WEBVTT 00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:04.320 Welcome to the Monogamous Marriage Podcast. 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:09.359 We're Kate and Liam, married bisexuals a decade into our non-monogamous journey. 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:14.320 We've been having sex with our friends for years, and we're still madly in love with each other. 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:20.559 We're the authors of the Monogamous Marriage Blog, where we've been overthinking sex and love since 2016. 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:25.440 This podcast is the place where we process our sexual adventures in real time. 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:30.480 We are not experts, and nothing we say should be mistaken for professional advice. 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:36.320 The show contains mature language and sexual content, so if you're under 18, it isn't for you. 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:43.039 But if you're a fellow overthinker and you're not freaked out by unfiltered conversation, you're gonna feel right at home. 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:51.759 You may have noticed that Liam often says at the start of so many of our podcasts, this is gonna be a very different episode for us. 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:55.439 I always tease them about that because how different can they actually be? 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:59.119 But this time I'm saying it, and it really is gonna be different. 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:05.280 Right now, I'm in BC, British Columbia, Canada, and Liam is back home in Toronto. 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:13.280 So for the first time, um, because it's not possible for us to do this podcast together, Liam is actually gonna do a solo episode. 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:21.359 So you might be aware that last week we had our fourth Sapio Tours trip of the season, and it was to Whistler, BC. 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:26.959 And the highlight of the week, arguably, was a special group play session on the Thursday evening. 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:33.359 As often happens in these situations, Liam and I split up and each pursued our own thing. 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:44.879 And usually we have a chance to debrief after, but this time I hopped right on a cruise to Alaska with my kids for my birthday, and Liam went home to Toronto. 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:55.040 So this episode's gonna be fun for me because Liam is gonna talk about his adventures, and you will be hearing them at the same time as I will be hearing them. 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:59.439 So settle in and listen with me to what this guy got up to. 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:12.400 Just over a week ago, on August 6th, 2026, I had what I expected to be and what turned out to be my greatest lifestyle experience ever. 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:23.120 So to put that in context, I should say that that happened during a group play event on our Sapio Tours trip to Whistler, BC. 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:36.159 So that was our fourth trip of the season, one women's retreat, then a trip to France, trip to Portugal, and then finally to Whistler, British Columbia, Canada, our first ever event in our home country. 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.360 And the event was going to be different in a few ways. 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:44.960 One, it was just five days, so our typical Sapio Tour's trip to Europe is seven days long. 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:58.719 And it was going to be built around not so much sightseeing and cultural excursions and food experiences, but based around couples therapy. 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:14.000 So we had with us Catherine from Expansive Connection, and her idea was to combine what they do at the women's retreat over three days with what we do in our couples trips and see if there might be some magic. 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:20.960 And as soon as we put the idea out there to our audience, we got an instantaneous yes. 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:22.960 Like people signed up in droves. 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:34.319 In fact, so many people signed up that we sold out the chalet that we had rented in Whistler and had to have an actual separate staff condo. 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:36.159 So that was a good sign. 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:53.199 But I have to say that part of the appeal of that trip, aside from the therapy angle, and therapy meaning not individual one-on-one sessions, but group sessions working through issues relating to our relationships and non-monogamy itself. 00:03:53.520 --> 00:04:00.879 So what we did was we added onto that a guided MDMA experience. 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.879 So that would be the centerpiece. 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:07.520 So as you may know, MDMA is legal in British Columbia. 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:10.319 It's a drug that we've talked about on this podcast. 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:27.120 And it turned out that a lot of people either had experience with it and wanted to join us because of that, or had not had experience with it, and also wanted to join us to maybe have their introduction to MDMA in a very supportive group setting. 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.000 So the trip was very successful. 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:39.199 We only offered it to our existing clients because of the drug angle, and we wanted to make sure that we did things right and safely. 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:59.439 And we were fortunate enough not only to have Catherine, who has been working on MDMA assisted therapy as part of her repertoire of services offered, but also to doctors who have experience with the drug, but also the medical background to understand its effects and potential pitfalls. 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:04.319 So as I said, I expected this to be my greatest lifestyle experience ever. 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:10.399 So why would someone so obviously set themselves up for disappointment by shooting so high? 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:14.319 But there were two reasons really why I thought this might be the case. 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:19.839 One was because we had a hand-selected group of individuals. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:27.759 So there are so many great people on all of our Sapio Tours trips, but this group seemed especially fantastic. 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.639 And that was mainly because I knew everyone. 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.399 So I felt like I would be in really good company. 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:42.959 But also, I have never been in a setting where everyone is on MDMA, everyone is having that shared experience. 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:59.279 Now, most people have this with alcohol, so they can count on everybody having a little something to drink, that social lubricant that will make all the connecting easier, all the jokes funnier, all the dancing better. 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:00.560 But I've never been a part of that. 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:01.759 I'm not a drinker. 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:10.160 So the idea that I might get a boost that is similar to the boost that everyone else is getting was really promising to me. 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:12.480 So we've had that almost at our parties. 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:16.160 So we've had a number of people using MDMA, but not everyone. 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:21.600 And I just felt that the unanimity of the experience would add something great. 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:34.160 Also, I have to say that saying this might be my best experience ever was based on the fact that I have really struggled in lifestyle experiences, and I'm saying especially group sex experiences. 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:51.519 So I was talking to someone on the trip and I said, I think eight out of ten times in group sex experiences, I have just been filled with anxiety and have been looking just to make my way through as unembarrassingly as possible. 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:56.560 I guess I'm saying the bar was low for my greatest experience ever. 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:05.759 I even took it to the extent of making a list of women who I wanted to connect with on the trip. 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:07.680 So I am bisexual. 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:15.759 We say that at the start of every episode, and I am interested in experiences with men, but the cornerstone for me is always experiences with women. 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:17.439 So why did I make a list? 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:29.519 That sounds a little creepy, but I really was afraid that in that situation with so much going on, I might get to the end of the night and say, I can't believe it. 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:35.360 I completely missed out on an experience with this individual who I should have prioritized. 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:37.360 So I made my little list. 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.000 I didn't tell anyone who was on the list. 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:46.959 It was really just for me to make sure that I knew who was a priority for me to connect with. 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.519 That didn't mean I wasn't open to surprises, but these people were a priority. 00:07:51.680 --> 00:08:00.560 And for me, I know I've said this on this podcast before, my definition of a great sexual experience is very expansive. 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:07.839 So it wasn't like I was saying, oh, I've got a list of women who are going to be fucked by me. 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:09.759 That was not my list at all. 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:22.639 I could conceive of having amazing experiences just having a naked conversation with someone, or just cuddling, or maybe discovering something different that we're both interested in. 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:27.360 And then if it came to actual intercourse, well, I'd be down for that. 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:42.159 But it is so far from the top of my priority list that I felt like I could approach each of these women with a clear conscience that I really was interested in something that really worked for them. 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:46.320 But I should also mention what MDMA does for me. 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:53.279 So some of you will have experience with it and your own definition, and those definitions can be so wide apart. 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:56.399 My experience of MDMA is that it's a sex drug. 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:58.799 So for some people, it's a dancing drug. 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.559 For some people, it's a touching and cuddling drug. 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:14.799 And I think all those things sound good, but the thing that makes it a sex drug for me is that it completely relaxes the anxieties I usually feel in a group situation. 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:19.200 So I used to think my anxieties were related to fear of rejection. 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:26.799 So I was afraid that I would be interested in someone who wasn't interested in me and they would tell me and it would be soul destroying. 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:28.480 But I don't think that's the case. 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:30.080 At least not anymore. 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:44.720 I think what I'm afraid of is that I will, in a group sex situation, lose touch with my libido and end up either trying to avoid contact or if I have it, trying to fake my way through it. 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:45.759 So it's interesting. 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:57.840 Our MDMA experience was designed to start off with a meditation from Catherine and just a one-word declaration of our intentions or hopes. 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.600 So all 29 of us shared our words. 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.679 My word was the unexpected. 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:11.919 That really captures who I am as a person, what I'm looking for in sexual situations. 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:21.840 So I ended up having, I would say, eight experiences, all of which were unexpected in some ways. 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:34.639 So I am going to divide up this episode into eight little chapters about the individual interactions I had with eight individual women. 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:37.360 I would say none of them were predictable. 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:41.039 So I am going to dive right in now. 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:43.600 The first was with a woman named Sienna. 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:50.879 She has been, like most people at Whistler with us, on another Sabio Tourist trip, and I really liked her. 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:52.879 I really found her attractive. 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:59.200 But having said that, we were never in a situation where sex seemed like the natural next step. 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:01.360 She was actually on my list. 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:08.399 I'm admitting that now because she's probably going to be listening to this, but not in the sense that I fully expect something to happen. 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:12.799 She was more on the edge of the list that I would like something to happen. 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:17.039 But again, it would have to be something that we both really wanted in the moment. 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:20.960 So we had just taken our first dose of MDMA. 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:28.720 And some of you may know that with MDMA, usually a good approach is to take a low dose first and then to wait an hour and see what that does. 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:35.039 And then you can do something that people refer to as bumping, which is just to take a little bit more if you feel like, okay, I'm safe. 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:35.440 I'm good. 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:38.879 I'm beginning to feel something, but I would like to feel more. 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:43.440 And now I'm in a position to make a judgment about how much more I should take. 00:11:43.679 --> 00:12:00.879 So I walked up to Sienna and Bo, and my intention was just to chat with them, but I complimented Sienna because Sienna is a very slim woman, and she has small breasts that are phenomenal small breasts, and I'm a big fan. 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:04.320 I'm actually a big fan of all the breasts, truth be told. 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:08.399 But she was brawless and just wearing a little crop t-shirt. 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:11.360 And I forget how it came up. 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:20.000 Either I said, You look great in that t-shirt, or I actually complimented her boobs or her bralessness or something. 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:24.799 And her husband said, Would you like to feel them? 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:26.799 And I said, Yes. 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:30.799 And then I looked at her as if to say, Is this okay with you? 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:35.039 And she said, Would you like to touch them on the outside of the shirt or the inside of the shirt? 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:40.000 So that's the greatest form of consent in that particular situation you could ever ask for. 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:44.159 So I reached out and touched her, and I'm doing something right now with my hands. 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:51.679 If you can picture standing up, so your wrists are bent, your fingers are pointed up, your forearms are parallel to the floor. 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:57.919 And so I touched her boobs, and I felt like this is awkward. 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:03.360 This seems like the natural way to reach out, and it feels very unnatural. 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.000 So I said, Do you mind if I just get behind you? 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:07.440 So I did that. 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:09.279 That was a lot easier. 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:20.240 So I reached under her arms and felt her boobs on top of her shirt, under her shirt, and then my inner alarm clock went off and said, Okay, that's enough. 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:22.159 You don't want to drag this out. 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:25.279 And so I said a great big thank you. 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:31.360 I lavished well deserved praise on her because they felt as great as they looked. 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.679 And so that little interaction was maybe two minutes. 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:41.759 It was slightly weird in a way that I like and certainly unexpected. 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:46.720 Even though I had wanted something to happen with Sienna, I did not really expect it. 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:48.480 And that just felt perfect. 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:51.600 It was literally like a middle school fantasy come to life. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.679 So it might be something we build on for the future, or it might not. 00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:03.519 I don't need to see sexual situations as a ladder that you climb up and up and up and up until you get to the top and ring the bell. 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:04.720 So we'll see. 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:07.440 But that's chapter one with Sienna and Bo. 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.840 Chapter two was also with a husband and wife team. 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:21.759 And I was walking around naked at one point, and a guy named Jackson was there with his wife Alana, and I just stopped to talk with them. 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:26.559 And in the middle of our conversation, which was probably something like, Are you having fun? 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:28.240 Is this what you expected? 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:33.120 He said to his wife, I think you should stroke that, pointing at my cock. 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:46.960 And I was really surprised because while I had had little chats every now and then with them in the preceding three days, I really did not think that we were on the fast track to Sextown. 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:48.639 So it surprised me a lot. 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:49.759 But she was very agreeable. 00:14:49.840 --> 00:15:01.759 She said sure, and she stroked me, and I'm sure an inner alarm clock went off in her head at one point, and she felt like it was over, and I was fine with that. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.960 But the interesting thing was not the impromptu cock stroking. 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:08.480 It was later on. 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:17.039 At another point in the evening, I was with Kate, and Jackson and Alana were together, and we were just chatting with them. 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:21.919 And then Jackson said to Kate, you know, Alana stroked Liam's cock. 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:24.159 And Kate did not really hear it. 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.320 There was a lot going on, a lot of noise. 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:30.320 And Jackson could tell that Kate didn't hear it. 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:38.320 So he repeated it again to make sure that she knew that my wife stroked your husband's cock. 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:46.000 I loved that it meant something to him, not so much the experience itself, but that he wanted Kate to know about it. 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:53.039 And I couldn't pretend to guess why that was important to him, but it was really interesting to me that it was. 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.120 So that was my second experience. 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:57.120 That's the second chapter in my story. 00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:59.840 The third chapter involves Shelby. 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:09.200 Now Shelby is a woman I had met before because she had been part of Kate's women's retreats, but I had only talked to her in passing, like just a few sentences here and there. 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:17.919 I thought she was attractive and interesting, so she was on my list of people I wanted to connect with, though with no real expectation that it would happen. 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:23.120 But I have to say I really had no idea how interesting she would turn out to be. 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:29.600 Now to start, I should say that the story of our M night connection had actually begun a few days earlier. 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:36.320 Before we went up to Whistler on the Monday, a lot of people had arrived a few days earlier to spend the weekend in Vancouver. 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.480 One of those people was Shelby. 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:46.000 Through a series of coincidences I won't get into right now, she and I ended up alone in the lobby of our hotel on the Sunday. 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.159 So I asked her if she'd like to have lunch. 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.480 Sitting down together we had a truly fascinating conversation. 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:57.679 She was a deeper human being than I had imagined she would be, and that's not an insult to her. 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:07.519 I think when I meet most people I assume they have an average level of insight or creativity or spirituality until I find out otherwise. 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:15.680 Anyway, I can't replay the whole conversation for you here, but it turned out she had radically unique ideas about sex and human connection. 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:22.799 At one point she told me this story about having an eye gazing session with a man for so long that they almost broke down. 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:35.039 Now I don't consider myself to be a big eye gazer, but that kind of unboundaried view of what sex can be, that it doesn't have to involve physical touch, really, really appealed to me. 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:39.279 I decided right there, whatever Shelby's selling, I'm buying. 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:44.799 So after my experience with Alana and Jackson, I spotted Shelby standing by herself. 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:52.160 We chatted for a bit, and then I said that I wanted to continue the conversation we had started over lunch the other day, but in a different form. 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.759 I suggested we head to the massage table downstairs. 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:04.880 Now, I have to say I was feeling almost guilty because what I was saying really was that I wanted her to focus her powers of observation on me. 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:12.640 She had a kind of wisdom about people that I picked up on at lunch, and I wanted her to turn that power on me. 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:20.880 So I told her that, and that I also felt a little guilty and wanted to make our time together more of a two way street, but she waved that off. 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:24.720 I think giving is a way of receiving for her, if that makes sense. 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.359 But that could just be me rationalizing. 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:32.079 So I had my time on the massage table and I sensed I was being assessed. 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:33.599 And not in a bad way. 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:34.880 I actually loved it. 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.880 It was kind of sexual but also kind of clinical. 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.279 I actually forget if she touched my cock. 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:48.880 I'm sure she'll listen to this, and I'm just as worried that she'll say, Of course I didn't, as I am that she'll say, Of course I did. 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:56.160 One thing I do remember though is she kept saying things like Oh, I'm really feeling a block there, or that was a strange reaction. 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.759 When it was over, she told me that she had learned a lot about me. 00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:06.880 I felt curious, but also still guilty like I had taken something from her I should have, I don't know, paid for. 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:09.119 I didn't feel any resentment from her, though. 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:18.480 She said that she would tell me later what she had discovered about me on the massage table, that there had been a lot, but we never had time to talk on the remaining two days of the trip. 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:25.759 But a few days after we left Whistler, she and I had a bit of an online chat, and she reported some of her findings to me. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:39.680 The first was that on the massage table she sensed a seven to nine year old boy who was inside me literally yelling or screaming to get out, to experience the total freedom I didn't get to in my childhood. 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:46.319 Second, she said I carry all my tightness from pushing all my negative feelings down in my hips. 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:53.519 And that resonates as I have never been able to sit cross-legged on the floor like a normal person, at least since I was a teenager. 00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:00.319 Three, my focus is so much on what other people want me to be that I don't know what I want. 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:05.920 Four, I live entirely in my head and am disconnected from my body. 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:21.359 The fifth one was maybe the most mysterious, and that was that she sensed that there was some trauma on my mother's side, either directly with her or with one of her female ancestors. 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:28.559 And then there were two other points that Shelby expressed, but only to Kate, which Kate then relayed to me later. 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:40.559 The first was that if Kate longs for a partner who will abandon himself to his desire for her, who will get lost in passion with her, Shelby believes she might never get that from me. 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:48.559 And the final observation, apparently shared by at least one other person on the trip, was that I am a high functioning autistic. 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.960 Now, if you only know me from this podcast, you might say, What? 00:20:53.200 --> 00:21:00.319 But those who have talked to me in depth about my life or who have been married to me will know what she's talking about. 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:02.319 I know what she's talking about. 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:08.319 Anyway, each of these points is interesting in different ways, and I've been thinking about them nonstop. 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:14.880 The biggest point though is that this is how I spent part of what you might call an orgy night. 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:23.759 Shelby could be wrong about everything, which I actually don't think she was, and I would still consider my time with her to be a highlight of the event. 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:31.279 And it's a highlight that keeps playing out as I think and rethink through the things that she had to say. 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:37.519 As I said, I love unconventional experiences, generally within the broad framework of sex. 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.519 And this one, I think you'll agree, definitely qualifies. 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:47.279 Okay, we're gonna take a little break and you can actually hear Kate's voice for a minute and a half. 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:49.759 Then we'll be right back with my story. 00:21:51.680 --> 00:22:01.519 If you're interested in lifestyle travel, but wondering if there's an alternative to the pounding bass and non stop drinking of Hito and Desire, we have Have great news for you. 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:11.200 At Sapio Tours, we take small groups of non-monogamous couples to destinations of cultural interest in Europe, like France and Italy, and Greece. 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.039 It's the best of both worlds. 00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:19.519 You get excursions you can actually tell your kids about, and the sexual opportunities that will be your little secret. 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:21.599 That sounds like something you might like. 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:32.079 Go to sapioturs.com, S-A-P-I-O-T-O-U-R-S dot com to find out more and to get on our mailing list. 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.680 And now back to the Monogamous Marriage Podcast. 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:45.119 The fourth chapter in my evening story involved Natalie. 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:54.480 So Natalie is someone I've known for I guess four years, and she's actually been to my home before with her husband. 00:22:54.720 --> 00:23:03.440 And I know that she is a big fan of MDMA, but she's on the party side of the MDMA preferred experience list. 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:05.519 So she loves to dance. 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:10.960 And I didn't know what other forms of interaction might be appealing to her. 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.720 But I saw her and I said, I'd love to spend some time with you. 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:26.319 And we ended up laying down on a large lounging sofa that's has a surface somewhat more like a bed than a sofa. 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:33.440 And I ended up just caressing her for I'm gonna say 10 minutes and kissing her. 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:38.559 And we had a really lovely, though wordless, time. 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:43.440 So I'm a person for whom talking is a big part of sex. 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:48.559 I'm happiest when I can talk about my experiences and ask the person questions. 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:55.839 Even though our bodies might be doing other things, I want that verbal part of my mind also engaged. 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:02.319 So it was an interesting experience to be mainly quiet with her. 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:03.839 And it was wonderful. 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.039 And then at a certain point, she wanted to get back to her husband. 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:12.160 So she spotted him and kind of said a version of, okay, time's up. 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:13.759 Oh, she didn't use those words. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:18.240 But it was just a very soothing, relaxing time. 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.079 And that was chapter four. 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.279 Chapter five involved Madison. 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:36.720 And this was one of the most surprising and most memorable experiences I had that evening because Madison is in a lesbian relationship. 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:47.599 And Madison told me earlier in the week I'm not really interested in men sexually, but we had gotten along so well in just little snippets of conversation here and there. 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:52.400 And though I had never met her before, we really got along very well. 00:24:52.559 --> 00:25:03.119 And I sensed a connection that we looked at, if not sex, then we looked at human relations in a very similar way. 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:18.160 And so I also mentioned to her that I would like to spend some time with her on the massage table, that I would be happy to massage her, or she could massage me, or we could just come up with other things that didn't involve massage. 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.759 And my interest in her had been piqued the night before. 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:29.200 So on the night of the fifth, we had set up the massage table in a room that was the theater room. 00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:34.799 So it had tiers of seating so people could watch something on a big screen together. 00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:38.799 So remember, this chalet was not custom designed for us and our needs. 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:45.200 It's just for people who want to vacation together in big groups, probably often large family groups. 00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:50.559 So they're picturing people watching a movie together in a theater, not what we did in the theater. 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:56.960 So one of the things that we did in the theater was to set up the massage table and have multi-hand massages. 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:00.319 So I think they mainly turned into 10-hand massages. 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:09.920 So there was a revolving cast of five individuals with their two hands each, making 10 hands, providing experiences to people on the table. 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:17.200 So they would go on the table for 10 minutes and just be touched in all kinds of creative ways. 00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:20.400 And there were so many implements right nearby. 00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:22.480 So I don't know if you've seen this before. 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:27.519 There's a glove that has spikes coming out of it, like nail spikes. 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:35.039 Like if you've ever seen the Christian Louboutin shoes, they're sometimes high heels, sometimes running shoes that have spikes coming out of them. 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:36.880 They look very BDSM. 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:50.799 Well, this glove had on the palm and on the fingers nail-like spikes that were really sharp, and what a person could do is just press them at various levels of intensity into the skin of the receiver. 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:57.519 And I'm sure some people who are seasoned masochists would love a lot of pressure. 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:02.799 I was enjoying just a little light pressure, but that was just one of the things going on. 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:15.440 There were people just needing me, like K-N-E-A-D-I-N-G needing me, and there were people um gently caressing me. 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:30.319 And there was another person who spanked my ass a couple times, not hard actually, just playfully lightly, in a way that with everything going on back there that I couldn't see really got my attention. 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:36.400 So the next day, Madison passed me by in the kitchen and said, Oh, I had the chance to spank you last night. 00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:37.359 And I said, What? 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:38.720 You were the person? 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:40.319 Those were your hands? 00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:52.720 So now I was really excited because we had been getting along really well, but now I had a sense that her body had a way of talking to my body that really resonated with me. 00:27:52.960 --> 00:28:02.480 So I thought it would be great if something could happen during our MDMA assisted playtime on the Thursday night. 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:14.480 But the fact that she is in a lesbian relationship and not sexually interested in men, well, that was something we would have to figure out, I guess, either explicitly or implicitly. 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:22.160 So we went to the massage table and we had a transformative time together. 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:26.160 Like it was so fascinating to me. 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.519 It was kind of a massage, but it was kind of like a talking time. 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:32.000 I remember two particular things. 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:36.720 One is we sat facing each other, straddling the massage table. 00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:46.079 So if you could picture our legs dangling over the sides, we're sitting up straight, looking at each other, and she said to me, You have a really great cock. 00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:50.640 And I love that, unsurprisingly. 00:28:50.799 --> 00:29:00.319 Um, pro tip for all women out there, if you compliment a guy on his cock, he will remember you until the day he dies. 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:08.960 I have memories of kind words being said about my endowment 20 years ago that have stayed with me to this day. 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.279 So that's something that Madison did. 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:17.920 It was very sincere, it was considered, it was not an invitation to do more with my cock. 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:25.519 She was not going to touch it, and that was a-oka with me because for me, vision is a form of touch. 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:37.119 So I like to be seen, I think we all like to be seen for who we are, but I also have maybe that exhibitionist thing that I like to be seen naked, frankly. 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:46.000 Not so that I can impress another person or turn them on, maybe, but just for the simple pleasure of being seen by another human being. 00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:49.359 So her compliment said, I see you. 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:54.240 And it didn't say more than that, and I was just fine with that. 00:29:54.400 --> 00:30:06.400 And then I had this desire to put my hand on her stomach, just flat on her stomach, because there was something very beautiful about it and about our connection. 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:09.599 I can't explain why I wanted to lay my hand on her tummy. 00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:13.359 Maybe some psychoanalyst out there could tell me exactly what was going on. 00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:17.759 I just know I was in a space where that felt like the thing I wanted to do the most in the world. 00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:22.240 And I'm practicing not self-censoring all the time and just asking for what I want. 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:34.079 So our connection involved lots of touch that didn't really turn into the sexual, although she did spank my ass a bit on the massage table, a reprise of what she had done the night before when I didn't know it was her. 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:42.799 But other than that, our connection was mainly a spiritual one channeled through two bodies. 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:54.559 So it's very hard for me to put into words everything that transpired between Madison and myself, but it was a very intense experience. 00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:07.279 So I say intense, meaning that it really got through all my defenses and she was able to speak directly to me with touch and with words. 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:17.279 So how interesting it is to think about an experience that was sexually satisfying for me, but not sexual, yet still satisfying for the other person. 00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.920 I'm gonna be thinking about that one for a long time. 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:21.839 So that was chapter five. 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.640 Chapter six involved Marissa and Ben. 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:31.119 I had met the two of them on one of our previous trips, and I had even photographed Marissa nude before. 00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:32.640 So it was a great experience. 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:39.200 She's extremely photogenic, very beautiful, and I was so happy with the way the pictures turned out. 00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:47.039 And for me, taking pictures of a woman nude or in lingerie is a sexual act. 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:53.599 Not in a creepy sense, but just as another plane on which a man and a woman can interact erotically. 00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:10.480 So during the first three days of the trip, she did a wonderful, I would even say masterful job of conveying her sexual interest to me, managing to be both unambiguous and subtle about it at the same time. 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:13.359 That's not an easy combination to strike. 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:19.039 And it confirmed for me that this person that I was interested in was also very interested in me. 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:29.039 So at one point, I am, I think again, in the kitchen, and I see her, and we look at each other and say with our eyes, Are you free? 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:29.920 Because I'm free. 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.000 And now is the time we could do something. 00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:33.440 So we got together. 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:37.680 Her husband Ben was not with her at the time. 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.240 So I think we kissed, and then I said, Would you like to go elsewhere? 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.480 Because I was thinking of that theater space. 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:46.880 And she said, Well, hold on, let me talk to Ben. 00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:52.319 So Ben came over, and Ben is he's just a super impressive guy all around. 00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:05.680 I was a-okay with her talking with Ben because the big thing for me is although I like one-on-one interactions, it's so important to me that whatever we do is enthusiastically supported by our partners. 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:07.759 Because I know I have that support from Kate. 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.319 She wants only good things to happen for me. 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:13.200 And I like to see that in other people. 00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:21.440 In fact, one of the things that turns me on the most is when a woman really praises or speaks well of her husband. 00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:23.920 I find that so attractive. 00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:27.680 And even though I'm a one-on-one person, I want to know that they are solid. 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:32.240 So she and Ben conferred and then said, Would you like to come down to our room? 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:34.880 So I said, that would be great. 00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:45.839 So we went into the room and it became obvious that what they were looking for was a situation where Ben could just sit in a chair and observe us together. 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.240 So I loved that. 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:59.039 And I'll tell you why, because I have been the husband in the chair before, watching a man with Kate and loving it. 00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:07.200 So I was looking at Ben not as, oh, you're the guy taking the back seat while I'm in the front seat with your wife. 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:10.960 It's like, oh no, I know what it's like to be you, and it's fantastic. 00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:18.639 And I'm so happy to be the other guy providing the experience to you that I have enjoyed so often. 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:20.239 Because what's going on there? 00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:25.360 You have a desire to see your wife as a sexual person, but at a remove. 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:31.360 And to do that, to get the most out of the experience, you need a guy to be your stand-in, so to speak. 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:33.440 So you can be a pure observer. 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.719 So how great was it for me to be chosen for that role? 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:45.199 So we just started in and we had such a great physical connection, Marissa and I. 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:52.719 And for the first time the night, I told you I would be open to having intercourse if that's the direction things went. 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:54.960 Well, I got to do that with Marissa. 00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:57.519 And it was fantastic. 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:05.039 And it was only bolstered by the fact that Ben was watching with so much interest and love. 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:07.920 And I remember at one point the room was pretty small. 00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:15.199 So he was sitting in the chair and he put his foot up on the bed, and I said, Do you mind if I grab your foot? 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.559 And so while I was having sex with his wife, I held on to his foot. 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:22.639 And I don't know where the idea came from. 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:32.559 It's not like that's a longstanding fantasy of mine, but it just felt really connecting and good because I liked him so much and liked her so much. 00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:39.920 And so eventually he came over and he then had sex with his wife while I watched them. 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:45.360 And then the time was up, and we left the room and went back upstairs. 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.079 But what an amazing experience that was. 00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:54.159 We had so much energy flowing between the three of us that it put me on a high. 00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:57.039 I think it did for them too, but I don't want to speak for them. 00:35:57.280 --> 00:35:58.639 But it was really great. 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:04.639 And I would say a highlight of the night, but all these things I'm telling you, they were all highlights in their different ways. 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:10.639 You know, I hesitated to even include the foot grabbing thing because some people might think that's highly uncool. 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:17.119 But as I said, I'm in this this lifestyle for the unexpected, for the unconventional. 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:24.480 And if I can't admit to that here, then maybe I haven't really made a change inside at all. 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:30.320 So it was just a great experience that I feel happy that I don't have to rank. 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:32.639 I'm just going through these eight episodes in order. 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:39.679 So I don't know if you've been keeping track at home, if you've been taking notes, but that was chapter six of my evening. 00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:41.280 So I've got two more to go. 00:36:41.519 --> 00:37:00.480 So the seventh one happened in the theater room that I talked about, and I had gone there with someone just to chat, and I was sitting in the top row, but my beautiful wife, Kate, was also in the room, and she was having a threesome with Justin and his wife. 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:06.320 Now Justin is one of my best friends in the world, and his chemistry with Kate is off the charts. 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:09.280 And Kate and Bay are super close friends too. 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.079 So it was great watching the three of them together. 00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:16.239 But after a while, Bay sort of moved on to another adventure. 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:21.519 Then it was just Kate and Justin together, and they are so beautiful to watch. 00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:22.719 It was amazing. 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:29.920 And as it continued, it was obvious that Justin was going to come right inside Kate. 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.400 And so it was great for me to watch. 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:37.199 And when it was over, Kate said to me, You know, I have a pussy full of cum. 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.679 And I said, Yeah, I'm very aware. 00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:45.199 And so I wanted to lick that pussy. 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.920 So I guess that's a Rorschach test for some of you. 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:51.280 Some of you are going, Oh no, that's gross. 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:55.280 And I know some of you are going, Holy fucking God, that's hot. 00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:12.400 So my my situation is I don't think cum tastes great, but I'm here to tell you that there's some magical alchemy that happens when Justin's cum is inside Kate's pussy and the taste is phenomenal. 00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:21.119 Because it's not, of course, just about the taste, it's the psychological dimension of, I don't know, people talk about reclaiming and those kinds of things. 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.599 I actually prefer not to analyze it and just say, I just really loved it. 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:30.320 And I loved doing it in a public space where I could be seen. 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:37.360 So there's that thing about being seen again that really added something because I have done that with them before. 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:42.400 I have never done it in a quasi-public space where lots of people could see me. 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:44.559 So I don't know if anyone was actually paying attention. 00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:52.719 A lot of people were doing their own thing, but just the thought that I could be seen to be having that experience was very powerful for me. 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:54.480 So that was number seven. 00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:57.920 I then switched my attention to Kate. 00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:09.039 So although I had these aspirations for all these other people, my number one favorite person in the world to spend time with when I'm on MDMA is Kate. 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:18.079 I know that sounds like the politically correct thing to say, that oh yes, of course, I'd love to go back to my wife, but she is the person I discovered MDMA with. 00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:26.960 She is the person with whom I first felt that incredible freedom, that incredible connection to my libido. 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.880 And she still knows me better than anyone else. 00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:39.679 So I thought after licking that creamy pussy, that I would also like to put my cock in that creamy pussy. 00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:46.159 And I think either she hadn't had an orgasm with Justin or she had only had one. 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:52.000 I forget, but I felt like I've got a job to do right now, and I'm going to deliver that orgasm for her. 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:57.840 So I really tried, but somehow we weren't able to get there. 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:01.920 So I know for me, um, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same for Kate. 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.679 I should know this by now, but I don't. 00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:09.760 I think it's hard for her to come on MDMA, especially late in the journey. 00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:13.119 So she might be able to come early on, but this was now late. 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:16.800