S5 Ep4: Solidarity in times of autocratization

As democracy and civic space are under attack in many places across the globe we explore what solidarity means when basic rights are quickly eroded. In this final episode of the 'Let's talk about solidarity' series* we dive into what solidarity can look like when autocrats and anti-rights groups gain power, and some groups are hit harder or earlier than others? 

We do this with another two amazing guests, Akshita Siddula, community organizer and leadership coach from Baltimore, US, and Rafael Barrio de Mendoza Zavallos, researcher and Cambridge Phd candidate from Lima, Peru. 

What can we learn from what is happening in the US and Peru when it comes to who is affected and who is standing up? How can we foster solidarity and what role can it play in defending rights and possibly reimagining democracy altogether?

As many look at today's political developments with great concern, this conversation is timely and full of good ideas. So please grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation!

Resources:

More on Akshita's work: https://youtu.be/JoMbZVXogeo?si=kEzHxRxur1x6iy84  

More on Rafael's work: https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/fellows/2021/rafael-barrio-de-mendoza 

Blog Rafael 'Peruvian civil society is under attack': https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/blogs/peruvian-civil-society-is-under-attack 

*This episode is part of the People vs Inequality season ‘Let’s talk about Solidarity’ and a project of Atlantic Fellows for Social and Economic Equity (AFSEE) trying to understand, critique and reimagine solidarity in these challenging times. See https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/blogs/afsee-incubation-labs-lets-talk-about-solidarity and https://www.canva.com/design/DAGbiB8gN2Q/KfaoUMAKBy0bnqEUv6dCQg/view 

Credits: The People vs Inequality Podcast is a co-production between Barbara van Paassen (host, creator) and Elizabeth Maina (producer). This episode was edited by Charles Righa.

Transcript

People vs Inequality S5ep4 - Solidarity in times of autocratization

Barbara: Welcome to the People Versus Inequality podcast. In a time of crisis and fast change, this podcast is a space to reflect and learn with change makers on how to tackle inequality. In this fifth season, we dive into solidarity and we try to understand, critique and reimagine solidarity in these challenging times.

It is a result of two years of conversations with a group of Atlantic fellows, and today is our last episode of what has been a powerful journey. In today's episode, we look at democracy in crisis and autocratization on the rise. Experiences from the US, Peru, and my home country of the Netherlands.

Very different contexts, but all facing serious attacks on democracy and rights of people, and some groups in particular. What does solidarity mean in such a context? Who is most affected? Who are the frontline defenders and where does this leave those that may not feel the same impact just yet? And how can solidarity help us not only defend rights, but maybe even reimagine democracy altogether?

These are questions I personally think about a lot, and I'm very curious to hear our two wonderful guests, co-Atlantic Fellows, reflect upon. Akshita Siddula is a community organizer and leadership coach based in Baltimore, US, who has set up various frontline organizations and is well placed to share insights from the communities and movements she works with at this crucial time.

Rafael Barrio de Mendoza is a researcher from Peru and Cambridge PhD student with a long history of working with indigenous and mining affected communities who are at the far forefront of the latest surge in both resistance and oppression in the country. They'll both sure give us food for thought. My name is Barbara van Paassen the host of the People Versus Equality podcast, and I'm very excited for today's episode and guests.

So please grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation!

Welcome Ashita. Welcome Rafa. 

Hi, Barbara. Thank you for, for organizing this conversation. It's good to be here. Thanks for having us. Well, thank you for joining, for joining in on this conversation. I'm, I'm just wondering, uh, how are you today and maybe where are you, where are you calling in from at this moment?

Akshita: Uh, it is morning here in Baltimore, Maryland in the US where I'm calling in from, and I'm doing well despite, um, the current news of our country. I think I'm in a better mood right now 'cause I'm talking with you all and I didn't read the news this morning before we joined, so.

Barbara: I can imagine that that might be needed at times.

We're definitely gonna be, um, talking about the situation that is, uh, unfolding as we speak. Uh, Rafa.

Raffael: I am in Lima in Peru, uh, doing some field work for my project and how I'm feeling today, I don't know, I have mixed feelings because I read the news today. Uh, but yeah. Uh, happy to, to yeah. To to review this news and having this conversation with you.

Yeah. I'm very honored to have both of you, um, because as I said, there's, you're in these different contexts in which a lot is happening. Um, and, and we see that, that there are patterns in, in de democratic, uh, attacks across the globe. Right. Can you give me, um, a glimpse of something maybe, maybe that you read today, Rafa, that, um, stood out for you as something that concerned you?

Rafa: Well, I, I was reading about kind of before, coming, uh, to having this conversation, I was reading about, uh, this field that Elon Musk and, and Donald Trump behaving in the way they are behaving and, and having a lot of strings of power now in their hands. And that we are kind of dependent in some way, uh, on the whims of these guys is, is kind of telling of where, where the, where the state of democracies no. And not, not only in the US because, uh, kind of what happens in the US uh, has ramifications, uh, all over the world, uh, in many, in many ways.

Reading the news on what's happening in the US and California and LA specifically, the US is not a perfect democracy. Uh, it never has been, but uh, yeah, it's in, in, in some sense, uh, uh, institutional architecture for kind of protecting rights that are ongoing and is there is a progressivity in protecting these rights that is now under attack. So that's worrying. 

And of course, in Peru, uh. We are in a, in a very dire state in terms of institutions. I, I wouldn't say, and there is, this is a kind of a hot debate between academics and, and of course kind of the public conversations that we have in  Peru about, if we are still a democracy or what kind of democracy or which, kind of stretches of democracy we still have. So that's the state of affairs now, and I haven't imagined kind of, I don't know, five or 10 years ago that that's going to be the conversations that we are having now.

Barbara: Yeah. I guess that's something that, uh, other people might recognize this feeling of, okay, this is, we did not expect things to go so bad or so fast. Akshita, I see you nodding also as, as Rafa is speaking. Um, yeah. We're, we're, we're to, we mainly want to focus here today on what is the behavior that we're gonna, you know, put against, uh, the evils that we see. But is there something you wanna share in terms of what's on top of mind, um, as you see the situation unfolding in the uUS 

Akshita: Yeah, I mean, uh, Rafa mentioned it of, it's kind of hard, I think, anywhere, um, in the world right now to not be paying attention to this slow erosion, the steady erosion of democratic norms that we're seeing here in the US. And it's definitely picked up pace in the past several months under the new administration.

And it is very much. Auto, uh, autocratization in slow motion. Um, although it's, it's picking up speed and, um, what's happening in California with the protests in LA is this perfect example of how we're having, uh, a militarized federal response. To, uh, civilians, to citizens gathering. Of course the attacks have been disproportionately targeting immigrant communities, working class communities, um, trans communities, black communities, and um, there's been a lot of pushback, uh, not just from within those communities, but it's been inspiring to see how there has been a strong response in mass mobilization in solidarity.

Um, and there have been tens of thousands, uh, of people who are in more privileged positions, especially around immigration, folks who have citizenship and are not at risk, um, who've been showing up alongside labor groups and faith groups. Um, you know, literally taking to the streets, uh, to talk about the fact that our civil liberties are being, uh.

Curved or being affected. So a perfect example of how quickly, um, a country that has had a, a reputation of being democratic and protecting democracy. I think America has often prided itself as, uh, as being the police, uh, for the international stage and forum for democracy.

Um, how quickly things have unraveled on our own end. And also a, a perfect example of how we weren't necessarily doing democracy right in the first place, which allows for it to collapse so quickly. Um, so difficult, difficult times for us in the States currently, um, with, you know, without much hope for it improving.

I think it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Um, so what we're seeing now is just the start, but we are expecting escalation.

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, and also for touching already upon, you know, how this ties in with solidarity, um, and some of what you're seeing already. I'm very curious to hear more about that later. [In the Netherlands] I just did a research actually on that slow erosion of democracy and, and what, what do you then see happening?

Um, and I think here the process is much is slower in a sense. The norms are being strongly affected. There's a far right government in place that's attacking certain communities, particularly Muslim communities. Uh, trans people are, are also at risk. and migration and, and refugees are always, uh, a topic that's being used to gain power and also, I think distract from other things in a way, uh, but with real consequences in people's lives. So that's also why this que question around solidarity and who, who is affected and who acts and who can be in support and how do you do that is very much on top of mind for me. Um, I'm curious because, um, Akshita, you are in Baltimore, um, and you've long been, uh, working in kind of organizing different communities, um, from health to food to other, um, topics.

Could you share a bit more about kind of what you do, maybe what drives you and. How is that work maybe affected also today?

Akshita: Yeah, thanks. I think, you know, the, the consistent well before the, the protests around immigration have started in la the current government has been consistently, um, and swiftly gutting our public health infrastructure, um, and ripping out essential funds that we need, especially right down at the community level to engage in a lot of the public health preventative work that we do. Um, and a lot of the environmental justice work that we've been doing here in Baltimore.

A common phrase that we use to explain the situation is food apartheid this, um, which is a symptom of systemic disinvestment. We've got entire swaths of neighbors and neighborhoods in the city that live miles away from the closest grocery store that have to have to you know, take two, three multiple buses to be able to buy food, fresh food. And we have blocks of vacant land sitting around that isn't being developed, that isn't being used. Um, and at the end of the day, the conversation is not just about food, it's, it's about who gets to have, um, access to essential resources. It's about who gets to live with dignity, who controls this land, who's, um, allowed the, the ability to have a healthy life.

And, um, this is where you kind of see all the overlaying, impacts of environmental racism. You're seeing the fast food is abundant here, but fresh produce is out of reach. All of these things have been an example of how decades of systemic racism and have created this deep, deep harm. And a lot of the communities have been organizing internally as a response because our institutions have.

What are, what have led us here, right? Um, the, the people in power, the, the organizations in power, the institutions that have turned a blind eye, the decades of redlining and incarceration and neglect have created these communities. And the only response that has been powerful and positive, um, and effective, has come directly from the community.

So we've seen, I've worked alongside black and brown organizers who are working to reclaim this land and to grow food. Not just to feed people, but to also to build sovereignty. You know, they're teaching people how to take control of what was always, um, originally theirs. Um, and. Addressing direct community needs, whether it's building green spaces for the children, for families to have access to parks and playgrounds, um, or building the, the farms that we need to grow the food that we need to feed our families.

Um, so for me, this has been such a beautiful example of a frontline democracy, right? It's, uh, happening without institutional support, but it's built on the care and trust of the communities and, and the solidarity that they have with each other.

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you so much. That, so that's what it can look like. Also, um, if only there is at least this space, and I guess some support is how is this, is this work, um, now directly affected by what's happening? Like, do you see the impacts visibly on the ground? 

Akshita: There have been all sorts of side effects and symptoms as a response to what's happening in the in the government. We've seen a lot of funding disappear overnight to do a lot of this work. There were massive programs at the state level on the federal level that have been rolled back.

So grants that we had been applying to and expecting to get money that was promised and set aside for the communities to do this kind of environmental justice work has been, um. Taken back overnight. Um, and so there's been a lot of effort that was exerted by these communities, by the organizers to, to say, we want this money. We have these plans and proposals for this money, and the money is gone. The funding opportunities have disappeared. Um, and we've also seen that a lot of the communities that we're working in are having a lot of immediate crisis needs around the fact that there's been so much activation around ICE in our neighborhoods. Um, there are neighborhoods in Baltimore that are largely Hispanic, and you can see, people are not on the streets, people are not coming out, they're not going to get groceries, and of course the funding that we have access to do anything has been disappearing.

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you for, um, for sketching that out. That's, that's really, um, worrisome and I, I wonder, but we'll get to that. What that does to solidarity or what that asks of. People, um, that might want to be in solidarity. I'll get back to you with, with that question. Um, Rafa, could you say something about, um, kind of what you do, um, and, and your history, working with civil society and research, um, in Peru and across. How you see, um, the current political situation impacting the communities you work with. 

Rafa: Well, I am, I am doing research. on the impacts of an old spill that happened here in Peru three years ago, that impacted, uh, fishing communities, uh, that are now quite vulnerable to, uh, yeah. Economic shocks, the livelihoods of these fishing families. Um. I have been working kind of all over these years in Peru in environmental issues, environmental, uh, uh, struggles, uh, related to mining in the Andes, uh, and, uh, climate change as well, but mostly focus, focusing the Andes and, uh, a couple of experiences in the Amazon as well.

I haven't organized in a way that, for instance, Akshita, is doing, but, uh, I have been working in, in, in NGOs and civil society organizations prior to going to the, to the uk, uh, here in Peru. Um. Mostly producing research and trying to, uh, expand the, uh, the rights for information, for accountability, um, for prior consultation, uh, for better ways to deal with, uh, environmental struggles in institutional settings and so on. That entails just engaging with policy makers and, but of course, kind of mobilizing the, the, the, the agendas and the claims of, uh, many organizations, grassroots organizations. 

So what is happening, uh, from my point of view in Peru is that, uh, the environmental conflicts or related to environmental harm, uh, were the main or one of the, one of the main, political dynamics here in Peru in the last 20 years, so many of the kind of national agendas, uh, have been crafted out of, uh, environmental struggles. Uh, because Peru is a, is an exporter of minerals, mostly is, our economy is not that complex. So we are, I think, in the top five of copper, uh, production.

Copper has been kind of a mineral that is, eh, is important for the energy transition. So we are, eh, riding the wave of, of, of, of this expansion. But of course, copper is, is mined in, um, in very sensitive areas of the Andes mostly, uh, where peasant communities, uh, do their living, you know, and that's, that has prompted a lot of tensions and conflicts, and the civil society architecture, uh. Has been built around many of these conflicts as well.

So to provide, uh, counseling advice to provide resources, to provide information, to communities that are in the front lines of these kind of conflicts and tensions. Uh, so because many of them were, uh, and still are of course, matters of human rights and not only kind of rights for, uh, kind of a proper job or, uh, or a safety net and so on, and usually this, this kind of conflict has, uh, has endured a, uh, a very repressive response on the part of the, of the state and in successive governments. Uh, but uh, uh, kind of a sequence of, of protections has been, have been built to channel institutionally these kind of conflicts. What is happening now is that we are witnessing the erosion of this kind of institutional settings.

And of course, uh, in terms of funding, um, and in terms of what are the, uh, the, which is the scope that the civil society organizations to display their work, not to protect rights and to help, to move life resources in favor of their rights of communities. And, and kind of recently a couple of months ago, a new law, uh, has been enacted that is, uh, basically, uh, crippling the possibilities of NGOs to protect rights and even.

Uh, put them in the, in the space of, uh, yeah. Of, uh, dangerous political activities in the, in the, in the understanding of the government and something not, not just kind of to. To, to wonder a little bit, but something that we have to understand, uh, in Peru or about Peru is that we are not in, in the context of a, um, kind of an electoral sanctioned, uh, graph of power of some extreme rights groups is a very, very complex and messy, and even political scientists here in Peru is struggling to, to understand and to account for this, but it's more like alliance, a coalition of many interest, some of them conservative and pre, pretty extreme, but some of them just mercantilist that are trying to undermine the regulatory state and the, and this and the protections of rights just to advance many ways of kind of very, eh, harmful economies, eh?

Yeah. It's is just open season now and that's what we are witnessing and. Kind of the next year we have elections and the, the outlook is not looking good. 

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Um, and I think in both your stories, the, the kind of structural historic inequalities are very clear, uh, the flaws that have long been there, uh, and Rafa we have spoken about kind of the repression of indigenous, uh, peoples in, in Peru. Um, and, uh, I mean the real surge in that, of course in this kind of political crisis, but also the, the economic interests, I guess, that are, that are clearly visible in in both these contexts and probably in, in all of the countries that are facing democratic decline.

Um, I'm, I'm wondering, um, as we're talking about solidarity, if, um. We heard already actually that great example of view of what democracy could look like if you organize things locally with community. Could you say something about, um, that solidarity that you refer to also at the beginning that people are showing up, um, for others? Yeah. What is, what is emerging in this current, in this current moment when it comes to solidarity? 

Akshita: Yeah. Uh, I think solidarity is all about shared struggle, right? Not just having sympathy from a distance, but engaging in direct action. Having, making a commitment, engaging in mutual risk, and standing with other people, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because you recognize that when their freedoms and when their liberation is at risk it impacts you as well, right? It's tied to your own liberation. 

Um, and so I think there's been an ongoing conversation in the US about the systems of oppression that have been at play within our government, within our institution. Um, and the solidarity has been, um, at times quiet, but it's becoming a lot more vocal and a lot more active in the past several, uh, months, especially.

We're seeing that people who are not as affected or stepping in, um, and exercising the privilege that they have and relinquishing some of the privilege that they have. Not just to stand with the, the groups that are being affected, um, but also to to follow the leadership of those who are on the front lines.

Because the organizing and the activism around this work has always been led by people of color. It's always been led by those who've been the most impacted, right? So the marginalized folks are the ones who've been leading the, taking the lead. Um, and we're seeing, um, I think in, in a really clear fashion allies and those who are standing in solidarity with us who are not just falling in, um, joining us, but also falling in line and willing to let us take the lead, willing to listen, and recognize that the communities that have are the most impacted are the ones that who can determine like what the next steps are, determine what the solutions are, um, and we are joining to do the work and make the effort. 

I'm an immigrant. My family are directly affected by the policies of the current administration, and we're seeing so many other groups who in the past haven't necessarily mobilized or felt the need to mobilize are now showing up in large numbers, um, because they recognize that immigrants are their neighbors. Um, and they're willing to listen to what we are saying about whether or not these policies are fair or right. Um, and they're taking our lead when we are saying, this is the pathway to justice. And so that has been really refreshing to see solidarity and action in that way of people exercising their support and their allyship, but also their privilege in ways that have been really protective.

Um, there are folks who've come to marches, who've come to community events to say, I am a citizen and I'm not at risk. So I, um, can be here as somebody who's witnessing, who's protecting, who's intervening. One such example was back around Easter in our. As I mentioned, we have largely Hispanic neighborhoods in Baltimore that have been really in a place of fear for the past several months with the ice activity in, um, in Baltimore.

And they were having their, every year on Good Friday, they do, um, the steps of the cross where they walk around the their own neighborhood, and it's the entire congregation. It's hundreds of people that show up and, um, it's a very meaningful and impactful, uh, moment for them in practicing their faith.

Many families were expressing to their pastor, uh, to their father that they were uncomfortable and really feeling scared about coming out. They didn't wanna put themselves at risk, but they also didn't wanna invalidate their own values and their own faith by not showing up to do something that means so is so central to their faith.

Um, and so the, the father of this church got the word out, um, to other community groups, other churches, and so many people showed up who, like me are not Christian at all, but have the protection of citizenship to come and say, we will line the outside of this walk. So there were hundreds of congregants who came, and the edges of that entire group and the back were all surrounded by folks who didn't participate in that church, who were not neighbors in that neighborhood, but who wanted to come and protect those neighbors' ability to do this.

Um, and it was such a beautiful example of, um, of seeing that those who are not affected are stepping into the front lines or stepping into the way of, you know, harm's way, unfortunately, to do what they need to do to protect their neighbors. And I think you're seeing that time and time again.

There's so many videos online of people who are not just bystanding and witnessing. They're, they're intervening, they're trying to get involved, they're stepping in. And that's what's giving me a lot of hope in this movement because if it was just the groups that were affected, um. To, to stand up for ourselves it would never be enough. Um, but we're seeing that it's not just us, it's our allies who are joining us. 

Barbara: Wow. Thank you. I have Goose bumps as you're speaking, because this is what I'd love to see also happening in the Netherlands. And of course we're not, we're not yet, or hopefully we will not be in the place where you are now, but I, I'm, yeah. This is not, uh, a given that people do that. Um, and I, as I still see a lot of people that think, well, it doesn't, it's not so bad, you know, it's not really affecting me. That might even, I mean, there's, of course racism is quite widespread, so they might not even be as concerned about certain groups. So I, I'm, I'm very curious, is it that it has to get that bad for this to happen? Or is there, is there something that we can learn from, from where it is happening? What do you think is enabling, unleashing this, this type of solidarity at the moment. What's helping, what would help? 

Akshita: That's a great question, and I don't know if I have the, the full answer to that. I think part of it is what you said. I think sometimes it really has to get this bad for people to kind of be woken up from the complacency or the passiveness. I think there has been, none of this is new, right? The tensions, the, the racism, everything that's underlying this current moment of crisis has been there for decades. None of this is new, but I think people have been, uh, okay with making statements and making donations, um, but not really showing up in any other meaningful way.

Uh, but now we're seeing in real time, um. Families being ripped out of their homes, families being separated, and we're seeing the complete disregard for legal process. We're seeing the violence with which these authorities are acting, which these agents are acting with when they are coming in and separating families, without warrants, without any notification.

They're not labeling themselves, they're not wearing uniforms, right? They're just coming in and using brute force and relying on their authority to do that. And I think that is what is really alarming, because that is something I think Americans are used to hearing about and reading about in other countries.

Somewhere else halfway around the world we're used to seeing, such striking, um, abuse of power, uh, in other institutions. And for the first time we're seeing it in our neighborhood. We're seeing it down the street. And I think that has really shaken people out of their passive complacency and really shaken them out of this revery and realizing that they need to be doing something active because it is a moment of time before it comes for them, right? It comes for all of us. So I think yes, sometimes it really does have to get this bad for people to be that active, um, for people to show up in these sustained accountable ways that we we're seeing now. Um, and hopefully this, this momentum keeps going and, and the movement keeps growing and there's more people who join in.

Barbara: I'm curious, Rafa, how about you, you touched upon already a little bit, um, um, on solidarity in the Peruvian context. Could you say something more about what's happening? How are people maybe mobilizing, showing up for others across - or not - different groups. 

Rafa: Yeah, it's, it's, it is a, it's a difficult question to answer. Um, I will say that, um, because we had very extensive, and in a way very violent, uh, demonstrations, uh, after, after President Castillo's self coup, three years ago.

Many of his base mobilized and his base was mainly peasent communities, peasent federations, a part of the, of the teachers unions, felt that at the time that articulated many of the, of the grievances of, of, of these communities and these, uh, and these constituencies, no. So it felt like a, um, a vindication of sorts of, kind of a more racial sociological dictation in the, in the, kind of, in the, in the national political arena, uh, to elect, uh, a figure like that.

These demonstrations, uh, were, uh, repressed very badly police, uh, Castillos, by pre vice president took office, unleashing many in, in many sense, is a very repressive state, uh, of affairs. 

Barbara: What happened in the kind of civil society space when that repression was happening of the protestors? Did you see people standing up for each other? 

Rafa: Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, because this was a very, uh, intricate political agenda, the Castillos one, uh, civil Society, of course, uh, yeah. Stand up for the, for the rights of protest, civil rights, political rights, and of course there were 50 killings on the part of the police.

So it was kind of untenable in terms of democratic rights. Uh, the, the, we still don't, don't have kind of accountability on that regard. Kind of the, the people that are responsible for these killings are still in the government and they are protected. Uh, even, even is, is to blame, uh. So even though civil society or some sector of the civil society didn't share the political agenda of this, of this movement, civil society justice stand for kind of protecting rights, mobilizing lawyers seeking to demand the due process of many of the people that were detained, on the grounds of, violent demonstrations, uh, that - of course it, they happened, but, they weren't the main way of protesting as usually happens that we are seeing in the, in the US as well. Kind of usually this, this kind of, uh, street violence is, is magnified, uh, for the purpose of just kind of framing the as violent. This repression, has had a very chilling effect on demonstrations.

So we are now seeing, because we are, we are, uh. We are enduring a, a, a crisis of, uh, uh, of security. Now we are witnessing, we're, uh, kind of high rates of crime extortion. And it's a, it's a phenomenon that is targeting, uh, small businesses, the livelihoods of very vulnerable people. So we are seeing more like, uh, a kind of the last demonstrations that, uh, that, uh, happen in here in, in Perdue are related to kind of just imagine safety, you know? Mm. Uh. So that's an opening that can, that can kind of bring together people again, and we are going to see, but there are wounds.

Uh, but, and, and repression has had a chilling effect I don't know, it's, it's difficult to, to, to kind of, to have a proper sense of that, of the mood. But I think that there is a cynicism in a way. But you have more localized struggles that are productive in kind of, uh, building, uh, coalitions just to, just to keep the, the opposition interaction.

No, with something that I am looking in my research kind of fishing collectives that were impacted by all spill, and they are carrying out the, the kind of the political activity with their own means. Of course, they, they rely in, in, in some aspects with the work of civil society in terms of kind of, uh, kind of amplifying their voices, doing advocacy and so on.

But they are the ones that are carrying now the, the, the main weight of the struggle, as Akshita said, for the, for the US and Baltimore. No. [Yeah.] So that's something that is, is, is bringing hope. But we'll see kind of the, the kind of, the look is not, is not looking, is, it's not good. 

Barbara: Yeah, the situation sounds is very dire. Um, and we've passed, we've talked about it. I'm curious if there's any kind of, um, other inspiring examples. I know that, for example, in terms of documenting what's happening, I think that was a strong, something really strong that was happening, that people were filming taking risks also in doing that kind of citizen journalism.

Uh, I'm curious because I know, I know Peru a little bit and I know Lima is, is also very unequal city with some people having a lot of wealth, um, uh, mainly white Peruvians. And I'm wondering, has there been any surprises in terms of, you know, people taking risk, uh, as Akshita was describing for the us? Have you seen people kind of taking up new means and um, ways of supporting the communities?

Rafa: Yeah, um. Yeah. As I, I was saying kind of the wounds of the, of the 2021 election are running deep, are beginning to heal in many ways. Uh, kind of more this interclass coalitions that we, that we had in terms of anti Fujimorism now this, this coalition of progressives and centuries and centrist and social movements that oppose the, yeah, the project of Fujimorism.

This was the, the political alliance not formalized that kind of just sustain the, the, the, the poli the political activity in many ways as well. And this is a coalition that was, uh, was hurt and was dismantled in many ways and was an interclass coalition in the sense kind of, we have middle classes, of course middle classes are kind of very, very heterogeneous here in Peru.

But the ones that show up to support, , other agendas, more grassroots agendas, uh, now are beginning to have more like a, um. Yeah, in the face of, uh, of the, of, of, of crime, for instance, that are kind of, they're having a very dire effect on the livelihoods of, of people. And of course in the advance of many, many, uh, illegal economies as illegal mining that is very violent as well.

And some openings are, are beginning to, to, to take place in the sense of kind of Yeah. The political meditations and the political empathy and of course solidarity. But the, this is still, and because we are, we are mediated by a very fragmented and polarizing, uh, uh, infrastructure.

No, uh, in the way of social media and so on. And we have our, uh, will be Trump-like figures that are kind of putting a lot of money to obfuscate the conversations and just to, yeah. To make more difficult to have these kind of coalitions and alliances. So I, I think that there is a level of disorientation, uh, and, we have to see what happens when the elections, are close to to happen. Uh, what kind of solidarities are going to show up in, in and which kind of agendas are going to be supported. 

Barbara: Thanks. I think it's interesting when there's conversations about what is the right approach or what means are we going to use, and I really liked what you said, Akshita, that people are taking leadership from those being most affected because that's something I see a lot, um, a lot of tensions around, um, that. People with maybe more privilege or people in certain spaces have ideas on what should be the way to do things, and that's not always the same. So I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm curious to know what happens if, if people do really follow also leadership of the communities at the forefront. 

Um, I'm, um, I'm curious as we're gonna move towards rounding up, um, that we haven't even talked.'cause I I'm also curious if there, if you have any thoughts on, the international side of this, the international side of solidarity, and to what extent [00:50:00] that's relevant at all. I would like to mind asking you two questions. One is something that you would hope to see moving forward, um, when it comes to solidarity and, and defending democracy and, and improving democracies. Um. And the other one is maybe if there's any call to action on, on listeners that may be all across the globe, um, if there, if you feel there's something they can do, either in their own context or in relation to what's happening in your country. Aksita, do you wanna go first? 

Akshita: Yeah, that's a great question. I think moving forward, I, I hope to see solidarity that's not just reactive, but something that is sustained and strategic and that's rooted in relationship.

As an organizer, I'm all about relational organizing and that can only happen at the speed of trust being built. And I think oftentimes we, uh, fall into this, um, you know, we fall into this hole of this idea of like, everything is urgent, right? And, and when we're only reacting in a sense of urgency because there's already a moment of crisis, we're not being very thoughtful and intentional and proactive, uh, about the, the work that needs to be happening year round all the time, even when the news isn't writing about us.

And I think the organizing requires deep relationship building and slow trust, and I would love to see people practicing solidarity, shifting from that sense of urgency to a sense of depth where we're really able to invest in, uh, that everyday solidarity infrastructure that we need.

Because that's the only way we're gonna get to some semblance of democracy, of practicing democracy in our own communities of community organizing, of the political education that we need, the mutual aid and the, the cross, um, movement building that we need. So I think if I had to have like a call to action, um, it's, it's nothing new.

I, it's the idea that we need to look around and ask ourselves. Who's missing? Uh, from our conversations from the table where we're making decisions, um, who is the most vulnerable, who's under attack right now, and what am I, you know, what can I risk to stand with them? Because democracy doesn't defend itself.

Um, and it it requires all of us to, to build something, um, and to risk something to get to a better future. I think every improvement we've had in society, all of the progress that we've made in humanity has been because people have dreamt bigger and asked for more. And, uh, it's up to us to keep doing that.

So I think that would be my call to action. It's what drives me. And so I'm hoping other people have the similar feel a similar call to this work. 

Barbara: Thank you. That sounds great. And I, and I like the idea of the solidarity infrastructure and thinking about what that that means. And it takes time, right? That's that always comes back. Yeah. That really resonates. But Rafa, how about you?

Rafa: At this moment I am not that, uh, hopeful. Uh, I think that, uh, yeah, storm is coming, uh, and we have to be prepared to that. Uh, and I think that we are beginning to, to see kind of the lagging effects of what is this, what is, uh, decided in this, in this, in this months and in these years.

And I think that this, this reactionary wave, uh, that is taking hold, uh, is, is going to have, uh, effects in kind of in, in, in, in the next decades now. So we are, we are going to have to live in a different world, of many, Kind of, uh, backlashes and, and the internalization of, of, of inequality regimes that we thought that were, that were disappearing.

I think that we have to, uh, keep, keep showing up, keep imagining, keep trying things. Uh, and I think that's an agenda That is still, and I am, maybe I am biased because I am talking from Peru and I think kind of disorientation is the word.

Um, because I think that we don't have a clear sight of how to rebuild our coalitions and the spaces of imagining and activating.

And that's work that we have to do. Uh, but yeah, just kind of holding around, uh, resisting and expanding new coalitions, new ways of being, of sharing and being with each other. And that, that in itself, uh, to wait out the storm that is coming is important. No, and from that, I think that we have to, we can, we can build again together and of course, uh, uh, out of urgency, for instance, what is happening in the US. That's something that is, is, is, is important to hold. And from there, I think that is going to be possibilities open for having a, yeah, a better horizon.

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you. Um, for those sobering words, but also, uh, reminding us to stay with the trouble, I guess is, um, is, is often said. Um, and I think the only way you're saying, you know, hold the ground, um, protect the space, expand the space, what I know from those countries, those, uh, places that have been able to resist, autocrats and move towards better grounds. It has always been by finding each other, um, and working together and showing real solidarity across groups. 

On that note, um, I really want to thank you for this conversation, um, and for sharing your, your valuable wisdoms experiences and feelings on solidarity in this times. Um, and for this honest conversation with, um, with light through the cracks, uh, as well as, concerns about what's to come, uh, and how we're gonna navigate that together. And I've been finding these conversations very meaningful at this time. And when we're talking about building relationships and creating kind of spaces of, of care and reflection, I, um, I recommend anyone to make sure you create those for yourselves as well.

So we can be together and, uh, weather the storm, um, whilst practicing solidarity. So again, thank you so much, Akshita, Rafa thank you.

Others: Thanks for this lovely conversation. So good to learn from both of you and to hear about the work that you're doing. Rafael. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Barbara, for, for yeah, just preparing, uh, this caring space for having this conversation.

And, and the same goes for you, Akshita. Yeah. It's, it'd be wonderful to know what, what you are doing in Baltimore up there. And yeah, looking forward to have, uh, this conversation again in the future. Thank you

Barbara: And thank you listeners for joining in today's episode. If you enjoyed the conversation, please subscribe. Leave a review and spread the word so more people can join. This really helps us also check out the show notes for resources and more information. And of course, watch this space for a new series coming up.