Say It Like You Mean It

Skippers jump to 37:58 

Announcing the grand return of The Scripturient Society! Ash and Karissa are back at it—this time diving even deeper into dialogue. We’ll explore why dialogue can either pull readers in or send them out the back door, starting with pet peeves they can’t ignore. Then they’ll break down practical, real-world techniques for writing dialogue that feels authentic, dynamic, and emotionally grounded—along with a few more pet peeves along the way.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Hello, fellow writers. I'm Lewis. That over there is Tolkien, and you have found the Scripturian Society. Thought I got a mixed up.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Oh my god. It's been a hot second. It's been like several hot seconds. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Welcome back to everyone, including us.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Yeah, welcome back, Carissa, Catherine, Kat, Kathy. Amazing. I have no idea what I typically said during our intro. I don't remember anymore.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

It's been too long. It's a miracle I remembered that one.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

So I'm impressed that you did. I would go. Yeah. Um, if you guys hear the sound of baby cooing, that is my baby, my new baby Callahan. He is cooing. He's eight weeks old. If you hear the sound of my other child, two and a half year old Riley, crying, that's actually probably the sound of Flora, my cat. Yeah. Right behind me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

I mistook. I was like, hey, is that Riley in the background? She's like, no, that is in fact the cat.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

That is the cat. It's like, and she does not hang out with me much these days at all since we moved. And um I feel like there's something about recording where she's like, ah, this is familiar to me. Let me come be in the way. Because you're always she's just like trying to get up in my lap right now. She never does that. There is a baby in her lap, Flora. Goodness. Yeah, excuse you, Flora. She's like, I don't care about the children. I don't care about the naked kittens. She does uh that might also be why she usually avoids me, is because I always have a child attached to me. And Riley is loud and insane. So how old is he now?

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Is he three? He's not three.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

He is two and a half, but he is the size of a four and a half year old. And I know this because he has outgrown the four T clothes. And it's he's so gangly and uncoordinated, and his love is so violent.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

He did when I was there, he did lay on my face in the middle of the night. So I I thought that was a good step for us, but yeah, it was a strange affection.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Yeah, he's definitely still like that. We're cautiously like, don't jump on your brother's head. Just constantly. It's like, but what else am I supposed to do? Exactly. He's like, but I just want to play with my baby brother Callahan. Why wouldn't I jump on him or layout?

SPEAKER_02 2:39

What else am I supposed to do?

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Floor's in the background, so we are using a new system, so hopefully this works well. This is I was like, why don't we try a whole new thing uh while we're also trying to get back into the swing of recording? So hopefully start from early. Yeah, exactly. We've got this whole this whole cool new thing now. I was like, wow, we're really excited. That's a lot of cheering. Very cool. Anyway, so that's fun. So I'll be throwing those intermittently just to try to throw off Catherine. Um but before we get started with today, what we're gonna talk about writing things, because that's what we do uh here at the Scriptorian Society. Which is where you are, is uh you found. Yeah, welcome. You know, ook, ooh, Callahan welcomes you as well. Yes. Um I'm like accidentally like like hiding his face from you guys, which I usually do on social media with my children anyways, but this is an accident.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

The Mike is doing extra work.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Yeah, the Mike is um, yeah, a a paid actor. Is that what they say? Is that what the kids say?

unknown 3:59

I know.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Dude, Gen Z slang is really kicking my butt lately. I'm like, I think I know what you mean, but I'm not totally sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

I'm not like a hundred percent sure. Yeah, I said uh the other day I I was describing something, and I was like, Yeah, and I clocked this right when the guy came in or whatever. And that has been a phrase for a very long time. Yeah, yeah. But apparently it's popular again. And Javi was like, oh my god, are you trying to be hit? And I was like, What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 4:25

I'm actually going retro. I thought I was like a decade behind.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Yeah, I was like, no, this is just a normal thing to say. And he's like, I've never heard you say that. And I was like, I think that you never clocked me saying that I clocked because you're so into the TikTok world that now you're noticing it more.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

That's right. The trends happen too fast. The one that's been getting to me is the he's cooked or she's cooked or whatever. I'm like, I get what it means, but I'm like, why?

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Like, why why are we cooked? And then um the use of the word diabolical for things that are not truly diabolical. That one has thrown me. I think cooked is funny. The whole diabolical thing gets me because I'm like, that word is this very specific word.

unknown 5:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Why are we?

SPEAKER_02 5:11

The one I hate, I genuinely hate it, and I hate that I'm even giving it airtime, is the six-seven thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

I do not comprehend this. First of all, slang makes it's supposed to make sense. Cooked makes sense, clocked makes sense. This doesn't make any sense. I don't even know what it's maybe supposed to mean. And also, there are genuine situations in which you use six-seven. Like if I'm saying I had like six, seven crackers, I don't mean anything weird by that. I just mean I had six to seven crackers.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Like I wasn't counting specifically, we're somewhere in the range of six to seven crackers.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

And then like now people say it, and I'm like, I genuinely don't know if you're trying to be hip or if you're just giving me an accurate number count.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Yeah. Like it's very irritating. So funny that you're having a couple of things. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Make it stop.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

I Javi had to ex- I didn't even know six, seven was a thing that existed. But then Javi was showing me some video and he was like, I just hate six, seven. And I was like, you hate the numbers six and seven?

SPEAKER_02 6:08

I thought it had something to do with that old joke. That's why was um why was six afraid of seven? And it's because seven, eight, nine. I genuinely thought that's what it was. I'm like, oh, because seven is is scary.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

It's like what? I mean, that makes more sense than what it is, which is I think that there's no to my understanding, there's nothing behind it, which is I know. I mean, Javi couldn't tell me, and he's super in with the kids.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

It's one of those if you know, you know, but I don't think the people who know actually know. Yeah, I don't think they just all pretend to make the rest of us feel ridiculous. I know that's what's happening. I can tell.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

If anyone out there can explain the use of six seven in the Gen Z application, could you please reach out to us?

unknown 6:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

I really want to know. I'm interested in linguistics. I just don't understand. I think that's probably also why we find these things either so strange or so frustrating. Is because you're like linguistically, there's nothing here. What is the etymology of six seven?

SPEAKER_02 7:05

I don't understand people in the future studying our our down the downfall of our civilization would have no idea what this means.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

No, they have no idea. It's not fair. Like it was uh it was a code of some sort. And then the truth is we don't even know nobody actually knew what the code meant. It's a secret code that that no one understands.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

That no one understands. It's so secret, no one knows it.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

It's so secret. It's even a secret from the people who made it up.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Anyways, um I'm not really a slang person in general, anyway, so I don't even know why I care. It's just a lot of the stuff I watch or like TikTok or whatever uses it, and I'm like, this is really aging me out.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

I don't be able to like at least understand it a little bit. I've almost never been able to really comfortably use slang. It always sounds wrong when I do it. Yeah, and I've I've accepted that. But like now I can't even like context clues. Six seven is one I can't even get with context clues. I know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

The only one I think it's Gen Z, the only one I use, like, at least in my own head, is the can we be so for real right now? I do like that one.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

That's a good one. Can we be so for real right now? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

It's just the right amount of passive aggressive. I like it.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

It is. It's really to be so for real.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Can we just be so for real?

SPEAKER_03 8:24

It also just feels like that was something like that should have been like something that came about in the heyday of Lizzie McGuire. Yes, it feels old. It does feel old. To be so for real. So can we just be so for real? That is it. I will see if it comes up. There's there's one, there is one that I think is funny that I use sometimes. And I can't think of it right now.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Gently work it into the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

I'll just work it in and you're gonna be like, I hate it.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Probably nine times out of ten.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Anyways, um, Carissa, how has your life been since the last time we recorded? Which was a year and a half? Yeah, I was like well over a year ago for sure. Yeah, my life is basically your whole year and a half.

unknown 9:09

I know.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

My life is basically the same, to be really honest. Uh to be so for real. Yeah. I mean, more writing, yeah, to be so for real. I did I've done some writing, I'm doing work, I've been working a lot of overtime, so that's nice money, but busy money. You've got the right. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, not not much. Um but I like it that way.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

So I mean you're like you know pretty pretty decently content.

unknown 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Ash has a lot of news, but she likes to be busy. So do I?

SPEAKER_03 9:45

Do I have a lot of news? Well, mine is in some ways the opposite in that I've gotten to write almost nothing and I'm have no money for.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

So Well, it's not like you have kids or anything to spend money on, so no, it's your children and they love to be expensive.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

I mean, they have so much fun being so expensive. And the bookshop and editing on the side, and I have another full-time job, and uh, that was fun. And then being pregnant for the better part of a year, which is just crazy sometimes when I think about how long you have to be pregnant for. I'm like, it is well over. It's like the majority of a year.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Yeah. If you include like trying to, it's probably about a year or more.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Yeah, exactly. A year or more. And then the recovery is also like three more months minimum for most people. And I mean, full recovery is actually more like one to two years, but like the basic recovery they call like the fourth trimester, which is like the three months after birth. So anyways, I feel like that's just been zapping my everything and making life feel so much harder for the last year because being pregnant's not fun, and I I kind of think that every woman who says that she loves being pregnant might be lying. I don't know if they're all lying intentionally.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

I have no context yet, but I think I would enjoy being pregnant.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

You think so?

SPEAKER_02 11:10

I think I would.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

If you okay, so when you're pregnant, if you enjoy it and you tell me to enjoy it, I'll believe you. Yes. You might be the only person that I'll believe.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

I will be your your I don't litmus test, that's not the right term. I don't know. Yeah, bellwether. That's bad.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

You'll be my bellwether. I'll know if you say it, then I'll suddenly believe that it's possible for women to enjoy pregnancy. This one legitimately almost killed me. I had my appendix removed whilst pregnant. That was crazy. Uh I had I got a subcorionic hemorrhage, which is much scarier than it sounds. It wasn't that big a deal, but it was freaky. Um, it's less scary than it sounds. Yeah, it's less scary than I say.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

I thought you said it's much scarier. And I was like, hemorrhage already sounds pretty bad.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

I meant much less scary than it sounds. Yeah. Um, but it was scary to experience. Uh and then good lord. Uh I got two severe UTIs that required antibiotics whilst I was pregnant, whilst I had the subchorionic hemorrhage. Um got hand, foot, and mouth twice, thanks to my son. Awesome, super great, super fun. Uh see, then then and then my appendix had to come out, and I had to go to the doctor and fight to make them believe I had appendicitis because they did not believe it. The I don't know what they thought. And so they just I was there for four hours before they finally gave me two Tylenol. And I was like, This seems insufficient. Yeah. I honestly can say I've not been in that much pain since I gave birth the first time. I was like, this is an insane level of pain. Anyone who's had appendicitis now, when my brother had it and he got his appendix out, I was kind of like, yeah, but you're kind of being a baby about it, aren't you?

unknown 12:55

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

When it happens to you and you're like, ah, never mind. I was like, oh no, it's real bad. It's real painful. Sorry, Caleb. Um, but anyways, so that was that was for context.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Like every time I texted Ash for the past year, I was like, hey, how are you? She's like, I'm in the hospital.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Literally.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Almost every time. I was like, like, are you just like living there now?

SPEAKER_03 13:22

That's what it felt like. And to give you guys some context, I'm not a medical person. No, she's not a hypochondriac. I'm super not a hypochondriac. And I'd never even been to the hospital for myself until I have gave birth to my first child. Yeah. That was it. So this is.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

She barely took pain meds in college. Like she'd be like, I'm in so much pain, I'm gonna lay down differently. I'm like, oh, there's Advil. I don't know why you're doing that.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

You could literally just take some medication for that, some very normal standard medication. Almost no side effects. It's true, and I still I still just don't take that much medicine. I'm just not medically minded, so I also don't understand a lot of things that doctors say. So I usually like have to like run things past like my mom or my sister and be like, what did what does it mean when they said this to me? Do I need to ask more questions? Like, what should I do here? Yeah. So it's been super freaky. And then after having Cal, he was a C-section baby. Woo woo! My first one was not. C-sections are way easier.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

I was gonna say that's probably much better.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

So much better. Especially if you are prone to tearing, which that's why I got you guys are learning so much about me if you didn't already. Hi, welcome. If this is your first time here, welcome to a medical podcast disguised as a writing podcast. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, anyways, I tore very badly with my first one, which you all really needed to know. And my doctor was like, So, given that situation, I would like to offer you the option of a c-section. And I was like, hmm, I'll think about that. And then I felt guilty for a while thinking about it because I was like, I don't know. There's just it's some weird primal thing where you're like, surely my child will be best off if I give birth naturally, right? And then it's like what? Why? It makes literally no difference. So went with the C-section, it was awesome. Immediately got mastitis twice, as I did with my first child as well, so that's cool. Um, went septic, that was cool. Didn't know I was septic, was just like, I think I'm actually dying right now, and had to make my husband call the ambulance, which scared the hell out of him. They took I so I got to sit inside of an ambulance. That was interesting. I was like taking notes in case I need to write a scene if someone's in an ambulance.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

True writer.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Yeah, truly. I was like, this is valuable experience. I hope I don't die.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Um I hope I live to uh bring this to its fullest use.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Exactly. I'm like, I gotta find now I gotta fight I write a book that has a scene with an ambulance just so I can make this all worth it. Left Hobby at home with our two-year-old and newborn when they wheeled me off into the ambulance, and I was like, Well, he's gonna have an absolute panic attack. Um, anyways, so that was crazy. And they were like, turns out you're just mildly septic. And I was like, hmm. Mildly fascinating. You're just mildly dying, it's fine. Yeah, it's good, it's good. And it was funny too, because when the paramedics got here, they were like, I don't know, I think you're fine. I think you're just anxious. And I do know that that's probably true a lot of the time. And people usually, I'm sure people usually push back. And so I was trying not to be like, you don't know what you're talking about. But I was also like, I do have anxiety, and I've had panic attacks. So I'm like, I not like I I feel that I would recognize this as an aware person who actually does take medication for those things. So I was like, I mean, probably. And I said, Oh well, the problem is I can't breathe.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Um I guess that is kind of a panic attack thing, but yeah, also feel serious.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Also serious. I was like, I guess that would make me anxious. I literally was like, I'm I probably am anxious on account of Because I can't breathe. Yeah, feeling like I'm dying is making me feel anxious as well. You're correct. And then they were like, Oh, you're a little tachycardic. And I was like, what does that mean? Um yeah. Yeah. They were like, Your your heart rate is pretty high when you stand and it's jumping up pretty fast. And I was like, that's what I felt like, that's why I'm laying down. Correct. And they were like, Oh, so we should probably take you to the hospital. And I was like, That is why, that is why I That's why you're here. I asked my husband to call you guys. Yeah. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So uh, anyways, that was fun. Got home, my older son gave my younger son a cold, which I did not know he had given him, and because the baby was so little, it turned into viral meningitis. And I did not know, and I felt like a horrible mother because we were home for over 24 hours with his fever. Uh, and they were like, You should have brought him in immediately. And I was like, I did not know. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah, how do we I feel like most people give it 24 hours to 48 unless it's like really, really extreme.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

But yeah, exactly. And it wasn't particularly it's it's weird because there's like fevers aren't as bad for kids, but there's this period when they're babies where if they're ultra new, they don't have the blood brain barrier, so things like a normal cold can turn into meningitis. I did not know all of this. Um, anyway, so then we were in the pediatric ICU for a week. Um and that was that was terrifying. Luckily, he's fine. Um, the doctors were like, you wouldn't know he's on death's doorstep. He looks so great. And I'm like, that's horrifying, but thank you. Yeah, I'd like to be able to notice that. Yeah, and I was like, my children love to eat so much that even death will not keep them from eating. He gained weight while we were in there. Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, he needed the energy. Yeah, I mean, I'm super glad. They were like, it's amazing he's eating so well. And I'm like, yeah, every 45 minutes, which sounds like an exaggeration, but it's not. Um, and it's so funny because this one is um Riley is my long bird-boned boy. This boy is completely average of height, but he is so dense. He is a thick, muscly, chunky boy. And I called him Mr. Chunk once in front of Riley, and now Riley calls him Mr. Chunk. So nice.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Gotta be careful what nicknames you give him. Yeah, you got another kit. You didn't have that with Riley, really, where someone would pick up on that.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Exactly. I could just call him whatever. Yeah. And now it would fade.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

No, it won't.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Yeah. Yeah. So he's sorry, you're gonna be Mr. Chunk forever. But the good news is you're way stronger than him, so you're gonna be able to beat him up, like probably like in a few months.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

He's like, okay, whatever. Um, he's also way grumpier than Riley was as a baby. He sleeps way better, but he's like a very angry baby. Not fussy, just like he's just angry and grumpy, and his eyebrows usually just look grumpy. And he'll just he'll be nursing and just be like staring at me with the grumpiest face as he literally sucks the life out of me. And I'm like, I hate you. Exactly. I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry. Is my milk not good enough for you?

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Like isn't me caring for your every need not enough?

SPEAKER_03 20:21

Yeah, I'm like, sorry, bud. Life's not getting any easier than it is right now.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

This is the best it will ever be.

SPEAKER_03 20:27

So sorry, you're so discontent. Come on. Oh my goodness, so funny. Children are funny, and um Riley heard uh Javi say the phrase jack and around, and now he says jack and round. He goes, Deckin' wound, deck and wound. So that's pretty funny. Because I was like, we gotta go, y'all gotta stop jacking around. And he was like, deck and wound. Oh my gosh. Kids with their bad pronunciations, it's so cute, and he he had the R sound down because his name is Riley. So he was like, Riley, and now I don't know how we've lost the R and the L. But he had a Rolo yesterday, the candy, and he was like, Whoa whoa. I like woo woo. And I was like, I'm so glad you like rollos.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

And we have regressed. What's happening?

SPEAKER_03 21:16

It's so weird. I was like, Can you say red in Italian? We've been over this with him a lot. He knows that it's rosso, but he didn't even say rosso, he said who so. And I'm like okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

He's just messing with you.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah, I feel like he is. He is a little troll, major stinker. Anyway, so that's that's been my life update. Which is really like n it feels like nothing that significant. It's like a lot of dramatic things, but it didn't really. That's that's significant. Everything else was just like normal things were just gonna be dramatic about getting there.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Yeah. So you know, okay, your whole medical spiel reminded me of my medical spiel's.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

But saying you guys have actually had a very medical year.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yes. Well, okay, so working backwards, my parents and I all had like a medical thing go on early this year. So we had like medical January. So at the end of the month, my dad had to get like a skin cancer patch removed. My mom, what did my mom have? Was that a dental thing? Yes. It was some kind of very intense dental thing. She like couldn't eat like solid food for a while and stuff. She's getting her wisdom teeth out later this year now. So I know I'm confused about what's she has a lot of dental problems. And then I had to have my pacemaker replacement surgery. And the story behind that is that last May I had like my normal checkup and they were like, Cool, you look like you have like 16 months left. Everything's cool. It's like awesome. I'll think about this in a year. And then in July, they called me and were like, Hey, um, can you come in this week? I was like, like this week. I have an appointment next month. They're like, no, we need you in like as soon as possible. I was like, okay. So I went in and they're like, well, it looks like the the because the model I had, other people who had that model were noticing that as it got to the end of its battery life, it would very rapidly lose battery. And I'm dependent, so like I can't go down to zero. Like they usually don't let me go down like even to six months. And so they're like, Really, your range is two to thirty-two months. And I was like, hmm, that is an extraordinarily unhelpful range. Six, seven, six, seven. And and the yeah, and the the like system was just averaging it to 16. I was like, okay, they need to not do that because two to thirty-two months is very different.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Yeah, let's play on two months. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Let's air with that.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Yeah. Oh my god. I didn't know that. I knew you needed a replacement, but I didn't know that that was why.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

It was kind of terrifying. And so then I had to book my appointment with my surgeon, and he was really nonchalant. He's like, Okay, I'll see you in a month. I'm like, does that mean that you don't think it has two months you think it has more than two months? Or you're gonna like tell me the surgery needs to happen the day after I meet you? Like, I didn't know. So I went and saw him, and he was like, Okay, let's plan it for December or January. I was like, Okay, so you don't think it's two months. You think it's more than two months? He's like, Yeah, it's probably not the low end of the range, it's probably more middle, and then we'll just air with, you know, what was it at that point? Probably five months. So then I had to go in bed.

SPEAKER_03 24:28

Take it out now, replace it right now, today.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

He I I don't know if it's like an insurance thing or something, but like you do have to get to a certain battery amount before they'll replace it. Um, because when I was 18, that was the last time I had it done. I had the pacemaker tech like manipulate it so it would use battery power faster so that I could time it the way I wanted it to. But I don't know if it's because I'm an adult. They're usually pretty careful because I'm dependent. Like if it goes out, I am dead. But um, they're I don't know, it was just very strange. So then I scheduled it for January. It's January 7th, and I remember that because it's just seared in my brain. I don't know if I told you this part. I think I did, I'm not sure. So I went in for the surgery, and I get really nervous because like I've had surgery since I was two. I just like my worst fear is like I'll wake up in the middle, or like, you know, something will happen. So I go in for the surgery and they're taking me back to the OR, and they're asking me all these normal questions. They're like, Do you have any kidney problems? Are you pregnant? Like, all this kind of stuff. Like, no, everything's fine. They're like, Do you have any redheads in the family? I was like, What? I thought they were just kind of messing with me, like throwing in a silly question for fun. They're like, Well, redheads can react differently to anesthesia, so we like to know. So I was like, Oh well, yeah, my dad's dad was a redhead. So, like, my dad definitely has the gene, and there's about a 50-50 chance I have the gene.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

So I was like, okay, they told me this like right before they were gonna put me under. So they were like, okay, we'll keep an eye on you.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

You're like, well, that's my worst nightmare. Yeah. Thank you for that. They asked me that before my appendectomy. Because I was like, no, I'm I'm not a natural redhead, if that's why you're asking.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

And I'm not redheaded, but like I've been dying, you can't really see it in this lighting, but I've kind of been dying my hair a little, like bleaching it a little more. You can see it's more of a strawberry blonde. So I'm like, I think I'm probably like I'm carrying the gene, but it's not like demonstrating. Well, long story short, I did wake up in the middle of surgery and I could feel them operating on me. It was horrible. I literally like they put me under, and then I kind of like was dazed and I was like, why do I feel like something's tugging at me? I'm like, that's weird. And then like the awareness just came over me because it's like it's really painful. So I was like, um, I feel like I'm still being operated on, but like anesthesia paralyzes you, so I couldn't move. Yeah, so I couldn't tell anyone I was awake. And I tried, like, I was trying to talk. I was like, like, hello, like something, like, are you guys watching me? And um, they like didn't notice for a really long time. So I don't know what the time frame is because it's hard to tell when you're that like I couldn't open my eyes. I don't know what the time frame was, but I literally just sat there and laid there, I guess, and was like, I'm just gonna have to find a way to get through it. Like I was praying, I was like, please, I don't know how to do this. This is horrible. And then I basically was in so much pain, I started to cry, and they noticed me crying. They could see the tears dripping out of my eyes, so they knew I was awake.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

And they put me back under. So apparently, this is what I think happened. They felt really bad too. Like, I was it was supposed to be a 20-minute surgery with a one-hour recovery. Turned into like a 40-minute surgery with like a three-hour recovery because they had to give me like I don't know what the dose was, but it was probably close to double. So it took me a really long time to wake up and they felt so bad. And my parents were just like, it's fine. Like, I wasn't awake to say anything because like they can't really do anything, it's you know, whatever. But um, yeah, so I was like, I guess I definitely have the redhead gene. Yeah, and um, now I know that for for the future, but it was deeply horrifying.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Yeah, it was kind of a redheaded baby at some point.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

I know I did think about that, but anyway, I think the reason it happened is apparently when you put a pacemaker in, they have like a little antibacterial, anti-anti-something little sack that it's put in so your body doesn't reject it as a foreign object. It's supposed to dissolve. And apparently the one I got when I was 18, which was 12 years ago, did not dissolve. So it had embedded in the muscle, and that's I think that's what they were doing when I woke up. I don't think they were planning for it to like last that long or for it to be that painful because I had to like tug it out of the muscle and everything. So I think that's why I woke up. I don't know if it would actually be that bad under normal circumstances, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

This is so horrifying. I can't really lead with all of my medical experience. I forgot about it.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

I try not to think about it, so I kind of forgot. Um, but then even before that, so back it was after I visited you. So I don't think I've we've done a podcast since then, but I vi I visited Ash in May of 24, 25.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

I would say 20. Was it 24?

SPEAKER_02 29:16

I think so. It wasn't last year. Wait, no, it was last year. Because my cousin's wedding was 24. I think it was 25. It was the first writing retreat, whenever that was.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Uh yes, okay. Yeah. So 25, yes. I completely forgot about the retreat.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

So yes, I visited Ash, and then it was my first time flying by myself. I flew when I was 12 once. And then I flew by myself, and I was very proud of myself for that because I was really anxious. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

I was also very proud of you.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

I know. It was so much fun, but I got the flu afterwards. I think because, like, you know, you're very suddenly in a different city and like you're on the plane and everything. So I had the flu and I recovered from the flu. I had laryngitis for a while, so I didn't have to talk to anyone, which was kind of cool. And then I thought I was relapsing. So I usually take like a ton of vitamin C to just like you know push through illnesses or like you know, nip them in the bud. But all I had was vitamin C plus zinc, so I took a bunch of those, and I did not know that you can get something called zinc poisoning, and it can kill you. So I I to I looked at, I don't remember what the exact numbers are, but there's some kind of dose that is like it starts the lethal range. I took like 10 less, and I was in so much pain. Like, I actually think it was worse than the surgery. Like, I felt like basically there were live coals inside of me slowly burning out through the rest of my body. It was so horrible. And I felt so dumb because I had done it. It was like my own fault. It wasn't even like, you know, something that happened to me. I know. Apparently that I know, and I started to tell people afterwards, I was like, yeah, I had zinc poison. They're like, what? You took that much zinc? And like, why did no one tell me this? Why did no one inform me that this was a serious issue?

SPEAKER_03 31:03

No that you can't take that much zinc?

SPEAKER_02 31:05

I know, I didn't know. So I it was kind of weird, like it it kicked in in like 15 minutes. So I was eating something because you're supposed to take zinc not on an empty and not on an empty stomach. So I I was eating, but then I got so sick to my stomach, I was like, okay, I'll lay down. I had a headache, and I started to feel really bad, and I was like, I'm gonna look this up. Maybe there's something to this. And I saw that you could die of it, and I was like, I feel like I'm dying. I went to the bathroom to try to throw up, couldn't get anything up, but I also like collapsed to the ground and just stayed there for like hours. And I had this instinct. No, well, I I don't know. I'm I'm sort of like you, but the opposite of you were like, I don't want to go to the hospital. So like I only go when I absolutely have to. So I was literally like, I think I can handle this, everything will be fine, I'll just like get through it. And the internet told me it should last five to ten hours. So I was like, let's just pull for five hours and hope that we get through it that fast. But I was like crazy, I was like, maybe I should drink milk or something. I did a bunch of research after the fact that would have in fact helped, but I didn't do it because I couldn't get off the ground. And the advice like poison control advice, they're like, you should call poison control and you should take something to throw it up. But I was like, I just didn't know that, so I just laid there in like really, really extreme pain. And I've never been through childbirth, I don't know how it ranks, but I think it's up there. And it was horrible.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Why didn't you call someone?

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Well, okay, my parents were there, but I think they just thought I was being a baby. Like I think they were just like, okay, you'll be fine, because I'd had I just had the flu. So I think they were like, oh, she's still recovering. And my mom was worried. Like, she was like, you know, do you want me to take you somewhere? And I was like, no, I think I'm fine. But then, you know, she'd leave me alone for an hour, and I'm like, I'm going through all sorts of like I was considering like appealing to like spiritual thing, like, I don't know. It was very cra I was like, maybe I should appeal to a demon. And I was like, no, we can't do that. That's wrong.

unknown 33:07

Yeah, maybe not that.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

But yeah, we'll not do that. But it almost felt a little bit like a test.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Consider that then going to the hospital.

unknown 33:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

They would have given you a glass of milk. I couldn't speak. But okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

I don't know. It was terrible. But anyway.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

That's awful.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

So now I have waking up during surgery, zinc poisoning, and then when I was 12, I had pneumonia. Those are the worst pain I've ever been in. So now I have a ranking system. So my god. Yeah, I mean, I don't go to the hospital as often as Ash, but oh boy, when when I get sick or unwell, it is extreme.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

I wonder, it sounds like the level of pain that you're describing with the zinc poisoning sounds a lot like the appendicitis, which felt a lot like childbirth.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

It was it was pr it's probably similar because it's I mean it's it's not the same organ, but it's in kind of like the same region where it can feel like it's spreading to other places. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean appendicitis is basically like it's it's not exactly like this, but it's kind of like an organ is rotting inside of you. That's exactly what it is. Yeah, so that would be painful. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Yeah. My mom for that one too. I did just call my mom and I was like, maybe take me to urgent care because I my my stomach hurt so bad. Because at first I didn't know it was appendicitis. Yeah. Well, at first I was like, I just need you to come over and take me to the doctor. I don't know what's going on. And she was like, and I didn't well, first she called and she was like, Are you okay? Because I didn't sound good. And I was like, uh, no, I've been awake since 2 a.m. because my stomach hurts. And she was like, That's not normal. Should you go to the doctor? And I was like, no. And then like an hour later, she was like, I'm gonna call you back and see how you're doing. And an hour later, I was on the ground because my stomach hurt so bad and I couldn't get up. And I was like, Yeah, you might need to help.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

I actually might need help, yes.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

And then but then because I was like 16 weeks pregnant, 16 or 17 weeks pregnant, I was like, actually, we're gonna have to go to the ER and they're gonna send me to get the maternity ward because they won't work on you in the ER when you're pregnant. And that's that's probably why they were like they thought it was a pregnancy thing. Yeah, exactly. And as soon as the pain started to like move towards my side, I was like, I don't think that's the baby. Pretty sure it's appendicitis. Yeah. And then I Javi and I are both so helpless with medical things. My I called my sister to come in, and within 15 minutes of her being there, I had fentanyl. Thank God, because I was dying. So I don't know what she said. And she got a doctor to come in who was actually the doctor who coincidentally had delivered Riley. Uh and she's she's so scary. She's terrifying. I know she's great, she's the scariest person. And so she like immediately was like, get this girl some fentanyl. Her appendix is, you know, blah blah blah. And I was like, thank you. You're amazing. Uh except that I couldn't say that because I was like, I can't move, I'm in so much pain. Yeah. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

You're just glad you don't have to fight for it because you're like, I'm not in a condition to do that.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

And then they they finally wheeled me down to do the scan, and they were like, Whoa, that's a very inflamed appendix. And I was like, Well, I've only been telling you. At that point, I think I had been in the hospital for like eight hours. So I'm like, it was probably less inflamed eight hours ago. Right. But uh, yeah, no, of course it's getting worse. And they were like, also, we waited so long that the surgeon has already gone home, and we did give you saltine crackers, so you have to wait eight hours eight more hours before we can take out your appendix, and also the surgeon's not here. So I was like, So because you guys didn't listen to me, I have to be in this level of pain for at least eight more hours.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

This seems like your fault. You should have to make up for this somehow.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

I was like, I was telling you this whole time. I knew it was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

I was like, this is crazy. Anyways, um so it's been it's just been medical stuff, that's all. We've just had a new medical time, you and I.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

We are alive, which is an achievement.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

So this is good, honestly. So now we don't even have to be like, sorry, we disappeared with no warning, you guys. I feel that we've had some very valid.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

We were actually dying.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

Actually dying. Yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

So yeah. Um I don't know what the takeaway is. Don't take zinc. Tell the doctors you need your appendix out before the surgeon leaves.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

I don't know how you prevent the stuff that happened to you.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Yeah, mine's not. You just got unlucky. I do, I've always been very unlucky.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Uh let your surgeons know if you have a redhead in the family. Yeah, absolutely. Although something I didn't know.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Yeah. Sorry if you guys can hear my child angry snorting into the microphone. My baby's an angry snorter. I am an angry snorter, you guys. Oh my goodness. Well, today we were gonna talk about dialogue because if you guys did not know, I own a bookstore in Hotto, Texas, and it's awesome. And it's called the Story Emporium and Bookshop, and once a month we do a writing workshop, and it's this weekend, and uh, we're gonna talk about dialogue. So I was like, we could we could just do that here, which we've done before, but it is one of my favorite topics. And I've done minimal preparation because that is my tradition. That is my scripture society model, it's our business model. Ash does very little preparation and leans on Catherine, who was like, I have some notes here. I had a sticky note of notes. She's got a sticky note of notes. It's amazing. Amazing. Anyways, so we're gonna talk dialogue. Um, if you guys are still here, if you're gonna believe during our they're like, we know so much about y'all's medical history.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

I think you can learn a lot. You can write these conditions better now. I I will say, I'm almost definitely gonna write some kind of a book where someone gets poisoned by zinc, and that's like the murder weapon. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Ooh, that's smart. You learn. I just read, um, I just finished an audiobook this morning, last night. I've been listening to a crazy amount of audiobooks, that um somebody died of iron poisoning, and that was crazy. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

I mean, not the death. Well, I kind of love the death, but the fictional death. Not the real people death.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

Yeah, but I'm gonna use my ambulance experience to inform my book. Um, a lot of my pregnancy experience um a lot of like the postpartum like depression and stuff. I'm definitely gonna weave it in into my book right now.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

So yeah, the book you have, I don't know if you started reading it, but the one that I sent you, I did sort of infuse a little bit of the the like waking up and surgery stuff into that series. So that's exciting. Oh my gosh, so scary. I can't wait to read it. It's not as intense as I made that sound. It's more just like I feel like my descriptions are really solid when it comes to like yeah, like paralysis. Like I understand it now.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

It's crazy. I did have oh, I cannot, I cannot relate to the pain because I did not experience pain. Uh I learned when they do a C-section, they don't um they numb you to the pain, but you can't move and you can still completely feel sensation. So that was freaky. Because it was it feels like you're being tugged really hard when they're like cutting through you. And then when they tried to pull the baby, I don't know how they pulled the baby out. I felt like they tried to shove the baby up my throat first and I couldn't breathe, and then pulled the baby out. And then the baby sneezed immediately, which was crazy. It was like your first breath and you sneezed. Welcome to the buddy. He's like, I'm allergic to reality. So that was funny. Um, but yeah, that was freaky. They were like, You're gonna be able to feel everything, but it just won't hurt. That's crazy. It didn't hurt. I did not like it, it was freaky.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Obviously, I'm glad that I didn't have the pain, but oh my god, that was that is it's weird when stuff is supposed to hurt and it doesn't, but you can still feel it in some way. Yeah, that's weird.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

That's so freaky. That's so freaky. Crazy. Anyways, I'm I'm sorry, I'm going back to medical things. I'm scarred, I'm still processing.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

This is just a therapy session. This is a medical therapy session because a writing podcast.

SPEAKER_03 41:17

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, dialogue, which we have been treating you guys to copious amounts of. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Welcome. Um, all right, so like, do you want to start like with a certain idea or topic? Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

What do you have on your notes? Do you have anything that you want to start with? I've got a bunch of random ideas that aren't very well connected.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Okay, cool. Um I mean, mine are just kind of like general uh not hints, not clues. What's the word? Tips, general tips.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

General tips and tricks. I have pet peeves because I like to be negative.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Okay, a lot of them are kind of pet peeves.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

That's also this is really just a writer's pet peeves um podcast. I do feel like a lot of our episodes end up that way. Well, I guess we could really quickly describe what dialogue is in case someone's like, what wait, which what is the dialogue? That took me a minute for some reason when I was like in middle school to understand dialogue. Interesting. It's what's in quotation marks, it's speech.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Yep. You can do like indirect dialogue, which is where you write something like so-and-so told them what had happened. Like, if you have like all these events that happen in the first half of the book and then a new character comes in and they need to be brought up to speed, you don't have to like actually explain it. I did this when I first started writing, where I was like, I'm just gonna rehash everything in dialogue. That'll be fun. Everyone wants to just like recap in the middle of the book. And uh you don't have to do that. You could just be like, you know, internal dialogue, yeah. So and so call her up and explained what had happened or told them about the thing that went down or whatever. And you can do it in small ways too, where it's like in the middle of a conversation, you can say like someone disagreed or someone, you know, yeah uh uh started yelling or something, if it's not like super important what the exact words are. Um, which I do think would be a fun way for people to mix it up because sometimes dialogue can get uh like bunched up if you have like way too much dialogue in a row, especially if it's only two characters talking. Yeah, I think that's one of my pet peeves. Yeah, so you can break it up with indirect dialogue, but you can also break it up with like actions. So, like, you know, in quotation marks, so-and-so said, as they walked to the other side of the room or something like that. Yep. Because it you don't I think it's called um White Room Syndrome, which is uh where you basically start talking about what characters are saying and and whatever, but there's no context of like the setting. Like people don't know where to set this conversation. Like, is it outside? Is it in a room? Is the room blue? Is you know how many people are in the room? So you want to give good descriptions, but you can also like inter interspersed them through the dialogue. So like you don't have to info dump. Here are the exact, you know, specifications of the room. You could say, you know, start with the dialogue and then say, you know, she walked to the the rounded corner of the room or where there was a couch or um you know a lot of my characters tend to pace angrily so that I use that a lot for like settings.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Characters do pace angrily.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Yeah. I don't know why. I don't really pace angrily so I don't know why. I can I think it just gives me like you kind of use the whole space of the fictional setting. You know what I mean? So that's true that's something I do.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Yeah I definitely use action. So there's there's dialogue indirect dialogue and then there's internal dialogue which is like the character's thoughts in italics which I love and I use a lot of that and also a lot of action. And you can use like even if you're like but they're not really doing anything they're just like sitting talking. It can even just be like some action that like gives the reader more information about the dialogue. Like maybe a character says something and they're while they're talking they're nervously picking the wrapper off of a water bottle. So that tells you more about likely not only how the character is feeling but possibly how they sound while they're speaking about whatever it is that's making them nervous. So the action should support the dialogue and tell you something new about the dialogue and also helps to build the setting. So all those things.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Yeah. And I think the one of the rules I sort of follow is like if someone is saying so like you could describe their action as like they're smiling while they say it, right? But you don't necessarily need to do that if it's obvious that they're smiling. Like if it's a good interaction that's going down you you know maybe it's like a I don't know romantic scene or like a reun uh reuniting with a family member that they've been excited to see and it's going well. You don't have to say they're smiling because that's obvious. But if there's something like vaguely threatening going on or it's not obvious that there's they would be smiling saying that can add depth to the dialogue because it gives you some context for oh there's some tension here or maybe they're lying or um you know any of that kind of stuff. It can be fun to like look up signs of lying and then build it into the descriptions because you can kind of subtly hint that that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

Yes, exactly. I love it. Ruby um get off the bed please thank you. Sorry if you guys are watching the video you saw that my dog launch herself onto the bed um which she knows she's not allowed on but um this this too with um smiled is one of them and then another one of my pet peeves is laughed. Yeah which is it seems like it should be something that you have to write because it's not just an expression and it's a sound. But like if something's funny enough that the reader's amused you don't usually need to write the it's like you're overcompensating. Don't overcompensate yeah it feels it's a lot like an exclamation point. We want to use those very very sparingly otherwise it feels like that's too much which is another dialogue tip. Like limit the exclamations I actually think that if you want to express that someone's like yelling or shouting rather than exclamation points maybe capitalize do all caps for a word or italics either of those are better than an exclamation point most of the time for it but he yelled would be better or he shouted yes exactly is better than the exclamation point. Not that there isn't occasionally a use for it and there might be occasionally a time where you say like he or she smiled or he or she laughed but mostly mostly I would say don't don't it's almost never necessary and whenever I'm editing a manuscript and it it's got a lot of he laughed she laughed they laughed I'm like delete delete delete delete delete delete delete yeah I do think that I do tend to do that especially on like first draft because you're like you're trying to picture it in your head.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

You're like oh they're smiling but then a lot of times during editing process you you can just take it out you're like eh they're pleasantly happy it's pretty clear that they're probably smiling.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

They probably don't look miserable while they're having this pleasant conversation.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Exactly yeah yeah in um so one of my books uh there's basically someone pulls kind of a cruel prank on everyone and most of the people are upset but one of the characters thinks it's funny so he laughs and that I feel like is a good use of it because he's different than all of something about that character. Exactly he's like he's gonna find things funnier rather than take them too seriously etc but if everyone thought it was funny I mean I guess you could say they were laughing but you don't need to overdo it it can just be a statement here or there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

I feel like that's true of a lot of things is like if it doesn't tell you something new about a character or characters then you don't need to include it.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Even if it's just like a temporary state of being like if they're anxious right now it doesn't have to be like they're always anxious um as a character hint but like if they're anxious right now especially if it's strange for them to be anxious or if they're more anxious than everyone else um yeah yeah like if you can't tell immediately from the dialogue like if it's a neutral line of dialogue like she like someone's like hey I haven't seen you in a while that could be said in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

It'd be like hey I haven't seen you in a while it could be like hey I haven't seen you in a while you're like there's a lot of different ways that you that you can say that. So in that in that case you might add something about she said anxiously or which is probably not what I would do but you could do it would be applicable. I would probably do some sort of action that you would only do if you were anxious. Right. But that would be appropriate to anyways that would be an appropriate time to add more information.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Yeah. And I think it's about mixing it up too like you don't want to have some kind of dialogue tag attached to every piece of dialogue but you also don't want it to be only dialogue where again White Room syndrome starts to kick in where no one knows where anyone's standing or how anyone feels you want to make it clear but not overdo it. Which I think is a practice makes perfect thing. You kind of just got to test it.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

That's exactly what I was gonna say it's definitely practice makes perfect it's d I think it's because there's not a specific a lot of things can be somewhat formulaic I feel like this is maybe the least formulaic part of writing fiction is when it comes to the dialogue and the balance of speech tags or action the internal dialogue the external dialogue the describing the setting like it's you want and balance you want a mix of all of them but the mix can be different ratios given the scene given the writer given the voice given the story so it can be it can all be really really different. But I do think that maybe this is the most valuable reason to hire a copy editor when you're a fiction writer. I mean they will definitely help smooth out the pros like the narration and that's fantastic and super helpful. But maybe at least for me when I'm copy editing I always find that I have the most edits to make for flow in the portions that where there's a lot of dialogue. Like that's where I'm like we're doing the most work with the red pen here. Not because it's di the bad the dialogue is bad. It's almost always either tweaking just a word or two here in dialogue but it's usually just including more action or a speech tag or just changing it up so that it's not all speech tags or it's not all action or it's most like usually it's not line after line after line of dialogue and then a paragraph of action. Because that's just not well and I think people flow naturally.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Yeah. I think people tend to go with their strength right so you might think like oh I have really good dialogue so I don't need the action or I'm really creative with word choice with the the taglines or anything so I don't need to have you know excessive dialogue. It's like okay but you need to get a good variety going. And I do think like you can be heavier in one or the other like I tend to be kind of heavy on internal dialogue and like that's okay. But you can't only yeah you just can't have only internal dialogue where like no one's ever talking to each other or um only people definitely do lean into their strengths which is good but you you can't forego right all the other parts. You gotta just put extra effort into the stuff it doesn't come as naturally but yeah. Um speaking of slang which we did earlier I I really get annoyed this is a pet peeve of mine when there's too much slang in dialogue and like fillers as well so like the word um or uh yes like what I'm doing right now or like or something. It's you don't have to make your characters talk exactly the way that people speak. And movies do this too. Sometimes movie movies can have like more filler and everything because it's supposed to come a little more naturally but um you edit out a lot of the filler and the hedging and even a lot of the slang because slang uh dates it because like we were talking about with Gen Z like it just it changes and now something that was really popular when you wrote it is outdated by the time it gets published or a couple years later. And filler bumps your word count in a way you don't need which is really irritating when you're trying to cut word count and it gives you it makes you seem like you don't know what you're doing. Like you're unsure of what the characters are saying or doing characters need to be a little more confident I think even if they're insecure um maybe if you have one character who's very you know tentative very kind of you know like wants to be in the background maybe they use that kind of stuff as like a character quirk but in general characters shouldn't be doing that because you can edit that out care readers are kind of adding that in their own imagination. So if if it's being added on the reader side you don't need to include it in the the text I think.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

And things like um uh like stammering like doing like the I I I before you say a sentence or whatever is all of that is only in there to denote discomfort typically of some kind which I think is almost always better expressed by action or by a speech tag.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

So if you include the action you can just say he stammered or she stammered instead of writing out the uh um or that they stammered like with the in the actual word but then your readers will picture it you don't have to write um or uh it doesn't read well because also um and uh yeah it feels stilted and there's actually like so many different sounds that people make when they're hedging we write um and uh but I think the part of the reason it does not feel authentic to read most of the time is that there's all kinds of sounds that are not just um and uh and phonetically um and u h are just not they're not gonna grasp it all right they don't flow very well hedges the same way they don't flow well yeah it feels it feels very false it feels yeah well I think about like when I'm listen I I don't really like um captions when I'm watching something but occasionally they're there when the caption is wrong or it it like someone says uh or um or like one of the many different sounds you can make it always turns it into um or uh or something like that and I'm like watching the video I'm like that's not what they said though like that's not the sound they made so it's and it's hard to like get those sounds down and I don't think you need to necessarily try to do that. Um I think maybe if you're going for emphasis, right? Like if a very confident character is now suddenly stammering maybe you do put that in the dialogue to really emphasize that they're uncomfortable or if you're trying to be really subtle about it and you don't want to say that they're uncomfortable or if you're you know the point of view character is not going to notice is not going to like make connections or whatever like maybe first person it's a little more useful because maybe the point of view character just doesn't notice that people are uncomfortable but they hear the stammer. There are yeah reasons you could do it but definitely I think people are heavy with it. Because again when I first started writing I was really heavy with the the in-dialogue stammering it's like everyone's stammering all the time there are ellipsies everywhere. You know everyone's stutter yeah everyone's pausing all the time and that is how normal people talk. I mean like if we had a transcript for this podcast clearly I would I would be stammering I would be yeah um like that but it it doesn't necessarily need to be a transcript in the book it just needs to be clear and and propel the plot and illustrate the characters and all that kind of stuff. So it's it I think it can feel unnatural if you're just starting because you're thinking that people talk like this but it needs to just it needs to be about the plot and the characters not necessarily about making it feel like a closed caption.

SPEAKER_03 56:44

Yeah I agree. I think also when you're writing you typically when you write something like uh or um you're writing it with the intention to like express that a character is feeling nervous or uncertain or shy or whatever. And so it's already intentional and when you when you're just speaking in real life and you say uh or um it's never intentional and it just happens. So it already feels kind of weird because we all know that it's been there intentionally and then the other part is it's I I always almost see it at the I almost always see it at the beginning of the sentence uh or um and that's not that's just not typically where it lands. Usually that's in the middle of a sentence like you start a sentence and you lose your train of thought you're like you're talking too fast or too slow and you need a bit to fill the space. Yeah yeah exactly so it's not it there it's a filler it's not usually something that you start out with it makes it like like gosh like when makes it more you sound more uncertain by like a thousand percent which most people are not so that's another one where like there might be a use case for it but mostly there isn't.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

It's I think we've said this many times before the I think one of the keys to being a good writer is knowing the rules so that you know when to break them. So it's not that there's never a time for it. It's that you need to know that that's generally not what you're trying to do so that when it is necessary you can tell um but yeah yeah totally agree.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

I love that that really is our catchphrase know the rules so that you know when to break them.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Yeah it it gets it captures both of our personalities because I'm a rule follower and you're a rule breaker. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 58:22

Unless they're playing DD.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

That's true.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

And you are absolutely a rule breaker. I know I I still tell people all the time about playing DD with you. I'm like yeah they were trying to give us something for free and she was like I'm gonna steal it anyway. And I'm like you're gonna you're gonna cause a big problem if we look if I roll a 20 it won't be a problem I love it.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

So funny Okay let's see um okay so I think I think we talked about this before but how do you feel about verbs other than said give me an example I mean so like like he yelled or he replied or he murmured chuckled that kind of thing muttered um I do like them.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

I think if every speech tag is a word other than said it feels unnatural like you're trying too hard. He said she said they said is kind of something that for the most part I feel like your eyes sort of skip over as a reader which is good because sometimes it's the least important part. So only if there's a reason that the reader needs to know that something was muttered or shouted should you include he muttered or she shouted as the speech tag. If it doesn't really matter how the words were said you can use a speech you can just use he said she said or if you've included action that denotes the way that they said it then you also don't need to include he said or she said. And my most favorite thing sometimes you don't need a speech tag at all if it's just clear who's speaking you don't actually have to be like David said he said you know Charlotte said like you can just simply Charlotte cross the room hey what's up David you're like yeah that's definitely not David talking to himself.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

Yeah. I think a lot of times like even the said or even the you know walked across the room or whatever a lot of time it's just the name that's attached to it that readers like key in on like they're just looking for who's saying it. And so when you have like you know so and so said they're like like you said they the word said is there and they're reading it but it they're kind of forgetting at the moment it's gone because they just know who's speaking now. So if it's not important I think especially when it comes to like back and forth like arguing between two people the the least amount of action and the least amount of of dialogue tags is the best because you know who's speaking and people can keep track of it and it makes things go faster.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:55

Like it takes it makes it takes less scene more realistic. Yes. Because the pace of an argument that's also a really good point. Like if characters are arguing or they're excited there should be a lot less action or speech tags in the separate words. Yeah because it's happening faster. So the dialogue should you should be reading it faster there should be less in between it. If it's a slower conversation or a difficult conversation then there should be a lot more action and a lot more description about the setting. Right. And you can use more more speech tags and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

Yeah. And I think if there's three or more you need to maybe be denoting who's talking but again said is going to be good because it's it's ba you're basically blind to it but you now know who's speaking.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

So unless you're doing something like everyone is exclaiming like if you have a group of characters and they're all reacting to something with sort of just like exclamations this is one where that's just like a very unique situation but it does come up a lot. And that's where you don't necessarily have to be like he gasped she said wow you know like they can just be like wow oh my gosh did you see that it doesn't matter who's saying it because everyone's equally surprised. We're all flabbergasted so yeah everyone is in shock.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

I do like those because again it moves things really quickly it's very fast paced and it's oh yeah it does give like having maybe three or four just um quick succession exclamations of surprise without any names attached to them sometimes does a better job of indicating like the shock or the surprise than having it say she was surprised or they jumped or anything else like that because it's just exactly it's quickly moving it's um especially because you feel like as a reader you're you're um getting through a lot of paragraphs at once and so it feels like even though the sentence they screamed in surprise is objectively shorter it's it feels longer because it's like a longer paragraph or fewer paragraphs to work with.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:50

Yeah exactly same for like action scenes or like battles if you want if you want the pacing in an action scene or in a battle to be swift which you I would say sometimes with like a battle scene maybe you slow it down here and there but for the most part I think with battles and action you want it to feel fast and that's what makes it feel more realistic to people.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

And that's another one where you can you just want to move if there's dialogue you want to move from the dialogue to dialogue to dialogue swiftly I would say actually too with the action you want to move from action to action you know like swords clanged blood ran you know yeah not like the flowery you know several ideas in the same sentence like for me I I you always use the semicolons but I don't use semicolons in battle sequences because you want the sentences to feel like they're their own thing and happening fast not like it's all one thought.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

So I love a run-on sentence with a bunch of M-dashes in there. M-dashes are not for AI.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

I hate that everyone thinks that now it's making me sick I always feel like defending you when people say it they're like it uses so many M-dashes I'm like you know who else uses M-dashes? Ash and other creative writers.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:00

Yeah so how dare you you know who else uses too many M dashes it's me. Yeah it's super me. But I love a run on sentence with a bunch of M-dashes but that's not useful for battles or action for ha for fast-paced things. You just want short sentences.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:14

Um yeah so yeah if like there's you know so to speak a verbal battle going on the the lack of dialogue tag can often be useful. Oh yeah. So yep yeah all right this is my biggest pet peeve and I've noticed it a lot lately in books I've been reading which it's not necessarily incorrect. I just want to like give a PSA that this annoys me and I want people to stop. Um it's um so like when you're writing dialogue for a character the general idea is that um you change the paragraph you make a new paragraph when a new character starts speaking right that's I think that everyone maybe you don't know that but it's kind of a general rule. You change paragraph when a new character starts to speak. But I really really hate it when two paragraphs like in succession like next to each other are the same character talking. I don't understand why people do this. They do like you know like the initial statement and then an action and then the next paragraph is the same character talking and I feel like this is really confusing. It's so confusing it's a new paragraph why we change paragraphs I don't know who's talking now. So I don't like this at all and I don't know why it's happen I don't know if it's a mistake or if I just am uniquely paying attention to it.

unknown 1:05:25

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:26

Yeah no it's got to me it feels like a mistake. To me it doesn't really feel like a choice because it it does nothing. It's not even like where it does something unintentional that is not really what you want for the scene. It it actually does nothing but be kind of visually jarring.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:44

And make it hard to know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

And you can do I've done this occasionally like if a character's giving a really long speech or maybe they're telling a long story, you can um you basically don't end the quotation at the end of the paragraph and you go to the next one and you start with a quotation and you keep them going. That's fine because you're You basically they're now speaking in multiple paragraphs, which is fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

But it's when the quotation has ended, and then the next paragraph is like an action, or it the previous paragraph ended with an action and now it's the quotes again. And like that doesn't make any sense. Or if it's only like two sentences, like just combine them into the same paragraph. This isn't a a monologue.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:19

Exactly. If it's like a sentence and then it's like a couple paragraphs of action and then the person speaks again, obviously then you probably drop it to the next line. But yeah, if it's like a sentence and then like a line or two of action and then the characters continue speaking, they're continuing to speak. It doesn't need a new line. That's confusing. I'm gonna assume that someone else, I'm gonna assume there's a ghost talking now. I know. Like, who's this? Where'd they come from?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

I know. Why, why? I don't like it. It genuinely confuses me. So I've been kind of a stickler for that when I'm looking through my books now. I'm like, I've accidentally done it a few times, but I'm like, this is clearly a mistake. Like I need to change it. Not this was on purpose.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:01

Yeah. So you're like, I was doing something artistic here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:04

No, I was it was definitely an error, but yeah. Um those I think are all my points. Those are mostly pet peeves. Were they mostly pet peeves?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:14

We really do function in pet peeves. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah, mine are all. I think mine are probably also all pet peeves. Yeah. I do love dialogue. I mean, I feel like the last time that we did an episode where we talked about dialogue. So if you guys were like, this episode is full of nonsense and in and not applicable to me, we do have another episode on dialogue, at least one uh somewhere in our two. Yeah. And I remember saying something like, if you can't picture someone you know saying a sentence, then don't write the sentence that way. And I remember when I said that I thought that that was really clear advice. And now I'm like, that doesn't really feel very clear. Because probably if somebody is struggling to write dialogue, that feels like someone who probably has a hard time imagining.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

You're telling them what not to do, not what to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

Yeah, exactly. So that's uh if you struggle with dialogue, um, just as if you struggle with like the narrate the narration part, then um hire a copy editor.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:16

That's it. I also think I mean, yes, they're invaluable. They definitely are good, but I also think you could just like watch the closed captions on a video where people are talking a lot. Like, not where like someone's talking into a camera, but just like a scene from a movie or a TV show or whatever. Look at the closed captions because I know you think, well, I'm watching it, I'm getting the dialogue, but sometimes seeing it on the screen can be really helpful. Yeah, like seeing something written is different than hearing it said, and you can see like, does that sound or does that feel awkward when I read it, as opposed to when I hear it? And you just have to understand the medium, like it's writing. It's allowed to sound awkward if it were, you know, perfectly spoken out loud, but it needs to feel right on the page, so you have to kind of bridge that gap. So, like if you're a TV buff or whatever, you maybe you watch YouTube or I watch a lot of police chases and police encounters, those are fun. So sometimes you put like the closed captions on, you can see the the dialogue going back and forth, and reading it, I think, can help.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:16

I agree. Reading dialogue makes a big difference. That's also another that would be like on that line. Another tip would be um read more books with more dialogue. Not every author uses a ton of dialogue, but you could just Google authors who use a lot of dialogue and then or authors with great dialogue and then read them. And I would say I've been really into audiobooks lately, but to Catherine's point, the seeing it written out will probably make a really big difference if your goal is to improve your dialogue, which is kind of like an always tip if you're struggling with something when you're writing. Like go read a bunch of stuff, like go read someone who's really good at that thing. And the more you read, the more you absorb it, and the more you sort of absorb the approach, if that makes sense. Um so yeah, that's yeah, I totally agree. But I would say audiobooks are not gonna be helpful. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:10

I you know, I Audible got me a couple months ago. I now have an Audible subscription, and I'm really not an audiobook person, but I listen to it in the car now because now I have a car that will connect to my phone and allow me to read in the car essentially. But um I'm I'm not a huge audiobook fan, but like audiobooks are fine, but you do also have to physically read.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:31

It's kind of like it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:33

Watching the I oh sorry. Oh, well, I was gonna say, like, watching someone swimming is not gonna make you good at the backstroke. You know what I mean? Like you have to actually get in the pool and do it. There's nothing wrong with watching people swimming. It's okay if you enjoy watching that, but yeah, like you have to actually do it. So, like writing is sort of like that. Like, nothing wrong with doing audiobooks, but like at some point you have to actually be looking at the physical copy so that you can learn the skill set.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:00

Yeah, yeah. And audiobooks might be good if you're like for learning purposes, if you're listening to audiobooks, you might be learning things about like structure, story pacing, character development, like the more big picture developmental stuff. But for the actual on-the-page writing, yeah, you probably want to be reading the written word. That's just it's gonna be you're gonna it's gonna be hard to get anything out of it otherwise. Um I have found that because I listen to audiobooks like crazy, which by the way, if anyone's looking for a way to support my independent bookstore or any of your local independent bookstores, um, LibreOffm is an audiobook provider that you can now sign up um through a bookstore. Um so not every bookstore has it, but we do. So if you ever get tired of Audible and you want to switch over to our LibreOFM, it's cool because then we get the money sort of Amazon. Not that I'm anti-Amazon, it's very useful for things. But um yeah, anyways, so I work on the because uh support your local bookstore, please. We're dying. Um the um god, I'm so good at distracting myself when I think I'm so funny. I did it too. Oh my goodness. Uh so as a bookseller, I get um free access to a bunch of advanced listening copies or ALCs on um yeah, on LibreFM, and it's fantastic. So I've been listening to audiobooks like crazy, but I have found that for things like fantasy, I cannot listen to audiobooks. There's too much that I'm missing that I need to read. Yeah. I'm like this the setting and the world building is so important in fantasy, I can't I can't follow it the same on an audiobook. Whereas thrillers I can. That's what I was gonna say. The appeal of thrillers is like beats. Yes. You just gotta get the beats of the story, and you're usually uh it's enough to for it to be entertaining. But if you read a fantasy and you're missing all the world building, it's usually doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:58

Yep. Especially because there's like terminology often being used that like doesn't exist outside the book. So you're like, wait, what did they just say? Whereas in like a thriller or a contemporary or romance or whatever, it's probably terms you know about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:12

I would say my exception to this, if someone's like, but I really want to listen to fantasy audiobook, The Night in the Moth by Rachel Gillig. That was actually that audiobook I found a lot easier to follow than typical.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:23

I do we should do an episode on audiobooks because I feel like there are certain stories that just translate really well and some stories that don't. And I've been studying it. I'm like, okay, if I want to be accessible on Audible and on the written page, what are some tactics to follow there? Because Audible topic. Yeah, audiobooks are are a thing, whether I like it or not. They're not my favorite, but I am trying to learn it because I want to appeal to everyone who I can.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:47

It's true. So it's true, and I would say as a format, it's just as important as having paperback and hardcover nowadays. So that's such a good topic. Next topic will be uh come come back. Yeah. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:09

That was good. That'll be the tagline.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:11

The page and writing for the page and the page. The page in the ear does have a certain fantasy young adult title vibe to it. Like you could see that on a shelf.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:21

It's because it's a noun and a noun. Yeah. We love a noun and a noun. So true. I'll never not love it. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to say about uh dialogue?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:33

Um I don't think so. I think this was a good like first topic to get back into things because we talked about it before. So there is more on it if we miss some stuff. You guys can go back and listen to that episode. Um but kind of gets us back in the groove of things. So I think that was all I had to say.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:48

Sweet. I think I said everything I had to say too, and I didn't I didn't take notes. This was so fun. I'm so glad that we came back. Carissa texted me and she was like, So recording this week. And I was like, This is the last thing in the world I expected to happen. Okay. Fantastic. Oh, and here's a fun, here's some fun updates uh for you writers out there before we sign off. So if you did not know, the Scriptorian Society is a production of Story Siren Studio, uh, along with that pretentious book club. And also, uh, in addition to podcasts, we host writing retreats. And um, as Krista mentioned, actually, because she came to the first one that we did and it was wonderful. And she taught a um a workshop on world building, and it was so fabulous. I think about it every single retreat because I'm always like, oh god, I want to offer that one again. So if we can try to, if we can get her to come to another retreat, maybe we can get the world building um workshop again, because that was fabulous. I have a workshop on uh finding your voice as a writer that I really feel like is kind of like it, I'm kind of nailing it. Nice. And a new one that is on um how to sort of like test your story ideas to see like which one is worth pursuing in the moment. And that has actually just been incredibly useful for me. So right now, those are my two favorite workshops, which is I guess is just me bragging on myself. Um, none of this is the point. I just think it's very, very fun. Uh so we host writing retreats for women. Sorry, boys. Um, you're gonna have to go host your own retreats. I encourage you to do that, but I'm that's that's not what we do here.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:13

It's on you to start your own.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:15

Yep, we're just a bunch of girlies doing stuff for the girlies. But um, we have, let's see, uh right now, our last summer writing retreat actually is happening in Montana. And then this fall, we have in October a writing retreat taking place in central New York. It's beautiful and rural and gorgeous, and that is actually the one that I'm gonna be going to now. Um, and then so if you like any of my workshops and fun to you, I will be there doing those workshops. And I think we're gonna do like uh a train ride through the Adirondacks, and we're gonna do like a workshop on the train ride, and then like right while we all look out the window at the beautiful fall full. That's awesome work. Yeah. And we're staying in this like old refurbished barn that's been turned into this like huge, gorgeous house. So um I am trying to entice Catherine right now with all of these pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:07

That does sound pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:08

Doesn't it sound cool? It's okay, I'll send you the details so you can go. And we can do world building. I actually think that we've had a few of our um the people who have registered to attend are fantasy writers too. Oh, cool. So it might be a fantasy heavy retreat, which would be cool. Um and then our other fall retreat is a our first ever luxury retreat, which basically just means everybody has their own private rooms. And whether you sign up for it or not, where you have the option to, with our other retreats, everyone gets the inspiration package, which basically means it includes all the excursions. So I think in for the New Orleans retreat in November, they're going to do a midnight ghost tour around the city, they're going to Cafe du Monde, and there's something else. I forget. But anyway, so those are the fall retreats and they're up and it's awesome. So if you guys want to go, go apply now on storysirens.com slash retreats because the the spots do fill very quickly and it's going to be a ton of fun. And um, it's uh pretty, pretty damn affordable for a writing retreat. Oh, and then um upset your if anyone's ever wanted to travel internationally. The uh we've officially booked our venue for the summer 2027 Italy riding retreat. And there's pictures online, and we're gonna be in this beautiful villa and it's very exciting, and everyone gets the excursions as well with that, and it's that one is six days long, so much longer than our typical retreat, like weekend long retreat. Yeah um so Carissa and I will see you there, right, Carissa?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:34

That does sound pretty cool. I mean, like you might as well do almost a week if you're gonna go that far overseas.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:41

Exactly. So June 2027, mark your calendars and also apply now. Um, we do have also, I I hate talking about like payment and cost because it feels silly, but I know people get concerned about it. We do have payment plans for both for both of our our shorter retreats and the longer international ones. So if that's like a concern, like don't don't be too freaked out and like go look at it and see if it's for you. Um but yeah, anyways, cool. That's uh fun updates is go check out the writing retreats. If you're here, I assume that you have some interest in writing. Yeah, I assume. Yeah, otherwise, I maybe you have interest in medical things. Yeah, you're just here for the medical stuff we bring to the table. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:21

Yeah. Um, do we still do reading recommendations?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:24

Is that a thing here? Oh sure. Why not? Do you have a reading record off the top of your head? I have been reading and listening to a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:31

Okay, so audiobooks. Well, should I say no? I'll do I'll I'll have other audiobooks to recommend maybe. Um Game of Nines by James Patterson. I listened to that. It's very short, I think it's like two hours long. Um, and well, that might be because I listened to it on Fastbeat, but it's genuinely like uh short. Um and it has Shailen Woodley as the the narrator. Really? Yeah. And I I love her, I think she's great. So I was intrigued by that, but it's very cool. It's basically like trying to catch a serial killer, which is my jam. Um but it's very short, very like thriller-esque, very like action-packed, and the sound effects are actually pretty cool. I can't we'll talk about this on another episode, but the sound effects are usually hit or miss for me, but I really liked the ones on this one. So nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:16

I love that. Yeah, that's how I felt about the Illuminae audiobook. Yeah. That one, their whole that whole one is gorgeous. Yeah. Um okay, I have several recommendations, and I think these are actually recommendations that you will really like too. Uh, one of them is The Escape Game. Have you heard of this? No. Okay, this is a it's a young adult thriller, and that's crazy to me because there are not a lot of young adult thrillers.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:37

And it's written, it's uh co-written by Marissa Meyer and someone named Tamara. It's either Tamara or Tamara Moss or Tamra Moss. I never know how we'll pronounce this spelling, but um, it's these teenagers who are on this like um reality escape game show, and it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:57

That sounds awesome. It's super crazy. I mean Marissa Meyer, literally anything by her, I will read. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:03

Exactly. And then I another thriller that I have this is a great one, especially for this group, because if you're a writer, this one is called The Ending Writes Itself, and it's a thriller, and it's a bunch of writers who are um like all on this island and they're basically competing with each other. Um, and it's in this like really like it's just really, really good and really interesting. And I've been thinking about it since I read it like or listened to the audiobook rather, like months ago. So The Ending Rights Itself by Evelyn Clark. Really, really, really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:33

Alright, cool. Um, also, Ash bought me this book. My parents came to visit her earlier this year, and they brought me back a ton of books. Um, one, I'm gonna forget the author. I'm usually really good at authors. It's Jewel something or something, jewel that none of this is true. Um, it was so good. Yeah, it was so good. Um, not only that is so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:56

I've read it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:57

I'm like not really, it kind of kicked off a thriller phase for me. Like I was like, okay, this is really cool. And then I bought it for my friend for her birthday, and I was like, she's a big Jody Picole fan, and I was like, I just don't know which one she has and hasn't read. So I'm gonna try to find something like kind of tangential where it's you know, like I Jodie Picole's not really thriller, but I just felt like maybe she would like it, and she really liked it too. She texted me last night and she was like, I finished the book, it was so good. So good, so it was wild. Yeah, it was very cool, and I think it's a good like um like first thriller or like a starter thriller. Um I don't really agree. I think it's a thriller because it's very like um fast-paced. I guess thrillers are supposed to be, but it's very like accessible where sometimes more so than a lot of thrillers.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:43

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:44

Any genre when you get into like kind of the I don't know, quote the weeds or whatever where it's like really intense in the genre, it can be kind of hard to break in there. But this one is a very good place to start if you're looking for it. Um totally agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:56

Lisa Jewell, most of her stuff is a lot more, it feels it all feels pretty accessible and fast paced. The characters do tend to skew a little bit older, like they usually tend to be like women in their 40s or 50s, especially in her most recent books, but so so good. Yeah. And then um oh what? It's a good variety. Riley Saver was how I got into thrilling. Wait, did you say Riley's? Yeah, that's how I got into thrilling.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:19

That's what I was thinking. I read a couple, no, I read one of his, and I have a second one. So I read Final Girls. Did you read that one?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:26

Final Girls is the one that I'm like three-quarters of the way through, and it's the only one, I think it's the only one I haven't read. I think I've read all of his other books.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:34

I have Home Before Dark. I haven't read it yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:36

That's one of my all-time favorites. It's definitely one of my top three Riley Sagers. It's so good. That one and then um The Last Time I Lied. Ooh, okay. Those are probably my top two, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:46

Sweet. They were there were several on sale for Prime Day, so I I was like, well, why not? And then I was pleasantly surprised. So and then I I saw his name. I was like, I think Ash has mentioned this person, but I'm not totally sure. Like sometimes I'm just I think I'm getting confused with the fact that your son is named Riley. So I was like, no, maybe I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:08

Riley hasn't written anything too young.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:11

Um but yeah, so Final Girls was very good, and I I really liked it. So good.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:17

Ah, but I'm so glad that you're into thrillers now, somewhat because I feel like I'm largely the only one in my little circle down here that likes thrillers. Everyone else is into fantasy, which I also love. But I think part of the reason that I've become so much more into thrillers than fantasy. She's hungry, or you're hungry. Oh my god, my husband just walked up and he's looking at me pitifully and he's going, Eat. I'm hungry.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:42

Just wait till eight. Well, it's eight here. I don't know what time it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:45

I already made dinner. We've already eaten.

unknown 1:24:49

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:52

I'm lucky. Make a sandwich. Yeah, hey, make a sandwich. You can make a fluffernutter. I made a fluffernutter earlier. No? Okay, I don't know how to help you. I already made dinner.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:06

This has already been done.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:08

We've already established this. You got the big bowl, remember? Anyways, um, I'm glad that you're into thrillers. And I think that I mostly am into thrillers at the moment. I mean, because I I do just absolutely love thrillers and I'm working on there's two thrillers I'm writing right now, actually. Um but when you have to listen to audiobooks because you don't have time to sit down, because if I first of all, I don't have the time to sit down, but even when I do sit down, well, even though I shouldn't sit down, Riley is like, what a great time to tackle mommy and to talk to mommy and mommy, watch this, mommy, watch this, mommy, watch this, mommy, watch this, mommy, watch this. And if I put in my headphones, then all I have to hear is mommy, watch Oh my gosh. And it's a lot more bearable. All right. So listening to a lot of audiobooks. And as we've established, I don't listen to fantasy audiobooks very much because I I miss too much.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:01

But um, I'm so psyched because now I'm gonna send all of my thriller recommendations away. A dude came into the bookshop yesterday and was like, um, so I work night shifts and I'm looking for some new books to read, and I was wondering, like, do you have any like recommendations? And I absolutely love when someone comes in and asks for recommendations. I'm like, oh boy, do I.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:19

Tell me more. I have so many.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:21

Exactly. And I was like, so what do you like to read? And he was like, uh, thrillers. And I was like, that's all I need to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

I got you.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:28

And so then I was like, this book and this book and this book and this book and this book. Sorry, he just showed me the Whataburger thing on his phone. And then I was like, that sounds good. And he goes, if you're not watching the video, you're gonna miss this. So he went. And he's like not gonna get me any basically. Wow.

unknown 1:26:50

You already had dinner.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:51

You already had dinner.

unknown 1:26:53

No, it wasn't. It was fake noodles.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:56

Fake noodles. I'm keeping another human alive. It was fake noodles, spam, and a boiled egg. It was ramen with ramen. Nice.

unknown 1:27:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:08

Uh anything else that you want to say before I derail us again? Because I will.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:12

No, I think that was it for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:14

Derail away. Okay, solid. Um, follow us if you guys haven't. We're on Instagram. We haven't been on there in a hot minute, although I have posted some stuff. Also, follow that pretentious book club. If you guys haven't checked out our sister podcast, it is uh it's been somewhat busier. We've been posting somewhat regularly on there lately. It is a comedy book club podcast, so do expect absolutely nothing serious to happen there. Uh, that's we absolutely refuse to. And if you guys are in Texas or coming through Texas, stop by Hotto and come into the bookshop. And uh, if you tell me that you listen to the podcast and you can prove it, you can have a little discount. Why not? That would be fun. I'd love to know when people have listened and often they have not.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:54

You should give like a little keyword that they can give you. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:57

What would it be? Yeah, like a secret, like a code. Oh, it could be the break the rule, uh, know the rules so you know when to break them. Ooh, that's a good yeah. If you use that phrase, just slip it into casual conversation with one of my with one of my employees at the cash register. Move your eyebrows a little bit. Yeah, move the eyebrows. I'll have to make sure to tell them so they're not like what? What? I'll let them know. But yeah, if you guys want to drop that uh drop that phrase when you come into the register.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:23

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:23

A little how how does a 10% discount sound? Perfect. 10%? Wow. Take that, Amazon.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:30

Buy 10% more books.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:32

Yeah, you can. Actually, we did just start doing happy hour, which is fun because it's not just we do have a cafe with beer, wine, coffee, tea. And it we do have deals on that for happy hour, but it we also have like a buy a new book and get half off a used book. Love that. For happy hour, which I think is really fun. Cool. So yeah. Anyways, not to continually just plug all of all of the stuff. But uh hopefully we'll see you guys at a writing retreat. Follow us on the socials. You can follow uh at Story Siren Studio as well and get updates about the retreats. And um yeah, we'll be back to talk about audiobook stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:06

I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:07

Awesome. All right, solid.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:09

We're back. We think we're not gonna make any promises, but that's the goal.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:13

Yeah, that's the goal. I know we're not promising a schedule, but we'll be here probably more. Peace. Um, so until next week, keep writing.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:23

And we'll see you on the next page.