S5 Ep.2: Solidarity in times of climate breakdown Artwork

People vs Inequality Podcast

In a time of crisis and fast change, this podcast is a space to reflect and learn with change-makers working to tackle inequalities and injustice. We hear about the choices they make, the approaches they take, the obstacles they face and their hopes and dreams in making real change happen. As massive inequalities are threatening our societies and planet, join us to find out how to use this moment to turn the tide and shift power for a more just and equal world.

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People vs Inequality Podcast

S5 Ep.2: Solidarity in times of climate breakdown

May 22, 2025 • PeoplevsInequality • Season 5 • Episode 2

In a time of great injustice and a burning planet: what can we do to strengthen or reimagine solidarity? From grassroots action in post-apartheid South Africa, to India’s, Brazil’s and global movements for land rights, fossil fuel phaseout and climate just alternatives: what can we learn on what works and what doesn’t?

In this episode we hear from three wonderful climate justice activists and thinkers exploring this question. Najma Mohamed, Maduresh Kumar and Amanda Segnini bring a wealth of experience from different parts of the globe. They reflect on what it means when you move from local organizing to international science-policy spaces on development, nature and climate (Najma), Majority World alternatives building (Madhuresh) and global land rights campaigning (Amanda), and what we would hear if we would truly listen to grassroots movements.

Tune in for unique perspectives on the question of solidarity in times of climate breakdown and key ingredients for a more just world: from remaining authentic and accountable, to the importance of emancipatory political education and global spaces that challenge historic power imbalances and build solidarity in heart and head: this conversation gets to the heart of what isn’t working and what solidarity could look like.

So grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation!

Credits: The People vs Inequality Podcast is a co-production between Barbara van Paassen (host, creator) and Elizabeth Maina (producer). This episode was edited by Charles Righa and supported by the Atlantic Fellows for Social and Economic Equity Programme as part of the Solidarity Incubation Lab aiming to unpack, critique and reimagine solidarity in these challenging times.

Resources:

Blog on solidarity between NGOs and social movements (referred to in the episode) – Madhuresh Kumar https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/transformation/ngos-and-social-movements-partnership-or-solidarity/

More on the project “Let’s talk about solidarity” https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/blogs/afsee-incubation-labs-lets-talk-about-solidarity

More on Amanda’s work:

https://www.landrightsnow.org/

https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/fellows/2021/amanda-segnini

People vs Inequality Podcast S.5 Ep. 2: Solidarity in times of climate breakdown

Barbara: Welcome to the People Versus Inequality podcast in a time of crisis and fast change. This podcast is a space to reflect and learn with change makers on how to tackle inequality. As you might have heard already in our last episode, this season is a little different as we dive into what we consider a key condition and part of all social justice work, solidarity.

And we don't just do this with one guest at a time, but we bring a few people around the table to share what solidarity means to them. What obstacles do they see and their hopes and dreams for solidarity and its role in a more just and equal world. This series is part of a project myself and other Atlantic Fellows for social and economic equity have been working on, aiming to unpack critique and reimagine solidarity in these challenging times. In our first episode, we talked about what we did and found in this project and the importance of even having these conversations. Today we dive into what solidarity means in the context of climate breakdown.

Specifically, we do this with three wonderful climate justice activists and thinkers, researchers who are also co-fellows of mine, Najma Mohamed, Madhuresh Kumar, and Amanda Segnini. As you will hear, they bring a wealth of experience from different parts of the globe and unique perspectives on the question of solidarity, in times of climate breakdown from grassroots action in post-apartheid South Africa to India's and Brazil's social justice movements. To building the next generation of leadership and global campaigning on land rights, fossil fuel phase out, and climate just alternatives. What can we learn about fostering solidarity and about practicing solidarity?

My name is Barbara van Paassen and I'm the host of People versus Inequality podcast, and I'm very excited for today's episode and guests.

So please grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation.

So there we are. Hi, Najma, Maduresh, Amanda. Hi. Hello. Hello. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

So usually we start hearing a little bit about who we have at the table. And I know some of you already and, and Najma, we haven't met before. I was wondering if you wanna share a little bit about how you came to do what you do.

If you want to really reflect on what role has solidarity played in that journey, that would be really great.

Najma: So I guess my journey started very much in my childhood. You know, I think like so many people that end up working in the climate and environment or nature sectors, there's often a connection to nature that you experience sort of a deep connection in nature.

And so for me, I grew up in an incredibly beautiful, you know, coastal town at the. Of the African continent grew up, you know, with the childhood, with, you know, being able to access the ocean, you know, mountains all around me. So I really grew up with a love for nature, but I also grew up in apartheid South Africa.

So the moment I'd make myself to the beach, I'd been met with the barrier saying, you know, this is. The side of the barrier I should stay on, and that's the side of the barrier I cannot go to this is the national park, which I now know is a national asset, which I didn't have access to. So I grew up witness and living that exclusion from nature.

I also saw how I grew up in a community where there were fishermen and I could see that the access to the fisheries resources was constrained. Because of the color of their skin. And I must say a huge appreciation to my family. And growing up in the environment that I did, I grew up in a household from my siblings and my mother is an incredible human being and taught me, you know, opened our home to work as organization to student activists.

And so for me, when I later came to understand about solidarity and standing united with your diverse values and perspectives and agendas, but finding that common. Goal. I saw it growing up, so I saw solidarity, you know, in action, in people's willingness to come together, their willingness to cross over the barriers that divided us in terms of our agendas and in the willingness to act collectively.

And I think that really inspired how I viewed the, well that time, the climate climate was not really the top of the agenda. It was, you know, an environmental crisis. It was depletion of the ozone. It was poor conservation practices that were really the big issues that connected for inequality and environment.

And then later my career focused more on, on sort of climate, nature and inequality. But even those early days to find inspiration for the kind of environmental climate work that I wanted to do, I had to. Beyond South Africa. I had to look to India, to Brazil. So it's wonderful to have Amanda and Madhuresh here because I had to find like who were the environmentalists who were connecting these issues in a way that, that we needed to connect it in South Africa.

Thank you so much. Your family sounds amazing. First of all, it's an incredible history that you just sketched out. And I'm also interested because you started out working at a very grassroots level in South Africa and now you're working in a more science policy interface organization.

And, and how did that come about?

Najma: The first four or five years was yearly working across South Africa with urban and rural communities, working with a wide range of stakeholders from urban food growers to waste pickers to rural communities that were getting their land back in protected areas.

So it was a lot of work based in South Africa. And then I started working on a, on a program. So involving 14 countries looking at alternative forms of governance of natural resources. And so I quickly moved to learn from other countries, you know, how could we draw inspiration from one another across different sectors, forestry, oceans, oceans and coast management.

Protected areas about forms of governance that could challenge the idea that state led governance was the only model for natural resource governance. And even in that process, it was really also had an advocacy and an sort of influence component, which was very much rooted in the, what was then called was the term of that time, community based natural resource management.

Maybe the equivalent today would be locally adaptation. My careers meandered through working for research and civil society to working for international organizations and there was more opportunity to begin to understand the interface with international policy processes and how we could influence and advocate.

It's harder to maintain that rootedness in the grassroots movements. And I really would love to hear from others how we can maintain that, um, that authenticity and that rootedness in the voices and the lived experiences and, and really the demands that communities and workers who are really at the frontline of the climate crisis are articulating.

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you for already posing that important question so early on. Thank you. I'm curious, Madhuresh, if you wanna share a little bit about. Who you are and what you kind of, how you ended up doing what you're doing. And it ties to solidarity.

Madhuresh: Yes. Uh, well thank you for, uh, inviting for this interesting conversation. I think the question of solidarity, something when you are in a struggle, and if you also come from a background of. Not a lot of privilege. Then the question of solidarity becomes very important as growing up, coming not from a very, uh, economically affluent family. You depend a lot on the solidarity of the community you live in.

So when you get educated and when you, uh, start looking for work, then you also start looking for. An idea in mind that how do you give back, uh, to the community from which has shaped you, your experiences and all. That's how I got drawn into the world of, uh, activism. During my, my university days, I became involved into anti dam movement without knowing what social movements are really.

Since my university days, I continued working with initiative, volunteering with the Damm movement, and then become, I became a whole timer of, uh, uh, national Alliance of Peoples Movements, which, uh, and, and Dolan, the movement, the anti-dam movement, which had created this huge multi-issue national network.

The experience of National Land people's movement is around the fact that how do you build solidarity between movements? Because all your members, they're all struggling on the ground and everybody's looking for solidarity. Uh, and that's a very interesting position to be in because you, as [00:09:00] a coordinator, your job is to make sure that an or a struggle on the ground somewhere who has just suffered a police attack, receives the required solidarity from other sides of the country and internationally as well.

Sometimes solidarity can also be very mechanical. You just like if you should a press a statement and feel that we have done our job and it happens. So how does solidarity. Become like you become a comrad in struggle over a period of time. You follow through that. So a lot of work I have done, where you have tried linking, making sure that the demands of one struggle doesn't harm the other struggle.

So there is a lot of. Thought, which goes into building trust, building, understanding, building, uh, mutual learning, empathy, compassion. I think a lot of these things go into that. It becomes more challenging, uh, when you start doing work, uh, internationally. Like right now, I'm involved in two similar projects, but also with very different constituencies.

One is global tapestry of alternatives, which is trying to bring together organizations working on developing alternatives to the poly crisis. We are in mainly rooted in the global south and very purposefully staying away from the global north, uh, because we know the kind of problems it has created.

And the second is setting up world commission on fossil fuel phase out. Then there are other struggles. So weaving a network, uh, creating a ecosystem whereby a fossil fuel phase out system can happen. As you all know, because you work in the global system, there are questions of power, there are questions of very different understanding.

There are questions of How do we understand climate crisis? What we would say though. That we are fighting for land rights. We are fighting for energy justice. We are fighting for forest rights, uh, for workers, wages, for food security, and a lot of that.

Now, the global environment, uh, or the Global Climate Justice Movement wants to frame all of your struggles under the broad umbrella of climate. And people say no. Because it's not necessarily everything is there. So there comes the question of, so how do you build solidarity between the global north and the South?

And even sometimes inside the country itself, uh, the trade union movement, how do you reach out to them and have a conversation around just transition? Uh, so a lot of these, uh, it's very intricate and very complicated, but I'm glad that we are having this conversation.

Barbara: Thank you so much, Madhuresh. Um, and you're speaking already to so many of the elements that we're gonna pick up on, uh, more later as well. But that's also quite an impressive history of, of movement organizing you have in India that I hope we can learn more about throughout this conversation as well as this global ecosystem work that is also important. So thank you. And Amanda, you were already doing our last episode. Uh, so for those who have

] heard that they will have heard you already a little bit. When we first met you were organizing with Youth for Climate Justice in Brazil, I think, and now you're also at working at this global level. Do you wanna say something briefly about your journey and what you do today and how solidarity features in that?

Amanda: Yes, of course. Uh, yeah. And thank you, uh, everyone, uh, for this amazing conversation. I. I've been amazed like hearing your stories, your work stories, and how your life and your, your work is, is connected and so much passion. Thank you for sharing. So I've been mobilizing in Brazil and organizing with the youth movement.

And I think picking up from Madhuresh, uh, we, we didn't call ourself the youth climate Movement when we started, and there is a shift now and like the Youth climate Movement and that movement integrates other calls. But when I started, we consider ourself part of a youth movement and working to create solidarity amongst youth within Brazil.

And, um, Brazil is, is a big country and looking to building solidarity with different, uh, youth from different contexts. This, uh, this is an element that was very important, looking to the local struggles and how the local struggles were interconnected with, uh, the injustice, social, um, economic and climate injustices.

And this I learned a lot, uh, working as a youth with other youth. There are a lot that I've learned that I bring to this global context. As you mentioned, I worked at a campaign, a global campaign now, and I feel that we land rights now maybe for those Yes. Land rights now. Yeah. Land rights now. Uh, it's a global campaign, um, working to support indigenous peoples and local communities fight for land rights worldwide.

And there are amazing, amazing campaigns and amazing struggles, groups, uh, peoples and movements that are fighting for, for the right. And there are some elements that, that are building the solidarity within the international, um, ecosystem. That it is hard. It demands a lot of work to make those connections, but it's also the aspects of the strengthening and look into the movements as their own self, their own peace.

Like not imposing, this is what I'm, I'm trying to say, like how. Occupying this position now and not imposing what are those global frameworks and still build, building the solidarity movement. I think this is, it's a place where I sit now that I, uh, constantly find myself reflecting on that.

Barbara: Thank you so much, Amanda. What I'm hearing, the three of you also say that it's also part of kind of redefining for yourself what it means to be in solidarity, to practice solidarity and, and later talk a bit also, or when is it being an ally or an allyship as you move through different places in your life and work and institutions.

So thank you. Thank you all three for sharing. So, um, so much already with us in this first. Um, introduction. So what we're doing today is look at solidarity through the lens of your experiences in spaces that link to climate, and biodiversity and, and all the issues that you have been mentioning both historically, what can we learn from that? What have you seen, what have you experienced that we, you know, should really. remember and cherish and rebuild where needed, where do movements and solidarity sit, um, in such a context?

So that's kind of the bigger question that that sits above our conversation. But before doing so, and you already alluded to this in your introductions. How has solidarity shaped and strengthened those movements in the work that you have been doing so far? Also build upon what the others have shared. What are those elements that we should really be looking for to take learning from?

Najma: I actually want to pick up on a point that, that Madhuresh actually raised and, and just to say to him, you know, that the work of the Global Tapestry of Alternatives is it's very inspiring work. I think sometimes I think you said that, you know, there's the, the sort of boarding, the procedural side of, of solidarity building, which is the press releases, which is the, you know, the, the action. But there's also the thinking part of it that when we build solidarity, we need to be able to tackle the, I would say, sometimes the roots and the principles of the very movements that we engaged.

And so initiatives like the global tapestry for alternatives, or an initiative that I used to be part of before, which was looking at, um, economic narratives and how you can challenge that. I think we need to build solidarity, not around only the influence and the connected movements, but around the thinking.

We aren't giving the support to the thinkers. Uh, you know, might not be economists. They might be philosophers or political sciences or sociologists because they don't speak climate or environment or economic reform in the language of economists, we need solidarity also to build the thinking and the ideas and then the movements for change.

And I think all of that requires that we do find ways I think that one of the contributors did so well that we respect, you know, the diversity of our agendas and, and we don't dilute the strength and the importance of that agenda when we come together around a common cause like climate justice. And I think it's possible, and I do think it's about, so some of the principles, I guess we are, we are heading there you know, finding that is such a wonderful term that came out from the work that you engage in Madhuresh, which is like, is this pluriverse of values and agendas and understanding and creating the space for that to exist with, with respect and understanding between them as you move, to, with the common agenda.

I think it's authenticity, the trust, accountability. It's with a whole lot of, you know, links, which I always hope. You know, authentically trying to represent, to give light to, to make visible what people are demanding and are needing. I think maybe let me pass it on to whoever likes to, to take on from here.

Madhuresh: As I'm listening to you, what I find is that we are fighting against a lot of hegemonies, which exist, but these are not only in terms of the Global North and the South, and they become very important. The kind of work which Amanda is doing or like I'm trying to do in the GTA. And these can exist very much even inside just an organization. And at the moment it becomes multi-issue because it has many also, uh, emerged from in a network. So say National Alliance of Peoples Movement. Uh, we had movement membership, which were a hundred people to a hundred thousand people. Now, when we try and draft a consensus and a document, a declaration on anything, then always the.

Those who have the bigger strength and all that comes and gets through a lot. So these hegemonies exist, uh, everywhere. So the idea to build that we really need to take everybody's voice gets reflected without harming the other. I. And I think that's, uh, the key to solidarity, that if we, while taking care of the demands of, say, the big landowners in a land rights struggle, then the people who do not have land, so sharecroppers or the agricultural workers, how do we make sure that the both their demands match?

And that's a consensus building exercise, which I think in the land rights now, what Amanda is trying to do or what I try to do in my own experience earlier. So that's something, a consensus always. Brings us and it's, it's a difficult job. It's not easy. But then inside that, I think there's a, still a moral compass.

And that moral compass we really have to adhere to, uh, especially when it concerns the work of solidarity. It cannot be that, uh, we've stand up for injustice at one place, but not for another. We cannot have hierarchies of injustice [00:21:00] or, uh, hierarchies of demand. It's not given. But at the same time, we really have to question our own inherent biases in the world we are living in.

Uh, I'm sure the Inequality podcast, you have talked about this when you talked about the Palestine issue, but the world we are living in today, it's very difficult. So just to give an example. Part of the Climate Global Climate Justice movement has been very focused on demanding increased renewable energy and this whole idea that we need for 1.5 degrees antegrade.

That's like a campaign and a slogan. Many of people are just uncritically advocating for policies and saying, so coming from India, I have two or three problems on that. One. We have a right wing government in power. Which is extremely intolerant of any kind of descent. It's Islamophobic. It's [00:22:00] trying to trample on any descent.

It's neoliberal and everything now. They have been very good. In, uh, renewable energy policies. They have set a target. They have the leader in the International Solar Alliance and everything. My colleagues in the environmental justice movement in the west and sometimes even in the global south, they're, they really applaud Modi saying that, well, he's doing an tremendous job, prime Minister. Let's go ahead. You are doing amazing work. As an activist who are social justice activists, climate justice activists, we are saying, no, you cannot load that person's initiative only because it fulfills one. It tick one box for you. You have to look at the everything.

I think, uh, it, it boils down to the fact that your solidarity has to understand a lot of these context. So I think that the many fault lines, which we really have to look at, it can be solved, which we engage enough if we start having dialogue.

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you so much. This actually also really speaks to me Madhures because I also was in those spaces and sitting in the global north, I have been very, very frustrated with some of my co uh, NGOs. Uh, and I guess it speaks also to what you say in your that, well, first of all it's about are you really willing to listen? Because you wrote a really great piece that will also share in the show notes about challenges with solidarity, I think above all, but other experience with solidarity between also NGOs and grassroots groups and all kind of different actors in India. And you say something there which is around something like, if you can't be an ally or show solidarity, at least don't make our work more difficult.

Um, and I guess it speaks a bit. Yeah. Can you say a little bit more about Yeah. Yes. About that piece maybe also and your experiences.

Madhuresh: So an example being that, uh, in the global south or wherever the renewed extractivism is happening there, most of the grassroots movements or even the NGOs who are working on the ground, they're making this demand no more extractivism.

Whereas the policy groups led by big NGOs or even many others and foundations pushing this demand saying, no, no, we need, the earth is facing a crisis. We need to do this. Now you are not even if you are not standing in solidarity with their demands because they're losing their land, livelihood, uh, forest, mountain, water, everything.

But then if you cannot stand in solidarity with them, at least don't make their job difficult by loading the efforts of the repressive regimes who are promoting those extractivism. And I think this is exactly what we felt when we were campaigning for a repeal of a land law in India. It was a British era, uh, land acquisition act. And then there were NGOs who were saying, well, we need land acquisition for development. Same argument every, every time that you need this for development. We need this for the betterment, for the larger good, public good. And the idea is that how can we keep sacrificing lives of the people who have the everything to lose.

I think, uh, that's why the social movements often are making, uh, those demands. And hat's why I made the argument that there has to be a moral compass to everything we do. It cannot just be about policies and, finance and X dollars and development.

Barbara: Yeah. Yeah. And that moral compass as a, as a person, as an individual, but also as a organization, as a movement.

Madhuresh: I think we really have to engage into what different, uh, what, uh, separates us. And there are inherent hierarchies. Uh, there are fault lines, there are race fault lines. There are, uh, hegemony, uh, there are developmental hegemony. Uh, there are power structures. There is, it is very systemic. Unless we question those, uh, we cannot, uh, actually get around this issue of breaking, uh, the question you were asking.

So rather than alternatives outside the existing, uh, neural liberal system, if we keep. Tinkering inside the neoliberal framework, we will never get that consensus, which we are trying to build, or, uh, trying to forge the solidarity where you will find support for your agenda from the global south or for the global majority. So that is something which we really have to at have at the heart of it.

Barbara: Capitalism is not helping. Amanda, do you wanna share something about. What you have seen working maybe in the movements that you're a part, you've been a part of, or the spaces or, or how we can indeed foster that moral compass and practice our solidarity.

Amanda: I think it's a big question, but what I see working is sharing stories and the to create empathy. And, and bridge the solidarity and, and bridge these inequality of balance, the difference of knowledge and difference of experiences. I just recently worked on a campaign and worked with land and environmental defenders in Argentina on this mining cases of lithium mining and in Extractivism. Displacing indigenous communities from their land just for the possibility of lithium mining, drilling on the, on the, on the region. And, and the stories were really powerful. I'm not saying that just the stories stopped, the lithium mining. So this is a question that it's still, uh, opened, but the story has created a chain of solidarity of all, all their communities in different parts of the world that are facing or might face, uh, the same issue. And this is the beginning of, or the continuation of a solidarity movement between, uh, the indigenous communities on those, on those places. I think it's an inspiration and it's also a reminder that there are people fighting and there are people that are leaving every day. So on that case, only the fact of protesting already, uh, caused by police violence, uh, for those communities. So it's, it's, everything is interconnected. Like we've been, we've been saying, uh, and we've been hearing, yeah, I, I feel like it's still, uh, it's a very powerful tool, but it's of course not, uh, it doesn't stand alone.

Najma: And I, I think probably the one thing, it actually links to stories. Um, but I think it's actually, I, I find that [00:30:00] working and again, with, with the gratitude to the, the upbringing and the, call it, the political education that I got from a very young age, but it's just recognizing and I find as I interact with, with the climate and, and biodiversity movement just is a need to actually understand the history of colonialism, of capitalism, the extraction, what it's meant. In the same way that a scientist, you know, biodiversity and climate scientists, we know the world is not flat. We know we have systems, but yet somehow when we are proposing, you know, pathways forward, we, we deal with the world as if it's flat.

don't understand that, that the same way that. these systems have scarred our climate and our, and our environment. It's scarred our societies and that we've got to find, solutions. So just really understanding those histories, understanding the political context. I mean, I, I remember seeing this image of, climate actives on stage and speaking about, you know, the, um, the situation in, in, in Palestine, in Gaza, and someone saying to, well, I didn't come here to your political event, I came here to talk about the climate. [Barbara: It's this happened in a march in Amsterdam] How do you think about the two in separation?

And for some of us, it's impossible. It's the same way that my said, how do I disconnect the fact that this government, that seemingly is very progressive in, its, in its policymaking and regulations is at the same time perpetrating, you know, in injustices that it will impact those, communities and, and groups.

So I, I do think there's a need for, um, for storytelling at multiple levels, you know, within the movement and within, building to build that allyship you need to build. Champions and to be able to build a champion, you need them to understand the, the stories, to understand the perspectives and to make space for, for just alternative ways outside of this system that is not this system of extraction and exploit that has not ended for the global majority. And I do think, you know, it's both a, it's a heart project as much as it as the head project. You know, we need both and we need to give visibility to this incredible thinkers and dreamers and doers that, that are just, they're not on the stages. I think Rishi said something in your article, you know, you don't have to be on the stage to be someone you know that is really pushed forward. That's a space that I really wish we can carve, you know, more spaces for, for thinkers from the global majority.

Madhuresh: Yeah. Uh, you know, if I can add to the conversation we are having, I just feel that, you know, if you're part of a movement, then why? Are we building solidarity and for what purpose? And I think that's the, uh, question which often in the movement people ask. And I was just thinking and writing that, okay, we have the solidarity for building people's power. For advancing an emancipatory agenda, and, uh, for building a better world.

And if that solidarity cannot, uh, build that, then how do we. Try and do it. And that's why as movements sometimes because you're a political animal, you're a political organization, then you often have to look at a very strategic solidarity where you can seek solidarity from people who have no choice.

And of often they're criticized for their, uh, and this, and it's also not black and white. Uh, it, we really have to think that the. While I did talk about the moral compass, but at the same time, sometimes there are moments when you really have to make a strategic choices. Sometimes we really have to find in between.

It doesn't mean compromising in your position, but at the same time giving the other person a chance to understand and a solution that, Hey, you don't have to oppose us, but can you. Amplify that demand so that you are also, uh, so that's how we build solidarity. And sometimes we really have to find these in-between ways of building.

So it may be a nice headline that 1.5 Gigawatt of renewable electricity is good for 1.5 degrees Ingrade. But can we look at how do we reduce the demand of the so much electricity when the half of the world doesn't have that much? So I think we really have to turn things around on its head and. Simple doesn't work simple.

Solidarity, uncritical, solidarity doesn't help anyone. So I think it really has to be an emancipatory politics, which can actually, at the end of the day, uh, build real and genuine solidarity without sacrificing the people or without hurting, uh, movements and, uh, global majority.

Barbara: Yeah, thanks. That political education is coming through very strongly. Yeah. But I think that the example that you were giving earlier, I wonder if that is, wouldn't be allyship finding strategic allies and kind of tailoring towards that or, or how do you see the difference? Or maybe, I'm also curious, Najma, how do you see the difference between allyship and solidarity, which is something that comes up often.

Najma: I mean, it's something I'm figuring out as I weave in my life inside and outside of civil society, you know, more, um, you know, research spaces. Um, I mean there was something that Madhuresh you said that, um, to be able to say the same thing no matter where you are. And I think there's something about that to be able to, and that's where you build trust that.

The movements that you're building trust with, know, and see you and trust you because the message stays and, and that's the model compass, you know, keeping it stable, you know, throughout that and understanding the space that you can, I mean, I think I found myself in both positions, you know, in the civil society movement working with, social movements, advocating for land rights, for decent work, for gender rights, um, for clean water. And also in the spaces where I've become much more of an ally where I do think I have, you know, this is a moment. And in a sense I almost feel like at that moment you have to step back more. You have to then be able to step back and give the spaces everywhere you can because it's such a difficult, uh, space of influence and advocacy.

And I think there's a lot more careful managing yourself in when you are, you know, in that position of allyship, because then I think it is, um, yeah, you become like almost accountable to that movement that you are, you know, that you're, that you're seeking to, to support. No answers Barbara, but. I guess struggles in trying to figure it out and understand my positionality as well as I, you know, work towards something that has always remained constant, you know, which is, you know, I think beautifully put moderation and emancipatory politics, you know, an emancipatory movement for climate, social, and ecological justice.

Madhuresh: Barbara, if I could just add to what the political education question is said, and a very real example, so farmers movement in 20 20, 21 when we had big farmers vegetation in India for a whole year, they camped around the Delhi for millions of farmers. They just camped 800 farmers died in that. Now farmers are generally seen as a very, the image of a farmer is a man.

So it's a very patriarchal organization and, uh, most of the leadership is that. But then women's movement came and gave them the support. Farmers' Movement took it, but how in a solidarity also becomes a chance for political education. And that meant that the Farmers' organization had to improvise upon their ways, what they were doing, and then they were organizing, um.

Female farmers, uh, parliament, people's parliament, uh, there. So ki mala, kisan, sun, uh, sunset. So there were these different kinds of, uh, inter in, in the question of while building solidarity, this inter education inter issue education happens, and this an emancipatory politics.

Barbara: Thank you so much. Those are such beautiful examples, and I guess it also speaks a little bit to why it's harder when people are both far away and have a very different lived reality to do it. I hope not impossible, but requires a lot of extra work. Amanda, I'm very curious hearing this, how does [00:39:00] this sit with you?

Amanda: I'm being very reflexive about, uh, what you're saying and I don't know. There are a lot of questions on how we do it, right. I think it's, it's. Both our own positionality and where do we sit and what, what is the work that we are doing and how we are contributing, standing in solidarity, building solidarity movements, but also being allies.

I'm sitting with the question of resource mobilization for, for creating those networks, creating those movements. At the same time, I'm thinking a lot about creating solutions that challenge the capitalist system and challenge the logic of the donors relationships and this kind of relationships that are also are sustaining those movements.

Not all the movements, I have to be clear here, but it still are part of those relationships and how we create this. Solutions outside the system. And yeah, I agree with everything you've both said of how the, it's not a topic that it stands alone, it's, it's a connection with, with different struggles and we learn it's.

With others all the time. And I've been learning with you a lot. Yeah. I think it's more connections like this and conversations like this that help me and hope others to reflect on how to build this immense atory solidarity, uh, movements. Yes. Thank you. Then we're gonna. Almost round up. Yeah. I just wanna check if there's something, curious.

If there is a hope. So we've talked quite a bit actually about what we'd like to see happen and what we think would be useful and, and also the challenges of course, but ways of trying to navigate those. But [00:41:00] if there would be one hope that you have maybe for this year in which things are looking a little daunting at times, I'm wondering if there's something from each of you that you'd like to share.

Or is there anything else for listeners that they can do or take action or, um, anything you'd like to close off with Amanda?

Amanda: Yeah, no, I want to comment on the, I think. From what I'm listening and what I hope it's for more collaboration instead of competition because yeah, I've, I've heard about like where we come from. It's, it's a competitive, a competition, uh, for resources, for space, for visibility. But how can we collaborate and give space and create space together? I think on the togetherness is the hope. I think from my side, I'm really interested to see, because I do think that the past year and a half, um, has changed how we connect to one another geopolitically on the global stage.

I would really like to begin to see what the new constellation of, you know, um. Will be like in the world, um, where I do think we need to, um, yeah, reinfuse, you know, our multilateral and our intergovernmental processes and systems with a lot more transparency, accountability, and, and democracy. So I'm, I'm quite interested to see what this year's going to feel like because it's having some of the changes we've seen have had.

I think in some places there's quite devastating impacts, but I think it's also pushes us to just think about, you know, working for change in a different way and collaborating with, with different people and, and movements and places. So I think sometimes out of that difficult moment of, you know, losing access to funding has potentially pushed us into a space of.

Of seeing one another maybe for the first time. You know, as, um, as, as we build, I think a movement that challenges and helps us try to have that moral compass drive us, you know, as a, as a collective at the international level. Because I certainly feel we've, we've lost that. Thank you. Nightmare. Well, well, what gives me hope?

I would, uh, you know. On one hand, we are really facing the age of disinformation where everything seems to be like, uh, you really cannot believe anything what comes out of it. But what I do feel that there is a curiosity and people are trying to get through this smog of misinformation. And, uh, this curiosity is visible in young people. So there are a lot of young people who are trying to, uh, make sense of the world out of desperation because they're desperate. They're like, this cannot go on. So they are trying to get out of their own comfort zone. I. And to me that's so full. Uh, because moment you get out of your own comfort zone, then you also start looking at, uh, where you don't exist, uh, in isolation.

You're part of this big, uh, ecosystem where everything is interconnected and that interconnectedness is what actually, uh, that understanding of interconnectedness is what actually will, uh, make us a much better person and a much better world we live in. And I think, uh. Slowly that we is beginning to unravel.

And this is unraveling precisely because of all the wrong reasons. We are talking about the rise of right-wing, the desperation, the climate crisis and everything. People are beginning to look out of their nest or their cocoon. So I think that is something which gives me hope, uh, that this crisis is not just futile, that will not only crush us, but something beautiful will come out of it. Uh, I, I keep thinking of that.

Barbara: Thank you. Thank you so much for being with us today. Najma, Madhuresh, Amanda for this conversation and, and being part also of this solidarity journey that we're on, both in this podcast and beyond. So thank you. Thank you again for sharing your time and wisdom and visions, and I'm sure there will be more conversations to come.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Barbara.

Barbara: Thank you all. Thank you so much. Thanks. Thank you for listening to today's episode. If you enjoyed the conversation. Please subscribe, leave a review and spread the word so more people can join. This really helps us check out the super interesting resources in show notes, and of course, watch this space for more inspiring episodes coming up.

Ciao!