Jesus's Revealing Question, "What do you want?" {Amber Cullum}

"What do you want me to do for you?" When Jesus asked this question, first of his two disciples, and then of a blind beggar named Bartimaeus, their responses revealed their hearts. How would you answer? What might this reveal? Will you follow Jesus if you see a cross up ahead?

In this episode with Amber Cullum, we're looking at the story of Blind Bartimaeus, and how his response to this question, "What do you want?" was completely different from James and John's response in the scene before. So what can we learn from disciples who were blind, and a blind man who sees?

Listen in as we discuss how to live like it's true that there's a cross up ahead, but that Jesus is the Son of David who will ultimately heal all that is broken.

Amber Cullum is a physical therapist turned stay-at-home mom, podcast host, and speaker who has always loved connecting with people through their hardships, passions, and faith. She's the host of the "Grace Enough" podcast.

Guest: Amber Cullum

Bible Passage: Jesus Heals Blind Bartimaeus - Mark 10:46-52 ESV

Get your Freebie: The Live Like It's True Workbook

Mentioned Resources

• Article: 12 Podcasts You Don’t Want To Miss
• Grace Enough Podcast - with Shannon as Guest
• Romans 8:28 - All Things for Good Bible Passage
• Jennifer Rothschild's 413 Podcast - With Shannon as Guest

Amber Cullum is a physical therapist turned stay-at-home mom, podcast host, and speaker who has always loved connecting with people through their hardships, passions, and faith.

After moving to Raleigh, NC with her husband and 3 young children she was encouraged to dream again in the midst of the daily grind.  That was the beginning of Grace Enough Podcast, a weekly show with 220+ episodes published that focuses on how God can use any story to impact His kingdom.

Grace Enough has been featured in Christianity Today as 1 of 12 Podcasts You Don’t Want To Miss.

Connect with Amber:

Website: GraceEnoughPodcast.com

Instagram:

Shaped by God's Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith 
     {buy now}

Comparison Girl for Teens
     {buy now}

Get our free "Pray God's Promises" prayer guide.

Go to Shannonpopkin.com/PROMISES/ for more information on my neww Bible study, Shaped by God’s Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith. 

Visit ResoundMedia.cc for the Live Leadership Podcast, along with other Gospel centered resources.

Transcript

Shannon: 1:37

Amber Colom welcome to Live Like it's True.

Amber: 1:40

Oh, shannon, it's good to be here finally. I feel like we've been planning this for a little while, so it's nice to be together, it is really nice to be together.

Shannon: 1:49

I have enjoyed getting to know you through the Speak Up conference. That's where we first met, that's right. I remember you were in a little speaker critique group and we just had so much fun in there, I know.

Amber: 2:00

I was so nervous about that too, shannon, and now I'm like, oh my gosh, that's where I ended up meeting the people that for the next year I really spoke with and got to know a little bit better, so that was cool.

Shannon: 2:10

Wow, well, that's a huge plug there for the Speak Up conference. It does seem so intimidating, but we're really just there to help encourage each other. That's right, and my friend Shannon and I are hosting a women teaching women program here in Grand Rapids, where we have 12 women who are going to be with us for nine months. That's so awesome. Yeah, they'll prepare three messages and get feedback on them. We're going to walk through how do you put together a Bible message and then let them try it and get real time feedback.

Amber: 2:40

I love that.

Shannon: 2:41

We're under the umbrella of teachequipcom. It's a ministry that Kelly Needham and her friend Lindsey Shot have put together, but I'm just so excited to give even more. Like a conference, you can only do so much, but I think that feedback in that real time, I agree. Yeah, encouragement is so imperative. It's all the stuff I wish I would have had when I was first starting out as a Bible teacher.

Amber: 3:02

Yeah, well, and then to do it in person, you said, is nice, because everybody's got to get up there and give their little talk and that can feel intimidating, but really it's just a way to grow, yeah so true.

Shannon: 3:12

So let me give you a bio here to our listeners. You are a physical therapist, turn to stay at home mom podcast host and you're a speaker. You've always loved connecting with people through their hardships and their passion and their faith. I love that about you. You guys live in Raleigh, north Carolina, right, and you've got three kids that's right. And you are the host of the Grace Enough podcast. You've got 220 episodes, oh my goodness. You're talking about how to focus on how God can use any story to impact the kingdom, and I was so excited to see that you were listed in 12 podcasts you don't want to miss through Christianity Today. That's pretty exciting, amber.

Amber: 3:51

It was really cool. It was a surprise to me too, so I was like, oh, this is fun. How'd that happen? Thank you God.

Shannon: 3:57

Yeah, that's so cool. So we're going to talk blindness today. Have you ever met a blind person, you know anybody who's blind, or have you ever gone through any vision issues?

Amber: 4:06

So in college I had a good friend through Fellowship of Christian Athletes who actually went blind his sophomore year of high school, oh my goodness. And so he has an incredible story, travis. And so he was with us a lot on campus using his seeing stick and we would lead him through campus. I walked down the aisle with him during a friend's wedding and so, yeah, I do have a little bit of that idea of what it's like to rely on others for your needs, really for everything. Yeah.

Shannon: 4:40

I don't have, I don't believe, I can't think of any blind friends, but I got to be interviewed by Jennifer Rothschild on her 413 podcast. I am just amazed at that woman. You would have never guessed that she wasn't reading anything. You and me, amber, we both probably have notes in front of us, right? Yeah, like six pages.

Shannon: 5:00

We try to sound like we're not reading, but I mean, if I didn't have anything visually to prompt me when I'm speaking or when I'm posting one of these podcast episodes? Jennifer was just amazing and I don't think she has anything in braille in front of her, but just the way that her mind, like she, is focused in on the conversation and she's listening really tuned in and listening. I think that probably blind people have a better sense of listening and noticing details through auditory ways.

Amber: 5:29

That's what I would think. And smell, and probably I mean smell and touch right. Sure, and I think that's true of anyone like, even somewhat like. My niece is deaf, ok, but your other senses become heightened because that's the way you receive and process information.

Shannon: 5:43

Yeah, and I wonder if that's sort of the case with this guy in the story we're going to read today. Blind Bartimaeus is the story we're going to look at. I think we're going to see he does have sort of a heightened awareness that others don't have in the stories. So let's have you go ahead and start by reading Mark, chapter 10. Let's do 46 through 49. And you're going to read in the ESV translation that's correct, ok.

Amber: 6:04

And they came to Jericho and he was leaving Jericho with his disciples and a great crowd, bartimaeus, a blind beggar, the son of Timeus, was sitting by the roadside and when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me. And many rebuked him, telling him to be silent. But he cried out all the more son of David, have mercy on me. And Jesus stopped and said call him.

Shannon: 6:39

So Jesus and his disciples are traveling. There's this large crowd, they're traveling, they're coming into Jericho, and so what's surprising or interesting by what greets him there?

Amber: 6:50

What's most surprising to me about this passage is actually the few verses above it, where he is traveling with his disciples into Jericho and before he even encounters Bartimaeus, two disciples, james and John, look at him and ask him for something. And Jesus says what do you want me to do for you? And so what we're gonna see is the passage goes on that he asked that exact same question of blind Bartimaeus. And so here. What surprises me at first is that they're just already in this conversation. So all these people are talking and all of a sudden somebody sitting on the side of the road begins to call out to Jesus, and they kind of want him to ignore this guy on the side of the road.

Shannon: 7:39

But Jesus doesn't Right. I am more and more convinced that this story is tied to the one before. And actually our church just went through Mark and one of our teaching pastors is Dan Mike and he was constantly referring to Markey and Sandwiches, where Mark will use two similar stories that sandwich some other events, or he'll start a story and not finish it and put other stuff in the middle, and they are meant to all be tied together. And so I think what happened with James and John is sort of like the middle of the sandwich, and then this blindness thing is wrapping it up. I'll just kind of refer back to what has happened with James and John and, just to be clear, we're going back before the Bartimaeus story.

Shannon: 8:18

Jesus has just said to his disciples look you guys, I'm gonna be handed over to the chief priests, they're gonna condemn me to death. And then I'm gonna be handed over the Gentiles and they're gonna mock me, spit on me, they're gonna flog me, they're gonna kill me and I will rise again in three days. He drops this bombshell and it's so specific. I was just so taken by like okay, I'm gonna go here, I'm gonna go there, and this is exactly what's going to happen. And then worst timing ever James and John come up after and they're like hey, there's something we'd like you to do. I was like can we?

Shannon: 8:51

ask you. And he's like yeah, what do you want me to do for you? And they're like you've been talking about these thrones. You're gonna be sitting on a throne, there's gonna be 12 thrones and we're just wondering can we claim those seats on? You're right and you're left and you're just like what? Did you even hear what he just said? Like he's headed to Jerusalem, he's gonna be handed over, he's gonna be killed and you're asking for thrones. What's clear about that situation is these disciples they did not see, they were blind. Like they heard all the information, but they were completely blind to what is going to happen and really, to some extent, to who Jesus is. They're picturing him a king that's gonna sit on a throne. He's gonna be a king who wears a crown of thrones. So they're very blind. But Bartimaeus Like what I think is surprising here in this is he's the guy who sees right. He's calling out because what does he call Jesus? He says Jesus, son of David. Have mercy on me. What's surprising about calling Jesus son of David there?

Amber: 9:48

Well, it's signifying that he actually knows that this is Messiah, that this is more than just your typical Jewish rabbi, and that's really important because we're all disciples of something right. We think like, oh, only disciples were the 12 men mentioned who Jesus called, but actually every rabbi had disciples in this time and place, and so the only thing that really sat Jesus' disciples apart from other disciples are the people who recognize that he was the true son of God. He was the Messiah that they had been waiting on, and I think, with James and John at this point, they hadn't reached a point of desperation, right? They were still thinking we're looking for that king to set us free from Rome, and blind Bartimaeus was like I just wanna be well.

Shannon: 10:46

That's a heart motive. Thing right, yeah, yeah.

Amber: 11:32

Because we're selfish people, like I'd like to say I would not do what James and John did, but the reality is we focus on ourselves so much and that's exactly what they were doing. Can you give us power and position to be the ones favored out of the 12 who are walking with you?

Shannon: 11:50

It's almost like they're looking for a king who will lift them up. Yeah, they're looking for this kingdom like throne's positions, power they're looking at, like the oppression of Rome as the thing they would like to be saved from. Bartimaeus is looking at the oppression of this broken world and all that's wrong with the world. That's what he wants to be saved from. He's not asking for some throne, he just wants to be free from the chains of his blindness and like really blindness in every other physical element. You're a physical therapist right, amber yeah.

Shannon: 12:23

So you know what people have to endure? Yes, like the stuff that they have to go through, either because their body is degenerating or they've been in some accident, or just all the terrible things that happen in this world. None of that is what God had intended. That's right. In the Garden of Eden we were meant to have bodies that didn't fail us right. And this guy is experiencing blindness, and not only blindness, but this put him in society. It turned him into a beggar. This was not a society. That Add braille.

Amber: 12:55

Yeah, braille, or walking sticks that led you down the road, or things on the side of the road that will actually make a noise to tell you when you can cross. I mean, it was a different world, yeah, they were just marginalized.

Shannon: 13:07

There was no relief for them. They didn't live in a society that lifted them up, they lived in a society that put them down. He was a beggar and he had to rely on the mercy of other people. You know, Jesus came talking about the kingdom, Like that's really his message. If you look at like why did Jesus come? What did he talk about? It's the kingdom, the kingdom, the kingdom. That's right, Since the disciples are right. He's gonna sit on a throne, but the kingdom of God is throwing off all oppression of all time. It's like Jesus will return and he will sit on a throne and he will issue in the kingdom. And this is gonna be when the world, the whole world in all of its complexity, it will all be set right. There will be no more blindness, no more suffering, no more pain, no more sorrow, no more death right yeah.

Shannon: 13:56

That's what this king came to set right and it's like this guy sees it. He sees he calls him son of David. You're exactly right, this is a Messiah term. And also, like I think it's interesting, these people around him they're like just shut up, you know they're annoyed. Have you ever been around an annoying person like that, amber, where you're just like would you please be quiet?

Amber: 14:17

Well, I'd like to say no, but yes. And I've been that annoying person. Oh yeah, me too.

Shannon: 14:23

Yeah, I don't have little kids anymore, but mommy, mommy, mommy, yeah, and I remember it. And like, when you're around somebody who they're so numb to it, they don't even hear it anymore. Their kid like mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, and they tune it out. But you can't. You're just like can I please tell that kid to be quiet? It's just, it's overwhelming. And that's how this proud is responding to him. Yeah.

Amber: 14:43

Yes, but it's his persistence that really stands out to me. Yes, it's the persistence of Bartimaeus of I'm not really interested in all these people shutting me out, because I believe that there is someone walking down the path that is the true son of God and I believe that he can heal me from this. So I have to make a choice Am I gonna be quiet as a response to the crowd, or am I gonna keep pleading my case, hoping that I might have a chance for him to address me? Absolutely, it's a persistence and a faith thing.

Shannon: 15:20

Yeah, persistence, that's such a good word. And I wonder, amber, if, when you're blind, a lot of the hierarchy that we experience all around us, it does have to do with what people look like, the clothes that they're wearing, the superiority complex, the way that they carry themselves. When you're blind, you're immune to all of that. He's living in this world where he is put down by everyone around him. He's actually sitting down, he's begging by the side of the road and he's living in this world where all the seeing people, they all know who the important ones are and who the unimportant ones are. Right, they're in this comparison world where everybody's trying to measure up. Look at the two disciples. They're like even among the 12 and they're trying to elbow past each other and get to those thrones.

Shannon: 16:04

They're all about being lifted up. Well, this guy I think in a sense he gets it. He sees more clearly than the rest of the people. None of that really matters. All that matters is getting to Jesus. Being heard by him, being seen by him I love that word persistent, he's willing to be undignified, even when everybody else is putting him down, like would you please be quiet? He doesn't bother him, he just calls out even more loudly like hey, son of David over here, over here, he does not care.

Shannon: 16:33

He is not going to be quiet, even by the people bothered by him.

Amber: 16:37

I think when we think about our society today, if you just imagine in your head right now how we look upon beggars, if you live in a city, you've probably encountered this and we all have certain attitudes towards that. Yeah, a lot of that is based on what our experience is. I do think with Bartimaeus he's doing what he's always done, which is beg for provision, but it's the son of David, part Right, right. I remember studying this originally and asking the question of was he just calling out to him a name that he had heard other people say, or is he calling out to him because of what he heard? He really believed, and we see, as the story goes on, it has to do with his belief. So something about his begging and persistence here was different than his daily life of begging. Yeah, so this is not a first time occurrence, for him.

Amber: 17:34

He is a beggar, which means when someone passes you I'm asking for food and water and clothing and all of that. But the difference here is again going back to the heart. His motive for getting well was different.

Amber: 17:48

Yeah, and so Jesus's response. What stands out to me and what I love about Jesus is that he does judge the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. You know, that's what we hear God say in Samuel about David, and it's that I stop and I pay attention, because I know the heart motive behind that. Yeah, and so he is willing to engage with anyone, anyone who calls out to him. It doesn't matter your status, it doesn't matter your race, it doesn't matter your gender, your past, your future. None of those things he stops and says call him. That is incredible Right.

Shannon: 18:28

It's interesting too to compare him receiving James and John and their question Like he's willing to talk to them too. That's right. But this guy and Jesus knows the differences in their hearts. He knows what he's dealing with here, with both of them, but he asks an interesting question to both of them, which we're going to get to. Let's look at this question that Jesus asks can you pick up where we left off and read to 52?

Amber: 18:52

Yes. And they called to the blind man, saying to him take heart, get up, he is calling you. And throwing off his cloak, he sprang up and came to Jesus and Jesus said to him what do you want me to do for you? And the blind man said to him Rabbi, let me recover my sight. And Jesus said to him go your way. Your faith has made you well. And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way. That's a beautiful story, isn't it? Oh, it's so great.

Shannon: 19:28

It's so great. So what's surprising, though, are interesting about how Bartimaeus responds. So Jesus says call him over here. What?

Amber: 19:35

do you notice there? Well, that he throws off his cloak and takes off running, and so, as a blind person like you, either have to be super familiar with where you are, which he probably was. But it's this idea of I'm being welcomed and I am seizing the opportunity. I mean, I know I'm at the bottom of the totem pole and someone who's not is calling me and I am taking advantage of that. And that is Jesus. He calls us all the same.

Shannon: 20:06

Yeah, I noticed to those action words, bartimaeus, like he threw off his coat, he jumped up or he sprang up and he comes to Jesus. Like these are like immediate, like he is eager. I mean this is his moment yes, you know he is not going to waste this moment and I mean I don't know, did he spring up and just kind of move in the direction of the voice and did people like take his arm or help him along?

Amber: 20:28

Like and I don't know why did he take his coat off?

Shannon: 20:30

Maybe just he didn't want to be bothered by anything holding him back, I guess. Or maybe it was the cloak that he used to sleep in. You know, it says right, they usually just had one cloak and he just threw that aside, like throw off everything that would hinder you from getting to Jesus, and just this beautiful eagerness. But then here's this question we were kind of alluding to before what's interesting about what Jesus asks him?

Amber: 20:53

Well, it's the same exact question that he asked James and John what do you want me to do for you? And I think that's the same question he often asks us because, like Bartimaeus, we are needy people. We're needy people in that we have selfish wants, but we're needy people because we're sinful people. And I wonder sometimes if you were just to imagine yourself as Bartimaeus. You know, I'm sitting on the side of the road and I want the Lord, like I want healing, I want hope, I want a different story for my children. And he looks at you and he says what do you want?

Amber: 21:31

me to do for you? Are you actually coming to him with that and saying this is what I want and you can do that in a way that is unselfish? But he was persistent, you know, in that, and so I think just the fact that Jesus is asking all of us that same question talks about relationship. You know he's engaging us, right? He?

Shannon: 21:54

wants it to be interactive. That's right. I think it's interesting that there even is a question, right, I mean, it's obvious. Look at, what does this guy want? Well, of course he wants you to heal him, right, there is no more obvious response. But in both situations he asks James and John what do you want me to do for you, the blind man, what do you want me to do for you?

Shannon: 22:12

And I see this as a heart-probing question. You know, with James and John, what do they want? They want to be lifted up, they want power, they want position, they want to get ahead of the other disciples. And so he's kind of asking them like betray your heart here to me, and that is so part of this world system, to be lifted up in this way. Yeah, I think you and I talked about my book Comparison Girl on your podcast. Like, just, that is the world system, this desire, jealousy and selfish ambition and trying to get ahead of other people. That is the world that we are part of. And if we're asking Jesus to bless us in a way that the world celebrates he wants us to see, jesus doesn't lead us in an upward trajectory with our lives, like Jesus has just told his disciples, I'm headed for the cross.

Amber: 22:59

His response to them is amazing because he's like you don't know what you're asking for, yeah, and so, again, you don't see this harsh judgment as much as you just see the honest response of Jesus saying you're not able to drink this cup, yeah, because really you don't know.

Shannon: 23:17

Look, at verse 32, after Jesus says you know, you don't know what you're asking and you're going to be asked to leave stuff behind. Many who are first will be last and last will be first. But then in verse 32, it says they were on the road going up to Jerusalem and Jesus was walking ahead of them. So basically, jesus is like I'm headed to the cross, I'm walking out ahead of you and I'm asking you to follow me and we are not headed for an upward trajectory. You know, please follow me. You're actually James and John. You're headed for a cross.

Shannon: 23:47

James was the first one recorded to be murdered after Jesus. Yeah, can you imagine what a shock that sent out. Here they are starting this church and John was one of the last ones. He was the one who wrote the book of John in his 90s. He was probably the last disciple standing and had watched all of them be murdered and thinking back, I'm sure he had lots of time in exile on the island of Patmos to think back to the time. Jesus said yeah, you don't know what you're asking of me. Like the thrones in the kingdom have to do with suffering, it's the martyrs who will be lifted up in the kingdom of God, it's Jesus. Because of his great suffering, he has the greatest throne, the greatest position because of his great humility. So this is just a probing question from Jesus, like, basically, which kingdom are you living for here? What you're asking Jesus to do for you, is this according to the kingdom of the world or is this according to Jesus's kingdom? That leads to a cross?

Amber: 24:46

And down in verse 43, when he says but it shall not be so among you, but whoever would be great among you must be your servant. And this is where we really see, because it says you know, the first will become last and the last will become first. Yeah, this is where we first really see that upside down kingdom theology that we hear people talk about and what is amazing about. Well, there's a lot of things that are awesome. But James and John we know there was heart transformation, right Because of what you just mentioned about how they lived the rest of their life after Christ was crucified. And that is good news for us, for those of us who struggle with not having enough faith or I did respond pridefully, or I am selfish and I am confessing that to the Lord and I still struggle there is hope for that. We see it right here. They eventually realized we're giving our whole lives to serve the cause of Christ. Yeah, we know that sitting at His right hand is actually now service. Yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful thing.

Shannon: 26:16

Maybe you look back and how you would have answered that question. What do you want me to do for you when Jesus is in your life? When Jesus asked you that, maybe you would have answered it five years ago. I want to have wealth. I want to have a beautiful family that everyone admires. I want to have position at work. Would you give me this, jesus? Would you give me? Would you exalt me, would you lift me up among my peers, among my siblings? Would you make me the great one? Like maybe we can look back, but then, as we progress in following Jesus, what we ask of Him it should change. It's like would you bring your kingdom?

Shannon: 26:47

Would, you set people free? Would you lift up the beggars and the blind people? Would you?

Shannon: 26:52

cast off all the oppression of sin and how it's broken us. Would you do this Like? I just want to experience it. I just want to be one of the ones. I want to be part of the group, the crowd following you, Jesus, to experience this in community. It's not about me. It's not about me being lifted up in a particular way. It's about all of us in community. Someday we will. We are the ones who will enter through the gate into heaven and will rejoice together at that marriage supper of the Lamb. We can't wait, yes.

Amber: 27:21

And we can see glimpses of that now too. Like I think about your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and I think even our heart's changing more towards that. God, give me eyes to see the little pockets of your kingdom here on earth, because that is what keeps us looking forward. I'm not saying there's perfection here per se, but there's those moments when you're like that is God at work, y'all, that's the kingdom. Yeah, that's a glimpse, a tiny glimpse into what is to come when you see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Like you get to be a part of that now as we wait for the place where there's no sin and no sorrow, the complete fulfillment.

Shannon: 28:04

That's right. As Jesus came talking about the kingdom, he did not heal all the blind people, that's right. He didn't heal all the sick people, but he gave them glimpses of this is what's going to look like in the kingdom of God. Anything that's holding you back. You're not going to have that, and so this is a crowd of people watching a blind man go from blind to seeing. Mm.

Shannon: 28:21

And well, we're about to see that as we progress in the story. It's like he says I want to see and Jesus says to him go, your faith has saved you. Immediately he could see and began to follow Jesus on the road. Mm, that is so intriguing to me that the guy says I want to see, jesus says it's your faith and that just made you see but saved you. Mm. What does faith have to do with this, Amber?

Amber: 28:44

You kind of alluded to it before, but I'm always a little bit cautious when I talk about this because I know in our world today sometimes we can think like, oh, I didn't have enough faith, so that must be why I didn't get the answer. But God is not a God of formulas. It's not like okay, shannon prayed eight times today. Check, I'm going to give her what she wants, right? Amber praised me and confessed in just the right way, so I'll answer her prayer today Like no, that's not the God we serve.

Amber: 29:10

We serve a God whose ultimate purpose and desire is for us to know him, and we don't really know how he is going to accomplish that.

Amber: 29:18

Yeah, and so I think in this situation, when you see saying your faith, or you're being sure of what you hope for which is what we see in Hebrews 11, and certain of what you do not see, that's faith, this man, he is showing all of this crowd who wanted the man to be quiet. No, look at the assurance he had that I could do it. Look at the hope he had. He was willing to be persistent and look like a fool and run to me and ask for it, and I want you to see that it's that kind of persistence and belief that I can. That will set you free, because it's easy to think like, oh, it's just about the healing of blindness, but it's that next verse where he says he followed him on the way. Artemias didn't just receive healing and then be done. The ultimate desire of faith is for God to forgive us and cleanse us and for us to spend the rest of our lives following him because his way is better.

Shannon: 30:22

Yeah, you know, really, it's basically Jesus is saying what do you want me to do for you? But he's also asking, like, what are you gonna do with this if you get it? Yes, james and John, what are they gonna do if Jesus answers favorably? Oh, we're gonna sit on those thrones, we're gonna be admired, we're gonna be lifted up Like, yeah, we're gonna be living the good life. Artemias, what are you gonna do if you get your sight back? What are you gonna do? I'm gonna follow you. I'm the guy who I can't follow you. I have to sit here because I'm blind and I'm a beggar. I don't have the means to come follow you. You know, I can't just go anywhere. I don't have that freedom. So once he has that freedom, I'll follow you anywhere. How will we respond if we get what we're asking for?

Shannon: 31:04

I think part of faith is being able to see Bartimaeus' faith set him apart from the rest of the people. There's this passage in John 9 where Jesus heals another blind guy and after where Jesus says I've come, that the blind could see, the lame would walk, yeah, but also that the seeing people would become blind. You know, he kind of does this paradox thing where the blind guy. He could see who Jesus was. But the religious leaders, they were like this guy's from the devil. They couldn't see. And so Jesus said he's come to separate the two.

Shannon: 31:36

And so part of faith, I think, is seeing who Jesus is. But there's a part of faith too. That's saying I don't know what's up ahead. It's like I can't see. But all I know is you're gonna be the one that I wanna follow, regardless of where this all leads. There's a blindness to our faith. That's saying, no, I don't have it all figured out, I don't really understand, but all I know is you are the one I'm gonna pin my hopes on. Do you see that as part of faith too, amber?

Amber: 32:04

Yeah, because I think we have to wrestle with this idea that we feel like we do have great faith and God doesn't always say yes, yeah. And so you do have to wrestle with what's the impact, what's the meaning behind that. Does something need to change in me? But we see that Job had great faith and God didn't answer in that way.

Amber: 32:24

Yeah, with Bartimaeus. He had great faith and we can all have great faith. But we also know that there are times when Jesus is saying what do you want? And maybe it's that you want more faith. Yeah, yeah.

Amber: 32:37

So it's that being willing to see what your weakness is and then asking God for more of that, and that's more of a humble heart. Yeah, that's a heart of pride, and so I've learned to kind of always take that question of what do I want from Jesus. Okay, I wanna believe that you can heal this relationship between my mother and I, but today I feel like that will never happen, and so, god, I am asking you to give me hope that that is possible. Yeah, I'm asking you to increase my faith that not only I know you can do it, but that you're willing to do it and that you're actually working in it right now.

Shannon: 33:18

Yeah, something about what you just said reminded me of a time when my son, cade, was about four or five maybe, and he met this little girl at church who she had a malformed hand. It was smaller and not as useful to her. And so Cade said to the mother, he showed her his hand and he goes my hand used to be like her hand and now look and I don't know if he was thinking like that looked like a baby hand, you know, like my hand and I have grown up and now I have a hand.

Shannon: 33:49

Oh. He's trying to give this mother hope. And we just were all like, oh my gosh you know. So there's part of that.

Shannon: 33:54

That's like it's the foolishness of a child, but also like the blindness to anything that's possible you know, Like there's just this faith of a child, but also, I think, there's this willingness to look at that little hand or those blind eyes or whatever it is, and say you know, this might be my cross to bear right In this life. You know Jennifer Rothschild. She may never see in this life, but if I have you, Jesus, regardless of this cross that I bear, like you suffered too, If I have you, the rest of Jesus's story does not end with that cross.

Shannon: 34:29

You know, there's so much more to the story he raised from the dead, and our faith isn't just pinned on, like you know. Help me struggle through the rest of this life.

Shannon: 34:38

It's not I'm gonna follow you into the next life. You are the son of David, you are the Messiah, you will someday sit on this throne. And the disciples and Bartimaeus. It wasn't as clear for them as it is for us, because we have more of the story For us today too. We're blind to what that is gonna look like in heaven. We can't see into heaven right now, so it's partly seeing and it's partly not seeing, but it's all about faith, all right. So if we are going to live like this story is true Amber, this story of a blind guy making a fool of himself and Jesus calling him over and saying what do you want from me? And him saying I just want to see. Jesus touches his eyes and he springs up and sees and follows Jesus. So how can we live like this?

Amber: 35:22

true story is true. Well, I feel like there's a lot of ways, but the first one I would say is, again, our persistence in coming to the Lord right, and it can get discouraging at times when you're praying and you're praying and you're begging and you don't feel like there's change. But I think that's where it comes in when I was talking about earlier, where then, when you are struggling, it's even reorienting how you're connecting with the Lord and saying my faith is weak today and you know what Jesus already knows that If we really believe, God knows the thoughts and attitudes of our heart. That doesn't have to terrify us. That can really bring us great joy in saying I can be honest and I can ask for even what I'm lacking, and remember that he is working all things together for good, for those who love him.

Shannon: 36:13

It's such a beautiful promise, right. For those of us who love him. It is such hope in that verse. All things are working together for good for those who love him, and I think too, if we want to live like this story is true. It's like we're going to follow Jesus toward a cross with our eyes wide open, not like James and John Disillusion that this life of following Jesus is going to be filled with greatness and being lifted up.

Shannon: 36:38

No, we're descending to the cross, we're following him on a path that's going to lead to suffering and loss, and because we're part of this world where everything's broken. If the whole world is shattered, to think we're not going to step on glass and be hurt and cut from the brokenness of this world, that's just disillusionment. So we need to follow him with eyes wide open, right, yes.

Amber: 37:02

And that's like remembering that, james and John not being disillusioned in the way they were, and then also remembering that's where the whole arc of Scripture is so wonderful, because, like we were talking about earlier, if you do these things, there's still room to confess and your place at the table is not taken. James and John have an incredible legacy for the gospel, even though what they wanted originally was positioned in power. Yeah, exactly yeah. It's so encouraging, it's a process.

Shannon: 37:31

Yeah, and so, whoever you are right now in the story, if you find yourself like honestly in my heart I've got the James and John prayer like I just want to be lifted up, I want to be great, I want to be admired, you know. Okay, you can be honest with Jesus about that. Yes.

Shannon: 37:44

Or if you are the blind guy, you're like you know the whole world has put me down. I am marginalized, I am put back. Like people are annoyed with me and you just want Jesus to have a place for you. Like you can be honest with him about that too and he will receive you wherever you are. He'll have a conversation with you about that. That's right Now. He will press you to look at your heart. Yeah.

Shannon: 38:04

And he will invite you to follow him right. Yep, how about any false narratives that this story corrects, Like the things that you know? They're just kind of part of our world and it's easy to believe, but if we look at this story, the true story comes into greater focus.

Amber: 38:17

One that stands out to me and it's interesting because it's a little bit flip-flop from what we've said, but I think it's true is that idea that God helps those who help themselves. Yeah.

Amber: 38:28

And what I mean by that is, yes, this guy did have faith and he ran to them, but it wasn't because he didn't say again oh, Bartimaeus prayed all the right prayers, yeah, bartimaeus did all the right things. Like God is willing to receive us and then he's going to ask you to change your life. He's going to help you because the Holy Spirit comes and dwells inside of you and that is a lifelong process. But this idea that God only talks to or looks up on favorably people who have it all together, it's just yeah, that's not true. No, so that's one of them. I'm sure you have more. Yeah.

Shannon: 39:06

Well, I think a false narrative would be just following. Jesus should be pain-free and filled with glory. Yeah.

Shannon: 39:11

There are preachers who preach that way If you follow Jesus, you should have more money, you shouldn't be sick, you shouldn't have any hardship, there should be no divorce, all your relationships should be perfect, your kids should turn out right. No, the path of following Jesus, it is filled with pain and suffering. There are many crosses that we will have to bear, things that in our own power we would eliminate all of these hard things from our lives. But as back to that verse you mentioned, he uses all of these things in a way that seems so complex and tangled up. We're so blind to how this could ever be good. And yet in our faith, the true story is Bartimaeus was a blind guy who had lived his whole life begging. He got lifted up. He got the story to tell. The whole community got to experience with him transformation. I think following Jesus, our assumption should not be that it is pain-free. Also, just again, the false narrative of the world that I have to move up and move forward to be great.

Amber: 40:13

Yes, that position and power, fame, however you want to say, it is what presents you as favorable before the Lord. It's the exact opposite. It's not that he won't accept both and but his grace is available for all. And that is just so true in a way that we just can't even fathom, because sometimes we feel like grace then means that life's going to get easy. But no, it's this fellowship with the Lord that's free, this forgiveness in the Lord that's free, this ability to say I don't have to be afraid of what's to come, because my life doesn't reside here, that's so freeing, right, that's grace, not?

Amber: 40:56

oh, because now I belong to Jesus, I'm going to get that pay raise and I'm going to get all those things and that can be something that really drags us down when it doesn't happen.

Shannon: 41:04

But that was never promised, Bartimaeus was a marginalized beggar and he got to be one of the great ones in the kingdom who had a story to tell that not a lot of people could tell. Like James and John, we don't know that they were healed of anything right Bartimaeus, he got to be freed. So what a beautiful story about persistence, about faith, about Jesus seeking out what's in our heart and inviting us to follow him. I'm glad I get to follow him with you, Amber, Me too. Thanks for this great conversation. Thank you, Shannon.