S5 Ep1: Let's talk about solidarity

Join us for a new season of the People vs Inequality podcast on one of the biggest themes when it comes to changemaking and tackling inequalities: solidarity. Is solidarity in crisis or booming? What do we actually mean when we say solidarity? How can we unpack, critique, rebuild or reimagine solidarity in these times of great need? One step is creating the space to talk about it, to share our doubts, fears, frustrations, hopes, learning and more. This is what a group of Atlantic Fellows for Social and Economic Equity did over the past two years, resulting in a heartwarming process, a publication with community reflections and this podcast. 

In this episode you hear what we did, why it felt so valuable and what we found along the way. Amanda Segnini (climate justice activist & co-lead of the Solidarity Project), Ruby Hembrom (Indigenous Publisher, Phd-student & member of the project) and Barbara van Paassen (host & co-lead of the Solidarity project) talk about what brought them to this space, what solidarity means to them and what they learned in this time together – amidst so much violence and injustice in the world. Of course they also share their hope in moving forward practicing solidarity and simply being human.

In need of some inspiration? Please grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation!

Resources:

• PUBLICATION: COMMUNITY REFLECTIONS ON SOLIDARITY https://www.canva.com/design/DAGbiB8gN2Q/KfaoUMAKBy0bnqEUv6dCQg/view
•  “LET’S TALK ABOUT SOLIDARITY” ATLANTIC FELLOWS LSE BLOG https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/blogs/afsee-incubation-labs-lets-talk-about-solidarity 
• PEOPLE VS INEQUALITY BLOG AND TRANSCRIPTS https://peoplevsinequality.blogspot.com/ 
• MORE ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
  • https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/fellows/2021/ruby-hembrom
  • https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/fellows/2021/amanda-segnini
  • https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/fellows/2020/barbara-van-paassen

The People vs Inequality Podcast is a co-production between Barbara van Paassen (creator/ host) and Elizabeth Maina (producer). This episode was edited by Charles Righa and supported by the Atlantic Fellows for Social and Economic Equity Programme as part of the Solidarity Incubation lab.

Transcript

People vs Inequality Podcast - Season 5 Episode 1: Let’s talk about solidarity

Welcome to the People Versus Inequality podcast. In a time of crisis and fast change, this podcast is a space to reflect and learn with change makers on how to tackle inequality. In this fifth season of the People Versus Inequality podcast, we are doing something a little different. We don't dive into a specific topic like food or climate justice, but we take a deep dive into what we consider a key condition and part of all social justice work: solidarity.

And we don't just do this with one guest at a time, but we bring a few people around the table to share what solidarity means to them, what obstacles they see, and what hopes and dreams they have for solidarity and its role in a more just and equal world. This series is part of a project that myself and other Atlantic fellows for social and economic equity have been working on, which aims to unpack, critique, and reimagine the concept of solidarity and its practices and praxis in these challenging times.

In this very first episode, you will hear myself, Amanda Segnini and Ruby Hembron, to share with you some of what we did and learned about solidarity over the past year and a half, as well as ideas on what's next.

My name is Barbara van Paassen and I'm very excited for this new series in today's episode of the People Versus Inequality podcast. So please grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation!

So welcome Amanda and Ruby. Thank you. Welcome to, welcome. Hello. 

As usual, we always start with wanting to know a little bit more about who we have with us today in the conversation and I'm wondering if you would like to share with us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and what brought you to this project that we embarked on, on Solidarity. 

And maybe to give you some slack, because of course I'm also part of this conversation, and normally I don't talk much about myself in this podcast, but I can start and say something and then you can go after if you want.

So for me, for the listeners that don't know, I, I'm based in the Netherlands. And I've long worked internationally, advocating and campaigning for land rights, women's rights and, and other social justice issues. And in the past few years, I'm working more independently on, on a range of projects with different actors.

Um, and I guess for me, solidarity was always this thing that's, that I aspire to Of being useful to others, addressing the injustices in the world and the power imbalances that I see. And also something that I really wanted to take others on board with. And I always struggled with why are not more people caring and why are not more people acting in solidarity?

So both what can I do better and how can I really show up, um, as well as how can I take others on board? So that kind of brought me to this conversation. And when we met now two years ago, and we had conversations around, the state of the world and things looking a little grim and the need for more solidarity. And this was even before all that happens since October 7th, 2024. I was sitting with this question. Yeah, we always talk about solidarity, but actually what do we mean? Uh, so let's start there and let's start having this conversation. I invited others in and you joined. I'm curious to know what then would you bring to this question of who you are and, and what brought you to this space?

Amanda: Yes, I'm, a climate justice activist working in mostly in Brazil with youth, um, mobilization towards, uh, climate justice and addressing other social justice challenges in the country. And since I've moved to London to do the fellowship, I encounter myself on a space [with] people from all over the world, um, with different struggles, with different, um, actions, activities, and campaigns. Through my work as a campaigner, I work a lot with, uh, solidarity campaigns and bringing the attention for local struggles, and the challenge for me has always been how do we talk about so many different struggles and make those struggles also show up in the midst of so many different, [00:05:00] um, things that's going on, which is a very challenging, uh, space as well. How do we position those campaigns, um, to bring more allies and, um, attention to it, but remaining human and true to through the, the soil, true to the, to the core of those, uh, those troubles. 

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you so much, Amanda. Ruby?

Ruby: So my name, like you already mentioned, is Ruby Hembron. I'm from India. I'm an Adivasi, which is an Indigenous group from India, and I run a publishing and archiving outfit often by Indigenous Peoples, and it is about knowledge production, reproduction, primarily voice agency.

And in that I recognize that being from the margins or coming from the margins, there is a complete lack of humanity or even empathy. And in that, how do you keep working in the absence of solidarity? I think that is one of the questions that I want answered or I want to ask, and I think my struggles for my work come from that space.

What does it take for us to continue the struggle when there is no solidarity extended to us or what is the kind of solidarity that has been extended to us are very interesting questions, and I think we may not have the answers, but the process of working with this group in this incubation lab has allowed me to kind of pry on some of those questions and try and find the answers for myself and for everybody.

Barbara: Thank you so much for that. And that's something we we'll come back to also after. I really have appreciated your critical role, and critical thinking in this because, I mean, I think already the way we introduce this, it, it shows that where, where you're sitting and where you're coming from completely changes your perspective on, on the concept in itself.

Like and, and the extent to which this is present or even, um. Desirable or uh, how it expresses itself. So thank you for that. And I'm wondering also, 'cause as you're talking about working in the absence of solidarity, there's of course the solidarity that maybe is extended to you by others and there might also be the solidarity that exists within communities. Um, I don’t know if you wanna say something about that before we move on. 

Ruby: Yeah. There are all kinds of soar. In the sense that, you know, the costs of actually people being able to stand with you in the ways you need them to, how does that translate into, you know, the struggle moving forward or moving to the goals that it needs to achieve?

So. If you look at the context of India, because it is so, so large and so complex, when it comes to understanding adjacent solidarities as well, it is quite complicated because you have 705 recorded indigenous tribes and in that we are located in various geographies and to able to. Extend solidarity comes at a great cost because how then do you leave your struggle to go and extend support to another if you leave yours, who's going to come and fill that space?

So it is both practical, but in all sense, there is a kind of moral solidarity we know, and we do not expect people to come physically and stand with us, but just maybe a correspondence, even if we don't speak the same languages, even 705. When I say indigenous tribes, we speak that many languages, if not more, and in that we understand that, uh, our struggles mean we are fighting one enemy, which is the state in many cases, and what the state thinks of us as expendable peoples and our lands as expendable. And in that are struggles are common, but then we need to be grounded in our physicality, in our geographies to be able to continue the struggle.

So yes, we have to look at what's visible, what's tangible and what's not. So there are many, many layers to this. So yeah, sorry about that. Long, drawn response. But yes. 

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Uh, and I guess that's something also that we found in this project that it's so multi-layered, um, as well, and what you're saying also ties in with what Amanda was talking about, I think in terms of looking for interconnections or what does it mean that these struggles are connected? And as I mentioned at the beginning, we basically, for the past one and a half years, tried to make sense of what do we mean when we say solidarity? We've had conversations like just now and notice the power of it.

Um, and how, how rich, I would say an entry point to the conversation it is. So we've talked about, you know, what does solidarity mean to different people in different spaces at different levels? Why is it relevant in the first place?

What are challenges and opportunities for fostering it if we want that. both within, and we look both within our own community of fellows. and maybe for those that don't know the, Atlantic Fellowship for Social Economic Economic Equity, it's, a lifelong fellowship. In our case, we did this at the London School for Economics, AFSEE Program Program.

And, it is a space to be with like-minded people from all kinds of. Social justice spheres. Going back to our conversations we looked at, at both within that, that community and beyond, seeing what we can learn from this time, how we make sense of this time, what is emerging, and also the role of, of relationship building as part of solidarity. So we've also been taking time for that, um, which has been really great. 

In the end, we all found that these personal perspectives and having these conversations about personal learning around this topic was already so valuable in itself. So we spoke with other fellows, we did the storytelling circles, we had one-on-ones with fellows. We did a re-imagining workshop recently, which was really nice because it was the first time that we were meeting again in [00:13:00] person where we suspended our fears and we dreamed. And I think that was also a really lovely experience. Um, and from all this, we, gathered insights. That we are reflecting back in, uh, online, uh, space a conva. and in these podcast conversations. So that's a quick summary of our project and sometimes we get stuck on the way right. 

Also because these times were really challenging for the world and for many, and sometimes it felt. I dunno about you two, but, um, it felt strange to talk about solidarity rather than just being in full action mode all the time to do things. Um, and at the same time it was kind of nice to have that space, um, amidst, you know, the genocide happening and other grave injustices. But really to be able to have that space to reflect and talk about how we make sense of this. So this was a bit, a summary, but also my experience. I don't know, Amanda and Ruby, if you wanna say something more about. What this space meant to you in the past year and a half? Um, and what stood out for you In terms of things we did or or something that you really appreciated as part of our journey? 

Amanda: Yes, sure. Yeah, it's been quite a journey and I think when we started it, it was very abstract. So what does it mean? We start this, uh, with this question and starting to have conversations, um, and. I think it, we didn't know where we were going, uh, to like, what, what we're going to get out of this space and those conversations. Um, but it's been a beautiful journey because I think what stood out to me, it's, it's the relationships and the conversations that we had and, and this one that we're having now.

So there's. Um, so much going on people's lives, um, on people's, uh, struggles on the communities, and being able to have a time to connect and talk about it. And what does it mean for each one of, um, the people that we talked, and among ourselves as well. It's, it's weaving this. Deeper connection. And for me, this was building solidarity as well among ourselves.

And it's also a vulnerable space because we're talking about, um, things that have affected our communities or things that we really care about. Um. But also being able to, to feel hold, feel honest, feel safe on a space, um, that everybody was really listening to each other. And I think this is something that from, from this conversations is something that really, um, am aware of how difficult it is.

And you've said like we did most of it online. But even though we were able to, to create this, uh, this confidence among, um, uh, people ourselves and yeah, I think this is why when we met in person, when we met in person on the November workshop, it was so powerful, uh, for me.

Ruby: I couldn't have said it better. Amanda really summarized everything so beautifully. I do think the process itself was invaluable. It just began unraveling on its own. We didn't know what would come out and we were often surprised by it, like the doing of solidarity versus the thinking or the feeling of it.

There's so much of a difference, and I do think we need to pay attention to all parts of it. The doing is definitely important, but stepping back. And trying to understand how do you think about it? How do you feel about it? How does it make you feel? These were questions we were struggling with and then struggling with the articulation of all of that.

But in that, when we were finally able to put some words to those thoughts and those feelings, there was this magic and this beauty that came out. And in recognizing that it's not that abstract after all, but also it's going to mean different things to different people, and we just have that space that keeps widening to enable all these new ideas and impulses to germinate.

I think that was beautiful. Just again. Seeing newer parts of people you've already known because of how they're thinking about different issues is again, so enriching. Just to understand the context and how your lived experiences feed into how we understand or articulate solidarity was beautiful. So I do think the process itself was absolutely.

Something that kept us grounded, that kept us curious, and I think it will keep keeping us curious, but it's also helped us build a bond and we know that we will be there for each other and we can reach out to each other if we ever need solidarity, whether it be in our personal private spaces or in the work we do and the movement building that we do.

Barbara: Thank you so much, both of you. Yeah, that really warms my heart again. So you talked [00:19:00] already a bit about, our first question was of course, what does solidarity mean? Um, and, and I think we found, again and again, just how personal that is, how context dependent the plurality of the concept. That's why we also took this approach of really looking at more for these personal, um, stories and, and approaches. But, but there are a few common threads when people talk about what solidarity means to them. And I wonder what stood out for you?

Amanda: Yes, of course there are many, and one that keeps coming up for me, it's, uh, the matter of trust. Do we need trust to practice solidarity? To stand in solidarity? Um, is this fundamental for it? And I don't think it's an easy question to answer. I think everybody has their own standpoint on this, but I think what.

Stood out on this process is that it's important to know if you can trust, um, each other and then it will unveil and it will, um, transform this relationship. Um, but there's always a question behind, um, everyone's had if, um, you can trust or not. And I think it's. It's also an issue of our times. Um, but what was really interesting from, from those conversation is that people are very willing to trust and we are very willing to trust each other.

And this is what makes it very human as well. Like if you believe that you can trust each other and there is this, the sense of the humanity, that is another thing that has come. Um, on this has showed on those conversations that is the humanity of, um, that we, we, we cannot forget that we are humans and there is the humanity of being, um, that should be preserved, uh, how we preserve the humanity and we think ourselves as human beings as well.

Those are the two threads that, uh, stood out to me as well. 

Barbara: Hmm. Thank you so much for sharing that because a lot of people, when we asked what does solidarity mean to you, they talked about community togetherness, um, relationships. Um, so I guess there's where this issue of trust comes up and at the same time, of course in global conversations, and at institutional level there's a lot of distrust. So then it's really interesting that when you come to that very human personal level, people want to trust. And uh, there is also a lot being trust being built as long as there is the space created to do that. I think I. That's, yeah, absolutely. That's definitely one of my key takeaways as well. And you, Ruby, what, what was something when it comes to this meaning of solidarity that stood out for you?

Ruby: just so many things, but I think it comes to the understanding that solidarity is not lineal. It's neither black or white, but it's nuanced and it can be messy. And we make mistakes. And that, I think the most important thing or the most important takeaway for me was how you understand that solidarity is both given and withdrawn. So when you think of the BDS movement, that is a withdrawal. That is solidarity.

I think it's so powerful to understand that because we always seem to think of it as something you give, but it's also something you take away from, you refuse to participate in. 

Barbara: that's very interesting. So what you're saying is, can you, can you explain how, how that withdrawal works? So in this case, maybe there has been an implicit solidarity. Going on by the products you buy or the mm-hmm. Things, you either or don't. And you actively withdraw that solidarity Yes. With something else. So, is that what you're saying? 

Ruby: Yes. So it's, it's an who are you, what are you endorsing? So when you withdraw. When you recognize you have to withdraw or you need to break certain partnerships, which was or can be considered as solidarity because those partners or those products or those mechanisms are the ones that subjugate, are the ones that are oppressive. That automatically makes you stand in solidarity with the ones who are being oppressed.

So your withdrawal, just the act of withdrawal, even though you did not explicitly say, I stand with somebody, is already a big statement in solidarity. Is that clear? 

Barbara: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. And it also alludes to the fact that of course, Palestine has come up a lot In our conversations indeed over the past year and a half.

Ruby: Yes that's exactly what has solidified this notion for me. Yeah. Yeah. Or has reinforced it. Yes. 

Barbara: And something else you have said in that, in those conversations, is that solidarity then it's also sometimes about choosing sides? 

Ruby: Yes. 

That's really [00:25:00] interesting because I wanted to go back to something else that people said around what does solidarity mean? And someone said something really nice. Also, it's about how to build coalitions out of empathy. It's about shared humanity, responding to an injustice or a cause because of, I think the case of Palestine shows that when there's a really clear. Cause and an urgency and an injustice, um, happening, um, in front of you. 

Um, and then people gather. And we've seen that also in our own community, that then people can gather and, and really do things and have a sustained effort. Um, so I think this time also shows us how it can happen, even though in many ways it's, it's lacking or failing or not enough. Um. We have seen examples of solidarity in the past year and a half.

Is there something that has stood out for you in terms of, yeah, examples that were inspiring or moments that were inspiring when we do try to look at where's, where's solidarity happening? 

Ruby: It's been a hard year and so much has happened, but I think Palestine has kind of anchored the way we think and we think about solidarity and the Atlantic Fellows for Palestine. This group that organically came together because they needed to respond, needed a space to just talk about what we can do or not even if we are far removed from the struggle or we don't belong to the struggle, or we have no power to really change things, but.

That became this impetus for, I think testing our own humanities and amongst our fellows. The people who belonged to Palestine, really led the way and enabled us to see how it was possible to make room for others and how they welcomed us and allowed us to partake of those discussions. So I think I would bring it down to the last year and Palestine and this group within our community that helped us see and test what our moral compass was.

Amanda: No, I couldn't agree more. I think it's, it's also how the community came together. It's uh. Uh, being, holding the space for each other, but also understanding on the process what is the space that is there, uh, and what's, what's each one's part to take on that space? I think it's, it's, it's very, um, powerful to observe that the community can come together and as a response for, for, for the war and the genocide, and I think it's an example that, uh, more and more we need to say what has been silenced for so long and yeah, it's a matter of finding the spaces to say it as well then. 

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you both for that. That brings me a bit to the challenges of solidarity that came up in our project. There's a quite a lot of fear. I've noticed also in the conversations I've had with people that. People struggle with the concept, you know, what does it mean if I don't know, do I have to fully agree on everything? What does that mean? What happens if I do speak out or if I do take action or how do I do it in just ways?

I mean, all these fears and also doubts, um, and insecurities, I think are very strong. Um, because of course there's so much passion or there's so much feeling in this and there's so much happening in the world. So these are some of the challenges that really came up for me and where I think we've also learned that, again, creating those spaces to talk about them and to acknowledge and to validate also people's fears and that they're okay and you know, people are not alone in that and stuff. That was really an important insight for me, how important that is. And I'm wondering if there are other. Um, obstacles or needs that, emerged in the project that you, you would like to speak to? 

Amanda: So we also have streams of challenges that we talked about and kind of structural challenges that are related to the time and the space and the power, um, different, um, ideologies or lack of information, so structural challenges, and then challenges in practicing solidarity. so the positionality accessibility. we talked a lot about the disability, um, and accessible means ways to include, uh, people on the conversations as well. And unless, um, on this we talked about also a challenges that what holds people back?, And I think here I would highlight, um, the safety of people. So it's also important to consider that. 

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you so much. On this question of do we all have to agree? Um, we spoke to a few people who had such eloquent ways of putting like, uh, no, we don't all have to agree. We cannot agree on everything. If, if we, if that would be our our starting point, um, we have very small movements of solidarity. Uh, and this I learned in another space actually with Palestinian feminists. We, we need the space to be as big as possible, um, and to allow different places for people to enter, both in terms of, you know, do they understand or agree and everything, and in terms of how they can take action.

I can also imagine there are different views on this and there are obviously some non-negotiables that should be in this space, but I do think this idea that we all have to agree and everything does hold back, um, some of the solidarity movement building. Um, so at least how can you create those spaces where you can have those conversations where you can disagree and find ways of, of, um, coming together. I dunno if you would see that the same or if there are aspects that I'm overlooking here. 

Amanda: Yeah, I think for me there's at the workshop as well, we talked about like the truth Olympics and everybody, like people trying to sell their own truth and universal or a sense of a universal truth. And I think it speaks a lot to what you, you just shared. It's if we want to make the movement as big as possible. We have to have space for disagreements, but also ways to, to talk with each other. So going back to like building the relationships even with, um, um, different, um, opinions and, and point of views.

Barbara: I think often the disagreements are both on the kind of fundamental ideological part and on the how. Of course there are a lot of power dynamics that play into both of these, um, that I am also cognizant of. Um, and that's something else that we talk to people about. 'cause you cannot take away this power. There might be power differences. Um, so again, how can you create a space to, to be mindful of that, to talk about that, to navigate that in ways that are just, and again, that's another, learning for me is. To, for anyone wanting to be in solidarity and to really be cognizant of the history of the movement that's there and of how are they coming into the space? Um, not, not just, you know, barging in, um, but first learning and, uh, and, and being humble in that. It takes time, right? Which none of us have, but we have to create it if we wanna do this meaningfully. So maybe, yeah, let's move towards looking forward.

So we'll be sharing these resources we'll in the show notes. Um, we've learned that these conversations are important and we're gonna try to see how within our community we can create more spaces, meaningful spaces for that. Um, anything else, Ruby or Amanda, on what we see moving forward? What do we hope people might. Take from this conversation or do in their own lives and communities? 

Amanda: Well, I think one thing, it's people keep hopes up. I think people keep hoping that it's possible to, to, to change. Um, looking to the bigger picture. There's a lot of things, um, to be done fighting for social justice. But on a small scale, it's looking and reflecting about yourself and how you can, what you can offer to others and to other communities and like closer or far away from you. I think this comes from the personal reflection. 

Barbara: Yeah. Ruby, what about you? What do you hope for people to take away from this conversation or to, to do?

Ruby: To recognize that we've all participated in the process of solidarity in some way or the other in small and big ways in our personal spaces and into larger spaces. So we have made a difference and not to think that solidarity is something are removed from us, and that only those with possibilities to affect change can be the carriers of it.

So despite meeting challenges or knowing the end game is going to not be in our favor doesn't mean we do not extend solidarity. So I think this project and all the collated materials or the collages that we have put out should just help people recognize that. Taking a step back to just think and feel about solidarity is. 

A great gift to also recognize the ways in which we have extended it or the way it is we have received it is just this incredible moment of gratitude and grace that we can take the time for, and also to understand what the resonances are, how to be challenged by it, how not to be complacent in the ways that we know solidarity.

I think that would be wonderful just for people to be. Challenged people to be grateful people, to show that grace and gratitude, to understand that there is something so integral in making us human. And I think it is solidarity, it is love, but it is solidarity too. And love is solidarity.

Barbara: And with that, I think you just closed our episode perfectly. Thank you so much, Ruby and Amanda. Um, for joining me in this space. It's been a real pleasure to be on this journey with you. It's not over. I hope we're gonna continue even if the project ends. And, and this conversation also today, again uh, was truly I've learned again, um, and it was a pleasure to be with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Ruby/ Amanda: Thank you. Yes. Thank you very much, Barbara. 

Barbara: So thanks again Amanda and Ruby for this journey together and today's conversation. You're both amazing people with vision, critical analysis and warm hearts, so I look forward to more. And thank you listeners for listening to today's episode. 

If you enjoyed the conversation, please subscribe. Leave a review and spread the word so more people can join. This really helps us and check out the resources in the show notes. Um, and of course, watch this space for more inspiring episodes coming up.