Thomas Cullen, Federal Judge, Writer-Episode #392

Thomas Cullen is a federal trial judge and former U.S. attorney in Virginia. He was recently honored as the 2024 Carter O. Lowance Fellow from the William & Mary Law School, which is his alma mater.

A native of Richmond, Virginia, Thomas studied history and ran track at Furman University in Greenville, South Carolina, from which he was recently awarded an honorary doctorate.

Thomas is also an accomplished writer. For more than ten years, he regularly published op-eds and essays in national and regional media outlets until his appointment to the bench made publishing further such articles prohibitive.

However, he didn’t stop writing. In 2025, he published his first novel, Charlie-Man, which I’ve read and can tell you is a beautifully written, fictional coming-of-age story that reads like a powerful, heartfelt memoir. Charlie-Man is for readers of all ages, from teens on up. It will have a strong resonance for anyone who has ever struggled with love and loss throughout their teenage years.

Transcript

Steve Cuden: 0:00

On today's Story Beat

Thomas Cullen: 0:02

To the aspiring writer who has always wanted to give it a try. I would just strongly encourage you to try it. Right. It's going to be difficult writing that first chapter. That first paragraph is incredibly difficult. But I think you will find that if you accomplish that and take it a step at a time, it comes together.

Announcer: 0:20

This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden. A podcast for the creative mind. Storybeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: 0:51

Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, Thomas Cullen, is a federal trial judge and former U.S. attorney in Virginia. He was recently honored as the 2024 Carter O. Lowens Fellow from the William and Mary Law School, which is his alma mater. A native of Richmond, Virginia, Thomas studied history and ran track at Furman University in Greenville, South Carolina, from which he was recently awarded an honorary doctorate. Thomas is also an accomplished writer. For more than 10 years, he regularly published op eds and essays in national and regional media outlets until his appointment to the bench made publishing further such articles prohibitive. However, he didn't stop writing. In 2025, he published his first novel, Charlie Mann, which I've read and can tell you is a beautifully written, fictional coming of age story that reads like a powerful, heartfelt memoir. Charlie Mann is for readers of all ages, from teens on up. It will have strong resonance for anyone who's ever struggled with love and loss throughout their teenage years. So for all those reasons and many more, I'm truly privileged to welcome the respected jurist and brilliant writer Thomas Cullen to Story Beat today. Thomas, welcome to the show.

Thomas Cullen: 2:09

Thanks for having me, Steve. It's a pleasure to be here.

Steve Cuden: 2:11

Well, it's my great privilege. Um, so let's go back in time just a little bit. At what point in your life, how young were you when, when you first became interested in books and storytelling?

Thomas Cullen: 2:22

So, um, I was privileged to have a mom who read to me as a child, uh, and I remember vividly being age 4, 5, 6, 7, sitting with, um, my two sisters. Also have a little brother who wasn't born yet. We would sit in her bedroom every night and, uh, she would read to us. I was never, uh, a great student until later in life, but I always was an avid reader. I love books and I think because I was an avid reader, I became an inable writer. And fortunately I was able to use those skills in the practice of law and in my professional career.

Steve Cuden: 3:02

And how did you use those skills in the practice of law?

Thomas Cullen: 3:05

A lot of folks don't know that most lawyers and lawyers generally do a lot of writing. A lot of it is not very good writing and not something that anyone wants to read. But effective lawyers are skilled writers. A big part of being, uh, an advocate is written, uh, advocacy. I felt like by the time I became a practicing lawyer, I was a decent writer. Through the practice of law over the last 20 plus years, uh, I've honed those skills and, uh, improved those skills. We always improve, uh, as writers. And that's something that has been important, uh, in my career from start to the current day.

Steve Cuden: 3:45

So I've had the, I don't know, you'd say good fortune or poor fortune to have dealt with a lot of lawyers in my life, including members of my family. But also in my own personal life, I've dealt with lots of lawyers. And one of the things I've noticed about lawyers is they're very good at telling stories. Not necessarily fictional stories, but they're storytellers. Is that something that you find to be true with most good, especially trial lawyers?

Thomas Cullen: 4:08

No, absolutely. Particularly for trial lawyers. Right. You have to establish a narrative. What is this case about? Um, to interest, uh, a jury, uh, to interest a judge, to put things in layman's terms and uh, capture and hold, uh, an audience's attention. So whether you're doing that standing in the well of a courtroom or, um, through a brief, that's always the goal. And it should be in the back of your mind, uh, when you're kind of marshaling the facts and coming up with a narrative and making an argument and coming from the beginning of a story to the middle of a story to the end of a story in a trial sense is very important, just like it is in a novel. Absolutely. It's critical. You have to, uh, stay with the script. Right. And try, um, not to deviate and um, make the points that you need to make and make them effectively. So you've also always then been a reader of fiction? Yes, yes. Um, fiction and nonfiction. Uh, I'll read anything you put in front of of me. I think my worst nightmare would be to be stuck in a room without something to read. Well, that's that old cliche. If you were going to be stuck on a deserted island, what book would you like to have with you? You know, Absolutely. What writers did you admire as a kid and who do you admire now? Sure. Um, so as a kid, um, coming up, in terms of fiction, I loved Ernest Hemingway. Uh, read almost everything, uh, he wrote. Robert Penn Warren's all the King's Men is probably my favorite novel. Um, I loved Catcher in the Rye. Um, in terms of fiction, um, those are probably my favorites. But I'm an avid reader of nonfiction and biography. Uh, I'm a big Winston Churchill fan. I've probably read every biography, uh, including William Manchester trilogy, on Winston Churchill. Winston Churchill was himself a great writer, and that's something I've always admired about. Winston Churchill is one of the most brilliant writers who's ever lived, no question. Um, and you mentioned Catcher in the Rye. It's interesting. Just this afternoon, as I was reviewing my notes for tonight, uh, I thought to myself, your book is somewhat reminiscent of Catcher in the Rye. It has that quality to it. Well, I appreciate that. That's a compliment. J.D. salinger. I mean, that was a watershed work in the early 1950s, and it has lasting resonance and importance today. But most folks don't know this about me. Before I was a, uh, practicing lawyer, before I went to law school, I taught 10th grade Eng. Oh, really? At an all boys, ah, prep school in Virginia. And Catcher and Her Eye was part of the syllabus that year. And I had four different sections and got to read it four or five times and teach the novel. And it was, it was great fun. Well, that's. I think it shows in your work. That's what I really noticed. It has that tone and tenor. And we'll talk more about that in a few minutes. Um, when did you start to write? How old were you? When you begin to seriously think about writing. So I had, um, great teachers along the way. Uh, I was privileged to attend a school that emphasized writing and good writing and teaching the basics in terms of grammar and style and usage, from diagramming sentences to constructing, um, essays, uh, and the like. So I had an interest in writing early on, carried through college, where I worked for the college newspaper, um, wrote, uh, op EDS and essays. And then even as a practicing lawyer, in addition to writing briefs and the like, I would regularly write op EDS for various news outlets on legal topics, political topics, and the like. And then when I became a judge, I could no longer opine on current events and politics and those sorts of things. So I had to find a new outlet. So, so were. Did you take writing classes in school before you ever thought about the law? I never took. I mean, I took. I went to a liberal arts college, so I took, ah, English and communications and history. Did a lot of writing in my spare time, but, you know, didn't specialize in creative writing or anything like that. So your training is just by having written a lot? Correct, Just writing a lot, um, as a student, writing a lot as a lawyer, and writing every day as a judge. Well, I bet you do write every day a lot as a judge. And you, you probably read a whole lot too. I do. Uh, and not all of it's good. Well, I do know for fact certain that as a screenwriter, I've taught screenwriting for almost 15 years. And one of the things that I teach in my classes is if you ever, as a student, if you ever want to see how not to write dialogue, just read a deposition. I think that's probably very true. Well, because, uh, the stenographer is capturing all the ums and ers and stops and starts and it makes no sense half the time. I mean, you read it, it doesn't have any dramatic drive at all. Right. Now as a lawyer, you think you were so eloquent until you read the transcript. I'm sure that's exactly right. So for you, what makes a good story good? So, you know, it's in the eye of the beholder. Um, but I think, and I teach law students this when I speak to them, you have to establish, uh, a narrative and grab the reader right from the outset. And in legal writing, right, so we're talking about mundane business disputes and accidents and medical malpractice cases. You have to find the story within the dense and dull subject matter. And, uh, I think good writers, uh, who are lawyers can do that effectively. It takes patience, it takes ingenuity, it takes creativity, and it takes a lot of time and work. But there's always a story in something and you have to find the story, establish the story and carry it through. Absolutely. I also imagine that in your time as both a lawyer and a judge, you've met and dealt with lots of, I'm putting air quotes up characters, uh, in your life. No question. Are you able to use those observations in your writing? Um, I probably do. In terms of the novel Charlie man that I wrote, certainly folks that I encountered along the way as a young man during my formative years played a significant role in the characters, uh, in the particular, particular novel. I've yet to write a book about being a lawyer and some of the folks I've encountered along the way as a prosecutor and a defense attorney, I may very well do that at some point. And certainly if I Did I would likely draw on some of the characters that I've had the good fortune to be around. I have no doubt you've seen many. Um, Are you a fan of John Grisham and uh, Tarot? No, absolutely. I was a fan of John Grisham. Uh, the Firm, I think was the blockbuster that came out, uh, even before For Time to Kill. Time to Kill, I think was his first novel, wasn't a commercial success. The Firm put him on the map. I read them all early and probably read every, everything he's written. He is a Virginian, you know, he's Mississippian native. But he, uh, makes his home outside of Charlottesville, Virginia, so we claim him as our own. You may as well. Uh, so I think that you probably would write some really excellent legal thrillers. I think that's what you should think about. Well, I'll have to give it some thought. If I have some time, maybe we can, we can make that happen. Well, there you go. Let's talk about Charlie Mann for a bit. Tell the listeners, uh, more about what Charlie Mann is about. Sure. So Charlie Mann is a, uh, coming of age novel. Uh, it's set, ah, in a unique place. Richmond, Virginia, where I was born and raised, um, at that time a sleepier southern city. It's now a major metropolitan area in a progressive southern city. It was less so in the, uh, early to mid-1990s when, when I was in high school. But it's set in a unique time. So it's uh, circa 1994, 1995. And this is the pre Internet, pre social media, pre cell phone age. But that said, it deals with a teenage protagonist who was dealing with, uh, things that are timeless in terms of challenges, um, things that, uh, young folks have faced as long as humans have walked the face of the earth in terms of loss of a parent, anxiety, fraught friendships, uh, first loves and the like. So it deals with all of those timeless challenges and themes, but in a unique place at a unique time. Uh, before kids were wedded to their phones and actually talked face to face and had, uh, lengthy conversations. Well, the old, uh, writing cliche is write what you know, which I always say is not necessarily from your life, it's just what you know in your heart to be true or from your research. Um, in this case, you are. You wrote a story that takes place among teenagers from a, from a period of time when you were a teenager. So how did you go back and relate to all that? Did you take notes back in the day? Did you keep journals? I Didn't, uh, I was going all vivid memory, uh, for the most part, for a long time. Thought one, one day I would. I would take a stab at writing a novel. And I knew how the first chapter would go, but I didn't know much beyond that. Um, and the, the project kind of came about, um, after several conversations with my wife. I had written an essay on fly fishing in the winter with my golden retriever. And I had such a ball doing that. And she just said, you know, you ought to try to write, write a novel. And, uh, I kind of laughed it off and thought about it for a week. And then one evening I said, you know what? I'm going to try to start that first chapter. I've thought long and hard about. I did. And, uh, it just started to flow. So why do that now? Why did you decide to. What happened in your life that's now as opposed to five years ago or five years from now? So, uh, you know, that's a great question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. I guess at some point you, you come to the realization you're not getting any younger. Right? That's for sure. You know, memories fade and, um, as you get older, you have less energy in industry that may have when you're a little bit younger. And I just felt like this was a good time. And I was in, uh, a station in life where I was able to spend time early in the morning before court and on the weekends to devote to the project. And I just decided to make a go of it. Is that when you write early in the morning? Yeah, I do my best work probably first thing in the morning. Um, I'm an early riser. And, uh, after having coffee and, uh, getting ready for the day, um, I have. I think probably I'm a little more focused than I am later in the day and in the evening. And, uh, I've found over the course of my career as a student and as a lawyer that I do my best work early rather than later. And how much time could you typically devote to writing in the morning? So it just, it depended on the day. Um, usually I would have an hour and a half to two hours before I had to turn to other things. You know, sometimes if, uh, cases settled or, uh, trials went away, I would have an hour during the day to turn back to it, and then would spend a lot of time on Saturdays and over the weekend, um, working on it. You know, going into it, I had no idea, uh, how long it would take. But I found once I Started. I uh, enjoyed it so much that things just kind of flowed and I was able to put together the manuscript in about three months now. That said, I spent you know, a year editing, rewriting with the help of really talented publisher. At least the first draft just kind of came out. Well, the, the, I've always said to people that the craft of writing is that first draft and then the art of writing and storytelling is the revisions. No question. Uh, I learned early on in my career as a lawyer that, that the editing is uh, oftentimes more important than the writing. Oh. Inevitably, because that first draft is usually not very good. Uh, I don't know if you ever read um, now uh, I'm forgetting her name. It's Annie. Um, well anyway, the book is called Bird by Bird. Have you ever read. No, I'm m trying to remember Annie's last name and I'll think of it in a second. But uh, she has a. It's all about being a writer and writing and she has an entire chapter called Shitty first draft. It's true, it's true. It really is. Uh, and Annie Lamott is her name. I knew I'd think of it in a second. I highly recommend it. It's an outstanding book about writing and being a writer. Um, so where did you begin in this process? Did it begin with characters or with plot? So I think it began with characters. I knew, um, who the protagonist was, I knew who his best friend was. I knew he would have a girlfriend. Uh, I knew that there were uh, important influences on his life in terms of teachers, coaches, uh, a strong personality, mother. Um, so it was character driven. And then the plot kind of took shape from there. Um, it's interesting you're a screenwriter. The most daunting part for me, and the thing I was most worried about was dialogue. As a lawyer you don't write dialogue. And uh, that was the one aspect I wasn't sure I could pull that off. And as I got into it I just found myself in the shoes of these characters as an 18 year old boy. Just imagine how would you uh, have ah, put that. What would you have said? What's the wise ass comeback, right, that you would have used in that particular situation? And I just had a ball doing that. So it ended up, you know, the dialogue wasn't nearly. I mean it was still challenging but, but I thought I was able to pull it off in the end. It was freeing for you because it wasn't your day job and it wasn't what you normally write. Right? That's exactly right. So. So that. So that was an important piece. And then, you know, I'm sometimes asked, are you, uh, know regimen by an outline or suit of your pants type writer? And I'm probably a little bit of a hybrid. So I didn't have a clear sense of how the plot would develop, um, when I started. But as the book progressed, I started to anticipate and think about twists and turns and as ideas would come to me. A lot of times when I try to run every day on the trails, uh, in the mountains here outside of my home, I would get back from a run and take out a piece of scratch paper and kind of map out the next couple of chapters. You were thinking steps ahead. You weren't confronting each chapter fresh like you had no idea you were actually thinking ahead. I was, yes. I talked to plenty of writers on this show that do either or both. Um, most writers are outliners, but there are quite a few who just go at it. I don't know how you do it. I'm an outliner, so I need to know where I'm going before I sit down to write. It's just the way it works for me. What do you think it is about Charlie that hooks you right in? So I, you know, I think, um, Charlie as a character, hopefully folks can relate to someone, uh, in terms of being a mediocre student, but. But someone who's, uh, I think wise and maybe wise beyond his years. He's, he's empathetic, he's got a wry sense of humor. Um, he. He takes setbacks in stride. Uh, he deals with a lot of crap, but. But at the end of the day, I think he shows a certain res and uh, the ability to persevere. So hopefully the reader can identify with having these challenges, but facing challenges with aplomb and keeping your head up and continuing to move forward. So you have some terrific themes throughout this book. Uh, and they really do relate to teenagers in particular, though I think to everyone in general. You have competition and bullying and abuse and, um, ambition to forge ahead in your life. Certainly love lost and heartache and brotherliness. That gets all messy, especially between your two protagonists, more or less, um, and betrayals and growing up. Was this something that you've thought about for a long time or did it just flow out of you as you were working? So I think it flowed out as I was working. And I think subconsciously, um, you know, you're aware of what are you trying to accomplish here? Right? What, what is the implicit message right what do you want the reader to take away from, you know, this particular situation and how he handles himself? Um, so I think that's an important aspect. Are you able to say what that is without giving anything away? So I think I'd be lying if I said it was overly intentional, uh, on my part. But at the same time, I mean, it's false, right? Going to a prep school and all the baggage that comes through that experience, and every experience is different, and they have their positives and their negatives, and there's certainly a lot of negatives. With growing up and kind of a privileged environment and going to a school like that, it does teach you certain things. Right? And I was fortunate to have teachers, uh, and coaches and friends who, um, through struggles and challenges, really, really taught me to, you know, you've got to move forward. You got to keep your head up. Life is. Life is tough, you know, suck it up and, uh, uh, make the best of it. Well, I'm one of those people that found being a teenager very difficult. It was not fun for me. I didn't. I couldn't wait to be an adult. And, uh, as I look back, I think, how did I get through that? But you do. You kind of like you're living one step every day, and you. You learn from it. And I think that that is how we mature and become people. And. No question. And, um, you know, the current generation and I have two teenage children, right. Uh, it's different. And one of the things I worry about, Steve, is is this generation, are these kids, uh, equipped to deal with life. Right. Are they as resilient, uh, as prior generations? Well, I think the thing that, uh, has altered it inextricably with all the challenges is the cell phone and computers and all these screens. I think this has changed our humanity in a huge way. Don't you agree? And, uh, there's no question in terms of shortened attention spans and how people socialize with each other. One could argue it's just not a normal way to go through life. Well, Charlie Mann is a good example of how it was. I'm not sure you'd write a novel the same way today. About today. Uh, there's no question. And I couldn't do it because I don't, um, fully understand. Well, I think that's part of the problem is I think very few people understand it. I think even the people that are young and in it don't understand it. I think that's very true. And it'll probably be a generation or two when people look back and finally break it down and figure it out. And so that's what's almost relieving about reading Charlie Mann is that it takes you back to a, uh, for lack of a better cliche, a, uh, gentler, kinder time. Even though the characters in this book are. Go through hell. Yes. No question. Right. It's got its positives and its negatives. I think one of the positives is that we related to each other a little bit differently. So you wrote this. As I said in the intro, it feels like memoir, even though it isn't. I assume that there's a degree of autobiographical stuff in here, but it's not. Not an autobiography. Correct. It's not an autobiography. Right. I mean, I grew up in that. In that city at that time. Um, I think several of the characters are familiar to the author. Um, there are no dead ringers. There are composites of people that I knew. Uh, I have a lot of friends in Richmond, Virginia, who I grew up with, and folks who were teachers of mine and knew me back then, and they love to try to guess who some of these characters are. And, you know, and I won't admit to anything because I don't want to be sued, uh, in the novel. And, uh, there are no dead ringers. Well, okay, so I don't want. Not going to try to pry legal advice out of you, but could you be sued as a novelist for writing characters that are based on people you know? No, I don't think so. Fiction is fiction. Insofar as you're holding the book out as a work of art or work of fiction, by and large, I think you're protected in terms of. Hopefully that's the case. Well, even. I mean, authors write Romana clefs, which are very much closely related to real characters. And I guess as long as they're in the public domain, the characters in the public domain, then you're okay. But I think you're extraordinarily good at setting tone. I mentioned that earlier on. I'm just curious, is there anything that you did intentionally to set the tone of the book? I don't know that it was intentional. I was trying to, um, be authentic. Right. In terms of my voice and, um, the characters is, you know, I recalled them. So to say that, you know, I set out to do that. I think I'd be lying to claim it. Where did the emotions in the book come from? I mean, are you an emotional person, or is this. My wife would say I am not an emotional person. You know, I can Be emotional. You know, in terms when you have children, it's hard not to be, uh, emotional. I think you get more sentimental as you get older. Um, but given the nature of my job and most of the work I've done over the course of my career, you can't be overly emotional. So I think this was cathartic. Right. In some respects, this was. You can get out of that world and recollect and reminisce, you know, be a little more unguarded. Uh, again, it's a freeing thing for you because of, of the type of job you do. No question. And, and I was heavily invested in it. I mean, I found Steve when I finished the first draft, for several days. I was sad. I missed those characters and kind of being part, uh, of their life. I mean, I was reliving to a certain extent, being that age and, uh, having those experiences. And that was a cool thing for me. Well, have you thought about writing a sequel to it? Where, where would Charlie Mann be today? Yeah, that, that's a great question. I, I, I don't know. There's a possibility maybe there's a sequel, uh, at some point, or, uh, maybe something entirely different. Charlie, you know, I think we leave him, and he's in a pretty good spot. He's been through a lot, but he's got a, a long life to live. So who knows? Well, because he, we won't give anything away, but he faces both life and death in the show. It's in the show, in the book. And, uh, for sure he has to contend with a lot of things. I found some of the scenes, um, uh, difficult to read, especially the stable scenes. Those were challenging. Um, did you experience anything like that as a kid, where you had people and violence and that kind of thing? I think the way I answer that, that particular scene is probably more familiar to the author, um, than perhaps some of the others. Um, and I probably should leave it at that. Well, that's good. Yeah, you should leave it at that. That was probably a little more, um, memoir than some of the other parts of the book. Well, I think that's, um, powerful stuff is what it is. And I think that that bleeds through in there, that it's that powerful to you, the author. So where did Charlie come from? Um, he was a football and track star. You were a runner? I was a runner. Um, I played football through jv, but I was a terrible football player. I weighed about 140 pounds. Used to get the crap kicked out of me. What position? So I, uh, JV I played tight end and uh, defensive back. I was a pretty good blocker as a tight end. Just a gangly, you know, I was probably five'11,140 pounds. I could hold the line, but I was a pretty, pretty poor tackler. Well, at 140 pounds, what kind of a defensive pack are you going to be? Not much of one. Not much of one. To the extent I have any athletic ability, it was as a runner. And you have this marvelous, um, three part relationship in the story between Charlie and Beau and Katie. And that's, I think that's. I never went through anything like that in my life. So I found it interesting to read. I think that people who have been through that, and I won't give that away either, um, that people have been through where there are three people involved that it can be very, very challenging. No question. Particularly if you're 18 years old. Right. Particularly if you're 18 years old. I think, listen, I don't think it's easy when you're 50 either, but at 18, yeah, that's really tricky. Did you use any particular techniques from any kind of, um, books or advice from anyone regarding how to create the characters, how to put them together and make them three dimensional? I didn't, um, and maybe I should have, but this was, you know, I just kind of started and the characters developed organically, um, certainly through the uh, editing process with input from my publisher and copy editor. They helped me refine and build and challenge certain aspects and improved uh, the characters probably significantly. But in terms of kind of formulaic, this is how you do it. No, I didn't do that. You got notes from people on this? Yes. Um, and did you have a specific editor that you worked with? I did. So. Um, my publisher, Brandy Lane. I was fortunate going into this project. I mean I had no idea how this worked. Right. And how unique this industry is and just how difficult it is. Right. To get a book published. I was very naive. I mean I feel like as a judge and established lawyer, I know a lot about a lot of things. I didn't know anything about this, but I was fortunate early on in the process to find a publisher that was based in Virginia. I think part of the reason they were interested in the book to begin with is because this is a judge writing, uh, a young adult novel and that's worse worth, you know, our time to at least give it a read. So they agreed to, to read it and we were able to, to figure out, you know, arrangement to, to publish it. They were just fantastic. I was really, really impressed from a small indie publisher, um, the amount of support in terms of getting the manuscript polished and ready to go and then through the publication process and everything that follows. Well, you, you know, as I say, I've been doing this show for a long time and I've had a number of lawyers on the show, uh, but I've never had a judge on the show. So that says something about the fact that you are unusual in that you wrote a novel while on the bench. Yes. What did you do, do you think, to avoid the characters feeling stereotyped? Because they do not. They feel very rich. That's a great question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. Um, you know, I was just trying to create authenticity. Characters that were, you know, close in terms of disposition, uh, and the way they go about life, uh, to the folks that, that I encountered along the way. You know, you can stereotype anything, and I'm sure you can stereotype some of these characters. But to the extent you think that I did a decent job trying to avoid major stereotypes, I will take that as a compliment. Well, it's very easy for people to think, I love X book. I like Catcher in the Rye. I'll just write a book that's like Catcher in the Rye. And that imitation always comes off to me as three, as two dimensional or cardboard. It doesn't feel real. And so what you did, I think, felt very authentic. In fact, part of the authenticism of it, or authenticity, I think is the right word. It would be that you have this story that takes place in your hometown, where you grew up. Up and at an age that you experience certain things. And so that's part of the authenticity of it. Did you need to do any further research? Did you have to go back into the archives or library or anything to research things? I really didn't. Um, and I've been asked that. Did you go back to the dam and the river and where you used to hang out? And, uh, I didn't, because you can't. They've now built houses and it's changed so much. M. Naturally, in 30, 35 years. So I get arrested for trespassing if I attempted that today. Even the neighborhood, which is very vividly drawn in the book, that's gone too. You know, the neighborhood is there. This is in, um. So the novel is essentially set in what's called the near West End, Richmond, which is kind of the old established part of Richmond neighborhoods. The big elm trees and oak trees and poplar trees, uh, the colonial Type houses, uh, the serpentine walls and the like. So a lot of that is still there. Where part of the book is set on the river, this old house and a bluff, undeveloped land, a lot around that has now been developed. And that's sort of old Richmond, isn't it? That's old Richmond. It doesn't go back to the Civil War, does it? Or does it go back that far? The city itself? No, this neighborhood, the houses? Uh, no, the neighborhood would be post Civil War, uh, turn of the 20th century. Got it, got it. And where does St. Mark's Episcopal School come from? Is that based on a real school? Yes, so it's loosely based on a real school. I actually attended a co Ed School. St. Mark's in the book is an all boys school. And um, I think readers who are familiar with Richmond would uh, quickly identify which particular all boys school that was a rival of my school that it's loosely based on. All right, so what do you think, uh, the biggest challenges you faced in writing the book was? Was it time? Was it development? What do you think the biggest challenge was for you? So I think going in, as I said, dialogue was a significant challenge. Carving out time was always a challenge. And then until I was able to get a publisher, just figuring out how I was going to get this project completed and out into the world, uh, which I think is a great challenge for most writers who want to, to accomplish something like that. So you clearly secured a book deal. I think we alluded to the fact that you are a judge and that was probably intriguing in part to the publishers. But what do you think writers, uh, should do in order to get a publisher or attract a publisher? What do you, from your experience here, what do you think is important? Being willing to kind of think outside the box. Right. There are scores of reputable indie publishers, small publishers that are all over the United States and all over the world. Um, you know, it's very difficult, number one to find an agent, number two, to get one of the big four publishers to pick up your novel. One of the things I learned through this process is, you know, the whole market for fiction is just changed and the days of advances and royalties and all of those things. Things, or unless you're John Grisham and you know, One of the 20 bestselling authors, uh, regularly, you're not going to be able to go that route. Particularly as a unpublished, uh, first time novelist. It's almost impossible. You have to have a track record, you have to have a social media platform. They got to be Able to market you. And you can't have a social media platform. Right. And I can't. Right. Given, given what I do. And, and that was one of the challenges in marketing this. I mean, I can't put out content and, uh, plug things and plug myself. Uh, I just can't ethically as a judge. So that was a challenge. So I think, um, authors, uh, aspiring authors need to be willing to think outside the box and try an indie publisher. Think about, I don't know, self publishing works for everyone. But, but, um, insofar as that is a viable, uh, option for folks, they ought to consider it. At the end of the day, if you have a good book and you want to share it, um, you got to be willing to do what it takes to get it out there. That's correct. And the market is saturated with books at this point. And there are, I can't remember what the number is. It's 70, 80, 90,000 books a year are published. And it's very difficult to break through and get people to pay attention to. Just like the podcast. Podcasting is the same thing. There are 5 million podcasts, literally 5 million and everybody. And so you have to figure out how to break through that too. Um, I'm curious. In both your professional life and your writing life, you have had to deal with some kind of pressures. I assume that the pressures as a trial lawyer and then a judge, there are different kinds of pressures. Is there anything you do creatively to tamp down pressure in your life or to deal with pressure? Look to my creative juices to, uh, tamp down pressure necessarily. It's interesting. I spoke to some law students earlier this week and I had a similar point. How do you deal with the pressure of high profile cases? And my answer to them in that context, I think it's true. Um, for writing or really anything else, is that hard, uh, work and preparation go a long way. Um, and I, you know, I don't claim to be brilliant, I'm not. Um, but I've always, in terms of the work that I enjoy, uh, I put in the time and the effort and I don't take things for granted. And, uh, I think there's a lot to be said for that. Well, I think it has to show because you're full time on a difficult job and you then publish a novel, you must be a very hard worker. You aren't sitting around twiddling your thumbs, that's for sure. I like to stay busy. Well, that's a good thing. I want to talk for a moment about writing articles, which you did for a long time. So you've published op EDS and essays. How do you think that doing that impacted the discipline required to write the novel? So, um, it's a different genre, right? Different style, a, ah, different purpose. But it requires the same type of discipline. And ultimately, you know, one of the things I, to the extent I pride myself on anything, is that I try to be consistent in my writing. Whether I'm writing an opinion or writing an op ed or writing, um, this particular novel, uh, I want the writing to be accessible, right? So when I'm writing opinions, the last thing I want is it to be larded up with legalese and, you know, just to be boring and dull and uninteresting. It's really important for me to try to craft prose in a way that um, is just clear and simple and concise and really grabs the reader. Well, if you write legal opinions the way that you wrote this book, then it's absolutely plain and clear. Uh, but I've never read any of your opinions, so I don't know whether that's true or not. I imagine that you probably, um, struggle. Not. Struggle is not the right word. But don't care for writer. Or uh, lawyers that come in and do gussy it all up with legalese. Probably makes you a little crazy, I bet. No, it does. Fortunately, most of the lawyers that practice for me on a regular basis are pretty decent writers and their work product is fine. Uh, but that's not always the case. And um, I'll tell you this, as a judge, when you have someone who puts together a really polished brief and it comes in under 15 pages, the opposition is 45 or 50, you've gone a long way to, uh, bring the judge around to your side. Oh, all you lawyers out there, pay attention. Brevity is the soul of wit, as they say. Absolutely, absolutely. And, and it's harder, right? As a judge, it's harder to write the 10 page opinion than it is to go on through 35 or pages. What's the famous Lincoln quote about? Uh, I'm sorry, this letter is so long I didn't have time or I would have made it shorter. Absolutely. It's so true. I mean that really is a great way to think about it. Um, do you prefer writing now that you've been through it? Do you have a preference whether you would rather write short stories or articles as opposed to the long form? I really enjoyed the long form. You know, it's, it's all consuming. Right. So it's not something I can do all the time and devote my, my energy to, but I enjoy the, the kind of. The essay format I, I always have. Uh, I think if I wasn't a, a lawyer and a judge, I would, you know, just hold forth and, and write op eds, 900 words on whatever the heck I want and, uh, make my point and make people laugh. I think that would be a fun way to make a living. So how do you stay disciplined when perhaps you don't feel like it? Gosh, that's a good question. I'm, um, human like everyone else. I just think, you know, you just have a conscience and guilt. You know, you just got to get to work. Right? You got to get something accomplished. I've always been kind of a list person. Right. You go in, uh, start of the day, I've got a. Accomplish four things today. And you start working and you're able to check things off the list and you feel better about yourself having done that. Oh, there's no question. You know, one of the things that we teach, and I know that it's difficult because as a human, you don't always want to work. There are distractions in your life and other things. But one of the things that we teach is that a professional, and it would be a professional at anything, let alone writing, but a professional at does the work even when they don't feel like doing it. No, no question. You know, And Steve, here's what's interesting. Ah. Uh, I've heard several people say this, and it's so true with respect to writing. Good writers hate, you know, hate to write. Right. They, they dread the prospect of having to sit down and write because they know it is so difficult and they have such high standards, um, for, you know, what needs to be to, um, come out when they're at their computer. So I fall in that category m myself sometimes when I have a big writing project ahead of me, uh, I have trouble sleeping the night before because I know what it takes to, um, turn that around. So, to me, there's always been two kinds of writers. Those that love to write and those that love to have written. I'm in the latter category. I love to have written. The writing part of it is always challenging. It is always challenging. If it's not challenging, it's probably not very good. That's true, I think. Although you can point out certain writers of just prolific natures, like Stephen King, um, where, you know that he loves it so much he just bangs away. Yes. He would probably be the exception. One of the exceptions. Exceptions? Well, Neil Simon would have been an exception to churn out massive amounts of material. Um, how do you refresh your creative? Well, what do you do? So, um, you know, I do lots of different things. I love the outdoors, and I have a cabin high up in the mountains in Virginia. I take my golden retriever go fly fishing with him as often as I can. I'm out every day, exercising, running on the trails, just spending time outdoors, spending time with my family. I've always been a big believer, uh, in leaving your work at work and, uh, stepping away from that and, uh, just enjoying, um, downtime. And I think that that's really important, just having that balance in other outlets. Uh, so that's a big part of it for me. You obviously are very good at compartmentalizing things. You must be. But I'm curious. As you're writing your novel, you're also in your head thinking about what's happening at work and the various, uh, trials that are coming up and that you're writing opinions on and so on. Is there something that you are able to do where you can make that switch and not have them bleed into each other? Yeah, so they're that different. And I had to be cognizant of. Okay, I've got this coming up, so I probably need to set Charlie Mann aside for a couple of days and really be all in on, uh, um, what's coming down the pike. And are you able. Is it easy for you to do that where you can just shut it off? It was. Although, as you know, I got more, uh, involved and invested in the novel, I kept having to tell, uh, myself, you can't go back to that. Right now. You've got a day job, and you need to get these other things done first. You know, when you're in the entertainment industry, um, and sometimes, I'm sure for other novelists that are constantly writing novels, uh, you're handling multiple assignments at one time, just like you're handling multiple trials at one time, I assume. Uh, and so you're. So that ability to compartmentalize becomes super important, or I think it would make you crazy. No, you have to be able to compartmentalize and keep things in silos and go from one to the other. And when you're focused on the one to be. Be completely focused on that. And, And I'm based on this conversation, my assumption is, is that when you got to the novel part of the. The day, that was like, joy. And some of the trial stuff is just hard. It's Just work for the most part. I think that that was true. Um, although some of the trials and the cases are. Are fun and interesting, not all of them are. It's a job like anything else. I'm sure that you do some really fascinating stuff, and it must be very interesting. Interesting, uh, especially as a federal trial judge. That's other stuff than we're used to hearing about most days on the news, which is a lot of local stuff. So I, uh, think that's really cool. I have been having just the most fascinating conversation. I'm wondering if you can share with us a story from your experiences, whether as a novelist or as a judge. Doesn't matter. Um, uh, that's either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, or just plain funny. Um, you know, I feel like I'm a decent writer. I've done a lot of it over the course of my career, but I have to confess, I'm an average speller. But I'm m not a very good speller of names. And when I was in college writing for the school newspaper writing op Eds, uh, I cranked out an op Ed. And this is, you know, in the days where before I became pretty proficient at editing my own work. You know, I. You feel like once you put the last period in place, you were done and get the thing in to the publisher and you could go on the next thing. And I had, uh, referenced Oprah Winfrey in, uh, one of my op eds and spelled, uh, her name Opera. Fortunately, I turned it on a Tuesday, and I think it went to the publisher on Thursday. And I remember vividly, uh, on Wednesday I saw it. Was it a billboard or something? Advertising and opera? And I just looked at that. I thought, gosh, that that's interesting. And it just dawned on me, you know, you better go back. I think you spelled, uh, Oprah Opera. Uh, turns out I had. But I was able to, to get to it before, uh, it was put in ink and, uh, saved myself a lot of embarrassment. So the lesson there is, um, know your weaknesses and double, triple check the spelling of names. You do realize that Oprah is Harpo backwards? Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. Now, in fact, that's the name of her company on top of everything else is Harpo. All right, so last question for you today, Thomas. Um, you've, uh, given us a huge amount of just outstanding advice throughout the whole show. But I'm wondering if you can share with someone who's starting out as a writer or maybe they're in a little bit trying to figure it out. A good piece of advice or a tip? So I would say two things. One is to the aspiring writer who has always wanted to give it a try, I would just strongly encourage you to try it. It's going to be difficult writing that first chapter. That first paragraph is incredibly difficult. But I think you will find that if you accomplish that and take it a, uh, step at a time, it comes together and you just have to stick with it. It set reasonable goals in terms of output and production, whether it's 250 words a day, 500 words a day, or a thousand words a day. Just try to move the story along a little bit at a time and you will find that you will be able to accomplish what you're set your mind to. The second piece of advice I would have is don't quit your day job. Odds are you're not going to make a lot of money doing this. Do it because you love it, because you have a story to tell and, uh, because you're proud of your work. Don't do it because you think you're gonna make a fortune because you're not. But that doesn't mean you don't have a good book and a good story to tell. Two outstanding pieces of advice. Thomas Cullen. This has been a fantastic episode of Story Beat. And those of you that are interested, uh, check out Charlie Mann. I'm sure you can find it, uh, not only at Amazon, but at other fine booksellers and give it a thank you so much, Thomas, for being on the show. Thank you, Steve. It's been great. And so we've come to the end of today's Story Beat. If you like this episode, won't you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating or review on whatever app or platform you're listening to? Your support helps us bring more great Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until next time, I'm Steve Cuden and may all your stories be unforgettable.