How to Live Like It's True that You're Forgiven {Kelly Needham}

The man in our story thought paralysis was his biggest problem, but Jesus took care of an even bigger one. And his friends got to dig up a roof and make a way for it to happen.  

Guest: Kelly Needham
Bible Passage: Mark 2:1-12 CSB
Freebie:  Live Like It's True Workbook 
Resources:

• Friendish by Kelly Needham
• Comparison Girl by Shannon Popkin

Music: Cade Popkin Music
Complete Shownotes: at ShannonPopkin.com

Kelly Needham
Kelly is the author of Friendish: Reclaiming Real Friendship in a Culture of Confusion and she's been featured on Revive Our Hearts, Desiring God, and The Gospel Coalition.

  Whether writing or speaking, Kelly’s aim is to convince as many people as possible that nothing compares to knowing Jesus. You can find more of her writing and speaking at kellyneedham.com or follow her on social media.

Shaped by God's Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith 
     {buy now}

Comparison Girl for Teens
     {buy now}

Get our free "Pray God's Promises" prayer guide.

Go to Shannonpopkin.com/PROMISES/ for more information on my neww Bible study, Shaped by God’s Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith. 

Visit ResoundMedia.cc for the Live Leadership Podcast, along with other Gospel centered resources.

Transcript

Shannon Popkin: 1:36

I'm so excited to welcome my friend, kelly Needham. Kelly is an author, a speaker, she's a gifted Bible teacher and she's passionate about the truth of God's word. Kelly has been featured on Reviver Hearts, Desiring God and the Gospel Coalition. She's married to singer and songwriter Jimmy Needham and they live in the Dallas area with their four kids. I hope you'll take a look at Kelly's book Friendish reclaiming real friendship in a culture of confusion. There's a chapter called Ripping Up Roofs which talks about the very story we're discussing today. Come check the show notes at shannonpopkincom for a link to Kelly's book, her website and her social media contacts.

Kelly Needham: 2:28

Hi Shannon, Thanks for having me.

Shannon Popkin: 2:30

I'm excited to be here. It's been so much fun to get to know you in our little mastermind group and I have learned so much about studying the Bible from you, so we're going to talk today about some friends who took care of another friend and brought their friend to Jesus, and I understand that you had a small group that did this really well, so can you share about?

Kelly Needham: 2:53

that, yeah, when I was, let's see, probably three years or so into marriage, you know early 20s we didn't have good community with people at the time And so I just started reaching out to people And somehow there's a group of about seven of us that formed And we really didn't have strong friendships before that. We just kind of decided we needed friends. We didn't have any, we were going to be friends. So we like sat down at a restaurant, got to know each other and we're like, how do we encourage one another to walk with Christ week in, week out?

Kelly Needham: 3:24

After we kind of started going, it was like all of our lives fell apart. In the span of two years, i think there were something like six or seven miscarriages between all of us. Many jobs are lost by either us as women or our husbands. So there was job loss. There were women who got pregnant for the first time and had really, really bad morning sickness and other things I mean. So it was like there were just regularly someone's life was falling apart. And because we'd kind of gone into this group as like we're just going to decide to be there for each other, gosh, i gave us just this intense season of practice, and so when one of our friends was really sick, being early on in her pregnancy, and she needed a root canal, she started having horrible mouth pain and she just couldn't do anything. So we all decided we're going to go over to her apartment And we went over, we did a couple loads of laundry, we cleaned it for her, we put scripture on the wall.

Kelly Needham: 4:21

And then part of my story is miscarriage, and at one point I was on bed rest in this season with my third pregnancy before I miscarried, and Jimmy was out of town. So it was like my doctor said lay down and don't get up except to go to the bathroom. I was like, okay, what am I going to do? So they took turns coming over and making dinner for me in my house, feeding me dinner and then cleaning up dinner and leaving. I mean, it's so humbling to receive help like that, but we learned to do it for one another And I wouldn't. It was really hard and painful, but I wouldn't trade it Cause we need each other. There are times when we can't do it on our own and we need someone else to carry us through it, and that was a really special season that God had for all of us.

Shannon Popkin: 5:09

That is beautiful. Yeah, i remember being in a small group and we went to clean someone's house together as a group. We didn't know this person, we just knew there was a need and they were from our church And my girlfriend and I said to each other secretly like, oh my word, this house is way cleaner than my house. There was nothing really that needed to be cleaned And I'm like, okay, if this is the state that you need to have your house in order to call a smuggler from church mine's never being touched by a smuggler, but what you're describing is something completely different than that. Like, that is really humbling to invite people into your mass, into your need.

Shannon Popkin: 5:49

There is something really beautiful about people being humble enough to allow us into their lives and us being humble enough to receive others into our lives, and so we're gonna see in this story some of that going on. We're gonna be talking about the story of the paralytic who was healed by Jesus in Mark, chapter two. So, kelly, would you read that passage? This is Mark two versus one through 12 in the CSB version.

Kelly Needham: 6:20

One left him, it says. When he entered Capernaum again after some days, it was reported that he was at home. So many people gathered together that there was no more room, not even in the doorway, and he was speaking the word to them. They came to him bringing a paralytic carried by four of them. Since they were not able to bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him And after digging through it, they lowered the mat on which the paralytic was lying.

Kelly Needham: 6:47

Seeing their faith, jesus told the paralytic son, your sins are forgiven. But some of the scribes were sitting there questioning in their hearts Why does he speak like this? He's blaspheming. You can forget sins by God alone. Right away Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were thinking like this within themselves and said to them why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier to say to the paralytic your sins are forgiven? or to say get up, take your mat and walk. But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, he told the paralytic I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home. Immediately he got up, took the mat and went out in front of everyone. As a result, they were all astounded and gave glory to God, saying we have never seen anything like this.

Shannon Popkin: 7:37

So, okay so let's start, kelly, with just setting the scene here. People are crowding in because this is the type of teacher who he doesn't just stay away with the other Pharisees and teachers, you know, he doesn't just do dinner parties, he invites anybody who wants to come and listen to him teach, and so they're all crowding in and it is so crowded that you can't really get in the door. So we've got this man who is paralyzed. And you know, kelly, one of the things that you and I talk about in studying the Bible is we have to see these stories through the eyes of the first readers, this culture that Jesus is part of. And when we see someone who's paralyzed today, we think, oh, this person needs extra compassion. But when they saw someone who was paralyzed, they saw, oh, that's a person who's sinned right. So what does this say about these friends? And what were these first readers thinking when they heard about friends bringing this paralytic to Jesus?

Kelly Needham: 8:38

Yeah, and not just one friend. Four, yeah, four. I think it says something about the friends and something about the paralytic, because, yeah, that would be the common perception that you have some hidden sin in your life or something that has you sinned or someone else's sin related to you, that you are like this. And for that to be the case and for people to be willing to be associated with him and then not just be associated with him, carry him like do heavy lifting, i think speaks to something in the paralytic, because if you were just bitter and cynical, he's not gonna have friends like that. But he has four friends. And if you look at like statistics now and ask people how many close friends they feel like they have, like they could really bear their heart too. I mean, the average is like one or two now. So then, to have four friends, that is amazing And it does say something about the relationship that they have, that they're willing to be.

Kelly Needham: 9:30

These four friends are willing to be associated with this man and all the shame that would come with that and with them that maybe they would be seen by the Pharisees as enablers or as people who don't let him have the hook and carry him around like he's sinned, probably like let him learn his lesson, i don't know, but that very likely could have been the posture. But they willingly bring them. And that's always made me wonder. When Jesus says, seeing their faith, like who is the day he's talking about? Is he only talking about the friends? But we know, as we just talked about, it's really humbling to be helped, so to let himself be carried in a place where there was such a crowd. I mean, there's faith in his own heart too. There has to be. So I've always wondered, jesus, are you talking about all five of them? I think it's gotta include that paralytic, that he would let himself be helped that way, so humbling and hard. It's always easier to help than to be helped, you know So.

Shannon Popkin: 11:10

Oh it is, And you just think about when you're paralyzed you have no control over your limbs, you can't move, you can't And that can be awkward being carried, what if your leg slips over the mat in an awkward way and being lowered through a roof. That is a really hard, humbling situation for this man to put himself in, but for him it was worth it and for them it was worth it. Yeah, we're seeing something that probably didn't happen on your average Tuesday or whatever day this happens, and so, okay, let's talk about what they do. Actually, roofs were different then, so tell us what does this mean, this digging through the roof?

Kelly Needham: 11:50

Yeah, i know, no one could dig through our roofs all right, just with their hands. So which, to me, tells me this roof was probably built by hands. I'm not an expert in New Testament architecture of the day, but generally I think understanding is that a roof is gonna be flat and serve as an extra space in your house that you can be on top of. And again, this says something about the friends This is someone else's property. Yeah, this is someone else's hard work. Someone else slaved probably over this roof to make it, and you just are haphazardly like we're sorry, we're just gonna dig the roof out of this house, but that's not ours. And I don't know if that probably means it's native clay, mud. And it doesn't seem like they have other tools because their hands are probably busy carrying them at when they are carrying it. And so here you have friends get their hands grimy.

Shannon Popkin: 12:41

Right, there's some ingenuity here too. Right, They probably weren't expecting it to be quite this crowded. I think this was plan B, do you think?

Kelly Needham: 12:52

Who knows what they were thinking. I mean, maybe there's definitely got to be some pivoting going on, that, like Jesus is in town, we're going to see him and everything is blocked, and it's like that doesn't stop them. So whether they thought it was going to be crowded or not, i don't know, but they are determined, nothing will stop them and they're willing to damage someone else's property. I don't know. That that's the takeaway. Jesus is so preeminently important to them, to get to him, that they're willing to be misunderstood, to be accused of tearing up roofs. They're saying that cost is worth it. Maybe they thought we'll replace it later. Who knows, maybe they're good at building roofs and like, oh, we can fix this later, but even so, even if it were that that's a lot of work later, you know. So they're still saying there's a big cost to get in here, but that doesn't matter, we've got to get to Jesus somehow and we're going to then just going to go through the roof.

Shannon Popkin: 13:51

Dig it up And I mean, i love the fact that they got their hands dirty. It's a roof made of some sort of mud or something. You know that they could dig through to help get somebody to Jesus. They got their reputations dirty, they got their hands dirty. So this is vandalism, this is kindness, this is ingenuity, this is determination. And then, okay, the roof is dug up and they've got him on some sort of a mat or something and they're lowering him through, and it's so crowded down there that the people are obviously, you know, the sermon has been interrupted And so someone's being lowered and I just picture all the hands going up to like, lower him down. And so here he is, and what is Jesus going to do? So what happens next?

Kelly Needham: 14:36

Well, you'd think that, jesus, you're going to heal his paralyzed body, right? Yeah, what do you do, you know? and he doesn't address it. I mean that kind of feels like, if I'm not, you know, you're sent to forgiven. right, that's what Jesus says. He forgives soon. It's like, well, it's not what I was maybe who knows what he's hoping for?

Shannon Popkin: 14:57

We don't know.

Kelly Needham: 14:57

We don't know how the man reacted or the friends reacted. Did they? Yeah, I don't know, but it definitely doesn't seem. it's not the thing you expect from the story It is For sure. Yeah, we may be expecting it because we're familiar, maybe, with the story and we've heard it, but definitely not the response that I think the people would expect from him.

Shannon Popkin: 15:14

Right And it does not follow the pattern of the other miracle stories in the Gospels. There is no other example of Jesus seeing someone with some physical ailment and responding Your sins are forgiven. So clearly there's some tie with this man being known as a sinner in his community. What do you think that would mean to this man? The whole community has been looking at him, seeing his paralysis on the outside and judging what's going on in his life on the inside. What do you think it meant for this man to have Jesus say your sins are forgiven.

Kelly Needham: 15:51

Jesus to this man and these friends is not just anybody. They go through a lot to get in front of him And so to hear a proclamation, not a shame of works, of try harder, you know, and get your act together, but one of forgiveness. Even who knows what he was expecting. Was he expecting healing? Maybe he thought that would be a statement of a forgiven inside? I don't know. But, gosh, when you are aware of your need and to have somebody proclaim you forgiven I'm not just saying God can forgive you or he will I mean he's using language Your sins are forgiven And he's just a done deal.

Kelly Needham: 16:34

Gosh, that's got to be so relieving, so freeing and refreshing to have this man that you esteem so highly that you were willing to be humbled in front of a group of people and let your friends dig their roof. And it's public. I mean, most of us don't want to our sin to be dealt with in such a public way, but to know that we're in need and have someone proclaim us forgiven. I actually am happening in your church congregation like you come up afterwards, you know, come up on stage while the after the sermon is happening And you don't tell the details of your sin, but to have someone go.

Kelly Needham: 17:05

Let's talk about your need for forgiveness, that you are forgiven. None of us want to do that. But here this man is in a crowd of people watching And his sin is being dealt with again a statement of his lack of pride and and his humility and, obviously, his faith in Jesus. So, gosh, it had to be really relieving and refreshing to hear that spoken over him, and in a public way. I mean it would be humbling, but I think it would be. You'd have witnesses to that event.

Shannon Popkin: 17:32

Right, and so we're expecting Jesus to just heal him. They weren't really expecting the whole. Let's deal with the sin thing, but we love it that Jesus deals with the sin, because, whatever physical element that we have, it just doesn't compare to our need for forgiveness. That need goes to our core, and Jesus deals with that first. What about this whole? seeing their faith, though, what role do these friends have in this man's forgiveness story?

Kelly Needham: 18:03

The phrase seeing their faith, i think is fascinating. Yeah, because we don't normally think of faith as being visible. It's something in our heart, right, but it reminds me of what James says in his epistle that faith that doesn't express itself in action is not real faith. True faith moves us in some ways. It doesn't ever just stay here. Faith is not works, and works don't mean faith, but real faith in a heart it just can't stay here. So it's interesting that he says he saw their faith. I mean, i guess Jesus, he knows right, he can see their hearts. He perceives in his spirit later that what other people are thinking to themselves. Jesus is not just a new prophet in town to them. I don't know, we don't know. They fully understood what he was here to do. You know whether they knew for sure he was the Messiah or not this early in Jesus's ministry. But they see something in him that is so paramount, anything. They have faith in Jesus and it's apparent in the lengths they're willing to go to get in front of him And Jesus sees that expression of faith and again I think that I think it's very reasonable to say that faith was of the friends, to say he's the answer. That's what they're proclaiming in their action. Jesus is the answer. We've got to get there, no matter what, or the friend to go, i'll be carried there. I don't care if it looks awkward, my paralytic body coming through it. I'm in front of a crowd of people. Get me there.

Kelly Needham: 19:56

Jesus is the answer and that determination is what it is a beautiful expression of faith that Jesus responds to. And we see Jesus do this and other times it reminds me of a woman who comes to Jesus and she's like I'm in front of a table and chain, you remember. I'm like what was her heritage? I don't remember, but she has a daughter in need and you know, jesus says it's not good for me to give the bread to the dog. I'll be a dog in this scenario. Get the crumbs from the table. Like she is, like Jesus. You are my answer. I don't care how humiliated I am in the process of pursuing you, but I'm getting to you and he says this is great faith and he was.

Kelly Needham: 20:38

Jesus responds to it. We see him respond again to that and we see him here, see a great expression of somebody when you're the answer and I'm determined and he responds. And I think that faith is obviously not just the paralytic, because the text uses there, so we know he means the friends are included in this faith. And what a beautiful thing that the faith of a friend can result in the forgiveness of someone else and that these friends had a faith that resulted in their friends renewed spiritual state. I mean that is huge. It gives me so much hope for the faith that I have for God to work in people's life, in my own life, to go. Okay, there is something I can do. In some ways I can't do anything but just go. Jesus, i gotta get to you. But I can carry my friend in prayer and in other ways.

Shannon Popkin: 21:30

But being their faith. what a great faith, yes, and I think that when we have that same determination to get to Jesus, it does show up in our lives. Our faith is active and our faith is obvious to those around us, and our faith does influence other people. Now there are some other people in the story who are not quite as pleased as everyone else. Let's talk about the other people in the room, the Pharisees. They are. they're there not for the same reason as the others. They're looking for a way to accuse Jesus, to trap him. They want to bring him down. Ultimately, these are the people who will murder Jesus. How do they see what's going on here?

Kelly Needham: 22:14

Well, they're. They're definitely looking. They're looking for mistakes. I mean, jesus doesn't say much in this scenario And the only thing he said so far is sends at least what we know. Sends you a sense of forgiveness. And that's enough for them to then go. Wait, hold on a second. You know, i'm sure they felt rightly judgmental as scribes, people who know the law really well, like God oh my God can forgive sins, which is, which is true. Jesus is God. They don't know that yet, but they're definitely not happy with what's happening and questioning in their heart. It's interesting, right, that faith of the friends is very visible on the outside and what they're doing And these scribes are not active on the outside. Just as they're sitting there, they're not moving, they're not standing up and throwing stones and going how dare you? It's just they're, they're laying back. But in their hearts is a different thing happening. And Jesus, even without the external happening, he still knows what's going on and leans into it.

Shannon Popkin: 23:14

He perceives it. Yeah, why are you thinking these things in your hearts? And yeah, and so he responds with well, you know which is easier? like you could be an imposter and get away with saying your sins are forgiven. You can't be an imposter and say get up and walk right, cause everyone will know that you're an imposter if you say that and nothing happens. So they're calling out, they're accusing him of blasphemy, and how does Jesus respond?

Kelly Needham: 23:44

He definitely doesn't avoid the conflict I mean, that's a good word for all the conflict of order but he leans into it. You know he's like, oh okay, i'll meet you there. You know he leans into that. You know Jesus is the wisdom of God. So what a wise response to kind of turn that back on them. Why are you thinking these things? I mean, there's even a question of, there's a problem that you're even thinking like this. Why are you thinking these things, all the things you could be thinking? why these?

Kelly Needham: 24:14

He's already kind of trying to deal with their heart motivation and then to give them evidence and opportunity to believe. I feel like this is such an opportunity Jesus is giving these scribes to go. You tell me which is easier, like you're saying. I mean, these scribes probably regularly looked for imposters or people that were not teaching how they would want things to be taught, false prophets and things like that. And so he's kind of calling their bluff Who am I? you know you're going to point the finger at me and tell me I'm an imposter to be saying this. You tell me what's easier. Anybody can say this let me show you.

Kelly Needham: 24:48

And he says, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins, which is a huge statement, because we don't think much of Son of Man. It sounds like a very humble thing. He just called him Son of Man. That's a reference to Daniel. This vision of Daniel that is like, yeah, the Son of Man on the throne, i mean there's like to describe that would be highly offensive to even go there and call him Son of Man. But he's like so that you know, i have authority, i'm going to give you an opportunity to see him. The real deal. That is a bold response, man for Jesus, to these men who are just over there in the corner sitting still and just scheming in their hearts And right.

Shannon Popkin: 25:24

I love the fact, like you pointed out, that Jesus responds to their hearts with a question, because his questions are always invoking a response from us, that we can't deny questions. We answer them in our heads, whether we answer them with our mouths And by saying why are you thinking these things Really? it is an invitation to take a look at their own hearts. Why are you thinking this? Like? why is that the first like? I love how you phrase that, kelly Why is it the first thing that comes to your mind? And then, yeah, that bold statement the Jewish people. They didn't have the New Testament. Obviously They had the Old Testament.

Shannon Popkin: 26:04

This was a huge reference. The Son of man. It wasn't something he said very often. It's almost like he's taken the bait, taken him on right. Yep, that's me. But then the beauty of I want you to be able to know, i want your faith to have opportunity to grow here, but so that you may know he wants for them to be able to know They have questions, but he wants to meet even them. So Jesus isn't just for one person in the story. Jesus invites all the different people from the story, but all of the different people are they're going to need to take the same path that the paralytic. And these friends have taken this determination, this willingness to abandon all sense of propriety or, you know, just to humble themselves to get to Jesus. He is what they need.

Kelly Needham: 26:57

This is a super crowded space. There is no more room, not even in the doorway, So you just got packed people in there. So I even just the visual of this man getting up for the first time. Did it take him a long time? He hasn't used them in so long.

Kelly Needham: 27:14

I mean, even think about with people who aren't paralyzed If you're in a cast for a while and those limbs haven't been used, but he's trying to figure out how long has even paralyzed his whole life as he's toddler learning to walk. It's probably awkward, But it's also amazing. And he's probably trying to roll up his mat. He says he took the mat. How did he take it? And everybody. It's crowded. And how does he walk out of the door? He has to go through people.

Kelly Needham: 27:42

I mean that whole experience would be physical, I think, even for the crowd, in the sense that they have to be moving around to let him walk through. And so, Jesus, for not only the friends and the man, which the friends we think, are still on the roof. What are they doing? Are they watching through the beams? Are they getting down to meet their friend? I don't know There's, just it helps me to think about the hot, sweaty room that it maybe was, and this awkward man trying to get up. And not only are these religious people addressed, the man is addressed and the friends are addressed, but the crowd is not addressed by Jesus directly, But they certainly.

Kelly Needham: 28:20

They say as a result, all were astounded And they are saying it says whether they're all saying the same phrase, but a lot of them are at least saying we have never seen anything like this. So you can just imagine them whispering to each other OK, have you, I've never have you. You know, whatever, Maybe they knew him, Maybe they didn't. They're just in shock, talking to each other and having to move out of the way for him to leave the room. I mean, the door was blocked, So people are having to move to let him out. And it says they gave glory to God. What a different posture than the religious leaders that even this watching crowd again, whether they fully understood what he was there to do. They're rightly glorifying God. They recognize this is of the Lord And in their hearts they're celebrating it and speaking to one another about it. And what an experience that would be. It wasn't theoretical for the crowd either. It affected them in some ways. Some of them probably left with pieces of the roof in their hair.

Kelly Needham: 29:19

They're digging through it. It was probably rain roof for several minutes, so I don't know. It's amazing Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: 29:27

Yeah, i love the fact that so many were touched physically Right Their hearts were touched. But they experienced this as a corporate group of people And there's a sense in which, when someone is forgiven and their sins are washed clean and they get up and walk spiritually, we do all get to experience that Corporately. They become one of us and they have this new life that they get to walk And we get to enjoy that and experience that together. And what a joy to be part of that in other people's lives.

Kelly Needham: 30:06

So everybody tends to look at this and go man, i want to touch Jesus and see Jesus with my senses And we can really disdain sometimes our position in history Go why now? Why can't I be back then? But one of the ways we know Jesus is real and we can know that through our senses is the transformation that happens in human heart when they meet Him is physical, like you said, i think of my own life. Jesus has really transformed my words and how I speak to people, as He's humbled me. So my husband, for example, would tell you his ears are hearing different things as a result of Jesus transforming me Less criticality and harsh words, like there's a real, tangible effect.

Kelly Needham: 30:51

Or I think about people that I know that have struggled with addiction to alcohol and Jesus comes into their heart and transforms them And physically they smell different, right They differently, you know. Or people that are harsh with their hands. One of my daughters is really angry of a little three-year-old and hit her sister a lot and punched her and pulled her hair and did all of that And Jesus has transformed her. She put her faith in Him And physically that has had physical changes in her that are felt by other people, and that, for me, is that's one of the things I tell myself when doubt creeps in. You know, is this real? I mean, we all have those moments. Like you know, i see physical things with my senses of experience because Jesus came into a heart, whether mine or someone I know, and I hear different things, i smell different things, i feel different things, i see different things because of Jesus, just like the man, just like these friends, and that should encourage and strengthen our faith. He's that real still today.

Shannon Popkin: 31:58

That is beautiful. I mean, yeah, just imagine this community seeing this man walking around, right. Every time they saw him they could remember the dust and the dirt in their hair from the roof right And just remembering the physical transformation that spoke to something that only Jesus could do on the inside and the outside, so that thank you so much for sharing that. So all right, kelly. What does it look like to live like?

Kelly Needham: 32:24

this story is true We really believed, like it was true, that Jesus has proclaimed over our hearts that we're forgiven, i think we'd walk around with less shame and fear and discouragement. I mean, to think about the biggest problem in my life has been doubtful. I mean, this is just gosh that should make me walk around in freedom and joy and confidence, even with a sense of hopefulness about all my other problems, like if he can deal with my sin. Gosh, this is small fries, you know, compared to that and compared to the ramifications of my issue with my sin.

Shannon Popkin: 33:02

Yes, i love that because if Jesus were to triage our issues right, he would put the most emphasis on our sin and that has been dealt with. And so part of living like it's true what I hear you saying is living like those are the small issues in life. Really, the main thing has been dealt with And we can enjoy. We have confidence that our sins are forgiven And even if we have to experience paralysis or some other really difficult way that our bodies are failing us, death has been swallowed up in victory, like there is nothing that will keep us bound permanently. And so one day, this new life that has sprung up in us, we'll experience it physically after we die, and that should just give us so much hope. Let's talk about how to live like it's true with these friends.

Shannon Popkin: 33:55

You know this man. He was paralyzed, he could not get to Jesus on his own. People were crowding in, the path was blocked, and I think that's true sometimes today for people who are paralyzed in their sin. They can't get to Jesus. There are crowds of Jesus followers that just kind of block their way. They don't feel welcome. They can't get to him. How can we play a role in getting people to Jesus?

Kelly Needham: 34:21

Well, i think sometimes that starts with being convinced that that's what they need more than anything else. Because, especially when someone is also dealing with suffering, it can be tempting to try and fix those things and go, yeah, and you need Christ, but like you see in these friends going, no, that's the most important thing. Whatever else we do, you have to get to Him and to first assess for our friends. That's the greatest need I need to get this person to Christ. Jesus isn't walking around in his body on this earth right now. It doesn't look like it looked like for them. It's not like Jesus showed up in Dallas today. It's like sweet, but we'll get a direct feel physically. But there's what ingenuity. Can we use creativity and determination on behalf of someone else to get them to Him?

Kelly Needham: 35:14

And I really do think that most often looks like prayer and intercession. And I know that feels. I know I feel sometimes it's like gosh, yeah, yeah, i should pray for them, but I want to do something. I want to do something else. I love helping people, so like I physically want to get in there and get my hands dirty in those ways And like I'll pray for them too, but I've really this story has really taught me. That is the main work Get them to Christ. And I think one of the most important ways that I do that is I'm going to pray for them, but not like as I go on my way, as I drive, i'll say a prayer for them. It's like these these were focused, determined friends. That's all they were doing that day was carrying their friend. They weren't doing other things.

Kelly Needham: 36:00

And so what does it look like for me, for someone who's not in Christ and I want their sins to be forgiven, or even a friend who is in Christ who, like, needs breakthrough in some way? I'm going to stop it. I'm doing. I'm going to get on my knees in my house, in my kitchen, somewhere else, to carry their need to Christ in my prayers And believe that Jesus sees that stopping me, stopping my activity, me stopping my busy day to do that. He sees the faith that I have in that moment to say, jesus, you're what they need And I'm carrying this need to you on their behalf, and that my asking of him at that moment is Lord, see my face, like you saw their friend's face, like I'm here on this person's behalf, at your feet, saying I can't do it. All the help that I could give in the world with my hands. Sure, i could go over and I could bring a meal. I'm not saying don't do it, but like if there's a bigger transformation that I that needs to happen, i'm coming to you saying it's you we need. They don't need me, they need you and I'm begging you to to see my faith and respond on their behalf.

Kelly Needham: 37:04

And that's really hard to do for your friends because it's hidden work, no one sees it, there's no validation And in some ways your friend doesn't feel it right away. You know it's not like, oh, thank you for serving me by pouring your heart out and prayer for me. I mean, maybe you would tell them I'm praying for you today, but generally it's a hidden work, it doesn't, it's not immediately validated, and so we really do have to have the faith, like the friends did, that this matters. And maybe it looks embarrassing to the crowd that I would waste my time to dig up a roof. It's like, no, i'm, i'm going to do this.

Kelly Needham: 37:40

And maybe too, for that person it looks like the boldness to go to somebody who's not a Christian and say I've been thinking about your life. I think Jesus the answer I'd love to pray with you and over you. Would you be open to that? It's like, oh, there's a risky right. It's like you don't know how they're going to respond, but you know what They might go. I've been waiting for you to ask me. You never know And maybe they'll say no, don't. We ask that to a neighbor once who is not a believer and had some problems, and we said we pray for you, we love that, and his response was no, please don't. I would prefer you not, but you know what that did for my husband and I. That makes me want to pray all the more.

Shannon Popkin: 38:17

Exactly.

Kelly Needham: 38:19

So I'm like that doorway is blocked. Ok, we'll climb up on the roof and we're still. We are still carrying that man in our hearts to the Lord, trying to dig through a roof on his behalf to get him there when he doesn't want to be there yet himself. How do I? How do I do this? How do I learn from these four people? I want to emulate their faith on behalf of their friend and walk that out my life.

Shannon Popkin: 38:43

That's beautiful. So is there a time like a personal example that you can give of a time that you've lived either like this isn't true, that friends are involved in getting other friends to Jesus, or that you have lived as though it's true?

Kelly Needham: 38:56

Yeah, i, i think I live like it's not true most often when, gosh, i long for change in people's lives, but I tend to think it's me they need I'll help. You know, i know that sounds really so arrogant, but my thought is I see a need and I'm and even a spiritual need, and I'm like, oh, oh, maybe I need to disciple you, you know, or like, let's get together and do this, you know, and in some ways God's put me in their life and I don't want to discredit that. He has a role for me to play. But one of the times this came out most profoundly is I do something annually now, every summer, a week of solitude where I'm just saying I'm not going to talk to anybody besides who lives in my house, to give myself more time with the Lord and to pray about some things. And at the beginning of this week I tell most of my close friends hey, i'm going to turn my phone on. Do not disturb, you know, don't freak out If you can't get a hold of me and pray for me during this week.

Kelly Needham: 39:47

And so my friends knew that in day one of my solitude week, one of my dearest, closest friends experienced something. Just bottom fell out. Just the worst I mean it was. It was heart wrenching. She, as a woman of the Lord, did call and we did talk, but she said to me I believe that God is purposeful in his timing. So I'm telling you, feel the freedom, kelly, stay true to what you set in your heart to do. There's other people in my life to walk with me in this, this week, while you're on your solitude week, and please pray for us And I'm going to be okay because I have the Lord and I have other people.

Kelly Needham: 40:23

And it was that week was so hard for me and it exposed me. I want to do something, i want to be in the action, i want to help And I remember praying for her and talking to God about it and going God, i don't believe that praying for her is enough. I don't believe it's enough, like that's really what's going on in my heart. Caring this to you, just me and you in prayer, doesn't feel good enough.

Kelly Needham: 40:44

And he really exposed that to me that I just really didn't value intercessory prayer as doing anything. It almost felt like I should do it a checkbox, but then I should go do something else. You know, and I think a lot of the times we do need to do the other thing, but for me in that moment he helped me see this is the true work. This is how you carry your friends to me And you need to believe that it's doing something because you don't. And it was a hard lesson, but it was really. It was really good for me and it helped me increase the value of praying for people and really believing it is like what these friends are doing, it's actually doing something.

Shannon Popkin: 41:19

It's actually digging through that roof and creating a breakthrough opportunity and bringing people on their stretchers to our Jesus.