Saying Yes to Mercy Opportunities is Risky but Good {Amy DiMarcangelo}

Refugees. Trafficking victims. Addicts. Adoption. Homeless. When faced with opportunities to show extravagant mercy, we think,

• But what if I go into debt? 
• This could be a trap. 
• If I bring her into my home, will we be safe? 
• What if there's corruption? 

Yet what sounds like the voice of wisdom, is actually the voice of fear.

I'm joined by Amy DiMarcangelo for a conversation about a man who wanted Jesus to give him a thin list of neighbors to love. But instead, Jesus invites the man—and us—into the story of "The Good Samaritan," where mercy is both risky and good.

Guest: Amy DiMarcangelo

Bible Passage: Luke 10:25-37 - The Parable of the Good Samaritan

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Mentioned Resources

• Go and Do Likewise: A Call to Follow Jesus in a Life of Mercy and Mission by Amy DiMarcangelo
• The Pour Over News Source
• Ministries of Mercy by Tim Keller

Resound Media: www.ResoundMedia.cc

Music: Cade Popkin

Amy DiMarcangelo

Amy DiMarcangelo is the author of Go and Do Likewise: A Call to Follow Jesus in a Life of Mercy and Mission and A Hunger for More: Finding Satisfaction in Jesus When the Good Life Doesn't Fill You. She is also a graduate student at Westminster Theological Seminary and lives in New Jersey with her husband and three children.

Connect with Amy:

Website: equippedformercy.com

Instagram: AmyDiMarcangelo

Shaped by God's Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith 
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Comparison Girl for Teens
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Get our free "Pray God's Promises" prayer guide.

Go to Shannonpopkin.com/PROMISES/ for more information on my neww Bible study, Shaped by God’s Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith. 

Visit ResoundMedia.cc for the Live Leadership Podcast, along with other Gospel centered resources.

Transcript

Shannon: 1:36

Amy DeMargangelo welcome to Live Like it's True.

Amy: 1:39

Thanks for having me here. It's great to talk with you.

Shannon: 1:42

Yes, I'm just so excited to have this conversation. You're going to be a really interesting guest for us to get to know. I've been following you for a while and the Gaswell Coalition, I think, mostly just have enjoyed your writing and your perspective. Let me just tell our guests a little bit about you. You live in New Jersey, mother of three, one adopted little girl and two sons. How long have you been married?

Amy: 2:03

We're coming up on 15 years and two days We'll celebrate our anniversary.

Shannon: 2:08

Well, happy anniversary. That's fantastic. And I have your brand new book here Go and Do Likewise, a Call to Follow Jesus in a Life of Mercy and Mission. And you've also written another book, a Hunger for More. Finding Satisfaction in Jesus when the Good Life Doesn't Fill you. I love that title too. And are you now a graduate of Westminster Theological Seminary?

Amy: 2:32

I will be graduating in May. Congratulations. Few terms left.

Shannon: 2:37

Oh fantastic, yeah, yeah. Ok, so Go and Do. Likewise is a quote from this story. We're going to look at the Good Samaritan, that's Jesus' closing response.

Amy: 2:49

right, yeah, it's definitely the sort of inspiration for the whole book.

Shannon: 2:53

OK, this story that Jesus told about the Good Samaritan. It's such an important story and I haven't gotten a chance to talk to anybody about that on this podcast. I love that, because you've really given a lot of thought to this. We're going to be talking about who's our neighbor. I used to be a second grade teacher and I would tell my kids on the first opening day of school. I would tell them to draw their neighborhood for me. There were little things that I could tell about them as they drew their neighborhood, but I feel like neighborhoods have changed, like I wonder how children would draw that now, because for one, I feel like I don't know my neighbors as well as I did when I was a little kid and other ways. The world has expanded and the neighborhood is much bigger. Do you have any thoughts on just who our neighbor is?

Amy: 3:38

It definitely is. Like you said, it's complicated. We live in such an isolated society now we're even just. Issues with loneliness are rising. People don't know their neighbors the way they used to, but at the same time, we are exposed to the world in a way that was impossible at other points in history, and so that makes exploring this question really important, because we want to have a big hearted definition of neighbor, like Jesus does, while at the same time knowing we are finite we can't care for every single person that we ever read about or hear about or learn about Because we are exposed to such a deep level of needs among our neighbors all around the world in a way that would have happened in the past.

Shannon: 4:25

Yeah, and I think what we're going to get into also is I don't know about you, amy, but I have a certain heart attitude towards I. There are certain people I really want to be neighborly to and there are others who are just not on my nice neighbor list. Right, and I'm talking more locally. You expanded it worldwide. We're probably going to go there.

Shannon: 4:44

But I was just talking to a friend who's neighbor like literal neighbor I'm telling the story that's not exactly accurate to protect anonymity, but to some extent her neighbor put up a fence because her children were playing outside the boundary lines of their property and it's just like in your face and we were talking about it and just the emotions that and I've had similar experiences with my neighbors it's like this infringement or this, when your neighbor is offended by you or you're offended by your neighbor, like either way, there can just be such intense emotions about who we would like to show kindness to and really who we wouldn't, and I feel like in this story Jesus is going to blow the doors off of that also.

Amy: 5:28

Yes, he is.

Shannon: 5:30

Yeah, he's going to. He's going to kind of mess with us. So, listener, buckle up, get ready. You know our goal is not to make you feel super warm and fuzzy and comfortable with this conversation. It might do the opposite, but it will be good it's. It's compelling. This is our Jesus that we're listening to and we want to follow him. We want to love him with our lives. All right, well, would you open our conversation? We're going to be in Luke, chapter 10. And I want to just read the beginning part of the story. First, verses 25 through 29. And you'll be reading in the ESV, right.

Amy: 6:02

Yep. And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said to him what is written in the law? How do you read it? And he answered you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and your neighbor as yourself. And he said to him you have answered correctly, do this and you will live. But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, and who is my neighbor?

Shannon: 6:34

So we're talking about a lawyer here, and lawyers in that day are different than our lawyers because they dealt with the law of God right.

Amy: 6:43

And you hear that in the lawyer's whole interaction. When Jesus says what is written in the law, how do you read it? The lawyer's answer is sound Like he knew his stuff, he had an answer, he knew his theology, he'd studied his Torah. So you see that that, like this lawyer knew the law, but we'll also see he missed the heart of the law. So when he goes, and who is my neighbor? In verse 29,? But he desiring to justify himself, so you can almost see his defenses immediately coming up where Jesus is telling him do this and you will live. And he's like well, who's my neighbor? And to him it's like well, let me make sure all my ducks are in a row, yeah, I'm caring for the other people in my synagogue or my family, and would have had a very narrow understanding of what his neighbor was. And that's why he's trying to justify himself.

Amy: 7:34

And I think that is something that we all can probably relate to is we feel uncomfortable when our sins and our shortcomings are exposed. So we wanna justify ourselves, we wanna show that, no, we are okay, we are doing the right thing, whatever we're doing is good enough. We don't want to be exposed. That's what we see in the lawyer. And I think what we need to be aware of for ourselves is in what ways are we trying to justify ourselves when we kind of go back to Jesus, well, who's my neighbor? So, with this context, if I'm asking, well, who's my neighbor? Because I want an out, to not have to worry about my neighbor, you might be hanging a pride flag next door.

Amy: 8:16

And for the neighbor who looks really different than me or believes very different things than me, I might naturally want to have my out. So it's like, well, they don't count. They don't count as my neighbor, they're not the person I should have to worry about, and we wanna isolate and be able to define it ourselves. And Jesus just throws that on its head.

Shannon: 8:38

Yeah, she does. Yeah, I mean, it's obvious. Well, two words that were given is that he's putting Jesus to a test. That was verse 25. And then he's also trying to justify himself. So he's not coming to Jesus with a sense of humility, like, truly, teach me, here I am broken, I am at the end of myself and I want eternal life. Right, so that is the appropriate way to come to Jesus. And he's coming to Jesus.

Shannon: 9:05

He doesn't really understand who Jesus is. Clearly you don't talk to Jesus this way. If you know who he is right, he just sees him as another rabbi, you know, like a teacher, and he's a lawyer. He knows the law and he's putting this guy through the ringer. He already thinks he is justified. But there's something Jesus obviously senses in this man. He's sensing that this is a test and the narrator here is telling us that this guy is trying to justify himself. Right, and so hearing Jesus' response, jesus says, yeah, you got it right, you got an A on the test, do this and you'll live. But there's something this lawyer doesn't like. I don't know, maybe it's the tone Jesus used yeah, do this and you'll live. It's like maybe I don't know too simplistic or something, and literally that is true. If we love God with all of our hearts and if we love our neighbors as we love ourselves, yes, we will have eternal life.

Amy: 10:03

Yeah, because that's only the fruit of God saving us Like we can't do that on our own.

Shannon: 10:07

That's my point is like if we could do that we could have eternal life. However, none of us can do that. Like, none of us have done that, nor could we ever. And do you feel like hearing his words back at him? The lawyer is sensing like squirming a little bit Like, oh yeah, I don't actually do that.

Amy: 10:26

Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's this sense of he knows there's a disconnect, whether he wants to admit it or not. So he's getting flustered Like, well, no, I do do that, but wait, who's my neighbor? And I think what you said is really important, that this isn't a humble coming to Jesus Like I want to follow you, I want to love my neighbor. How do I do that with my limited time and resources? It's he wants an out Once she is telling like you're okay as you are.

Amy: 10:54

And that's not what Jesus does. We need to go to Jesus because we're not okay as we are.

Shannon: 10:58

Hey, isn't that always what we want? We want Jesus to tell us how great we are. You know, pat is on the back, like Shannon, we need you here. You're just doing good work, like that. That's really when I come in prayer so haughty, right, so much pride I want to be, I want to feel good about all my contributions, and that is just not the appropriate way to approach Jesus, because we are so flawed. You know, if I just look down the street where I live and think about my neighbors and my interaction, I mean a lot of them. I don't even know them and so I'm falling short there. There are some that are super sweet and easy to love.

Amy: 11:33

I love my neighbors, but there have been other instances where like, oh, I'd be screaming a little bit too, like, okay, jesus, let's talk about who is my neighbor, and really wanting that list to be narrower, right, like you're saying because we want to be something we can do in our own strength, yeah, where it's like, well, this person, I have the ability to love this person without Jesus' help, because we get along naturally, or where, you just see, I think it can be easier for us to have compassion for a child in need than maybe someone, an adult struggling with addiction. So we want our neighbor to be the person that we don't need Jesus' help to love.

Amy: 12:11

That someone that is easy for us to do. All of our love is ultimately coming from God, but it's easier for us sometimes to love people. And then there's the people who it's like man. This is only going to be a miraculous work of God in my heart and be able to love them.

Shannon: 12:26

True, the lovable and the unlovable, and yet that's where we see the supernatural. So I think it's so interesting, amy, that Jesus responds to this guy trying to justify himself with a story. This podcast is really dedicated to the narrative texts in our Bibles, so we have this overarching storyline, but then there are these little pockets of stories throughout our texts where we're looking at a story where Jesus is interacting with a lawyer and Luke is telling it in a very intentional way. This isn't just a story out of no context, like he's giving us a context and in fact, the story wouldn't be as meaningful if we didn't have this lawyer-Jesus interaction. But then there are these Jesus stories and I find it so interesting that Jesus responds. It says in our next verse we're going to read Jesus replied oh, man was going down from Jerusalem. So he just jumps right into the story. That's how it's written. So why do you feel like stories are more impactful than facts, especially when we're talking about mercy?

Amy: 13:31

Yeah, when we're talking about people in need, and it's more, we're talking facts and statistics, it's easier to remove ourselves and come in with judgment, come in with apathy, because we're just talking numbers. And so I think, by telling stories, jesus is seeking to connect to our hearts and God is a storytelling God he's given us. We have the grand narrative of scripture, it being true. So it's not that it's this fictional story.

Amy: 14:05

No, there's just ways that we learn better through stories in a way that you give someone a list of facts and statistics aren't going to meet us the same way, and I think part of that is it can expose us where we're like oh, I'm kind of like that person.

Amy: 14:22

It takes our guard down. So Jesus just looked at the lawyer and was like man, you have no compassion. It probably would have been easy for the lawyer to be like oh no, jesus, you're wrong, I do this and I do this, I tied my mitt, I tied my dill and he could have gone through. But by the story, jesus kind of causes his defenses to go down so that the lawyer can actually be challenged by what he's hearing and even see himself in the story.

Shannon: 14:48

Yeah, there's this objectivity that when we're looking at facts or lists, we know that the world is hurting and dire need. We can list out the facts, but then it's almost like when we put ourselves inside the story. The walls come down and we experience it in a different way. And I think, too, stories. They package up rich theology In the brevity of a story. Books have been written, your book has been written basically with this as a springboard on the story of the Good Spernton. And so there's this economy of words where so much can be encapsulated in a story.

Shannon: 15:27

And I think God made us to be story receivers, story tellers. We can just package up and store up in our mind these stories so much easier. If I were to try and list out the 10 most important doctrines in the Bible, I'd probably get through. I don't know, maybe four or five. Hopefully I could eventually name them all. But if I were to rehearse all of the stories Jesus told and then use those stories to help me flesh out those doctrines, it's easier. I want us to approach this story that way. Let's be like this lawyer and let's let Jesus put us right in the middle of this story and look at it differently and open our hearts to mercy. So, amy, can you read verses 30 through 37?

Amy: 16:52

Sure Again. This is after the lawyer says. And who is my neighbor?

Amy: 16:56

And not in the way, in a challenging way. Jesus replied. A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and he fell among robbers who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now, by chance, a priest was going down the road and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

Amy: 17:22

But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was and when he saw him he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying take care of him and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back. Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers? He said the one who showed him mercy. And Jesus said to him you go and do likewise.

Shannon: 18:02

So Jesus can set up this story any way he wants to. What's the surprise in the way that he sets this up?

Amy: 18:10

The first surprise is that the Samaritan is the good guy To this lawyer. I mean, the hostility between Jews and Samaritans was intense. You even see, at the end, when Jesus asked who is this, who was the neighbor? And he said the one who showed him mercy. The guy couldn't even bring himself to say the Samaritan. It's so true. He's like why don't you go around this? Because I don't want to hit the Samaritan.

Shannon: 18:36

That's such a good point.

Amy: 18:37

It's a hero in this. So that was the first thing Jesus did, and I think one of the reasons he did that is because we naturally cast ourselves as the heroes.

Amy: 18:46

In any story that we read or movie, we watch or whatever we like to think we would be the person doing the heroic thing and the right thing and the just thing. And so Jesus kind of challenges that just at the get-go, like hey, bud, you're not the hero here, it's this unexpected man, the Samaritan, who you hate, your enemy. He's going to be the one who shows mercy, who shows that he is a neighbor. That's probably the most offensive surprise in that story and it's easy for us to just miss that, because to us it's Samaritans. They're just part of the characters in the Bible.

Shannon: 19:25

And it's like I don't know.

Amy: 19:26

This would have been shocking and offensive to the lawyer to hear.

Shannon: 19:30

Yeah, if they were going to draw their boundary line of their neighbors, it did not include the Samaritans. They were outsiders, they were their enemies. They did not ever want to identify themselves, even though they were half Jewish, the Samaritan people. But so Jesus tells his story with three characters. We've got a priest, a Levite and a Samaritan. So this lawyer would be similar to the priest and Levite, but not exactly. Am I right on that?

Amy: 19:59

Yeah, they're up there, religious guys.

Shannon: 20:02

Yes, and so, in a sense, what was surprising to me is Jesus is really asking the lawyer guy to identify with a guy bleeding on the road. That's who we're all being asked to identify with here, as we're the one who got beat up. We're not the really good person leaning down and binding up wounds and paying for hospital bills. We're the ones in need. So that was interesting. And so Jesus turns the situation on its head where the guy is saying let's keep this narrow, let's keep the boundary line narrow around who my neighbors are, so that I can feel good about myself. And by helping us to identify with the one on the road, the one who's been beat up, I think Jesus is saying don't you want the boundary line to be a little wider when you're the one in need?

Amy: 20:53

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Shannon: 20:54

So I found that, wow, that does change everything when I'm the one in need and as Americans, we don't often see ourselves as the needy one right? Is it harder for us?

Amy: 21:05

Yeah, I think anytime we live in a context where we have a measure of success, stability, it's hard to see our need. I mean that's why Jesus said easier for a camel to go through the eye of an eagle and for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, and that not being because Jesus can't save the rich person, but that it's about recognizing our need.

Shannon: 21:26

Yes.

Amy: 21:27

So much we see in the Bible. It's not that the poor and the vulnerable are more worthy Like we're all sinners who fall short of the glory of God. So being impoverished that's not what makes you righteous, but that when you're in that place, you see your need and so you're more positioned to receive mercy from God.

Amy: 21:46

And when we don't see our need, we can't accept the mercy that we need when we don't see ourselves as desperate, when we don't see ourselves as helpless, when we don't see ourselves as unable to save ourselves, then we can't turn to Jesus, the ultimate good Samaritan who we need to save us.

Shannon: 22:01

Absolutely. Yeah, if we look at the context. That's the problem with this lawyer. He wants Jesus to spit out a tidy list of the things that he needs to do to receive eternal life and he wants to go check, check, check. Yep, I've done it all. And Jesus says well, actually you have to do everything. Love God perfectly. Love your neighbor as yourself. And he's like, oh, that makes me squirm a little bit. Who's my neighbor? And Jesus' whole point is to show him you haven't met this law, you haven't done what's required. Like this story is put together in a way that this guy is confronted as the needy one who needs somebody else's mercy, and look how he's excluded by not including the Samaritan as his neighbor. Well, he's just excluded himself from receiving kindness in a time of need If he's the guy bleeding on the pavement. But Jesus kind of sets up the story Like what's surprising or interesting about the way that the story progresses?

Amy: 23:02

So the other things that can be easy for us to miss coming in from you know our western eyes, or just not knowing the area is when he talks about you know a man was going from Jerusalem to Jericho, so like that wasn't just I'm going to drive down the street to target, like that. This was like kind of a treacherous journey that Jesus is setting up for his story. And why that's important for us is it's easy to also read this and then be self-righteous towards the Levite and the priests who passed by Like I would never pass by. And Jesus is kind of setting the stage of like no, this was risky. Like this guy, he was mugged and robbed. Like so you could go over there and get mugged and robbed too.

Amy: 23:43

Yeah, so he's setting up this stage of this is a risky journey. And so this man who is now beaten and bloody on the side of the road is going to be a risk to go care for and there's no guarantee that that's going to work out for you. And so that's the next step. Is Jesus like is showing us like to love our neighbor? It's not just the easy things. It requires risk, it requires kind of putting ourselves on the line when we don't know how it's going to work out, and that that's the kind of love he calls us to again, even seeing that that all of this is because, if we have received the mercy of Jesus, this is now how we love others, so we were the people who Jesus had to die on the cross to save us.

Amy: 24:28

He saved us through his sacrifice, and so now the way that we are called to love others will involve risk, which was the first part that we see in there of him going over to man and then sacrifice like he brings the bloody man on to his own animal, he walks him to an end, he leaves money, he says whatever else you'll need. So there was uncertainty there. You didn't know what it would rack up to be financially, so that there's this also the sense of loving our neighbors going to be inconvenient. This guy would have been going somewhere, he wasn't just in the story, he's not just exploring and oh, now, a side project. Let me help this guy. For us to love our neighbors, we need to be willing to have our plans changed, to be inconvenienced, to make sacrifices, and that's what we see like this Samaritan is generous and sacrificial and taking risk and that that's the kind of love Jesus is calling us to the Samaritan would have known he was hated by the man he was helping, so he was helping an enemy.

Amy: 25:32

And that is where you know we want to draw the line is I will help a helpless child? You know we just have our parameters of who we're willing to help and usually not ever going to include our enemies.

Shannon: 25:43

Yes, it's so true. Let's take those separately. Let's talk about risk and then generosity. That was when I was reading your chapter on this story. That was interesting to me.

Shannon: 25:52

I had not thought about the fact that this guy was ambushed. You know, jesus set up the story, so the sky is ambushed, which means you could be ambushed, you. I was scrolling on Facebook recently and I saw this picture of these pieces of wood with nails sticking up out of them across two thirds of the road, and the question was what would you do if you came to this place in the road? And I immediately thought this is so dumb. You would just get out and move them out of the way. And that's what someone wrote in the comments. And they're like, yeah, and then you would be hauled off into the woods. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so naive. I am the one who, yes, I would fall for that every time.

Shannon: 26:30

But they, listening to this story, they understood this road, they understood this was an ambush, they understood that this was risky. You know, to go to this man who's bleeding and bruised. This was a risk and I mean, I'm happy to help and show mercy when I'm safe and like I'm clicking a button from my computer to send some funds but putting myself at risk. That's a kind of love that I haven't practiced that much. Amy, to be honest, you know I like to be safe and I do live in a really safe place, but so many people who need help are not safe.

Amy: 27:10

Yeah, it's a really hard one because it's natural, of course, we want to be safe, like, and that's not a bad desire.

Shannon: 27:45

No, no, no.

Amy: 27:47

And even the way we care for others. We can still show wisdom in how we do that, but that there does need to be this willingness of I will enter this risky situation whatever that may be, and we do need to see there's a temptation for us to conflate wisdom and fear where we're either we call being motivated by fear wisdom.

Amy: 28:11

I'm just being wise, being wise with my money and being wise with my time and really we're actually being directed through fear that we don't want to put our finances on the line like it's too, it's too risky to give when I have this going on, or going places where it's like, well, I would never go and live in that place, in that neighborhood. I would never go, minister, there. Do you know the crime rates there? You know where there's just going to be things that keep us from going into dark places where there needs to be the light of the gospel and that's going to look different for us, you know.

Amy: 28:45

It doesn't mean we have to go chasing after like here's the most dangerous setting I can go, but it does mean that, like we have an awareness of what are the needs that God has, you know that the Samaritan was walking and this man was in his path. What are what are needs that I am encountering that do require a level of risk to go care in that?

Shannon: 29:05

way.

Amy: 29:06

And that's going to be different based on our context, but I think of this is a more extreme example. But there's a couple in our church who they do a lot of work in Camden, which is a poor and dangerous city in New Jersey, and they work with people recovering from drug addiction or still trapped in drug addiction prostitution, either trying to get out or still in prostitution, where there's just a lot of darkness and you know you would think well, well, god's going to bless the head of that ministry like he's doing God's work, god's going to protect him. He was stabbed this year. It's not this guarantee that, like well, you step out in faith and you'll be safe because you're doing what God wants you to do. There isn't a guarantee of that. What we need to do is live like it's true that our lives are ultimately in God's hands and so we are going to follow him in obedience, knowing that that will cost us something.

Amy: 29:57

It'll cost us something, but that will cost us something. Jesus doesn't hide the cost of taking up our cross.

Shannon: 30:03

Yeah, I mean, I think it invites us to look at the overarching narrative here, which you really called us to in the opening chapter of go and do likewise. You're talking about this grand narrative where we're living in the point in history where Jesus has invoked the kingdom. Like it's, the kingdom is here at hand. Let's see. I have this in your book on page 19. Even though we're still in the in-between and the not yet realized kingdom, we know what's coming. God has already revealed the conclusion of his great redemptive story and to live in light of this conclusion, we need eternal perspective. But what does that actually entail? I think this is a helpful summary. Having an eternal perspective means we view our present world and its present troubles in light of the reality that Christ will return and usher in a kingdom that will last forever, like we will have eternal life right, and that means we can take risks and spend our lives in extravagant ways here in the here and now, for the sake of our neighbor, because this isn't all there is. Like with my, I always refer back to this, kristen whether or not and I talked about how it's not YOLO, it's not you only live once. You know you live twice and that changes everything for you.

Shannon: 31:18

So I had to kind of grapple a little bit with this. I mean, not to the extent of your friend who got stabbed, but I was invited to go speak in Columbia earlier this year. And probably not wise, but I watched this TV show about this woman being kidnapped in Columbia. Like, oh, this is not a good idea. I just was like I don't know, I was scrolling and I saw it and like oh, I'm going there and I just kind of was wanting to see the culture and stuff. But like I had different people say, are you sure you want to go to Columbia? And I was like you know what? There's always a risk. You know, wherever you go, whatever you do, there's always a risk. And I mean maybe the percentage could be a little higher. They assured me, you know, I definitely was safe, I had people traveling with me. I did not take risks like your friend who got stabbed probably, but there's always a risk. And so and I think you're exactly right that we can confuse what did you say, wisdom with fear.

Amy: 32:12

Like we say, we're walking with wisdom, but we're really walking motivated by fear, and that's why we don't go into those places.

Shannon: 32:20

Or do those things.

Amy: 32:22

It really keeps us, I think, sometimes from serving the Lord and loving our neighbor the way he's called us to, and I think that's a lot of like what the Levite and the the priest would have been, that there would have been fear, and like justifiable fear.

Shannon: 32:36

Yeah, and I remember a story though that you shared in your book.

Shannon: 32:38

That, I think, kind of leads us to generosity too, because this Samaritan I mean he's it says he went, he bound up his wounds, he poured oil and wine, he set these are a lot of verbs here, you know he set him on his own animal, he brought him to the end, he took care of him and the next day he took out to Denario two days wages he gave to the innkeeper and then he's like what other debts are incurred I will repay you when I come back.

Shannon: 33:05

So he is taking extravagant measures to take care of this man. One of those is financially right, and so the story that I loved was you talking about when you were supporting I don't know if it was a compassion international child or someone, but you're a college student. You're wanting to be wise, you know, with your finances which I have college students right now, and I do want them to be wise with their finances but so you stopped supporting your little child, calling it wise, calling it wisdom, even though you said you had a scholarship and you had a job, you were able to meet your needs, right, but you were looking at that differently. Now, looking back, how is that?

Amy: 33:44

Yeah, I definitely like look, you know, look back on that thing. I don't think I was motivated by selfishness Like I was. It wasn't like I was out there like yeah, I can't stop buying myself new clothes, so I'm gonna I'm gonna stop support here. Like I was as frugal as it gets. I would literally like if I did go out to a restaurant with friends, I'd be eating like the free bread at the table and find like the $2 side salad at the time. Like I would be like doing things as cheaply as possible. I would not drive places sometimes because I didn't have money for gas. So I was like being very, very frugal.

Amy: 34:17

So it wasn't that I was like trying to cling to my money out of selfishness, but I had so much fear about like I don't want to go into debt. I don't want to go into debt, I don't want to go into debt and I I missed that. Like God had really provided. Like I had a really good job and I had had a mom who drove me to a job for years, so that by the time I was starting college, I already had years of savings.

Amy: 34:39

Because I was so frugal, I had years of savings and it was just like I kind of missed, like God had been so generous to me I think I could have trusted him to keep giving and instead I stopped, like I waited until I made it through college, and then I then I went back and I started sponsoring again and I you know that's something I would want to do different now that that, even if it feels like there's reasonable reasons not to be generous, that I think real wisdom is trusting the Lord and trusting that it's better to give than to receive and just living faithfully, living like the widow with the two small coins all that she had. So it doesn't mean that giving generously means like you're writing big fat checks. Generosity is going to look different, based on the season of life you're in, whatever means God has entrusted to you, and I believe all of us can be generous, and I think I just missed out on really receiving just grace from seeing God's provision in my life, had I sought to keep living generously in that season.

Shannon: 35:37

There's always a risk in being generous and we so miss how God is providing and will provide in the future, like we feel like it's all on our shoulders. We're in a season where we've just got one more in college and so we've got more discretionary income or will by the end of this this one finishing college than we've ever had in our married life. And but even now I look at how we could talk ourselves out of being generous, extravagant generosity, because well now we have to say for retirement right and who even knows like how long we'll live. We can at any stage, and I think the less we have, like how you were as a college student, the more tempting it is to call that wisdom. You know, call fear wisdom, but what Jesus is putting on display here is like this is amazing generosity, amazing risk, amazing generosity displayed by the Samaritan, the bad guy in the story. So is there anything else that you think is, I don't know, interesting or that we need to talk about with this story?

Amy: 36:43

I think it's really important to see how Jesus is breaking down the barriers of who is my neighbor, and I know we already talked about this a little bit, but I think it's really easy for us to narrow what Jesus means by neighbor and to add our own stipulations and what's. On the one hand, what's important is this isn't a story about a Samaritan who goes out and rescues every hurting person in the world like that we are limited.

Amy: 37:10

we do have limited resources, we do have limited time, we have limited awareness, we have limited wisdom, but I think it is a call to care for any kind of neighbor. So it's not every person, any kind of neighbor that, like I am not allowed to draw lines and parameters around who I'm willing to care for. I need to be having my eyes open so that I can see bloody people. I don't want to be so you know, walking with my eyes in front of me, that I can't see the hurting people around me. So I need to have a heart that's aware of needs around me like that.

Amy: 37:45

it's not just US citizens Like well, I care for my people and on the one hand, it's a little overwhelming that we're aware of so many needs around the world and again we have to grapple with our finiteness. But well, I can care for victims of war, I can care for people who are enduring famine. I'm not hungry, I can care for where there is famine. And so I think, trying to be in places where we're aware of things going on around the world as well and having a heart that's just ready, like God, who is the neighbor you want me to care for, in a humble like who do you want me to care for? How can I steward my limited resources?

Amy: 38:20

With so much pain and brokenness in the world and knowing that I can't give to every good organization, where do you want me to give? And then, just seeking to be faithful? So the neighbors in actual proximity, the people in our community, in our neighborhoods, in our churches, that we're first looking just in our proximity, of the people near us, but that there's also an openness to the people, knowing that God has a heart for all nations. Like God, how can I live in such a way that reminds me you love all nations and one day, people of every tribe, tongue and culture are gonna be worshiping you. So how can I be giving to missions, work in unreached people, groups, giving, and so, yeah, I think it's just knowing, like it's just our human nature and grappling with, like our flesh and our selfishness that we're going to want to narrow, who Jesus means by neighbor, and I think this parable shows us that neighbor is anyone, not everyone, but any kind of person.

Shannon: 39:15

Yeah, I love how you took the question and just changed it a little bit. It's not like, well, who's my neighbor? It's like who's the neighbor I get to serve, like not limiting the list but coming with open hands and an open heart of who's the neighbor you're putting in front of me and I relate to that, amy, with that feeling of overwhelm. You know, we talked earlier about how the whole world is our neighborhood now and I for years just didn't pay much attention to world news because every time I tried I would just feel overwhelmed, I'd feel like man, this would take a lot for me to even get caught up in things. So, just a little way. But I've started.

Shannon: 39:52

I subscribed to the poor over and so it's a news source that from a, you know, a Christian perspective and it's just a baby steps for me, like just opening my heart. I remember you describing Cambodia and the history there and I just felt that that was so helpful I was. I found myself thinking like Amy, I need you in my life to just give me that overview of what's happened in the world and grow my heart for compassion. But there are things that I can do to prepare myself, you know, to be a compassionate neighbor, right Of just being even aware, rather than having my nose in a book and you know, just kind of living in a fantasy land and unaware. But what about those neighbors that maybe they don't seem deserving to us because of our prejudices or other reasons?

Amy: 40:39

Yeah, that definitely is another issue we have to deal with where we can have this idea of like, well, the deserving, poor versus the undeserving, and there's a few components to that. So one is just the humility and I know, like, what do I have that I haven't received, like I have received so much. That has made it much easier for me to be a hard worker and to you know, to get an education, like I was responsible to work hard in school, to work hard at my job. There is responsibility, but I was also given opportunities that other people could not dream of. And so, just having the humility of like man, everything I have is ultimately from God.

Amy: 41:20

So I just want to have an open-handed and humble view when I look at other people who are suffering and not presume that I know why they're struggling to not just presume well, they're dealing with that because they're lazy, they're dealing with that because X, y or Z, whatever could come in to judge that. But then also, you know some people, some of their suffering is related to, maybe, bad choices they've made. It's not. You know, we live in a sinful world. We make bad choices that affect our lives. Other people are going to make bad choices that affect their lives too. And that doesn't mean that now we're exempt, because, you know, jesus saved us when we were His enemies. We did nothing to deserve His mercy, and so we are so called to care. Now the way we care might be different, where it might be okay. How can I care for this person without maybe enabling bad choices.

Amy: 42:07

How can I and that's why in the Psalms it is blessed as he who considers the poor, that we want to consider what's going on in their life, what brought them here, what maybe bigger things are at play. How can I be a good listener? How can I not come in with my own judgments and then, with however I am positioned to care for this person like, let me be wise in how I'm doing that?

Amy: 42:29

Tim Keller, in his excellent book Ministries of Mercy, he said let mercy limit mercy. And what he meant by that was like so say, you're dealing with someone who's struggling with addiction In mercy, you don't keep giving them money, but that doesn't mean you stop showing them mercy. There are going to be ways you care for them, that you are seeking to care for their soul, that you are driving with them to recovery meetings, that there are different ways that we can care for people. So let mercy limit mercy was a really helpful, quick, just like thing for me to hold on to Like when I think of someone before I'm like okay, that's it, I'm out. It's not that. It's. What makes me maybe stop showing mercy in certain ways is that our hearts are still like that. We want to show mercy, and we want to show it in the best way.

Amy: 43:15

So that's gonna maybe morph how we show mercy in certain things, but I think we really do have to be careful about having this idea of like the deserving poor, even if that sets us up to then be very surprised when maybe someone we thought was a deserving poor, well, guess what? They're a sinner too, so they are eventually gonna sin in some way.

Amy: 43:35

And if that makes us wash our hands of them, then like that's not real mercy. So we need to have, just like real views of people. These are whole people. No one's just a victim, no one's just virtuous, no one's just. Everyone has weaknesses and flaws and we're complex people and so the way we show care is gonna be complex. We're multifaceted people, like there are spiritual components, there are physical components. People who have mental suffering and mental illness can affect why they don't have a job.

Amy: 44:08

And we just wanna be aware that there's complicated reasons behind this, so let that stir our heart to have more love, not less.

Shannon: 44:16

Right, yeah, and I'm just thinking about how, when Jesus talks about how, at the end of the age, he's gonna separate the sheep and the goats, you know, and the goats are the ones who did not respond in mercy when were you when I was naked or when I was in prison and needed someone to visit me? We're asked not to create results. I think it's interesting Jesus doesn't separate based on what we accomplished, but more like just our response to what we see in front of us. Right, and I think what I, like you know, as a, when I think of my money and I think I have this power and what I wanna do is I wanna give to something where I see results and I feel good about myself. You know, Like I feel lifted up, like wow, I chose the right thing to give toward and we knocked that problem out and you know I'm the great savior.

Shannon: 45:03

So arrogant, right, so so arrogant. So much arrogance in that. But Jesus just asked us to have mercy and he's not really asking us. You know, what separates us the sheep and the goats is not what we accomplished but just, like I said, our heart towards the needs in front of us, and I just kind of listed out some of the limiting, like the objections, what might keep me from showing mercy? So my money is my own? Or what if this is a trap? Like what if you know what if I'm giving somewhere online and it's you know it's not legit? What if it's not safe, you know, like my trip to Columbia? Or what if this person isn't worthy?

Shannon: 45:41

And then, like you've just done, I'm putting myself as the recipient of Jesus' mercy and noticing he also could have raised any of these objections. You know, when he's looking at me, like I say, my money is my own, jesus could have said my blood is my body is my own, right. And Jesus, you know what if it's a trap? Well, jesus definitely fell into a trap on the cross, right. This was all a very intricately designed trap for him to fall into. And what if it's not safe? Well, the cross was not safe. You know what if this person I'm giving to isn't worthy? Well, we are definitely not worthy. So when I put myself as the recipient, which Jesus has just done in this story, he helps us to enter the story and we see ourselves as the bloody guy on the road, as the recipient of mercy, and then we consider how Jesus treated us.

Amy: 46:31

Yeah, it's so good. That helps even motivate, like how we show mercy. So like if I think, okay, if I was someone who was struggling with drug addiction maybe because I've gone through serious traumatic things in my past and that's how I've coped and I'm struggling with drug addiction how would I want people to love me? Well, yeah, I wouldn't want them to enable me to continue in something that's so destructive, but I would want people to relate to me and to care for me and to minister to me and to care for me in practical ways. So I think when we do, like you said, associate ourselves with the bloody person, that's going to also help us have discernment on, okay, how do I care for this person?

Amy: 47:09

Well, if I were them, how would I want someone to care for me.

Shannon: 47:13

Yeah, identifying with the deany one. So, amy, how does this story correct some of the false narratives that we encounter on a daily basis in the world?

Amy: 47:22

Well, you just have my. Money is my own, and that could be for all of it. Like well, my time, my money, what I do with my life is up to me. And Jesus is kind of showing like no, it's not, Like you're actually, you're called to love your neighbor and your neighbor, whether they're your enemy, remembering you know, when Jesus tells go and do likewise. That's not like an optional, like hey, lawyer, if you feel like it, maybe next time you see someone hurting, maybe you can consider how to care for them.

Amy: 47:53

It's no, go and do likewise, Like we are called to show mercy, and this is, I think, sometimes that like mercy can be viewed as like this optional add on for Christians and that like oh yes, like we are called to sexual purity, like we might be passionate about that rightly so but that it's like, yeah, mercy is like a nice add on thing and it's like no, like mercy is very core to who we are in Christ, what we've been called to, that we are called to show mercy and generosity and to care for those in need, and that if we don't do those things, there's reason to question like God transformed us, the sheep and the goats right, exactly, yeah, that should sober us, that these people who Jesus is talking to you know when they're like well, when did we see you starving?

Amy: 48:38

When did we see you in prison? Like they're shocked. They're like, well, wait, we followed you. Who like, and now you're judging us, and we don't want to be in that same place where we're shocked. Exactly this man God has called us to, and part of Christian discipleship, part of walking in obedience, is walking in mercy.

Shannon: 48:55

Yes, those are some of the most sobering verses in the Bible. They got it wrong because they refused to show mercy, and so I just want to be clear for our listeners that we're not talking about this is the way that we receive eternal life. That's not Jesus's point. This was a man who was trying to limit, bring in, narrow. Who's my neighbor? Let's narrow the list.

Shannon: 49:16

And Jesus is like if you truly are one who has received this mercy from me, it changes you and you become a merciful person. You become someone who, because Jesus made himself poor, he set aside his riches, he gave his life on the cross and because he poured his life out, this is who you become as his follower. It's not just trailing along behind him, it's like we follow, we live like he lived right. We're to become like Jesus and we have no other options. There is no other option for us. Because we are his, we belong to him. So, amy, can you tell us a way that you have lived like this story is true? Because what we want to do is we want to package up these stories and hold on to them when we face the bloody person in the road. We want to recall the story and we want to live like it's true, like live like what Jesus taught us true. So is there a time that I don't know, maybe Jesus changed your mind about something where you made a choice to respond in mercy.

Amy: 50:13

Yeah. So if anyone follows me or has read my book, you'll hear a lot about refugees. I'm very passionate about caring for refugees, but I think it's important to know like it didn't start out that way. I wouldn't say it started out in like a disdain towards refugees. It wasn't anything that I didn't have any negative feelings.

Amy: 50:29

But I remember years, years ago now, that someone with our church was starting some outreach to refugees in the area and he asked my husband to join him and at the time I was just like I didn't want to give up my husband's time. I just didn't want to sacrifice the time because in my mind it was like well, yeah, it was really sad that you were in a country that was war torn, but now you're here and you're safe. It started. So it wasn't that I wished ill on them, but I just kind of was like, well, you're safe now, so like, and you're getting like some aid from the government. So I don't feel like I want us to sacrifice anything from our family to care for you. And then it wasn't until maybe even been a couple years later. So this is a long time ago that that first happened, but when, during the Syrian war, I don't know if you remember when there was a picture of Alon Kirti's body is a three year old little boy who washed up on a Mediterranean shore.

Shannon: 51:20

Yeah.

Amy: 51:21

And you know we talked earlier about statistics and numbers and how those things don't mean anything. Well, I think stories and pictures, that's when that gets us.

Amy: 51:28

So when I saw this three year old boy which captured national attention. I'm like that's what God used to be, like, hey, these people that you said, like they're fine now, Like this is what they're escaping Just really birthed in my heart just compassion for refugees and specifically like who's in my community? So I can't end the wars and the political upheaval and the persecution that causes tens of millions of people to become refugees. I can't control that, but I do know that there are refugees in my community. How can I care for those people? And that was kind of tricky at first. Like I literally like Googled, like where are refugees in New Jersey? Like I didn't know what to do, Like every problem is we don't know even how to get started. And so, through a series of things, I initially started volunteering with Catholic Charities and that connected me with some local refugee families. And then from there like now I wouldn't even say I volunteer, Like I haven't been officially a volunteer, but that got me connected. So I volunteered with Catholic Charities for I think two years and then it's been another four or five years that there are just certain families to me and my husband and our family we visit. We're trying to care for them in practical ways. We're trying to share the gospel with them because they're both. They're Muslims the people that we know are all Muslims. We're trying to just care for them in both practical ways and evangelistic ways, and then keeping tabs on the social worker who had been my main contact to Catholic Charities.

Amy: 52:58

Anytime there's maybe a family who I don't personally know, but that there's specific ways to care for them and seeking to respond. And one cool story with that that I want to share is so there was a family who I didn't know personally but the dad was undergoing a heart surgery, so he was going to be out of work and I was like you know what? I'm just going to take this to Facebook. You know there's so much junk that happens on social media. But I just went up on Facebook and I said hey guys, I would love to be able to cover this family's rent. Like, will you help me in covering this guy's rent? And I just set up like a Facebook fundraiser and within eight hours I raised enough money. Well, I don't want to say I raised.

Amy: 53:35

Within eight hours a group of people raised enough money to cover two months of rent for this family and I know have very different political opinions, different convictions about things, so it was really cool to just see like, okay, this is what.

Amy: 53:51

Like we might believe different things about how many refugees we should resettle, about the best ways to do this or that, but like, when this family's in our face, we're called to like respond. And it was just so encouraging to me to see people who I know I disagree with, Like people who I'm, like I know where I'm in place and to see them come alongside me to care for this family. That's a long way of saying I've been really involved with caring for refugees in our community, but it did not start that way. It started off with me literally saying to my husband like no, I don't want you to help with that, we're too busy, I don't want you to serve in that way. And that really shifted and now it would be like one of my main passions, of how I want to be involved in ministry in my context. So that's only because of Jesus.

Shannon: 54:35

I love that. He does transform us right, he does change us, and it starts with not asking who's my neighbor in a limiting way, but please show me my neighbor that I might, you know, love them and I love the way that you've led us to that. Amy, thank you so much for your book. Thank you so much for your heart and your passion. I'd love for friends to go find this. It's called Go and Do Likewise, a Call to Follow Jesus in a Life of Mercy and Mission. Thank you, amy, and you can always choose who's your neighbor or what he's going to be behind all the other.