Ep. 125 | Hero + Rescue | ft. Pastor Matt Pennington

In today's episode, Astin Kahnk is joined by Pastor Matt Pennington for a conversation about our "Storyline" sermon series. Listen in as they discuss the topic of "Hero + Rescue" and explore how Jesus is the hero in the story.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The gospel writers, all four of them are pointing us to a very specific conclusion. And that is that the God of heaven stepped down out of heaven, wrapped himself in human flesh, and he came to our rescue. And he came to our rescue at the expense of his own life. And in Luke's gospel, I think it's Luke 14, he tells us to count the cost. Following Jesus is not just an intellectual decision that we make, it's a full-blown surrender at the feet of Jesus. That's the point, is that Jesus tells us it will be costly, but what he tells us is it is worth the cost. Whoever loses his life for my sake will gain it.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

And so I think that's the hope that I would give you is that these are not my words. These are Jesus' words. And what Jesus is telling us is that yes, there is a great price, but what you gain in me is far greater than anything that you could ever give up.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Welcome to Let's Talk About That, the podcast where we deep dive into Sunday's message and explore your questions. I'm your host, Aston Kank, and I'm excited to share this journey with you. Whether you're a longtime member of The Orchard or a first-time visitor, Let's Talk About That is your space to explore, reflect, and connect. Join us as we navigate the intricacies of faith, spirituality, and daily life, seeking to understand how the wisdom shared on Sundays can be applied to our modern challenges. So, grab a cup of coffee, find a comfortable space, and let's dive in together. This is Let's Talk About That, where the conversation about Sunday's message never stops. Well, welcome back to Let's Talk About That. I am sitting across from our Live Oak Location pastor, Matt, who is here chatting with us today. Matt, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

It's going. Uh we have a, I guess a six-week old now. So you can imagine how it's going. But uh and the other three that also we have. So yeah, you can imagine how it's going.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yep. I I feel you look a little tired today, but I'm kind of right there, right there with you. But we're in the trenches, but it's good.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

I think it's also, I mean, obviously, kids, like kids are just it's exhausting. It's rewarding. Yes. It's rewarding. Hear me say that. But I mean, if you're a parent, you know how it is in the trenches. But it's also this time of the year. Yeah. I don't know. It's a weird. I've heard May Simber. I heard that too. And I don't know if it's just like kids are over it, you know, because school's almost out, testing's over, all that stuff. But I think also it always, even when I was a student pastor, from January to May just feels like a marathon. Yeah. In the I think in the fall, you have so many different breaks. You have, you know, you have like the the fall period, and you have Thanksgiving break and then Christmas break. And it just feels like it's a little bit more broken up, but it always feels like a marathon. And I think it's it's May is busy, but it's also by the time you get to May, it's busy and you're wore out. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

So yeah, because really, yeah, January to end the school year, it's spring break, is really the only time you have, you know, you have Good Friday off, but that's pretty much it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

So I think this time of the year, in addition to having little kids and stuff, it's just yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

You're on the you're on the struggle bus.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yep, we are. But we're making it, we're surviving.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

It's it's good, it's good. So yeah, so we are week three of our five-week sermon series, and it has been so, so good. Even it's challenged me as someone who has read my Bible and been a believer for, you know, a minute now, more than a minute. But especially when it came to like just reading the Old Testament. I think so many times we can get hung up on what's happening, but remembering that, yeah, Jesus is the storyline of it all.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yeah, and I think sometimes it's just really good to zoom out. It gives you some perspective, you know. If you're like me, you grew up in and around the church, like you it's kind of an ingrained in you of like, hey, you should read your Bible, read your Bible. Yeah. And 100%, yes. But I think sometimes hearing it so often just kind of is like, oh, it's just a daily checklist, you know. And and it's good, I think, to zoom out and see the storyline of the Bible, to see number one, the intentionality that none of this is random. Yeah. That there is a a God in heaven who orchestrated this plan of redemption, which is fun. Some of the fun of reading the Old Testament is all the ways in which God's promise of redemption was threatened.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Such as Joseph. You know, everybody knows the story of Joseph, but the big picture of Joseph, even zooming out in his life, is that there was a famine in the land that threatened the existence of the nation that God promised Abraham, you know, and and God divinely orchestrates it through the life of Joseph, where not only does it work out for Joseph, but it works out for his entire family. Yeah. You know, so I think it's just been a really fun series, challenging. I will say, from a communication standpoint, it's been it's been pretty challenging because you're you're condensing the entire Bible into five weeks. Yeah, into five weeks, yeah. And so it's been a little bit of a challenge there because there's so much, right? And you you can't cover everything. So you intentionally have to leave out some things. And so the challenge of the series has been what do I have to communicate?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

And what do I not want to leave out? But I don't really have a choice. Yeah, but that's been fun.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

You guys have teed it up well though, to where, especially when it came to last week when we talked about the Old Testament and you know, the shadows and sacrifice, to where it even encouraged me to go back and start reading even some of those harder books of the Bible that just seem like a doozy to read, and but all right, like now you have these like this lens of where do I see Jesus? And you have the different types, you have the shadows and everything that kind of like basically shows you who Jesus is. So I know it even challenged me in that regard.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah, and I think the the language that we use and chip, I know you guys talked about last week through patterns, promises, and presence. I think that's a really, really good handle to kind of help us make sense of the old testament. I mean, it's easy to get lost in the old testament, you know, especially when you start reading through everybody talks about Leviticus, but numbers. Yes, you know, it's numbers is the one that's like, whoo, it's just a bunch of people, like I can't pronounce these names. And there's just a bunch of like, I don't know why this is here. Yeah, you know, but when you zoom out, you see that this is God's plan of redemption being fulfilled because he made a promise to Abraham that through you I will make you into a great nation, but also through this nation, all nations will be blessed, you know. And so it is a little tedious to read through, but if you zoom out and see the storyline, you see how God uses all of that. And there was a nation through which the Messiah was born, yeah, you know, as the son of David. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

So yeah, no, so good. So this Sunday's message was titled Hero and Rescue. And I know for a lot of us, we've grown up watching superhero movies. When we think about a superhero, we think of someone who has this superhuman strength, they fight crime, you know, they battle villains. But Jesus, as we know it, is a hero of the Bible, and he's quite the opposite. We could honestly say he's an unconventional hero.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Let's can I stop you real quick?

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

All right. So what would be your favorite movie? Oh, super movie, or just hero movie, you know. I think a lot of times we think of superheroes, but those are those are definitely fiction as far as like you could have a superpower. Yeah, but hero, superhero, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 7:00

I would say just like the superhero, like the Marvel movies. I think those are kind of just a watch. Any of those. I'm not a big movie person. I'm not. My husband is. Like, I like to watch a movie one time and I'm good. He will watch his favorite movies over and over and over. So yeah, yeah, I like. Yeah, what about you? What's your fave?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

So very obvious for me, and I actually use this in the message, but Gladiator. Never seen that movie. Unreal.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

And I when you and Robert were like stop the podcast cut. We'll try again. No, Robert used that reference as well in his sermon, and I, you know, listened to the online message as it's being recorded, and I did not catch it. And then I was like, I'm gonna go home and watch it this weekend, and didn't make time to do it.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Well, you need to make time to do it. I think for me, it's number one, I just love like that era of history. Okay. The Roman you know, outside of like the biblical, the pagan side of the Roman Empire, right? Yeah that aside, yes, I understand all that. But I'm just saying, like, just the the thought of Rome, yeah, and like the the city, the architecture. I mean, we're talking about this was built over 2,000 years ago, and people still travel today just to see the ruins. Yeah, you know what I mean? So like just and the fact that there are still something that resembles it, it's just you know, just I think just the scale of like you know, I can't imagine that with modern technology and machinery, and they're doing it, you know, yeah, chiseling out of marble and stuff. So I think that is cool. And so I love the movie because it's set in that era. Okay, but I've always ever since I was a little kid, it's like and uh the script is intentional that like you fall in love with the hero of the story. Yeah. And it's as a kid, I remember being like conflicted of like everybody loves Maximus, he's the hero. Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

I'm clearing that up.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

But to spoil the movie, is he ends up basically sacrificing his life to save the Roman Republic. Okay, is kind of the plot of the story. But it's like at the end of the story, I mean, you're like on the verge of tears as they carry his lifeless body out of the Coliseum. And I remember thinking, even as a kid, like I watched the movie and I'm like, and yet so many people spit in the face of Jesus. You know, like like this movie is proof that you love the hero who stands for what is right and who sacrifices his love. Like, no greater love is there than this. Yeah, someone who would sacrifice their life. And so, anyway, I just remember even as a kid, I'm like, everybody loves Maximus, everybody loves the movie, like it's a very obvious hero. Yeah. And yet in our world today, is like people spit in the face of Jesus. The parallels are are so close. Yeah. What's the difference? But I know that we're gonna get there is because there Jesus doesn't always Jesus isn't by default the hero of our story. Yeah, it is really where it comes down to. But I know we're gonna get there. So anyway, but yeah, Gladiator is by far my probably my favorite hero movie. Okay. So watch it.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah, I'm putting on my movie list for uh for a travel. But yeah, so let's uh go back and talk about so Jesus is quite the opposite of the heroes we think about. So let's let's dive a little bit into that of like what does this look like?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

So there's so much we can say, yeah, right? On the one hand is is Jesus isn't like the over-the-top fictional superhero like we see in the movies where you know he has super speed or you know, whatever, right? Like all the the different characters that are known for. But on the other hand, I do think the gospels make it very clear that there's something different about Jesus. Yes. And so you see that in the way that he taught, the things that he taught. One of the things that we brought out in the message in Libok, I don't know if the other guys did or not, but at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, right? So one of the famous teachings of Jesus, three chapters in Matthew, the summary of that chapter is when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at his teaching. Yeah. And then Matthew tells us the reason they were astonished is because he was teaching them like no, like one who had authority and not like their scribes. And so I think even in that, right, is is that Jesus shows up. And even to take a step back, let's just take a step back. So last week we talked about the Old Testament, and the way we kind of bridged it, or at least I bridged it in this message was I physically took my Bible and it's like, okay, we're we're making sense of the entire story of the Bible. So I want you to imagine you're going through your U version plan and you're reading through the Bible in a year or whatever, and you flip the last page of Malachi. And so now in your Bible, there's usually always a blank page between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Now that blank page represents real people, real history, 400 years actually. And yet the very next thing that we see at the conclusion of the Old Testament is we flip our page and we see these words at the top of the page, the gospel, according to Matthew. And we know because we're familiar with the Bible, that those first four books are all known as the gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. But that word gospel means good news. And the Romans actually used it. So the Bible writers did not invent the word Ewangelion, which is the Greek word for gospel or good news, is that it was actually in use in the Roman Empire. Okay. And they used it in three ways. They used it to announce a birth, they used it to announce a rise to power, okay, and they used it to make a proclamation of peace, usually at the expense of subduing the enemies or the rebellion or whatever in the empire. And so it's fascinating to me that this word used by the Romans was either like a birth announcement, and that would be like an heir to the throne. You know, if Caesar had a son, they would announce it to the empire. They have good news, Caesar had a son, you know, or whatever, or a rise to power, you know, that could be like a tyrannical ruler has been defeated or overthrown, and so someone has risen to power, which brings stability and peace, or, you know, whatever. But after the entire Old Testament that we talked about in week two, all the shadows, all the pointing to this plan of redemption, pointing to the one who would come, the promise of the Messiah, and you turn that page in your Bible, and all of a sudden somebody shows up on the scene. Yeah. And it's fascinating because the gospels, at least Matthew and Luke, begin with a birth announcement made by the angel to Joseph or to Mary or to the shepherds. And then the rest of the gospels are basically Jesus' rise to power. But a rise to power that's different from like the kingdoms of the world. Yeah. Through military might, through overthrowing the government, or you know, slaying a ruler or military victory or whatever. It's Jesus' rise to power, and yet he came to establish a kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

And the things that he taught, such as in the Sermon on the Mount, are hey, my kingdom's different from the kingdoms of the world.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah, it's quite upside down.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

And so, like, it's it's if you want to think about it in terms of the way the Romans use the word, is you have a birth announcement. Hey, I have good news that a baby has been born. And what the angels tell the shepherds in Luke is, oh, by the way, this born today is a savior born for you. Yeah. Who is the Messiah, the Lord? You know, so this isn't your average baby. This is a baby with messianic hopes, yeah, messianic fulfillment. I think about the wise men. The wise men come to visit King Herod. And I know this is like, why are we talking about Christmas in May?

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

But the wise men come and what do they say? They say to Herod, Hey, where is the one who's been born king of the Jews? And so they understood that this was not just like a normal baby that was being born. This was someone who would arise to power, you know? And so I just think it's fascinating that as we read the gospels, right? Because storyline is part of this series is to help us make sense of the Bible when we read it. And so if our U version plan takes us through the Old Testament, hopefully we have some handles now through patterns, promises, and presence that we can make sense of what we read.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

But then we flip the page. Now we're in the New Testament. Well, how do we read the New Testament in line of the big story? And the storyline of the big picture of the Bible. Well, what we see is when we turn that page, is like, hey, I have good news. Yeah. I have good news because everything foreshadowed and foretold in the Old Testament is now about to be realized, is about to be fulfilled. Oh, and by the way, it started with born today in the city of David, a savior who is Christ the Lord. Yeah. And so I think that helps us kind of make sense of where we are in the Bible. But what we see is like the gospels are now saying, like, hey, I have really good news. Yeah. Because everything you've been waiting for is about to become reality. Yeah. You know, and Jesus says that to the disciples in Matthew 13, the parable of the sower. He says to them, Hey, you're seeing and hearing with your own eyes and your own ears what the prophets of old longed to see. Like they had a glimpse of this redemption story.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

You guys are living it out. Yeah. You know, and so blessed are you for that. So anyway, I know that's like a long answer to the overall question, but I think it's just it helps us read the gospels. And what we see throughout the rest of the gospels is if you want to think about it like this, is Jesus' rise to power, but he doesn't throw it through military might. He does it through teaching about the kingdom that he's come to establish. And he does it through miracles. Now, the key with the miracles are that Jesus, when he does his miracles, they're always validating the things that he said. They're always validating the message that he preached. And so, you know, I mean, all throughout the gospels. I remember as a kid the same thing, like, oh, you should read your Bible. And then I was seventh grade when I finally started reading my Bible. Okay. And I remember like reading it and I'm like, but I don't really understand what's going on. Yeah. You know, like, okay, Jesus healed a blind man. Whoa, that's crazy. But I don't understand it. You know, like how does this connect with any other thing in the gospels? You know, and I I think for me, I read it as like individual stories and it was just like I think we all did, yeah. I didn't have a well-rounded picture of who Jesus is, but I think the storyline, the series, and why it's so helpful for like even for me is when you zoom out, you see that Jesus didn't do miracles in random. He did them as evidence of the things that he said. And so one of the things that I talked about in the message was Mark chapter two. Mark chapter two is the famous story of the guy who's lame, his four friends bring him in, they come to the house, the house is crowded. They're like, Oh, we're never gonna get in. So they go up on the roof, they tear a hole in the roof, they drop him down.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

But the first thing that Jesus says to that guy is not get up and walk. The first thing Jesus says to this lame guy on his mat is, son, your sins are forgiven. And the people are like, Who is this guy?

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

We should kill him on the spot. He blasphemed. Yeah. Only God can forgive sin. Like, who do you think you are? That's the reaction, and rightfully so, right? Because if someone's like basically claiming to be God, you're like, Who are you? Yeah, yeah. We don't tolerate that. We respect and revere the name of God. Who are you? But here's the crazy part. But then Jesus looks at them and he knows what they're thinking and he says, Why do you think these things in your heart? Which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven or get up and walk. And then without asking for their permission, he tells the guy, hey, get up and walk.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

And the guy picks up his mat and he carries it home when it's on two feet. And so if you think about that, like that's just one story. Those are so common in the gospels. And I don't say common because I want us to get so familiar that we miss the point. Yeah. If you can just zoom out for just a second and think about everything we talked about in this series, is Jesus made a marvelous claim to this guy. Hey, your sins are forgiven. And they acknowledge only God can do that. And then he says to the guy, hey, so that you know that what I say has authority and carries weight. Oh, by the way, get up and walk.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

And so the miracle, yeah, the guy was healed and he walked out on his own two feet. But the greatest miracle in that story is not that a lame guy got healed. The greatest miracle in that story is that somebody is now showed up on the scene who can do something about our sin problem.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

And so that's to me where it connects to the big story of the Bible is we started this entire series in Genesis chapter one, a good guy created a good world. And he said it's very good.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Genesis chapter three, all of a sudden, uh-oh, we have a problem because what was once created to be a good world has now been corrupted by sin. And we see the evidence of now, like all throughout the Old Testament, you see evidences of a sin broken world. We see that in our world today. Yeah. And yet, here's the good news. And why I think it's important that we flip the page and understand that it begins with the gospel, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, is they're saying, I have good news. Yeah. And the good news is somebody has shown up on the scene who can do something about the sin problem that we have.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Not just the sin broken world that we live in as a whole, yeah, but the sin that lives inside of me.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

And he says to a lame man, your sins are forgiven. And I just think all of these things, as when you connect it to the storyline of the Bible, our greatest need is that we are separated from God because of our sin. And we've talked about that. Passed down through Adam, sin spread to every generation, death spread to every generation. And the gospels are telling us, hey, I have really good news. Somebody showed up who could do something about it.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah. Okay. So now I want to kind of dive a little bit deeper into that. So we've talked about how Jesus is a hero, but really, like, I know it seems so elementary, but like we read the scripture, was it Colossians 1, 15, yeah, through 20? So who is Jesus? So I know that's a loaded question, but thinking through the lens of, you know, Colossians 1, but also what we know about God for a listener who may be like, Yeah, I have questions, you know, as I'm reading my Bible and you know, learning about Christianity, I got a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

So let me first say this if that's you and you're genuinely searching for like, okay, who is Jesus? Like I've heard about him, or I know a little bit about like I want to know.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, but like I know he's Jesus God's son, etc. But it's like, who is he down from the world? Who is he?

SPEAKER_00 20:15

What does that mean? Yeah. So so here's the first thing I would say is that's exactly what the gospels are telling us. Yeah. And what's interesting is that they're not just telling us through doctrinal statements this is who Jesus is, they are showing us who Jesus is. And I think that's part of the the point of the gospels is that when you read, and it says in Matthew 7 at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus has spent three chapters basically preaching on a number of different topics. And it says the people are astounded. And they're astounded because they're like, hey, something's different about this guy. And they don't have clear answers on what that is or who that is or what that looks like. But it's very obvious that Jesus taught with an authority that they were not used to or familiar with. Like their scribes are the ones that taught them the Bible, and yet Jesus is saying things like, You've heard it said, you shall not commit murder. Yeah, God said it. That's the Old Testament. That's in the Ten Commandments. So, like, yeah, of course. But then he says something like, But I tell you. And so he's not appealing to the Ten Commandments, he's he's preaching to them with an authority that they're like, Hold on, our scribes just tell us what the Bible says. You're telling us that you're telling us this. And so I think first and foremost, if that's you and you're you're genuinely like, who is Jesus or trying to make sense of all this, is that read the gospels almost like with the innocence of a child.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

You know, almost like 5,000 people ate five loaves and two fish. Like, this doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. And I think that's the point. Yeah. The point is somebody is here who it he obviously stands out from the crowd. He's not just some Jewish guy, you know. And throughout the gospels, you see all kinds of titles. You know, some people, some people say, Oh, he's doing all this because he's demon possessed. That's one conclusion they draw. Other people are like, Oh, this guy's one of the prophets. That's one of the conclusions that they draw. And so you can read through the gospels and you see people. People draw different conclusions trying to make sense of what they see and they hear. But as Peter says when Jesus asks him, Well, who do you say that I am? Well, you're the Christ, the Son of God. Right. And so that's the conclusion that the gospel writers want us to draw. Is that through the fulfillment of prophecy, through the miracles and the signs that Jesus performed, and through the teaching that he taught, all of those things in conjunction with the end of Jesus' life, with his death, burial, and resurrection is the gospel writers, all four of them are pointing us to a very specific conclusion. And that is that the God of heaven stepped down out of heaven, wrapped himself in human flesh, and he came to our rescue. And he came to our rescue at the expense of his own life. And so that's kind of the summary of the gospels. And Paul basically summarizes that entire thing in Colossians 1. I know we mentioned that in the message, but this is this is what Paul says in Colossians 1. In verse 15, he says that he, talking about Jesus, is the image of the invisible God. And so I think right there, that's a key summary for us, but he uses some picture, right? Is an image of something that you can see. And so basically, Paul says that Jesus is the one that we can see, who makes known to us the one that we can't. God is spirit, God is invisible. We can't see him with our eyes. We we can't physically see him. And yet Jesus, fully God in the flesh, is now the one that we can see. Yeah. And the beauty for us, just side note, is we have the gospel writers who were eyewitnesses or wrote based on the eyewitness testimony of the ones who physically saw and were with Jesus. And so he is the image of the invisible God. I skip down just a little bit, just for the sake of time. But in verse 19 of Colossians 1, Paul continues, he says this, for God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him. And so what Paul's telling us is that Jesus is the fullness of God. Like he's not just like a superhuman.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

That he is God in flesh. John tells us that that in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God. In the beginning, he was with God, and all things were created through him. You know, and he goes on, and then he says in John 1 18, he says, No one has ever seen God, but he, Jesus, has made him known. And so if you can think about it this way, that Jesus is the one who makes God known to us in a way that we can understand. I'll give you a quick illustration. I know I'm talking a lot, but this is how I liken it for people to help them really make sense of who Jesus is. So have you ever read a book and then watched the movie of the same story? Yes. So which one did you prefer?

SPEAKER_01 24:29

The book for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

So almost always people will tell us that they prefer the book over the movie.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

And here's my theory, and I think it applies to how we read and understand Jesus. My theory is that as we read the book, we have the freedom of our imagination. And so we imagine how characters look, we imagine how settings look, we imagine how characters sound because we're filling all these gaps in our head because it's just words on a page. Whenever we watch the movie, characters look a certain way, talk a certain way, and the setting is a certain way. And so I think my theory is that the reason why we most often prefer the book is because when we see the movie, we say, hey, something doesn't make sense here. That's not how I thought she looked, or he looked or he talked, or she talked, or that's not how I imagine. Even this, let's say it's a fight scene or something. Like in our mind, we're imagining how this goes. In the movie, it's very concrete. The book is in many ways more abstract.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

The movie is concrete. The movie is locked into details that the book allows us to imagine. And so when we think about Jesus, Jesus is the movie that we see and understand. There are concrete details to who God is. We are no longer left to the imagination of who God is or what he's like.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

And in many ways, prior to Jesus coming, is everybody has a concept of God. Doesn't mean everybody's concept of God is correct, but everybody's concept of God is, oh, he's love and he's just and he's righteous and he's whatever the constructs are. And this is different world religions. This is everybody. People can imagine, and Paul tells us in Romans 1 is that based on general revelation, everybody has an understanding that God exists. You can try to suppress that, but you have it deep down written on your heart that God exists. But people abstractly fill in the gaps of who that God is. And that's why we see different world religions. That's why we see different lifestyles that say, oh, my God does this. Well, yeah, your construct of God in your head allows you to do this or live like this or whatever. When Jesus shows up, he becomes the concrete reality of who God is. And so there's no more debate. There's no more left to the abstract imagination. Jesus tells us and shows us in a way that we can process and understand that no, this is who God is, and this is what he is like.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Not in all of his divine attributes, because some of those are, for lack of a better term, put on pause, you know, as far as omnipresence and things like that. He's confined now to a human body. But the fullness of God, Paul tells us, is dwelling in Jesus. And so if you can imagine it this way, is that Jesus is the movie version. Not because there are two different versions, but because he is giving us the concrete example of who God is. And I think a lot of times in the gospels, what we read is that now all of a sudden, this concrete who God is is rubbing up against the constructs, especially of the Jewish leaders, especially of the Pharisees and the scribes, those who were in power, who held religious control, Jesus always rubbed up against them. And it's because in their mind they had elevated traditions to the level of scripture.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

They were whitewashed tombs. All these things that Jesus says and calls them out about the condition of their heart is because the concrete reality of God in existence before them rubbed up against the abstract concept that they had developed, you know, over periods of years and schooling and teaching and things. So again, I know that's a very long answer to your question, but if you can imagine it, that's who Jesus is. He is the fullness of God in a way that we can understand and digest because we know what it's like to be human.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

And so he basically takes all of the things that we know about God in the abstract, not that it is abstract, like it's clearly revealed in scripture, but he takes it and he becomes the concrete reality so that we have a full picture of who God is. We have a full picture of his love and his justice and how those intersect at the cross, you know, things like that. And so Jesus is the revelation of God to us in a way that we can understand, but he's not just a revelation, he is God in a human body.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, yeah. All right, so I got a question. So, why do you think so many people have a hard time believing that Jesus is the hero of the story, meaning like the Bible?

SPEAKER_00 28:40

So I think there's a couple different answers that you can talk about with this. I think one can just be sheer ignorance. Yeah. You know, this is the person who maybe grew up in and around the church, but doesn't really have a good understanding of who Jesus is. Yeah. Just because, you know, like I've heard some stuff from my grandma or from my Sunday school teacher, but I've never like actually dove in myself. So I think one of those is just ignorance. I think another one of those is like spiritual blindness or hardness of heart. I think it's in John's gospel that he tells us maybe it's in first, second, or third John, but basically that we are lovers of self, that we love darkness. We have a sin nature. We saw that as part of the storyline of the Bible, is it helps us understand the human condition, the world that we live in. And at the heart of it is that we love the things of this world.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

We love sin. And sometimes sin is fun for a period or gives us certain experiences and things like that. And so I think that's part of it. And then at the end of the day, I think it's just rooted in control of like, I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it. Nobody can tell me what to do, things like that. You know, I think what comes to my mind really is the parable of the sower in Matthew 13, where Jesus kind of talks about this, and and he says, you know, in that parable, there's a sower who goes out and sows seed. But what Jesus makes the point of is that that seed falls on four different types of soil. And not to go into the whole parable, but that's kind of the idea is that every human heart is a bed of soil. And so the same Jesus, the same word of God, the same gospel as a seed can fall on different types of soil. And in that, you know, Jesus talked about the different soils and what they represent. But I think that's just kind of the the reason why people can miss or have a hard time believing that Jesus is the hero of the story is because, you know, sometimes it's ignorance, sometimes it's other things that are competing with my attention and my affection, worldly desires, the desires of my flesh, whatever the case may be. And then let me just say this last one as well. I think sometimes people wrestle with the reality of hey, I I see a clear picture of who Jesus is, but I know that to acknowledge and to surrender to who Jesus is, like it's gonna cost me. And in Luke's gospel, I think it's Luke 14, he tells us to count the cost. Like, yeah, that's the point, is that following Jesus is not just an intellectual decision that we make. Yeah, it's a full-blown surrender at the feet of Jesus. And that means I relinquish control, I relinquish my say so because to call him Lord is to acknowledge that he is in control, that he is the master. Yeah. And I am at that point, I know we use that word a lot in church of Lord, but the actual word is a slave term. And in that day, the Lord was the master and the slave was under the master's authority. Now, the unique thing about coming to Jesus is that we are essentially volunteering to make ourselves slaves in this case, but we make ourselves slaves at the feet of Jesus because he's the master. And here's what we are admitting is that my life as a slave to use that term is better in your hands than it is in my hands. And so I think sometimes people they get to that point, and then that last little step of like, but this is gonna cost me everything. You know, I think about especially in other countries, you know, especially Muslim countries where to follow Jesus is not an intellectual decision. It's uh I'm acknowledging that I'm gonna have no contact with my family maybe forever. Yeah. And my own family may be the ones that put me to death. You know, that's a very heart-wrenching situation and scenario. And yet the things that Jesus says in the gospels are basically that to follow me is to take up your cross daily and follow me, and it's better. Yeah. You know, if you love your mother, your father, your brother, your sister more than me, then you're not fit to follow me. You know, like those things that sound really, really harsh. Yeah. And yet I think Jesus is telling us that like there's nothing better.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

No matter what it costs, there's nothing better than to follow me. I'm currently reading a book. It's called Passport to Heaven. It's about an LDS missionary who went on his two-year mission, and it's basically his testimony of how he came to faith in Jesus. And I haven't finished the book, so I don't know exactly how it ends. But I know at one point he is having a one-on-one conversation with his president of his mission, which is like his oversight, his boss, basically. And one of the questions that the guy asks him is so if you do this, basically, if you leave the Mormon church, how's that gonna make your parents feel? And the guy is basically weighing that in his mind, like, I know what they're gonna, they're gonna be crushed. Like they're gonna be devastated. I'm gonna bring so much shame on my family because I'm the rebellious one who left and all and I think you know, sometimes people understand who Jesus is and they see him. They see what the gospel writers are telling us. Yeah, like he isn't worthy of it all, but they have to then weigh in the balance of like, yeah, but this is gonna cost me everything. Yeah, you know, and so I think that's a little bit of a a process that they go through, an obstacle that maybe they have to jump through a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah. So what would you say to the person maybe that has, you know, played church, or maybe I should say it maybe has always viewed Christianity as like a religion, following Jesus is a religion. And now they're realizing, wow, when you follow Jesus is an actual relationship and they're ready to kind of make that switch. What would be some advice or just something you would say to maybe one of our listeners that's maybe wrestling with Adam? They're they're right now counting the costs and they're realizing, okay, it's worth the cost. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 34:04

I would encourage you to do this is to read of the the Pearl of Great Price, is typically what we call not the LDS publication, Pearl of Great Price, by the way, but the parable that Jesus tells us about the man who's in the field. We don't really know why he's in the field, but while he's in the field, he finds treasure. And in his joy and his excitement, he goes and sells everything so he can buy the field. The point is not to have the field, the point is the treasure. Yeah, the treasure was of such great value that it was worth losing everything else. Yeah. And I think that would be my encouragement to that person is that it's not just me telling you that, those words are in red.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

In your Bible, is that Jesus is telling us. And here's why I love the storyline series. Here's why I think it's it's so important that we understand the gospels as a whole is that if Jesus is everything that he said he is, if Jesus is the one who looks at a lame man, and before he ever tells him to get up, he says, son, your sins are forgiven.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

And then he tells you to get up. What he's telling you is that what I say matters. Yeah. And what I say is true. And so for that person who may be struggling or just like, I know, but it's like, I just got to get over the hump of I know this is going to be costly, is that Jesus tells us it will be costly, but what he tells us in that parable is it is worth the cost.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Whoever loses his life for my sake will gain it.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

And so I think that's the hope that I would give you is that these are not my words. These are Jesus' words. And what Jesus is telling us is that yes, there is a great price. Yeah. But what you gain in me is far greater than anything that you could ever give up.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Paul tells us very similarly in Philippians. You know, he's talking about his former life of Judaism and he rose to the ranks and he's like surpassing all of his peers, like he is zealous and all of these things. And now he's writing on the other side of the cross. He's writing having known Jesus and his recollection of those things that he once considered of great value. He now says they're rubbish.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

You know, and so that would be my encouragement is to is to just see what does Jesus say about this. Yeah. You know, Jesus told us that in this world we'll have trouble, but take heart. I've overcome the world.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

I think the weightiness though is good because a lot of people kind of make this quote unquote decision to follow Jesus without counting the cost, without realizing really what's at stake.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

And so I think if you're dealing with the weightiness, that's a good indication that you really understand who Jesus is and you really understand what he's asking you to do. Yeah. Is to lay it all down. I use this as the conclusion to my message. It's in Luke chapter seven, is the story of the Pharisee who invites Jesus over to his house. And the reason why I wanted to read that story at the end is because I think that's exactly what happens in this story. So this message, the words that we use were hero and rescue, right? Because we're talking about the storyline and these, these kind of individual parts or chapters of the Bible. And so the gospels is really where we see the hero show up, the one who can do something about this. And so what I wanted to do for our people in Live Oak is like I love using illustrations for people to wrap their heads around. And so we talked the whole message about the hero who's come, the hero that we needed, Jesus is the hero that God sent to rescue the world, all these things. And that's what the gospel is telling us. But sometimes we don't always see it. We need characters to relate to. And so the way we ended it was in Luke chapter 7, where Simon the Pharisee invites Jesus to his house. And if you're familiar with the story, Jesus comes over and it says that there is a woman, we don't know her name. She's just identified as a sinner. That's how she's called in the text. She's a sinner. But yet when she finds out that Jesus is there, she comes in, she anoints his head with perfume. Basically, she cries tears on his feet and uses her hair to wash his feet. Right. This this total surrender and humility in this moment where she's like laying it all out on the line. And so the way the text reads in Luke 7 is Simon, the guy who invited Jesus, he sees all this taking place. And his conclusion is if Jesus was who he said he was and he really was a prophet, then he would know who was touching him. He would know that she's a sinful woman. He would know that she's making him unclean, like all of these things. Like he's thinking this. He doesn't see her humiliation and her desperation. He sees Jesus as like, man, this guy doesn't even know who this lady is. A guy in town knows who this lady is. And it says that Jesus, knowing his thoughts, he says, Simon, I have a question for you. Then he tells him about a banker who lended money to two people, one 500 and RIA 150, so a 10 times amount. He says he saw they couldn't pay it back, so the banker forgave their loans. And he says to Simon, he says, So which one do you think loves him more? And Simon says, Well, I suppose the one that he forgave more. And Jesus says, That's exactly the point. He says, This woman came in, she anointed my head with perfume, she wiped my feet with her tears and her hair. And he says this at the end. He says, Because she has been forgiven much, she loves much. Then he says these condemning words, but he who has forgiven little loves little. And so the reason I wanted to end with that story is because I think that's a great ending to this idea of hero. For this woman, she understood who she was.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

And she saw Jesus as the hero that she needed.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

And so her actions are in utter desperation. She lays it all down at the feet of Jesus because he is the hero that she needed. He is the one who can do for her what she cannot do for herself. And then on the other side of the coin, you have here's Simon. And Simon is missing out on the hero of the story because he's sitting over there speculating and concluding wrongly about Jesus. And so the way that I wanted to end it was kind of like this idea for the woman, Jesus is the hero that she needed. But here's the scary thing. For Simon, Jesus is more like the sidekick who gets the leftovers. And so the point is that Simon, the Pharisee, is the hero of his story. He doesn't see a need for forgiveness. And so if he hasn't really done anything that needs forgiving, then guess who's the hero? He is because he's done it all. Yeah. And his actions treat Jesus like a sidekick, where he Jesus says, You didn't even give me the customary washings. It was just customary when I walk into your house, like my feet get washed. Like that was just general handshake, high five, how are you? Greetings in the day. And he's like, You didn't even give me that. Meanwhile, this lady does it all from her tears and her expensive perfume.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

And I think that's the scary part of when we talk about Jesus. Jesus is the hero. He's the hero of the Bible. This is the story that the Bible is telling us that we live in a sin, broken, corrupted, distorted world. And God in his grace sent his son to do something about it to rescue us from our sin. But just because Jesus is the hero of the Bible does not mean that he's the hero of your story. And in this case, Simon is proof of that. And his actions are Jesus isn't the hero, he's a sidekick.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

And so I think for us, there's a sobering thought in that. That just because we can read this in the gospel, just because we can know what the Bible says, just because we can know about what Jesus taught and the things that he did, does not mean that he is the hero of your story. Yeah. And I think the other side of that, and I don't know if other guys ended it exactly with this wording. But the way that we kind of left it in Labbock was this if you are the hero of your story, then Jesus isn't.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

And yet that's the good news of the gospel. That is the Bible story, is that Jesus is the hero of the story, and Jesus is the hero that you need.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

The difference is have you realized that you need a hero or are you still trying to be the hero of your story?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Matt, man, thank you so much for being here with us. And kind of just to continue on with that, if you are finding yourself maybe with questions or maybe realizing, man, Jesus isn't the hero of my story, but I still have a lot of questions. We want to help you with those. So you can reach out to us at info at theorchardcc.org. And we'd be more than happy to help you answer this question. So whether it's meat for coffee, a phone call, whatever it is, we want to help you on that path to letting Jesus be the hero of your story. So be sure to reach out to us. Next week we will kind of continue on with our sermon series. And in the meantime, we'll see you then. Have a good week. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Let's Talk About That. We hope it encouraged and challenged you as we continue to grow on this journey of faith and embrace community together. If you have more questions, thoughts, or feedback, we want to hear from you. Be sure to reach out to us through our social media or visit our website to stay connected. If you found today's discussion meaningful, don't forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review. Until next time, we hope that this episode inspired you and will keep Sunday's message at the front of your mind. See you next week.