#138: Masculinity & Relationships w/ Mike Elliott

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I welcome to the show Mike Elliot, men's coach, relationship expert, and podcaster. We discuss becoming and being a man, a healthy definition of masculinity, shame, toxic and distorted masculinity and how to shift out of it, grandiosity, bad masculine influencers, Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes, the 3 Cs of masculinity, connecting to your inner animal, how stimulus can dictate your life, bringing men up without putting women down, a report card for masculinity, defining patriarchy, and much more! 

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https://www.skool.com/theinitiatedman/about
https://www.itsmikeelliott.com/TIM

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey everybody, and welcome back to Divulgence. Uh today I'm really excited to uh welcome on a relationship expert, uh men's coach and podcaster, um, Mike Elliott. Mike, so glad to have you here, man. Uh, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Yeah, hey Jordan. Happy to be here. Looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Yeah, me too, man. It's uh uh I'm happy that we finally got to meet and um take some time to chat. So uh I know that you you probably cover a lot of different topics given the uh the work that you do dealing with um uh relationships and men and masculinity and all that stuff. And uh I feel like uh I'm not sure if you would agree completely, but I feel like over the last I mean, it feels like it's been a while now, but I feel like the last five, maybe even reaching back 10 or so years, I feel like masculinity and uh men in general, the gender have sort of been uh under attack and um in certain ways. So um, yeah, what are your thoughts on that? And um after that, where would you like to start? I I just thought that would kind of be a a thought to to start things off with.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Yeah, it's a great thought because you're hitting a really palpable thing. I think there's a lot of attack on masculinity, not just from women or other genders, but from men on the inside. You know, almost every man, almost every man that I've worked with is suffering from an immense amount of internalized shame. And when they aren't showing up or where they're not able to provide, they're beating the shit out of themselves. So getting it from the outside, getting it from culture, and if we look at movies, there's a prime example of this. Often men are portrayed as idiots, like they aren't really revered, and that's among other things, among other things, among other things, and and then also the internalization of all of that messaging that's subliminal. Men are living with it, and it's really a problem. It's the silent epidemic for men that I see over and over, and I know this one intimately because it's the one that I lived, and it ruined my life not having the blueprint of what does it actually look like to be a mature man in the world? Like, how do I do this? I didn't get the owner's manual from my dad, I didn't get it from school, I didn't get it from culture. So, how the hell were we supposed to show up and do the thing that we want to do? And that I think is in every man who has a pumping heart, it's in our DNA to be a provider, to be a protector. But if we don't even know how to do that for ourselves, how are we supposed to do it for someone else?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Wow, man, you you're really uh you're really resonating with me uh as a man. Um, yeah, man. Uh I I completely I completely agree with that. Um it's it's tough. Um, and just before you get started, I will say that you mentioning that uh from your experiencing, from your experience hearing from others about this like internal struggle. Yeah, I I I I I've been there and I'm there. I definitely feel um, especially with the the culture shifts and the societal shifts, uh, it's I feel like you're always sort of having to stop and assess the situation, uh stop to assess yourself, uh your behavior when even if you know that you're you know you're deep down a good good-hearted person, a good person with uh proper behavior, um, which I think I am, I still find myself uh questioning, maybe not questioning myself, but um, you know, assessing and just you know, just having those doubts and and fears that I'm sure that you hear about a lot.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Yeah, it's such a big one. And I I still dance with it, even the years of doing all this work. You know, I've been in men's work for over 10 years and I've seen patterns and themes in others, but also inside of me. And that voice never goes away. But my relationship to it has changed. And that's what I feel all men are being invited into is really intimately getting to know what is the voice speaking inside of my head? Is it in service to me? Or is it someone else's voice that got programmed in subconsciously without me actually getting to decide whether I want it to be there or not? This is the journey of maturing as a man. Can I be so aware to recognize the quality of my thought that is creating my present-day reality? That's the journey of masculinity, of maturing. You know, the if if we're talking about masculinity, I want to oversimplify for all the listeners. I want to highlight the healthy expression of masculine energy that's not gender-specific, but the masculine part that you know we're talking about here that can be a struggle. Masculine energy is the energy of becoming, it's the energy of expanding awareness. If we're not expanding in our awareness and our perspective, and if we are not bringing our gifts to the world in a way that is in service to humanity, I believe we will be struggling with internalized shame. We will be hard on ourselves because naturally we are here to become something. We're here to make some sort of lasting imprint. Hopefully, if we fully embody our strengths and our gifts, will last through time and space beyond our death. Like that's the journey we're here to arrive into. Like, I'm gonna make such a difference in my own inner world, bring something that people talk about after I die. I think that is the healthy expression of masculinity. But if we don't know that, we won't be able to suss out or filter how well am I doing in that journey of masculinity? Am I becoming something I feel good about that's nourishing? If I'm not, I think I'm missing my mark. Not as I'm doing anything wrong, but there's an opportunity to step into more here.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

This is really good stuff, man. This is really interesting. I'm really excited that we got to finally start talking. Um, yeah, me too. Yeah, I've I've um we've we've talked about a little bit of uh like social gender issues and stuff on the show, but excuse me. Um just because it's become so prevalent, even more so lately, uh, it's something that I've really wanted to start tackling. So I'm really glad you're here. And um, yeah, I I I'm really glad you're here and we can we can start having these conversations. So um with with that being said, uh I just want to throw out uh something that I've been meaning to ask you. Uh your thoughts on um toxic toxic masculinity. Um do you believe it's a real thing? Um what do you think? Uh what are your thoughts on how it's portrayed, and especially more so over the past uh few years?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah, I think toxic masculinity is a thing, but the meanings and the stories that we've created about it, I think are where we go a little sideways. There's a lot of shaming of toxic masculinity, and it's important to name that because we're all human beings and we're all imperfect. When I look at toxic masculinity, what I'm looking at in myself is the part of me that is shadow. The part of me to oversimplify the meaning of shadow is it's the challenged part of ourself, it's the part of us that's maybe not fully mature, it's childlike, it's still figuring things out, it does hurt people, doesn't really know the impact of its use of power. Any masculine energy that is creating a negative impact on the environment, I believe is toxic masculinity. But I don't think toxic is bad. It's just what is. Now, if we're not aware of it and it keeps perpetuating, and now it's going out and it's turned into narcissistic traits where men are hurting partners and people and taking, and you know, yeah, that's toxic. Now, shaming it isn't going to make it any better because this is a tricky thing. Toxicity is a form of grandiosity, it's energy that places itself up and over another. And that grandiosity is a survival strategy because there's actually a vulnerability underneath. And what's tricky about grandiosity is grandiosity feels good for the one who's in it because it's meant to numb the person from the shame and the healthy uh feelings that would bring back someone into uh a social responsibility of, oh, I am impacting people. That matters. I should maybe slow down and consider what I'm doing or saying here. If we're in grandiosity, we're actually just beating someone or something up because it feels good to do that, because it's better than, oh my God, I'm actually terrified and scared. And this is what happens in a lot of relationships when people are fighting back and forth is it's grandiosity and it's never going to win with aggression. The way to heal toxic masculinity is understanding the very essence of what's created it. And this is we're looking at a man who's under-resourced. Uh, an under-resourced man is a dangerous man. So we just need to look at the reality of we're looking at a lack of resource. Let's not shame the shit out of this guy. He may not even be aware. Let's get curious of how to bring an immense amount of what I call fierce love, which is mirror and reflection of hey, dude, this isn't helpful for anyone around you or you. This is in your interest to stop and take a look at what's happening. If we can bring in fierce love, not shaming and attacking, because again, when we shame and attack, it'll get bigger. Yeah. So someone who's a narcissist, you can't gum and be like, You're a narcissist. He'd be like, Yeah, screw you. And then he gets bigger and meaner. It's like because he's so afraid. There's it's that is a coping strategy that is protecting something. But if we bring in accurate mirror and reflection that is in care of the person, now they're gonna drop the weapons. Now they are gonna feel ashamed. Oh my god, I'm hurting you. Oh, I don't want to be hurting you. And then now we're offering over new ingredients that lead into a new direction, which is I need to grow these parts up. That's how we shift out of toxic masculinity is getting radically responsible of how do I create more resource in my life so that I'm a safe man to myself and the people around me.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Interesting. Okay. Um just some things just kind of pop into my mind while we're having this conversation. Um obviously there are, and there kind of always have been, um, you know, male role models. Uh, you know, there's it's just it's been around since you know pretty much the beginning of time, and you know, there's the famous ones, there's Arnold, and there's James Bond, and there's yeah, you know, yada yada yada. But now we're seeing these influencers, um which I feel like um could be a really good thing. But uh, what are your thoughts on some of these influencers? Um I guess I guess are you familiar? I'm sure you're probably familiar with like the um the manosphere, and have you like are you familiar with that? Uh the um Netflix put out a a documentary not too long ago about the manosphere, Louis Thoreau. Are you familiar with that?

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Yeah, I'm aware of the manosphere and the nature and the culture of it, and I haven't watched the the okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

But you're but you're aware. Okay, so some of these people like my Myron Gaines and uh Andrew Tate, uh, or uh or um more on the fitness side. There's people if you're familiar with like Wes Watson, if you've heard of him, or this uh King Ben Azulli. Um what are your what are your thoughts on on people like that? Because honestly, I really I really don't think they are they're they're doing this work under the guise of oh, you know, we're trying to teach men to be men and teach people how to be rich and make money and be healthy and strong and muscular. And you're like, that all sounds great, but it seems like a lot of these guys are not good people, and like they're just scamming people. Um when they're not doing that, they're they're having other legal issues, um and and the the messages that are ultimately being sent um just don't seem to be that great, and a lot of the times they it seems to be um uh at the loss of of the female, and I don't think that that's uh I don't know, like I I I could be wrong, but um I think you would agree that I don't think the goal is to uh while you know letting the man rise up to be the best he can be, put put the woman down at the same time, right? So, what are your thoughts on some of these guys and and their messages? And because you know, a lot of these people are um like uh if you're familiar with the term lol cow, um, and people just you know point their finger and laugh and and you know stuff like that. But on the other hand, I mean, these people wouldn't necessarily be that popular if they didn't actually have a real following of people that do respect them. So I don't know, man, what are your thoughts on some of these people? Because uh I look at some of them and I think to myself, you kind of gotta be um I think what kind of person do you have to be to to follow these people and genuine, genuinely think that yeah, that's a role model to me, that's a great person. And actually, I I recommend checking out the uh the Manosphere documentary just for the reason that he interviews some some Andrew Tate fans and and these kind of fans. And you you kind of you kind of feel really bad for them because they don't seem to um, I mean they're they're probably not all like that, but they don't they don't seem to grasp what these people are really like. They it's almost like they're not listening to the message fully. Um yeah, sorry, I'm kind of dragging on here. The original what is your thought of these people? What are you what are your thoughts of these people?

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Oversimplified patriarchy. And so for anyone listening, patriarchy can be there's so many meanings or definitions around it, but I want I want to name the one that just stands out. Masculine energy that is disconnected from nature. This is masculine energy that defaults to domination, power over, grandiosity. This is the this is a coping strategy for an immense amount of vulnerability underneath, is my bold belief. There is something really terrified and afraid in the development. If we go back, I can almost guarantee if we were to go back and objectively watch the tape or the movie of what happened in the early developmental phases of these men, I can almost guarantee neglect, abuse, yeah, um, false empowerment, which means given too much responsibility at the stage of development that they're at. That's all developmental trauma. And if masculine energy is disconnected from feminine energy, it turns into patriarchy because friction feels good. And if you're a man listening to this, I think you can relate. Friction feels good, it feels good to penetrate it, it feels good to go fast, it feels good in yes, you named it, Jordan, in the moment, instant gratification from the moment. It feels so good in the moment. Like, let's fucking pedal to the metal burn, my friend. Like, just let's go fast, let's screw hard, let's and that feels good. Building, making money, yep. That's still a part of life that's not bad or wrong. But if it's not informed, this is my way of relating with it from the inside. If masculine energy inside of me isn't informed by the feminine part of me, yeah, then it is gonna create a mess, it is gonna be power over and domineering. And so we need to understand the definition of feminine. Feminine energy is the energy of being, it's surrender, it's the part of us that wants to be seen. If that isn't being nourished by the practice of stillness, building relationship, really feeling the feedback of what's happening in relationship, we won't know how to penetrate with the masculine energy. And so, what masculine energy will then do is I'm feminine energy is for my use. If we go back in history, this is where masculine energy disembodied turned into burning women at the stake. It's the energy that was afraid of the unpredictability of feminine energy that's alive, that's wild, it's the wild woman, men afraid of it and stronger in most cases, and then want to smother it and kill it because it's really good at calling men out on their shit. It's really good at pulling out blind spots, pointing out blind spots. So then masculine energy tried to kill them, turn them into prostitutes, and then okay, well, let's put them in our kitchens and that's your clock, and just take care of the kids and take the whole mental load of the entire family, and I'll give you the scraps of what's left over after I spend everything I want to spend for my experience. You know, that's just so disconnected, it's very primal. So I want to be careful here. I'm not judging it in the sense of it's bad or wrong, it's an underdeveloped form of masculinity, masculinity that's been given a lot of power. Okay, too much power. Yes, and now it's not honoring the feminine because I believe true healthy embodied masculinity is forever tracking what is happening for the feminine in life, and I'm in service to it because they are more vulnerable in a certain sense. There's less privilege there, there's a vulnerability of their moon cycle, which is their period, their hormones are shifting every month, again and again and again. They're being reborn every month, and that's a vulnerable situation that society hasn't considered or be considered, they haven't been considerate of it. And so there's a privilege that we have, and I believe it's every man's job to mature this privilege so that it can be in service to the women and the children. Because if we're in service to the women and the children, we're now actually creating an environment that's nourishing for everyone. And if it's nourishing for everyone, guess who else it nourishes? This person right here, me. But if it's not, all the pains, the insecurities will turn into I need more substance, I need more status, I need more money to overcompensate from the voids that are deep down inside.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah, it's you're you're speaking to me for sure, man. Um What do you think needs to happen for things to kind of mix in my questions up here? Yeah, I I get my main question is how do how do man kind of turn turn things around um to the to the to the point where it's like, you know, hey, you know, we aren't the bad guys you say we are. Um and I'm just while I'm asking that question, I'm just thinking in the back of my head, like we have these people that we were just talking about pushing this masculinity to, you know, trying to say that they're men and that's what masculinity should be. I mean, and with that on the rise, um I mean however long it takes to die out, um, you know, how do you see men doing that?

SPEAKER_02 21:29

How do we see men being able to discern which type of masculinity to move towards?

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Um, well, that that's a really good question too. But I just I more so I was just thinking, how do men kind of uh I I guess as a group, uh more so kind of turn the tables on how we're being looked at as a group?

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Yeah, great. Love that question. And that even that man, Jordan, that question even in itself brings me chills. And I get chilled. I call them truth bumps. When I'm in the presence of truth in another man, it feels so good in my body. And that's this. I'm naming this because this is what I feel is the way out of this. This childlike behavior that isn't honoring the feminine, it's being so connected to the body to feel where there's truth mirrored back in proximity to other men that are doing work, men that are still connected to the heart, and the heart is leading the head. If we're in proximity to other men where the head's the heart's leading, not the head, we're actually moving in the right direction. And the more men that we have in masses embodying that energy, it will dissolve and dilute that version of man over there. Not because they're bad and wrong, but the mirror and the reflection of another way will be so strong where women are feeling so safe in the presence of it, so inspired, so considered that they're able to heal the trauma that's inside of them, where kids are moving into healthy development and aren't being shut down. If we're creating an environment like that, that will speak for itself. We won't have to talk to prove to prove anything. It'll just be so damn attractive and so nourishing that people will flock towards it. And then the other part will be left with so much space and space and distance where the money, the status doesn't have the same power, doesn't have the same impact that hopefully eventually the mere back of their behavior will finally land in their felt sense of, oh my God, I've run amok. I'm being a bit of an ass. And I've now impacted my own environment now because of a loss of respect. And so to single this out and bring this back home, I really believe if a man is willing to do the inner work, move towards men, where what you said, where like, well, what you're sharing is really landing. If men can move towards men who are doing the work and there's a remembering happening inside, a reconnecting to the heart and wanting to show up with kindness, not softness, you know, and this is where I think a lot of men get confused is I don't want to be a soft man. So there's an attractiveness to, well, he's got money and he's just able to do so much. Because a lot of men are sitting with a collapse or a freeze in their nervous system, and that feels better looking at the manosphere because there is a lot happening that they want, but there's it doesn't have to be that or this. It's not this or that, it's this and that. How do we take the health of that expression of masculinity, but then mature it and attune it to the feminine energy? And to encapsulate this, what I really feel we're talking about here is the energy of leadership. If leadership requires in its healthy expression, if we talk about leadership connected to nature, healthy masculinity, what we're talking about about is a man who is so clear in himself and who he is that he has clarity in the direction that he's going, that the decisions he makes creates an environment that's nourishing for him and the people around him. That's the real life rapport card. Is how in the use of my power and my behaviors, am I nourishing me and the people around me? Or is everyone in the home having a good time when I walk into the room? Do they feel seen? Do they feel respected? Do they feel cared for? Are they given a resource? Am I giving from an overflowing cup? Guess what? If I am amazing, they're gonna share their respect and reverence for me walking into the room. There's my real life report card, one that is hard to deny, defend. Because if the majority of the people in our presence are feeling nourished and good in themselves, now we're reconnected to nature, feminine informing the masculine.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Um, we don't have to get into it today, but like I've had some uh we'll just say like scenarios and things go on with certain relationships and friends uh lately that uh involve some of the things that you're saying, and you're just you're really hitting on a lot of stuff. So that's uh I'm really yeah, again, I'm really enjoying this. Um okay, yeah, man. Um how about let's let's uh let's approach your the question that came out of my question that you brought up. I think you said um uh how will men best be able to, and especially I think it's most significant for young men because it just sets their path. Uh, how can they distinguish um between you know the kind of stuff that I think you and me are pushing uh and and rallying behind and the kind of stuff that you know these influencers the Tates and and these other kind of people are uh are pushing, and which you know which one is truly the best one because the pro I mean uh and again like I did say like some of these people you look at them and you think okay, no one's gonna follow them, but some people, um like Andrew Tate, for instance, they like any con man, right? They make sure to sprinkle in enough truth and razzle dazzle in there to to get you on the hook, right? So, and I feel like he has been very um from what I've seen, from what I've read in you know, articles and stuff, he seems to be one that is very prominent um among young men. So yeah, how are these young men supposed to look at that and you know, maybe look at the other side of the coin, which might be what we're looking at, and and determine, okay, well, which one's the true one um to choose? Um because I feel like you know it could be hard for some guys. I feel like it could be, especially with the with the climate, with the social the social climate.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Yeah, it's gonna be confusing. And the reason for it, I want to speak to the reason why it would be confusing is being in proximity to patriarchal energy is exciting in the moment, yeah. In the moment, in the moment, it's invigorating, and that invigoration can be confused as guidance or can be confused as love or freedom because again, it's stimulus, and I want to really highlight this. If there's a younger man listening, you are biologically designed to prefer stimulus, friction, arousal. But if we don't learn how to contain that primal part of us, we will just follow the savage desires. If we're not in there discerning, is this the best use of my power? Is this a wise direction to go? If we're not in there filtering it, we'll just get swept away by that energy that is so um enticing and contagious, and then we'll be in an environment where, oh no, years later, months or years later, oh no, I don't like who I've become. I've I've now had multiple failed marriages. You know, I think of the high-performing men that usually end up on discovery calls with me. They've made millions, they have status, they have all the things, and they're sitting there feeling completely empty and broken inside because they've destroyed most of their relationships. That's a painful place to end up. And it's confusing for a lot of men because it felt good for a lot of the ride, and it's only later slowly dropping down to see the environment that they created around themselves that's not so nourishing. It's only then, okay, now I'm I'm gonna make a change. So for the men, especially younger men, I want to highlight don't just trust what feels good in the moment, practice being in the art of contemplation and considering do you want to become that? Will that is that the man that you want to be in the world? And to go deeper is spend some time investigating the reality of some of these people's lives, spend some time using AI or Google and start to ask really high-quality questions. Are they in a thriving relationship? Get curious about what their partner says about their experience with them, see if they've had many divorces, see if they've had businesses, what do people say on threads around how they felt treated by that person in certain businesses? Do a little bit of digging so that you inside of yourself can make a proper discerning decision of who you want to become and who you want to be led by, who you want to be informed by. Prime example of this is I was filling my truck up at the gas station a couple days ago, and there was a biker gang. I couldn't read their jackets. It might have been Hell's Angels, but it was evidently a biker gang, probably 50 bikes, and just the whole gas station was rumbling in these leather jackets. There's gas, some of their gas tanks say something kill. They've got things on their back of their uh jackets that are just like the big middle finger. And it's very evident this is a biker gang in the mean business. And I'm gonna be honest, when I drove up, I felt invigorated by all this energy. Like there's like rumbling motors, and there's these tough guys, they've got women on their back and they're smoking cigarettes, and there's some lead guy, and he's talking to so-and-so at the front, and he's talking really like and you do this, and then we do that, and then we're gonna go. And it's just like, whoa. And I'm sitting there filling up my truck, and actually sat in my truck, and I was feeling the energy in my body, and I was like, Oh, I remember this. This is back when I used to be a drug dealer debt collector. This is what I got swept away by. And so I sat there and I just noticed what it was invoking in me, and it's breathing that energy through me, and I was feeling that primal power, and I was letting myself, and then I was remembering, oh, yeah, that's what it's like to be an animal, completely connected to the animal part. I love that part of me because I know how to contain it, I know how to direct it in service to humanity, I know how to connect to my heart and use that primal energy to get shit done, to move through difficult moments and hard conversations, but it's contained. A young man who gets in proximity to that amount of power that doesn't know the containment part yet, we've got a problem. So I want to oversimplify that. Power is mature masculine, like the healthy expression of our power is mature masculinity. It can be remembered by these three C's. Mature masculinity is a man who is clear, has clarity, has capacity, and has containment, the ability to contain his energy. If he can do those three things, we have a man that's going to use his power in a way that is beneficial to others. And that is going to bring him into a really good life because he knows how to move energy, know when to penetrate, and know when to sit back and relax and breathe and listen. And if a man can be in that practice, that simplicity practice of I need to be clear in who I am. I want to be discerning of who I'm taking information and advice from. Do I want the life that they have? And if you're answering yes, okay, go learn what that creates. And my prayer is okay, it's going to create something you feel really inspired by. For me, I I unconsciously chose because of the friction and what felt good. And so I ended up in an environment like the biker gang and wasn't so great, even though it was so exciting. It was like being in the center of an Avengers film. Right. Energy and needing it all the time to feel good. It kills the future self. But being in the practice of, no, no, no, I want to get to know who I am so I know what how I'm directing my energy, that created something different, which is the life I have now, which is I get to support and serve other men of doing this work. Let's help you get clear in who you are. I'll show you what it looks like to be a man with different ingredients that takes responsibility for the role of father and husband, that wants to work through all my shadows and the trauma that still lives in my body so that I can be a model for others. Not by something I say, but by how I live. If a young man can find an environment where that is the culture, he's gonna live a good life.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

I love it, man. I really like that. You uh I feel like I feel like this would be a great way um this would be a great kind of uh extra answer to all some of the questions we've been asking is you know, for men to uh kind of get together in this kind of capacity and just have these kind of discussions, these kind of mature, uh honest and real and deep discussions about uh being yourself and being a man and uh what it means and uh and that kind of thing, I think that would go a long way. Um I feel like I'm sure maybe women do it too, but I think I think men uh when they're around each other, sometimes they act in a way to you know fit in and have the others approve. So, you know, if that if someone is kind of toxic, if you want to put it that way, or just you know, not not walking the proper masculine line, um you would hope that the others would brush up on him and he would change his ways, but I mean it could be the opposite where he brushes up on uh everyone else, and then you know, then you you go from having one of these uh one person acting this way to uh you know a few more, and then they go out and it's kind of like that you know the chain letter kind of thing, right? Um, so yeah, I think I think something like this would be really good because you know you you one guy hears uh his friend, you know, being honest and open and showing how he thinks, and then you know, okay, well I can add to this and this, this, and before you know it, you're kind of you got a nice snowball going and uh you have good dialogue. And I mean, I can't believe like I feel like we've been talking for like 10 minutes and we're almost at 40 minutes, and um it's great, man. Yeah, I think that that's um I think uh I mean, obviously, someone as someone with um you know, so man, so many issues in the past from depression and uh anxiety and addiction and that kind of stuff, um counseling and talking and that kind of therapy is really strong, um, especially depending on who you're you're having it with. So I think for something like this to figure out, you know, well, what does it mean to be a man and how should how should I actually uh be as a man? Not not how maybe a father told me to be or didn't tell me to be, or how maybe I see on TV how it's portrayed or in my favorite movie or whatever, but you know, what feels right and and right for the world and and and right for me and and my soul and that kind of thing. So um yeah, I think that would be really good. Um, I mean, obviously that's kind of what you've turned your um, it sounds like that's kind of uh a bit of what you've turned your life purpose and life goal into doing, right? With your uh with your businesses and your coaching um strategy or not strategies, but your coaching efforts.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Yeah, and you're giving me chills, Jordan, because you're embodying the very thing I'm projecting all over you. But what I'm in the presence of is a man who is really expressing from insight and intuition and inspiration just from a conversation that we're having. And what I want to mirror back is there's so much health in what you are expressing that is beneficial to all men, which is being in proximity to brotherhood. When we're around other men that are doing the work that do have a pulse on how do I want to bring myself into life that I feel good about, that I feel proud of, that is a man really connected to his nature. That's mature masculinity and proximity is power. And this is the very reason I created the initiated man. It's a school community. Is this very reason I've lived in men's circle myself for 10 years, and I've experienced the fruits of being around other men, willing to do their work, willing to be called out, willing to be celebrated, willing to share the vulnerable places. And it's completely changed my life and how I show up as a husband and a father. It's so satisfying, it's so fulfilling. And now I get to have conversations like this with men like you. That is my life's greatest joy because I get to have a conversation with a real human being in the moment who cares, who wants to show up, who wants to bring good to the world and do it in a really effective way. And the wisdom that I heard in you is brotherhood community is needed for that to happen with the most amount of efficiency. And that was a hole that I was seeing in the market, which is why I created the initiated man, is so that men could be a part of the thing that's needed that you described is someone needs to set the culture. Yes. If someone isn't setting the culture, we will meander and express our shadowy expression of ourselves. We will play out what our dad did or said, not that dad's bad or wrong, but if dad's not connected to other men who are also doing the work, guess what? We're just being handed down uh the not the least ideal culture that wasn't structured. And so what I've had to do is spend decades of my life meandering and seeing the negative impacts of all of that, and then moving myself into an environment where someone decided what the culture was because they had been informed by all of their teachers and mentors and brought me into it. Proximity is power, and then I got to experience a new version of myself I hadn't met yet. That was exciting, and I had support, I had guidance and someone to hold the tender parts that are afraid and don't know, and then oh, but he knows, and then he knows and guide me through those places so I can feel what it's like to have what I call good father energy bringing me into masculinity. That is a culture thing. When we are in a culture that is holding us in all our imperfect humanness, we will arrive into the man we're meant to be. But someone's got to set the culture, and for me, that's the initiated man.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Wow, I love that. I love that, man. Props to you, props to you. Um man, I I I have this this bumps going on too, man. Like this has been a I'm so glad that we've we finally met and we've had this conversation. Um I I I wish we had more time, but I hope that this will be the first of many conversations, Mike. Um, I would really like to have you back and tackle some you know more specific topics. I I also um I I enjoy the work of uh Scott Galloway. Are you into Scott Galloway at all?

SPEAKER_01 42:51

No, not not not familiar.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

He just put out a new book.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Write his name down though. Scott, what?

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Scott Galloway. He just put out a new book. Sorry, I I can't find it. Um but it's uh you know about masculinity and being a man and that kind of stuff. He's uh I think he's really big in in tech, uh economics, and uh he's really big with uh masculinity, especially lately with the book. So um I'd love to try to get him on, and like I think that if I can get him on, I'd really like you to join me uh if you'd be up for that, because um I think that would you I think you'd be a really great addition to that conversation. Um but yeah, definitely check it out and uh check out the book. It's I just I recently got it and it's supposed to be really good. Um and it's um I think it's called I think it's called Tales of Being a Man or Rules of Being a Man or something like that. Um and yeah, I'm really excited. So that's why that's another reason why I was really. Really excited to meet you and talk to you because um yeah, I I really want to start learning more about this topic. Um and and yeah, I think it's good to have people that are very knowledgeable, like yourself, um, to kind of have those conversations with. So, like I said, I would love for you to come back. Um, and I'll definitely gonna be in touch in the near future. But before we start wrapping up, I should have I should have asked you this right off the bat. I apologize for not doing so. I I was kind of just a little excited, but can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, uh, you know, you your different ventures and your podcast and and all that stuff. I know you you were bringing it up a little bit there, but please um let everyone know about it because uh I think it's really important stuff. And uh now that we've met and we've spoken, um, yeah, I really respect what you say. And um yeah, so I think that uh I have no problem kind of getting behind you and and promoting what you do. Uh let's just put it that way. So please uh let everyone know about uh about your works, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Yeah, thanks, Jordan.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Getting chills again. I love just the the easefulness of our conversation and the resonance of the conversation. Because for me, the thing that excites me the most is that's always really valuable for people tuning in and listening, is when there's resonance in the room, proximity's power, and I know this will poke and provoke and inspire certain ingredients. So if you're listening to this, that's my prayer. Is this poked and provoked and inspired something in you? And if it did, and there's a resonance, you know, the initiated man. Uh, I think you can maybe add links after. We can put the link in the description. Yeah, or you go, or you go into the school community and just type in the initiated man, and you'll find my school community in there. That's a super, it's my lowest entry offer, and I really encourage any man that feels that pull and that call that wants to be a part of a culture to bring you into the most mature version of yourself. I very intentionally created the culture in that room for that to happen. So if you're interested, you can go check me out there.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Uh, is this? I think this is you. It's uh are you it's mikeelliot.com?

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Okay, cool. Let's pull that up real quick for people to see. Can they find everything uh at that website as well? Are there links there?

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Uh so that one, that's if anyone felt the poll to do one-to-one work. That's just that'll pop on a discovery call.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

But uh if you I'll just pop up the private chat if you want. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Uh, I will uh I'll make sure to include the links uh in the episode descriptions as well for those people who are watching after the fact.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Uh okay, so if I just put it okay right there. Yeah, cool. So that's the one that just gives people who uh if they want to get a bit more information on it, that's that.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

And if you're just super stoked and you're just ready to go in and you don't need to read that page, then this is just the direct link to the school school community.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

And I just put in the chat. And there's a little video that you can watch there and then uh pop in there.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

And what's cool about it is there's only 15 members in there. I launched it a month ago, a month and a half ago. So we it's really new and fresh, and that's there's three calls in there. So men that join, there's already content uh that they can uh take a look at. There's past live recordings to really feel the men that are in there, and you know, men are already being brought to tears in what they're experiencing there. So I highly encourage. Nice thing about it, it's monthly, so it's super low risk. You want to leave, you just leave after a month.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Yeah, and I'm seeing here that uh you got this a free seven-day trial. Yes, or step in, yeah. Seven that's what that means, right? Seven days, that's right.

unknown 48:18

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

I hope I didn't read that wrong. Cool, so that's always nice. Um, but yeah, man, I'm definitely gonna be taking a look at this because this is uh this is great stuff, man.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Yeah, I'm actually glad you pointed that out. So we just shifted today, and I actually have to update that link. The seven-day free parts gone just because of confidentiality reasons, because we do go vulnerable in there. It's the the just a little bit of a protection gate of only paid members go in and see the past live calls because there are things that are being said. That's a good call. That's a great call. Yeah, that are leading to healing and people exposing vulnerable things. So we want to make sure it's serious men or who are willing to do the work that can hold that safety because that's where the magic happens. So unfortunately, it did change where it's paid right out the gate, but after a month, you know, and if if anyone was really dissatisfied, you just message me, I'll give you your 97 bucks back. It's I'm fine with it.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Fair enough. Fair enough. I mean, yeah, you gotta do what you gotta do, and um yeah, that that that that's a good call because uh yeah, I'm sure you you have a lot of um uh yeah, like you said, a lot of private stuff, vulnerable stuff, and um, yeah, you don't want that uh you don't want people just jumping in just for the sake of like uh you know something really silly like trolling or something like that. You don't want to donate garbage like that. So that's cool. That's cool. And what about uh you also have a podcast though as well, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Yeah, we have a podcast called The Sacred We, and that's specifically where Courtney and I go into lots of discussions about our relationship, the principles that we live by in our own life, and that's for people often who've done a lot of work already, and or it doesn't have to be, but often that's who we attract, and we're we're giving you deep uh principles to live by that live that lead to living a thriving relationship and family.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Right, that's awesome. And um, is she your partner or is she your like um friend or business partner or oh yeah, no, she's my partner, she's my beloved, uh mother of my child.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

I have a son beautiful. That's awesome, and so we support couples two to two, and so the I'm only sharing this not to confuse you. You know, if you feel the pull, go to the initiated man. But the this the podcast is something to go investigate, just like we talked about today. Go investigate me, go dig, don't go get like look for my dirt. I am human, it exists, and this isn't just information I read in a book. There's a lot of men out there who are single talking about relationship and the feminine, it's like, but they're not in relationship with a woman, and so I live it, I breathe it, I practice it every single day while raising a son, the next generation. And so my hope is you can feel that there's a depth here. There's uh not to sell or pitch you, but I want you to be discerning of who you learn from, who you're mentored by. It's super important because it shapes the man you'll become.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

You just you just I thought of one other question before we wrap up. Um, because you mentioned, you know, taking advice. I think you mentioned, you know, taking advice from people who don't actually have relationships with women and that kind of stuff. What are your thoughts on just kind of going back to some of these influencers? Um, if you're familiar with uh Nick Fuentes, um he he definitely speaks uh about women and relationships and men a lot. Um, and he seems to try to be grappling at uh young men and and and men. Um but he's he's been on record, is um, I think even as early the last time I heard him say it was on Piers Morgan uh around Christmas time. He said he's never had sex, which is fine, he's Christian, but he also doesn't have seem to have uh much of a track record having relationships with women. Um, but he on the other hand, he has seems to have a track record um, you know, having relationships with men, um trans men, uh what what's the uh kitty, um I don't know, like guy, you know, guys who dress up like cats and that kind of stuff. Weird relationships like that, which you know, you you do what you do, but um but but he you know he's also on the other hand, he's he's he's going so far to say uh things that even Andrew Tate I've seen him say things like uh it's it's gay to have sex with a woman and that kind of thing. And it's like they're just trying to like it's they clearly hate women so much that they're trying to distort this so much, you know, that they're making it not so much about bringing the man up, but just putting the woman down. Um so what are your thoughts? I guess my question really is what are your kind of thoughts on, you know, we we spoke about Andrew Tate and all that. I mean, but he's he's had a past of running camgirl businesses, he's had all these uh lawsuits and charges with uh reference to uh rape and sexual trafficking and all that stuff. Uh he you know he's he's always bragging about how he's having sex with women and stuff. So but on on the hand here with Nick Fuentes and some of these other people, they're either, you know, sometimes they're somewhat openly gay or just you know, like like you mentioned before, they don't have um, and you can still have relationships with with women if you're gay, obviously, but but uh you know, men that just don't have these these these uh more romantic and and and bonding relationships with women, but they're trying to uh lead men as if they do.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Yeah, patriarchy exactly patriarchy, it's masculine energy disconnected from nature. If if a man isn't embracing, and there's the physiological uh I'm gonna speak to that piece, but I also mean it emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, if a man is not inside of a woman and learning what gets invoked in him in that level of enmeshment of that level, uh, that level of intimacy and learning what that pokes and provokes in him and what she needs to open and want to be penetrated by him. If a man isn't in that lived experience, he's disembodied. I can't give you advice about the feminine if I'm not intimately relating with the feminine. That is patriarchy. It's an idea in the head that feels really good to have. This is, you know, the version of this is men who read tons of books, really successful in business, but their relationships are all falling apart. That is just masculine energy that's disembodied. All the energy is up here, it's up really high, it's not in the body, it's up high and it's in vision and it's all this feels good, and it's in the friction, it's in the stimulus. But that's just disembodiment. The real report card, again, remember is am I creating an environment that's nourishing for me and the people around me? If women aren't being related with, attuned to, respected, revered, the report card's gonna be pretty clear. It's gonna lead to women putting in reports of being raped and all the things. It's just such a disembodied masculine energy. And so we need to look at the real life report card of how is this energy going about being in the world? If it's not creating a nourishing environment, well, that's a danger. That is an under-resourced man, which is a disconnected man, and he's running amok. This is called acting out. Developmental trauma is all it is, and it's childlike behavior running amok with a lot of power and it's hurting a lot of people. If we don't see it for that, we won't be able to bring boundary to it so that it can't run amok. The tricky thing is when men have a lot of money, status, and power, they can run amok because power money creates a lot of choice and decision, and then people will want to follow it and be swept away by it. And then, oh no. Now a whole bunch of people being hurt. It takes a lot of strength and power to stand up to that childlike behavior and say, that's enough. That's enough. That's not helpful. It's not helpful for you, it's not helpful for everyone else. That behavior needs to stop. This is warrior work. This is when we go into the movie 300. It's the warriors versus the soldiers, it's the men who do their work, refine the medium of brotherhood to get strong enough to navigate their own insecurities, doubts, fears, but learn to listen to the feminine. Learn to listen what she says and stand up for up, stand up for the kingdom, stand up for the families. And if that isn't happening, we've missed the mark is masculinity. That's what we're here for. It's not self-interest, it's for service.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Damn man. Well, Mike Elliott, ladies and gentlemen, uh, this was awesome, man. Um, I'm really glad uh to have met you. Uh, I'm really happy that we did this, and I really hope we can do it again. Uh, but before you go, cool, let's do it again. Before you go, though, uh, please, one more time, let everyone know where they can find you.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Yeah, so you know, we gave you the links. Uh, if you're feeling the poll and you're a man, you want to join the group, come join the group. Experience this, don't just let this be another idea. Move into the embodiment, step into the circle, start to feel what it's like to be in proximity of men doing their work. And I'd love to see you in there if that's you.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Right on, man. Well, um, I'll definitely be in touch. Uh, it was a pleasure to meet you and uh wishing you all the best, my friend. Um, we'll talk to you soon, okay?

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Thanks, Jordan. Such an honor having this conversation. Appreciate you and everyone listening.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

Yeah, man. I appreciate you too. I I really enjoyed this. Um, I actually uh I uh obviously we really were resonating, I think. Um, I think this is the first time that I've ever uh associated myself with addiction on the show, and I did so, I just felt like we were jamming, and um, yeah, man, we're keeping it real, and uh I appreciate that. So um, yeah, wishing you're all the best, man. And I'm again, I'm glad that we got to meet.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Yeah, me too, Jordan. Give me chills.

SPEAKER_02 59:17

Nice job expressing that part because that for me inspires so many other men to embody that level of vulnerability that is inspiring for others, you know, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

And I think it just goes into what we were saying before, where you know, you throw you kind of throw some something out there and the other person sees it and they they can gain the courage to to throw out a bit more, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:41

So, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Cool, amen.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

And and the and the message goes to you too, Jordan, just so you know, trust your process. This isn't trying to pitch or sell you, but if you feel the pull and uh we have our next call this Saturday, just so you know.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

Okay, cool. I'll keep that in mind. Um, and I'll be in touch soon, my friend. One way or the other. Awesome, Jordan.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

All the best, brother. Yeah, okay, guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

That was an awesome show. Um, Mike Elliott. Uh, I'll make sure to put the links in the description. Make sure to check it out. Um, yeah, I think that's uh that's about it for now. We will have a show tomorrow, uh, probably around 7 p.m. Eastern. We will have Hadsburg Jolly West back in the house along with Adam from the Truth Desk. We're going to be covering some news articles, uh, what's going on in the world and uh whatever is new going on. So make sure to be there if you want to participate, throw some stories in there, throw some questions in there. Uh yeah, also make sure to check out the Scott Horton Academy. Go to Scott Horton Academy.com slash divulgence um because you get a nice little discount. And again, I highly recommend the Lifetime membership. Uh, it's a little bit more, but you get the discount, and uh it just makes more sense to me because you're gonna get uh unlimited content through the uh lifetime of the school, so yeah. Um, other than that, uh we are still trying to get up to 1,000 subscribers on um YouTube. So make sure to please subscribe. Um, we are also giving away a brand new iPad with a case. All you gotta do is subscribe, send the screenshot to divulgence mail at gmail.com, and any referral subs that you get get you five bonus entries, and that that person also gets entered. Um, yeah, and we have some runner up prizes as well, probably some books, maybe some uh criterion collection Stanley Kubrick movies or something cool like that. Um, but yeah, make sure to subscribe. Also, subscribe on YouTube, follow us on Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcasts. And yeah, please uh I think we're definitely dealing with some uh um manipulation of the algorithms and stuff, and maybe shadow banning and that kind of thing. My sub numbers are messed up. Um, yeah, it's really uh it's really screwing with me. So please give some thumbs up, give some comments to help with the algorithms. Make sure you're subscribed. If you have more than one YouTube account, please subscribe. You can enter the contest as many times as you want. Um, yeah, anything you can do. Five star on Spotify, Apple, nice comment. Anything you could leave would be much appreciated. And uh yeah, uh also big shout out to everyone in the chat, in the audience. I hope you enjoyed the show. We're gonna have a lot more good stuff coming forward um uh near the end of the summer, and we're gonna keep things rolling through the summer uh to keep you guys entertained. Um, lots going on right now, though, so it won't be as jam packed as as usual, but uh near the end of the summer, we're definitely going to be picking things up again. Um, but I just appreciate everyone's support and um yeah, just sending my love to you guys. All the best, be well, and take care.