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On the Couch
On the Couch with Jon Pilcher (Neuren): DAYBUE, Europe and What Comes Next
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In this episode of On the Couch, Henry Jennings speaks with Jon Pilcher, CEO of Neuren Pharmaceuticals (ASX: NEU), on his fourth appearance on the podcast.
They cover the European regulatory setback, strong US sales momentum, and what the phase three trial for Neuren's second drug candidate means for the company's outlook.
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Welcome And The Neuren Setup
Speaker 1Welcome to another episode of On the Couch with myself Henry Jennings from Marcus Today. And today I'm delighted to be joined once again. This is uh an encore appearance uh from Jon Pilcher from Neuren Pharmaceuticals. And and John is a or has been a frequent guest on this podcast. I think this is your fourth uh appearance here, John. So um I don't know, it's scary, isn't it? So it's um it's good to have you back on. John, of course, has been uh well he's been with Neuren since August 2013 as CFO and CEO since May 2020. And I know you've got a special birthday coming up as well, John. So shout out for your special birthday coming up. Well done. Uh and happy. I've told everyone I've I've let the cat out of the bag. We can we can finish the podcast now because we've we've talked about the important things. But uh uh John, of course, has been at the helm of Neuren for some time now, and uh it's it's been an on-again, off again relationship, I guess, with the market in terms of whether uh Neuren is uh in in favour or out of favour, and I guess we're gonna touch on that. So welcome, John. Looking forward to chatting today and getting the progress on uh on what's happening with Deboo and um also the new drug NNZ2591. So welcome again.
Speaker 4Excellent, thanks, Henry.
Speaker 1And yeah, it's great to be talking to you once again. We could do the whole Keith Richard thing, couldn't we? Uh it's great to be here, it's great to be anywhere. Uh so that that's certainly something. But as usual, with all the information contained in this podcast, is general advice only. So please do your own research. Contact your own financial advisor regarding any of the thoughts, ideas, or insights in this podcast.
Why The Market Still Doubts
Speaker 1Now, John, I'm going to go straight to the heart of the matter uh here. I I know Rudy and his team of uh the IR people at Monsoon have prepared some fantastic questions, and I've had a fair uh go at some fantastic questions. But I guess let's start off with with the biggie. The market is still failing to give you credit for what you've achieved. And you know, this nearly, what is it, nearly 7% of your stock is shorted. What what's the market got in their head that they are completely and utterly missing with the Neuren story?
Speaker 4So, like I wouldn't say they've consistently failed to recognise what we've done because you know they recognise it at times, yeah. They do, don't they? You know, we've been 24 back down to 10, back to 20, back to 10, back to 20, back to 30. You know, that that that's been the pattern. And I think partly that's a reflection of what the market's like at the moment, sadly. Um so much momentum trading, and um rather than sort of active looking at the looking at the value long term. Um I think the other thing is you know, you tend to get punished overly for things that don't meet your expectations. So we've recently got heavily, heavily punished. I'm sure we're gonna talk about it for debut not getting approved in Europe. Um, but the reality is we've been punished miles beyond the actual value if you if you properly value what that's worth to us. So I think you know there's so much sentiment involved in here, and I think uh, you know, through all of those ups and downs, we've had to focus on what we're trying to do in the long term, which is you know, this big value uplift from 2591 to layer on top of the debut value and the fact that that gives you the your your backstop if you know your insurance policy against going for that big value uplift. We've just had to focus on that and um you know get get through the the ups and downs.
Speaker 1It is uh it is funny, isn't it?
Europe Rejects Daybue For Now
Speaker 1Because the market did really take that European news um not very well to say the least. Um run me through what uh what that news was for uh for um Neuren.
Speaker 4Sure. So look, um Davy's been on the market for three years now in the US and been incredibly successful. And again, love to talk about that in a minute. The recent KDR update was you know really, really exciting. Um so this was their their first move for a um sort of an approved product in another market. Now just I'll just sort of caveat that by saying they are already supplying to other places in under name patient programs, which are small volume programs in places like the Middle East, um uh South America, and and in fact, Europe. So there are sales outside the US, but this was the this was the big push into the European market, and in fact, Acadia already set up the commercial infrastructure to to launch the drug in Germany because Acadia had never been into Europe before, so this was their big move into Europe, and of course, um you know the the trial that we got approved for in the US was positive, so it's not like you you know you go in there with a failed trial or or anything, so you know we had had high hopes, but but Europe turned it down. And um that's not necessarily the end of the story because uh McCaders requested a re-examination, which you can do under the European system. And um and quite importantly, when when when Europe does these reviews, they appoint two people, one from each one from two different countries, to to do the review, and and you know they produce their recommendation, which in this case was negative. When they do this re-examination, they they remove those two people and get two new people in. So it's new minds, new um views looking at um the reason why it was turned down. And then at the end there's a committee that votes on it, and you have to have a majority of the committee being in favour. So that process is happening at the moment. Um Acadia's requested the re-examination, they've submitted their grounds, and now um the regulators review it all, and they have sixty days to produce their new opinion. So that will be it should come at the end of June.
Speaker 1Right. Oh well that's that's good. That's that's not that far away, really.
Speaker 4No, it's not, no, it's a relatively quick process. Right. And look, of course, of course everyone says, Well, what's you know, what's the chances of this being overturned? And so important to important to explain that. So um, you know, historically the precedent for things things getting overturned is about 20 to 30 percent. So it's not 50-50, it's it's less than that, 20 to 30 percent. Now I um I obviously think we should have a better chance than that. I I think it's a lousy decision. There's a rec community in Europe, have no, have nothing. This was a this was a positive trial. Um, we've got three years of real-world experience, there's a thousand patients on it in the US. Katie's collected all the data of what's what what they've seen and uh from an efficacy side and what's happened from the side effects side. You know, that that that should be more important than the clinical trial that was run years ago. Yeah. Sort of esoteric endpoints, but unfortunately the regulators are focused on that clinical trial and struggling to understand the clinical meaningfulness of it.
Speaker 1And and the um the drug Deboo, which is the one that they uh license off you and pay you the royalties for, um that's to treat a very it's a rare um disease, and it wrecks
What Rett Syndrome Treatment Changes
Speaker 1syndrome. Correct. Yeah, correct. Just just run us through what that what that means for parents that have got kids with this syndrome and and and how um Debu can change their lives.
Speaker 4Oh, yeah, look, so it's I mean it's it's devastating. It's uh fortunately it's not a sort of progressive degenerating disease that you know will result in death. There are sadly the death rate is higher than normal, but it's not like that. But it is a lifelong burden, I guess, for the patients and their families. So, you know, you have it from birth through a genetic um abnormality, and it affects everything because the connections between the brain cells don't form properly, so ev everything in your body pretty much. So um, you know, communication, hand use, sort of gross motor abilities, um cognitive ability, sleep, um swallowing, g GI problems, you know, everything. So it's just devastating. Um and as I said, you know, they've got no no approved treatments. So Davy was the first ever approved treatment for Rhett syndrome in the US. It was a proud moment for us. So obviously that's what we think should be happening in Europe as well. So um, and Acadia's got huge incentive to do whatever they can to try and get this overturned, but as I said, have to say objectively, 20 to 30 percent is the historical precedent, and we've been slammed so much for it. I certainly don't want us to get slammed again if it's negative. So I so I I view from where we are at the moment, it's massive upside for us if if it gets overturned, but we'll see by the end of June.
Speaker 1Sure. Uh and and in comparison to the US market, I mean how many people could benefit in Europe compared to uh to how many people are currently benefiting in the US?
Speaker 4Yeah, so that the total number of patients is is probably similar, perhaps slightly bigger, even. So there's about 6,000 in the US. There's there's probably a little bit more than that in Europe, but of course they're they're scattered among many countries, and whilst you get pan-European approval, you know, typically you'll launch in Germany first and then other Western European countries, um, so it's sort of a slower build. Um and typically the price you get in Europe historically has not been as good as the price you get in the US. So I think overall economically it's probably not quite as big as the US, but it's still very meaningful. And for us, I mean we we will get a 15 million US dollar milestone payment if if the first commercial sale after approval happens, and um and then we get royalties sort of mid-teens to low 20%. So it will will have a decent impact on us. Um but as I said, you know, there's nothing baked into that in our current value, so it will be upside if it happens.
Daybue Sales Surge And Sticks
Speaker 1Now, uh John, it's fair to say that um Q1 2026 debut sales, they hit um what was it, uh 20% growth, strongest growth in over a year, 101 million US dollars. Why is why are we seeing that um that pickup in growth? And I guess uh is it sustainable or is it gonna just keep on going?
Speaker 4Yeah, that we're we're really excited about that. I mean Nicada's guidance for the year is 460 to 490 million, so that shows you it is expected to keep going. That's that's like uh between 19 and 25% growth on last year. Um so one factor in this is the launch of a new form of debut called debut sticks, which is a powder formulation. So you might remember the original debut is a liquid, so it's bottles of liquid that you measure you know your dose out of. Um sticks is a is a sachets of powder, right? Which you can then dissolve in anything to take it. So this there's a lot of advantages to it. For a start, the liquid has to be refrigerated, which which is difficult when you're traveling. Uh whereas the powder obviously sachets is very easy to transport. Um you can it means you know the the liquid has a particular taste, a particular volume, uh, whereas with the powder you can dissolve it in whatever your child you know will drink. So that's a that's another advantage, and also the the liquid had to have uh colour and preservative, and it also has sugar in it, which you know some families don't like. So again, for all those reasons, stick has got a lot of advantages, but we didn't really know till it was launched, and and and um you know I should say it's Acadia that's developed this formulation, until they launched it. We didn't really know how big an impact it was going to have. So they launched it on a limited basis in Q1 only in centres of excellence. So again, quick recap on the ret market, there's centres of excellence, and then there's the rest of the country, and there's a and there's about two-thirds of the patients in the rest of the country, about a third in the centres of excellence, but they you know they know everything about RET syndrome. So so the idea was to launch it just in those centres of excellence first to gauge the reaction, and then in April, so in the second quarter, they launched it more broadly in the whole country. So um the first quarter, you know, 250 um prescriptions to new patients with sticks. Um and about a third of those were patients who've never tried Debbie before or patients who've discontinued before. And about two-thirds were people switching from the liquid. So the really exciting thing is the is the one-third of new patients and patients who've previously discontinued. Um so yeah, uh it's it's a fantastic start, but it's only the it's only the start on a small scale, and we hopefully from Q2 onwards we'll see the bigger impact of it. Um and and you know, Katie has guided to in 2028 $700 million of sales. So again, Sticks will play a big part in that. So so they've you know they've guided to continuing very strong growth from here on, which obviously is fantastic for us. And you know, th th three years in there's still so much potential just in the US.
Speaker 1This this is obviously a very expensive treatment for the these families. Who who's paying for this? Is this the US insurance companies or is the or is this just families doing whatever they can to get some sort of relief from this uh horrible disease?
Speaker 4No, it's it's it would be very unusual for family to be paying for it. So I think about two-thirds of the patients would be covered under Medicaid. Right. So non Medicare, but Medicaid, which is the state-based system that covers kids. Yeah. And the most of the remainder would be in private health plans. Right. So so yeah, and it's very broadly covered and has been from day one, really.
Speaker 1I I when you say that um you know this sticks has been uh formulated and and developed by Arcadia, does that affect you as far as the royalty stream goes? Because they've they've fiddled around with it and made it into a powder. Does that affect anything in terms of the revenue that you guys get, taking into account what they've spent rejigging the formula to some extent?
Speaker 4Yeah, no, no, it doesn't. It's it's exactly the same economics and and the economics to them is the same, that you know, the price is the the same. Um it's essentially the same drug, so they haven't fiddled around with the drug. No. They fiddle around with the the the the sort of the media it comes in, sure, or the form it comes in, that's all.
Speaker 1Yeah. Uh so looking at um, you know, the US is going well, Europe question mark there. What else has been happening with uh with uh with
Japan Trial And Global Path
Speaker 1Deboo and Nurin going forward?
Speaker 4Yeah, so Japan's Japan's the next came off the rank, and um, yeah, had some good news in that quarterly update as well. That so so in Japan they have to run just a small clinical trial in a Japanese population so that the regulator can have comfort that the the drugs don't perform differently in in Japanese people. That's that's the idea of it. So so it is an efficacy study, but you don't have to show statistical significance. Um, it's just a small study, 24 people. Um, it's the same endpoints as the original trial. An Acadia's um accelerated the timeline for that, the enrollment's been very good, so they've now brought forward the results of that to the I think it's September to November uh timescale this year, and that should allow them to file in uh a marketing application next year for Japan, which again very attractive market, and in our economics we get 15 to 1.5 million US dollars on the first commercial sale after approval, and again we get mid-teens to low 20% royalties. And in Japan, there's sort of somewhere between one and two thousand patients, but it's a bit it's like the US, they're all concentrated in one market. There's a few KOLs who are uh you know, few key physicians who see them, one regulator, so it's much much easier than Europe. And so that's that's that's very exciting. We think Japan could be could be very lucrative.
Speaker 1So any plans for uh for any other rollouts in Asia, China perhaps?
Speaker 4So uh I I think with China um they don't have the orphan drug sort of environment and legislation that gives you the sort of protection against generics that you need. Um so until that's in place, I don't think so. As I mentioned, they're doing these name patient programs in in a number of places around the world, and those will continue. The number of patients is growing all the time, so that's and that's factoring into the revenue that we get and the royalties we get. So I think you know that that will continue. Um and uh but really you know, Japan and if they can overturn Europe are the big targets.
Speaker 1So day boom
NNZ-2591 Phase Three Begins
Speaker 1is not the only drug that you have. Um we've got uh NNZ 2591 as well coming. What what's the status there at the moment in that uh in those trials and bringing that to market?
Speaker 4So so with that one, remember we're we're trying to develop it for multiple indications, which which gives you uh a lot of advantages because you only have to so much you have to do to develop a drug for one indication, it's not just the clinical trial, it's all sorts of stuff, manufacturing, all sorts of other stuff. And of course, if you can do multiple indications, you only have to do that once, and the others all leverage off that. So that's the that's the beauty of trying to do that. So our first you know, the lead indication is philon at Dermot syndrome, and we've just started the phase three trial, so the final trial for that one, and then behind that we've got Pitt Hopkins syndrome and HIE brain injury and newborns, which are following on behind, and then we have some other opportunities behind that which we are which we're not prioritizing at the moment because we're focusing all our I guess our manpower and and dollars on um on those three indications. But by far the most important thing, and probably the most important thing for the company is the Philomet Dermot syndrome phase three trial.
Speaker 1Right. Um and uh what's the sort of timeline on that?
Speaker 4So um what what I've said to everyone is I think that the benchmark you can have is the is what Acadia did with RET. Very similar trial, very similar numbers of patients. Uh they needed 180, we're looking for 160. And they took two years from start to results, so that means 18 months to enroll the patients, and then we go through the three months treatment, and then you get to the results. So if we were to match that, that would mean results right at the end of next year. Right. So we're we're too early to be to formally guide when it's gonna fall, but that's that's I think is the benchmark for everyone that that that that's out there.
Speaker 1So we still got to be a little bit patient then, I guess, in terms of that one.
Speaker 4We have as usual with drug development, and obviously, you know, it's uh that's the game, there's massive reward at the end of it, but you have to be patient to to get there. But but I think you know, I've been saying to investors for a long time the beauty of what we've got is that is that you've got debut. So you don't have this long fallow period of nothing happening. We've got debut producing all this revenue and sticks and Japan and so on. So yeah. So I think we're in a pretty good we're in as good a situation as you can be chasing that big that big outcome.
Speaker 1And at what stage do you, you know, in in the trial, do you do some sort of partnership and uh uh and uh are you in a better position than you were in terms of um the Acadia um deal to do some sort of deal?
Speaker 4Yeah, I mean comprehensively different. And in fact, you might recall we did we did two Acadia deals, and even they were comprehensively different. So the first one was done at the end of phase two, and the second one, which was for outside the US, was done um after the drug was past phase three and was approved in the US. And we got a hundred million dollars, US dollars up front in that one, whereas we got ten million in the original one, and we got higher royalties. So you can just see the the power of different positions, and part of it is competitive, you know, competitive situation. And part of it is just you know, you've removed the risk, you've the investments not there anymore, and it's closer to revenue. So the closer something is to revenue, the more people are going to be in interested, and and you know, the the more competition you have. So I think you know the sweet spot really you know, we think is is after the phase three results because then you know you're perhaps you're a year away from revenue um and the risk is gone. You've got the regulatory risk, but not the clinical risk. Now, anything can
Partnership Timing And Deal Leverage
Speaker 4happen in the meantime, but that's that's you know our thinking at the moment.
Speaker 1Now, just as an aside, John, uh you know, AI is taking over the world. Um and you know, the the hype around the use of AI in terms of you know pharmaceutical companies, drug companies, etc., um, has been touted as one of the the major things that's gonna create some some stunning breakthroughs um for drug companies. Is that something that you're seeing, using, or or thinking that you know these guys are right, it is going to produce these major outcomes that uh we haven't even considered yet?
Speaker 4So so like we we use it to some extent, but um I wouldn't say it has a big impact. I think you know, I I think there's a possibility that it can speed things up. I mean one of the One of the challenges of drug development obviously is that everything takes so long. Um so I do think it has this possibility to speed things up a bit. But a lot of the I think a lot of the thinking about how it's gonna have a massive difference is you know, back at the start in drug discovery and you know being able to dramatically change that. We're not in that of course, you know, we're in the business of running running clinical trials and getting regulatory approval and it can have some impact in that, but I don't think it's necessarily groundbreaking. And I think for me, I actually I really want people to have original thought to be honest. I yeah, I I I see a bit of a danger with AI that you know you're it's telling you what other people have done in the past, really. It's not yeah, you know, so sometimes, particularly in the challenging things we're working in, you need some original thought and creativity. Yeah. Um, so I'm not saying it doesn't have a place, but I I I'm certainly not one to think you're gonna be relying on AI.
Speaker 1Yeah. Um you guys, you guys got a pile of cash.
unknownYep.
Speaker 1What is it nearly 300 million bucks? Uh and you're generating all these royalties every year and doing
AI Promise And Limits
Speaker 1a buyback at the same time. Is there anything else on the radar that you're looking at in terms of the use of this cash? Obviously, you've got to fund the phase three trials. Um and um, you know, it's always good to have cash as a biotech because you don't have to keep going to the market and diluting your uh your existing shareholders, which is fantastic. But is there anything else you look around and go, you know what? We could do something with this. We could, you know, we could add another layer to the to the story beyond debut, beyond uh 2591. Is is is that something that pops up on your radar from time to time?
Speaker 4Yes, it yes, it does, and you you're quite right. I mean, I do think it's a great position to be in, as I said, to have these two parts to the bit to the business, and you're right not to have to raise capital. We haven't raised capital since 2021, and to be able to fund what we want to do is is incredibly powerful. But in an ideal world, it absolutely we'd have a third string to our bow. Um and so we are eyes open on that. Um but we're very picky because of what we've got, you know, it's gotta it's gotta be very compelling. So um, but absolutely I'd love to be able to bring something else in that augments what we're doing and adds further value. So that's that is a possibility.
Speaker 1Now um one of the questions that um that that Rudy and his team came up with was concerning HIE. They called it the sleeping giant. Um, I'm not even gonna have a go at pronouncing it, I'll leave that to you. But uh it affects newborns in um in ICUs. Uh this is uh potentially another commercial opportunity for you. Is is that a big market? I I'd I'd like to think it's not um from a from a tragedy point of view, but um is that something that you're looking at as well as another kicker higher?
Speaker 4Yes, so look, it's um and this is important, it is still still counts as an orphan indication.
Cash, Buyback, And A Third Asset
Speaker 4Right. So that tells you it's not massive, but it is um it is like our others, it's not ultra rare, it's you know, there's thousands of patients. But the thing that's different, I guess, is you know, with all the genetic disorders, you've got a certain population you know from birth, and there are there are a few added every year. HA is quite different, you know, there's thousands every sadly every year. So in the US we think there's about six thousand who could be targeted for treatment every year. So you've got another six thousand happening the next year, another six thousand happening the year after. Yeah. Now, if if we were talking about a chronic treatment for life, which is what our other indications are, then obviously that would be enormous. At the moment, we don't think we're likely to get approval as a chronic treatment. It's more likely to be, you know, could we treat for a year? And in that case, you've got six thousand in one year and you've got another six thousand the next year, and another six thousand the next year, but it's a different six thousand each time. Right. Which which makes it similar to RET. I mean, that's if if that's right. Now, if we could treat for two years, it's double that, obviously. But all of that is still to be discussed with FDA. But um has some other advantages. I mean, you don't have to go out and genetically test um to find patients. Patients aren't going to be misdiagnosed with other things, they're in ICUs, in hospital, you know where they are. There's big hospitals in the US that see many, many, many. So I think from a accessing patients point of view, it's m much more attractive than the others. So I think you know that would suggest you can get a much bigger percentage of of them onto treatment than with the genetic. So that's that's why it's um so attractive, I think.
Speaker 1Fair enough. Now, I guess you know that we we see lots of stuff in the press about the Trump administration and the FDA and Robert Kennedy Jr., etc. And it's I guess it's been pretty much precedent at the moment with um with some of the issues that CSL is happening in the US. Are you seeing the FDA as as harder to deal with or easier to deal with? What have you seen any noticeable changes in the last year or two with the FDA?
Speaker 4Um yeah, I would say it is it is harder. I mean, they've um as you know, they had a lot of staff cut. Um and
HIE Brain Injury Opportunity
Speaker 4so I think we've certainly seen cases where they don't have the administrative support that they used to have. So instead of face-to-face meetings, it's now virtual meetings or or not meetings at all. I mean, and we we had and and I complained about this at the time publicly, but um, you know, we had two meetings, one on Pit Hopkins, one on HIE, where we didn't get an interactive meeting, they just gave us written responses, which you know they're they're entitled to do, but it's just really unhelpful when you when you're trying in these challenging conditions where you're trying to debate the best way forward, you don't get a chance to do that. And I don't think that would have happened if I hadn't, you know, been struggling for resources. So that's yeah, it does make it more challenging. And I guess the other aspect is you know, uh change at the top and churn at the top, you know, they're they make big statements about things, but d does it actually get followed through in the organisation, not necessarily. And so, and again, rare disease. It's very important because it's all in negotiation, it's not it's not by the book, and so it's important that all of that does get applied consistently through the agency. And I think they're probably struggling with that at the moment. Now, having said that, it's you know, you just have to deal with that and you find a way, find a way through it. And and you know, ret ret was a different time in the FDA, but again, we had a you know path through the FDA with many meetings and found our way through, so we have to do the same with the others.
Speaker 1I guess you've got to deal the hands you're given. So there's no point in trying to change the FDA. Uh just um just finally, you know, here we are. This is our fourth conversation, and loving it. It's great. And I know a lot of people that uh listen to the past three have followed the ups and downs of Neuren over the years and uh have done very well out of the stock, as we have. What does it look like? Let's roll forward uh two years. What does Neuren look like in two years' time if if we do our our fifth? You could be our you know, you could be our most popular uh podcast uh with uh you know number five if we rolled forward two years. What does Neuren look like then?
Speaker 4Well, I'd I'd love to be talking then because I really hope you know if we if we achieve We will, we will. Yeah, we're if we achieve what we're setting out to do, then it would be a massive moment. So um most importantly the filament dermitt syndrome trial, you know, hopefully success. Hopefully we've set ourselves up for success there. Um and then uh potentially what the the outcome from that, and let me come come back to that. But but there's so many other things though. Um hopefully we'll be in trials in Pit Hopkins and
FDA Friction And Regulatory Reality
Speaker 4HIE. We'll have seen the debut sticks, the full power of what that can do in the US, and there's so much, you know, that there's still two-thirds of the market in the US that hasn't had the drug today. So so you could see a big impact over the next two years there. Um hopefully to have got approval in Japan, and then obviously the the beautiful upside would be if they can overturn in Europe. So there's all of that I think will play out in that period. So um if we're sitting in two years' time, all that has happened, it will be an incredible outcome. Um and then of course, well what what happens for two five nine on commercially and then and you know, do we partner? Do we engage in some form of MA or or the sort of the the the option B, do we s set ourselves up to be able to commercialise that ourselves, knowing that with orphan drugs you don't need a big organization or sales force. It's not our strategy today, but we are certainly looking at that so we know what it would take. Because I think you have to have that as an alternative if you're going to be negotiating with people for M ⁇ A or partnering. So yeah, all the I I would hope in two years' time, you know, it we'll have had an outcome from that. So it would be um yeah, it would be amazing.
Speaker 1It it's interesting, isn't it? We we're constantly in seeing in the press, you know, big farmers and big drug companies doing takeovers and and filling, you know, um you know, slots in their dance card, if you like, in terms of of uh what what's missing in their uh menu. Is that something that um yeah, obviously you're always thinking about maybe there's someone out there lurking? Do you think there is potentially someone out there lurking? You've got 300 million in cash, 1.6 billion dollar market cap, you know, that that's a relatively small bite for someone uh looking for that royalty stream that you're getting from debut and then the upside from uh NNZ 2591.
Speaker 4Yeah, so look, there's all there's always been people interested in 2591. And I mean we we talk to people all the time, and you know, we'll go to conferences,
Two-Year Vision And Takeover Talk
Speaker 4Jeff, JP Morgan, Jefferson will talk to companies all the time. Um so yes, now that the the the royalty stream will be attractive to some and not to others, but if it's not attractive, they can just sell the royalty stream, so that doesn't matter really. Sure. Um so yeah, look, there are interested parties. It just as I said, the sweet spot for us and probably the point where you get the biggest interest is going to be after that phase three result. Sure. Um but as I said, you know, we it doesn't mean we don't talk to people in the meantime, we absolutely do.
Speaker 1Excellent. John, it's been delightful as always talking to you. This is our fourth outing, um, and congratulations, happy birthday for um for in a short while's time. It's um Thank you. I'm sure you'll celebrate in the appropriate fashion. But thank you once again, it's been great, and I I think as always, it's been highly informative in terms of the outlook for Neuren and uh what's coming ahead. So I'm looking forward to catching up in we won't leave it two years, we'll we'll leave it a year or so, but um it'll be great to catch up then. So good luck and uh thanks again for coming on the show.
Speaker 4Brilliant. Thanks a lot, Henry. Cheers.