Can Vertical Gardens Lower Your Cooling Costs?

If it's not data centers raising your energy bills, it's hotter days and months. Enter vertical gardens, also called green walls or living walls. We uncover whether green walls in urban spaces actually cool surface temperatures (you'll be shocked!) and whether adding them to your house could have a serious impact on your monthly bills.

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Sources

• Crunchbase
• Plenty on its chapter 11 bankruptcy
• Nature-Based Solutions journal
• Utrecht University
• Grow a Living Wall: Create Vertical Gardens With Purpose, Shawna Coronado (affiliate link)
• Lowe’s
• EWG
• AGardenPatch.com blog
• The Spruce

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Instagram: @greeningupmyact
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Email us with questions: greeningupmyact@gmail.com
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Transcript

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Tiffany (00:01)
Hi Kat

Kat (00:02)
Hi Tiffany.

Tiffany (00:04)
How's it going?

Kat (00:05)
All right, how are you?

Tiffany (00:07)
I'm fine. I'm just in the middle of pretty crazy thunderstorms.

Kat (00:10)
Yeah. We had flooding here in Texas last week and tomorrow it's gonna be a hundred and six, so

Tiffany (00:19)
Ugh.

on a similar note, did you know that there is a type of planting system that can reduce surface temperatures by up to twenty nine degrees Fahrenheit? According to one study.

Kat (00:31)
Twenty nine degrees Fahrenheit? No. I

Tiffany (00:33)
Mm.

Kat (00:34)
I know the subject matter we're talking about tonight, I wouldn't have assumed it would have had some effect, but almost thirty degrees?

Tiffany (00:41)
Yeah. Surface temperature, but still.

Kat (00:44)
Serve well,

yeah, that's that's huge.

Tiffany (00:47)
Yeah, if my math is correct, and I'm pretty sure it is. Cause it was like sixteen degrees Celsius difference. So

Kat (00:54)
Yeah. That's huge.

Tiffany (00:57)
I know. Yeah. So that's pretty crazy.

Kat (01:03)
Yeah.

Tiffany (01:04)
yeah, if you read the title of this episode, you'll already know what we're talking about. But it is Vertical Gardens. I was originally planning to talk about like bug lights or something, but then I realized

Kat (01:14)
Yeah.

Tiffany (01:15)
that

we already covered a lot of what we

Kat (01:17)
We talked about bugs.

Tiffany (01:17)
talked about. Yeah, and a lot of what I was gonna say w you already covered. So instead I'm taking a request from a listener named Sean.

Kat (01:27)
Who I also happen to live with.

Tiffany (01:28)
Yeah, who happens to be quite close to Kat So he wanted to know about like green walls and vertical gardens and stuff. So here you are. You're welcome.

So today we're talking about what vertical gardens and green walls are, along with the amazing potential that these additions have in urban spaces, and whether or not it may be worth building a vertical garden in your own home or your own community. Welcome to Greening Up My Act.

Did it do to you?

Kat (02:14)
It did it a little bit, it just like slowed down and changed key and I was like It's Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (02:17)
Yep. That's what happened to me last time. Brrrr. Yeah.

Kat (02:24)
Strange.

Tiffany (02:25)
But it sounded normal on the actual recording, so Yeah

Kat (02:27)
Okay, good. So sorry, listeners. well.

You don't get to experience the the behind the scenes fun that we do.

Tiffany (02:34)
Yeah, it was like kind of eerie. A little bit

Kat (02:37)
Yeah.

Tiffany (02:37)
spooky.

Kat (02:38)
It just kind of made me twitch a little. 'Cause it was just a little slight, it just went da dun dun dun It just like changed keys and it was like Huh? Yeah.

Tiffany (02:44)
Yes. Yes. Slowed down a little bit.

That's funny. I don't know why you didn't hear that one time, but Yeah.

Kat (02:52)
Yeah. I wanted to say I was thinking

about earth cooling. So I watched Project Hell Mary last night finally, like late late bloomer here.

Tiffany (03:00)
Yeah.

Kat (03:01)
Love that movie. But they're talking about, you know, the sun could dim and it could lower the temperature on Earth by fifteen degrees and I was like, That sounds great. But a difference of fifteen degrees Celsius would be, like you said, almost almost it would be twenty five or almost thirty degrees Fahrenheit, which would be pretty extreme. So

Tiffany (03:21)
Right.

Kat (03:21)
I'm just like

in Texas I'm like, that sounds great. I think so. I mean,

Tiffany (03:24)
Yeah. They wait they were talking about Celsius, not Fahrenheit. I think so. Yeah, okay.

Kat (03:28)
anytime a science movie talks about

Tiffany (03:30)
Yeah.

Kat (03:31)
unless that's you know, NASA. NASA still uses the Imperial metri not the metric system, but I think for temperatures they they probably use Celsius just 'cause, you know, you don't wanna that's a mistake of quite a magnitude to to make there. Yeah.

Tiffany (03:47)
Yeah, that would be bad. Yeah.

Kat (03:49)
But

Tiffany (03:51)
Yeah, I just watched that again. Not again, sorry. The for the first time, maybe a a week or two ago. I'm also very late to these things. But I liked it. I thought it was good. Yeah.

Kat (04:00)
was great. We

to be fair, we watched the new Supermo Man movie that came out last year before that and it was such a stinker that it was like this movie was a balm. Just

Tiffany (04:11)
Yeah.

Kat (04:11)
a balm of you know, I did it had playful science, which is like, Yay, nerds. But it also I had

Tiffany (04:18)
Mm.

Kat (04:19)
I took great issue with the linguistic the linguistics of it, 'cause that's not usually how these things work. But anyway, it was a fun movie.

Tiffany (04:27)
What do you mean?

You mean you can't just like learn an alien language in like half a day and then write it down and record and then

Kat (04:30)
Well Yeah.

Right? I know that seems weird. Like it should just be normal, you know, it takes

Tiffany (04:35)
It was so funny.

Kat (04:39)
a long time for humans to figure

Tiffany (04:42)
Yeah.

Kat (04:43)
out each other's languages. So but

Tiffany (04:45)
Right.

Kat (04:46)
maybe they had like a really great AI that but I you know luckily Rocky's syntax is the same as English, so it you know, it worked, right?

Tiffany (04:55)
Right.

And then the fact that Rocky could understand him just fine. I was just like It was fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. enjoyed it. I did. Yeah, it

Kat (05:01)
Yeah, there was some you know, willful suspension of disbelief which I I enjoyed it. It was it was good.

Tiffany (05:09)
was it was good. It was it was worth it.

Kat (05:12)
Yeah, sorry, spoilers everyone.

Tiffany (05:15)
Right.

Kat (05:17)
I knew

there was an alien in it before I watched it, but Sean did not, so yeah. Me neither.

Tiffany (05:20)
okay. I didn't know anything about it. I never read the book. Apparently it's kinda slow, but

Kat (05:25)
Well, it's science.

Tiffany (05:26)
But yeah. Is it Andy Weir? Is it the same okay. That's

Kat (05:28)
Yeah, he did the Martian, yeah.

Tiffany (05:30)
what I thought. Yeah, I've never had much interest in actually reading the books, although I'm sh I know people love them, so

Kat (05:38)
Yeah, we're a science fiction family in my house, so I think all my family read them. I'm I'm very loath to read science fiction a lot.

Tiffany (05:45)
really?

I usually like it but depends on it depends.

Kat (05:49)
It depends. And

it the the s quality of I think that's the issue is that I'm a literature snob.

Tiffany (05:54)
Mm.

Kat (05:55)
So but the quality of writing in fantasy and science fiction in a lot of ways has gotten a lot better.

Tiffany (06:02)
Yeah,

definitely. Are you saying like Asimov? Well, Asimov was okay, but like a lot of Yes.

Kat (06:08)
He was fine. A lot of pulp like I couldn't read a lot of fantasy

books when I was growing up 'cause I was just like, This is so bad.

Tiffany (06:16)
huh.

Kat (06:17)
Like the world is cool, but the writing is so bad.

Tiffany (06:19)
yeah. Even

nobody kill me f for saying this. But like Lord of the Rings. I'm not saying it's

Kat (06:24)
It's hard.

Tiffany (06:25)
bad. I'm just saying it is a slog to get through.

Kat (06:29)
It is and

it's you know, I d like no. It is a slog. And it's either like too flowery or too dry, you know. Like

Tiffany (06:32)
That doesn't mean it's bad. Don't kill me. I loved it. I was obsessed. Yes. Mm hmm.

Kat (06:40)
I that's my problem with Azimov is a lot of time I'm like, come on you know, this is dry and

Tiffany (06:45)
Yeah.

Kat (06:48)
But, you know, the ideas are good and that it's

Tiffany (06:51)
Yeah.

Kat (06:52)
it's one of those things. It's like in my

Tiffany (06:55)
It's also opinion. I mean other people completely disagree with us, so it's fine.

Kat (06:57)
it is, and it's a preference. Yes.

And that you know so anyway, so

Tiffany (07:02)
Yeah.

Anyway, welcome to the show. We're not talking about science fiction.

Kat (07:05)
But that is a good yes. Well,

except like I think it that's a big thing that happens in science fiction a lot. You notice they have green walls or plants, you know,

Tiffany (07:14)
Yeah.

Kat (07:15)
'cause they create oxygen and all these things and

Tiffany (07:17)
Mm-hmm. It

does get a little bit science fiction-y, but I

Kat (07:21)
Yes.

Tiffany (07:21)
only briefly touch on the that today, but it's pretty

Kat (07:26)
Okay.

Tiffany (07:26)
crazy. Like you're gonna if you haven't heard of what I'm gonna talk about, basically vertical agriculture, you're gonna wanna look up some pictures because it is weird.

Kat (07:37)
Yeah, a lot of it yes. And some of it's like there's Whole Foods here in Austin has a huge huge green wall. And every

Tiffany (07:48)
really?

Kat (07:48)
time we walk in we're like

Tiffany (07:50)
Do they grow food or it's just plants? Okay. That'd be funny. That'd be pretty cool if they grew food.

Kat (07:53)
No. It's just plants. It's pretty plants. I

yeah, you wish. They'd have to sell it at an extra premium.

Tiffany (08:00)
Yes. Lo ver s hyper local grown.

Kat (08:03)
Hyperlocal is it's certified organic. Yeah, right. Under fluorescent lighting.

Tiffany (08:08)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (08:09)
Sure.

Tiffany (08:11)
Yeah. So for anybody who hasn't I keep looking out the window because there's crazy lightning going on. but for anybody who hasn't listened to us before, welcome. And who are we? Maybe we could start summing it up in like a sentence. I feel like we go on a sh feel normal.

Kat (08:26)
Yeah. Yeah, we are two n normal normal girls who

were tire with marketing backgrounds who were tired of getting sold a bill of goods about saving the world and wondering if there was any truth to those claims from the product manufacturers. And

Tiffany (08:51)
Mm.

Kat (08:52)
n we're I think we've developed over time. We

We used to just be like, let's examine a product and now we're kinda like let's examine whole systems of the world and what is actually worth doing as an individual to make a difference. Right,

Tiffany (09:07)
What is the concept of sustainability? Yeah.

Kat (09:09)
yes. We're gonna we've gotten a lot more existential and broad reaching than

Tiffany (09:12)
Yeah.

Kat (09:15)
simple simple brands, but we still do talk about brands. But yeah.

Tiffany (09:18)
Yeah.

Kat (09:19)
But it you know, this season we're talking about gardening, basically.

Tiffany (09:24)
Yeah, or

yeah, being outside and getting your hands dirty outside is the theme

Kat (09:27)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (09:29)
of the season, so season ten, which is crazy.

Kat (09:33)
I know it's wild.

Tiffany (09:36)
Okay, cool. Thank you for that. Every week and it's always a little different.

Kat (09:38)
Sure. It's off the cuff every week. Then one

of these weeks we're gonna be like we're huge science fiction enthusiasts who read literature and critique writing.

Tiffany (09:49)
Our science fiction podcast. Yeah, all about Andy Weir. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our favorite.

Kat (09:51)
Yes. About movies. About A all about Andy Weir, basically. Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (09:58)
Yeah. shoot, I was gonna say something, then you made me chuckle. I'll think of it.

Kat (10:03)
Sorry.

Tiffany (10:04)
It's okay. all right, I'll just go through my sources. So

Really briefly these first couple, but I use this article by Medium. These are all linked, so I'm not gonna go too far into them, but about like vertical farming, vertical agriculture, Reddit post on that same topic, crunchbase.com on vertical farming, and then I use this blog post from this company called Plenty on their chapter eleven bankruptcy. We'll get there.

Kat (10:38)
Mm.

Tiffany (10:42)
then

The meat of this really is Nature Based Solutions, that's a journal. Pretty cool title. They had this overview, what do they call it? Umbrella review or something. Basically a peer not peer review, what's it called? Why can't I think of it?

Kat (11:01)
you know, I am having the same

Tiffany (11:02)
It don't matter.

Kat (11:03)
brain fart, yeah.

Tiffany (11:04)
It's like the thing where you review Leer, thank you. That's what I maybe that's like

Kat (11:07)
You re a re a literature review. Yeah. There we go.

Tiffany (11:11)
the science version of it. Anyway. and then a blog post from a blog post about a study from U Utrecht University. Is that Nether?

Kat (11:22)
It's near

yeah, Utrecht is sorry. Like I know any Dutch. It's in the Netherlands, near near Amsterdam. Hopskip and a jam from Amsterdam, but yeah.

Tiffany (11:25)
Is that Netherlands? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay,

okay. and then this book, which is really interesting, Grow I'm excited to talk about this book 'cause it's I didn't even read it. I just got a sample of it and I'm like, wow, this this she has some opinions. But it's a cool topic and it's called Grow a Living Wall, Create Vertical Gardens with Purpose.

Kat (11:51)
Nice.

Tiffany (11:53)
and then I just looked at Lowe's for one product. The environment I had a lot. The environmental

Kat (11:57)
Yeah.

Tiffany (11:58)
working group. I very quickly looked at one thing from them, what they thought about it. A gardenpatch dot com about how deep tomato roots grow. And then the spruce. So

Kat (12:10)
Wow, okay. I think my next week has three sources, so

Tiffany (12:14)
Well, I tried,

but here we are.

Kat (12:17)
This is good. We have deep weeks and we have less deep weeks, so

Tiffany (12:19)
Yeah,

exactly. okay, so what are we talking about today? We are talking about vertical gardening. I'm gonna start off by explaining what we're not talking about because it's to me really interesting and it I took it a little bit of a deep dive because I was like, What is this world? We're not talking about vertical agriculture or vertical farming. So if you look up vertical gardening on

Anywhere on Reddit, on anywhere, whatever. Everybody is gonna bitch about venture capital. And they're gonna be like, the venture capitalists ruined this fantastic idea. Which yeah.

Kat (13:01)
Fair happens.

Tiffany (13:03)
What what what hasn't that habit due? No,

Kat (13:05)
Not the first time, won't be the last. Yep.

Tiffany (13:07)
exactly. But it is really interesting because it's this like

Huge startup companies with large robot warehouses. I swear that's the only way I can think to describe them. With super bright, probably LED lights and strawberries, the one I saw was strawberries, hanging from these very tall vertical racks.

Kat (13:34)
Okay. Yes. I can picture I that it's like something out of a zombie apocalypse movie where or Silo,

Tiffany (13:39)
Yeah.

Kat (13:40)
have it sorry, back to science fiction. Have you seen Silo?

Tiffany (13:43)
I don't know if I have actually. Well, I was

Kat (13:45)
It's

Tiffany (13:45)
kind of thinking like Andy, we're like it's very similar. You should

Kat (13:47)
Yes, it is. It is it's sci fi. Yeah. It it's

Tiffany (13:51)
look up plenty, like just Google it. Plenty vertical agro or vertical farming. And just look at the images. Yeah, it's so weird.

Kat (14:06)
I had to I had to mute so you wouldn't hear me tap tap tat tap.

Tiffany (14:12)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kat (14:13)
wow, okay.

Yeah.

Tiffany (14:18)
Isn't it so strange?

Kat (14:19)
The it's a video

when you go to the website. I'm just if you're not watching us on YouTube, you're not

Tiffany (14:23)
Mm.

Kat (14:23)
seeing my face like Huh? Yeah, okay.

Tiffany (14:29)
It's worth a gander, so I recommend everybody goes and looks at it. So this is not what we're talking about today, but it

Kat (14:37)
Okay.

Tiffany (14:38)
is worth mentioning 'cause it's so wild. and the fact that it is generally as an industry not going well. So

Kat (14:49)
Again, sci-fi, like it sounds good in the books, and then we do it in real life, and it's like nope divorcing humanity from farming does not

Tiffany (14:54)
Yeah. So far.

Kat (14:56)
work.

Tiffany (14:57)
Yeah. Like this Plenty company, they received one point eight billion dollars in venture capital funding so far. Investors have included Jeff Bezos.

Kat (15:08)
Surprise.

Tiffany (15:09)
Yeah. Andreessen Horowitz, which is a firm that's funding SpaceX and Facebook and basically every other software company that exists. Plenty just in twenty twenty five got out of chapter eleven bankruptcy.

Kat (15:23)
Jesus.

Tiffany (15:25)
It ain't going well. And of course on their

Kat (15:26)
No, not a weird.

Tiffany (15:28)
website or on their blog post I read about the bankruptcy, they're like, We are dedicated to a new future. We have made changes to blah blah and it's like, okay, or your business model is just dumb.

Kat (15:38)
Your tech CEO is still

just making a billion dollars and nobody's getting anything out of this. Yeah.

Tiffany (15:43)
Yeah, I

don't know. I don't know. But th their business model is flawed, clearly. As happens with venture capital.

Kat (15:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiffany (15:52)
We are not talking about that, but we

Kat (15:54)
Okay.

Tiffany (15:54)
are talking about smaller scale. So less agriculture, more home design, or urban planning. Urban planning doesn't have to necessarily be smaller scale, but it's more like community rather than a weird ass warehouse farm.

Kat (16:10)
Okay.

Tiffany (16:13)
So does it make sense for you in your apartment or your home to build a garden up rather than out if you're limited on space?

Or in your community via Greenwalls. We're gonna talk about both of those. So I I'm gonna take a break after this section.

Kat (16:29)
Yeah, I was just like, We just talked about Andy Weir for twenty minutes, so it's not quite bright time yet.

Tiffany (16:32)
Yeah, that's why I'm gonna

wait 'cause it's gonna be maybe a little bit longer one, but Okay, so what vertical gardens are they're and these are the ones that you grow at like your house. They're usually plants on structures that are grown on fences, on gates, on walls, on balconies, on doors.

If they're grown on walls, you can also call them green walls or living walls.

Kat (17:00)
Okay. Yeah.

Tiffany (17:01)
All these terms are kind of interchangeable. At least

Maybe not according to that lady who wrote the book, but we'll get there. there's usually some kind of structural support attached to said wall or fence, but it can also be a standalone structure that doesn't need like a wall to survive to s to stand up. These plants can be planted in soil or in water. Sean. And you can incorporate a built-in watering system. A lot of the ones that you bought.

Actually I will say a lot. Some of the ones you buy already have it. Like they already have a built-in watering system. So according to this Grow Living Wall book, this is the funny part. A wall with greenery growing up it, like ivy or honeysuckle that's planted into the dirt and growing up the wall is not a living wall.

Kat (17:59)
Okay,

I was gonna say. Correct.

Tiffany (18:02)
Do you agree with that?

Kat (18:04)
I would say like in a technical definition, it's not. Like it like for me a green wall, it has to be growing out of the wall or like using the wall as part of its growing structure. Because with a vine, it's just growing from the pot or the ground and then going up. Also, a green wall to me would probably have some form of

life throughout the year whereas like in the winter like if if the vine dies, the wall goes away, right? If when my passion

Tiffany (18:36)
Mm, mm.

Kat (18:37)
flower vine dies in the winter, the green wall up the back of my patio there is no longer a green wall, right?

Tiffany (18:46)
I just feel like it's semantics because if you have a wall covered in ivy, God forbid, say you

Kat (18:52)
Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (18:53)
live in England and English ivy is fine to have there, it's gonna do the same damn thing.

Kat (19:02)
Yeah, I guess yeah, especially yeah. But there's something about the intention behind it too, right? Like, I know I mean, like, I did plant my passion flower to try and create a green barrier between us and the neighbor's kitchen window that we can see in, you

Tiffany (19:23)
Mm.

Kat (19:24)
know.

Yeah, maybe

Tiffany (19:32)
I just felt like it was like mostly because that study that I looked at well the overview of the studies that I looked at, the review. I think they use like ivy covered walls as an example. So I don't know. It was interesting.

Kat (19:49)
I'm just also th

thinking that like an ivy covered wall one of the problems with an ivy covered wall is the ivy will destroy the brick underneath it. So that was what I was saying about the intention. Like

Tiffany (19:55)
Well yeah, it's not ideal in any sense. Yeah.

Some people don't care. They're like, I need

Kat (20:02)
I feel like

Tiffany (20:03)
I need this wall to be covered in ivy.

Kat (20:06)
Right.

Tiffany (20:07)
I wonder if there's any kind of like creeping vine like that that doesn't destroy

Kat (20:10)
Doesn't.

Tiffany (20:10)
your wall. I don't know. Well add a little trellis and then it will be a living wall.

Kat (20:15)
There you go. A green wall. Yeah. I I could see

I think for our purposes that we could call it like a type of living wall, but it maybe it's like living wall light, if that

Tiffany (20:27)
Yeah.

Kat (20:28)
makes sense.

Tiffany (20:28)
But even like a lot of the stuff that this lady recommends in her book, like a lot of the plants, they're not gonna live all year.

I don't know. I just feel like why are we gatekeeping? It I don't know. It just feels like kinda crazy. But

Kat (20:41)
Right. Because yeah,

maybe you have to define well, except you said they already use it. I was like, if you're defining terms for a scientific paper, okay. I could

Tiffany (20:50)
Right.

Kat (20:51)
see them saying like we excluded it but you said w in the studies they're including these walls. So it does seem kinda gay keepy.

Tiffany (20:56)
Yeah.

It just seems weird. But whatever. That's just my opinion. so that aside, this book does have outlines of how to create all kinds of garden like all kinds of vertical gardens, which is it's pretty cool. So she has probably twenty different options, maybe more. Vegetable balc Vegetable Balcony Garden is one of them.

Culinary kitchen garden, hydroponic pollinator garden. She has one on like Aphrodisiac garden, I think was one of Like they yeah, all whatever you would ever imagine. A fern wall, anything you can imagine. She says that you can plant thirty plus plants in one square foot. If you really try. Depends how tall it is, I guess, but

Kat (21:47)
You've really crammed them in there. But you gotta hope they all like each other. That too. Yeah.

Tiffany (21:55)
She says there's no weeding involved. I highly doubt this because I weed even my containers sometimes, but

Kat (22:01)
Well

yeah, but I'm th I'm wondering if because like weeds

Tiffany (22:04)
Probably less.

Kat (22:05)
weeds spread horizontally more than vertically, that yeah.

Tiffany (22:09)
Yeah. I'm sure it's less. But

I just feel like potting soil has weeds in it sometimes but

Kat (22:14)
I

doubt, yeah. I'm sure the little the little yellow mushrooms that we see in ours would probably grow.

Tiffany (22:18)
Yes.

Yeah. and she says that there are fewer issues with bunnies or ground dwelling pests, which is totally

Kat (22:24)
Well yeah. I could see that they can't climb walls.

Tiffany (22:26)
true. And one cool thing is that you can tap into your the warmth of your wall and extend your growing season potentially. That's cool.

Kat (22:34)
I am

thinking about the site of a museum that we walk by on the dog walk.

Tiffany (22:38)
Is it hot?

Kat (22:40)
It is very hot. In the in the winter it's kinda nice 'cause it stays warm, but it's a south facing wall

Tiffany (22:43)
Mm.

Kat (22:44)
and it's concrete, you know or excuse me, cement yeah, concrete and it like soaks up heat. And then it's warm, you know. Hmm,

Tiffany (22:50)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (22:53)
yeah.

Tiffany (22:54)
Yeah, exactly. it's kinda cool. Like we have walls on our deck that get hot as shit. And I've been intent intending to put some sort of green wall up, but I never have. So maybe I will one day. But it's a cool idea. and yeah, you can do that to reduce the heating cost of your home. and we'll expand on that a little bit later. We kinda touched on it in the intro.

So now it's time to take a break.

Kat (23:23)
Okay.

Tiffany (23:23)
And then after we are gonna talk about what eco-friendly claims surround vertical gardens.

Kat (23:28)
Sounds good.

Tiffany (23:48)
Alright, now we are talking about what eco-friendly claims people make around vertical gardens. And this is kind of lumping green walls and vertical gardens into one, but I feel like they kind of both have the same potential. So I don't know. There aren't really that many studies on green walls, so I don't know how many studies there would be on vertical gardens in people's homes. So this is yeah.

Kat (24:14)
Yeah, that's kind of a hard thing to study too.

Tiffany (24:18)
but they claim that green walls can reduce two things and improve one thing. So they can reduce air pollution and surface temperature, which we already touched on, and they can improve biodiversity. So we are gonna get into each of those. The first one, reduce air pollution.

So living plants and trees clean the air by filtering it through their leaves and their soil. That is just a fact. and it's actually shown that in narrow streets in urban areas, green walls may be more effective than trees because of the improved air exchange in terms of like improving air pollution.

Kat (25:05)
I could see that. And also you you don't have as much room for a tree to get really deep roots in those situations.

Tiffany (25:12)
Mm.

Kat (25:13)
And that's what makes trees so good at it. Like we talked about that in the perennial vegetables episode, is that

Tiffany (25:18)
Yes.

Kat (25:18)
deeper roots do more filtration, but any roots at all is probably better than none.

Tiffany (25:24)
Mm. Yeah. Which roots are are a whole thing with vertical gardens that I will get into in a little bit, but

Kat (25:30)
Yeah. Okay. I was gonna say, like, there goes my wall.

Tiffany (25:34)
right, right, right. But more research is needed on this idea of them reducing helping reduce air pollution. But I would think the greener the better in term in urban areas especially, probably really in any area, but urban areas are the ones that really need it in terms of like air pollution. So

And the second one is that they reduce surface temperature. So buildings get hot in the sun and they absorb that heat from the sun. Putting plantings over that wall can reduce the temperature. so like I said one study found and there were like a couple different studies that had a couple different results, but they were all really impressive.

Kat (26:22)
Compelling.

Yeah.

Tiffany (26:23)
Yeah. So that one study that I talked about had a wall surface temperature reduction and I think this was an average, a mean wall surface temperature reduction of up to no wait, was it up to anyway, around twenty nine degrees, which is crazy. That's like that's like a difference of if you walk by something that's ninety degrees versus yeah, wow.

Kat (26:48)
To sixty. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (26:51)
That's huge.

So this study or this review says to cool urban space, a larger scale impl implementation of green walls over several facades constituting a public space could potentially lead to significant effects. I totally buy it.

Kat (27:11)
I do too. I well and you just think about just okay, even just walking the dogs here in Texas at night, the streets are still hot at ten PM, but it's

Tiffany (27:19)
Yeah. Yeah, you can like feel it radiating.

Kat (27:22)
a twenty degree difference when you get into the grass at the park, you know?

Tiffany (27:26)
Yeah.

Kat (27:27)
and that makes perfect sense. That concrete

Tiffany (27:29)
Mm.

Kat (27:30)
and asphalt just absorb heat and you know, if you have plants, that's it's gonna cool it. Yeah.

Tiffany (27:38)
Yeah,

exactly. green walls are significantly less helpful at reducing stormwater runoff because go figure, right?

Kat (27:45)
Well yes. They're not they're not actually stopping any stormwater on the yeah.

'Cause runoff is actually on the ground. It ends up. I

Tiffany (27:52)
Right.

Kat (27:53)
mean I could see it yeah.

Tiffany (27:55)
Yeah, the study said like it was a difference of four percent versus like fifty percent or something like that. So

Kat (28:00)
Right. Yeah.

Tiffany (28:02)
it's that's not what they're for. Yeah. Right. yeah.

Kat (28:03)
It's not gonna it's not gonna reduce soil runoff. Yeah. Or soil erosion. Yeah. They're for urban centers. Yeah, you w you're not gonna

have a green wall on a barn in the middle of nowhere. Or just a green wall in

Tiffany (28:13)
Yes, exactly.

Kat (28:14)
the middle of nowhere. Like

Tiffany (28:15)
Right. Yeah. In a forest. Like yeah, that's

Kat (28:18)
Yeah. Let

the prairie in Iowa do its job, right?

Tiffany (28:22)
Yep. Yeah. So the third claim is that it a green wall helped or can help to improve biodiversity. So the Utrecht University study found that the green wall the green wall that they were looking at, and I think it was tropical, I think it was in the Philippines or Indonesia, I can't remember. But they studied this one green wall and it hosted over one hundred animal species.

Like insects, spiders, birds, which was way more than the non vegetated wall.

Kat (28:58)
Okay, yeah, I can also see that. It's like duh, but yeah.

Tiffany (29:01)
Right? I mean all this is kind of obvious. Yeah.

But was not quite as good as a normal cliffside. Yeah.

Kat (29:09)
Which also makes sense. Yeah.

Tiffany (29:11)
And they were saying like, well we could use cliffs as inspiration, kind of, and like take take ideas from cliffs and implement them into

Kat (29:17)
Fair. Yeah.

Tiffany (29:20)
design. but the helpful effects of this also depend on what kind of plants you use. Because

Planting nothing that local species rely on is way less helpful. Yes. Go back to our previous episodes this season about native

Kat (29:34)
Which we've talked about also, yes. That you're yeah. If you're not gonna help the pollinators,

it's just a pretty piece of green, which Yeah. Right. And why not kill

Tiffany (29:42)
Yep. Yeah, you'll do the temperature work, but you're not gonna do anything for biodiversity.

Kat (29:49)
two birds with one stone? Or save two birds with one stone? Save two birds with one wall. There you go.

Tiffany (29:51)
There you go.

There you go. and they found that it also works best when it's planted near other trees and vegetation because the bugs and the bees can hop from one to the next.

Kat (30:03)
This is all very common sense to me. It

Tiffany (30:06)
I know.

Kat (30:06)
it tickles a dopamine center in my brain where it's like, Yes, this makes sense. Yes.

Tiffany (30:08)
I know. Yeah, it's like this feels right. Yeah.

So now I wanted to get into this is where it kinda got fun for me. So like, is this something a normal person could do or afford? A vertical gardening green wall situation. There are so many kits out there.

Kat (30:31)
Okay. I wanna say that when I was looking into it 'cause I like, maybe I'll buy Sean a green wall for it was like ten thousand dollars for like

Tiffany (30:37)
huh

Wowza.

Kat (30:42)
Yeah, maybe or

Tiffany (30:44)
Where were you looking?

Kat (30:45)
I don't know. And I it this was a w while ago and

Tiffany (30:48)
Hopefully it was a good one.

Kat (30:49)
yeah, it was it would have been a big one. And it probably had its own self watering and I don't think

Tiffany (30:53)
Mm.

Kat (30:53)
there were many options available when I was looking.

Tiffany (30:56)
okay. Could have been. Yeah, it I think it's probably gotten more popular 'cause now there are options. The one that I found is like a hundred bucks. It doesn't self water. But the ones that are self watering are like three or four hundred.

Kat (31:10)
Jeez. Where was I looking? I don't know, maybe I just like Okay. Well then maybe that was it. It like professional installation and

Tiffany (31:14)
These aren't good ones, I'm not saying I would recommend them. Yeah, I'm sure.

Kat (31:20)
and it was probably I just did a preliminary research and it was probably for commercial buildings or something. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that would include maintenance probably.

Tiffany (31:25)
maybe actually. That would be more expensive.

Yeah, that would be funny. If you had a commercial green wall. That'd be sweet. Right. On his balcony.

Kat (31:34)
Commercial in installed in Sean's apartment, yeah. Manic, yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (31:40)
So I found one from this random ass brand called Garvey with two E's. it's a vertical garden kit. There are no reviews. I have no idea how good it is. Do not

run out and buy this. I'm not saying you should do that, but I just needed an example. It has a planter bed, like an actual planter bed on the bottom, and then trellises up that

Kat (32:01)
Okay.

Tiffany (32:02)
run up. So that's one way to do it. Most of them that you see are these little tiny pots in a stack, basically. Like stacks

Kat (32:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (32:11)
of little tiny pots.

Kat (32:13)
Well yeah. We're supposed to talk about this next week. About my attempt at making a succulent wall in a pallet.

I found a DIY thing about it. Okay.

Tiffany (32:23)
You could try you could talk about it now, unless you don't have enough next week.

Kat (32:28)
I no, I think we have plenty for next week, but it I d I got a pallet, I stapled like weed barrier around it to keep the soil in, right?

Tiffany (32:38)
Yeah.

Kat (32:40)
And then I went to fill it with soil. And I don't know if I did something wrong, but like it didn't occur to me that when I stood it up, it was gonna be super heavy, first of all, because when it's full of soil

And also when I sit it up, obviously the soil's gonna come out the front. And I thought, you know, when I put the plants in there, but it was just too heavy. I couldn't get enough soil in it. And probably the best thing to do is, you know, just kind of yeah, have each of the plants in their own pots and just kind of stick it

Tiffany (33:09)
Mm.

Kat (33:10)
in the sorry, as I hit my stick it in the pallet in their pots rather than trying

Tiffany (33:15)
Mm.

Kat (33:15)
to take them out and plant them, you know.

Tiffany (33:18)
Succulents are tricky,

Kat (33:20)
Yeah, I just thought it would be easy every time I I'm like I can't keep a succulent alive s for my life. I cannot. Yes. Spider plants and pothos Yeah. Yeah,

Tiffany (33:26)
No, me neither. We've said this before. No, I have one Yeah. I have a single one in my bathroom and it's dying, so

Kat (33:33)
yeah. I don't know what I do.

Tiffany (33:36)
I don't either. Definit black thumb with those.

Kat (33:39)
Yeah. Also orchids. No, can't do an orchid.

Tiffany (33:41)
yeah, mine died very quickly. that's funny. Yeah, well, I actually did one DIY out of a palette also years ago. And mine went surprisingly well, but I did burlap, so I think same idea. Like inside the little in between the palette rails, I I don't know what call

Kat (34:05)
Yeah.

Tiffany (34:06)
I d made a little pocket out of burlap and then

Kat (34:11)
See, that's where I I went wrong. I should have made pockets rather than just one big Yeah. That's

Tiffany (34:16)
I see. Yeah, I did

little pockets inside each of them. It took forever.

Kat (34:21)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (34:22)
And then planted some basil and I think I even had a tomato growing. But I I was surprised that it most of it survived, some of it died. I think the basil died because it wasn't getting enough sun, but I think it would have been fine otherwise. Anyway, that yeah, that's an option. It's funny we both done palette tried palette.

Kat (34:42)
Yeah,

to var variety of success stories, but yeah.

Tiffany (34:46)
Yeah,

it w mine was pretty ugly, but that's okay. so this one is made of polypropylene, which is plastic, but that's considered generally non-toxic, even by the environmental working group, which was the EWG article I looked at, which I was surprised. I was like, interesting. Still plastic. and like, would you want to grow your food in plastic containers? It's up to you. You know? it's up to you.

Not a bad price though, because it's $106 before the sale and was on sale for like $90. but then you have to add in like soil cost, plant and seed cost, that kind of thing. So out of all of these, all the ones I could find, all of these vertical garden kits, two things I don't love. The plastics of it all,

Kat (35:36)
Mm.

Tiffany (35:37)
because most of them that are homeowner friendly and aren't like DIY, like out of a palette.

are made of plastic, like almost every single one. And you have to think about micro plastic shedding because they're outside. They're over out outside over winter probably.

Kat (35:56)
Well yeah,

and like how long is it gonna last too, right?

Tiffany (35:59)
Mm-hmm.

I mean, this stuff is probably pretty sturdy, but yeah, I don't know. I mean, pl yeah, plastic ice yeah.

Kat (36:04)
'Cause it's gonna get sun beaten and weather beaten, it's gonna freeze. Yeah.

Tiffany (36:08)
Yeah. I don't know. And my biggest gripe is that the growing area is so flippin' small. So, like I said, on most of them you have these tiny little pockets that you can barely squeeze a basil plant into, which requires so much watering because they'll instantly dry out. It's like

Kat (36:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (36:27)
when you first buy a

little plant in one of those little plastics.

Kat (36:29)
Yeah,

well and it also it it gravity forces the water down, so it's

Tiffany (36:33)
Mhm. Yes.

Kat (36:34)
gonna drain out. Yeah.

Tiffany (36:36)
Right. There's nowhere for it to go except for to the ground. Or I guess to what's below it, which is fine. But yeah, they're they're gonna dry out very quickly. There and there's no room for roots to grow for the most part. This one that I found, yes, but so like if you're gonna grow food, for example, to some types of tomato roots can grow three feet down.

That's not gonna work here. Like you cannot do that in this type of vertical garden. But I found that there are determinant, they're called determinate tomato varieties, and they have shallower root systems.

Kat (37:18)
Okay.

Tiffany (37:19)
I have, I think I linked the article. I'm not sure. I think I did. But Roma tomatoes are one of them. There's one called patio plum. So there's all sorts of different

varieties, but you have to be careful which variety you pick because if you get the wrong one, it's gonna be very unhappy. I mean, I say careful in a sense you're not gonna die, but your tomato will Yeah.

Kat (37:38)
Well yes. Right. Well, you might kill the plant. Well and and

also I'm thinking about like if these are for presentation and beauty, like the roots are g also gonna go down and it's probably gonna deform your wall, you know,

Tiffany (37:53)
Right.

Kat (37:53)
in s it just in terms of what the green wall looks like. Like the plants are gonna move if they're all you know,

Tiffany (37:58)
Mm.

Kat (37:59)
like you have to be pretty diligent about that. You know, tomatoes last the summer, but

Tiffany (38:03)
Right.

Kat (38:04)
if you're doing like a decorative green wall

Tiffany (38:06)
Mm.

Kat (38:07)
You're gonna have

to take that into consideration too, which is why I thought I I would do air plants or succulents, because they don't really have

Tiffany (38:12)
Mm.

Kat (38:13)
deep root systems and they can, you know, stay put. And gross no.

Tiffany (38:17)
Yeah. Airplanes are another one that I can't grow, which is amazing.

Kat (38:20)
I know, right? What is our brown thumb with pl plants that like neglect? We're overbearing, yeah.

Tiffany (38:25)
I don't know. It's so weird. 'Cause

I plant sat for a former coworker who used to travel a lot with her air

Kat (38:32)
Yeah.

Tiffany (38:33)
plants and I killed every single one. And I'm like, dude, I literally don't know how.

Kat (38:35)
How? Yeah.

Tiffany (38:38)
These are supposed to require air and that's it. So and a little bit of water. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (38:40)
Yeah. A misting from time to time, yeah.

Tiffany (38:45)
Don't know. I don't know. It's so funny. But then like this woman is saying, you know, you can grow like a pollinator garden in a vertical

kit, vertical garden, whatever. Most

Kat (38:58)
Well and okay.

Sorry. I'm thinking when I was trying to do it, I was trying to have the plants face like if the pallet's against the wall, the plants are f

Tiffany (39:06)
Mm.

Kat (39:06)
outward. So like the top of the plant is actually sideways. But you could probably do it in kind of cups, you know, so that they're actually growing up instead of out, right? So

Tiffany (39:17)
Yeah. I think that's what most of look like.

Kat (39:19)
yeah, probably. I was just thinking that, that like the plant wall I'm thinking of at Whole Foods has all the plants growing so they're

Tiffany (39:27)
yeah. Right. I have seen those. Yeah. Yeah, that's kinda like a different yeah.

Kat (39:26)
Their tops are facing you rather than facing up. Yeah. They're pretty, but that

was what I was going for and that was my

Tiffany (39:36)
Okay, I get it now. I wonder how they keep those watered.

Kat (39:40)
I'm sure there's a whole system behind it that probably costs

Tiffany (39:42)
I'm sure.

Kat (39:42)
costs more than all the vegetables in the whole store. But Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (39:45)
Probably. Hashtag worth it.

but the other problem is like most perennial pollinator friendly plants, as we mentioned, we talked about can container gardening, would never survive in these tiny ass containers. So I'm sure that there are things even zinnias, like I don't I don't know what plant, like what flower that a bee loves or a butterfly loves.

you could grow in these things that are like this big.

Kat (40:15)
Yeah. Well, okay, so that's what I was thinking. Was one of the DIY things that I'm gonna talk about next week. was basically like they took a you know those

clothing racks that you can buy for like your studio apartment if you don't

Tiffany (40:32)
Yeah.

Kat (40:32)
have a closet and it just kind of stands in the corner, but it rolls around.

Tiffany (40:34)
Mm.

Kat (40:35)
Or you could use it in like a shop or something. And they basically like strung wires kind of across it. Or like took an old bookshelf and

Tiffany (40:42)
Okay.

Kat (40:42)
hung hanging pots basically

Tiffany (40:45)
Uh-huh.

Kat (40:46)
at different intervals to kind of make a hanging wall

Tiffany (40:49)
Yeah.

Kat (40:50)
that has bigger pots. So it's not those little dinky ones they're, you know

Tiffany (40:55)
Mm.

Kat (40:55)
they're eighteen inch ones and you hang them, you know, from hooks

Tiffany (40:59)
Yeah, that could be cool.

Kat (41:00)
rather than you're trying to do these tiny little, you know, airplant sized. Mhm.

Tiffany (41:03)
Right. That's still Yeah,

totally. That's still probably gonna be annuals.

Kat (41:10)
Yeah. You might

Tiffany (41:12)
Maybe not.

Kat (41:13)
could do perennials. Again, they do some perennials might. But again, perennials like

Tiffany (41:18)
Yeah.

Kat (41:18)
to kinda branch out and

Tiffany (41:20)
I was thinking like maybe ground covers of some sort. Like w wild geraniums maybe.

Kat (41:25)
Yeah.

Tiffany (41:25)
I don't know. I'm sure there's something. Leave leave leave us a little note somewhere in the there aren't comments.

Kat (41:33)
Well yeah, and again I

I I think this might be something that's better for tropical environments where, you know, orchids grow

Tiffany (41:39)
Yeah.

Kat (41:39)
against trees. They make great wall plants, you know, in

Tiffany (41:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kat (41:43)
a tropical environment where it's not gonna get below sixty degrees. And the humidity's always at eighty percent. Yeah. So

Tiffany (41:47)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I

think you're right about that for sure. so DIY is possibly a better option. Like we said, we both tried DIY. but depending on DIY. Well,

Kat (42:00)
Don't talk to me about it. I have a brown thumb for DIY too, so

Tiffany (42:04)
yeah, it's also more work and more planning. But depending

Kat (42:07)
Mm.

Tiffany (42:07)
on what you want to grow could be could be better. I actually think the one I found is not a bad option because it's like a five foot long planter and you can grow some stuff in that.

I didn't have time to look into green wall costs. I only looked at like green or vertical garden costs. But a few considerations. Maybe you you would know more after your quote from the ten thousand dollars. But like your structure, your manpower, your watering system, your maintenance, you're gonna have to think about all of those things. I think they aren't very cheap.

Kat (42:42)
Yeah.

Tiffany (42:43)
Which hay?

Kat (42:45)
Well I okay, but you're gonna talk about c community too. I mean, in your

Tiffany (42:47)
The benefits. Mm-hmm.

Kat (42:50)
community, this might be something worth talking about in an urban community is figuring

Tiffany (42:55)
Yeah.

Kat (42:56)
out, you know, getting a and not and getting a professionally installed green wall might be worth it. You

Tiffany (43:00)
Mm.

Kat (43:01)
know, lobbying your city councils like the street doesn't have enough room for trees, but could we try a green wall? 'Cause I know

Tiffany (43:07)
Yeah.

Kat (43:07)
I mean even green rooftops are getting huge in urban places that

Tiffany (43:13)
Yes.

Kat (43:13)
care about

the environment to for cooling and things. And I would think green walls would be good for that too.

Tiffany (43:15)
Uhhuh. I'm not saying the co it's

I'm not saying it should be cost prohibitive. I'm just saying it may be kind of expensive. I

Kat (43:23)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (43:24)
think it's worth it. But

Kat (43:27)
Again, any any time you can grow something in any space you have, give it a whirl. I think.

Tiffany (43:31)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm just thinking I don't know. I think it would be really cool to do like some sort of pioneer if your community doesn't have any green walls, do like a pioneer Do you hear that thunder?

Kat (43:45)
Grant. Yes, they do.

Tiffany (43:47)
Yeah, that's thunder. That's

Kat (43:50)
Wow.

Tiffany (43:50)
a crazy. But but yeah, you could be like the like implement the first one and call some reporters and I don't know, just like kind of

make it a thing and then I don't know, it's a cool idea. It's a really cool idea. Some space that's I can think of so many spaces that are so frickin' hot to hang out in and miserable and just make it better and then see what happens.

Kat (44:14)
Yeah. Why not? Yeah.

Tiffany (44:18)
So does the eco-friendly messaging need to come back to Earth? in terms of that book, yes, because this lady is a little cray cray about her

Kat (44:29)
Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (44:29)
vertical walls.

Because in the same sentence she's talking about how you can help pollinators. But then she also says, But if tropical plants don't grow near you, the heat of your wall may make it possible to grow them in your area And it's like, you weren't just talking about pollinators. I'm so confused.

Kat (44:46)
Let's not

plant tropical plants in Albuquerque, New Mexico and hope for the best, right? Let's

Tiffany (44:50)
Right. I mean you can if they're in a container or an

Kat (44:55)
An atrium? Yeah.

Tiffany (44:58)
atrium but you're not gonna like why? What's the point? Okay, they're pretty, whatever. But go on vacation. Go look at pictures.

Kat (45:08)
I know, right?

Go right.

Tiffany (45:14)
however it could be a really great way to grow certain plants, probably not all plants, but certain plants in a very small space. So in terms and then in terms of green walls in urban areas or in terms of surface temperature reduction, there's huge potential. That's very exciting.

And it shouldn't replace tree planting, but it could be a really good companion to it.

Kat (45:43)
I like it.

Tiffany (45:43)
Yeah. In summary. So I did do a granola rating for this.

Kat (45:47)
Okay.

Tiffany (45:48)
for most of our episodes we do granola ratings, which is basically how crunchy is it? Crunchy is better.

Kat (45:54)
Crunchy a better.

Tiffany (45:55)
Yeah, crunchy's good. it goes from one to five, soggy, mushy, chewy, crunchy, break your tooth off. I put this smack dab in the middle at chewy because it's all over the place.

Kat (46:06)
I could see that. Right.

There's no one direction that makes it and yeah, and there's so many like again consumer options getting in the way, right?

Tiffany (46:15)
Mm.

Kat (46:18)
Yeah, I could see that.

Tiffany (46:19)
Yeah. So it's like in certain instances it's so awesome. And in other instances it's like, well, kinda

Kat (46:27)
Yeah.

Tiffany (46:28)
depends what you're using it for.

Kat (46:29)
Yeah. I was a fr a friend of mine in New Jersey was saying she got one of those kind of hydroponic vertical gardens that does like

Tiffany (46:36)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (46:37)
herbs and stuff and tomatoes and things and she said it did great in her kitchen.

Tiffany (46:42)
Yeah.

Kat (46:43)
so it is a possibility. Like

Tiffany (46:45)
Yeah, I think those are really excellent for getting people into gardening. I love those things because I think a lot of people who don't know anything about gardening would start with that.

Kat (46:58)
Yeah, they're kits. They have kits.

Tiffany (47:00)
Yeah.

Kat (47:01)
That you y plant this little pot in here and turn the water on and then add food every couple of weeks or whatever. And it

Tiffany (47:07)
Uh-huh.

Kat (47:08)
circulates the water and does all the stuff and like that's easy.

Tiffany (47:11)
Yeah. And it's cool 'cause I feel like growing something for maybe the first time is sort of like

Kat (47:15)
It's so exciting.

Tiffany (47:16)
yeah, it's sort of like making bread for the first time. You're like, I did that? What? Right.

Kat (47:21)
And it's so easy. Yeah.

Tiffany (47:24)
Yes. Cause it seems like not easy, but it is. Yeah. so yeah, I think those can be good. I mean, I am curious about hydroponics, but I didn't have time to go into it. I don't know. Maybe next season.

Kat (47:38)
Yeah.

Tiffany (47:39)
But

Kat (47:40)
Cool.

Tiffany (47:40)
That's all I had. next week you are talking about how to make

Kat (47:45)
Up cycle

patio options.

Tiffany (47:48)
Yeah, like how to make your outdoor space more enjoyable that you actually use it and mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Kat (47:52)
Yeah. Without breaking the bank. Yeah.

Tiffany (47:56)
Or buying a bunch of shit you don't need.

Kat (47:58)
Right. Yeah, going

to Wayfair and spending ten thousand dollars.

Tiffany (48:02)
Mm. Yes, exactly. okay, sweet. So we are in the process of creating our next season. So if you have requests, we already have a couple. I don't well I have one about plastic plastics and baby supplies from one

of my friends. But that doesn't go with hydroponic. So I don't know.

Kat (48:26)
well yeah, we could just kinda do yeah.

Tiffany (48:28)
We could do a whole sh smorgish board.

Kat (48:31)
Yeah.

Tiffany (48:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. so whatever ideas you can send them to us in via email.

Kat (48:43)
We're at greening up my act at gmail dot com. Or we're on Instagram.

Tiffany (48:46)
Or Instagram.

Is it just at Greening Up My Act? It is. Yeah. W just send us some direct message and let us know what you want to hear about next season. So that's all I have. Thank you for listening.

Kat (48:59)
Yeah, perfect. Yeah.

Yeah, thank you. We'll see you next week.

Tiffany (49:04)
Alrighty. Bye.