On the Couch
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On the Couch
On the Couch with Dr Liz Dallimore (Argenica): Phase Two, FDA and What's Ahead
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In this episode of On the Couch, Henry Jennings speaks with Dr Liz Dallimore, CEO of Argenica Therapeutics (ASX: AGN).
Fresh from presenting phase two trial data at a major international stroke conference, Liz walks through what the results showed, why neuroprotection is such a difficult space, and what the path forward looks like for the company.
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Welcome And Who Argenica Is
SPEAKER_02Well, welcome to another episode of On the Couch with myself Henry Jennings from Marcus Today. And today I'm delighted to be joined by Dr. Liz Dalymore from uh Argenica, uh, which is a biotech company. Argenica, is that the the right pronunciation, Liz?
SPEAKER_00That is correct, Argenica. Well done.
SPEAKER_02Excellent. Well, that's that's that's one thing crossed off the list of uh potential stuff up. So uh Liz has been the uh the CEO since March 2021. And you guys haven't been listed for that long, have you? Only since June 2021. So um the IPO then, so you're a relatively newcomer to the biotech listed scene, I guess, in Australia. Uh is that fair to say?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think so. Yeah, so we're sort of uh just over five years in of IPO land, um, but obviously uh the huge amount of work that's gone into at least our lead drug asset um before that, whilst it was at the university.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you've had uh 25 years' experience in biotech management consulting in the UK and Australia, senior roles at PWC, Ernst and Young, KMPG, uh KPMG rather. Uh you're massively uh qualified here. You've got more letters after your name than anybody I think I've ever interviewed. It's extraordinary.
SPEAKER_00I like staying at university.
The Brain Injury Problem To Solve
SPEAKER_02That's uh I think it's a great thing. It's a fantastic thing. Anyway, uh before we kick off and talk about uh our Jennifer and uh the the path forward, because I know you've had got some exciting news from a recent conference. You've also had an announcement out this morning as well, uh, which we'll get to talk about. Uh so welcome, thank you. Uh and as always, uh, this is general advice only, so please do your own research. Contact your own financial advisor regarding any of the thoughts, ideas, or insights that we chatted about. So, Liz, hope you don't mind me calling you Liz. Um, what does Argenica do? What's what's the problem in uh in medicine and diseases that you guys are trying to solve?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks Henry, and thanks um for having me today. I really appreciate the opportunity to share the Argenica story with your listeners. Um, yeah, so look, we are a clinical stage drug development company. We're focused on um acute brain injury indications. So predominantly looking at acute ischemic stroke and traumatic brain injury, they're sort of the two main indications that we're really sort of pushing into that clinical development phase. Um, so if I kind of touch on why we're focused on those areas, so currently there are no drugs on the market that can protect the brain after these acute brain injuries. So if I'm talking about an ischemic stroke, this is a stroke caused by a blood clot in a blood vessel in the brain. Um, that essentially, when you as soon as you get that blood clot, it stops uh blood flow to that part of the brain, and that causes the brain to sort of I guess overcompensate. It starts releasing a neurotransmitter called glutamate and this is what is essentially causing brain cells to start dying. We see a really similar process following traumatic brain injury, both sort of the more severe TBIs, if you think of you know a serious hit to the brain, say through a motor vehicle accident or like a kin hit, you get that same acute response, that glutamate spike in the brain, which essentially, once you get that glutamate spike, it it causes calcium to start flooding into brain cells and starts causing this brain injury. So our drug is really focused on targeting that acute phase of that brain injury, stopping or moderating that calcium influx to essentially protect those brain cells and keep them viable while that patient um is able to get to the hospital and receive treatments that they need to address the underlying cause of the injury.
SPEAKER_02Now we're very lucky here, Liz, because you've recently presented um Sean Con.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Is that like Comic Con?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, something to 0007 and uh wasn't my idea, by the way, but uh yes, I like it.
SPEAKER_02ARG 007, it does have a certain ring to it, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00It does.
SPEAKER_02Are you M?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No one's ever asked me that, but I'll take it absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Well, you you could be. Um so um you've recently presented to the uh this conference uh with some uh phase two trial data, and we uh luckily at Marcus Today and in this podcast are the first people you've really talked to since that. So it's kind of a a bit of an exclusive, which I'm really grateful to have from you guys. So talk us through those phase two results that we saw um from ESOC 2026 or or the SeanCon trial.
Phase Two Stroke Data At ESOC
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we were um really fortunate to be offered both an oral presentation for our phase two data as well as um a poster presentation for the um brainomics AI analysis as well. So uh we had Professor Graham Hanke, who was our national coordinating PI for the trial, present on the outcomes of the phase two clinical trial. So this is a scientific conference, essentially, it's one of the biggest stroke conferences that is is on essentially the stroke conference calendar per year. So the a lot of the leading stroke clinicians will be at that conference and essentially it's presenting the latest clinical trial data coming out from the field of stroke. So uh it was exciting to be able to present our phase two data. I think you know, it's there was a lot of sort of positivity. It's neuroprotection is difficult, right? So we've had a number of um challenges and failures, but um, you know, the thing that came out, so we're seeing, you know, we had a pre-specified subgroup where we saw a trend in reduction in infarct volume in this slow collateral group, you know, having the opportunity to present that data to a room full of clinicians where you know they're confirming with us that clinically and scientifically that group is where we want a neuroprotection drug to play, and it makes mechanistic sense that that's where a neuroprotection drug would work. So being able to present those results to a room of clinicians that intimately understand not only the biology of stroke but also the kind of clinical care and really where we need a neuroprotection drug to play was good to have that validation. Um, and then in the Brainomics poster, we were within the best poster category. So uh the conference organizers acknowledged that this is a pretty significant piece of research and and a really exciting outcome from this clinical trial. So that was fantastic to be able to then present that brainomics data as well. Again, you know, having having the ability to use AI, unfortunately, we knew that this could be an absolute game changer in our trial. Unfortunately, when we started the trial, um Australian hospitals did not have access to that technology. So we'd actually engage Brainomics at the beginning of the trial. Um, with this in mind, we did a research collaboration knowing that we we thought that we could actually get some some really useful data out of that AI. So um, you know, and when we sort of interestingly presented the data in terms of the SKU in more severe patients in our treatment group, when we started, you know, presenting the data to say there was a a discrepancy in the way that the sites, you know, were recording the stroke severity at baseline, you know, these are the things that clinicians are really interested in as well because it really impacts their clinical trials that they're running as well as future sort of standard of care and how we embed these therapies within that that kind of clinical care process for stroke.
SPEAKER_02So the European Stroke Organization conference, ESOC, um in the Netherlands, how how big is that? Do you get you know hundreds of people there, thousands of people there?
SPEAKER_00Is it huge? So yeah, so there's um obviously a number of parallel sessions that are going on. Um so we were in a very large auditorium. Um, they have you know, the keynotes will be in a um an absolutely huge room. They'll have you know two screens at the front, but the room's so big you can't even see those screens. So, you know, two massive screens halfway down. So, yeah, this is a this is a big conference. This is, you know, there's also the opportunity, all the the big guys are there, the J and J's, the big pharma companies of the world, um, the bayers that are really sort of focused on stroke. So um a big sort of exhibition hall as well with those those pharma companies and people presenting sort of new uh technologies and and therapies around stroke. So it's great to all come together um and to be able to uh discuss you know our results and and you know meet up again with our clinical advisors and um yeah, well so it was it was fantastic and I think a real buzz around our data and and sort of progressing into the phase two B trial, which is great.
SPEAKER_02Pretty big uh pretty big um setting, I guess, for for what you know you're not the world's biggest biotech company by any stretch of the imagination, so it's um pretty pretty prestigious conference to uh to be presenting at and obviously lots of great networking there. Um some of the notes that uh young Rudy has sent me that you know he's talking about um stroke neuroprotections failed in over a thousand clinical trials. Oh so obviously there is some skepticism around this. What why is your drug uh RG007 um licensed to cure? Um why is um why is yours the the kind of one of the leading contenders to solve this problem?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think you know we we definitely don't shy away from the fact that you know stroke neuroprotection has previously been termed essentially the graveyard of drug development. Um we do have so Professor Jeff Donan, who is on our clinical advisory committee, um, who is a you know absolute superstar in uh clinical stroke care uh based in Melbourne. It was actually one of his grad students that wrote this paper. So, you know, we um we hold him to account. And it was really looking at the failures of neuroprotection, um, but a lot of those thousand failures that you know they never made it to the clinic. So um, and there's a couple of key reasons for that. A lot of them had TOX issues, so that's why we we put so much focus on safety, um, in particular in stroke patients who can have a number of different comorbidities, they might have atrial fibrillation, hypertension, a propensity for more hemorrhage, post-stroke. So we do put a lot of emphasis and focus on that safety, as do the regulatory authorities, so the FDA, um EMA, for example. Uh so that is sort of one of the reasons that um a lot of these drugs actually never even made it into the clinic or even never made it past the phase one. So we're already doing um much better than a bunch of these other failed uh therapies. The other thing that really came out post that paper and also discussing the idea of neuroprotection and the challenges of neuroprotection from academics, from clinicians, from industries, there is a now categoric understanding that a neuroprotection drug it can't just work on one single target. So we know that in brain injury it is complicated. So when you get that glutamate spike and you get that sort of opening of the channels on the brain cells, calcium rushing in, there's a number of different types of what we call voltage-gated iron channels that are responsible for this cell death. We know that drugs that have just targeted one of those channels have failed previously. So a lot of the emphasis needs to be on this idea of drugs that have this plurifunctional or multi-mechanism of action, which is exactly what RG007 has. So we work on not only the key voltage-gated channel, which is called the NMDA receptor, but we're also targeting other voltage-gated iron channels which are responsible for calcium influx. What's really unique about our drug is it then actually gets inside the cell. So it is a cell-penetrating peptide. Um, that's really important because one of the key things that we see in stroke and other types of brain injury, but broadly in other neurological conditions like Alzheimer's Parkinson's is this mitochondrial dysfunction. So mitochondria are little organelles that sit inside the brain cells, the neurons, and they're really sort of the powerhouses of the cell. So once they start becoming damaged, there's very little you can do to sort of rescue that neuron. So our drug gets inside the cell and it prevents sort of secondary calcium influx into the mitochondria. So we're reducing that mitochondrial dysfunction significantly, um, as well as reducing neuroinflammation and a number of other things. So yeah, it's kind of like this bit of a sort of silver bullet. It's it's got a number of different ways that it acts, and this is why indeed in least art, you know, preclinical studies, we get such great efficacy of the drug.
SPEAKER_02Now, a lot along the way, Liz, you've you've had a um a setback or two, I guess, um, as always. How do you how do you handle those and and move forward? Is that just part and parcel of being a biotech company?
Why Neuroprotection Usually Fails
SPEAKER_00Well, I think so. You know, drug development, especially neurological drug development, is not a straightforward path. So we you know, we have such fantastic pre-clinical data. We have over a decade of of work that's been done on this drug asset. We have over 26 peer-reviewed publications. We've actually just had a couple more that have been accepted for our other sort of rat MCAO work. And so we we have the conviction, right? So we know like this drug looks exceptional. When we put our preclinical data in front of pharma companies, in front of clinicians, like resoundingly, the feedback is that okay, this data, like this looks better than anything else is that that's out there. So the question is, how do we best then translate that into humans who are obviously very different from uh from rats? So, what we did, so phase one was in healthy volunteers, that's fine. We're just making sure we're not seeing any um really sort of serious adverse events. We saw no adverse events whatsoever in the top dose in that trial. So that was the dose that we took into the phase two clinical trial. When we designed the phase two clinical trial, we really wanted, and this was based on feedback from uh clinicians, our clinical advisory group, as well as via statisticians, that we should go reasonably broad, right? It is a signal searching type of trial. So, primary endpoint always has to be safety, that is the go-no-go decision, essentially, within our trial. And then we wanted to look at you know, where does is the drug working overall or where is it working best? So we were looking at how well does the drug reduce infarct volume across the board, and then we were looking at um some pre-specified subgroups based on what we call collateral status, so which looks at how much other um blood is sort of infiltrating the part of the brain that has the ischemia, sort of beyond just where the clot is. So um we sort of knew that maybe the drug um efficacy would be related to some of these subgroups. So the setback really in the phase two trial, so it's interesting because when I speak to um, you know, clinicians, even our institutional investors, the phase two trial did exactly what we needed it to do. It just didn't meet the expectations of the market generally in terms of that secondary endpoint. Um, and so because we saw this signal in this pre-specified subgroup, so this group of stroke patients that have what we call poor collateral blood flow. So they've got a large clock in the internal carotid artery or the M1 branch, um, and then these group of patients also have really poor blood flow going to that part of the brain from other arteries and vessels that sit around it. Um, so that was interesting to us, and we sort of wanted to dig into that. And once we started actually digging into the data, what we saw was if we define the patient groups in terms of stroke severity, which links very clearly to their collateral blood flow status, this is where we're actually starting to see a really clear signal which is biologically coherent. So it's not just a random by chance we've seen this signal. It's actually something, a signal that completely aligns with the mechanism of the drug and completely aligns with um how stroke patients are presenting and how their sort of uh you know, what their sort of functional outcome is post-stroke.
SPEAKER_02Right. Um, and and you've got a FDA meeting uh coming up, I believe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we um are going for a type A meeting, which is essentially talking to the FDA. The whole purpose of that meeting is to present them with a new phase 2B protocol and just getting their sort of their buy-in around that protocol, making sure that they're happy with how we are defining the patient subgroup in terms of that more sort of moderate to severe stroke patients, and then looking at the stats that are sort of sitting behind how we're powering that as well. So uh yeah, so we're hoping that that meeting will be held um sort of before the end of this quarter, um, just depending on FDA timelines, which are a little bit up in the air at the moment, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_02They got a new well, they haven't got a new chief yet, have they?
SPEAKER_00Um well, yeah, so they I mean there's obviously a lot of churn in the kind of the middle layer of the FDA. So I know you know that a lot of them are under the pump to meet these sort of timelines. We definitely had that with our um I and D response, they were well and surely over the mandated timeline. So yeah, so we're not holding our breath for a quick turnaround, but but we're um hopeful.
SPEAKER_02Fair enough. Now now obviously the the the news on that trial back last September was was a bit of a setback in terms of the share price as well. And you've been, I guess, um I wouldn't say flatlining, but you've kind of been flatlining. I'm gonna be unkind. I'm gonna be unkind here. Drifting and kind of flatlined, yeah, which which which is disappointing. Going forward, what what's the sort of uh catalysts and milestones we should be looking for uh to uh to re-rate you back to your um to your pre-September level?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think um you know investors are uh are looking for some really clear signals, I think. So the FDA kind of clinical hold and getting buy-in around that phase 2B clinical trial design are big ones. So we're working really hard in the background to finalise a couple of assays that the FDA required us to do in order to get that clinical hold lifted, but also really, you know, being able to get feedback through that type A meeting on that phase two B trial design. So completing what we need to do for the clinical hold, getting by and around that phase 2B clinical trial design, and then obviously ultimately getting that I and D hold lifted. So um, you know, that is just sort of a risk overhang, I think, that investors are going, you know, we we we need to see that that risk mitigated, removed, um, and then you know, a really kind of clear path forward in terms of what that phase 2B looks like and why we think it is the right trial design. So um it's yeah, that's just a process. We're working on it. We've had a couple of um just with the the assays, they should be relatively straightforward assays, um, but validating the methodology has been a little bit challenging for the CRO. So nothing to do with our drug, just getting the methodology sorted. So we hopefully in the next, definitely by sort of mid-year, those assays will be um will be done, we'll be able to report the results of those. So they're critical safety um requirements. So one assay is related to the impact of our drug on cardiac activity. So that's obviously a big one for stroke patients who often have um present with sort of atrial fibrillation and underlying cardiac issues. So we need to show that that's okay. And then the other one is on a genotox, um, so just confirming that the drug doesn't. Have any impact on the genetic material in cells. Again, another sort of key safety requirement from the FDA. So that'll be a good sort of you know strong safety signal once we get the results of those assays and can present that to the market. And then that'll be sort of the completion of essentially, you know, what the FDA had asked us to do. We'll get the feedback on the phase 2B trial and then we'll be able to update all that data to put into our clinical cold response back to the FDA.
SPEAKER_02And you mentioned AI before in terms of uh brainomics. Is it becoming more and more helpful for biotech companies doing these sorts of trials?
Subgroups Signals And The FDA Path
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. It was such a um a big presence at ESOC as well. I think now most comprehensive stroke centres globally have these AI tools that are embedded within their clinical workflow. So we know that you know assessing stroke severity using this aspect score is you know done really poorly as a kind of a manual assessment of brain imaging. So this is why all these companies like Brainomics are starting to pop up. So we know, so when obviously I said before when we started the trial we didn't have access to that technology at site, um that is now very prevalent, so and and sites know how to use it well and are using it well, so it's a very easy thing for us to slot into our clinical trial design. Um, and it's absolutely critical for us, right? So in our phase two, um, we not only had a skew in patient severity, so more severe patients in the um at the R07 treatment group, which essentially then we weren't able to see that signal overall, um, but also you know, just the aspects was a key uh exclusion criteria for our trial, so uh that wasn't right as well, and then that aspect, the wrong aspects was then included in our all our statistical analysis. So essentially we were doing the wrong statistical analysis. So that AI for the trial moving forward um and getting that aspects right and the determination of stroke severity right is yeah, absolutely critical.
SPEAKER_02Now, looking through the uh my notes that I've got, um you're looking at a nasal formulation for Alzheimer's as well. That's that's that's part of your product suite. The market doesn't seem to be giving you any kind of uh credit for some of the other uh arrows that you're firing at various things like the uh traumatic brain injury and and an H uh hypoxic ischemia entha.
SPEAKER_00Enkephalopathy.
SPEAKER_02That's the one. That's the one.
SPEAKER_00Don't worry, it took me a good month to learn how to say that word.
SPEAKER_02So I've had right. Enkepilophothy. Enkepalopathy. I'll nearly there. Um so um the market doesn't seem to be giving you much much credit for those. Do you think it should be giving you more credit for those? And is that something that I guess could surprise investors over the next uh you know one or two years?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think so. So, you know, obviously as a listed company we have the nuance of ensuring that we've got sufficient news flow to keep people interested and engaged and and you know showing momentum uh within the company. So there's you know, probably a lot of things we're doing in the background, you know, that are not material that we can't announce, but so absolutely critical to the success of the company. Um, and so what we really want to do is start sort of elevating some of these other indications to um, you know, in particular in traumatic brain injury, to bring that into the clinic uh in a smaller trial where we'll be able to get data out quicker than what we will in the stroke trial to really increase the value of uh of Argenica essentially. So TBI is the next one in moderate to severe TBI that we want to bring into the clinic. Um, we've got some exciting sort of development around um partnerships across Australian hospitals that we're looking at. Uh there's a really exciting um cohort study that's going on called Predict TBI that um that we're we're hoping that we can work with that group of um clinicians and researchers who are again overlaying AI around the brain imaging but doing some really cool work on blood biomarkers as well. So um so that'll be more like a 1B kind of open label type of trial where we can can get results out to the the market quicker, um, you know, and hopefully that all looks positive. In terms of HIE, so that is our sort of orphan indication. This is a more like a global ischemia, so very similar to stroke in terms of having a reduction in blood flow, it it um affects newborn infants, typically from like the cord wrapped around the neck or the mother having preeclampsia. So, this indication, um, we've got some fantastic animal data. We're doing a whole bunch of work around a piglet model. So, this is essentially what the FDA has said to us is what is required to be able to move this into the clinic. So, again, um, you know, that's that's an area that we're continuing to focus on preclinically. In terms of the nasal um formulation, so that work is ongoing. We're fortunate enough to have a grant from the West Australian government to progress that and looking at um looking at Alzheimer's disease in that as well, so which is just a lot easier way to deliver a drug. Um, you can be more targeted. We're really relying on this sort of nose-to-brain um type of route of administration. So this is becoming more prevalent in sort of neurology, so being able to get a drug directly into the brain rather than say an intravenous formulation, which goes into the blood flow, you get sort of it gets metabolized through the liver first before kind of going to the brain. So um, so we're excited about that sort of nasal formulation. But really, as a company at the moment, you know, we could probably with this drug, we could go after a million different things because you know the data preclinically looks so exciting on so many indications, but we're very much sort of focused on that stroke phase 2B trial, um, and then obviously moving the traumatic brain injury into the clinic as well.
SPEAKER_02Now, um, looking at the more mundane and dull things in the world, um, cash. You've got about eight million bucks in cash. Is that going to be enough? What was the sort of cash burn rate at the moment?
AI Imaging And The Broader Pipeline
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that cash gets us sort of to really to the start of the phase two B trial. Um, so we will need to find some additional cash either through non-dilutive funding, we're talking sort of in active um discussions with potential pharma partners, um, and then obviously looking at um a potential raise as well. So the the ideal is that we can get some of this non-dilutive funding to really allow us to kind of start that trial. We have built an interim analysis into the trial as well, so you know that should be a big value kind of inflection re-rate once we get that that interim data out, uh, as long as obviously it all looks all looks great. Um, so yeah, so at the moment we're just trying to bed down well, how many patients do we need to, and we we're going after so something different we're doing in the phase 2B is really going after the functional outcome endpoint. So this is a measure of disability at day 90 post-stroke. This is the endpoint that we need to get the drug approved. So we really want to understand in this severe stroke group does the drug actually change that functional outcome endpoint at 90 days? So we're sort of flipping it around. So that just requires more patience because it's it's more qualitative. So you you do need more patience to um account for some of the um variability in that qualitative assessment. Um, so yeah, we'll need we will need to obviously find more cash for the TBI clinical trial. We're we're pretty confident that can be covered by non-dilutive grant funding. We're sort of working with research partners and groups on that. Um, TBI seems to be more sexier than stroke for whatever reason. I put it down to sport concussions, but um so so we're sort of looking at potential for that sort of non-dilutive funding and and always looking for non-dilutive funding first and foremost to fund these activities.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um, and you've got no debt either at the moment, so so that's a that's that's a positive. Um, what does the share register look like? Do you have uh many INSOs on the on the share register?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we we have a couple of INSOs on the share register. So the last placement that we did to sort of finalise the phase two clinical trial was um you know really sort of focused on an institutional placement as well as uh a number of high net worths. In terms of the top 20, so it is a mix of um a couple of institution institutional um investors in there as well as high net worths um that have been in the stock for quite a long time, and then sort of management and and founders and the like as well. So um yeah, we've got a sort of a reasonable mix, it's pretty tightly held in you know the sort of top end, so a little bit of that sort of bottom end retail swinging can can really shift the share price.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um, and as far as you know, you you've just been to uh ESOC and obviously um talked to a lot of people. Is is there a a lot of interest uh out there in um in these sorts of partnerships with some of the bigger boys out there for um for Eugenica?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we've had um really good engagement recently with um a number of big farmers. So the ones that are actively engaged in looking at sort of neural protection assets are um J, Bayer, Merck, uh, Boe Ringer Ingelheim. Um so they're they're sort of the the big players. Merck has just done a deal with um one of our competitors post their phase two trial. So that was a Spanish company called Aptar Targets. So, I mean they and that was sort of based on some post hoc analysis, they had a skew in their data as well, which actually skewed in the right direction. So um they had better stroke patients in their treatment group, so yes, um, and that can happen, right? So I know NERC is looking to do a phase 2B trial, but I think they're you know really digging into the data now to find, you know, what is that subgroup? You know, interestingly, the market doesn't necessarily like the fact that we've got this subgroup. I can tell you pharma absolutely loves it. So when we talk to um either neurology or cardiovascular teams within these big pharma, the fact that we've been able to find a subgroup, the fact that we've got statistical significance on a functional outcome in this subgroup is the thing that you know really is getting them excited because it means it means that the next trial is D-RIS. We've got a really solid plan on how to identify that group. That identification is AI driven and it's now pretty much standard of care. So uh that's that's sort of exciting, and then the fact that you know the subgroup that we've found is the highest value subgroup. So these are the patients that have the worst outcomes post-stroke, the greater strain on the healthcare system, so therefore that can attract higher drug pricing essentially. So um, yeah, so from those discussions, and you know, they've been really helpful. So, you know, Genitech was able to provide some input into that phase two v trial design. So we're really having those discussions broadly on, you know, would a deal be possible, but also what would you want to see in a phase two trial design? You know, we want to design this trial obviously with um what a potential farmer partner actually really needs to see. So that's been you know super useful as well.
SPEAKER_02And and as far as you you said that Merck took over one of your took out one of your competitors, what sort of price um are we talking there for for them?
SPEAKER_00So that's a million dollar question because they're a private company. So we don't we don't we don't I mean I've I've heard rumours, inklings that you know it's a a pretty um it's pretty substantial. Anything in Europe protection it's such a massive market, it's gonna it's gonna attract a big dip. So um yeah, so I've heard it's it's quite large, but the exact number I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02Fair enough. Um now now Liz, um you've been very kind with your time today. If we were to come back in a year's time uh and and do this uh the same exercise and and have you on as a guest, um, which I'm would be able to do. Um what what what would the one thing that you would like to see uh have happened to um a Jenica this this year?
SPEAKER_00Uh the one thing is that the share price is actually reflecting somebody.
SPEAKER_02That would be nice, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sorry, but I think you know, this time next year we want two clinical trials running. Essentially, you know, we want to be um have have our phase two B stroke trial up and running and uh phase one B TBI trial up and running. So that is um absolutely realistic, you know, would have our IND, hopefully some other regulatory incentives. You know, we're looking at fast track designation from the FDA and things like that. So, you know, on a on a very clear path to getting some pretty large value inflections um this time next year.
SPEAKER_02Well, Dr. Liz Dalymore, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. I wish you lots of luck, and we will revisit next year, and uh hopefully the share price will have responded in a far better way uh in a year's time than it is uh currently. I I can't see why not. I mean, with all that cash um and where you are in the market, you know, there there's very little value being ascribed to um to you for your um the R A R G 007. So plenty of outside us.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Huge amount of outside. So yes, um stay tuned, Henry. Stay tuned.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you very much for this exclusive um coming back from that uh that very prestigious conference. So congratulations on that. Uh and I noted the announcement this morning uh as well, with some uh some more um wisdom being added to the company, which it which is always great for the advisory board. So that's that's always good as well. Uh it's nothing like um peers uh getting on board as well to validate uh a company. So well done. Thank you. And thank you once again. So it's been an absolute delight. Thanks, everyone.