham when we were talking about male and female. There's just this clarity male and female. He created them, male or female, he created you Like. You don't have to be the creator in the story. We have a creation story and it's already been settled for you. You don't have to burden yourself with that. You can find freedom in allowing the creator of the story to be God and it just relieves that anxiety.

Speaker 1: 9:42

I completely agree. The stats do not support any of the transgender movement. All of the different divergence that we are seeing have only just increased our anxiety and our depression. But respond to the woman who is thinking like I cannot believe my church doesn't affirm the LGBTQ plus community. Like aren't we supposed to love each other? This seems like we're condemning the most marginalized. Like respond to that woman.

Speaker 2: 10:16

Yeah, I mean to put it bluntly you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. So I would say to her you are buying into a lie that says you can find fulfillment, you can find satisfaction, you can find your truest identity outside of your creator. And so, in order to truly be loving, the greatest love I can offer you is to tell you what your creator says about you, not what the world says about you, not what you think about you, not what culture says. You know a man, a woman, lgbtq, you know the whole spectrum, and that the most loving thing I can tell you is what your creator, the God who made you, what he says about you. And a church that truly loves its people is a church that goes to the word and says God, who do you say I am? Because we know we can only find ultimate freedom within our creators design.

Speaker 2: 11:07

So she's it's a hard one, because she's buying into the lie that love is doing whatever you want. Love is being whoever you think you are. Love is not truly love. That's deception, that's lies from the enemy, that is a rejection of God ultimately. And so, again, the most loving thing would be to take her to the word and say Genesis one through three. I love that you just did a whole series on that, because that is truly where the rubber meets the road, and we skip over Genesis one through three and then we try to ask you know, answer all of these questions what is the man, what is the woman, my gender, who am I? And we skip over Genesis one through three and we dismiss it. Oh, that's just kind of Bible stuff, you know.

Speaker 2: 11:44

But let me look in the rest of scripture You're missing the most foundational piece about, like you said, our origin story, where we come from.

Speaker 2: 11:52

So I would lovingly take that woman to Genesis one and two and I would show her God's design for man and woman, male and female. He created them in his image, two genders, no more, no less God's intentional design, and then hopefully help her to see lovingly that that is that God, by making her a woman, he has written her design within her biology. It's not a mystery, she doesn't have to search for it, she doesn't have to discover it, she just has to receive it. It's already been given to her by her creator and she has to receive it as a gift and and ask God for even strength to do that. If that's hard right, I know that can be a journey for some, just walking through discipleship, of even receiving who God has created them to be, but then growing in that, in scripture. What does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be a woman who follows the Lord? So yeah, that's a tough one, but we need to lean into these kind of conversations for sure.

Speaker 1: 12:45

Yeah, I remember in the have you seen the movie in his image? It's a movie, it's really good. We will link to it. Mary Cassian is featured in that movie, but at one point somebody brings up like a parallel analogy. They said like what if there was someone who was struggling with an eating disorder and they were telling you, I'm just so fat? And yet they were like bone thin, and this is how they were describing themselves, their identity. Like would the loving thing be to play along?

Speaker 1: 13:17

No, like that would not be loving them to just let them perpetuate this lie about themselves, like it is loving to draw them back to, like no, this is the truth about you. This is, you know, this is your creator and he has a beautiful design for you. And I think too, kristen, like if we look at that origin story, it's so interesting.

Speaker 1: 13:41

God did put a restriction in the garden, right, he gave them everything to enjoy everything, whatever they wanted, but there was a restriction. There was this tree that was off limits, and I think God was trying to establish like, yes, you have dominion. Like you have this earth to cultivate and keep, and you know to keep pressing out the boundaries of the garden, but you're only going to flourish as long as you stand under my dominion. God is God and we are not. Like there has to be this clear line and so that's what this tree represented. Like are you going to, as you, as you brush past this tree on a regular basis, are you going to treat me like God, or are you going to reach out and take control for yourself of that?

Speaker 2: 14:24

fruit.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Yeah, is it loving to perpetuate the idea that we don't need a God, that we get to decide for ourselves? I mean that's really the question on the table that gets blurry. I just passed a church this week that had big rainbow doors out like two painted doors out in front of the church I thought, wow, oh, it can get so confusing. It feels like that's loving. I know exactly what they're trying to say there. We have an open door.

Speaker 2: 14:50

We will love you, no matter how you come.

Speaker 1: 14:53

Okay, so talk to the young woman. So I think young women have such a hard time. They have such a hard world to live in right now. But the young woman who has friends or siblings who are exploring sexual behaviors and identities too that don't align with Genesis one through three. How do we respond? Like friend to friend, like what does love look like in that setting?

Speaker 2: 15:15

Yeah, well at Girl Defined. We are huge proponents of mentorship for this exact reason. Mentoring older women, that tightest two model of older women mentoring younger women, even 20 something's mentoring teens, or 30 something's mentoring 20 something's, it doesn't matter, you don't have to be really old to mentor someone. But I think that is a huge thing. That's missing right now in our Christian communities is that older women who are walking faithfully in the word are just kind of staying faithful in the word but not passing it on to the next generation. And there is a generation of young women coming up who are facing things I never had to face. I'm in my 30s. Social media was barely barely coming out when I was a teen. I remember when Facebook, you know, with my space, and then Facebook and then later Instagram, and so I remember, even just in a small way, battling some of the things that you see on social media. For more it was or for me it was more just image issues, body image issues, just wanting to measure up to what I saw online with all the pictures. But now it's that times 1000, with every possible filter, every person promoting whatever sexuality that they're currently embracing, you know, doing all the dances and all the reels and all the tiktoks, and you know it's just exploded and we have a generation of young women who are growing up in the church, who are hearing some of the truth from the word, hopefully, but then day in and day out there just inundated with the messages of the world regarding sexuality. And so I think for that woman, what she needs more than anything is for an older woman to come alongside her and go through a book study. You know our own community and the longings of a girl's heart. We include a study guide. That is a great start. You know just tracks to run on to say you're hearing a lot of things. I know it sounds exciting and appealing and you know you might even be questioning things yourself. You know that's okay to have questions, but let's take our questions to God's word. He's not shy about this, he's not bashful about your questions. He has a lot to say, and what he has to say is going to bring you so much more freedom and truth and direction than what your friends have to say, than what you're seeing on social media. So let's discover God's beautiful design together and then taking her and walking with her through God's design, helping her understand it Because I think that what has happened and I felt this growing up in the church to a large extent that's part of the reason why my sister and I wrote this book on sexuality is because for so many years it felt like a hush-hush topic.

Speaker 2: 18:19

It felt like the world had all the fun, the world had all the sex, the world had all of the intrigue, but then in the church it was like hush-hush, we don't talk about it, we don't really mention it except in the context of purity.

Speaker 2: 18:31

Then we might say you know, stay pure, don't do this, don't do that. But outside of that there wasn't a lot of celebration of discipleship, of understanding the beauty of God's design, of it being presented in a compelling, winsome and, quite frankly, just appealing way that we see in scripture. It's beautiful, it's amazing. But I remember having so many of my own questions and struggles, not with regarding my sexuality, but just with sexual sin, more in the line of lust and fantasy and masturbation, things like that, and just struggling to know how to get any answers and feeling terrified to even talk to my parents, who are amazing, loving Christians. But I felt terrified. So I think if we can open up those channels of communication, older women reaching out to younger women saying let's meet once a week, let's grab coffee, let's work through a book study, let's read Genesis together. That would make the hugest impact on the next generation in the most positive way for young women understanding and growing in God's truth and for themselves.

Speaker 1: 19:29

I love that answer, kristen. We're going to circle back to that story about you going to your parents with that issue. I just love that story. But I'm just picturing, like, let's say, you do have a friend. I know of several girls right now who are like in middle school, saying like I don't know if I'm actually a girl, I don't know, I'm wondering about my gender. So if that's your friend, or let's say that's your daughter's friend, I think who it has to really be brave are the bombs in the situation, those mentors. I mean, we have three adult children now, kristen and I have just noticed my husband and I have noticed that any time we say anything remotely insensitive to the questions that the culture is wrestling with, our kids are very quick to correct us Like they have been trained that you do not question you. You know you have to be sensitive. You can't say that they'll say to us. And you know we do want to be super respectful of other people and loving, but we also want to be steadfast and immovable.

Speaker 1: 20:34

And even in the conversations with my own kids. I have to be brave, like I have to be steadfast, I have to be immovable. I feel like a dinosaur, sometimes saying, well, let's go back, yes, and look at what you know, look at what God says. But I, I could envision what if I offered you know, one friend is concerned about another. What if I said, hey, could we meet together, could we work through?

Speaker 1: 20:56

this book Sex purity and longings of a girl's heart Like. Could we work through this together? I would love to meet with you and your friend, or she says to her friend what if we met with my mom or my youth leader or someone of not just as a peer to peer trying to handle these weighty questions, but inviting an older woman into the conversation? I just love that. Have you found that to be successful?

Speaker 2: 21:21

Oh yes, oh yes. And I love that you brought up the moms, because this is new territory for moms to who are raising these daughters going. I never faced any of this. I never had, you know, I had. Yet we all have our struggles, but in for most moms this is new, a whole new level, a whole new world of trying to navigate. And so for moms also to equip themselves, you know, to listen to podcasts like yours, to grab books and resources that are going to help them grow so that they can then disciple their daughters.

Speaker 2: 21:50

Pull that friend in, have that group conversation. If you, the more that you grow yourself, the more confident you become in God's design. And when your daughter comes and says, you know, I'm kind of starting to question. You have so much of it is the peer pressure, it is peer influenced. You know people are calling it. It's like a peer contagion. It is spreading just primarily through peers talking to peers about things that they never used to talk about with each other, and so questions are being raised in these young girls minds like, oh well, I've never even thought about the fact that maybe I'm not actually a girl. You know, it's something for generations. It wasn't a common question. People were even asking and so everyone's asking it. So all of these are people are now questioning.

Speaker 2: 22:32

And for a mom to feel so confident in God's word and to say honey, I understand that you're questioning, I get it, thank you for telling me. Let's talk about this. And then going to the word and saying you can be so confident, 100% confident, that God made you a woman. Do you know why? Because look at your body. He has given you the body of a woman. You are female. So you never have to wonder or, as you question, you can find your confidence in the fact that you can look at your body and say my body and my mind are one. They are attached, they are not detached. I am not a person over here and a mind over here. I am one whole being made in God's image, and he chose to make me a woman. I have the biology of a woman. My brain might feel something different, it doesn't matter. I tell my brain brain, you are wrong.

Speaker 2: 23:16

I am a woman and you stand confidently with your daughter, you help her to embrace that confidence that we see in God's word, to say God, help me to live as a woman, you created me to be a woman. It cannot get any more clear than that. And so I think if moms, like you're saying, they would lean in and they would get courageous and they would grow in their own understanding and then face these questions head on with confidence, I can only imagine how much more confidence that would give their daughters and understanding who they are and who God created them to be.

Speaker 1: 23:45

So true. I remember the time when I learned. I don't remember how the conversation started, but I, my son told me oh, yeah, there are lots of boys, mom, that wear dresses and makeup.

Speaker 1: 23:57

They're dressing as though they're girls at school, and this was news to me. I didn't realize that it happened. You know, once they get in middle school and high school, you're just not in the building as much. And I was surprised and, and you know, I asked him like well, do you interact with these kids? Are you, you know, are you showing love to them? And he's like yeah, and I said what about your lunch table? Would you, would you be willing to sit at a lunch table with them? And he's like well, I think so. But, mom, do you recognize that if I sit with them, I'm saying that I am identifying the same way that they are Like, so I'm, I'm like almost taking a stand with them. Is that what you would have me do? And I was like oh, my goodness, we have some things to think through. It was, we had to talk about these things and I had to work through them and I had to wrestle with like, what does love look like? And you know, in this situation and you know how can I mentor my kids?

Speaker 1: 24:52

And just always, going though back to the word and Christian, I think it's so interesting that our creation story for man and woman is you know, all of the other animals and plants God just spoke them into being, but the creation of the man and the woman it's like, almost like God rolls his sleeves up and says let us make man in our image and and he creates them. In Genesis too, we see the different worms of their creation stories. So, like he made man out of the dirt, you know, out of the ground, he forms his body. And then, instead of making the woman out of the ground, he makes her out of the rib, you know like, reaches his hand in and pulls Mary Cassie and I had this like gory conversation about reaching and pulling out this gory rib and shaping the woman.

Speaker 1: 25:39

But there's so much significance attached to that. She was made for him to fit, to fit him and she was made to be a partner with him, and just all of those significance. And we won't take the time to go through and you know we've done that in other episodes but it's very interesting the way that God formed our bodies. There are metaphors, there are parables in the way that our bodies are formed in the role for men and the role for women, and that they are distinct in that God. I mean, picture him forming your body. He was not confused, he was not indecisive. He does not look at you and say, well, what do you want to be?

Speaker 1: 26:18

He has a plan in place. In the same way that he formed that man out of the dust of the ground and he formed that woman out of the man's rib, like God has a plan in mind when he was knitting. You know that picture of knitting needles.

Speaker 1: 26:32

He was knitting you together in your mom's womb. I love the way that you pointed us. We don't have to wonder, we can get our answers and mom's older women in the church, you know, and we have a lot of women listening who don't have the pleasure of having a family. They would love to have children, but this is a way you can have spiritual daughters. Yes, you know, mentorship is a way to be fruitful and multiply in the way that Adam and Eve were or called. You can be fruitful and multiply through mentoring women who are younger than you, and a younger woman just has to be like a few years younger than you or a little bit. All of us are an older woman and all of us are a younger woman, right.

Speaker 2: 27:14

None of us get to opt out as neither being one or the other Like we are all both in some sense.

Speaker 1: 27:22

So, okay, I don't know if this is going on in Texas, if you haven't heard about this, there are kids who now identify as furries and they wear like little animal ears or tails and they wear like, like collars, like with leashes or whatever. Now I remember Kristen. My kids did. I, cade, went through a very long phase where he thought he was a puppy. He, you know we would have.

Speaker 1: 27:45

We called him Dicey Dog and we patted him on the head and he was always like licking up water on the ground and we had to be like don't look up that water, you know so he, he went through this stage, but I think we were all pretty aware that this was just a phase that he was going through, that this wasn't his ultimate identity like, and that we were kind of pretending we were playing along. And I feel like those lines are getting blurred even with the younger kids. Like these are elementary schools. So how can moms influence their kids? Like this is these are some dangerous. It looks like just fun, maybe in play and being respectful. I can. I can see where someone would tell the story that way. Well, he says he's a dog now, so we're going to respect that. Well, these are dangerous ideas. How can we, as moms or other adults in a child's community, how can we influence kids with the true story.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Yeah, we've got to be reading it to them, telling it to them so much that they are not, that they are able to filter whatever they're seeing, because we're not always going to be with them and as they get older we are for sure not going to be able to shield them from every possible thing. They're going to be in the world, see things in the world and have questions. But the more we can train their mind to be rooted in scripture, in the truth of who God says they are creation, order, the man and the woman, obviously on an age appropriate level Then as they're seeing things, they will have a filter of truth. We kind of talk about it at Girl, defined as like we're putting on our theology glasses, but from a young age, helping kids to be able to see and filter everything they're seeing through these lenses that are helping them. Okay, I see kids dressing up as animals. Oh, I see it. I'm at the grocery store and I see a man, clearly a man, but he's wearing a dress and high heels and acting like a woman. What's going on? Okay, I can filter through the lens of what I know to be true, as I'm seeing something confusing. And even for our boys.

Speaker 2: 29:40

I'm a newly adopted mom, where a year and a half in my boys are 12 and eight, though, so they are at that age where they are. They have questions, they are seeing things. They are especially the 12 year old like he's getting up there in age, and I remember being 12 and all the questions that I had and the things that I was wrestling with, and so I already feel like we missed a lot of years. We got to make up for lost time, and so there are just different books that I read with them regularly. I cannot think of the name of one, but it's something like God made me, something like that, but it's a picture book, and it just walks through very simply the entire idea of Genesis one and two that God made girls, god made boys, that what he chose for you to be is his good plan for you. And no, a girl cannot become a boy, a boy cannot become a girl. There are only two genders, but it's explaining it in very simple terms, and so I periodically pull it out and we read it together, and they're hearing it from me and at this point in their life, they're accepting it as truth.

Speaker 2: 30:33

Oh, okay, yeah, oh God, yeah, of course God made that. Yeah, they look around. Yeah, that makes sense, okay, and so as things pop up, we can refer back. We'll remember God's design. Yes, you know this is happening over here. I understand that's confusing. Let's talk about it and then, always taking it back to God's original design, I think parents need to be having these conversations at a much, much younger age than maybe maybe the previous generation felt was necessary, because of the exposure that is happening, younger and younger and younger, in little kids.

Speaker 2: 31:03

Tv shows you know they're sneaking it in all over the place, this sexual revolution, this agenda, it's just coming into every nook and cranny. And so, as Christian parents, we have to be that much more proactive to train our children in the truth, to help them understand the beauty of God's design, the clarity and, some ways, the simplicity of God's design. So then, when they look out at the confusion, the complication, the dysfunction, they go okay, I see, I see what's going on here, you know, and they can make those connections for themselves.

Speaker 1: 31:33

Yeah, so good, I think. One little caveat that I would add is when we're training our kids, I think it's really important that we don't communicate an element of disgust. In my book Comparison Girl, I talked about how, like often, those of us who grow have grown up in the church like these ideas are so foreign, as they should be, but we are very quick to have this like oh, I can't believe like that is discussed and our kids pick that up, and either then we put a wedge between us and our kids, because these are their friends.

Speaker 1: 32:06

And or they adopt our attitude of disgust and so like we cannot communicate an element of disgust without saying something about ourselves and what we're saying is we're superior, they're the ones who are so deceived, but we well, all of us are deceived. Like sin is a disease, then we all have it. But what we want is to find our answers in like we've been saying in this true story in Genesis, like we can teach our kids to say I believe God created us man and woman and this is a good story, this is our good origin story.

Speaker 2: 32:40

But let's let's talk for a moment about masturbation.

Speaker 1: 32:44

I'm so proud of you, Kristen, like you have been so brave and so vulnerable. Nobody's ever going to accuse you of not being brave girl, but you did a whole, a whole episode on masturbation. You just talked about how it is a counterfeit version of God's design for sexual intimacy, you know, as revealed in Genesis two. So what do we see in that story that shows that masturbation is counterfeit?

Speaker 2: 33:11

Yeah, for so many years. I would approach the question, just backing up even a tiny bit the question of masturbation from is it wrong? Does the Bible have a verse I can point to you to say this is wrong? You know, and I would well, I can't really find anything. I guess it's not much of a problem.

Speaker 2: 33:27

And as I learned and grew in my understanding of God's greater plan for sex, for intimacy, this beautiful gift he's placed within the covenant of marriage my eyes were open to not only ask the question is this right or wrong? But does this fit into God's beautiful plan for intimacy? Is masturbation an authentic expression of sexual intimacy? And as I looked in Genesis, one, you know, as we look later in scripture and we see the picture of marriage, we see Song of Solomon, we see more of this beautiful story unpacked in the New Testament and we see that God is the creator of sex, that it's not a dirty, it's not a bad word, it's not a dirty thing, but it's a beautiful gift that God invented. You know it was his invention we can forget that sometimes and he placed sex within the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman as a celebration of that covenant relationship. And so when we look at that sexual covenant celebration, we see many things. We see a man and a woman serving one another. We see that sex was not meant to be an isolated act just for pleasure. We see a man and a woman, a relationship. So we see that sex is supposed to be intimate, it's supposed to be relational. The same word yada that is used for this deep knowing, that's used for sex in scripture so often, is the same word yada that God uses in many verses talking about his knowing of us. I knew you, you know that deep knowing, not in a sexual way, but in a deep, intimate, relational way.

Speaker 2: 34:56

And so sex ultimately points back to this incredible deep knowing that God wants to have with his children a relational knowing. And so as I saw this greater picture and I saw the gospel and how earthly sexual intimacy, the covenant of marriage, ultimately reflects Christ in the church and this deep knowing that God wants to have with his children, it was like like my mind blowed. I had no idea that it was that deep, you know, that theological, that beautiful. And so then, when I looked at my struggle with masturbation, it was so clear this is not an authentic, beautiful expression of sexual intimacy. There's no intimacy, there's no relationship, there's no pouring out, there's no serving. It's all about me and my pleasure, my lust, my struggle. It's completely detached from what God, how God created sex to be expressed and enjoyed as a celebrity. There's no celebration, it's just myself, you know, indulging in my pleasure.

Speaker 2: 35:47

And so, as I saw that, I knew I was like and I came before the Lord. I remember still today, just broken, so repentant God forgive me. I have been believing lies, I have been walking in the sin for years and I just felt so much shame but then so much freedom as I brought it to the Lord and asked for his forgiveness in repentance. But then I knew I was like this is a sin I've been wrestling with. I've got to tell someone and I had been at a conference and it was for young people and they had talked about sexual sin, bringing it into the light. You know, telling your parents if they're people that you can go to, to talk to and I knew mine were. They were believers and they loved me and it took all the courage in the world for me as a teen girl to go to my parents and can tell them about this struggle and ask them to pray for me and to hold me accountable.

Speaker 2: 36:33

And that was like the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life up to that point. But it was when I brought that sin into the light and I asked for help and I confessed. That was the turning point for me on my journey toward freedom. So for anyone listening, wrestling alone, we are not meant to walk this Christian life, even our struggles, alone. Galatians 6 talks about bearing one another's burdens, and that is what we are called to do. But if we don't share our burdens, if we don't get honest about our struggles, if we don't bring our secrets in into the light, then nobody can bear those with us. We will continue to struggle and wrestle and feel isolated. So that would be my biggest encouragement to anyone listening Bring it into the light to a trusted believer who can then come alongside you, hold you accountable, pray for you, encourage you and just be there for you as you navigate this.

Speaker 1: 37:20

I'm so proud of you for doing that Like that. You know you can just see the whole rest of your life and the way that God has blossomed into this ministry that you have. But it was those little decisions as a teenage girl that you were making to surrender to God and to follow his plan, inviting your parents in. I can't imagine that was easy at all. And those who are struggling and listening right now struggling. I think sexual sins are unique. The Bible says that all the other sins are created or are committed outside the body, but our sexual sin that's against our own selves. And yeah, I see like an interesting parallel with the isolation factor.

Speaker 1: 38:27

This isn't, I would say, masturbation and pornography. They're both like people make the argument that, well, I'm not hurting anyone. I mean pornography. I don't know how you can make that argument, because there's someone who's being hurt by the actual pornography being created. But you know masturbation. You're like I'm not hurting anyone.

Speaker 1: 38:46

It's just a sin and isolation. However, like go back to the story, remember how God created Adam. And then he said it is not good that a man be alone. And then he has him, name all the animals to make the point. Like, okay, yeah, there's nobody fit for you, like you don't have a partner in this story. And then he creates the woman and he brings the woman to Adam and he's like this is now bone of my bones. He sees this connection like they are the same yet they are different. And then they come together in this beautiful union.

Speaker 1: 39:17

God is like loving this idea of bringing them together and giving them as a gift to each other, and none of that is displayed in masturbation or pornography. This giving of one another to each other, like there's a selflessness to that, but there's also like a pleasure of enjoying intimacy, being known by each other. Like that is completely foreign in those, like you just said, pornography and masturbation. So I think there's just such a such a compelling, winsome idea that comes when we meditate on the actual story that God has given us and then, like that little kid who wants to wear the knapsack or wear the costume or whatever, are we going to live out of this beautiful designer. Are we going to be deceived? You know, satan always wants for us to be in isolation, serving ourselves. Like would you say? That's true, like that's the consistent theme is he wants us to be isolated and serving ourselves.

Speaker 2: 40:21

Yep, we'll think about sheep. You know, scripture has endless illustrations with sheep and shepherds. And you think of a sheep that wanders away by itself in isolation. That sheep is in danger, that sheep is not safe, that sheep is not thriving, that sheep is not in a good place, heading for anything good. And so we can take that same analogy so often used of the sheep stick together, and they stick together under the care and watch of their shepherd, and the shepherd protects them and the shepherd guides them, and the shepherd keeps them safe, and the shepherd leads them toward what is true, leads them towards streams of water, leads them toward life.

Speaker 2: 40:55

And so, when we get isolated, our enemy, who is referred to as a lion prowling around seeking for a lost sheep to devour, we just become sitting ducks. We become easy targets for the enemy to deceive, to lie to, to distract us, to even make us believe, settle lies. Like you said, I'm not hurting anyone and we're forgetting that, as followers of Jesus, our greatest mission isn't just to not hurt anyone, but to live like Christ, to be changed, to be transformed, to be holy, to be set apart, a people set apart for his glory, to worship him with every part of our lives, even the secret parts that no one sees. That is our high and holy calling as God's children, and so we have.

Speaker 2: 41:35

We're deceived, though, when we're isolated. When we're in community, when we are allowing others to come into our lives, we're vulnerable. We're honest, we're all broken. Every single one of us is sexually broken in one way or another. We need the grace of Christ, we need his constant forgiveness and strength to walk this journey of faithfulness for his glory, and he created and designed us to do that within community. And so, yes, the enemy loves isolation, because that's where you can get us, but as we intentionally pursue the body of Christ, pursue community, there is so much safety found there. Yeah, so true.

Speaker 1: 42:08

And it's not just community. It's a community designed to listen to the voice of Arka Chepard. Right, because our kids can be easily, like you've been saying, like they're, they're listening to each other. They are a herd of sheep that are all going off a cliff. You know, I've heard that sheep do that. They run together and they all go off a cliff together, but we need to be sheep who, collectively, in community, we're all listening.

Speaker 1: 42:32

Like wait, is that what Jesus would say to us? Like that doesn't sound like something he would say in John 10. Jesus is speaking and he talks about like the one who is climbing over the sheep pen. That is not the shepherd. You know our enemy. He doesn't come think I'm I'd like to influence you now. No, he creeps in with these ideas. He's sneaky, he sneaks in among the sheep and he tries to deceive, and we always have to go back to wait. Am I truly listening for the voice of my good shepherd? And you know, I just love that picture of you going in. Tell us, though, how did your parents respond when you like I think you said it was late at night, they were getting into bed and you?

Speaker 2: 43:10

said like can I share something with y'all?

Speaker 1: 43:12

It was just this moment of vulnerability. How did they respond? I want you to paint a picture for what it could be for some, for some of our listeners.

Speaker 2: 43:20

Yeah, well, I knew my parents loved the Lord, so I knew I was going into talk to two people that loved me very much and loved the Lord and wanted God's best for me. I already knew that going into that conversation with them. But, yes, I was trembling, I was terrified, and I knocked on their door and I said can we talk? And they said, sure, come on, in, no problem. You know they could tell that I looked mortified. So they just we sat down and they said you know what's on your heart? And I couldn't even get the words out before tears just spilled down my face and it took me honestly, a few minutes to just kind of regain composure and to say that I had been really struggling with masturbation for years and that I just felt so ashamed and so trapped and that I wanted to share it with them, to finally bring it into the light and to just I just asked them, you know, can you help me, can you pray for me? And of course, they were so amazingly gracious and were so grateful for my honesty and vulnerability and they were, I think, so happy that I was inviting them into something that was so personal and so hard to share and to talk about, and they gave me a big, big, long hugs and we prayed together right then and they said they would love to join me in this journey of just fighting this battle, which just you know it's more just prayer, and you know how's it going, how are you doing. You know resources hey, this might be a great resources.

Speaker 2: 44:39

I started digging into some books that really helped me in my understanding of God's design for sex, sexuality, and so they were so amazingly gracious and if anyone listening is thinking, yeah, I think my parents would respond that way. They also love the Lord. Don't wait until you feel ready to do it, because you probably won't ever feel ready. I literally for several days just prayed God, give me the courage, give me the courage. And finally I was like I still don't feel very brave.

Speaker 2: 45:04

I'm just going to have to do it scared, and sometimes we just have to do it scared and we have to obey the Lord, take just little baby steps of obedience in the Lord's strength, asking him for help and then just interesting the outcome to him. But if you feel like your parents aren't believers or they're not someone you can go to for whatever reason, think of a godly woman in your church, if you're a woman, someone who loves the Lord, that you can just say can I share something? I've been carrying this burden for so long and I just can't carry it anymore alone. Can I share this with you? Can you please help me walk this? In this struggle, I want to be free and I don't know a single godly, god fearing woman who would ever say no to someone who came to them, genuinely sharing their heart and their struggle.

Speaker 1: 45:46

That's so compelling and I think, like your parents so beautifully represented God in that situation. Because when we see Adam and Eve, the minute they eat the fruit they're cowering, they're trying to cover their bodies in shame. No longer can they just be vulnerable. They're sin now and I have to cover and I have to hide. And we would expect to see God. I think Kim Cache Tate and I talked about this. We'd expect to see God stomping through the garden like where are you? Did you eat what I told you not to? And sometimes parents do respond that way and we hear that disgust and that just closes the door. So we cannot be parents or mentors like that. We can't communicate disgust over each other's sin.

Speaker 1: 46:31

Look at how beautiful God approached them. He came, he came with questions, gentle questions when are you, have you eaten? You know he invited them and the moment, the beautiful thing, is the moment they confessed. Eve says I ate, adam says I ate. The question cease. And so God is not. He's not digging in, trying to like. And what do you think you're doing? No, he just he gives us an opportunity to confess and we need to be the kind of people who give each other opportunity to confess. Actually, in our marriage, kristin, we do this, my husband and I, because we know the power that darkness and hiding can have over us. So we have this deal that if we are ever tempted with somebody else, we share it with each other. And it's hard. I remember I ran into an old boyfriend years ago and I saw him in, my heart fluttered and I'm like I've got kids hanging on me like look at this.

Speaker 1: 47:28

It's different than in high school. And I saw him and I was just like, oh, my goodness, and I like for the next, like 24 hours. I was just stuck, you know, because all of those imaginations are awakened and you know just the thoughts I used to have, like what if we got married?

Speaker 1: 47:44

and all of those and like that was just awakened in me and I could not stop thinking about it. It was just on repeat in my mind and so I decided, okay, I'm going to play this card we have. We have committed this to each other, that we'll be that safe place. So I shared with him, like I saw this old boyfriend and I have been just had this temptation to think about him in ways that I shouldn't and I'm so sorry, I so want to be committed and an honorable wife to you. And he just hugged me and said it's okay, I, you know, I forgive you and let's just pray together.

Speaker 1: 48:20

You know and, and you know what, kristen, it was gone that temptation because when you bring that into the marriage, like into this pain, and I picture this place where we want to represent God's good intention for marriage, like we don't want to be deceived, we don't want, but that's what happens in isolation, you know, and I, my husband, over the years we have been that safe place. I know not all marriages can handle that. You have to, you have to know your own marriage. But I think then finding someone else that you can confide in, someone who will point you to the truth and be that safe place. And so you know, god created us male and female. God created sex for marriage. He created this whole covenant, this whole beautiful image to reflect Christ in the church.

Speaker 1: 49:03

We've talked about that in past episodes. Any closing thoughts, Kristen, on how we can live like this story is true.

Speaker 2: 49:09

Oh goodness be be plugged into the word. I mean we, we as women Christian women are so often not women of the word. We are more women of the world and we're soaking in the world's messages through the shows that we're watching vinging Netflix, you know, and you know I love a good show as much as the next girl. But just being mindful of what we're consuming, and are we being shaped more by the world's version of love, of romance, of marriage, of, you know, dating, flings, one night stands, sexual identity, are we being, subtly and slowly, without even realizing it, being shaped by the world's messages about sexuality more than we are by the truth of God's word and his beautiful design?

Speaker 2: 49:51

And that has been a challenge for me over the years, because I'm no superhuman, you know. I have struggles just as much as the next girl. And there are times in my life seem like you were there, these temptations that come in or these thoughts, and you know they feel so appealing, they seem so good in the moment and just kind of, oh, that seems like a fun path to kind of wander down in my mind but recognizing, oh, whoa, I was. That was a little like a little lure out there and I was taking the bait.

Speaker 2: 50:15

You know, Lord, please forgive me, help me, but we have to be women who are rooted in the word to even be able to recognize those lies that can be so subtle, Like the nuance could be so small, and if we're not rooted, we will take the bait. It is so easy, it is so hard. We are still in our bodies, in this flesh. So my biggest encouragement to every woman would be just ask yourself right now are you a woman who is shaped more by the world the world's a person of sexuality or a woman who is shaped by God's word regarding sexuality? And if you are honest and you say yeah, it's for sure the world, then today can be a day where you say I don't want that to be my story anymore.

Speaker 2: 50:50

God, help me, grow me and get in some resources. Listen to you know, I'm sure if you're listening to this show right now, that's a great start for growing in your understanding of God's design. But but decide, decide what you're going to be. I want to be a woman of the word and then be faithful in community, in the body of Christ, in your resources, in your time, in the word, to grow in your understanding of who God is, the gospel and his amazing sexual design, which is so good and so beautiful.

Speaker 1: 51:18

So true, and I think you know just that picture of a girl with her laptop, with her phone, or a woman my age, like anyone, you know, I love my phone, just like the next team you know, but being influenced so heavily, like TikTok and Instagram.

Speaker 1: 51:36

all of these different ways were influenced, but yeah, tv shows are imaginations, like oh, that's such a good emanation. Living like it's true that God's word is the truth. This is the true story versus what the world is feeding us, and a great way to come back to the truth is with this book. Kristen and Bethany co-wrote Sex, purity and the Longings of a Girl's Heart. Kristen, thank you so very much for being with me. It was such a pleasure.