SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Monogamous Marriage Podcast.
SPEAKER_00: We're Kate and Liam, married bisexuals a decade into our non-monogamous journey.
SPEAKER_01: We've been having sex with our friends for 10 years, and we're still madly in love with each other.
SPEAKER_00: We're the authors of the Monogamous Marriage Blog, where we've been overthinking sex and love since 2016.
SPEAKER_00: This podcast is the place where we process our sexual adventures in real time.
SPEAKER_01: We are not experts, and nothing we say should be mistaken for professional advice.
SPEAKER_01: The show contains mature language and sexual content, so if you're under 18, it isn't for you.
SPEAKER_01: But if you're a fellow overthinker and you're not freaked out by unfiltered conversation, you're gonna feel right at home.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, today we're talking about aging, which is a bit of a taboo subject in the lifestyle because I think we're all supposed to pretend that age is just a number and doesn't enter into our calculations at all, but it really does.
SPEAKER_01: Well, age has been a factor for us from the beginning, so it's something that we're used to thinking about and talking about.
SPEAKER_01: So we've got a 15-year age gap between us, and when we got together, I was 35 and No, you were 34.
SPEAKER_01: 34, and you were 49.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So you were at that time the age that I am right now.
SPEAKER_00: Right, which is an interesting flip, 15 years into our relationship.
SPEAKER_01: So what ways have you felt that age has impacted our relationship?
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think at the beginning there were a couple of things going on.
SPEAKER_00: Certainly for me, I felt conflicted because I was a 49-year-old man.
SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
SPEAKER_00: That means I'm in the prime era of midlife crises.
SPEAKER_00: And what goes with midlife crises?
SPEAKER_00: Women who are way too young for you.
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
SPEAKER_01: Well, check.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: So I remember feeling conflicted in that regard because I really was drawn to you as a human being.
SPEAKER_00: And age was not a factor in that.
SPEAKER_00: If you were my age, if you had been five years older than me, with all the qualities you have, that would have been great news.
SPEAKER_00: Age would not have held me back, but you were younger, so I had to start thinking about how people would think of me because my whole life has been about being level-headed and compromising for the sake of having a more beautiful girlfriend would have been not what I want to project to the world.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I had always been attracted to older men.
SPEAKER_01: So one of my very early crushes was Jean-Luc Picard, Patrick Stewart from Star Trek.
SPEAKER_01: And I remember in high school watching him and just the authority and power he had.
SPEAKER_01: And I was so turned on by that.
SPEAKER_01: So you're not the biggest age gap relationship I've had.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: So because Jean-Luc Picard is way older than me.
SPEAKER_00: I actually want to stop on him for a second.
SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me what that felt like internally?
SPEAKER_00: Like, were you picturing having sex with Jean-Luc Picard?
SPEAKER_00: Or was it just like I feel these feelings in my body when he's on the screen and I don't know what they are and I don't know what I would do with them?
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember explicitly having fantasies about him sexually, but I do remember just feeling like, ugh, like every time he would be like, engage.
SPEAKER_01: I just got a little tingly.
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01: I guess it was the authority, the power, the like calm, um certain way he had about himself.
SPEAKER_01: I just found it very attractive.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting how a crush can be, it sounds like non-sexual, even though maybe if he propositioned you, it would suddenly become sexual, but from a distance.
SPEAKER_01: I'd still do him.
SPEAKER_01: He's like 80.
unknown: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: And if you had that opportunity, I would definitely not stand in your way.
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it wasn't all good news.
SPEAKER_01: So even though I was attracted to you, and I mean, like now that I'm 49, I realize you are quite young.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
SPEAKER_03: Belatedly.
SPEAKER_01: For me at 34, it was obvious you were quite a bit older.
SPEAKER_01: Like you were getting gray at that point.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you had kids who were teenagers and um and in their twenties.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And when you and I first had a conversation, I was pregnant with my younger son.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's still three years before we got together.
SPEAKER_01: But I had young kids, and your kids were older.
SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I had to consider as we started getting more serious was do you really want to take on the task of helping to raise these young kids when you've already gotten past that phase of life yourself?
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't want to burden you with kids you didn't want.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I hate to say this, but every human being makes a transition from being a parent to being in grandparent mode at some point.
SPEAKER_00: So, in a way, even though I didn't see myself as your children's grandparent.
SPEAKER_03: Oh God.
SPEAKER_00: Those same circuits are in me, that increasing care for the younger generation that actually extends beyond my own time as a parent.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And I think you remember I took pretty easily to it.
SPEAKER_00: Like I was a very enthusiastic step parent to your kids.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: You've been wonderful.
SPEAKER_01: How about from the outside?
SPEAKER_01: So from the inside, we are attracted to each other for obviously more than our bodies, more than our faces, which age and change, obviously.
SPEAKER_01: You know, I was always drawn to the fact that you were just a very kind, open-minded, patient, generous person.
SPEAKER_01: And you're smart, you know, you're conversant in all kinds of different topics, and you're musical, and you go to the gym, and you know, you had a lot of things that I was looking for.
SPEAKER_01: So the age was just, you know, it was a thing we obviously had to consider, and I still consider it regularly, you know.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_00: In different ways now.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: So I think about, you know, when I'm your age having a partner 15 years older, it will be it'll be a caretaking role, potentially, right?
SPEAKER_00: I'm 64, and when you're 64, I'll be 79.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I expect to be a healthy, fit, robust 79-year-old.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And that makes a big difference, right?
SPEAKER_01: So right now you're 64, you hear that number, and you're like, oof, that's an old person.
SPEAKER_01: But then you look at you and you are fit.
SPEAKER_01: You still run up and down the stairs, you can still play hockey.
SPEAKER_01: Your ass is the best ass in almost every room.
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you're you're not showing the signs of aging you might expect from a 64-year-old.
SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, I I don't really think about it all that much, other than the fact that, you know, we need to make sure that financially we're prepared for whatever happens when you get old and things get expensive.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have to say, it's becoming more real to me now.
SPEAKER_00: So throughout your life, you're aware that you're going to age, decline, and eventually die.
SPEAKER_00: But it's so far off in the distance when you're 20 and 30 and 40 and even at 50.
SPEAKER_00: But when there's a six in front of your age number, it really changes things.
SPEAKER_00: You know, I really feel how old I am when I do one of those enrollments online on your phone where there's a wheel.
SPEAKER_00: And so you pick, first of all, the date.
SPEAKER_00: So I pick my birth date, and then there's the month, and you pick the month, and then there's the wheel for the years.
SPEAKER_00: And I start spinning through that thing, and I go back through the 2000s, and I remember that well.
SPEAKER_00: I was in my 40s and the 1990s.
SPEAKER_00: I was an adult in the 1990s, and living life and establishing a business and finishing up school, and then there's the 80s, which I remember well, and the 70s, which I remember well, and the 60s, which I remember well.
SPEAKER_00: And I've memories attached to each one of those years as they fly by on the wheel, getting to 1961.
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm thinking about those abstractions of decline and death, and they're just a little more real.
SPEAKER_00: So I did a test a while ago, like a very, very comprehensive test with the Cleveland Clinic, where I've answered so many questions about my diet and my fitness habits and my health and my medical history family-wise, going back a couple of generations.
SPEAKER_00: And their estimation was that I would live to 97.
SPEAKER_01: Oh God.
SPEAKER_01: I don't think we're financially prepared for that.
SPEAKER_00: I think we are.
SPEAKER_00: But that's a separate podcast.
SPEAKER_01: We need to save more money.
SPEAKER_00: So, in a way, I could think that stage of life, that end stage of life, is still 30 something years away, maybe, but it's more real to me now in a way that it never was before.
SPEAKER_00: And in a way that I'm sure it isn't for you, even though you can worry about it, it's still an abstraction for you, I would think.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Although I do have to say that at 49, this is the year I started to feel older.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So perimenopause has been hitting me probably the past three years with bad hot flashes.
SPEAKER_01: You know, you wake up in the middle of the night just pouring sweat, inability to sleep, inability to focus.
SPEAKER_01: I just got the brain fog.
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I have menopause-induced ADHD at times, you know, irritability, lack of energy, lack of libido.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And so I am starting to feel older for the first time in my life.
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you're 15 years beyond me.
SPEAKER_01: So I can only imagine what a wreck I'll be by the time I'm your age.
SPEAKER_01: But the libido thing has become an issue in our relationship as well.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: And we did a podcast on that fairly recently.
SPEAKER_00: But it's like a moving target because you make peace with the differences in your libidos, both how much sex you want, what kinds of sex you want, how much effort you're willing to put into the preparation and all those things.
SPEAKER_00: But you think of it, okay, we've got it established now.
SPEAKER_00: We've got a working arrangement between your libido and my libido.
SPEAKER_00: But when they start changing, it becomes really complex.
SPEAKER_00: The old agreements don't quite work anymore, and you have to constantly renegotiate what your sex life means as you age.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: So speaking of sex, how has age been a factor for us in the lifestyle?
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: This is a lifestyle podcast.
SPEAKER_00: I feel like.
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about sex.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So we were non-monogamous from the beginning, but only accidentally so because you were in a sexual relationship with your best friend.
SPEAKER_00: And so I became the third in that two-way connection for a little while, just briefly, but it opened up for us the possibilities of bringing other people into our sex lives.
SPEAKER_00: And it made real, I think, a general desire that we had at the beginning that we would be open-minded sexually and experimental.
SPEAKER_00: So with Melissa, we got the chance to do that right away and see what it looks like in action.
SPEAKER_00: But we didn't know what the lifestyle was.
SPEAKER_00: We didn't know where you would pursue it until we went to hedonism.
SPEAKER_00: And then we had some experiences there.
SPEAKER_00: We saw that there was a community, and we learned about how to connect with people back home.
SPEAKER_00: So when we did that, we somehow ended up building connections with people who were in my age group.
SPEAKER_00: So at that time, in their 50s.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So that was probably in part because you were doing all the online searches.
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have the patience for that.
SPEAKER_01: So you would bring couples to me that you had chosen and we'd meet them.
SPEAKER_01: And I guess that you were kind of searching for people who were like you.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so for a long time, we were in a group of people who were lovely and we had lots of fun sexual experiences with them, but they were largely people of your age.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And we still have connections with some of them.
SPEAKER_00: But you also let me know at that stage that you wanted to build connections with people that were more your age.
SPEAKER_00: And again, lots of couples wouldn't deal with this.
SPEAKER_00: They're within five years of each other, I think, typically.
SPEAKER_00: So they don't have to consider that.
SPEAKER_00: But for us, it was a real factor.
SPEAKER_00: Are we going to shop in this aisle at the lifestyle supermarket or this aisle?
SPEAKER_00: And those aisles weren't even side by side.
SPEAKER_00: They were pretty far apart.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: So we were able to, maybe not with this explicit goal in mind, but we were able to start searching for people who would be more in my age group and quite quickly found a group of friends who were all around my age and some of them younger.
SPEAKER_01: So right now, the the two couples we're closest with are one of them is almost exactly my age, and the other couple is is younger than me, even.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So when we're in our, you know, our group of closest friends, you are the oldest by like 15 years.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And so that was great because again, the same feelings I had about having a wife who was younger and hotter.
SPEAKER_00: It's pretty ego gratifying to have a lifestyle circle that's younger and hotter.
SPEAKER_00: Again, not that hotness necessarily equates one-to-one with age.
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
SPEAKER_00: But it just is a factor.
SPEAKER_00: It's one of the factors that's at play there.
SPEAKER_00: So it was kind of gratifying for me.
SPEAKER_00: I've got pictures of myself with women who are in your category that I've had sex with, and part of me wants to share them with all my friends.
SPEAKER_01: Look who I fucked last weekend.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like because I'll share with them abstractly what it's like to be non-monogamous and in the lifestyle.
SPEAKER_00: But I just feel like, oh, if I could show them a picture of me with Bay or me with Mrs.
SPEAKER_00: H, or I mean, there's others too that I would be very proud to show off if I was that kind of person.
SPEAKER_00: But I'm not.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, part of why we work with that group is because you are very sexy.
SPEAKER_01: Like you do bring something to the party sexually.
SPEAKER_01: It's not just your brain.
SPEAKER_01: Your body is very much in line with the, oh, I hate even saying this, but like the caliber of bodies in that group.
SPEAKER_01: They're fit people who look fabulous naked.
SPEAKER_01: And you don't stand out as not fitting in with that caliber.
SPEAKER_01: I'm having a hard time saying this without like body shaming, but yeah, like you fit in.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: You've got a great body, you got a great cock, you're very strong.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And that's very lovely to hear, obviously.
SPEAKER_00: But I do become aware of my age at certain times.
SPEAKER_00: So we got together for a party at friends of ours in Ottawa.
SPEAKER_00: And this was, and I say party, lifestyle party means three days together of fucking all the stuff that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00: It's a whole weekend.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was built around a broader party where lots of guests came in.
SPEAKER_00: But I do remember when the six of us were sitting around the island and just chatting away, and they have a big mirror behind their island, and catching a glimpse of myself and just being very suddenly reminded, oh, one of the people in this group of six is 15 years older than everyone else in the group.
SPEAKER_00: And it leapt out at me, and partly it hit me so strongly because there were other differences.
SPEAKER_00: So one of them was that I was the only one who wasn't a drinker.
SPEAKER_00: So it was clear that everyone else around the table was just taking another drink whenever it was offered, and they were feeling the social lubricant effects and laughing and joking and talking over each other.
SPEAKER_00: And then there was quiet Liam, also the oldest guy there.
SPEAKER_00: And so age can be a multiplier of other differences that are at play in a social group.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I'm aware of that.
SPEAKER_01: And for a long time I thought it was just because you don't drink.
SPEAKER_01: You know, so everybody else is laughing and partying and and being kind of raucous, and you're quiet because you're not uninhibited by alcohol.
SPEAKER_00: Also because I'm that way to begin with.
SPEAKER_00: So if we were all magically put back to the age of 23, so we were a group of six, 23-year-olds, I'd probably still be the outlier there because I never did drink.
SPEAKER_01: I would have been with you back then.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: I always was a person who connects one-on-one better than in groups.
SPEAKER_00: I don't like muscling my way into a group conversation.
SPEAKER_00: Something that's kind of like an athletic endeavor for those of you who love it doesn't really work for me.
SPEAKER_00: So I would have had that feeling of difference, but then you add age to it and it just it makes it different.
SPEAKER_01: And one of the differences I'm seeing is when we go to these weekend long things, you will kind of budget the energy for one night of play and then tell me, I'm gonna go to bed early tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01: You're on your own.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And thankfully, that's fine.
SPEAKER_01: You know, everyone in our group is, you know, cool with playing separately and um and I don't mind it anymore.
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, of course I would like you to be there with me.
SPEAKER_01: I would like us to have equal energy levels and, you know, equal amounts of fun.
SPEAKER_01: It makes me feel a little bit sad sometimes that you can't be there with me and that you're missing out on the fun.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_01: But I'm I'm also, you know, at peace with the fact that that's really what you want to do.
SPEAKER_01: That's your best scenario for um for having the most amount of fun you can have at this stage of your life.
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it does take you out of the party.
SPEAKER_01: And when I'm the only one without a partner, I'm aware of that.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And again, I don't know if that would have been different if we were all 23-year-olds.
SPEAKER_00: I might have had, even back then, even with the promise of sex and my much higher libido at the time, I might have still been budgeting my energy for that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00: So I have limitless energy for lots of different things in life, for exercise, for artistic endeavors, but maybe not for social things.
SPEAKER_00: I do get, as kind of an introvert, tapped out earlier than most people.
SPEAKER_01: But before we leave that weekend in Ottawa, that night you spent a lot of time in the bedroom with one of the youngest, hottest guests at that party.
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm just trying to think how that came to be.
SPEAKER_00: Why do you think it was?
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, you could say daddy issues.
unknown: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: I'm not against That's an easy throwaway.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not against leveraging that.
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you two were having a long conversation earlier in the evening when it was still social, and you could see her getting very comfortable with you.
SPEAKER_01: And you have that effect on people.
SPEAKER_01: You ask lots of questions and you're really interested in in people and their stories.
SPEAKER_01: And that's very attractive to women.
SPEAKER_01: You know, women are, I think, not really used to that in a man, you know, someone who's truly focused on them, paying attention to them, asking them questions that show that they're listening and not trying to make sexual advances.
SPEAKER_01: So you make people feel safe that way.
SPEAKER_01: And um, I think for for women who are not used to that or who have, you know, had more experience with men who are driving toward a sexual goal, it feels nice and easy to be with you.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe for women who are more demisexual in their preferences.
SPEAKER_00: But I also wonder, I can't help but wonder, if my age actually helps.
SPEAKER_00: Does it make a woman feel safer at a deep body level?
SPEAKER_00: Like I can let go a bit more and trust a bit more, and then maybe be open to things happening that I wouldn't be so much if I was more on my guard against advances.
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you have the feeling of a safe person.
SPEAKER_01: And we've had lots of our friends in the lifestyle say that to you.
SPEAKER_01: Lots of women, especially who maybe even have trauma in their background, have trusted you because you feel safe.
unknown: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Having said that, I do feel a bit like for every woman for whom it works as an advantage, there are maybe five or ten for whom it's a disadvantage.
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's what I was feeling that day in Ottawa when I looked in the mirror and was thinking about that party and all these new people coming in that night.
SPEAKER_00: And I've often thought of it in terms of my hockey career.
SPEAKER_00: So my hockey career being a strictly amateur adult recreational league hockey career since I was a teenager.
SPEAKER_01: We're not talking NHL here.
SPEAKER_00: No, and never on the NHL track or the AHL track or the ECHL track.
SPEAKER_00: Just for those of you who know your tiers of hockey.
SPEAKER_00: But as I was in my 50s and playing rec league hockey, I was still playing with guys in their 20s and 30s.
SPEAKER_00: And it became very disheartening that they would line up against me and maybe the puck goes into the corner, and I know I'm losing every foot race.
SPEAKER_00: So the connection with the lifestyle is I feel like since I've joined your younger age division, I feel like I would like some time in the senior leagues of the lifestyle where I feel like, oh, I'm like in the upper echelon.
SPEAKER_00: Here, you know, from fitness level or whatever, that I'm more competitive, I guess is what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_00: And so I do miss that.
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you brought me into a cohort that was younger and has so many great qualities and has been so satisfying to me, not just because the people are younger, but because they're actually wonderful people, but age is a part of it.
SPEAKER_00: But I just think, wow, what if what if I was in an over 60 room of lifestyle people?
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I could knock the ball out of the park with bad group.
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: I like achievement.
SPEAKER_00: I would sometimes like to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.
SPEAKER_01: I get that.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is what it is.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if opportunities will come up in that regard as we continue to navigate our way through, but it is something I think about.
SPEAKER_00: And I am really curious to be with a woman my own age.
SPEAKER_00: So if you think of a kink, so many guys work in the opposite direction.
SPEAKER_00: Whoa, I'd like to be with a woman who's like 20 years younger than me or whatever.
SPEAKER_00: But for me, it's the opposite.
SPEAKER_00: It'd be like the kinky side of me thinks, oh, I'd like to be with a 64-year-old woman or a 70-year-old woman.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Like if the attraction's there.
SPEAKER_01: Well, can you imagine if it went the other way if you went 15 years older?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's hard.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, 79.
SPEAKER_01: But that's what I'm gonna have to do at your age.
SPEAKER_00: I know, but I'm I'm working really hard to make it good for you.
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I guess the thing is I'm not talking about whether it's uh a specific thing that's going to happen or about a specific person, but just as a general wish that I'm putting out there into the universe, I would like that experience.
SPEAKER_00: It would feel hot to me.
SPEAKER_01: Well, you had that opportunity when you were doing this separate dating with you know, finding women online.
SPEAKER_01: You went on a few dates with people around your age, didn't you?
SPEAKER_00: One was a woman my age.
SPEAKER_00: But she was so weird that it was not what I was fantasizing about.
SPEAKER_00: Let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_01: All right.
SPEAKER_01: Well, you still are free to do that.
SPEAKER_01: Go find an older woman.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it does remind me of a woman named Carrie who we met at hedonism a long time ago.
SPEAKER_00: So I don't think we've ever told that story in the podcast.
SPEAKER_00: I was in my late fifties at the time, and we were around the big hot tub at hedonism.
SPEAKER_00: It's nighttime, and there are people sitting around the edge, and lots of women are giving their men blowjobs, lots of men are giving their women oral sex.
SPEAKER_00: And we're doing kind of that.
SPEAKER_00: And then I see a woman come into the pool, and she's older, and she's with her husband, she sits down, and then another man comes in and sits pretty close to her.
SPEAKER_00: Like it's attention getting.
SPEAKER_00: He's awful close to her.
SPEAKER_00: And then I start analyzing the angles of their shoulders and realizing, oh, if I'm not mistaken, her hand is in his lap, and then I was seeing his hand in her lap, then she came over and asked your permission to give me a blowjob, and then put some ice cubes into her mouth and gave me that kind of temperature-inflected blowjob.
SPEAKER_00: So it was nice, but it was more her freedom when I saw her across the pool that turned me on.
SPEAKER_01: And did we explain that this woman looked very much like your stereotypical grandma?
SPEAKER_01: Like she had the shortcut perm and was at least 70.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we debated.
SPEAKER_00: I thought she was 64 at the time, which was five years older than me or more.
SPEAKER_01: And you got that number from her, or you just randomly pick 64 out of a hat.
SPEAKER_00: Just like you picked 70 out of your hat.
SPEAKER_01: So at least it's round.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, let's say she was in her late 60s, early 70s.
SPEAKER_00: So the next day, when I got in the pool, I'm talking to her, I'm talking to her husband, but her hand is sure enough on my thigh, working its way up.
SPEAKER_00: Soon she's stroking my cock.
SPEAKER_00: I am turned on out of my mind by this, let's say, 70-year-old woman.
SPEAKER_00: And so as we had this conversation, the husband said, We'd love to get together with the two of you later.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just going, Oh no.
SPEAKER_03: Like Kate is not touching his gun.
SPEAKER_00: He is not her type in any way, shape, or form.
SPEAKER_00: So this is not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't just an age thing.
SPEAKER_00: He was also overweight and Yeah, there was a few things going on.
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I asked you, and you said no.
SPEAKER_00: I said, Of course, I understand completely.
SPEAKER_00: So I went back and I told them, and then I saw them leaving the next day, and I felt a really deep empathic sadness because I could picture her, of course, I have no idea what's going on in her mind, but I could picture her thinking, oh, I'm too old for the lifestyle, and you know, no one's really interested in this old lady anymore, and maybe we should call it quits.
SPEAKER_00: And I felt like running up to her and saying, I hope you're not feeling bad about yourself.
SPEAKER_00: I felt so much lust for you, but because it didn't work between your husband and my wife, I didn't even proposition you, but I would have, and if I'd thought of it at the time, I would have said, Hey, are you open to playing separately?
SPEAKER_00: But of course, we weren't at that stage in our journey at that point.
SPEAKER_01: So I told you you could go back to the room with them, and you thought it would be weird to be a third.
SPEAKER_00: I did not want to be a third with them.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I was I was really interested in her.
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, the point of the story is The point of the story is that it is possible to misjudge your appeal because of age.
SPEAKER_00: So you start aging out in the lifestyle, not because other people are perceiving you as too old, but because you're self-disqualifying.
SPEAKER_00: So again, I'm guessing what might have been going on with her, but the lust I felt was real.
SPEAKER_00: Like I was rarely that turned on in the lifestyle.
SPEAKER_01: And have you been able to carry this lesson forward into your own life?
SPEAKER_01: Because I know you have disqualified yourself in situations where there were people who wanted to have sex with you, but you thought, oh, they're probably just here for Kate.
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, I have.
SPEAKER_01: So have you been able to remember that lesson of the No, I have not.
SPEAKER_00: I remember it as a really great story.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: But not as something that I can actually apply in my own case.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: So let's just reiterate that you don't necessarily know your appeal do any of them.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And because you're attracted to older guys, you've probably looked at younger guys and said no.
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Like so different from you know, most men would say the younger the better.
SPEAKER_00: And so that's not always the case.
SPEAKER_00: Definitely not the case with me.
SPEAKER_00: But for you, younger is like a disadvantage.
SPEAKER_00: The guy would have to be really fantastic.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: If he was even like 10 years younger.
SPEAKER_00: So you think, wow, 49 years old and you can be with a 39-year-old, wouldn't that be exciting?
SPEAKER_01: And your answer is kind of well, the guy I was with who was the the the youngest, so he was twelve years younger than me.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was very attractive, had a very nice cock, but I didn't find him that interesting.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: Not that we had many long conversations.
SPEAKER_01: I I'm just not super drawn to younger people.
SPEAKER_01: I guess my stereotype of younger men is that they're gonna be too graspy, um, not intellectually interesting, but obviously like that's not universally true.
SPEAKER_01: So but yeah, I just I'm not super attracted to people younger than me.
SPEAKER_01: Um when I was dating online though, I did go out with a few men who were younger and had sex with them, you know, people like ten years younger than me.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
SPEAKER_01: Um so I don't know w what they were responding to in me.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they like the older woman, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a big thing going.
SPEAKER_00: I'm hearing in our society from different places that there is a big trend of younger men being interested in older women.
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, f for for one of these guys, I was his first anal sex ever.
SPEAKER_01: I gave him his first threesome ever, and I think I only had three dates with him.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So so in the course of three dates, I rocked his world.
SPEAKER_00: And he was a very cool guy.
SPEAKER_00: So you would look at him and say, Oh, you're probably doing all the things out there on the dating scene.
SPEAKER_01: And oh yeah, and I brought him in to do a photography session with us and another couple, and he ended up in a five fivesum.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I rocked that guy's world.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So wouldn't want that.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And that might be what's going on for him, it was a reality, but for a lot of young men, it might just be a fantasy of oh, here's a woman who is completely relaxed in her sexuality, more experimental than the women my own age.
SPEAKER_00: So of course that's very much a generalization, but I can see it going on.
SPEAKER_01: If you're interested in lifestyle travel, but wondering if there's an alternative to the pounding bass and non-stop drinking of heto and desire, we have great news for you.
SPEAKER_01: At Sapio Tours, we take small groups of non-monogamous couples to destinations of cultural interest in Europe, like France and Italy, and Greece.
SPEAKER_01: It's the best of both worlds.
SPEAKER_01: You get excursions you can actually tell your kids about, and the sexual opportunities that will be your little secret.
SPEAKER_01: If that sounds like something you might like, go to sapioturs.com s-a-p-i-o-t-o-s.com to find out more and to get on our mailing list.
SPEAKER_00: Great.
SPEAKER_00: And now back to the monogamous marriage podcast.
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so here's the big question.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: When, if ever, do you age out of the lifestyle?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're clinging on to our friend group for dear life.
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't please don't leave us.
SPEAKER_01: Um, because in my mind, you just age up with the friends you have.
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the solution to the aging out thing.
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, we lead these trips where we both have to bring in people who are going to be appealing to the other people in the group.
SPEAKER_01: So we have to have a bit of an age cap as we interview these people.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And it's an interesting phenomenon that people have more liberty and more money to take trips like this the older they get.
SPEAKER_00: So you've got that conflict there that you want to keep the group attractive enough for all the fellow travelers without having a ridiculously high standard.
SPEAKER_00: But the ideal customer of yours with their disposable income and the available time is generally skewing older.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: So in groups like that, you know, is there ever a point where you say, uh, I don't think I'm sexually viable anymore, or I'm not gonna put myself out there anymore because it's too risky?
SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
SPEAKER_00: Well, the tricky thing is because with most couples, again, if they're five years apart, they're basically in the same age range.
SPEAKER_00: So they're looking at the issue from the same perspective and making a similar decision together about how they will adapt their lifestyle practice.
SPEAKER_00: But for us, it's different because you look and say, okay, so Liam might be aging out now at 64.
SPEAKER_00: But does that mean you have to age out?
SPEAKER_00: So you're in your prime in a way at 49.
SPEAKER_00: Definitely you are, because you know you are very complimentary of me, but you have stayed extraordinarily fit, and there isn't literally a day that goes by in our household where I don't see you naked and go, holy fuck.
SPEAKER_00: And just objectively, you look amazing.
SPEAKER_00: So are you going to be held back by me?
SPEAKER_00: So you have to age out of the lifestyle because guess what?
SPEAKER_00: You're attached to a guy who's definitely aging out of the lifestyle.
SPEAKER_00: Or the inverse is do I hang on too long like an athlete who doesn't know when to call it quits because I have a wife who's still getting me into these attractive milieu because she's 49 and fit and hot, but I don't really belong there anymore.
SPEAKER_00: So it's a complex question for us.
SPEAKER_00: More complex than for most couples.
SPEAKER_01: So how do you see it actually going for us?
SPEAKER_01: The life we have, the friends we have, is there is there a stop time?
SPEAKER_00: So the the problem is we're all getting older together, but as you saw, the difference between us at 34 and 49, those same 15 years are very different at 49 and 64.
SPEAKER_00: So if we have friends who we met when you were 45 like them, and I was just about to turn 60, now five years later, it's like the difference is I get what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: You know, when we got together, you seemed older to me, but you were still 49.
SPEAKER_01: You were fit, you were young, healthy, hot, right?
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it it's definitely your age is getting more visible on your face.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And it's I don't know.
SPEAKER_01: I I feel like it's a thing that our friends can look past.
SPEAKER_00: But for how long?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: That's the thing.
SPEAKER_01: Uh do you worry it becomes like charitable sex eventually?
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, we like Liam.
SPEAKER_01: He's been around for a long time.
SPEAKER_01: So we'll just hop on that dick if it gets hard.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And all you have to do is do it for three minutes because he can't take much more than that, and then he'll crawl off to bed, and then we can do what we really want to do with the hot Kate Monogonish.
SPEAKER_01: But is that the worst thing though?
SPEAKER_01: It's not the worst thing.
SPEAKER_00: But it can become worse in ways that you don't imagine.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess the remedy for me is having friends that you feel confident of, so that you you believe that they love you for you.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, the fact that you have a nice body is a great bonus.
SPEAKER_01: But the more the years go by, the more they know you for a human being and not a body, um, the more security I feel that if my ass starts to slide down my legs, that they'll still like me and want to have me around.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I could be doing everyone a favor because because I'm there being my old self, suddenly you feel younger looking.
SPEAKER_00: You take a glance in my direction.
SPEAKER_00: I may be doing that service for the entire friend group.
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
SPEAKER_01: Everyone's like, at least I'm not as old as Liam.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: When I would visit my parents in the seniors' home, I felt young and strapping because we're relativists as human beings.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: We gauge where we're at by where other people are at.
SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of doing a service, maybe for you.
SPEAKER_01: Is that the charitable way of when you're so let's say that by the time you get to the senior's home, we're definitely not swinging anymore.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I know, but what's that place in Florida called, the villages?
SPEAKER_01: When it's like Oh, yeah, with the golf carts and the ribbons.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the special and the STIs circulating among all of them.
SPEAKER_01: I'm not moving there.
SPEAKER_02: No.
SPEAKER_01: What I can say is that I hope that when the time comes for us to stop fucking other people, that we'll be in agreement, that we'll both feel like, yes, we've gotten what we wanted to get out of this.
SPEAKER_01: We will probably continue to have friends that we made during this period of our lives, but we don't necessarily need to or want to have sex with them anymore.
SPEAKER_01: And there won't be conflict around this.
SPEAKER_01: But I also can imagine you doing what you have done and just saying, you know what, I'm gonna stay back.
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go to bed early.
SPEAKER_01: You go ahead and and have fun.
SPEAKER_01: And you've done that with gracious open heartedness, and I don't feel any resentment coming from you.
SPEAKER_01: So I think we um, you know, we just keep going until we stop being invited to places.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm very comfortable with that.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the wonderful thing about the lifestyle.
SPEAKER_00: I have said with our Sapio Tourist trips, if I start to be a marketing liability in terms of attracting the kind of people that you want on the trips, I'd be very happy if you found a hot young guy or a hot young woman, probably people would love that too, who was your co-host.
SPEAKER_00: And I don't go on the trips because I have lots of fun things to do on my own.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking about masturbation here.
SPEAKER_00: I have so many creative projects I'm always dying to get to.
SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't feel at all cast aside if we made the decision that it's best for you to go with that person to create the vibe and energy for the guests on a Sapio Tourist trip.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: The one group I can see this being a difficulty for is the people who are more down to fuck.
SPEAKER_01: So the people who just show up at an event and hope to find someone to have sex with.
SPEAKER_01: The older you get with those short timelines, the harder it's going to be for you to find people that are immediately attracted to you if you're visibly looking older, right?
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: But guess who never was DTF is.
SPEAKER_01: I know, but I'm trying to universalize this for our audience.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: So if if you're not out there making good friends, I think the issue of aging out is going to become something that it'll happen to you.
SPEAKER_01: You just won't get offers.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing that seems or that feels really lucky to me.
SPEAKER_00: I love the friends we've accumulated in the lifestyle quite independent of whatever sexual opportunity there might be.
SPEAKER_00: And so I feel very confident that those friendships will continue on and morph in different directions and maybe be less sexual in the long term.
SPEAKER_00: But another important thing to remember is when you think of sex, you think of the visual for sure.
SPEAKER_00: But there's also a sensory element.
SPEAKER_00: And so if you're in the dark or in friendly lighting, and if your eyes are closed and those fingertips are touching the right areas of your body, the age of the other person or the age of you yourself, if you can get out of your own way psychologically, all those nerve endings are really well preserved.
SPEAKER_00: They do not degrade, at least as far as I've been able to see so far.
SPEAKER_00: So the promise is that.
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
SPEAKER_01: Right?
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
SPEAKER_00: But if you're aging with another group, then you can still have access to that closed eyes time and place where it can be just as magical as it was 20 years earlier.
SPEAKER_00: I'm saying this really to you too, not just to our friends and lifestyle.
SPEAKER_01: Close your eyes, babe.
SPEAKER_01: I'm still hot.
SPEAKER_01: I can still do magical things.
SPEAKER_00: I can still do magical things to your body.
SPEAKER_00: And also I'm still psychologically capable because so much of what appeals to us sexually is what's going on in our minds.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's all I have to say about that.
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's how you know a monogamous marriage podcast is finished because we haven't solved anything.
SPEAKER_00: And we haven't given any advice to anyone because that's what we do.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we just we overthink around in circles and then eventually look at the clock.
SPEAKER_00: Blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, anyway, I'm just gonna say I love you, sweetie.
SPEAKER_00: You're amazing.
SPEAKER_00: I'm super happy to be on this age plus 15 years journey with you.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love you, old man.
SPEAKER_01: Bye.
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
SPEAKER_01: If you want to get in touch with us or follow any of our socials, we now have so many we cannot list them.
SPEAKER_01: So we've put them all together in one handy place.
SPEAKER_01: If you go to katemonogamish.com, you'll see all of our ventures.
SPEAKER_01: Our Instagram, Twitter, OnlyFans, Travel Company, uh, Patreon, blog and podcast, all the stuff we do.
SPEAKER_00: During this episode, we talked about our travel business because we're so excited about it.
SPEAKER_00: But we want to take a moment to remind you that there are other individuals putting together amazing lifestyle travel opportunities.
SPEAKER_00: Ones that we have personally taken advantage of.
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about Room77, Life.com, who runs their Misla Muharis hotel takeovers.
SPEAKER_00: Casual swingers, who put together unbelievable events every April at Hedonism.
SPEAKER_00: Naughty Jim, who put together the Be Better at Being Bad event, also at Hedonism.
SPEAKER_00: And Libertine Events, who put together Podcast Ocloza, or PCAP.
SPEAKER_00: So keep that in mind as you're considering your travel.
SPEAKER_00: If Sapio Tours doesn't work for you, there are other great opportunities available.
SPEAKER_01: Go out there and meet all kinds of people and build your community.
SPEAKER_01: Bye.
SPEAKER_00: Bye!