God, If you Love Me, Why is This Happening? {Vaneetha Risner}

Why, God? Why haven't you shown up for me? If you love me, God, how could you let this happen to me?

In today's episode, we're going to invite you to bring questions like these straight to Jesus. And I think you might be surprised by the answers to these questions, embedded in the story from John 11 that we're going to look at.

Guest: Vaneetha Risner

Bible Passage: The Story of Lazarus in John 11

Get your Freebie: The Live Like It's True Workbook

Mentioned Resources

• Desperate for Hope by Vaneetha Risner
• The Scars that Have Shaped Me by Vaneetha Risner
• Funeral Sorrow and the Best Plot Twist Everwith Mary Kassian
• The Return of the King, Lord of the Rings, Book 3 by J.R. Tolkien

Vaneetha is passionate about helping people find hope in their suffering. All her books: the Bible Study, Desperate For Hope, her memoir, Walking Through Fire, and the devotional, The Scars That Have Shaped Me, encourage readers to turn to Christ in their pain. 

Her story includes childhood bullying, losing an infant son, developing post-polio syndrome, and going through an unwanted divorce. Some of her greatest joys are being a wife to Joel and a mother to Katie and Kristi and you can find her embarrassing them in Raleigh, NC. Vaneetha writes regularly for Desiring God, and has been featured on Family LifeToday, Joni & Friends, and Christianity Today.

Connect with Vaneetha

Website: Vaneetha.com

Facebook: VaneethaRisner

Instagram: @vaneetharisner

Twitter: @vaneetharisner

Shaped by God's Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith 
     {buy now}

Comparison Girl for Teens
     {buy now}

Get our free "Pray God's Promises" prayer guide.

Go to Shannonpopkin.com/PROMISES/ for more information on my neww Bible study, Shaped by God’s Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith. 

Visit ResoundMedia.cc for the Live Leadership Podcast, along with other Gospel centered resources.

Transcript

Shannon: 1:36

Why, god? Why haven't you shown up for me? If you love me, god, how could you let this happen to me? In today's episode, we're going to invite you to bring questions like these straight to Jesus, and I think you might be surprised by the answers to these questions embedded in the story from John 11 that we're going to look at today, and I'm so excited today to have Vanita Reisner with me. Vanita says that some of her greatest joys in life are being wife to Joel and mom to Katie and Christy, and she says you can find her embarrassing them in Raleigh, north Carolina.

Shannon: 2:11

Vanita has been featured on Desiring God, family Life Today, Johnny and Friends and Christianity Today and in all of her books, including her latest Bible study, which we're going to mention. Desperate for Hope. Vanita helps people to find hope in their suffering. Her story includes bullying, loss of an infant, developing post polio syndrome and going through an unwanted divorce. Man, this woman has suffered and yet I think you're going to find so much hope and encouragement in what she shares today. Vanita Reisner, welcome to Live Like it's True. Thank you.

Vaneetha: 2:47

It's great to be here. Shannon, Thanks for having me.

Shannon: 2:50

It is such a joy to have you. I've read your book the Scars that have Shaped Me. Yes, I really loved that book. I quoted it in my book Comparison Girl. I talked about how you have us draw this map of the highs and the lows of our life and how God looks at it from upside down. The lows in our life are the times where we're sometimes closest to Him.

Vaneetha: 3:12

Yes, that's the times that we sense God's presence more than any other time.

Shannon: 3:16

Yes, and so you're talking a little bit about that in your new book, Desperate for Hope Questions. We Ask God in Suffering, Loss and Longing. Tell us a little bit about that book.

Vaneetha: 3:25

Well, that Bible study came out of my own struggles, when I went through suffering, of just having these questions of God. I think a lot of people feel like if you know the Lord, you don't ask questions. I actually think questions are what draws to God. You see that through the Psalms. When people are struggling, they ask God why have you forsaken me? Why have you turned your back on me? I feel like when we are honest with God, God really responds to us because it draws us near to Him. So that was the sort of idea behind the Bible study. Is these questions like if God loves me, why did this happen? Or what if the worst happens? Or what if this never gets better?

Vaneetha: 4:04

And looking at six women in the Bible who asked something similar and didn't ask exactly that question, but sort of the arc of their lives is asking something like that and how God responded to them and what we learn from their lives and what we can take for our own lives and just writing laments. And there's some practical exercises of how do we process grief as well as how do we walk with people who are suffering and how do we prepare. What mindset do we need to have, Because there's a lot of people that aren't suffering now, but we all have everyday things that are hard. We don't have these grand things always, but we have hard things and it's a lens through which we can view suffering and see God in it so good, man, it makes me want to do the whole thing.

Shannon: 4:46

I read the first chapter and just really enjoyed your style and how you just helped us engage the scriptures, so I'd love for our listeners to pick up, desperate for Hope. It's a brand new Bible study with Lifeway, and so we're going to talk about one of these stories, one of these women who was asking questions, actually two women in our story today who were asking questions of Jesus and they were experiencing great loss. So it's the story of Lazarus. We did one other episode with Mary Cassian on this story, but, man, it is such a rich story I feel like we just prayed together before we started.

Shannon: 5:21

I said to the Lord I think we could do four episodes. I think we could keep talking about this story at such a deep well. So we're going to focus on parts of the story that we didn't cover last time, but I'd love for you to go listen to that other episode too. It was fabulous. I learned so much from Mary and I'm sure I'm going to learn so much from you today, vanita. But let's start out and just read, maybe verses one through six of the story of Lazarus. Oh, and we are in John chapter 11 reading from the ESV translation right yes.

Vaneetha: 5:49

Okay, now a certain man was ill, lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary, and her sister, martha. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair. His brother, lazarus, was ill. So the sisters sent to him saying Lord, he whom you love is ill. But when Jesus heard it, he said this illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it. Now, jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus, so when he heard that Lazarus was ill he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.

Shannon: 6:25

Okay, that's kind of interesting, right yeah.

Vaneetha: 6:28

Well, verse six begins with so, and I remember reading that and thinking something is wrong with this translation. That doesn't make sense.

Shannon: 6:37

It says so when he heard Right, he stayed, he stayed, yeah, so it doesn't make sense.

Vaneetha: 6:43

Yeah, he just finished saying that he loved this family. It says it twice the one whom you love is ill. And then it says Jesus loved them. So we know Jesus loved this family and this is the only family in the Bible that we see Jesus interacting with as a family. So he really loved them, was in their home. We see that other places. So he loved them and he finds out Lazarus is sick and he doesn't go. He stays because he loves them.

Shannon: 7:08

Yeah, so the word so it's a connecting word, it's stating purpose, it's connecting here's something and so there's a purpose connecting the two and you're like that just doesn't add up. Why would Jesus wait if he loved them? These are his I would say his best friends. Like you said, he stayed in their home. They probably hosted him. I mean, think of those friends that. I don't know if you have this in your life, vanita, but I've got these friends who live a couple hours away. They have this beautiful house on a lake and we love to just go there and hang out with them. Darryl and Reneal, if you're listening, we love you, you know, we just we love to go there and relax their believers, we just fellowship with them. And if they called me and said we're in a desperate situation, we need you to come, I can't imagine saying, well, okay, I'll stay here a couple of days longer. That's interesting and I think we're going to unpack that further. But what's the reason that Jesus gives?

Vaneetha: 8:05

Well, Jesus said before he stayed. He said this illness does not lead to death, it is for the glory of God. And then he tells the disciples after, basically, Lazarus has died. He says Lazarus has died. This is verse 14. And, for your sake, I'm glad that I was not there so that you may believe, but let us go to him.

Shannon: 8:24

Okay, yeah. So at this beginning part of the story, Jesus is kind of interacting with his disciples. There's a messenger who comes who says Lazarus is sick. And that's when it says so he waited. And then, you know, he's kind of interacting with his disciples. They go back and forth. He says he's asleep. They're like, oh, let him sleep. He's like no, I mean, he's dead. And this is where, like you just said, I'm glad for your sake, for the disciples sake, that I wasn't there, Because what would have happened if Jesus was there? He would have healed his friend. They all know that. But he's waiting, he's delaying so that they can believe. What do you think he's getting at? What is it that they don't yet believe?

Vaneetha: 9:02

Yeah, it's interesting I mean it makes you wonder what is it that they're missing, that he feels like he has to go to this huge link because he healed everybody. You don't see him not healing anybody, up until Lazarus which is what was so shocking All these people that really would be considered enemies of the Jews sometimes you know, or Canaanites.

Vaneetha: 9:22

He's healing them all and he doesn't heal Lazarus, for a reason, for both Mary, martha and Lazarus and for the disciples. So I think it kind of puts us on the edge of our seat, like, okay, this is making even less sense, like how is this going to help us believe? And I think as the story unfolds, we see why it helps us believe. But I think that's the crucial question, shannon, is why would this help us believe when Jesus doesn't go, when Jesus lets his friend die, lets these sisters? When I think about them, I think you know they're probably saying to Lazarus hang on, hang on your best friend, he's coming, don't worry.

Vaneetha: 10:00

And kind of watching on tiptoe at the window like Jesus must be coming. Of course he's coming. He comes for everybody.

Shannon: 10:07

Right, we sent word. Yeah, he should be here any minute, right, hold on, lazarus, hold on and then watching him take his last breath, it's like how can Jesus do that?

Vaneetha: 10:17

And I think all of us can relate to that, when we wait for Jesus to come, yeah, and we think he's going to rescue us and we're watching and he doesn't.

Shannon: 10:25

Yeah, the title of your chapter is If God Loves Me, how could he let this happen? I think that's one of the false narratives that the world holds up as like. Here's a reason I can't believe Is if God really loved me, how could he allow me to lose my child, lose my brother? How could he allow me to endure this cancer, endure this divorce, whatever it is? If he loved me and I know you've walked through some of that sort of suffering is there a time that you've asked God, like why you know if you love me? How could you allow this Anything? I know you. You could probably answer that question with many stories. I've read a bit from you, but what would you say, vanita?

Vaneetha: 11:05

Yeah, I really could with several times. But the time that comes to mind is after my son died and Shannon I had begged God not to let him die Like he had had a heart problem but he was doing well. But this doctor took him off his medicine because he was doing so well and said, oh, he's out of the woods. What age was he? He was two months old, so he had a hypoplastic left heart, but he was doing super well. He'd had a surgery. And I have a friend who was a pediatric cardiologist and I called him after Paul was taken off his medicine and this friend was like that's very dangerous, he shouldn't have done that. But this was on a weekend when I talked to my friend and I thought you know, this will all wait till Monday. But in the middle of the night on Sunday night Paul screamed and my husband took him by ambulance to the hospital and I remember just being on my knees begging God like God, will you come? I love you, I've served you, I've taught Pimals steady. You know just all this bargaining, god, please come through for me. Some friends came and stayed with my older daughter and I went to the hospital and I just knew God was going to save him. Like I was so sure that this was going to be a great story about God saving my son. And we got there and at the hospital they said your son is dead, shannon.

Vaneetha: 12:21

I just felt so let down by God. But at first I kind of said the right stuff. I don't know, like when you teach Bible study in your church and everybody's watching you, you don't know what to say. So you say the right stuff and you do believe it. It wasn't that I didn't believe it, but I would say months later I felt so distant from God. I had said at Paul's funeral God never makes a mistake. And months later I wanted to say God makes a mistake and this was one of them and really pulled away from God, felt that God didn't love me anymore or didn't care. I didn't walk away, but I would say I leaned away, I didn't really want to talk to God.

Vaneetha: 12:57

And then one day in the car I was so desperate and I just called out to God and said God, help me, show me yourself. And the presence of God filled my car in a way that has never happened since. I felt like I was so happy. I started laughing, which sounds crazy. I had been sobbing and I just felt like God was there. God was right there in my car, right with me, saying I'm with you, I will never leave you, and it was this picture of God's glory that changed me and this cemented my belief.

Vaneetha: 13:33

Whenever I wonder wow God, where are you? I remember God drew near when I was so far away from him and that's not the only thing that my faith is based on is this one experience, but it was this moment where I sensed that, okay, god, you didn't rescue me, but you gave me something better. You gave me yourself and my whole life. I look back on that and say you gave me yourself. And I find that I get glimpses of that when I ask God, show me your goodness.

Vaneetha: 14:02

I've said that so many times to God in the midst of a really hard situation Just show me your goodness, which is kind of like Moses', show me your glory. Then you open your eyes and you look around. God is doing things for us all the time in answer to our prayers, but if we don't pray them and we don't look, we don't see it. And so that was a moment for me that showed me that belief is better than rescue, which is crazy to think, and in the midst of trial, we don't think belief is better than rescue. All we want is rescue, but when we see the glory of God, we realize there is something so much deeper, because this life will be over in an instant and what is really going to last for us, and that is our relationship with God.

Shannon: 14:49

That's so good as you're talking. I had a similar moment, and I was in a car too. It was one of the darkest nights of my life. I had to drive across to the other side of our state. Someone that I desperately loved was in deep trouble and I was just when you don't pray in a straight line. I was darting into the presence of God, begging him for mercy and asking him please save us. I was desperate for rescue, desperate for hope the name of your book and I won't go into the whole story but God met me with my radio. I would be praying something and there would be a song on the radio that was an answer to my prayer. And I mean, I'm not. I don't know how that worked out. I don't know if God picked the playlist before. I don't understand how that works, but I know I'm sure God was meeting a lot of people where they needed him, but I needed him that night.

Shannon: 15:40

The next day I looked back at the playlist and it was like an hour and a half worth of songs. And I look back, I remember when that song played. I remember when that song played. I remember when that song played and how that met me, where I was and there were seven songs that God gave me, and they weren't right in a row, but they were intermittent. And the last one I just have to tell you this one. It was it's Not Over Yet by King and Country, and I was like you. I mean, this was the dark night of the soul, but I was like, thank God, you are with me, like it's not over yet. I don't ever want this to be over. I want to feel your presence Like I have never felt before. You are with me, I sense it, you're with me. I'm just crying Like it's not over yet. And the ironic thing was is that song was playing and I was praying this. Our car moved out of range of the radio station and so the song was like fading or it was turning to snow, and I'm like, no, I don't want it to be over yet. So then I'm praying to God, I'm like I need more of you. I need, I don't ever want this to end. So I'm hitting the seat button on my radio station and looking for another Christian station, and I found one, and I knew it was a Christian station because someone was praying, they were wrapping a prayer and then they said okay, we're going to play another song it's not over yet by King and Country. I'm like no way. I mean I wanted to pull my car over and have a little dance party with the Lord.

Shannon: 16:54

I could not believe the way he met me in his presence and I know that's a weird story and I don't rely on my radio to hear from the Lord but it happened and so, like to his glory, like he showed me his glory there, he showed me himself his presence in an inexplainable way. And that's what you're talking about. You know, I would have never chosen what I was going through that night Never. It is not anything. And you would have never chosen this experience with losing your baby, your two month old baby. He was precious to you and Mary and Martha. They never would have chosen this either. They did not want to walk through this. This is not what they had ever anticipated or ever would have chosen for themselves.

Shannon: 17:34

But Jesus said verse 15, for your sake, for the disciples sake, I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe it's again, so that these words connect an intention with a result. You know it's the same. Jesus delayed, so and then he's saying I'm glad I wasn't there so that there's this result of belief. There's something that happens when we go through suffering, when Jesus doesn't show up. Oh man, that is a challenge. So Jesus arrives, he gets to Mary and Martha's house four days, it says, after Lazarus has been in the grave. He's delayed two days. Now it's four days. There's some travel time in there, but it tells us a couple different times it's been four days. So then first we have Martha who runs out to meet Jesus. Would you read that part, vanita? Let's do verse 17 through 25.

Vaneetha: 18:26

Now, when Jesus came, he found out that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days. Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off, and many of the Jews had come to Mary and Martha to console them concerning their brother. So when Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, but Mary remained seated in the house. Martha said to Jesus Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, god will give you. Jesus said to her your brother will rise again. Martha said to him I know that he will rise again in the resurrection. On the last day, jesus said to her I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die yet, shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

Shannon: 19:14

Okay, earlier we talked about these questions that Martha and Mary probably had internally or they were seeing them to each other. But now she actually runs out. I mean, she's a go-getter girl, this Martha. I'm like Martha, I would be running out to meet Jesus on the path. I think you said in your book you probably would be Mary holding back, like not wanting to initiate, and really she's posing a pointed question here at Jesus, isn't she? Yeah, if you would have been here, my brother would not have died. Like, do you hear a little confrontation?

Vaneetha: 19:44

Yeah, I mean, I think she's saying, in other words, you weren't here and my brother died. You know, if you had cared enough, I mean and it's kind of these words that we might think, but not dare to say to God, like if you had cared enough this wouldn't have happened. But I think a lot of us think that way. You know, I've thought that way so many times If you had actually cared, you wouldn't have let this.

Shannon: 20:05

And so there is this underlying thing that we hear in Martha's voice I think if you had been here, but you weren't, yeah, like almost an accusation, yes, and I mean I love that it's in our Bibles, because if maybe there's a listener right now who's identifying like, yeah, I have some questions for Jesus, you know, why didn't you show up for me? Why Do you agree we can bring those questions to Jesus?

Vaneetha: 20:29

Yes, I think God welcomes them. The more honest we can be with God and just pour out our hearts, I think, the closer we draw to God, whereas if we just kind of sit back and say the right stuff which is what I think we want to do, because some of us feel like we need to defend God somehow, which God doesn't need our defense. He needs our love and our trust. Yeah, god defends him.

Shannon: 20:51

I can just so identify. I mean, if I had been the one at the funeral of my two-month-old baby, I think I would have been trying to say the right things. I think I would have been grappling with what I okay. Here's what I believe. I'm going to say what I believe in. Yet the questions bubbling to the surface, and do you think there's a process too, with grief? I'm sure you talk about this in desperate for hope? Yeah, I mean.

Vaneetha: 21:55

I think grief for me really starts with lament and it's just being on us with God. And you know we are angry at different things and you know I'm not saying it's fine to be angry at God, but God understands that. I think when we see that, we can confess it, because there's nothing that we can't take to God, so we can take or I confess I'm angry, I'm mad that you let this happen, Like help me see, and so I think there's nothing that's surprising to God about our emotions. But when we try to stuff them down, that's the hard part and I feel like it's like relationship those of us who are married or have children or just friends. If you are mad and you just pull away and you think I can't say anything, nice, so I'm not going to say anything at all it just adds so much distance to the relationship, whereas when you're willing to say, ok, this is hard like, let me talk this through.

Vaneetha: 22:45

This is why I'm upset. Help me understand. Things get so different. And so I think God is welcoming our questions and we see, which we'll talk about in a minute. Both sisters say that you know they might have had a different tone, but they're both saying you know, if you'd been here, this wouldn't have happened. And we see that it really is through them going to Jesus that they get to see the glory of God, and I think that's what happens for us as we go to Jesus or we let Jesus come to us. We want that interaction.

Shannon: 23:14

Yes, I have had so many friends say to me in hard times I'm just not ready to talk to God about this yet I can't open my Bible. I'm trying to, like, invite them. No, this is what will help you. We have to make our own decision on that, though, and I love that Martha made this decision to go straight to him. She didn't withdraw. I've been a powder in relationships it doesn't help to not talk right, and I've been the one to withdraw and I'm not. I'm just not talking to you right now. Don't do that to Jesus. Like here's a warning. You're going to get what you need by running out going to him. And then I think his response to her is kind of amazing. She's like I know that if you ask, god is going to give you anything you want, and Jesus says to her your brother will rise again. Just like that. Your brother will rise again. What's interesting about her response to that, though, vanita?

Vaneetha: 24:02

Yeah, well, she thinks Jesus is talking about at the very end which makes sense. Like you know, she's thinking OK, he's going to rise again at the resurrection and so maybe I shouldn't worry, because one day he will. She doesn't really understand what he's about to do.

Shannon: 24:18

Yeah, she's talking more theoretically, Like this is a theological truth, we know that there will be a resurrection. She's like yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of yes, jesus just gave her this amazing your brother will rise. I mean, we know that rest of the story. He's going to raise him from the dead. And Martha kind of oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, and there's a difference between knowing and experiencing God's power. Right, yes, she's about to experience God's glory in her life.

Vaneetha: 24:48

I love that you brought out that Martha is continuing to look at this sort of theoretically Like yeah, I've learned all this stuff and I think we do that too. Like we get these answers but we can remove ourselves from them and they feel very impersonal, like yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I've talked to so many people and talked to them about like God is faithful, or just talking about things, and you can sort of see their eyes glazing over, like yeah, yeah, that's, I know all that stuff. Like give me something helpful, you know. And so I feel like that is Martha. Like she's not actually listening to the exact words Jesus is saying. She's just assuming I know what you're about to say, I know what you're saying, and I think we do that too, cause Jesus is saying something very significant I am the resurrection, you know just that whole passage. And she says I believe you are the Christ. Like she understands he's the Messiah, but what he's about to do and what that really means for them is something that she's not experienced, so she can't really understand, right.

Shannon: 25:53

And I see that in myself too.

Vaneetha: 25:55

I mean.

Shannon: 25:55

I know theoretically that I won't die. I know theoretically that I will live forever, and yet do I live like that's true that's the name of this podcast or am I scared to death, of death? Do I live in constant fear of death? Or do I grieve as those who have no hope when I do lose someone? Right, it's a good question for all of us.

Shannon: 26:16

Okay, so Jesus responds to Martha first and she says the correct answer. I believe it's amazing. She believes he's the Christ. Like she gets it? I don't even know if she understands how impactful her words actually are. Right, there are things that we say that we don't truly get how amazing they are. We will someday when we meet Jesus face to face. But then she goes back and she tells Mary the Lord is here, the teacher is here, he's calling for you, and so then Mary runs out to where Martha was and she has an interaction with Jesus and she asks him the same question Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. And it's interesting. Jesus' response to Mary's a little different yes. Would you read 33?

Vaneetha: 26:58

Yes, when Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in his spirit and greatly troubled and he said where have you laid him? They said to him Lord, come and see. Jesus wept. So the Jews said see how he loved him. But some of them said could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man also have kept this man from dying?

Shannon: 27:22

What's interesting or surprising about Jesus' response to Mary oh?

Vaneetha: 27:26

so many things. One I think it's neat that he responded to Martha with truth and he responds to Mary with tears, like he's crying. And the Greek word for deeply moved is I can't pronounce it, but it's a word that means sort of to snort with anger. It's not just deeply moved like I'm kind of sad, it's like I am lividly angry. And I think he's lividly angry at death and sees all that the curse of death has done. And he's also moved at the grief of his friends. Oh yeah, jesus knows he's about to raise Lazarus. He knows it's gonna happen in three minutes or I don't know how long it is, but very soon. And yet he cries.

Vaneetha: 28:06

And I love that passage because it shows Jesus cares, like for us. It's not that he's saying, look, there's purpose, I'm gonna rescue you one day. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna give you this experience, like I gave Shannon beneath that, like it's all gonna be fine. Jesus sits with them and weeps, and so he's not this far off, like, hey, there's a purpose to be happy, it is. This is hard and I hate this for you, like I am snorting with anger. I hate that you are so troubled that this has happened. And that's the beautiful part about this is it's not just okay, you're gonna see my glory, so this is gonna be wonderful, but I am sitting with you and I am crying with you and I am drawing near to you because this is so hard. I think that's such a beautiful part of this passage.

Shannon: 28:53

Oh, I completely, 100% agree. This isn't just theoretical, he's in it with them. He's like you said and I heard Brad Gray preach a sermon on this passage and again it talked about how it's like a snorting the word that he was deeply moved. It's more than just sadness, it's an anger we don't really have an English word for it and he demonstrated it like that snorting, like this. I'm so angry, I'm like an animal would do and oh, I mean. That just moves me to know. That's how, jesus, I hate this for you. You are my dear friend and I hate this for you. I hate that you have to go through the consequence. I never designed this for you when I created the world.

Shannon: 29:36

Death was not part of it. And he is face to face with the effects of the fall and he hates it for us. And he is the resurrection and the life. He is the one who can respond to it. He's the only one who can do something about it. Yeah, I agree, I love that he enters in and he feels the emotion and I love, like you said, he gave him Mary truth. He gave Martha tears.

Shannon: 30:00

It says that Jesus wept it's like the word is like he burst into tears Like they're just overflowing from his soul Again. He knows, like you just said, he knows he's gonna raise Lazarus in. Yet, like he knows that about your baby, he knows that he's gonna raise this baby from the dead. And he knows that the thing that I was going through when I was in that car that day I mean I'm living the other side of that story it's a sunny day. God has healed so many things. There was nothing to worry about, there was nothing to fear in that car, and yet Jesus was with me and I think that if he loves me that false narrative if he loves me, he won't allow me to go through that. Well, like I wonder I think I posed this question in the episode with Mary Cassie and like, if Mary and Martha and Lazarus could choose to just take this story out of their story, never experience it, I wonder if they would, what do?

Vaneetha: 31:18

you think? I think they would absolutely not, because they got to see the glory of God. And it's interesting that question, shannon, because we ask you know, if God loves me, how could he let this happen? Like, why did this happen? God can't love me, but I think we are firmly grounded in God's love, which we see Mary, martha and Lazarus were. I mean, it's twice in five verses that Jesus loved them.

Vaneetha: 31:40

We would change that statement to instead of if God loves me, because God loves me, because God loves me, why did this happen? And that changes everything. It's so good. God has a purpose in this. It turns that question on its head when you know, satan is the deceiver and he wants to start with if what God said is true is true that's what he said to Jesus in his temptations is if you are the Son of God. Satan wants us to start our questions with if God loves me, and Jesus wants us to say because God loves me, why did this happen? And then we're looking for God, we're looking for purpose, we are looking for evidences of God's glory in our story and I think that changes our experience of suffering in the middle of it.

Shannon: 32:23

Oh good, I love that I'm going to hold on to that because he loves me, because there's another if-then statement coming up in our next section which I think is interesting verse 38,. Then Jesus deeply moved, again, came to the tomb as a cave and a stone lay against it. Jesus said take away the stone. Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead for four days. Jesus said to her did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God? So they took away the stone and Jesus lifted up his eyes and said Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around that they may believe. There's that belief again that you sent me. And when he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice Lazarus, come out. And the dead man came out. So what's interesting here, or surprising about the way Jesus performs this miracle, vanita?

Vaneetha: 33:23

Well, it's surprising one that he just says the words and Lazarus comes out.

Vaneetha: 33:29

It's just with his words right the power of his words yes, and I mean I just love the way, first of all, that he thanks God that he has heard him that was for everybody there and that he performs this miracle so that people would believe that God had sent him Now.

Vaneetha: 33:46

He had done tons of miracles before that, but this was the miracle that really changed, I think, the course of his ministry, because after that it says that so many believed and then other people wanted to kill him. So it was this pivotal thing that you either are going to believe that this is God or you're going to run because it's frightening, or you don't want to believe it. And so it is this pivotal thing that Jesus does, and you see God's glory in this. You see God's glory in lots of miracles. I mean, we see that, starting in John 2. The disciples saw God's glory as he did miracles, but this is the one where he is healing his friend and raising him from the dead and really changing the whole narrative that they saw in terms of Jesus is the resurrection. There is a resurrection from the dead.

Shannon: 34:35

Yeah, this is the event that sets the dominoes falling toward the cross. This is the pivotal moment. And you know, what's different about this story too, is those four days, because there was a delay when Jesus was healing the little girl who was 12 and was sick. But there weren't four days, and so the Jews had a habit of waiting three days. They would go out to the grave site and call the name of the person, because I read this somewhere that twice they had buried someone alive, and so they had this habit. They would go three days and call their name and on the fourth day they were dead, dead. You know, like we knew without a shadow of a doubt, they're dead, and so that's twice.

Shannon: 35:16

I think in this story it says he had been dead for days. So he is dead, dead. There's no arguing that he was not dead, and now he is himself arguing that he is alive. Right, so he's going to testify Lazarus as a grown man. I think the other difference is that these are Jesus's friends and man. If Jesus had not waited those extra days, we wouldn't have the story, and that would change perhaps something, even for you and me today, right Without this story. It just so cements the truth that Jesus has the power, with his words, to raise you, and me too, from the dead and our loved ones from the dead.

Vaneetha: 35:55

Do you agree? Yes, it definitely shows us that Jesus is the resurrection and the life. And you know, lazarus dies again, like all these people are dead.

Vaneetha: 36:05

And so it wasn't necessarily just that he, you know, he was relieving his pain. He shows he has power over death and so because he raised Lazarus, he can raise all of us, because I think some people may be listening like, well, they didn't have the horrible suffering in that they watched Lazarus die, but then he came to life and my, the person I love, didn't get raised from the dead. I think most people listening have not experienced that. And so just understanding, though, that somebody had to watch the other siblings die again.

Vaneetha: 36:36

And yet this shows that nobody in Christ will ever die, that we will live forever. And so that's the beauty of this, because we do watch loved ones die and really hard things happen and they don't get reversed the way this did. But the message of this story is that belief in the resurrection is where our hope is. It's not just that our hard things are going to come untrue in this life, but at the end of Lord of the Rings, where he says to Gandalf is everything sad going to come untrue? Yeah, and this is a little picture of it, but it really isn't the full picture, because when we get to heaven, that is where everything sad will come untrue.

Shannon: 37:15

And Jesus is inviting us to believe that yes, and to live like it's true, Like believe. It's in so many different places in this story. Jesus told the disciples I'm glad that I was not there so that you may believe. And then he says to Martha I'm the resurrection of the life. Whoever believes in me, though he died yet, he shall live, and everyone who lives, believes in me shall never die. And then he asks her do you believe this? She says I believe this. And then again he says to this crowd, as he's raising Lazarus, did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God? Believe? This whole story happened. He waited these extra days. He raised Lazarus so that we could believe, and so we could see the glory of God.

Vaneetha: 38:00

Yeah, I feel like that's. The crux of the story in a lot of ways is that God doesn't always rescue us like he didn't rescue Mary Martha and.

Vaneetha: 38:08

Lazarus because he wants us to believe and to see his glory. He said over and over again through these this story is that's a greater gift, Like rescue. He could have shown up, healed Lazarus, and they wouldn't have understood what I am. The resurrection means they wouldn't have seen the glory of God the same way.

Vaneetha: 38:26

So when we are not rescued but we are shown God's glory, that is really the greatest gift that God can give us, because it cements our faith, just like it has done for both of us when we were in the car, through music or just through God's presence. It changes us and God knows that's. What we need more than anything is to know that he is near and that helps us for the next thing. Life is a series of hard things. In our lives there's disappointments, and that is what strengthens us for the next thing, rather than rescue almost sometimes makes us just expect okay, we're not going to go through hard things and God is like you are going to go through hard things, but I will never leave you and you will know my glory and my presence through them.

Shannon: 39:09

Yeah, vanita, you've gone through so many hard things. You've got a list girl, you've lost your child, you've gone through different physical losses, chronic illness and you've lost a marriage. You've had so many losses. So I just have to ask you like, when you say these things, you know that it's better that God not rescue us so that we can see his glory? Are you just saying that stuff or are you just saying the right thing, or do you actually believe it, like, as you face the next thing, is it making a difference?

Vaneetha: 39:40

Experiencing God and my suffering has grounded my faith in ways that not suffering never did, like I had a bunch of years where life was actually pretty perfect, and it's not that God wasn't real to me, but it wasn't the same. But when you call out to God from a place of desperation and he answers you, it changes you. And yeah, I sorry, I've post-polio syndrome. I will likely eventually be a quadriplegic, so my arms and my legs are much weaker than they used to be. I actually just recently found out I have a system I spine. I mean, this was just a few weeks ago, so suffering is a real part of my life.

Vaneetha: 40:17

I am divorced because my husband left me for someone else and I parented two adolescent children as a single parent, and I did remarry in 2015, which was amazing. But you know, there's a lot of loss in my story and my kids' stories and I wouldn't have written that story that way if somebody asked me to write it. But now that it's written, I wouldn't change it and I find that even in this physical pain that I'm dealing with, god draws near and I would rather know God in my pain than not know God and have everything perfect, because there is something so lasting about knowing God. It takes away the fear out of life in a different way, like when life was really great.

Vaneetha: 40:57

I remember thinking, ah, what am I going to do if something happens? Like there was this nagging fear. And when the bottoms falls out in your life and you realize God is faithful and he will never leave you, then you're not as afraid. That is a gift, and what we get to take to heaven is our relationship with God and our love for God, and I think our capacity for joy and for loving God is often carved out of our sorrow. The more I've suffered and struggled, the more I know God. It's not something I just say, it's something that is deeply meaningful to me. There was a time when I just said it because it sounded like the right thing to say, but over years of walking with God and suffering, I find God has not just been good, he's been better than I imagined.

Shannon: 41:43

To hear you say that is just so helpful, so life-giving. The false narrative again that we talked about earlier is if God loves me, he won't allow anything to hurt me. But looking back at your story, because he loved me, he allowed me to experience himself, to know him more deeply and to get rid of the fear. I mean, I admit I do have that fear of when will the other shoe drop. You know just that dread of what do I have to face next? And what did you say about? He carved it out of our sorrow.

Vaneetha: 42:16

Yeah, I feel like our capacity for joy and really our fullness in God is often carved out of our sorrow. I just think we have a deeper capacity. I think part of it is this idea of restoration. Shannon, I've been thinking a lot about the woman with the lost coin. Like there's so much joy when she finds the lost coin. And there's people with 10 coins that haven't lost one and certainly they have joy they haven't lost their coins. But you lose something and you get it back. So there's this restoration that God can pour into you with himself that gives you this joy that, never having lost it, you just it's not that you're unhappy, but there's a joy that you can't really explain when God fills your loss with him. That's so good.

Shannon: 43:00

So this story where two sisters lost their brother, Jesus, eventually came and raised him from the dead that we might believe. If we believe, we will see his glory. How can we live like this story is true?

Vaneetha: 43:14

I think we need to believe that this life isn't all there is.

Vaneetha: 43:19

We need to believe that there is a resurrection for our friends who know the Lord and for us, so we don't need to hang on to everything and assume that this life needs to be perfect. I think living like we know it's true is trusting that there is a purpose that we can't see when God does not rescue us, like he didn't rescue Mary, martha and Lazarus. There's a reason, and living like we know it's true is knowing that Jesus weeps with us, like he's snorting with anger at our pain, like he cares. He's sitting with us. It hurts him and yet he has allowed it because he knows there's something so much greater coming for us. And I think living like we know it's true is, then, not being in despair when things aren't the way we want them to be, but going to God, telling him how we feel, just like Mary and Martha both did, and letting God weep with us and trusting that he is the resurrection and, as we believe, we will see the glory of God, so good.

Shannon: 44:16

I want to hold on to so many of those things, but the biggest thing I think I'm taking away from this conversation is not, if he loved me, it's because he loves me, just turning that question around. That's living like it's true, with the working assumption that he loves me and he is showing me his glory through this, he will be with me and all things will be restored. Living like it's true is you just said like this isn't all there is. I don't have to make this life perfect, I don't have to control it all. There will be losses and I can live with that Because more is to come. What was that quote from the Lord of the Rings Is?

Vaneetha: 44:55

everything sad going to come out true, yeah.

Shannon: 44:57

Living like it's true is knowing all of the sad things. All of the sad things are going to come untrue in glory when Jesus raises all of us, all of us who are in Christ. I want to be careful that is not a universal Like if you don't know Christ, you need to. All of us who are in Christ will have everything fulfilled. All of the sad things will come untrue. He will raise all of us from the dead and we will live forever with him.

Vaneetha: 45:20

Amen.

Shannon: 45:21

Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. Wow, thank you for having me. This was wonderful.