WEBVTT 00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:04.320 Welcome to the Monogamous Marriage Podcast. 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:09.359 We're Kate and Liam, married bisexuals a decade into our non-monogamous journey. 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:14.320 We've been having sex with our friends for years, and we're still madly in love with each other. 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:20.559 We're the authors of the Monogamous Marriage Blog, where we've been overthinking sex and love since 2016. 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:25.440 This podcast is the place where we process our sexual adventures in real time. 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:30.480 We are not experts, and nothing we say should be mistaken for professional advice. 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:36.320 The show contains mature language and sexual content, so if you're under 18, it isn't for you. 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:43.039 But if you're a fellow overthinker and you're not freaked out by unfiltered conversation, you're gonna feel right at home. 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:51.920 Last month we had a really interesting experience with Catherine from Expansive Connection. 00:00:52.079 --> 00:01:00.399 So she has been our therapist through some difficult chapters in our life together, some of which were played out on this very podcast. 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:01.439 They all were. 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:02.240 Yes. 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:13.680 But this was more of a let's get together and have a fun experimental experience rather than let's get together and try to save our relationship. 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:20.159 And that was to have an MDMA-assisted therapy session. 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:21.120 Yes. 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:27.599 So we need to back up and tell a couple stories before we get to the actual therapy session. 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:28.400 Let's do that. 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:40.719 So the first is we have decided to do a couples retreat in Whistler, BC with only past customers of Sapio Tours, so people we know well. 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:45.280 And the idea is that we will come together in the mountains. 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:54.560 Catherine will lead us in the morning through couples coaching, where we'll do some journaling and some group discussions and some small group sharing. 00:01:54.799 --> 00:02:09.120 And then at the end of the week, we will all do an MDMA assisted therapy where she'll lead us through some tantra and we will read our journals to each other, to our partners in that open-hearted state. 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:14.800 And for the people who don't know what MDMA is, it's not exactly a psychedelic. 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:16.319 We call it an empathogen. 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:20.639 So something that encourages greater connection between human beings. 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:21.120 Yeah. 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:33.360 So it releases serotonin and dopamine, which make you feel good, but also increase your um, you know, kind of feelings of connectedness and love, open heartedness. 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:35.919 It takes away your fear and shame. 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:46.800 And so we've found it just in our own use very therapeutic and helpful for us as we've talked through some of the things that have been difficult for us when we're sober. 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:53.039 And um, so we're really excited about doing this with a group and bringing this to a place where it is legal. 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:54.560 British Columbia, Canada. 00:02:55.120 --> 00:03:05.360 And and then having the option after to touch each other because it also increases your good feelings on your body and um makes sex pretty fantastic. 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:07.439 So I'm so excited about this. 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:09.360 I want to pay you to go there. 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:14.639 And I'm your assistant, I get to go for free, but it's just yeah, it's gonna be unbelievable. 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.319 So that made us think we should do something of a dress rehearsal. 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:19.360 Is that what we would call it? 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:19.759 Yeah. 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:25.919 So Catherine didn't have a lot of experience in leading these MDMA assisted therapy sessions. 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:27.919 She hasn't had the opportunity. 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:40.000 So as part of her practice and part of our trying to figure out what would the best um format be for this with a group, we decided to do a practice session with her. 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:45.759 And then the second context we need is that we had just come out of a women's retreat. 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:48.879 So Catherine and I lead women's retreats together. 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:54.560 And we had just done a three-day retreat in the mountains of Tennessee with 29 women. 00:03:54.800 --> 00:04:14.879 And it was, as it always is, this life-changing experience, you know, being in a group of women that are just there to be open and explore and are finding peace and joy in their bodies, some of them for the first time, feeling sensual pleasure, just being joyful and free. 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:15.680 I don't know. 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:17.360 I love watching it happen. 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.319 And you you see it happen inevitably over the course of three days. 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.120 Right. 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:25.680 So I had come off the high of this. 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:36.639 And one of the reasons I was on a high was because I had made a really um intense connection, both socially and sexually, with one of the women there. 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:37.759 Right. 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:38.480 Yes. 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:57.839 So now we're in Catherine's therapy space and we take MDMA, and one of the preparations we had done on the afternoon was to write a letter to ourselves from fear, as if fear was writing the note. 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.480 What does our fear want us to know? 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.480 What is our fear afraid of in our futures? 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:07.519 So we also did a letter from love. 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:09.120 Love and desire. 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:10.000 And desire. 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:14.319 But for the purposes of this podcast, we're just going to focus on the fear one. 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:19.759 So why don't you just tell me what you wrote down in your letter from fear? 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:24.000 I wrote this journal sober during the afternoon. 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:40.240 And what came up was, I am afraid, that had I been able to live in a different world, so a different time, a different religious structure, a different family, I would have been a lesbian. 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:40.959 Right. 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:49.600 Um, and that I have lived my whole life trying to figure out how to have relationships with men. 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:55.680 And, you know, you're my third husband, so I've had some real failures. 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.000 Well, you certainly expended an admirable amount of effort. 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:00.720 Yep. 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:03.519 And I've had a lot of sex with a lot of men. 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:16.319 And there's always been something missing, something that felt like I wasn't quite connecting in the way I felt I was capable of connecting. 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:17.040 Right. 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:36.319 And so it became clear as I was writing this letter that um I was really grieving the possibility of having lived a different life and not just in different relationships, but that I internally could have had a different relationship with myself. 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:36.879 Right. 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:46.560 That I could have maybe felt more comfortable in my body, more in tune with my own sexuality and pleasure, because I'm so focused on other people. 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.600 I I often say, Don't worry about me, I'm not gonna come. 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:50.160 Right. 00:06:50.399 --> 00:07:07.519 And if I had been more authentic and been able to follow, as I trace it back, maybe my most authentic sexual desires and been with women, maybe I could have had a different relationship with sex. 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:08.000 Right. 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:13.360 So how much of that wondering was inspired by the Glenn Doyle story? 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:20.240 Um You can briefly tell her story for those in the audience who don't know her. 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:25.199 She's a big person in your life in terms of influence. 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:25.839 Okay. 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:44.639 I hadn't thought about it that way, but uh Glenn and Doyle is an author and a podcaster, and she was married to a man for a long time and then had this moment where Abby Wombach, who is an Olympic soccer player, walked in the room, and the thing that popped into her head was there she is. 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:52.639 And there was this moment of awakening and recognition that this was the person she was supposed to be with. 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:57.439 And she broke up her marriage and, you know, became a lesbian. 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:04.319 And um, I read that book in March of 2020, right at the beginning of the pandemic, and it spoke to me. 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:09.120 And I don't know that I would have said at the time it was because of that lesbian awakening in her. 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:17.439 I think it was more about just like the freedom she described, like the breaking free of the chains or the box that society puts you in. 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:19.439 But yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way. 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:34.559 Yeah, but I think of her as being a precursor for you, providing maybe a mental model for someone who has lived their life as a heterosexual person, basically, although we're going to go through your same-sex history and it is substantial. 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:51.919 But that she was a precursor of a person who kind of switched tracks and felt more at home in her body once she had aligned her sexuality with her being, I guess is a way I would describe it. 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.480 Anyway, it's only conjecture on my part that you might have been inspired by her. 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:01.279 Yeah, I I wouldn't give her too much credit in in that regard. 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:07.519 So, as you said, I've got a long history of sexual and emotional attraction to women. 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:11.120 My first sexual experience was with another girl. 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:23.440 I've told this story before, but we were like six years old, I think it was first grade, and she went upstairs and got a Hustler magazine from her dad's closet. 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:33.840 And we looked through it, and there was this um photo essay of a woman who was like the mistress of the house and she was seducing her maid. 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:37.440 And, you know, it's very stereotypical, made for men, of course. 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:44.399 But as a six-year-old, I remember going through those photos and feeling a tingling. 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:50.799 And it was so powerful, like wanting to do something about that. 00:09:50.879 --> 00:10:07.679 And then she and I, this friend, um, for the next at least year, we would go down to the basement and hide behind a couch and play house, where we'd basically like dry hump each other and French kiss. 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:08.320 Right. 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:13.279 And, you know, as we got a little bit older, I showed her how to masturbate. 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:17.039 And I think we got as far as like taking pants off together. 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:25.200 And I remember that feeling in my body, that like heat and drive toward her. 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:29.440 And she and I stayed best friends up until eighth grade. 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:30.639 And I was jealous. 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:32.080 She had two different boyfriends. 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:34.480 I was so jealous of her boyfriends. 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:39.679 And we would stay after school with one of her boyfriends who I also had a crush on. 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:43.360 And I would play truth or dare with them. 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:47.360 So I would dare them to do sexual things to each other. 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:54.639 And at that time, like a sexual thing was like put your hand up her shirt or like put your hand down his pants or whatever. 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:57.519 And I would stand there with them watching. 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:10.480 Ugh, like, I don't know if I could drip with wetness at that age, but like dripping is kind of conveyed the feeling I had, like so turned on. 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:13.039 And it wasn't about him, it was about her. 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:13.519 Right. 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:17.440 Like I was making him do what I wanted to do to her. 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:18.240 Right. 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:19.120 Ugh. 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:22.559 So, you know, that could could maybe be my earliest threesome. 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.960 Maybe I've always been a little non-monogamous that way. 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:25.679 Right. 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:27.919 And then I put that away. 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:30.639 I felt guilty about that. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.200 And did you try to pray the gay away? 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:34.240 Of course I did. 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:35.440 Oh my goodness. 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.559 Please, Jesus, don't let me be a lesbian. 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:41.440 When I learned the word lesbian, I was really scared. 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:44.639 Because there was this recognition, like, oh, is that me? 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:46.080 Is that what I am? 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.960 And I think that was maybe fifth grade. 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:51.120 And so yeah, I prayed so hard. 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:52.960 Like, don't let me be that thing. 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:54.000 I'm curious. 00:11:54.240 --> 00:12:00.559 Do you remember being explicitly told that's wrong in your religious or family upbringing? 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:01.279 Yes. 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:01.759 Yeah. 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:08.559 And my parents were of the hate the sin, love the sinner kinds of Christians, right? 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:15.679 So they were compassionate to, you know, people who were living in sin or were tempted that way. 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:23.679 Um, but it was very clear from them and from the church that being a homosexual was a sin against God. 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:28.399 And we were to have compassion for those people, but we were also to judge their actions as wrong. 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:30.480 And you believe you were told that explicitly? 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:34.159 Because in my growing up, I think it was just understood. 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:42.960 I don't think anyone at church warned us not to be thinking lustful thoughts of same-sex individuals. 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.320 Later, I heard lots of anti-gay stuff, but yeah. 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.080 So I was just curious about what you had or hadn't heard explicitly. 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:50.799 Right. 00:12:51.120 --> 00:13:00.320 So compare and contrast that feeling I had for her to um my first boyfriend when I was 17. 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.399 And wow, there was no heat. 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:06.080 It was logical. 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:17.200 Like I made a pros and cons list for why I should or should not be in a relationship with this boy who I had grown up with in church. 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:20.000 So there were lots of things in the pro category. 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.279 Like our parents were friends, he believed the same things I believed. 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:25.360 And, you know, he was a nice guy. 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:26.799 And good looking. 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:27.679 Sure. 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:32.960 But our whole five years of marriage, I never had an orgasm with him. 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:33.360 Right. 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.759 And you could say it's just I didn't know how. 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:42.960 But I don't remember, and I could be, you know, seeing things wrong at this stage. 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:48.799 I don't remember that heat and that lust and that draw toward him. 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:54.879 So even when you never making out in the first time it slipped in, so you've told that story a few times. 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:56.879 It was two years into our relationship. 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:57.600 Oh, I know. 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:01.120 But you weren't feeling like a heat, like, get give me that thing. 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:02.159 Yeah, maybe. 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:02.720 Right. 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.519 But it wasn't as spontaneous as it had been with your best girlfriend. 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.080 It certainly didn't start out that way. 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:11.759 It was very logical. 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:15.600 Like, these are the reasons why I should date this boy. 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:16.080 Right. 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:20.159 So I wasn't consciously thinking I should make sure that I'm straight. 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:25.120 By then I had just dismissed those childhood things as like, oh, we were bad. 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:26.320 We did some bad things. 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:26.879 Right. 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:36.399 But anyway, once I started to open myself up to Melissa, and we've told this story of our first encounter where she and I were just friends. 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:38.799 We've been best friends for like three or four years. 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:45.039 And we got a little drunk one night and we went upstairs while my husband was downstairs. 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:51.519 And she kneeled in front of me and started kissing me and rubbing my pussy through my pants. 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:54.480 And I was just like, what is happening? 00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:00.399 But that same rush of heat came just like, like I can't breathe. 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:02.399 Like I'm so excited. 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.440 And it makes me emotional thinking about it. 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.519 Like it was such a contrast to the sex I had been having. 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:15.759 I think we took, took off our clothes down to our underwear and masturbated beside each other. 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.480 And yeah, that was such a powerful thing. 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:23.200 I um I went immediately to my husband, told him, hey, this crazy thing just happened. 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:28.720 But I could not, like I couldn't just say, oh, that was silly. 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:29.519 We were drunk. 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:31.519 Like I had to have more. 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:40.639 So I worked to get him to agree to have a threesome with her because that was the only way I could square it in my mind. 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:44.960 Like I have to have sex with her, but I can't cheat on my husband. 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:47.279 So we had threesomes for a while. 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.879 And then he said to me, I think you like her more than me. 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:51.519 Right. 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:53.919 And I couldn't say that he was wrong. 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:56.320 Um, so we broke up shortly after that. 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:05.600 And then there was that period of time where, you know, we were best friends and we were doing what best friends do, but we were also going back to her place and having sex after. 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:08.559 And that's when I met you. 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:09.120 Right. 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:09.519 Yeah. 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.000 She was a part of our first date story. 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:23.200 Not the first date where we sat in a restaurant and told each other our life stories, but the first time we went to enjoy an afternoon at a waterfront park. 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:29.919 And we had an intense sexual connection without having intercourse, but uh just an amazing time. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:39.360 And then you were so turned on you went back to her place and had sex with her and sent me video clips of the two of you together. 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:46.639 Yeah, so I knew at that point that there was something powerful here that I was not willing to put away again. 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:57.519 And so, you know, that was part of my condition when I talked to you about a relationship was that I have to continue to explore this in some way. 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:02.000 And I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I'm not willing to ignore it anymore. 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:08.240 So that was strong enough that it, you know, it became a condition of my life going forward. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:10.720 And by extension, a condition of my life. 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.359 Which turned out to be pretty awesome for both of us. 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:13.920 Yeah. 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:15.359 Short-lived though. 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.799 I don't think we had more than three threesomes together. 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:21.920 And you two might have played separately together. 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:25.039 But it brought us into the lifestyle. 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:26.480 Oh, absolutely. 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:33.039 It was like life-changing, but it wasn't this long extended exploration. 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:38.160 It was kind of like another brief stop on your same-sex journey. 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:51.759 So instead of having the continuity of your marriages, you were on the hetero train, but you kept stepping off at stations along the route, and those were like your various same-sex adventures. 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:55.839 So there was continuity, but it was not something that happened regularly for you. 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:56.400 Yeah. 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:02.400 And unfortunately, when we got into the lifestyle, it became very heteronormative, right? 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.279 Like it was very much couples swapping. 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:14.000 So the women might have a few minutes at the beginning to kiss each other and maybe even like lick each other's pussies for a minute or two. 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:22.160 But then the understanding in our practice was quite often that then you switch, and then I'm spending the majority of my time getting fucked by a man. 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:28.880 And so we finally got conscious about changing that script in Antigua. 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:29.680 Oh, okay. 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.119 So there were three couples who were all by. 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:35.200 So the men were by and the women were by. 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:46.400 And we decided that one night the men were gonna go out into the hot tub and the women were gonna go upstairs, and they were not the men were not allowed to come up until we called them. 00:18:46.640 --> 00:19:00.000 So the idea was we're going to take the the urgency of the male energy out of the room and give the women time to just enjoy each other as long as we wanted to. 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:06.960 And that was so powerful for me that I kind of fell in love with one of those women. 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:07.519 Right. 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:07.920 Right. 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:22.960 And I look back now, and you know, she's an awesome human, but probably a lot of the the power of that was the novelty of being in a space with another woman who was also very sapphic. 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.000 Like she had a lot of powerful sexual energy. 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.240 Without mentioning a name, who was the third woman in that room? 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:31.920 So there were three of us guys in the hot tub. 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:33.839 I can't remember who the third guy was. 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:35.359 The redhead. 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.799 Oh, okay. 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:37.599 Oh, okay. 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:40.000 So she is a firecracker herself. 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:40.240 Yeah. 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:41.599 Like super sexy. 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:53.119 But for some reason, you're with two women, both very sexy, but the sexiness of one just beams right into your soul in that experience. 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah. 00:19:54.319 --> 00:20:00.400 So both of us walked out of that room kind of shaky, feeling like, wow, something happened here. 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:04.000 You know, we talked about that in our bisexual episode. 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:04.640 Right. 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:06.960 And so who mentioned it to whom? 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:14.079 Like, did you say to her there's something that we should hold on to here that we shouldn't just let go? 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.640 Or did she say it to you, or was it a pure unspoken understanding? 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:20.319 Um, I don't know. 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:22.640 She said to me that night, I feel shaky. 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:23.839 Like, what just happened? 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:24.400 Right. 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:30.880 And um then they found out that we were gonna be at Naughty in New Orleans a couple weeks later, and they're like, Okay, we're coming. 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:31.359 Right. 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:34.240 Or or they were gonna be there and we said, Okay, we're coming. 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:35.359 I think we're the ones who signed up. 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.920 One of us had already signed up and the other one wasn't sure. 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:48.079 So anyway, so we continued to have a relationship for about a year and just like when we could see each other traveling and we went away together for five days to Miami. 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.400 And I was so deeply in love with her. 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:53.119 Right. 00:20:53.359 --> 00:21:11.440 And yeah, I I think it was the fact that I f for the first time ever had like one-on-one time with a woman that was this sexual intense thing that wasn't dependent on men. 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:17.440 And you know, there she was gorgeous, and we had a lot of things in common. 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:29.359 And I felt it was the first time you had sex with someone or a sexual connection with someone who you couldn't ultimately get a mortgage with someday. 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:34.640 So all of your other connections with men, because it's not like you have a long history. 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:37.599 You didn't date 25 guys before you married your first husband. 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:39.119 He was the first one you dated. 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:49.680 So there was him, your second husband, a boyfriend in between who I think you would have gone all the way to the altar with, and then me. 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.680 So there's all these guys who can get you something in life. 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:59.759 And I'm not saying that you were being acquisitive about it, but this was the first time there was no possibility of. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:07.599 That it was pure either lust or love or a delicious combination of the two that was driving you. 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.680 And I don't believe that you'd had that experience in your life. 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:13.200 There was always a practical dimension to your attractions before that. 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:13.680 Yeah. 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:17.519 So you said that was the first time I'd had sex with someone I couldn't get a mortgage with. 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:21.279 But you mean that was the first time I had been in love with someone I couldn't get a mortgage with? 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:21.759 Yes. 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:22.400 Right. 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:23.039 Yeah. 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:35.279 So um, so that was that was kind of life-altering for me to have this adult experience of a relationship that was both sexual and emotional for me. 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:46.400 And I came away from that heartbroken when it was over, but feeling like, wow, I discovered something about myself that it's not just a passing sexual attraction to women. 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:49.039 I can be deeply in love with a woman. 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:57.440 I could even imagine, if I weren't already married to you, living a life with a woman in a romantic partnership. 00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:58.559 Right. 00:22:58.799 --> 00:22:59.359 Yeah. 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.000 So that door closes, but other doors open. 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:06.400 So you've had other connections. 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:17.279 Now I would say that those connections have been circumscribed a bit by the hurt you experienced in that first intense all-in relationship with a woman. 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:18.640 Yeah, for sure. 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:21.599 Um, two years ago, I went away for a weekend with Mrs. 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:25.519 Honeyspoon and we talked very openly about it. 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:35.599 In fact, we recorded a podcast about it that we never released, um, where we, you know, tried to decide, are we going to be each other's girlfriend? 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.880 And what does that mean, practically speaking? 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:44.559 And the conclusion I came to at that time was I already love you as a friend. 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:56.400 And we have this beautiful dynamic between us where our husbands love each other, their besties, and and the four of us have a great social connection and sexual connection. 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:04.079 She and I had the ability to go away and have these, you know, times where that just the two of us were together sexually. 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:14.319 And I didn't want more than that because it made me afraid that I have the ability to have these really big feelings. 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:15.759 I discovered. 00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:23.279 And I I felt afraid of like hurting our relationship if things got too intense. 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:38.640 And, you know, that's kind of how it played out with my previous girlfriend, where when we broke up, I had, I would have guessed that we could be, we could continue to be friends after that the four of us had such great social chemistry that it would have been fine. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:40.960 It would have just been a slight pulling back. 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:42.000 But it wasn't that way. 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:43.200 It was just too painful. 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:49.359 And so I was really, really afraid of doing that to another group of friends. 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:52.960 I didn't want to explode our friend group that way. 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:53.519 Right. 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:59.680 So I've often said that I am capable of closing off my heart. 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:02.880 Like that door has to be deliberately opened. 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:08.160 I need to have permission to open that door, both from myself and from whoever I'm with. 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:11.200 And if the door is closed, it's it's really firmly closed. 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:11.759 Right. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.519 And, you know, I'm talking about my emotions here in in this cryptic way. 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:18.000 Yeah. 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.400 So I decided I needed to keep the door closed. 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:22.880 I couldn't open it fully for her. 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:23.279 Right. 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:25.599 And uh I don't know if that hurt her. 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:33.599 I think it did a little bit maybe, but I was just really, really scared of being hurt again and destroying a friendship again. 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:34.079 Right. 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:39.920 Well, it's that classic conundrum, which is do I risk it all for love? 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:54.880 The heights we can reach together, or the promise of those heights is so great, I'm going to risk that I may be blowing up a relationship, not just my own, but almost within a community, to attain that thing. 00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:59.920 So it's interesting that you could say, no, I'm gonna take the defensive position. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:07.839 I'm gonna protect what I already have and not try to grasp beyond that and maybe do damage. 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:09.039 Yeah. 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:14.880 And, you know, more recently I've had a weekend away with Bay of Thumper and Bay. 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:24.079 So um she and I did a ski weekend together, and we had an incredible like five-hour sex session in front of the fire. 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:29.519 And you know, there was such a great sexual and heart connection there. 00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:37.920 And so what I realized is I do love these women, but there's a t there's a little part of me that isn't quite ready to say I am in love. 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:38.559 Right. 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:44.480 Because it could make things complicated and I'm scared of being hurt and I don't want to fuck things up. 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.240 So then I experienced the same thing with this woman at the women's retreat. 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:48.640 Right. 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:51.440 So you should talk about that in a little more detail. 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:54.319 Because it didn't happen just at one women's retreat. 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:58.400 It was something that built over that was built over three of them, was it? 00:26:58.720 --> 00:26:59.359 Yeah. 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:00.799 Um yeah. 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:09.440 So she is um someone who's come back for a few different retreats, and each time we have a sexual encounter. 00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:15.920 The first time was very just passing, like it was a sensual eating experience we had, but there was a real connection. 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:18.480 Did you kiss on that first time? 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:19.680 Uh yes. 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:24.240 As part of the sensual eating, we did taste the fruit on each other's lips. 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:25.759 Okay, how convenient. 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:26.400 Yeah. 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.599 Yeah, there's something very intense about her. 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:36.640 Like she has this long, serious eye contact, and I just get pulled into her. 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.720 Anyway, so you know, we kind of missed each other that time. 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:45.359 She connected with someone else, and then the next time we we did get to connect sexually. 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:47.839 And there was a real tension the second time, right? 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:49.759 Like we are going to make time for each other. 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:50.319 Yes. 00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:50.960 Yes. 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:51.680 Yeah. 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:53.920 And um, it was really good. 00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:57.759 And then this pastime was even better. 00:27:58.079 --> 00:27:58.319 Right. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.720 And that was just six weeks ago. 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:01.279 Mm-hmm. 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:01.680 Right. 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:02.240 Yeah. 00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:06.960 So, you know, I I struggle to come with most people. 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:08.640 And I told her that. 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:15.039 And we had a couple nights in a row where she kept encouraging me to just let go, enjoy the pleasure. 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:16.559 Don't focus on coming. 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:17.599 It's not important. 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.200 And so I tried to do that. 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:22.559 It's hard for me, you know. 00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:23.519 I really want to come. 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:24.400 Coming's great. 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:25.119 Right. 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.839 So explain to me what the hard part is. 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:30.480 Not being in that tense, focused. 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:34.240 Like I've got an objective to attain, and that's my job. 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:34.880 Yeah. 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:35.680 Right. 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.160 So on the final night, it was fun. 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:46.079 I took her to one of the rooms where we had a whole bunch of toys laid out, and I said, Pick a couple toys you want to play with tonight. 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.680 And she hesitated and wasn't sure what she wanted. 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:51.519 And I said, Do you want me to pick? 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:52.400 She said, Yes. 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:59.279 So I picked up my collar and leash and I handed it to her and I said, I would like you to collar me. 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.119 And she turned to Catherine and said, What does that mean? 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:08.559 And Catherine's like, She wants you to make her do whatever you want her to do. 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.880 And so there's this moment of hesitation and kind of shyness. 00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:19.119 But then as soon as she put that on me and took the leash, my God, there was this transformation. 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:21.759 Like she just came into her power. 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.000 And yeah, we went back to the room together. 00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:25.759 She led me down the hall on a leash. 00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:36.559 And it's interesting how that little strip of leather and that weak little chain with a handle on the end had such an effect, not just on you. 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.680 So everyone gets how you put a collar on someone and that changes them. 00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:44.000 Some people will hate it, and some people will just love giving up control. 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:45.759 But it also had an effect on her. 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:47.039 I find that interesting. 00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:53.759