WEBVTT 00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:04.320 Welcome to the Monogamous Marriage Podcast. 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:09.279 We're Kate and Liam, married bisexuals a decade into our non-monogamous journey. 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:14.720 We've been having sex with our friends for 10 years, and we're still madly in love with each other. 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:20.960 We're the authors of the Monogamous Marriage Blog, where we've been overthinking sex and love since 2016. 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:25.760 This podcast is the place where we process our sexual adventures in real time. 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:30.800 We are not experts, and nothing we say should be mistaken for professional advice. 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:36.640 The show contains mature language and sexual content, so if you're under 18, it isn't for you. 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:43.439 But if you're a fellow overthinker and you're not freaked out by unfiltered conversation, you're gonna feel right at home. 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:59.439 Okay, today we're talking about aging, which is a bit of a taboo subject in the lifestyle because I think we're all supposed to pretend that age is just a number and doesn't enter into our calculations at all, but it really does. 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:05.439 Well, age has been a factor for us from the beginning, so it's something that we're used to thinking about and talking about. 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:15.040 So we've got a 15-year age gap between us, and when we got together, I was 35 and No, you were 34. 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:17.840 34, and you were 49. 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:19.280 Right. 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.599 So you were at that time the age that I am right now. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:27.760 Right, which is an interesting flip, 15 years into our relationship. 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:32.799 So what ways have you felt that age has impacted our relationship? 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.719 Well, I think at the beginning there were a couple of things going on. 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.400 Certainly for me, I felt conflicted because I was a 49-year-old man. 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:41.200 What does that mean? 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:44.959 That means I'm in the prime era of midlife crises. 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:47.359 And what goes with midlife crises? 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:49.680 Women who are way too young for you. 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:50.480 There you go. 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:51.439 Well, check. 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:52.480 Yes. 00:01:52.879 --> 00:02:00.719 So I remember feeling conflicted in that regard because I really was drawn to you as a human being. 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:02.799 And age was not a factor in that. 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:10.240 If you were my age, if you had been five years older than me, with all the qualities you have, that would have been great news. 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:30.319 Age would not have held me back, but you were younger, so I had to start thinking about how people would think of me because my whole life has been about being level-headed and compromising for the sake of having a more beautiful girlfriend would have been not what I want to project to the world. 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:34.000 Yeah, and I had always been attracted to older men. 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:41.360 So one of my very early crushes was Jean-Luc Picard, Patrick Stewart from Star Trek. 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:47.759 And I remember in high school watching him and just the authority and power he had. 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:50.800 And I was so turned on by that. 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.840 So you're not the biggest age gap relationship I've had. 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:54.319 Right. 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:57.280 So because Jean-Luc Picard is way older than me. 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:00.080 I actually want to stop on him for a second. 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:03.919 Can you tell me what that felt like internally? 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:07.520 Like, were you picturing having sex with Jean-Luc Picard? 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:14.400 Or was it just like I feel these feelings in my body when he's on the screen and I don't know what they are and I don't know what I would do with them? 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:26.000 I don't remember explicitly having fantasies about him sexually, but I do remember just feeling like, ugh, like every time he would be like, engage. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:29.199 I just got a little tingly. 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:30.319 Like, I don't know. 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:38.159 I guess it was the authority, the power, the like calm, um certain way he had about himself. 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:40.400 I just found it very attractive. 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:40.960 Yeah. 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:50.400 So it's interesting how a crush can be, it sounds like non-sexual, even though maybe if he propositioned you, it would suddenly become sexual, but from a distance. 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:51.759 I'd still do him. 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:53.439 He's like 80. 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:54.400 Yes. 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:58.240 And if you had that opportunity, I would definitely not stand in your way. 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:00.879 But I mean, it wasn't all good news. 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:07.599 So even though I was attracted to you, and I mean, like now that I'm 49, I realize you are quite young. 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:08.319 Right. 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:09.039 Thank you. 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:10.000 Belatedly. 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.680 For me at 34, it was obvious you were quite a bit older. 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:16.000 Like you were getting gray at that point. 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:21.759 Um, you had kids who were teenagers and um and in their twenties. 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:22.240 Yeah. 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:27.439 And when you and I first had a conversation, I was pregnant with my younger son. 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:30.000 And you know, it's still three years before we got together. 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.600 But I had young kids, and your kids were older. 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:45.120 So one of the things I had to consider as we started getting more serious was do you really want to take on the task of helping to raise these young kids when you've already gotten past that phase of life yourself? 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.480 So I didn't want to burden you with kids you didn't want. 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:49.040 Yeah. 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:59.120 Well, I hate to say this, but every human being makes a transition from being a parent to being in grandparent mode at some point. 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.759 So, in a way, even though I didn't see myself as your children's grandparent. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:04.399 Oh God. 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:16.240 Those same circuits are in me, that increasing care for the younger generation that actually extends beyond my own time as a parent. 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:16.720 Yeah. 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:19.199 And I think you remember I took pretty easily to it. 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:22.319 Like I was a very enthusiastic step parent to your kids. 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:23.439 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:24.560 You've been wonderful. 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:25.920 How about from the outside? 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:36.000 So from the inside, we are attracted to each other for obviously more than our bodies, more than our faces, which age and change, obviously. 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:46.720 You know, I was always drawn to the fact that you were just a very kind, open-minded, patient, generous person. 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:58.480 And you're smart, you know, you're conversant in all kinds of different topics, and you're musical, and you go to the gym, and you know, you had a lot of things that I was looking for. 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:05.920 So the age was just, you know, it was a thing we obviously had to consider, and I still consider it regularly, you know. 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:06.399 Right. 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:07.519 In different ways now. 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:08.000 Yeah. 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:19.519 So I think about, you know, when I'm your age having a partner 15 years older, it will be it'll be a caretaking role, potentially, right? 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.839 I'm 64, and when you're 64, I'll be 79. 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:24.720 Yeah. 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:28.079 I expect to be a healthy, fit, robust 79-year-old. 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:28.560 Right. 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.160 And that makes a big difference, right? 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:34.480 So right now you're 64, you hear that number, and you're like, oof, that's an old person. 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:37.920 But then you look at you and you are fit. 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:40.959 You still run up and down the stairs, you can still play hockey. 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:45.040 Your ass is the best ass in almost every room. 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:51.360 And, you know, you're you're not showing the signs of aging you might expect from a 64-year-old. 00:06:51.600 --> 00:07:04.480 But um, yeah, I I don't really think about it all that much, other than the fact that, you know, we need to make sure that financially we're prepared for whatever happens when you get old and things get expensive. 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:08.399 Yeah, I have to say, it's becoming more real to me now. 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:15.759 So throughout your life, you're aware that you're going to age, decline, and eventually die. 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:23.360 But it's so far off in the distance when you're 20 and 30 and 40 and even at 50. 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:29.279 But when there's a six in front of your age number, it really changes things. 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:37.040 You know, I really feel how old I am when I do one of those enrollments online on your phone where there's a wheel. 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:39.920 And so you pick, first of all, the date. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:46.240 So I pick my birth date, and then there's the month, and you pick the month, and then there's the wheel for the years. 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:54.079 And I start spinning through that thing, and I go back through the 2000s, and I remember that well. 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.319 I was in my 40s and the 1990s. 00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:07.519 I was an adult in the 1990s, and living life and establishing a business and finishing up school, and then there's the 80s, which I remember well, and the 70s, which I remember well, and the 60s, which I remember well. 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:13.439 And I've memories attached to each one of those years as they fly by on the wheel, getting to 1961. 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:22.720 And now I'm thinking about those abstractions of decline and death, and they're just a little more real. 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:40.159 So I did a test a while ago, like a very, very comprehensive test with the Cleveland Clinic, where I've answered so many questions about my diet and my fitness habits and my health and my medical history family-wise, going back a couple of generations. 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.759 And their estimation was that I would live to 97. 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:45.120 Oh God. 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.600 I don't think we're financially prepared for that. 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:48.799 I think we are. 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:50.080 But that's a separate podcast. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:51.840 We need to save more money. 00:08:52.480 --> 00:09:06.080 So, in a way, I could think that stage of life, that end stage of life, is still 30 something years away, maybe, but it's more real to me now in a way that it never was before. 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:12.159 And in a way that I'm sure it isn't for you, even though you can worry about it, it's still an abstraction for you, I would think. 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:12.639 Yeah. 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:18.399 Although I do have to say that at 49, this is the year I started to feel older. 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:18.879 Right. 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:25.120 So perimenopause has been hitting me probably the past three years with bad hot flashes. 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:31.759 You know, you wake up in the middle of the night just pouring sweat, inability to sleep, inability to focus. 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:33.840 I just got the brain fog. 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:41.919 I feel like I have menopause-induced ADHD at times, you know, irritability, lack of energy, lack of libido. 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:42.480 Right. 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:47.279 And so I am starting to feel older for the first time in my life. 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:50.240 And, you know, you're 15 years beyond me. 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:56.240 So I can only imagine what a wreck I'll be by the time I'm your age. 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:00.559 But the libido thing has become an issue in our relationship as well. 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:01.200 Yes. 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:03.919 And we did a podcast on that fairly recently. 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:16.960 But it's like a moving target because you make peace with the differences in your libidos, both how much sex you want, what kinds of sex you want, how much effort you're willing to put into the preparation and all those things. 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:19.279 But you think of it, okay, we've got it established now. 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.159 We've got a working arrangement between your libido and my libido. 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.240 But when they start changing, it becomes really complex. 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:34.159 The old agreements don't quite work anymore, and you have to constantly renegotiate what your sex life means as you age. 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:35.039 Yeah. 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.919 So speaking of sex, how has age been a factor for us in the lifestyle? 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:40.480 Oh, yeah. 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:41.440 This is a lifestyle podcast. 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:41.919 I feel like. 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:42.399 Oh, yeah. 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:43.279 Let's talk about sex. 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:43.919 Yeah. 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:53.120 So we were non-monogamous from the beginning, but only accidentally so because you were in a sexual relationship with your best friend. 00:10:53.360 --> 00:11:06.159 And so I became the third in that two-way connection for a little while, just briefly, but it opened up for us the possibilities of bringing other people into our sex lives. 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:15.840 And it made real, I think, a general desire that we had at the beginning that we would be open-minded sexually and experimental. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:20.639 So with Melissa, we got the chance to do that right away and see what it looks like in action. 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:23.039 But we didn't know what the lifestyle was. 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:28.159 We didn't know where you would pursue it until we went to hedonism. 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:29.919 And then we had some experiences there. 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:36.000 We saw that there was a community, and we learned about how to connect with people back home. 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:45.279 So when we did that, we somehow ended up building connections with people who were in my age group. 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:47.919 So at that time, in their 50s. 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:48.559 Right. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:53.120 So that was probably in part because you were doing all the online searches. 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:55.279 I didn't have the patience for that. 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:59.919 So you would bring couples to me that you had chosen and we'd meet them. 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:04.159 And I guess that you were kind of searching for people who were like you. 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:14.080 Um, so for a long time, we were in a group of people who were lovely and we had lots of fun sexual experiences with them, but they were largely people of your age. 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:14.559 Right. 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:16.639 And we still have connections with some of them. 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:24.399 But you also let me know at that stage that you wanted to build connections with people that were more your age. 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:26.480 And again, lots of couples wouldn't deal with this. 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.519 They're within five years of each other, I think, typically. 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:31.039 So they don't have to consider that. 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:32.399 But for us, it was a real factor. 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:37.759 Are we going to shop in this aisle at the lifestyle supermarket or this aisle? 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.080 And those aisles weren't even side by side. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:41.919 They were pretty far apart. 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:42.559 Yeah. 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:59.519 So we were able to, maybe not with this explicit goal in mind, but we were able to start searching for people who would be more in my age group and quite quickly found a group of friends who were all around my age and some of them younger. 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:09.039 So right now, the the two couples we're closest with are one of them is almost exactly my age, and the other couple is is younger than me, even. 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:09.600 Right. 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:17.039 So when we're in our, you know, our group of closest friends, you are the oldest by like 15 years. 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:17.600 Yeah. 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:25.279 And so that was great because again, the same feelings I had about having a wife who was younger and hotter. 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:31.759 It's pretty ego gratifying to have a lifestyle circle that's younger and hotter. 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:36.799 Again, not that hotness necessarily equates one-to-one with age. 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:37.200 Sure. 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:38.720 But it just is a factor. 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:40.559 It's one of the factors that's at play there. 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:42.399 So it was kind of gratifying for me. 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:53.200 I've got pictures of myself with women who are in your category that I've had sex with, and part of me wants to share them with all my friends. 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:55.360 Look who I fucked last weekend. 00:13:55.679 --> 00:14:02.000 Yeah, like because I'll share with them abstractly what it's like to be non-monogamous and in the lifestyle. 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:08.240 But I just feel like, oh, if I could show them a picture of me with Bay or me with Mrs. 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:15.200 H, or I mean, there's others too that I would be very proud to show off if I was that kind of person. 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:16.159 But I'm not. 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:16.879 Right. 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:24.000 And, you know, part of why we work with that group is because you are very sexy. 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.799 Like you do bring something to the party sexually. 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:28.240 It's not just your brain. 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:38.240 Your body is very much in line with the, oh, I hate even saying this, but like the caliber of bodies in that group. 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:42.240 They're fit people who look fabulous naked. 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:47.679 And you don't stand out as not fitting in with that caliber. 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:52.879 I'm having a hard time saying this without like body shaming, but yeah, like you fit in. 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:53.200 Yes. 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.399 You've got a great body, you got a great cock, you're very strong. 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:56.879 Yeah. 00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:57.440 Yeah. 00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:59.919 And that's very lovely to hear, obviously. 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.200 But I do become aware of my age at certain times. 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:09.759 So we got together for a party at friends of ours in Ottawa. 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:16.879 And this was, and I say party, lifestyle party means three days together of fucking all the stuff that's a good thing. 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:17.679 It's a whole weekend. 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:21.039 Yeah, it was built around a broader party where lots of guests came in. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:44.080 But I do remember when the six of us were sitting around the island and just chatting away, and they have a big mirror behind their island, and catching a glimpse of myself and just being very suddenly reminded, oh, one of the people in this group of six is 15 years older than everyone else in the group. 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:50.480 And it leapt out at me, and partly it hit me so strongly because there were other differences. 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:53.759 So one of them was that I was the only one who wasn't a drinker. 00:15:53.840 --> 00:16:07.600 So it was clear that everyone else around the table was just taking another drink whenever it was offered, and they were feeling the social lubricant effects and laughing and joking and talking over each other. 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:12.720 And then there was quiet Liam, also the oldest guy there. 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:20.320 And so age can be a multiplier of other differences that are at play in a social group. 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:21.759 Yeah, for sure. 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.799 And you know, I I'm aware of that. 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.679 And for a long time I thought it was just because you don't drink. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:37.440 You know, so everybody else is laughing and partying and and being kind of raucous, and you're quiet because you're not uninhibited by alcohol. 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.480 Also because I'm that way to begin with. 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:50.480 So if we were all magically put back to the age of 23, so we were a group of six, 23-year-olds, I'd probably still be the outlier there because I never did drink. 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:52.080 I would have been with you back then. 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:52.799 Right. 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:57.919 I always was a person who connects one-on-one better than in groups. 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:00.720 I don't like muscling my way into a group conversation. 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:07.680 Something that's kind of like an athletic endeavor for those of you who love it doesn't really work for me. 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:15.680 So I would have had that feeling of difference, but then you add age to it and it just it makes it different. 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:28.400 And one of the differences I'm seeing is when we go to these weekend long things, you will kind of budget the energy for one night of play and then tell me, I'm gonna go to bed early tomorrow. 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:29.200 You're on your own. 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:29.759 Right. 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:31.920 And thankfully, that's fine. 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:39.839 You know, everyone in our group is, you know, cool with playing separately and um and I don't mind it anymore. 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:44.400 So, you know, of course I would like you to be there with me. 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:50.640 I would like us to have equal energy levels and, you know, equal amounts of fun. 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:57.119 It makes me feel a little bit sad sometimes that you can't be there with me and that you're missing out on the fun. 00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:57.680 Right. 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:02.799 But I'm I'm also, you know, at peace with the fact that that's really what you want to do. 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:09.200 That's your best scenario for um for having the most amount of fun you can have at this stage of your life. 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.519 But yeah, it does take you out of the party. 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:15.359 And when I'm the only one without a partner, I'm aware of that. 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:15.920 Yeah. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:19.839 And again, I don't know if that would have been different if we were all 23-year-olds. 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:32.559 I might have had, even back then, even with the promise of sex and my much higher libido at the time, I might have still been budgeting my energy for that kind of thing. 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:43.599 So I have limitless energy for lots of different things in life, for exercise, for artistic endeavors, but maybe not for social things. 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:48.799 I do get, as kind of an introvert, tapped out earlier than most people. 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:59.200 But before we leave that weekend in Ottawa, that night you spent a lot of time in the bedroom with one of the youngest, hottest guests at that party. 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:00.160 That's true. 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.559 And so I'm just trying to think how that came to be. 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:03.680 Why do you think it was? 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:06.720 Well, I mean, you could say daddy issues. 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:07.119 Okay. 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:09.519 I'm not against That's an easy throwaway. 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:11.200 I'm not against leveraging that. 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:21.279 But I mean, you two were having a long conversation earlier in the evening when it was still social, and you could see her getting very comfortable with you. 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:23.599 And you have that effect on people. 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:28.559 You ask lots of questions and you're really interested in in people and their stories. 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.799 And that's very attractive to women. 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:45.839 You know, women are, I think, not really used to that in a man, you know, someone who's truly focused on them, paying attention to them, asking them questions that show that they're listening and not trying to make sexual advances. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.640 So you make people feel safe that way. 00:19:49.119 --> 00:20:00.000 And um, I think for for women who are not used to that or who have, you know, had more experience with men who are driving toward a sexual goal, it feels nice and easy to be with you. 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:00.480 Right. 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.319 Or maybe for women who are more demisexual in their preferences. 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:11.039 But I also wonder, I can't help but wonder, if my age actually helps. 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:16.640 Does it make a woman feel safer at a deep body level? 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:28.160 Like I can let go a bit more and trust a bit more, and then maybe be open to things happening that I wouldn't be so much if I was more on my guard against advances. 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:29.519 For sure. 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.960 Yeah, you you have the feeling of a safe person. 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:35.920 And we've had lots of our friends in the lifestyle say that to you. 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:43.200 Lots of women, especially who maybe even have trauma in their background, have trusted you because you feel safe. 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:44.160 Right. 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:55.119 Having said that, I do feel a bit like for every woman for whom it works as an advantage, there are maybe five or ten for whom it's a disadvantage. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:55.680 Sure. 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:03.039 So I think that's what I was feeling that day in Ottawa when I looked in the mirror and was thinking about that party and all these new people coming in that night. 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:08.319 And I've often thought of it in terms of my hockey career. 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:15.920 So my hockey career being a strictly amateur adult recreational league hockey career since I was a teenager. 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:17.440 We're not talking NHL here. 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:23.759 No, and never on the NHL track or the AHL track or the ECHL track. 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.640 Just for those of you who know your tiers of hockey. 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:32.480 But as I was in my 50s and playing rec league hockey, I was still playing with guys in their 20s and 30s. 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:44.079 And it became very disheartening that they would line up against me and maybe the puck goes into the corner, and I know I'm losing every foot race. 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:59.839 So the connection with the lifestyle is I feel like since I've joined your younger age division, I feel like I would like some time in the senior leagues of the lifestyle where I feel like, oh, I'm like in the upper echelon. 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:07.599 Here, you know, from fitness level or whatever, that I'm more competitive, I guess is what I'm saying. 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:09.680 And so I do miss that. 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:23.920 So, you know, you brought me into a cohort that was younger and has so many great qualities and has been so satisfying to me, not just because the people are younger, but because they're actually wonderful people, but age is a part of it. 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:29.279 But I just think, wow, what if what if I was in an over 60 room of lifestyle people? 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.240 I feel like I could knock the ball out of the park with bad group. 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:33.279 Yes. 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:34.880 I like achievement. 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:39.279 I would sometimes like to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:40.480 I get that. 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:40.799 Yeah. 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:42.079 I mean, it is what it is. 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:48.480 I don't know if opportunities will come up in that regard as we continue to navigate our way through, but it is something I think about. 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:54.400 And I am really curious to be with a woman my own age. 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:58.400 So if you think of a kink, so many guys work in the opposite direction. 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.720 Whoa, I'd like to be with a woman who's like 20 years younger than me or whatever. 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.079 But for me, it's the opposite. 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:12.319 It'd be like the kinky side of me thinks, oh, I'd like to be with a 64-year-old woman or a 70-year-old woman. 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:12.880 Yeah. 00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:13.359 Yeah. 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:14.880 Like if the attraction's there. 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.720 Well, can you imagine if it went the other way if you went 15 years older? 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:20.240 Yeah, that's hard. 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:21.759 I don't know, 79. 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:24.720 But that's what I'm gonna have to do at your age. 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:28.960 I know, but I'm I'm working really hard to make it good for you. 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:31.279 So yeah. 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:46.640 I guess the thing is I'm not talking about whether it's uh a specific thing that's going to happen or about a specific person, but just as a general wish that I'm putting out there into the universe, I would like that experience. 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:48.079 It would feel hot to me. 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:54.240 Well, you had that opportunity when you were doing this separate dating with you know, finding women online. 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:57.440 You went on a few dates with people around your age, didn't you? 00:23:57.920 --> 00:23:59.279 One was a woman my age. 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:05.039 But she was so weird that it was not what I was fantasizing about. 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:05.920 Let's put it that way. 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:06.559 All right. 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.799 Well, you still are free to do that. 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:10.559 Go find an older woman. 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:11.039 Yeah. 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:19.200 I mean, it does remind me of a woman named Carrie who we met at hedonism a long time ago. 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:21.920 So I don't think we've ever told that story in the podcast. 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:28.319 I was in my late fifties at the time, and we were around the big hot tub at hedonism. 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:37.440 It's nighttime, and there are people sitting around the edge, and lots of women are giving their men blowjobs, lots of men are giving their women oral sex. 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:38.720 And we're doing kind of that. 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:47.680 And then I see a woman come into the pool, and she's older, and she's with her husband, she sits down, and then another man comes in and sits pretty close to her. 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:49.200 Like it's attention getting. 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:50.559 He's awful close to her. 00:24:50.720 --> 00:25:14.319 And then I start analyzing the angles of their shoulders and realizing, oh, if I'm not mistaken, her hand is in his lap, and then I was seeing his hand in her lap, then she came over and asked your permission to give me a blowjob, and then put some ice cubes into her mouth and gave me that kind of temperature-inflected blowjob. 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:20.079 So it was nice, but it was more her freedom when I saw her across the pool that turned me on. 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:26.799 And did we explain that this woman looked very much like your stereotypical grandma? 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:33.279 Like she had the shortcut perm and was at least 70. 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:34.400 Yeah, we debated. 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:38.720 I thought she was 64 at the time, which was five years older than me or more. 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:42.720 And you got that number from her, or you just randomly pick 64 out of a hat. 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:44.880 Just like you picked 70 out of your hat. 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:46.160 So at least it's round. 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:46.480 Yeah. 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.759 So anyway, let's say she was in her late 60s, early 70s. 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:59.279 So the next day, when I got in the pool, I'm talking to her, I'm talking to her husband, but her hand is sure enough on my thigh, working its way up. 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.039 Soon she's stroking my cock. 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:06.720 I am turned on out of my mind by this, let's say, 70-year-old woman. 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:12.400 And so as we had this conversation, the husband said, We'd love to get together with the two of you later. 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:15.039 And I'm just going, Oh no. 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:17.119 Like Kate is not touching his gun. 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.960 He is not her type in any way, shape, or form. 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:21.839 So this is not gonna happen. 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:23.359 And it wasn't just an age thing. 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.640 He was also overweight and Yeah, there was a few things going on. 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.279 But anyway, I asked you, and you said no. 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.119 I said, Of course, I understand completely. 00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:56.720 So I went back and I told them, and then I saw them leaving the next day, and I felt a really deep empathic sadness because I could picture her, of course, I have no idea what's going on in her mind, but I could picture her thinking, oh, I'm too old for the lifestyle, and you know, no one's really interested in this old lady anymore, and maybe we should call it quits. 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:01.759 And I felt like running up to her and saying, I hope you're not feeling bad about yourself. 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:14.400 I felt so much lust for you, but because it didn't work between your husband and my wife, I didn't even proposition you, but I would have, and if I'd thought of it at the time, I would have said, Hey, are you open to playing separately? 00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:17.279 But of course, we weren't at that stage in our journey at that point. 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:21.599 So I told you you could go back to the room with them, and you thought it would be weird to be a third. 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:23.359 I did not want to be a third with them. 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:23.759 Yeah. 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.000 I was I was really interested in her. 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:36.400 Anyway, the point of the story is The point of the story is that it is possible to misjudge your appeal because of age. 00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:44.400 So you start aging out in the lifestyle, not because other people are perceiving you as too old, but because you're self-disqualifying. 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:50.319 So again, I'm guessing what might have been going on with her, but the lust I felt was real. 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:52.799 Like I was rarely that turned on in the lifestyle. 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:57.359 And have you been able to carry this lesson forward into your own life? 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:07.680 Because I know you have disqualified yourself in situations where there were people who wanted to have sex with you, but you thought, oh, they're probably just here for Kate. 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:08.880 Absolutely, I have. 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.319 So have you been able to remember that lesson of the No, I have not. 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:14.799 I remember it as a really great story. 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:15.200 Okay. 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:20.240 But not as something that I can actually apply in my own case. 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:20.720 Right. 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:21.440 Unfortunately. 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:22.000 Okay. 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:27.440 So let's just reiterate that you don't necessarily know your appeal do any of them. 00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:35.920 Right. 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:41.359 And because you're attracted to older guys, you've probably looked at younger guys and said no. 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:42.720 Sure. 00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:43.279 Yeah. 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:47.119 Like so different from you know, most men would say the younger the better. 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:48.799 And so that's not always the case. 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.240 Definitely not the case with me. 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.359 But for you, younger is like a disadvantage. 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.279 The guy would have to be really fantastic. 00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:55.519 Yeah. 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:57.279 If he was even like 10 years younger. 00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:01.519 So you think, wow, 49 years old and you can be with a 39-year-old, wouldn't that be exciting? 00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:10.000 And your answer is kind of well, the guy I was with who was the the the youngest, so he was twelve years younger than me. 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:10.559 Yes. 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:15.519 Yeah, he was very attractive, had a very nice cock, but I didn't find him that interesting. 00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:16.079 Right. 00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:18.559 Not that we had many long conversations. 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:21.440 I I'm just not super drawn to younger people. 00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:33.279 I guess my stereotype of younger men is that they're gonna be too graspy, um, not intellectually interesting, but obviously like that's not universally true. 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.640 So but yeah, I just I'm not super attracted to people younger than me. 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:46.160 Um when I was dating online though, I did go out with a few men who were younger and had sex with them, you know, people like ten years younger than me. 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:46.799 Right. 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.880 Um so I don't know w what they were responding to in me. 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:52.880 Maybe they like the older woman, I'm not sure. 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:54.960 I think it's a big thing going. 00:29:55.200 --> 00:30:04.559 I'm hearing in our society from different places that there is a big trend of younger men being interested in older women. 00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:11.759 Well, I mean, f for for one of these guys, I was his first anal sex ever. 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:17.759 I gave him his first threesome ever, and I think I only had three dates with him. 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:18.559 Right. 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.880 So so in the course of three dates, I rocked his world. 00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:24.240 And he was a very cool guy. 00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:28.880