Dynamic and unifying, Vanessa has been a communicator and entrepreneur in the world of marketing and brands for 10 years. Founder consultant at Unflapp, she guides the leaders of well-established companies towards their growth.
Lecturer at HEC Montréal, speaker and workshop leader, Vanessa thrives in the popularization of subjects such as brand management, marketing, consumer psychology as well as self-knowledge and the importance of relationships in business. Holder of a B.A. in psychology and an M.Sc. in marketing, Vanessa is often characterized as a “brand whisperer” and a “business psychologist”. One thing is certain, his interactive and transformational approach will change your outlook on marketing forever!
Interviewing inspiring book authors and leaders in various disciplines, Vanessa has a strong belief that if we let our genuine affection for people and for learning guide us, we will never stop growing (in life as well as in business).
(French) Dynamique et rassembleuse, Vanessa est communicatrice et entrepreneure dans le monde du marketing et des marques depuis 10 ans. Fondatrice consultante chez Unflapp, elle guide les dirigeants d’entreprises bien établies vers leur croissance.
Chargée de cours à HEC Montréal, conférencière et animatrice d’ateliers, Vanessa s’épanouit dans la vulgarisation des sujets tels que la gestion de marque,le marketing, la psychologie du consommateur ainsi que la connaissance de soi et l’importance du relationnel en affaires. Détentrice d’un B.A. en psychologie et d’une M.Sc. en marketing, Vanessa est souvent caractérisée de “brand whisperer” et de “psychologue des affaires”. Une chose est certaine, son approche interactive et transformationnelle changera votre regard sur le marketing à tout jamais!
Interviewer d’auteurs de livres et de leaders inspirants dans diverses disciplines, Vanessa a la forte conviction que si on se laisse guider par notre affection authentique pour les gens et pour l’apprentissage, nous ne cesserons jamais de croître (dans la vie tout comme en affaires).
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Olivier [00:00:00] Welcome to business, not 1 0 1 hosted by me, Olivier Bousette, founder, entrepreneur podcast creator. In this episode, we explore the founder's journey from their aha moment to the roadblocks and problems to what they would've done differently in hindsight, and the unique solutions they came up with. I hope you enjoy this episode.
Olivier Hi, Vanessa. Welcome to Business Not 101. How you doing?
Vanessa You good yourself?
Olivier Very good, very good. Thank you. Let's get right into it. Please introduce yourself and give us your 60 second business pitch.
Vanessa Absolutely. My name is Vanessa El-Chakieh and I dream of a more united world. I feel like the world is becoming more and more divided, and it is true also within our organizations at times. So whether it's. Between consumers and brands and between employees and employees, I feel like there's more of an awakening that there's such division.
And so my role and what my business does actually is to play the mediator between bringing these people together around the table and creating this [00:01:00] relationship. Through the art of simple conversations, which we feel, I feel like more and more we're missing out on, and I'm happy that more and more organizations are waking up to the cost of that division, either between departments or between, because it, it's infused with assumption, assuming what our clients want, assuming that that's what the team is doing.
And so, My goal is to infuse data insights and real conversations in order to create impact for the organization. So we do this between different departments and we've been doing this for 10 years, helping companies, you know, grow their sales, helping companies reach their highest numbers and sometimes 50 years, and doing it through the power of strengthening the consumer brand relationship or employee employee relationship.
And so that's really what the business is about, starting with a. , you know, kind of message or vision of a more United World and doing it on small skills in organizations.
Olivier Sounds about interesting. So what was the aha moment, sort of the pivotal moment that said, This is the direction I'm gonna take my [00:02:00] enterprise or my business?
Vanessa Well, you see, I 10 years ago cuz that's when I entered the world of business, I was on my path to become a university professor and I was about to do my PhD and so I don't really have an aha moment. But what happened is I love people. I love having conversations with people profound conversations.
And I went for a dental dental treatment and a conversation with a surgeon turned into him seeing potential in me helping him in marketing 10 years. And I signed a deal and I trusted myself. He trusted me and I worked with this private practice of surgeons for two years and that's how I got into business.
There was no aha for me. It's just my love for people and talking and knowing that I can help and them noticing the opportunity before me cuz I'm driven by relationships. and they're driven probably by opportunities, I guess. And so there was no aha per se. And so 10 years later, I feel like I completed my PhD in entrepreneurship.
So that's, that's my, that's my story.
Olivier That's really interesting. Did you feel when you first [00:03:00] started off? I mean, obviously you must have a background in marketing, You understand it. So when you started this, did you feel that the opportunity was a niche market for you so that you were gonna only stay within, let's say, the medical field? Or did you feel this is, can actually go and expand across multiple fields and you were gonna go just build up your business from there?
Vanessa Yeah, so I studied psychology at first, so I'm a psychology former grad student, and I then entered the world of marketing cuz I love consumers and understanding the consumer mind. Never did any business plan like you see now. No ahas. I, I'm not a business, I'm not an entrepreneur at heart, I'm an entrepreneur at mind, so I never really had these reflections.
Do I stay ne like when I first started, I mean like, do I stay niche? Do I not? If I were to, you know, walk you through my portfolio in business, I would say I met this person. They needed that, they offered me this. I thought I could do it. I did it. And then it was word of mouth. So I never really, It's only later, you know, as I, I gained experience in the world of business that I [00:04:00] started asking myself, do I stay niche or not?
Cuz like, my first, first ever client was in the world of the medical world. Surgeons, The seconds were a second. And, and, and by the way, funny story, the way I got the, the way I, I signed the second deal is because I was working on the surgeon's mandate while having coffee at Second Cup back then.
And then I became friends with the founder, the, the, the, the franchise owner. And he kept asking me question, What are you doing? And that's, that's my story. That's, see, but I'm on the fit on agree from one person to the next. And so I, I, yeah, I kind of explored a variety of, of disciplines of industries
Olivier so interesting and a unique path. So I'm curious, do you build your whole community, your business community around you through just network relationships? Or are you actively seeking out customers?
Vanessa I, I, I really, I'm a relator. I'm all about relationships and maintaining durable, authentic relationship. That's really what is my guide every single day. And that turns into me. You know, that's, that's, [00:05:00] that's turning into me, you know, getting, entering the world of business or the world of teaching, or the world of.
So it's, it's really and you know, in business building relationship is called business development. I prefer relationship building. So I'd say it's just me arriving in the business world, you know, and, and saying, Oh my God, I love people. I love learning, I love conversations. And then, because the, the, what I love about the business mindset is they're seeking opportunities and they're seeking this network.
Then I kind of, I guess it's, yeah, it's, I, I'd say I was just always focused about people and helping them and, and, and that kind of grew my network like that. Yeah, and that's probably why at the beginning I, I was more in a position of seeing yes or no to opportunities rather than creating them because I'm just going building relationships.
But the, what's beautiful about the business mindset is they're like, Oh yeah, Vanessa could definitely help us with this, this before I knew how I can help them. So that's kind of like the way I've been building my community around me is just relationships.
Olivier Yeah, it sounds like, it sounds like you're really into the referral programs and they're doing the business [00:06:00] aspect of selling your services before you even get in front of the customer, and that's a unique experience.
Vanessa Yeah, I mean, I always said I'm good at building my brand, but I'm not really good at the sales aspect. You know, I'm good at attracting people and being like, Okay, like I feel like I can trust this person. You know, she, she knows what she's doing great personality and she cares, but I'm not the best at closing deals, for instance.
Right. So the idea is that I think I'm just yeah, I think it's just growing organically. Word of. And I'd say like, you know, people call this strategy in business, but it's, I just really care. I just really care. Like during Covid time, although it's not done, but during the Thema I was just picking up the call of the phone and calling former clients, seeing how they're doing.
And some of my business friends are like, Did you pitch anything? Are you upselling? I'm like, No, I could I not just call and see how they're doing with no nothing, Sign up to my email. No. No. Le nothing. And, and, and, and clients were, my former clients were reacting like as if like they won the lottery. Oh my god, Vanessa hasn't been, but there was no call to action.
And I [00:07:00] feel like either I'm a black sheep in business or the business world could, you know, maybe get inspired by adding, just, just like no objective. I feel like, yeah, maybe I'm, I'm a bit atypical in that sense. I don't know.
Olivier Yeah, it's, it's a really interesting, cuz there isn't most cases when people are talking or they reach out to their customers is for sales goal. Right? But I agree with you. I think in today's community, this business world, we want to cultivate, having an open relationship is something that's unique. It's not every day you see that.
So I, I agree with you. That's probably, that's why they'll react really
Vanessa But I have to say, because I'm, I'm, I'm very comfortable saying the, the other side of this is obviously I, I, I how can I say it? It obviously somehow limits my financial gains, and I'm aware of this because the relationship gains for me on the long run is way more important than the financial gains.
Like, I could have sold them a little package if I wanted to at the end of the call, but I'm not driven by the sales. So obviously I don't make, like, how can I explain? It's a how do you call that? Like a, not a trade off, but I mean, if I were to [00:08:00] be sales pitchy on every single relationship I've built, I'd probably have a built I don.
Something way bigger than what I've been
Olivier A massive empire, you know?
Vanessa I gotta, We're exaggerating there, but yeah. Like, you see what I mean? So there's pros and cons I guess to my, my outlook and I'm aware of it
Olivier But I think that's also your unique aspect, right? That's your persona of your business. If you're gonna go off and become a hard salesperson, it might not, you may not have the same success as you do now. So I think it's a bit of a trade off, but it's one that pays off and it's really hard
Vanessa in the long run, I guess.
Olivier Yeah, we hope
Vanessa They will help. I'll let you know in a few years,
Olivier Yeah, that's it. But one other question is, so how do you go about and market yourself then once as you build up sort of this relationship and this sort of community that's doing a lot of your upfront selling for you and referrals, but how do you go off, let's say, go to a new city where people don't know you or you don't have those relationships?
So how do you typically do that?
Vanessa I honestly, it always, always starts if I, if I, I always starts with me talking to a stranger. Because I'm interested in something they're [00:09:00] doing or I saw something and then the conversation, you know, I don't like small talk. A lot of people's like, Oh van, you're always, I'm not about small talk.
Actually, I've learned how to deepen small talks, so I have a lot of small talks. And then, I don't know, I'd be talking to someone or like a lot of my clients today, a lot of them, I'm exaggerating, but like I'd say like maybe like one fifth of them I were, I was client of their. Who really cared about what they did before I even ever saw the other flip.
So probably if I were to go to another country right now, and I would probably have two approaches depending on if I know what I'm about to accomplish there. But I would really probably just have a conversation with people around me that is guided by sincere interest. And then, I don't know what this unfolds to, or I would just, like, let's say assuming I had a, a clear idea of what I wanted to reach as a goal, then I would again, just reach out to people for coffee, reach out to people for a walk or to go, you know, an activity.
To have just the, the first time is always just relationship building. I don't even pitch my, my project the first time I said, Can me who is interested in your [00:10:00] profile have a real conversation? No objective. I just wanna learn. And then whatever unfolds, unfolds, I'm, I'm really more in that, you know, versus, Those messages we get on LinkedIn like, Hi, my name is this.
I do this. Let me know if you need my help. I'm more like, Hey, I think you have a great thing. I wanna learn from you. And then if I feel like there's a fit, then we talk about. You know, it's like people wanna get married, It's like arranged marriage. Sometimes they feel like we're like, Hey, this is me, I'm doing this.
This is you. I guess I'm not into that philosophy. I'm sure it works for some people maybe. But yeah, I think it's more like just getting to know the person so Well, and then like at one point we're having a meeting and like one of us gets a live bulb. Oh, I think we can, Oh, I think you can. Or I think that will be my approach, just meeting with people.
I'm curious, sincerely curious about there. That's the answer.
Olivier Yeah, that's really a great way to go about it. And it's building up certainly when you're in operation of one person and you can't go off and do hard sales and constantly just paying on social media. I know that personally. So that's really brilliant. How do you juggle [00:11:00] all of your roles?
Because I believe you're also teaching correct.
Olivier so, I mean, this definitely takes up a lot of your day. And how do you juggle your customers? Is do you have a system in place that does this or are you just sort of like wing it every.
Vanessa So I, because I care so much about investing myself fully when I work with someone, and it's all about relationship, I limit the number of clients I take per year. As well. Plus it creates a feeling that, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fully dedicated for me. And so I'm a part-time lecturer, so that's not full-time teaching, so part-time lecturing.
I also do you know, trainings, a lot of trainings and I also take, you know, a certain number of clients per years. So and I also have a team today that accompanies me in certain things, right? So I feel like. I feel like for me, you know, nothing changes. Like even me speaking with you right now, Oliver, I feel like it's the same van, just a different hat.
So I never felt like it was juggling. I think I just have a business model that's around multiple income streams and it's the same van that's presenting herself to the world. The only difference is am I working on your [00:12:00] brand? Am I speaking to, you know, entrepreneurs together about their brands or is it students who are aspiring to be leaders?
That I'm speaking, it's just the audience that changes. And it seems like it's, you know, very different. So I think it's, yeah, managing my time that way of being a bit part-time everywhere and I love the variety of my work versus just being full-time teaching or full-time consultants. So yeah,
Olivier Yeah, no, that's, that's still true. Having a diversity in your day makes it much more interesting than just being stuck to one single desk, you know,
Vanessa I've accepted that with time. Yeah,
Olivier Yeah. And do you feel with your students, do they give you a lot of feedback that you then translate to your business?
Vanessa Well, I have to say that part of the teaching that I love the most is I learn enormously with my students. I, there's a student that actually wrote a testimonial that said in Vanessa's class, it's either like, we're all teachers together or we're all students together. So for me, it's always such a, a learning environment, but your question is, am I learning from my student?
To help me in [00:13:00] my business concretely I would say one thing, not not, I wouldn't see this as a direct link. I would see it more as when they they've helped me better clarify what I do in business. Because when I present myself, I don't like talking a lot about what I do or my, or myself and all that.
But when they ask me questions, I'm like, Oh, I wasn't clear. They still don't get what branch strategist is. So, and I can imagine if they don't get it, how would a client who's not from marketing understand me? So I think they've helped me more as better communicate what I do in business. But aside from that, I mean, I do have one person on my team who was a former student who started with Aach and now is helping me with some of the reflection that we.
So I think that's another way to see how they've helped me. But no, I think they're just helping me be a happier, more energized person and yeah, learning with them. So I guess they help me grow.
Olivier I, I was curious because do they give their interpretation of what they see? And I think that's really important because I find we work in silos as as entrepreneurs
Vanessa That's it. That's, that's it. That's, [00:14:00] you know what, That's the term I should have said in my pitch at the beginning. When I say things are divided, I think it's that I, I am standing against in silos. Effect, let's call it like that. So, yeah, I think yeah, I think so. I think they do help me with feedback.
I mean just even with the, the, yeah, when we speak about cases, like when I bring in guests or, or clients to class, Of course. Yeah. No, it's, it's always good. I'm, I'm I'm obsessed with collecting perspectives, so yeah, they've helped me with that too.
Olivier So. What is one major roadblock you've encountered in your business, in your life, around your business that you feel like, Oh, I should warn people about this
Vanessa yeah. To me the roadblock, you know, when, when you love learning so much, you you know, learning and growing go together, and when you're constantly in a state of growth, sometimes you feel how can I explain this? That the way you define yourself always changes because you're growing. And so for me, one roadblock has been the acceptance that loving learning is helping me [00:15:00] grow and growing makes it that even the way I describe myself, changes the people I serve, changes the type of services I offer changes, and having to constantly be updating things.
And the way I. Speak on my website and what I see in my conferences, I've, I've often seen it as I'm different and it's not a good thing. You should have one bio and grow with it, with time. And so I'm an explorer and, and the fact that I learn and grow and that I am right now, the, the, the with my team, like, I mean, but I am, it's obviously the, the business.
I always say a business is the extension of the entrepreneur who founded it. Well, I think having to accept that There will always be constant change in my organization. And I think I had mentioned it last time, but the way I'm gonna, I pitched to my business today will not be the same way I pitch it next week, and I have accepted that.
And so that has created a lot of roadblock for me with, Oh my God, I need a, I need to send a bio for this conference. I need to send a bio for this podcast, or I need, and it's, I always need to update it. Yeah, accepting that growth of a, of the leader and the fact that I can choose and, and reinvent myself [00:16:00] yeah, that, that's created a lot stress for me in the past.
So that's one of the roadblocks. There's more, but,
Olivier Yeah, there always is in business, so that I know, but it's something that's really a great point to bring up because I think all entrepreneurs, any founder, any, even CEOs and C-suites have the same issue. Our bios are diverse and they're fluid. So unless you work for the same company your entire life in the same role, then it's something that you constantly have to update and change. I do. I notice that too when I do bios for social media. So
Vanessa Yeah. And, and especially, you know, with a, with a profile like mine where, you know, I worked as a, I was a, a, a portrait photographer, I was a wedding photographer. I worked in marketing, doing social media management, and then I, you know coming from a background in psychology and then working now as a branch strategist and now teaching, it's like, , you know I'm constantly looking to find, cuz the thing is the, the message has never changed.
And, and what, you know, my purpose and my personality and my identity never changed. So, you know, one thing I can recommend to our listeners would be that, you know, [00:17:00] focus on the things that don't change. All my clients have the same issue. Okay, we need to update our website. I'm like, Yes. But in the meantime, focus on the things that will never change.
And so come back to, you know, ground yourself with that anchor. So that's been a lesson, a big lesson for me. And I turned this world back into a lesson that I focus on. Yeah,
Olivier Excellent. That's the way it should be.
Vanessa I think so.
Olivier So if you were to tell our listeners you know, three things that you really should concentrate, on their brand. Now, speaking about what you were saying, things that you, you know, that are steady or that fixed, but what are three major points you would tell any of your customers?
This is what you should focus on your brand, what would they be?
Vanessa The first thing would be and one of the things I feel that is often missed or overlooked, sit in your customer's shoes. Spend a day in their shoes, Put yourself in the customer. Stop assuming, and we think, Oh yeah, we're gonna put this, People are gonna buy like assumptions, Like forget assumptions.
Go spend a, you know, do some interviews with your customer. You know, go shopping with them. There's the founder of Pinterest. I love. He says, [00:18:00] he goes, he goes have lunch with his customers to understand pinners. I think that will be the first thing. The brand does not belong to the organization. The brand does not belong to the leader.
The brand belongs to the hearts and minds of the consumers who will interact and consume the brand. And once a leader understands this, Wait, my brand doesn't belong to me. No, your name belongs to you, but you're creating this for them. How about you look at your product through the them perspective? That will be number one.
I'm, I'm obsessed. Like I said earlier, with perspectives doesn't change. So that would be the first thing. The second thing is once you've understood your own, the the other perspective, then you can compare with, I say this, they say that we want this, they want that, and then you're able to kind of make a link with this.
But the second point would be, You know, like what makes you different from the others? There's so many brands doing so many similar things for similar clients and, and sometimes my clients, they come to me, they're like, Vanessa, we want a website. Here's our competitor's website. We wanna look like that.[00:19:00]
I'm like, but that, that goes against the purpose. So my message will be, the more you look at your competition, the more you'll start resembling them and then you making your, the consumer's life so complicated. So I would say which brings me to my third point, So yes, know the difference. You obviously to know the difference.
you need to look around fine, but not to define yourself, which leads me to number three. Which would be Nodi self Plato or Irish Dot said it back then and I'm sorry guys. I don't know which one of you guys it is, but one of that nodi self. It's so simple and it's so often forgotten when I ask my clients, What are your values?
Well, oh, what was in the document? We had it . That's, I get some reactions like this. Or I get, you know, our values. Yes, well, we care about this, but we're, or we get the, or we get those at like 1, 2, 3, you know, But oftentimes they're not looking here. And so how do you, how are you supposed to build a relationship with someone whom you don't know?
And neither, you know yourself, like people have an easier time [00:20:00] communicating about who they are than really, really, really knowing who they are. And so it's the same thing with organizations. They always have a foggy understanding of them and fine. That's, that's good. And that's why we have, that's why my role exists and the role of branch strategist and specialists exists, and or marketing strategists.
But I would say like, really. Knowing it so well that if you were to give a Ted Talk, you'd speak about it in, let's say, not 20 minutes, but five minutes was so much conviction that the audience, even though they might not need your product or service, will a adhere to your message. So I would say would be that I don't know if it, They're summarized as three.
Yeah. Yeah. They're, I, This was all spontaneous answer.
Olivier Excellent. So my next question is be, what is something that really excites you about your industry? Because it's changing, It's such a fluid industry, and we're not just talking about brand strategy, but we're talking about marketing and talking about all that. How know 10, 15 years ago, most companies didn't even look at this and whereas today it's, it's forefront, It's really in their mind.
So what's one trend that you're really excited [00:21:00] about in your industry
Vanessa a trend I don't know if I would call it a trend, but what I'm happy to see more of is brands interacting with their customers. Obviously it goes with number one. I put it even number one, it's brands realizing that without their consumers, there is no brand. So I, I love the fact when I seek, you know, brands involving consumers, interacting with consumers more and more, it's not a one way conversation that, that also makes me very happy.
And another trend you know, I never really underst. To that, because I come from psychology, so I'm biased. But the humanizing of things, the, the humanification, I don't know what word I'm coming up with right now. So ap, excuse me for that. But I come from psychology where it's all about human. So I'm, I'm, I'm entering the world of business with a pair of glasses, which is human.
And so I enter the world of business and all I read is Human 2.0. Make sure you humanize, humanize. I'm like, what have we been in the world of business while I was studying psychology? What, what is going on? So for me, even though [00:22:00] I don't fully, well, now I understand it I'm happy to see that. So I think it just boils down to yeah, that, that part, the human part, the communication part, the dialogue.
Olivier Yeah, I agree with you. I see that a lot more. I think I don't really think, I believe it that a lot of brands and companies are creating a much more human side to themselves. They're being much more aware of their customers and how they, they sort of fit in there as before they were more mechanical about it.
Vanessa Hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Olivier All right, so now let's switch it up a little bit. I wanna talk about you as an entrepreneur, and one question is how do you stay organized? Because you have a lot of roles, so how do you stay organized?
Vanessa I don't know. Maybe you can help me with that. I'm not the, I'm not the most structure. I'm organized, but I'm not very structured. How do I stay organized? Well By prioritizing, by always, I guess one way of organizing, which might sound like, it's not like a straight answer, but always choosing what energizes me is one way that helps me always stay organized.
But it's it's an ongoing thing. Like I [00:23:00] feel like I can be, I can always be more organized. I get the help of people around me, So I do have a, a, a person on my team who helps me with structuring things. Believe it or not, my mom is a great source of inspiration for organization. So whenever I need to organize a bunch of things, whether it's for a contract or even for my class, what I do actually is I call her up or I call up someone on my team and I say, Okay, this is what I'm trying to do.
Can you help me? Just structure. So I'm usually good with, I usually, like, let's say I bring in a box of puzzle pieces. I'm good with that, but I just always need an extra brain to help me just sort it out. But I always have the right pieces in place. Everything is complete. So I'd say that and taking, I take a lot of notes.
I, I have a calendar. I use my notebooks. So think it's all these tools, but I have to say, it's not my, it's not my superpower. Far from it.
Olivier That's okay. I asked that question cuz I think it's an honest answer, right? One former guest is that he uses a virtual assistant that forces him to be all organized because it takes a couple hours a week. And this person, that's [00:24:00] what they do, They keep him organized and he's like, If I didn't have that, I would just be running around and missing a lot of opportunities.
Vanessa very interesting. Okay.
Olivier So next question what is the book or that you've read or listened to that's influenced you and your business life?
Vanessa I love that question. There are so many, I'm looking by the way, I'm looking at the books when I look. It's cuz things are inspiring me around here. But I think the main book that influenced me, well, the first thing I'd like to say is one of the things I've learned the most and that I'm the most proud of, and you'll see the link in my life in business, is my ability to manage my emotions
all of them. So nothing can shake me anymore except like when what I'm reading in the news and what's going on in the world, that that can really sadden me and affect me. But no one can, Like I, I'm really, I've learned to really, very well manage my emotions and I owe my lots of gratitude to one book that has.
Completely help me with this, which is meditation by Marcus Sores. He's a, a philosopher [00:25:00] stoic philosopher who wrote a book, and it has nothing to do with meditation in the conventional sense. It's his thoughts. It's him audio not audio journaling. That's what I do. It's him writing down like a diary that it's like a, a book of his thoughts that were published and it's so well.
explained and written, and it brings you back to the basics of life. And he often speaks also about his perspective on death, which has also helped me cope with my own. And that's why I live with zero anxiety today, and I, and I mean it well, 0.5 for the exceptions that I can't think of now. Or one. But it's really, really helped me manage my emotions and become a better human and therefore a better leader, a better teacher, a better, and all the other things.
So it, it's part of why I feel like I'm unflappable today, which is the inspiration of the name of my organization unFlap. That's why I had called it unflap. I help leaders and people and students learn how to be more unla. And therefore create the impact that they want to create. So I would say that book, and for those of the listeners, it's a little bit written, very philosophically, ancient [00:26:00] twice, but another book that is kind of has the same message but very mainstream is the subtle art of not giving a. Kind of the same message. I don't know if we can you beep things. So I didn't wanna say it. But it will be that book, it's kind of the same gist, but one is just very entertaining in 20, like tw two thousands versus 21st centuries. It's, I should say, versus very, like more I don't know how to call it.
But yeah, so I would say these, this is the number one book.
Olivier Yeah, I do love that second book,
Vanessa You, you, okay. So.
Olivier I do. And it's true. I, I don't know how it'd work with Apple Podcast if I suddenly have to put explicit or not because of that book title. So,
Vanessa what meant
Olivier Yeah, you have to sort of beep, but no, it's, it you know, it's funny, It's a great book and I actually lended out to somebody and I think they liked it so much.
I never got it back.
Vanessa know on the Give Me By Back
Olivier Yeah, exactly. Well that's great. That's great. My next question, this is one personally, cuz I always like to ask this and if you can have coffee with any
Olivier entrepreneur that would, [00:27:00] you could have like, and pick their brain for an hour, who would it be? and why?
Vanessa An entrepreneur
Vanessa in business person.
Olivier or anybody, actually. Anybody that would influence your life.
Vanessa To influence my life, like in that perspective. Well, I don't know. The first person that comes to mind is my, my somebody I absolutely love, like I'm total fan of Neil Degra Tyson. That will be my first answer. I don't know if you're into a strong, I'm such a fan of Neil Degra. Neil. I'm gonna interview you one day.
But I, I, I, I love Neil and he comes from the astrophysicist. He's an astrophysicist. So coming from the astronomy world, we have so much to learn from other disciplines in business. So I would say that my favorite entrepreneur, if we were to define the word differently, will be anyone who's not in business.
I, I obviously love and respect many entrepreneurs. I just feel like because I'm obsessed with perspectives and that's part of my big message and we're always in silos my answer would be more influenced by someone outside of that world that could teach us different ways to look at things, cuz that's when we do things differently.
So yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave [00:28:00] that world. But I think he's an entrepreneur in his own, in, in his own way, obviously, depends on how we define it. Yeah, he's the first person that comes to mind.
Vanessa Do you know, do you know Neil?
Olivier Yeah, I do. I actually follow 'em on TikTok, so yeah, and it's such a unique, because I, it's something I didn't expect to come out of this question, but that's really
Vanessa Well, it, it, it, it even me who's like into the, I'm, I'm seeing even in my own answers, which are all spontaneous, by the way. I never, even though you had sent me, I don't like to look at questions. I, I, I so believe in spontaneity, which is why I'm not always so structured, but I love spontaneity and, and now I'm noticing, I'm like, if people listen to this is like she's so obsessed with perspective.
Even the person she wants to interview has something to do.
Olivier That's okay. That's what, That's why people get a
Vanessa just who I'm, you know? Yeah,
Olivier Yeah, because they get to see you for in a different light than they would normally, So I think it's super
Vanessa I guess. Yeah.
Olivier All right. My last question. How could people reach out to you and connect?
Vanessa Yes, absolutely. And I'd love for them to gimme feedback, ask me questions. I love conversations as I think I'm made clear. in my interview. On [00:29:00] Instagram, Vanessa Elch, v a n e s s a e l c H. They can also check me out, Vanessa Oshay on YouTube. And I'm working on this my website for the time being, which, which needs to be changed.
Going back to one of your questions, but it's un flap.com, so U U N F L A P. Dot com and on, on LinkedIn, Vanessa shaky they'll find me there.
Olivier That's great and we're gonna put all that on our show notes as
Olivier I wanna thank you so much for joining us today. It was really fun.
Vanessa Thank you for having me. I had, I had a good time.
Olivier Thank you for joining us today and listening to this episode of business, not 1 0 1. I hope that this interview gave you some invaluable insights and that will help you along your business journey. If you have any questions, comments, feel free to reach out to me and as always, please like share and follow.
Thank you and until next episode.