It always seems like the person who says, I need to step back from this. This isn't healthy. They're the bad guy because we live in a culture where everybody's so good at playing the victim, and yet you see a repeated pattern of behavior.
SPEAKER_00First John 1, he talks about us being children of light, but we walk in darkness if we're not careful. But here's the thing about darkness: if you are walking in that kind of darkness, the only thing you have awareness of is yourself. The scripture goes on to say there that when we walk in darkness, if we say that we have fellowship with God, but we hate our brother, we are walking in darkness and we are not in fellowship with God. And so again, it goes back to the boundary. It's not to say that you allow yourself to be in harmful or abusive or hurtful situations. The hope for boundaries is that it motivates that person's heart to change to see the good that can come when a relationship is healthy.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Let's Talk About That, the podcast where we deep dive into Sunday's message and explore your questions. I'm your host, Aston Kank, and I'm excited to share this journey with you. Whether you're a longtime member of The Orchard or a first-time visitor, Let's Talk About That is your space to explore, reflect, and connect. Join us as we navigate the intricacies of faith, spirituality, and daily life, seeking to understand how the wisdom shared on Sundays can be applied to our modern challenges. So, grab a cup of coffee, find a comfortable space, and let's dive in together. This is Let's Talk About That, where the conversation about Sunday's message never stops. Well, welcome back to Let's Talk About That. Yesterday we wrapped up our three-week sermon series, Scars in the Soul. And in this series, we discuss grief, loneliness, and estrangement on Sundays, as well as continuing the conversation here on the podcast. If you missed the last two episodes, I would encourage you to go back and listen to them because they were so, so, so good. Today we are going to be wrapping up the final week of our series, and we're going to be talking about estrangement. Chip and I have the pleasure of sitting across the table from someone who calls the orchard home and is also a biblical relationship counselor in our area. We have the one and only Miss Angie Land.
SPEAKER_00How are you today? Um great. Thank you guys for having me. And probably, thank goodness, there is only one. So we'll start with that.
SPEAKER_03That's funny. Now, this is not your first time on the podcast, though. We've had you on the podcast before. Yes. It's probably been a year, maybe or so. I think maybe even longer than that, potentially. But yeah, I mean, we are a long-standing podcast now. We are in the 120s.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and third season.
SPEAKER_03Third season. And third host.
SPEAKER_01Third.
SPEAKER_03Keep running through them host now.
SPEAKER_01Well, Miss Angie, we're so glad to have you here. But would you just give our listeners a little background information about who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_00Sure. So um Angie Land and I married to Alton. We celebrated 40 years last year. Yes. That's awesome. Big accomplishment, absolutely. And we still really like each other. We enjoy being that sweet season of life where our kids are all grown and we travel to go see our grandbabies as often as possible. And so, yeah, it's just a real sweet season. So I have been working as a relationship biblical relationship counselor for the Lafayette Baptist Association for about, I think this is year 26. Wow. And just love, I always tell people I came into the counseling ministry through the back door. Okay. I did not think that was what God was, I did not know that was what God was going to call me to. And I felt in my 20s when I was raising children and staying home, I felt a call from God for something. I really, I think I thought that it was going to be for teaching.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00I wrote some Bible studies. I taught quite a few Bible studies in our area and would do speaking engagements, other places and stuff. But during that season, when I look back now, I just fell so in love with God's word. I spent a lot of time when my kids were napping. I spent a lot of time studying the Bible. And I had a retired pastor who really poured into me as a mentor and taught me so much about scripture. And he was the one who told me that I think God has gifted you to teach. And I loved teaching. And so I kind of fast forwarded through that when my kids started school. Our director of missions at the time, his name was Jake Cravey. He was a pastor and just a family friend. We loved Brother Jake so much. And he, the Southern Baptist Convention at the time, started big awareness about families. Okay. And we need to really focus on our families. And so a lot of the associations were getting new, it was voluntary positions, like a volunteer thing. Voluntold. That's really like yes, of family life, family life director. And so Brother Jake called me and said, Hey, would you like to do this? And I said, Well, what does it look like? And he said, Well, we've never had one before, so you can make it look for whatever. And so what I started doing, because we have a lot of small rural churches in our um association, that the pastor is sometimes the only one on staff. And so for us to say to them, you need to start doing Bible studies for couples and parents and stuff, that just they didn't have time or you know, resources. And so I would go to their churches and teach those studies for I would go once a week for six weeks or things like that, and just have groups and we would do studies. Well, what started happening when I would teach marriage classes is I would always have a couple or two that would come up and say, Hey, that was really good, but we've got this situation. What can you help us with that? And the pastor there has, you know, he's ready to turn the lights off and shut the door and go home to his family. And so we would say, Well, meet me at the office, you know, if y'all want to meet me at the office. And it starts that started happening a lot. And so the association saw the need and they came and said, We will make this a staff position if you can do that. And I thought, but I'm not a counselor. And they said, But that's what God's using you as.
SPEAKER_03Well, you kind of are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so so Alton and I talked about it, prayed about it. I started taking classes through the American Association of Christian Counselors, even way back then. Started just, I need some help here. I need some material. And then I ended up going back to school to liberty. Okay, and online while my kids were in school and stuff and getting my degree. And I'm just fascinated by people's personalities and the differences in perspectives. Yeah. And when you start talking to people, it's so funny because the problems are not very often all that different that people deal with. It's how they look at it and their experiences in life and stuff. So all of that is so fascinating to me.
SPEAKER_03And I love Just because they haven't gone through it before doesn't mean anybody hasn't gone through it before.
SPEAKER_00Well, what does Ecclesiastes say? There's nothing new under the sun. Yeah, not hidden about that. And how communication really bridges that gap. So, real quick, I have to tell this story because it's the just the value of communication. So my granddaughter's 12. Okay. And you know, middle school kids that age is they're trying to figure out relationships. And she had this little best friend, and they have been best friends for several years, two to three years. And all of a sudden they're not speaking anymore. And they hate each other's guts and all this stuff. And this went on for a little while. And so my son and I were talking about it. And he, I said, Have y'all tried getting the girls together and just trying to figure out what's the root of this? So they met at a boat ramp at park, you know, at the park in Dixie and met and had both the girls, and either one of them wanted to come. They were mad. But the parents sat there and had the girls talk maybe, maybe 30 minutes. When it was all over, they were best friends again. One of them went home, spent the night with the other one. They've been good ever since. That's the power of communication, even when you're 12. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I think we we don't recognize that. And we're so quick to say to our kids, well, if they're not nice to you, just don't be friends with them. Or something along those lines. Instead of, well, hey, have you tried talking about it? Yeah. And seeing, did you say something that hurt her feelings, or did she say something that hurt your feelings? Maybe it was a misunderstanding. So even at 12, the power of communication is so huge. And that that really is the biggest struggle that I see with people. So anyway, all that just fascinates me. I love it.
SPEAKER_03Angie and I, you know, both uh really enjoy digging into like personality tests and we were talking about that right before the podcast. Yeah, and we talked about that last week with Miriam on here as well. And so, you know, Angie's kind of always been the one that can nerd out with me on some of that stuff because it is like what you're saying is not always what somebody's hearing. Yeah. Absolutely. What they're hearing is not what you said. And, you know, so somebody once said, I can't remember who it was, the greatest enemy of communication is the illusion that it's taking place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's good. Yeah, because people a lot of times will say, Well, I didn't say that. Well, if you go back and re-record it, that is exactly word for word what you said. What you meant was that's not what you intended to communicate.
SPEAKER_03Listen to what I mean, not what I say.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, seriously. Well, we have you here to talk about estrangement specifically. So can you help us understand what is estrangement and estrangement and what are some common estrangement relationships that you see?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the best description or definition that I saw of estrangement was pointed out to me that the word strange is right in the word estrangement. And estrangement is when someone who once was intimate or close to you is now a stranger. You make them or they make themselves a stranger.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And so I love that definition of the fact, and that I think that's why estrangement is so painful. Yeah. Is because who wants to be treated as a stranger by someone that they knew as intimate or you know, close friendship, close family relationship. And so some of the, and we talked about this yesterday, Chip did in the sermon, of the difference between voluntary and involuntary. So, because even for me, I was like, wait, when is there voluntary estrangement? But what that's talking about is which side of the situation that you're on. If you're the one who rec maybe recognizes a legitimate need to step away from a relationship, that would be the voluntary side. Like you're choosing to do that. And the involuntary side is when someone else chooses that for you and that's not what you want. Yeah. And so it's not two different types of estrangement, it's two different sides of estrangement.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So just to make that elementary.
SPEAKER_03And I guess in fairness, there can be mutually voluntary estrangement, you know? But in my experience at least, for it to really be estrangement, right? Because it was somebody you were close with, it's usually somebody chooses it and then the other person doesn't choose it, even if because one side chose it, now it makes them want to, you know what I mean? Like it's usually an initiating party in the estrangement.
SPEAKER_00And the response to it is kind of a pride thing. Yeah, well, if you don't want me, I don't want you, kind of thing. Yeah. And and I think that that is that is true with estrangement. But I think also another word that probably estrangement I know is more of a cultural thing that we hear now. But I think a word that really gets a little more to the heart of it would be abandonment. Because when you say the word abandonment, you feel that someone has abandoned you, especially if they have cut off all ties and communication, and you don't really even know what the problem is. And I think that's happening in our culture a lot. And I think that deeper level of that where there's no communication, there's no real understanding of why this is happening. It's just I'm done, I'm out, don't talk to me, whatever, that feels like you feel the abandonment of that too. You know what I mean? And so one of the articles that I read in thinking about this was talking about when a parent is estranged from a child by the parent's choice, that that like maybe a divorce happens and the parent, one parent moves away and the child stays with the other parent and the there's no contact or very little. That feels like abandonment to that child who really had no fault in the you know, in the issue or whatever. But some of the common estrangements that I see in counseling, of course, have to do with with marriage, with one partner saying to the other, I'm done. I don't want to go to counseling, I'm, you know, I don't want to work on this anymore. I tried to get the famous thing is I tried to get you to go to counseling five years ago, you didn't want to. And now that I'm finally done, now you're wanting to try to work on things and I'm I'm done. I don't want to anymore. I was sharing with Aston that I have worked with several couples with families with estrangement of a family member. And in the past year, I've had two and one has reconciled with the family member, which is pretty awesome, and but the other one has not. And just seeing the, you know, really approaching it the same way, but just different outcomes because the family dynamics were different and and things like that.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think too, you know, whether it's marriage, parent, child, sibling, family, I think that it is worth saying, you know, that there is a what we would see as maybe a legitimate reason for estrangement, and then illegitimate reasons for estrangement. And Andy, what you were describing, and we touched on a little bit in the message, is that what we're seeing is maybe a rise in estrangement for what we would not consider to be legitimate reasons. Yeah. Whether that is in marriage and the whole, you know, no fault, divorce, I just don't love you anymore, or in families where it's just general, you know, disagreement. And to call a spade a spade, as we do, you know, on the podcast is what has really risen to the front is relationships between parents and children over political and moral ideologies. And really it go in both ways. Yeah. You know, you voted for Trump. Well, I don't need to be a part of your life anymore. You didn't vote for Trump. Oh, you can't be a part of my life anymore. And you know, that's that's a very, you know, simplified cliche, you know, but it's real. Like in the last eight plus years, I've seen that dozens of times to one extent or another. And I don't believe, and I'll just go on record for me, that's not a legitimate reason for estrangement. You you can disagree inside of a family, you know, but I don't think that's reason for estrangement. And yet that's what we see more and more and more. And it just complicates things, right? Because now you're having to deal with these issues, some of which are legitimate, and the estrangement is no, there's a reason that we're going through this. And the other is y'all are being dumb. You need to figure this out. And as a counselor, like I'm sure that's a weird thing to walk through as well.
SPEAKER_00Well, and absolutely, you're right. There are times where it is just not healthy to stay in that close proximity of that relationship. There, you know, and and absolutely we want to acknowledge that. There have been times where I've worked with people who have real severe childhood injuries or trauma and they're now adults and their parents were part of that, and they really are just looking for some some kind of reconciliation with the parent to what really happened. And if they can't get that, you know, if the parent won't acknowledge it or, you know, makes light of it or tells like gaslights, you know, that's the word everybody wants to use, that that's not really how it happened, then sometimes it is necessary for your own health and well-being to step back and process those things with a counselor and with a support system. But I love what Chip said yesterday. As Christians, even in those situations, if there ever is an opportunity for that parent at some point down the road to say, I recognize that what I did was hurtful and I'm so sorry, and I want a relationship with you. As a Christian, we really need to try to do the work to get ourselves in a good place where we can try to open that door back up. Yeah. You know, it's not always possible and it's not always practical, but that is really the goal. You know, God says that He gives us the ministry of reconciliation. That is what Jesus came for was to reconcile us back to God. And nobody has been offended more than God by us. You know, and so for us to think that we can't offer that if someone is repentant. Yeah. You know, or absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and I think, you know, that's one thing that when you preach, you know, there's always things that you wish you had said. Sure. And one of the things I wish I had said, because it was in my notes throughout the week, is that, you know, our biggest need as fallen human beings is reconciliation with God because we are estranged from Him through sin. Yeah. However, having a right relationship with God doesn't necessarily automatically make all your other relationships right. Right. You know, you like you say, you have to do work, you have to put in the time. I I I will never forget maybe the first time as a young pastor when that truth, you know, hit me of this isn't for the best, you know, leaving names out and everything. I I was called in as a character witness in a custody hearing. And the other attorney, not with the family who attended our church who had asked me to do this, he I think he thought he had me like cornered up or whatever. And he was like, Well, you know, as a pastor, I'm sure that you believe that it is best for the child to have both parents, you know, equally involved in their life. And it hit me, I mean, it's whatnot, scripted answer. I was like, No, I I wouldn't say that. It depends in entirely on the parent. Yeah. You know, like if that parent is creating an unhealthy and damaging environment for that child, you know, and knowing me, I'm pretty sure what I did is throw out like some kind of extreme example. Like if they're running a crackhouse and the kid's in the middle of it, but in truth, you know, what is best takes out of the equation that we live in a sin-broken world with people broken by sin. And what's best is not always an option for us. So sometimes the options we're left with is it's not best, but it's the best we can do. Yeah. And that's why that estrangement is a thing. But like you say, it should it should break our hearts. We should, the goal is always reconciliation. But sometimes we just can't quite get there, at least right now in this season.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, and that goes back to the verse that you shared yesterday, Romans 12, 18. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Sometimes it's not possible, and sometimes it doesn't just depend on you, because there are two people in a relationship and you're just one of them, right? So the other person has the say too. I do think that there are times where communication, a lack of communication is what can lead to estrangement. I think that sometimes there are situations and problems in families that are not discussed, not talked about. And so one side of that is for that person to continue to carry the hurt that the other person is doing and not taking it as a serious problem and not talking about it. And the other person, because maybe that person's not talking about it, they feel like everything is okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then all of the sudden Just because you're not aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then all of the sudden you kind of get hit with uh, I'm done with your family, I'm done with whatever as a p um a child who becomes an adult and says, I'm done with this relationship, I don't want to, and the parents or whoever, the dynamic is they're shocked. It's like, what do you mean? Yeah. This came out of nowhere. Yeah, this came in out of nowhere. And and on one hand, if there wasn't open dialogue and communication about things, then you know, that that's part of the issue. But on the other hand, if the other, if the person who is offended never shared that, something I've said in counseling, I don't know, and I felt like the Lord just said it in NG Plain style one day out of my mouth because I was like, oh, that was good. I don't know where that came from. Yeah. But I said to somebody, it is not fair to be angry and hold a grudge against someone if you haven't even told them why.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like when you nurse a grudge and you're collecting data to build your case every time the person speaks or acts and they don't even know it. And they may know something's wrong, and they may be even like walking on eggshells a little bit around you. But if they, if you won't tell them what the issue is, like the that's not fair. Yeah. It's it's really not fair.
SPEAKER_03That's good. That's good. So let me let me kind of lean into that in maybe a little bit different direction and get your thoughts on this because this is one you know that I've been hit with. I think it's cliche to say there's fault on both sides. It's cliche because it's true. True, right? But but it is a little bit cliche. Yeah. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that always in an estranged relationship that both sides are equally wrong. True. You know? So we talk about, you know, when somebody does air their, you know, grievances or offenses, and the other side says, oh, you know, I'm sorry, I'm going to do better, whatever, that we want to keep the door open for that relationship, right? Because reconciliation's the goal. How do you handle it when that offending party continues to say yes, yes, yes, and yet the actions never change? Like, how do you keep a door open then? Because okay, if they come back again and say, okay, this time is gonna be different, do you do you how do you still keep that door open? Like what does that look like? Because at some point it's like you've said that the last 10 times and nothing's changed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I love that question. And I'll tell you why, because in counseling, a lot of times when people come in, they want to relate to me the last argument. And so one of the tools that I use with them is to have them redo the argument. Like, let's start it again. Say what you said.
SPEAKER_03So you're saying part of counseling can be causing fights because now I'm feeling more like I could be a counselor.
SPEAKER_00Well, but no, but okay, what sh what could you have said different there? And what did you need to hear in that moment to understand where they were trying to come from and things like that? So when somebody says in a situation like this, oh, I'll do it different next time. I'm sorry, I won't do that. Okay, well, let's talk about what different's gonna look like. Yeah, that's good. Let's practice different. Let's let's have it, let's, and uh you may feel silly, you know, because we're adults and we're role-playing and we're doing all that. But listen, we've got to, whatever you practice is what you get better at. Yeah. And if you get if you practice being judgmental and condemning and you're gonna get better at that. Yeah. And if you practice justifying yourself and blaming somebody else, you're gonna get better at that. But if you practice humbling yourself and practicing hearing what your family member or whoever is saying, yeah, and trying to understand where they're coming from, I say be curious instead of being judgmental and be curious. Why are they, why do they feel that way? Yeah. Why are they seeing it that way? Help me understand and then practice, okay, what could I have said different? What did I need to hear different, depending on which side you're on? Yeah. And practice that. And if you can't do that just one-on-one, go find somebody that can help you with that, a counselor, a good friend that you trust as a couple or a family or whatever to help you practice that communication. That's the thing that makes all the difference. Yeah. Is the communication back to the 12-year-olds. Yeah. So funny story, they got those two girls that I was telling you about, they got into a little tift after that. And one of them looked at the other one and said, We got to stop. They're gonna make us go back to the boat ramp. That's hilarious. Is that funny? I'm like, absolutely make them go back to the boat ramp. Let's pitch a tent there until we get this figured out.
SPEAKER_03So anyway, that's hilarious. So, all right, I'm gonna put I'm gonna push in a little bit further here. Okay. Same scenario. Okay. Okay. But less time, let's just put it in the context of, say, two spouses. One spouse continues to cheat on the other one. They cheat. I'm so sorry, not gonna do it again. The other spouse who has been cheated on, if they choose to separate whatever, at what point is it? And I guess what I'm talking about is almost what we talked about yesterday. Like, I don't want this, but it's the only choice I'm left. But because what I'm getting at is that that spouse keeps, you know, making the same decisions over and over and over, whether it be cheating or, you know, abuse or whatever. I think it it always seems like the person who says, No, I need to step back from this. This isn't healthy. They're the bad guy because we live in a culture where everybody's so good at playing the victim because they say, Oh, I wanted to, I was willing to, I was, I was gonna change. And yet you see a repeated pattern of behavior. I think one of the tensions is, okay, like, well, how do we handle that? Like, do we say, yeah, I guess because you say you're willing to change, we keep working on it? Or at some point, does your behavior say, I I mean, I hear what you're saying. You may even believe what you're saying, but history is telling me something different. Like, I don't know. It it that hit me because frankly, I was hit with a question like that afterwards about, hey, I feel I'm feeling a little bit guilty because they say they want this, and yet I don't see where it happens because the last 87 times we've tried it, it still went back to where it was.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So in that situation, when someone says, I'm sorry that this happened, I I don't want this to happen again, in that moment, they do mean it because they want their family, they want the relationship, they don't want a divorce for whatever the reason is. Maybe the reason's financial, maybe the reason is they don't want to tear up their family. Yeah. But when that becomes something that is forgiven and then it goes back into the same behavior again, what you're dealing with there is the difference between caring and change. Because caring is a feeling. It doesn't require anything. Like, yes, you care. Yes, you care that our family's about to be destroyed. Yes, you care that I'm upset about this, yes, you care that, but caring doesn't cost you anything. That's good. Change takes consistent effort. And my counsel for a situation like that would always be I've got to see change, and you have to go over there because you can't stay here and continue to tell me that you're gonna change. You've got to go over here and I've got to see you change because what happens when someone is a habitual cheater, for lack of a better way to say it, is that they know all the manipulative things to say, especially if the one who's cheated on is a Christian. I've had people tell me before, well, they say I can't divorce them because I'm a Christian. And I'm like, well, did they read the part about adultery in there? Because you don't get to just pick and choose which way. Because actually, if you're looking at that, the scripture does allow if there's infidelity for divorce. And so that's, you know, you can't pull that out and say that. But if you're gonna change, there has to be a consequence to the choice that you made, to the pain that you caused. And that pain is that you're separated from us because that's what your action said when you chose to commit adultery, is that you were separate from me. You weren't married to me in your heart when you committed adultery. And so that's the consequence. If that's the choice you made, that's how you get to live separate from me. Now, if you want to live separate from me and change and stay faithful to this marriage, then we can begin counseling. We can begin, you know, with some boundaries that you respect. What often happens when that separation happens is if that person is not willing to change, they will immediately find somebody else to be with. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I always say boundaries, and sometimes people have a hard time with that. They're like, well, if they move out, they're not gonna be faithful. Well, they're not being faithful while they're living here. So which one would you prefer? And so with that, if that's the choice, the boundary just exposed it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I think that's good. And I think that the boundary, you know, is the helpful part there because again, last time we'll go back to the scenario, okay, now it's not a spouse with infidelity the issue. It's a parent that has chosen estrangement from their child because of continued substance abuse, bringing that home, wrecking the home with a parent, you know, but it's the same situation. Yeah. I know you feel bad about it, I know you care, but at some point you leave us with no choices to do this. And and in fairness, the the person who came to me, it wasn't a spousal relationship, it was a parent-child relationship that was different what I'm describing. But you know, the the principle is the same. It is like sometimes, you know, uh when estrangement is the only choice that you're left with, I love I love that. It's not that you need to see that you care, it's that you need to see change. Yeah. And you can see change while you're estranged from someone. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And that puts the the consequence in place that either they want to do the hard work and change or they don't. And they get to choose that. Yeah. You know, that's the hard part of it for the other person is you don't control that.
SPEAKER_03They get to choose it. That's good. So lean into that then, Angie, about the boundaries and how they're they're helpful. Because I think that's a really good way to put it. They're either going to be helpful in that they bring healing, but they're going to be helpful in that they show you, hey, this is broken and here's why.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So when you think about estrangement like grief, we talked about how they, you know, can kind of overlap a little bit because of course there's grief, the feelings that you have when, especially if you're on the involuntary side of it, that that someone tells you, I don't want to talk to you, don't contact me, I don't, you know, anything. The first thing that happens is that you go in shock, probably if you have no idea. Yeah. And then you get angry, much like with grief. You there's an anger there that you're thinking, are you kidding me? You know, especially in a marriage or a parent child, like I've poured into life with you and I've, you know, sacrificed things for you, and you're just done with me. Like, how does, you know, so it's like a disbelief and there's a confusion about understanding how we got here and what happened. And I think sometimes that can go into despair of mourning the loss. And Chip touched on that in the sermon that sometimes estrangement is more difficult than death because you still have to see that person living life on Facebook or whatever it is, you know, or hearing about them from other people. And so running into them at the grocery store. Absolutely. And so there's a despair, a deep, a deep sadness, a grieving, and that probably flip-flops back and forth between that grief and then that anger. Because then some days you just wake up and you're mad, you know, about it. But where the boundaries come into play there is the third step or third stage is acceptance. And there's an acceptance of either, and sometimes this is the case, either I can allow this relationship on their terms, which may be completely unhealthy for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and oftentimes I see that happen a time or two before a person's willing to set a boundary and say, this, I can't do this anymore. They allow them to come back and forth and they continue the behavior because there's no consequence, right? And so that acceptance of coming to terms with, you know, I cannot do this relationship on their terms. It is not healthy for me. It's not healthy, not just for me, but all of the other relationships in my life. Yeah. When one relationship takes away the joy and the focus of every other relationship and every other good thing in your life, then you know that there is some toxicity there. And so that acceptance comes, then we put some boundaries up. Hopefully, that that's maybe the place where we understand there's gotta be some boundaries. And then the transformation, then that stage can come where there is personal growth, where we focus back on I can't fix that, but here's what I can do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And in that, you can learn how to open a door for reconciliation as long as the boundaries are respected and there is health. And and we've got to be careful with boundaries because a lot of times people want to use boundaries as punishment or to control the behavior of the other person. That is not what boundaries are intended. You know, if you think about God, the greatest example of a boundary that God gives us is he offers forgiveness to everyone. The Bible says whosoever. But the only people who get God's forgiveness are the ones who repent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's his boundary. You don't get into heaven without repenting. You don't get eternal life without repenting. Does God love you? Absolutely. Does he want you to? Absolutely. But if you choose to continue to live in your sin, you can, but you can't come where he is. And if that, I mean, that is our uh model to live by, you know, with that, but God is always for us. He's not using that boundary. I'm gonna keep you out of heaven, you know, I'm gonna show you. That's never God's heart. And if we're gonna be like Jesus, that has to be our heart too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So so how would you encourage someone or coach, counsel someone to begin setting up boundaries in a relationship, but not in a way that they're punitive or manipulative, but in a way that, like you say, points to reconciliation. How do you even go about that process?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I think, you know, first of all, we've got to examine our own heart and our motives for what really is happening. Is this, if this is on our side, if we're the ones that are voluntarily putting the estrangement in place, we've got to ask ourselves why?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like, why is this? Is this because I'm trying to control their behavior? Is this because this really is a toxic relationship?
SPEAKER_03Pause because I got to ask this. I've thought it like three times. And so if I if I've thought it, figure might better ask it. All right. So we say, and I said Sunday, not to necessarily try to control their behavior, but yet that is part of what boundaries are trying to do. How do you delineate between I'm trying to control your behavior, but you need to live with inside these boundaries?
SPEAKER_00So the difference there is that when I'm putting a boundary in place, the consequence for that you're gonna receive for that boundary is hopefully motivation for you to change your heart. I'm not trying to just make you change your behavior. Okay. To like fake it or act it. You know, we we tell kids all the time, you better act right. You better act right. Well, no, we want your heart to be right so that you want to behave well, not to pretend to act a certain way when your heart is not right. And that's the difference, is that I'm not trying to control somebody's behavior so that just when they're around me, they act a certain way, but they're really not connected or loyal to the relationship or or whatever. They're just acting a certain way in front of me. I'm saying I care, I'm saying I want this back. But then when your back's turned, I'm doing the other thing. But the the hope for boundaries is that it motivates that person's heart to change to see the good that can come when a relationship is healthy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's good. That's good. And when you said consequences there, I think what I'm thinking is that I'm not telling you what you have to do. Yeah. I'm just telling you what I'm going to do. Absolutely. Based on your choices. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03So okay. I I think that I think that's good. So didn't mean to to throw you off about, you know, how we establish those boundaries. So so keep going. How how do how do we then, you know, start establishing those boundaries?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think communication. Oh, as you're talking about, you have to communicate. Yeah. Yeah. So I think first place to start is examine your heart. You know, David constantly in the Psalms said, God, search my heart and see if there is any way in me that is, you know, opposed to your word and and my motives. You know, I want to understand what my motives are for this. And that can be even if if you're the one instigating or if you're the one who continues to allow a person to come back in on their terms. Like, Lord, this is it's painful. And it's it doesn't, it's not working in the dynamic of our whole family. Yeah. And so how do I, you know, how do I draw a boundary here where I can, if I'm gonna have a relationship, I want it to be healthy. Yeah. And I can't carry all of the responsibility for this relationship. The other person has to carry some of it. Yeah. And they have to want to. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Literally, as you're talking, I'm I'm envisioning like if I was in this situation, I'm such a uh a visual learner, like literally writing out like pros, cons, what are the things like, but but also having that time with God of like, all right, God, like search my heart as he's searching, writing it down to saying, all right, what is a a good boundary, a healthy boundary that again can get to that reconciliation. Just as you were talking, that's what was going through my mind. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so understanding that, that part of it, and then trying to have communication. Yeah. And you know, I always think about the scripture, I think it's in Matthew, that talks about church discipline. And it says, if somebody's offended you, go to them. Yeah. Don't go to the other 14 people who were there and not that person, and go to them and try to discuss that. And in that realm, always be willing to listen more than you talk. Yeah. You know, if someone has offended you, go and you can say, you know, I I was really hurt by this. I'm trying to understand where that came from. It very easily could have just been that you misunderstood or you took something personally that they weren't intending that way. It could have been a careless word that got thrown out there. But if there was a real offense there, go to that person and find out where was where did that come from? Yeah. You know, did I do something to initiate that? Are you are you collecting offenses that I've done that I don't know about? Yeah. And so being able to listen to that, what I've found in some of the situations that I've run into with people is that that's where the the barrier happens, is that very often the person who's asking for estrangement won't communicate. And I feel like sometimes when that is the case, the motive almost always is control. If you're not willing to communicate, now let me pause that to say if there has been abuse or things like that where you don't feel safe, really, not just they're gonna hurt my feelings, but where you don't feel safe, that's not what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But if you're not willing to communicate your reasons for estrangement, you're not really interested in reconciliation and you really are just trying to control. I I think a lot of times in families, sometimes with insecurities, if one person makes another person feel insecure, instead of that person dealing with their insecurity, they just avoid being around that person and kind of blame them for the way they feel. That's very common in our culture. And I I see it happening a lot with with in-laws and with like extended family. Okay. Yeah. And so that's that's another thing. Like we got to own our own stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00If we're gonna have relationships, we've got to look at what we're bringing to the table and try to figure out how to bring some healthy stuff to the table if we want to have healthy relationships and recognize that our our insecurities are not somebody else's problem to fix. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's good. I think, you know, Leanne and I were talking kind of about this topic and you know, this series, and and what we really got talking about is the difference in the way generations view family. Like, you know, bonded by blood, this is our duty, nothing breaks family no matter what, versus younger generations saying blood isn't everything. If you're gonna, you know, not bring happiness, joy, fulfillment, health, you know, to my immediate family or my life, then I don't have to be a part of this. Yeah. And we are talking about that. And it's funny you mentioned, you know, maybe more distant family is because I told Leanne, I said, I don't know that I'm not like both and guy there because I feel like with that, you know, immediate core family, it's like, yeah, this, this is family, you know, we're not going anywhere, we're gonna be whatever. But some of that more extended family, it's like, yeah, if it's just not helping me and it's a drag and it's, you know, whatever, then I don't feel as obligated to be there. I don't think that necessarily means estrangement as much as distance, you know, sometimes. But, you know, it was funny we're talking about that, and and it's almost like there are two different categories, right? Like, you know, there's the hey, this is immediate family, it's commitment, it's not it, nothing's changing it. And then the other is, well, how far do we take this with you know, extended family or with friends or with co workers, you know? And I that that just kind of started the ball rolling in my mind about okay, is there a point that we say, yeah, I I could care less about estrangement right here or about reconciliation here? I just don't need the drop.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I have a I have a thought about that chip that I'll see if I can express it well. So I think that the two different generational things that you're talking about, they're very connected. And this is what I mean. So I think that the family blood at all cost, there was so much hidden lack of communication where people suffered in silence, but they had to show up for their family. And so the next generation saw that. You know, I saw that. My my mom, so big story here. My mom was one of 12 children. Oh wow. Seems like a lot. Yeah, seems like a lot. And they were very close knit and they were expected to always show up for each other. They grew up poor, you know, hard. And so there was that connection of showing up for each other, but not really ever talking about, well, that one treated me this way, or this one stepped over any kind of semblance of a boundary or whatever. And so the next generation saw that, that there the pendulum was way over here with blood at all costs. We don't deal with any issues. You don't talk about weird uncle, whatever, you know, all the things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We just called them black sheep.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yes. But when they showed up, you fixed them a plate and you did all the things, right? And nobody ever called them on their behavior. But with the next generation watching that, that pendulum swung so far the other way to say I'm not putting up with any of that. Weird uncle so-and-so, he can stay at his house. He's not coming to my house. That the lack of communication and dealing with healthy boundaries and dealing with unhealthy behaviors in one generation really propagated that pendulum to swing so far the next generation to say, I'm not dealing with anything. 100%. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think that's good. And I think that, again, me critiquing both sides here is number one, obviously the my happiness, my fulfillment, that that's a terrible way to live life, honestly, if that's the only filter you have for life. It's a terrible way to live life. But on the other hand, I feel like the family duty at all cost, which may be even more, you know, heightened in the southern fried south, right? It almost creates a license to just do or say whatever you want because, well, we're family. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I think that I've seen that in some cases where, well, because it is, you know, blood sticker than water, you know, then I I can say act, treat however I want because you can't get rid of me, you know. And and so I do think that all these things are are super, super complicated and just make these issues all that much more sticky.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think about in John, first John 1, he talks about us being children of light, walking in, but we walk in darkness if we're not careful. And I think sometimes we don't even recognize as Christians that we could be walking in darkness. And I was at a conference recently where this was being taught the the whole darkness and being children of light and stuff. And there was a question asked that are you walking in darkness? And I my first answer was no, I'm a Christian. I'm a, you know, but he was talking to Christians. Yeah. And I thought, I don't know. What does it mean to walk in darkness? And so as I started thinking about that, I remembered when my daughter was in college at FSU, up near, up near Tallahassee, and I can't remember exactly where it is, but there's a there's caverns that you can go in. And you may have been in different ones, other places, but it's a cave thing that you go in. And they close the door. And when I tell you it is dark, dark, yeah, you cannot see your hand an inch in front of your face. It's dark, dark. But here's the thing about darkness: if you are walking in that kind of darkness, the only thing you have awareness of is yourself. That's the only thing you can feel, process, think about, because you can't see anybody else, you can't think about anybody else. Because my my first reaction, my daughter was with me, and my first thing when they went dark like that, I went to looking for her hand. Like I need somebody to hold on to here. It is dark. But that was something to me that when I'm in a situation where I am only thinking about myself, I'm in darkness. And because the scripture goes on to say there that when we walk in darkness, if we say that we have fellowship with God, but we hate our brother, we are walking in darkness and we are not in fellowship with God. And so again, it goes back to the boundary. It's not to say that you allow yourself to be in harmful or abusive or hurtful situations. But if we're gonna be followers of Christ, reconciliation should always be our goal. And if we're walking in light, we should be looking for ways and trying to see the ways that God provides for us to reconcile.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so we can't just say, well, I gotta look out for me and mine, because the Bible says, well, if you're doing that, you're walking in darkness and you don't have fellowship with God. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's, you know, it that's what I really like about this series is none of if these issues were just cut and dry issues, then we wouldn't need to talk about them as much. Yes, yes. So one one more thing, talking about estrangement, you know, and I said this in the message, and I I think it's true that when you're walking through this, I think there's a good chance it's accompanied by feelings of like shame and guilt. So you don't want to talk about it with other people. Right. What would you say to somebody who is kind of battling that, but like the shame and guilt do keep it like bottled up? Like how how would you what what would you encourage someone who's walking in that?
SPEAKER_00So on my notes, I wrote in capital letters, do not keep it a secret. Do not, because it will eat you alive from the inside out. Do not keep it a secret. Find a support system. Find some people that you can pray. In our in our area, I think, especially people who are church members and you know, established families that people know are Christian, when they go through especially estrangement for with a child, they're embarrassed, they feel like it reflects on their parenting, you know, whatever, and they don't want to tell anybody. And so they may go for a long time and not have any contact with this child, but nobody around them knows it and they are just suffering alone. But when we bring the again, when we bring things into the light, yeah, and we let God have a hold of that, and we invite trusted people into our circle to pray for us, to pray with us, to encourage us, to remind us that your children are adults, they're making their own decisions, you know, and maybe you weren't perfect, heck, none of us were as a parent, but you you did the best you could in the moment with what was presented to you and you loved your children, and maybe there are some things that you need to go back and revisit and you know, apologize for or try to reconcile with that if you have the opportunity. If not, you have to move on with life and through prayer, through encouragement from other people and establish because one of the things that we don't realize, I think, is that when people go through estrangement, especially from the involuntary side, like they didn't want it, they didn't ask for it. They actually have researched that people who go through that can experience symptoms much like a PTSD with a war veteran. Really? Yeah. And here are some of the symptoms. Well, number one is a hyper arousal where they can't sleep because the mind is just playing over and over the last time we've talked, or the when did I say something that could have hurt them? They're just replaying and torturing themselves. It's a PTSD, it's called intrusive thoughts. The other thing is there's an emotional numbing that can happen over time with that if you're not dealing with it and processing, especially if you're trying to keep it hidden, you have avoidance behaviors. You avoid going out with people that are doing things you used to enjoy because you're carrying this big load of grief. And all of that can look like a PTSD that we think, well, how in the world would somebody just telling me they didn't want anything to do with me anymore compared to someone who's been in war? But that ripping away of an attachment to a family member, whether it's marriage or a child or, you know, a close friend, even, that's a traumatic emotional wound. And we don't see it like that in our culture. We're we're we kind of tend to more like, you know, with our pride or whatever, like, well, if they don't want to hang around me, I don't want to hang around them. Yeah. But the truth is, emotionally, that is a traumatic wound that is that's ripped away. And that all of those symptoms of that PTSD really do can happen. And we don't, you know, we think, well, they're not like hitting the ground when a car backfires or whatever, but it's the hyperarousal, the not resting, the avoidance behaviors, the emotional numbing. And there's also elevated risk of depression, anxiety, because when we suppress all of those feelings and we're not talking about them or dealing with them, it dysregulates our nervous system. And that in turn then begins to cause physical illnesses. You know, stress. We know that stress causes high blood pressure and all of those things, but physical illnesses and a lot of autoimmune, you know, stuff can begin to happen.
SPEAKER_01So it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And neuroscience, this was something I just saw yesterday, that neuroscience research is showing now that family rejection activates the same brain region as physical pain. Really? That when we are rejected by a family member, that we had close relationship, it affects that same area of our brain that registers when something hurts us physically.
SPEAKER_03I can believe it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And so when when we're thinking about going through that, it it's real. It's painful. And keeping it a secret, and I think that is such a tactic of the enemy too, to keep things in the dark, because that's where he likes to operate and heap on that guilt and shame. And God tells us to, you know, his grace, his mercy is new every day. And that grace for us, that yes, you might not have been perfect friend, daughter, you know, mom, whatever it spouse, but there is grace and there is always room to grow and mature in in God's kingdom. There's always room for that. And so that begin that begins our journey for self-growth, for moving forward, yeah. And not allowing ourselves to get stuck in that grief.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, that's so good.
SPEAKER_01Man, that was really good. Is there anything else you'd want to add or, you know, share with our listeners before we kind of end this conversation?
SPEAKER_00Um I think that if you are a friend or, you know, someone who sees someone walking through that, or if someone confides in you that they're walking through that, the first thing I would say is let them talk about that loved one. Let them let them talk about them because especially if they've kept it a secret, they haven't been. They've maybe even been avoiding it, like that avoidance issue we talked about, and let them talk, ask questions about that loved one. I want to hear if if a parent is talking to me about their estranged child, I want to hear about when they were a baby or a child and bring up, you know, and it's hurtful, it's hard because it hurts, but it's healing because it gets that unstuck to start letting them talk, pray with them, remind them that with God, all things are possible. Yeah. And then encourage them to continue to hope, but to move forward. Don't stay stuck. Continue to move forward. Go and do things with your friends, go and participate in ministry, serve, yeah, find places to serve to help other people.
SPEAKER_03Kind of like Paul said, you know, in in all things, learn to be content.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, I mean, it doesn't mean that you have to love it, but this is the season that you are in now, and you gotta learn how to live in that season.
SPEAKER_00One of the things too, and this was a result of a a conference that I was in with a different area of ministry, but I brought this back to a couple that I was working with whose child was estranged from them. She was in her 20s and and they were heartbroken over this. But one of the things I encourage them to do with the hope that they would reconcile with her is to get a box. In fact, I bought a box at the dollar store, just a pretty little decorated box. And when you are really missing her or and you're feeling these feelings that things you want to say to her, write it down and put it in the box. Okay. And if you see something that reminds you that, oh, they would love that and you want to buy it, buy it and put it in the box. Okay. And if you ever get the chance to reconcile, you have just caught up years of that's so good. And what a tangible blessing, to show them. And love them. And if you don't, if you don't get to, it's still a place to put it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because that's what we're missing, is a place to put tangible expressions of our emotions for for that person that we miss. You know, and so I think that is uh a very healthy for especially for people who are visual, who likes objects. I love that. Yeah. So that is a very um helpful tool that we can use. I love that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's that that's really good. I think that, you know, the one thing that I would want people to hear is that if you haven't already figured it out, this is far more common than you may feel like. Yeah. And when you keep it hidden, it can also just leave you in isolation, feeling unique. Oh, nobody knows, nobody understands.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, just statistics tell us. Yeah. Yeah, they do, you know, people know and understand. And I think knowing that other people are walking through this and have walked through this brings a little hope in itself. So I think that's even another way to, you know, move forward is like, hey, get it out there, find community. It's a different kind of community, but but it's a community. So I think that that's really helpful. And that that's really good advice from Angie and I love the box. That's that's really cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Well, so Angie, thank you so much for being here with us today. And just understanding estrangement through a biblical lens. If someone listens to this podcast and they want to connect with you, what is the best way for them to do that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I work for Lafayette Baptist Association and they can go online and find the the contact information for there. Probably one of the best ways is to email me. Okay. And that's landang4 at gmail.com. Okay. If they have questions about what we've talked about, or if they just like to, you know, like to schedule an appointment to talk about you know what they're going through. That's, you know, we don't we don't really have like advertisements out. It's kind of word of mouth and stuff, but we're we just cherish what whoever God sends for us to minister to and count it a blessing that we're able. And and we also know our limitations there. And if there are deeper issues that need to be addressed, then you know, I refer people out to counselors who are specialized in other areas. Okay. Beyond what, you know, what my my area is. Awesome. That awesome.
SPEAKER_01Well, again, thank you so much. And yeah, we just hope and pray that this, yeah, this podcast would be edifying to you. And like Chip and Miss Angie both said, if you're having these feelings, get it out in the light. Find someone you can talk to. And then obviously you can always reach out to us at the church as well, and we can put you in contact with Miss Angie. But again, don't walk through it alone. You have a community around you that wants to that wants to help. Well, this is all for this episode, and we will catch you guys next week. Have a good week. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Let's Talk About That. We hope it encouraged and challenged you as we continue to grow on this journey of faith and embrace community together. If you have more questions, thoughts, or feedback, we want to hear from you. Be sure to reach out to us through our social media or visit our website to stay connected. If you found today's discussion meaningful, don't forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review. Until next time, we hope that this episode inspired you and will keep Sunday's message at the front of your mind. See you next week.