On the Couch With Richard Morrow (Lowell Resources): Talking Gold and Gold Stocks

Welcome to the latest episode of On the Couch with Henry Jennings from Marcus Today.

In this episode, Henry is joined by his old friend Richard Morrow from Lowell Resources Trust (ASX: LRT). They discuss all things gold – why he still likes the sector and which stocks he recommends.

Richard is the former Chair of the Melbourne Mining Club and a director of LRT.

A great look at the gold sector from a guru in the space.

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Disclaimer
This podcast is general information only and does not consider your personal circumstances. It is not personal financial advice.

Transcript

Welcome And Why WA Booms

Speaker 0:01

Well, welcome to our latest episode of On the Couch with myself Henry Jennings from Marcus Today. And today I'm delighted to be joined by an old friend of mine. We go back a long time now. 36 years, I think we've been friends, 35, 36 years. It's quite scary. Richard Morrow, who is a director of Lowell Resource Trust and very much my gold guru. , he's been in the business for a long time, and he is my go-to expert on the gold sector. And I know he's got some really interesting things to say. , he's just been to a conference over in Western Australia, which is always revs up the juices, I guess, and gets things flowing in terms of the little grey cell. So I'm really looking forward to chatting to Richard today. , thank you so much for coming on the show, Richard. I'm delighted to have you here again.

Speaker 2 0:48

Well, great to be on the couch again, Henry. And you're looking in very good shape, mate. So I'm I I hope I'm I'm coming across as well the same thing. And you're absolutely right about Western Australia. I mean, they they are absolutely steaming at the moment. You know, the the the money that's been made, the the opportunities that have been created. I mean, the big the big thing there is is gold, 7,200 Aussie dollars an ounce. it just it just leaves so much margin there for for profits or you know, to fund further expiration. I mean, it's just incredible how how and and that's turned on a dime. You know, a year ago gold was an unwanted pet rock, you know.

Speaker 1:33

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:35

Yeah.

General Advice Disclaimer

Why Gold Is Surging Now

Speaker 1:35

Yeah, it's everyone's favorite, isn't it? But just before we kick off to the real meat and bones of our podcast, just the disclaimer, as always, this is general advice only, so please do your own research, contact your own financial advisor regarding any of the thoughts and ideas in this podcast. Let's talk gold, shall we, Richard? Because we we we love talking. I know you love talking gold. You you are you're an expert on the gold sector, and I know you're an expert, especially on Victorian gold fields. And my wife, who's been writing a book about Victorian gold fields, I know has tapped your brain more than once in terms of you know what happened in Ballarat, Bendigo, etc. So, so where are we with gold? I mean, it's 7200 bucks in Aussie dollar terms, $5,100 in US dollar terms. Are all the drivers of a solid gold price still intact, or should we be looking at it going, you know what? This is a bit of a bubble and it it has no relationship to reality.

Speaker 2 2:34

Well, unfortunately the answer to that is yes, with the the all the drivers are still there. The m the big biggest driver of all is the the amount of debt that's acc ulating around the world, especially government debt. the US you know where its debt position is more than 100% of its GDP, , you know, th the the acc ulated debt is you know nearly 40 trillion dollars. I mean that's that's just pretty soon.

Speaker 3:05

Pretty soon we're talking big money, aren't we?

Speaker 2 3:07

That's right. A trillion here, a trillion there, next thing you know. Yeah. But yeah, that's the biggest driver in the world. And like like when when you you're issuing debt like confetti, and you know, they're running a deficit of close to two trillion dollars a year, would you believe? That it's adding to the pile of debt over in the US. And , you know, one of the things that Tr p campaigned on was a more responsible economic management and and maybe reducing spending. now it just hasn't happened, and you know, he's being diverted by wanting to bomb a few places and and start a few arg ents, and you know it's it's it's just you know it may have started off in a in a fashion of more to have a bit more attention to improving the balance sheet over there, but it's not panning out that way. And I think that's the biggest driver at the end of the day, you know, the the balance sheet of the Americ of America, and if you like, so then that that impacts on the value of the US dollar is is deteriorating. whereas gold, you know, there's we only produces about about 2% more gold than than the and at the moment, you know, they're printing US dollars substantially, you know, creating two trillion new dollars every year just to fund the fund government. So in that respect, gold is is is standing up on its own.

Debt Matters More Than Rates

Speaker 4:36

It's it's amazing, isn't it? I remember those halcyon days. Remember those days when when the the doge people went into Elon Musk's crack team went into to cut US expenses and all that sort of stuff, and people were sacked and you know, and they pulled out of different programs for aid across the world to save money. And and here we are a year later, and we've got an excursion into Iran which must be costing an absolute fortune, and then they're gonna have to replace all the musician munitions that they have. Musicians, god, they don't have to replace the musicians, the munitions that that they're they're using in the in the Gulf. So it's getting interesting. And I guess to chuck into the mix as well, , into the gold story, there's gold has rallied on on the potential, I guess, for rate cuts in the US. Donald Tr p, even last night, was saying, you know, Jerome Powell late again should be cutting rates instantly, not waiting till next week. , whereas, you know, we've got central banks in Australia, the central bank here, the RBA, and I'm still riddle me this one, Batman. I'm still concerned, you know, we're talking about our rates going up because inflation's going down, and Donald Tr p's calling for rates to go down. And we've got a new Fed head coming in. What what where do you see the rates in respect to gold? Is is that driver coming to an end, or is that still out there?

Central Banks And Reserve Risk

Speaker 2 6:07

I I'm I'm my belief, and this is personal, is that it's more about the quant of the debt there, because the further you go in go into debt, and it even if it's America, you know, the the n ber one economy in the world, the further it goes into debt, the more it degrades its currency. And and you know, the the you know, my one of my great heroes, Rick Rawl, at from the Sprout Organization, , as his n ber one gold guru in the world, as he's prone to say all the time that gold is the US dollar has lost you know 99% of its of its buying power compared to gold since the 1970s, the Bretton Woods decision in that time. And that's that's it. I mean, if you you know, and it's it's just appealing to a lot of people, and a lot of investors, a lot of central banks as well. that the why should I hold these US dollars and they keep deteriorating and the buying power keeps being eroded by inflation? Why should I hold them? I need something else. you know, and I think what gold is one of the one of those sort of assets that that can be substituted in there for for for that. So , yeah, that's the that's the the main the main feature there. Also, I think this Tr p's done a couple of really aggressive things, unfriendly things to he other countries, Russia, by just you know, taking their assets at in US dollars and and and and so that that's actually raised a whole lot of questions. I mean I might have the you know a country might ask itself or a central bank might ask itself, I've got all this I've got all these US dollars as reserves, but hang on, someone over in America can push a button and and suddenly they disappear. so you can't do that with gold. And if you've got your gold sitting in your own strong room in your own central bank, there it's it's there and it's can be called upon at the right time. Whereas if you've got US dollars on a on a computer screen somewhere, bang, suddenly they're not there. Or bonds, US bonds, you know, you own US bonds, you're a foreign country, you fall out of favor with the administration, suddenly, bang, you know, they they get cancelled or or or or given to someone else.

Speaker 8:29

Now now one thing I did notice when we're talking gold and central banks is the National Bank of Poland. Not that we talk about the National Bank of Poland very often, but I think it's worth touching on this. that they have, according to, I've just looked up on AI, which is my constant companion these days, they they hold approximately 550 to 570 tonnes of gold. they have been big, big buyers of gold. Now I I did see reports, and who knows what's correct these days because there's fake news all over the place, and we are in the first AI war to some extent, but I did see some report that the Bank of the National Bank of Poland, , the NBP was considering well there was some talk of selling some of their gold holdings to pay for increased defence expenditure. Have you have you seen that report at all?

Speaker 2 9:24

Yes, I've read those reports and yeah, but I mean but you're an old trader. I mean, the last thing you'd ever do before you went and sold something was telling one you're gonna sell it. having said I suspect it's already been sold, but but that's what gold is is that these days. I mean, it's a it's a it's a it's an asset that that it must be part of your your your economic plan and your budgeting for it for central banks and for and for countries. And yes, if you if you bought it a while ago, yeah, 20 years ago, $200 an ounce, , and you had some need for the for for that and you didn't want to borrow anything, bang, it's a it it it it that's what it's achieved its purpose, and you pat yourself on the back and say how clever you are in in backing the zlotti with your with gold bars.

Speaker 10:14

Are they zlotti still or then they do zlotti or euros in Poland? I'm not sure. We've lost the zloty. Oh we can't lose the zlotti, surely not. Oh next thing we'll be losing the dong.

Speaker 2 10:26

That's it.

Lowell Trust Returns And Discount

Perth Conference And Funding Wave

Speaker 10:27

We don't want to lose the dong or the zlotti. The last thing you want to do is lose the last thing you want to do is lose your dong. That's that's that's that's very much true. Now, you're a director of Lowell Resource Fund, and I've been backing and behind that one in our small cap portfolio for some time, and we've done very well. how's it all going there? I I look at the the NAV last or this Wednesday, and it's come off a little bit, but you're still trading at a big discount. I scratch my head, Richard. That's sure. That's LICs and LITs on the on the ASX trade at at discounts, unfortunately. And I'm not not a hundred percent sure. Some sometimes like two years ago we went to a premi , which was so I tend so you know, you probably understandably I don't tend to look at that too much, but the the the value of the of the fund, the net asset values up 134% over the last year. That was at end February. it's probably given a little bit back now, but over over two years are up 55%. So it's been a great little performer, and I think it's testament to the the strength of the the Aussie mining and exploration sector that you know we you know they keep creating value opportunities there. And you know, we've got 82 holdings inside the the fund, and yeah, there's there's some there that have you know that have done well. I mean, but that's our game. We're in the business of looking for companies that'll give us 10 times our money, a 10 bagger, as they say, and they they they do come home, and you a few of those a year will will make up for a lot of problems in in ones that haven't performed so well. So yeah, we've had a good run and we're a trust, so we even pay a distribution at the end of the year, , as most trusts are are forced to these days. So that's so we're looking forward to that coming with the June year end. Well, we've certainly done very well in the small cap portfolio, and that's we're up around 126% since we bought it. So that that's always nice when mirroring your performance, which is which is terrific. Now let's let's talk stock specifically. You've been in WA, you're all revved up, you're all barred up. I can see that by the smile on your face. You're all revved up from your from your trip out there.

Speaker 2 12:49

Oh, well, it's it's it's a mining investor's paradise over there. You you you know, if you're feeling a bit gl over in the eastern states, you get on a plane and go to Perth. I mean, I went to a three-day conference run by some good mates of mine, the Resource Information Unit, R A. Yeah, they're in fact there's one coming up in in Sydney in May. You know, there's three three days of of presentations, 105 speakers. It almost did my head in, but it's it's it's sort of a one-stop shop where you can go and not only put your finger on the pulse of the of the industry itself, but just listen to bring yourself up to speed with because there's so much going on over there. expiration spendings at at true great levels, not record levels, but really good levels. But there's been a heck of a lot of money that's been successfully raised over the last seven months out of the equity market to really refill the the tank, if you like, and and fund these expiration projects and plans mainly in WA. They seem to be like being in there, but also you know, a bit of money is trickling into Victoria, and we've we've had our our successes here as well. , you know, we've had two billion dollar companies created in us in Victoria out of Victorian assets over the last 12 months, which is you know, it's we we we're and we're we're the slow end of the the Australian gold industry.

Speaker 14:18

It's it is remarkable. I I guess we're talking about Southern Southern Gold.

Speaker 2 14:22

Southern Cross and Alkane.

Speaker 14:24

Alkane as well, yes, very much so. So, you know, two great success stories. certainly I've been following Southern Cross for some time. You put me onto that one a long time ago. So that one has done very well. We've certainly written that one up a n ber of times in the newsletter. as far as you know, it's it's fair to say, isn't it? Let's let's let's face it, it's fair to say there has been a considerable amount of underinvestment in the resource sector by by mining companies, and and and that's partly why we're seeing you know copper prices going particularly well, , why we're seeing you know all commodities going pretty well, because we haven't seen that investment. I guess shareholders are a little bit wary or had been in the past.

Speaker 2 15:11

You know, it's it's boards of directors. I mean, they all got beaten up so badly by the institutions for overinvesting during the last last China mining boom you know that ended in about about 10 years ago, 10 or 12 years ago now. And they really they're carrying the scars from that, and they they they don't want to necessarily rush rush into things. , and of course, that's led to underinvestment here. and a but also you've got very high energy prices in Australia, very high taxes, , and and labor laws are just extraordinarily toughened up under this new government, and it's it's led to a reluctance. I mean, BHP, for example, you know, they're they're they're not they're not they're not investing in Australia at the moment, but they're they are looking in in North America, they're putting some money into phosphate down there, and of course they're chasing copper all around the world, but particularly in in the in South America and say places like Chile and and Peru and even over the border there in Argentina, which you know only a couple of years ago was a basket case. but that so yeah, I mean there's you know it's it's not an attractive to a place to invest for the for the bigger ones, but that just actually leaves the field open for for smaller companies, and there's been some great ones created here and new life you know breathed into into old mining centers like Broken Hill. , you know, that's really come back to life, especially with the silver price. it's helping us here in Victoria. And , but yeah, the the the the the anti-mining sentiment is strong in in Canberra, despite the you know the mining industry tearing the country on its back, you know.

Producers Gaining From Higher Grades

Speaker 17:02

But anyway, that's just life. That is just life. You are the the former chair of the Melbourne Mining Club as well. a fantastic position that you held for many a long year and devoted a lot of time to that. I know. Let's let's drop in, shall we? Let's go it's a bit more stock specific. Are there any , you know, are there any gold explorers, producers out there that you're looking at and going, you know what, these guys, this is this is an opportunity coming up on the horizon. What where where should we be looking at the moment now? We've got a bit of disruption going on in the world. where should we be looking?

Speaker 2 17:36

Yeah, you know, we with the usual caveats of people should be be be consulting their own financial advisor on these things, but I think there's some really good production stories coming up in from existing operations from just putting a higher grade of of gold through gold plants, particularly in in Western Australia. you know, this 7200 Aussie an ounce, it's it it is just like manna from heaven. And and and and companies, some companies are going the other way and putting lot a lot more of lower grade ore through their operations, but there's companies like Romelius, one of the bigger gold producers over there, is putting you know they they they started a they took over a company called Spartan last year, and this this is this has gold at a grade of around about seven grams a ton, putting it through a an existing mill about 150 Ks away, where the you know, we're displacing ore that's grading only about a bit over two per two grams a ton. So you get that uplift for of more than three times from two grams to seven grams, it gives you a natural higher production rate that is you're selling at a higher price. So the company themselves are saying they're going to they're currently producing about 200,000 ounces a year. they're they're saying they're going to take that to close to 500,000 ounces a year at the higher price. So to me that's a bit of a no-brainer, and you know the people that are running it very, very professional, long-term, very respectable people, and you know just I think that one j ps off the page. I I think we'll also see takeovers mergers, more of them pop up in the in the coming years. it's a company called Vault that again that's that's focused on the king of the hills, they have these romantic names, don't they?

Speaker 19:44

For I thought the best one the other day I saw was the Lounge Lizard project. Oh yeah. That was that was a cracker. That was that was a cracker. I love that one.

Speaker 2 19:54

Yeah, the geologists fight amongst themselves over who gets naming right from these things. Some of the weird names you've got to ask themselves, what do these people do on their days off?

Speaker 20:04

You know, I know what they do. Interesting, when you talked about the Spartan thing with Remelius, I I noticed the other day that the former Spartan team, Craig Jones and some of his other team have left to go to Talk Metals, which had a bit of a run on the back of that. TOR was the was the stock code there. So that one could be interesting as well. there's a couple of them.

Speaker 2 20:29

and the they've also there's another couple of other ones where the the you know other members of the team are popped up. And this is this is actually one of the keys thematics that we work on at Lowell for our investment in in picking a a junior company is have these people been successful in the past? And you know, you you'd be you'd be absolutely amazed at how how often successful geologists do it again and again. And there's well-known mind finders, , you'd you'd call them. And I think that's a very good investment strategy to to to follow. And in fact, the the former managing director of of Spartan, Simon Lawson, was one of the key speakers at this conference. And gee, I'll tell you what, he almost got a standing ovation there in his in his presentation about where he he is going to be contributing to Romelius' expiration plans, , just not just the production, you know.

Speaker 21:31

Am I right in saying Romelius has got them at Philomies? that's some I'm thinking of somebody else's.

Speaker 2 21:39

That's Regis, yeah. And I think they're trying to get that through the the green roadblock or cut the green tape and the red tape and the black tape and whatever off it and try it again.

Explorer Valuations And Restart Risks

Speaker 21:51

so what other ones should we be looking at? I noticed when you talk about MA activities, one of my old stocks that I follow, Emerson ERM, which Rob builds.

Algos Headlines And Sudden Volatility

Speaker 2 22:05

I I Rob very kindly took me on a mine tour many years ago in the Northern Territory to to to see their their their projects that they were looking at they were looking for elephants copper gold elephants in in the Northern Territory it was a fascinating week looking in in Alice and above there was fantastic time I have to say what other stocks out there you think or this one yeah could be a little bit more well in the Northern Territory there it you know that that that lift in the gold Aussie dollar gold price I mean like you know there there's a couple of old mines near Pine Creek there they shut down when gold was 300 Aussie an ounce you know a couple of decades ago and now you know they're the the owners of those are having a really close a close look at re reopening and one it's one of them is a big company called Agniko Eagle but also just wrote from it is I think PC gold now I I I haven't really formed a view on whether that's a a good buy or not but it's a it's a damn good story that that that you know that it was a mine that was operating at at $300 dollars an hour so just breaking even and now you know it should you know if if it could be restarted profitably then you know the the margin there would do it would should support a a gold operation yeah but that and that actually clues into why some shares don't go up is that you know the PC gold at one time it it it did produce gold but the plant you know when they shut up shut it down and it they remove the plant so you've got to build a new one so there's there's a a gap there of say 18 months to so even three years to rebuilding these things and you think well that's where boards get a bit bit nervous they think well what if we what what if we hit this the the go button now what's the gold price going to be in in three years time so that that's sort of tempering a bit of the excitement about some of the potential gold restarts out there it is a conundr isn't it i mean we all get carried away with explorers when the gold price is going absolutely bananas but as you say it's kind of hard to predict where the gold price is going to be in three years' time it is impossible it is impossible anyone who tells you they can is a liar you know yeah I I can yeah apart from you of course apart from me but yeah and you obviously but yeah it it is a conundr isn't it i you know we we get all excited about these explorers and you think you know what this is these guys are five years ten years away from actually producing anything how how can you possibly value what's in the ground based on what's happening on the spot price of a commodity it's it's a bit of an anathema really i don't want to I don't want to prick the the bubble of the explorers because that's your bread and butter but it it always always you know interests me I guess but that's that's the danger in there in in in the game and the risk in the game it's very very high risk of course but you know if if you get it right I mean the the multiples that can be made on on investment there I mean that there's root there should be room in just about every portfolio for for a bit of risk but but you can unfortunately be like me and be be be what way overweight gold explorers and yeah can come back to bite you yeah well I I you know I guess it works both ways doesn't it because you know when when we see the gold price drop a hundred bucks everyone panics about the explorers and sells them all off and you think well what what difference does it make what the spot price is today because we're we're we're looking five ten years out of what that company's worth obviously it helps on the financing and all the different feasibility studies etc what the spot price is and they've got to raise the money to do it but you know it selling you know an explorer down 20% because the gold price drops a hundred bucks for a project that's going to be not on stream for 10 years again seems a bit suboptimal I guess. Yeah look most most of the pain gets dished out in in the big end of town I mean yeah you know today for example the in on Friday we're seeing the biggest gold stock in in here Northern Star down substantially A on the gold price being a bit softer but also because they've they've come out with a slightly negative report about their their their their immediate term results and and other other things that are happening so yes there there's a big impact the the you know of results and you know it people pay way too much attention to those and then even so you've got these computer trading systems these days that analyze headlines and overanalyse things and and and you know they they they cause disproportionate movements in things but then again that just provides an opportunity for someone on the other side of the trade it does and you know you do get the feeling sometimes that these algo programs are just searching for for stop losses yeah absolutely and then the cascading effect that we see from these stop losses you know and sometimes I'm not saying northern stars going to be one of them but sometimes you know we do get an equal and opposite bounce or or fall the following day after a big move one day but certainly there's certainly a a lot of that you know but they but then computers you know they they look for certain buzzwords. I I'm told this I I don't know this for certain but they look for certain buzzwords in in company announcements and whereas you know it it might take you know a nanosecond for a computer to see the the the offending word they're looking for yeah but a an analyst might might take you know a a couple of hours to read it thoroughly and then think about it and you know a couple of hours to to come back with a with with a you know thoughtful response and think you know that's that quite often happens as well.

Ten Bagger Candidates And People Risk

Mining Tech Services And Cash Gushers

Speaker 28:24

It does doesn't it and I've you you see it time and time again the the volatility that we've seen I mean reporting season you know I thought last August reporting season was volatile but you know we set we seem to knock the lights out and hit record highs of volatility during this last reporting season in February it was absolutely crackers in fact it was actually a pretty good reporting season I have to say you know that the resources did very well banks did very well the market hit an all-time high and then of course we've had this excursion which has caused all sorts of eruptions looking back at the gold sector is is there one I'm putting you on the spot here my friend but is there is there one standout stock here that you think this is this is this could be a 10 bag the timeline you know it's obviously not tomorrow but in in the next couple of years is there another Southern cross southern gold or another alkane out there that you think yeah this this this really I think there's probably I I could mention three three yeah three and and you it shouldn't surprise you to know that they're in the the lower fund but the Astral Resources gold producer AAR is is the code they're not a producer sorry they're in in pre-production they're in a very advanced stage of evaluation of whether to build the build a mine or not centered just south of of Kalgurli right position right commodity run by tremendous people who've been successful in in other previous companies that that that's one of in fact that's the largest holding of the Lowell fund wow excuse me for talking our book here no it talk away talk away that's what we're here for and there's a company called satin resources not satin satin resources stn for Nelly they've got a very very large gold resource in the ground very low grade and they're they're doing some that you know these those two companies are very close to taking a decision maybe a positive decision on to turning those deposits into fully fledged mines now if that happens you know and the gold price stays around here we should get our you know five to ten times uplift in the price the risk of course in that is what the gold price does between now and then and of course are are there any things that we we don't see in out of left field you know like you know the the the processing plant doesn't start up effectively but one of the great things in gold is that they're very very reliable gold production plans and these days and they they don't really tend to they tend to they tend to work well whenever you turn them on although one of the one of the issues with King of the Hills mine four or five years ago was that when they started it up it you know it it had a few glitches wasn't working as planned and some of the ore was that was coming into it wasn't as homogenous and they had to keep tweaking it but that's that's the game you're in these days you know with the stock at five dollars it's not it's not such a as a problem as it was then no yeah so that's two I have a third one but I've forgotten it what we'll see that's right senior moment yeah that's right absolutely well you can tell by the you know the great the lack of hair yeah well we've got Astral and we've got satin resources so those are certainly two to keep an eye on and of course we've got the the lower resource trust which gives you that exposure to to 82 and and you know you guys are experts do you you must spend a lot of time with boots on the ground going and and seeing what's going on with these I guess going to conferences like you did in in Perth really helps but I'm sure you get up close and personal especially with management being so important as you say people you're backing people aren't you you're backing guys that have done this before yep or people of that have been trained up by yeah and you know and and certainly mind visits are a great part of our out of our learning process and our research and so but the the the ASX reporting requirements there are very very interesting you know every quarter you companies need to update and if and if they've got any time sensitive information they've got to announce it as and when they've got it so it's it's pretty you know robust I mean and and then you know you've got the overlay of putting the experience of the you know our management team there there's four of us over that are geologists and our metallurgists and things like that the that that really but it it does get down to the people that you you you're trusting with your money and and and and if it if it comes off I mean we've got that's the other thing is I don't think people appreciate we've got such a a great we we're the best mining industry in the world in in Australia and and Australians occupy you know senior roles in in the biggest mining companies in on on the planet and we've you know we've got such a great history of of developing and innovation you know ways of extracting metals from from rock i mean there's it's a fascinating business and as you can tell i i get a little bit excited about it you you do you do and and and and as you should as you should i have to say you know on in the same vein i i was lucky enough to present last year at iMark and it's just it's it's it's an amazing conference because you know part of it is obviously companies and they have their booths and they you know chat away and they do their presentations but the other half of it is or more than half of it is the big machines the the technology that's going into this and and you know just the the smart and the AI technology that's driving the mining industry is is astonishing. You know and it's our it's our biggest industry and yet you know I I'm staggered that more people like you know don't get don't get more enthusiastic about it. It's it is the backbone of Australia and it is the the the business that's that propels our economy.

Taxes Royalties And Final Thoughts

Speaker 2 34:57

Well i marks on again this year of course in late October in Sydney and you know it's not just the the big machines there if you if you go down the diagonal alley sort of part of the with all the magicians and all the other the Harry Potters you know pet pet petrol heads you know yeah or per or propeller heads you the the s the the the gizmos and the gas gadgets and and the the the invention the innovation it's it's you know it's it's fascinating stuff and in fact one of the the the great industries that's also you know is aligned with it are mining services and there's not as many as many as those listed as there's used to be I mean a lot of them have been snapped up by private equity firms and things like that but you know the drilling companies you know there's only a couple of them left out there now there used to be a lot more but there's there I mean the industry has never been as cashed up as it is at the moment never been as profitable as it is at the moment and you know it it and it you know it's the people who sold the picks and shovels to the miners in the old gold rushes that that often made out well so it's it can be you know something to people should be looking at it it's certainly when you look at you know when you look at the results that came out not just in February for the miners because as you say they have to report quarterly so we sort of go January early yeah the the cash piles that these miners have got it it is is quite astonishing in places you know they're just throwing off cash you know they they've got all in sustaining costs of 2700 Aussie and it's 7200 at the moment and it and it doesn't have to spike to 7500 it just has to stay there for for longer and the cash just keeps piling up that's that's it and of course they're paying their taxes so 30% of the profit goes to Canberra and states all get royalties on the on on the on their revenues so you know there's a lot of winners out of this and and let's let's hope it continues for some for some time to come well on that note I know that Lowell Resource Trust has been has been a big winner out of this and congratulations on your performance you've you've absolutely killed it and I've been happy to go along for the ride as well that's what friends are for so thank you mate it's been an absolute delight to have you on again and thanks for having me on mate it's always great to talk my favorite subject goal I mean I could talk for hours here but I know I know you could we'll have to do it over lunch it's probably probably better over red wine because then you leave you you've taught for days yeah absolutely looking forward to catching up with you thanks Richard thanks for take 10 minutes cheers