SPECIAL: Worldmaking (or how we get more feminist narratives for a caring economy)

Join us for a special episode in which we explore the role of arts and imagination in changing the script towards a more just and caring economy. It is increasingly recognized that narratives play a key role in how we understand and navigate the world, ánd in how decisions are taken that affect us all. As our economies favor the few and are increasingly unsustainable: How can we challenge the dominant narratives that hold us back (such as "economic growth is THE way")? How can we build and amplify alternatives that work for women and all living species? What are the conversations and approaches that could help us move towards a shared sense of what is also possible, based on diverse voices and knowledges?

Building on recent action research for Oxfam GB and decades of experience, Njoki Ngumi (artist, writer and feminist thinker), Rachel Walker (multimedia artist and campaigner), Elizabeth Maina (cultural practitioner and podcast producer) and Barbara van Paassen (strategic advisor and podcast host) dive into these questions. They make a case for more worldmaking and 'going deep, not wide', meeting every day people where they are at and localising the big shifts we would like to see. Why and how?

Please grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation!

Credits: The People vs Inequality Podcast is a co-production between Barbara van Paassen (host, creator) and Elizabeth Maina (producer). This episode was edited by Charles Righa and is the result of a project Barbara and Elizabeth did for Oxfam GB. In that project they explored how conversations can help us shift narratives on the economy and mapped inspiring practices and conversations from across the globe. 

Resources and bios:

Report "Mapping Feminist Economic Justice Narratives": https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VGzQrtEHNidjqagkY-9BpjqJrsB23BPG/view  

More about Rachel and her work: https://rachelwalkerkonno.com/

More about Njoki: Dr. Njoki Ngumi is a non-clinical general practitioner and African feminist artist, writer, filmmaker, thinker and researcher whose wider health knowledge and related expertise has been critical in the creative sector and connected arenas, core among these being sexual and reproductive health, to enhance socioeconomic equity, and advancement for all, especially youth, women, and marginalised people. 

Transcript

SPECIAL EPISODE: Worldmaking (or how we get more feminist narratives for a caring economy)

Barbara: Welcome to the People Versus Inequality podcast in a time of crisis and fast change. This podcast is a space to reflect and learn with change makers on how to tackle inequality. Today we have a special episode for you talking about the power of arts and conversation in shifting narratives on the economy.

Why? Because narratives - or the stories we tell ourselves, all the tweets, conversations, and other expressions we use - shape how we understand and navigate the world and the decision taken that affect us all. And because our economies and the economic decisions that governments make tend to favor the few and are increasingly unsustainable for many years, feminists and others have tried to challenge the dominant narratives that hold us back, such as the idea of economic growth is the way. And also they have tried to show the unpaid labor of women that actually keep the world going. Yet, whilst alternatives are taking hold in some spaces from donut economics to wellbeing, uh, to indigenous ways of living and working, we still see a hollowing out of public services in the name of austerity and growth with a few corporates growing ever more powerful, and women in communities, especially in the majority world, being sacrificed in the name of money.

So what can we do to build and amplify alternatives that work for all living species? And what role for conversations in getting new narratives, helping us move towards a shared sense of what's also possible, especially at this time of growing despair. These are some of the questions myself and my favorite co-conspirator and producer of this podcast, Elizabeth Maina, have explored in recent research for Oxfam GB.

Very soon we realized we need the artists in. Enter Njoki Ngumi and Rachel Walker Konno. Njoki is an artist, writer and feminist thinker from Nairobi and considered one of Kenya's most groundbreaking cultural figures. She's actually also a doctor by training, so I'm very curious what that brings to the conversation as well.

Rachel Walker is a multimedia artist and campaigner that never ceases to impress me. She's based in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, and leads campaigns for social justice at We Move Europe. Working with them has been an absolute pleasure, so I look forward to hearing what they learned and what we need to do to flip the script for a more just and caring economy and society.

My name is Barbara van Paassen. I'm the host of this podcast and I'm very excited for this special episode. So please grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation. So there we go. Welcome, welcome, jockey Elizabeth, Rachel. Thank you. Thank you, Barbara. Thank you, Barbara.

It's very good to have you with us today and, let me just check in because I mean, the world's not in an easy place. Um, Elizabeth and Njoki are based in Nairobi, um, where there's protests and police violence and the situation's not easy - and it's linked to the conversations of today.

So I'm just curious, how are you sitting here and, and what's, what's on your mind? 

Njoki: Um, maybe I can go first. Um, my, my heart's, my heart is with. Everybody who's in hospital, you know, or every family that's lost, um, somebody, um. In the course of the, not just yesterday's protest, because these protests have been building up for a really long time.

Um, they actually properly started last year. And even last year wasn't really the start. There's been a general kind of hunger for systemic change at the root of, um, the idea of livelihoods and economies, um, and human dignity and worth. Um. And the idea of, you know, the Kenya we have versus the Kenya we want, that's been a general theme, um, around the, the, the kind of push that we are seeing.

Um, the, the young people, um, especially those called Gen Z, um, were the ones who kind of were able to consolidate, um. These, these thoughts, um, in the tangible way that led people to do coordinated online and offline protests that started last year and have continued kind of, um, they went on a bit of a kind of more.

Quiet, um, expressions since June last year, and then they started again this year. Um, fueled by a lot of blood, a lot of rage, a lot of grief. Um, so that's kind of where my heart is, um, as we speak with just kind of in the knowledge of what is happening and in the knowledge that it's not quite done. Um, and just kind of, um, sitting with the uncertainty of what that means.

Barbara: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. 

Elizabeth: I think just to echo what Njoki is saying, I think it's also just, um, sitting with the undercurrent of the attention and the way also there are tips to also flatten the narratives. Around, around why we are protesting, um, around whether or not we should be in solidarity with the issues because, um.

The young people who are the catalyst for what we're experiencing now have been very articulate in clarifying what the issues are, like moving it beyond like just, you know, corruption to wellbeing, to the idea that we must all collectively reimagine a Kenya that works for all of us and not just the political class or people who work in service to neoliberalism.

Um, which is of course, since the nineties, this is actually no. Not since the 19th, since the idea of Kenya, as we know it right now, was constructed after colonialism. It's always been like a very pro capitalist society and we are taking it back and we are like, no, not anymore because it doesn't work for all of us.

Therefore, why? Why should we continue being serviced to a system that does not work for us?

Barbara: Thank you. Yeah. And then that work in the name of a, a better, more just country or world, um, being repressed. Um, so violently. Yeah. We'll, we'll come back, uh, to especially also the power of kind of imagining those new worlds. Um. Which sometimes seems strange amidst all that's happening, but maybe ever more relevant.

So Rachel, your, your campaigning, uh, in Europe. My sense is that some of these sentiments around. the economy not working for us, uh, for everyone, uh, especially for certain groups in society that have long been marginalized, um, but really for a majority of people in the end. Um, do you see that also in your work? 

Rachel: Um, yes, definitely. I mean, I think, um. Where I can see it most clearly is obviously political, um, representation we have right now. I guess people feeling so let down by. The neoliberal system in how hard it is for them to survive on a daily basis.

And I suppose, yeah, the like more mainstream political parties having not, um, uh, represented them and, and these concerns in a way that we're seeing increasingly, you know, whether it's on the actual EU level or whether it's in national contexts, these protest votes where people are voting increasingly extremist, populist, dangerous, um, characters who will definitely not, um, solve their, their issues for them, but also because I guess people don't really see another way, um, forwards.

Um, and so I think. Um, again, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's within this context it becomes even harder to fight for change for social justice because of course, uh, we're, we're kind of, uh, under attack in most spaces, uh, whether that's by our own representatives, um, corporates, um, et cetera. But, um, I think it is again, why it's so important for us to be talking about.

What are the alternatives? What are the new ideas? How do we make people believe in that again, rather than just, uh, yeah, these kind of cynical protest votes, um, is where I guess I can sort of see it most clearly, uh, right now. 

Barbara: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. from that different context that we're sitting in, I'm wondering if, uh, each of you could share a little bit more about who you are, and why you joined this project that Elizabeth and I, , did. And maybe I'll just say two more words on, on the project that we did.

Uh, so we were asked to by, Oxfam GB who's also, uh, concerned about the way the economy is working and the way certain voices, especially feminist voices, majority world thinkers that have long proposed alternatives, um, that have long, uh, studied what's not working, the fact that the narratives that we're trying to put forward are not gaining enough ground. Um, and the idea was can we find ways of having different conversations, more diverse conversations, um, that can really help us shift narratives around economy and towards a more just and, and caring economy.

So, um, curious, maybe Elizabeth, you wanna start with, with why you said yes when I asked you to, to join this project? 

Elizabeth: Um, I mean, I enjoy collaborating with you, so that's that. Uh, um, but also because at around that time in Jo and I also working on another project around narratives within sexual and reproductive health, um, uh, in the, in the African context, I thought that this was a very, this would, like, this would also be an interesting experiment to think about the same, the same ideas.

From like now, like a feminist economic justice, um, point of view, which would be broader and of course encompassing also SRHR, sorry, sexual and reproductive health. Um, so I just wanted to see like where are the alignments? Are there diversions? Are we grappling the same issues across, across different thematic sectors?

And the ecosystem as a whole. Um, so it was an opportunity for like broader, thinking and also of course to see like what the parallels are on a global level. Are there some opportunities for us to learn? Are there, like, are there some interesting things that are happening around the world that maybe we can use to experiment.

Barbara: Thank you. Yeah, and what I think what's also interesting is that you. Operate across different spaces and, and topics. Uh, as do I a little bit. So you, you're part of Nawi looking at kind of feminist economic justice, uh, work, um, and thinking, uh, your cultural practitioner, you have a legal background, um, you're working on this SRHR work. So yeah, I think that was also nice in, in this, in all our collaborations, but also in this one that you, you bring together those different experiences. 

 Elizabeth: Um, yes. Truly. I always forget that like Shaka Khan and Whitney Houston, I am every woman. That is true. Awesome. 

Barbara: So Njoki, Elizabeth then asked you to join in specifically on a workshop which we'll talk about a little bit more after. Um, yeah. What made you join and, and maybe first to start, yeah. Is there something else you wanna say about your background that maybe you haven't said yet? 

Njoki: Um, you know, I, I've, I've always been curious about, about power, um. How power flows, um, why it resides, why it resides, um, what makes it move, you know, um, what subverts it. Um, also because, um, one of the, because Liz and I have been friends for so long, um, like in, in our, in our other known work lives, we're always talking about different ways to see the same thing.

Um, and I learn, I learn, I learn a lot, a lot about that from her and. I, I find that, I find that teaching, um, or kind of sharing, um, from my own experiences, um, is an interesting way to kind of be find out if you are aligned with yourself. Um, find out what other people are thinking about a thing, um, be able to receive, also, push back on an idea, which I always think is super valuable.

Because I'm one of those believers that if everybody's always in agreement, then somebody's lying. You know? That's not how it works. So, so I really liked this idea of the workshop as a place to kind of unpack some of the thoughts we've been having around, um, narrative as an archetypal framework. Um, meaning how do you negotiate with the idea of story, um, in places where it doesn't seem story would be at home. Um, and so the, and, and so that's what the premise of the workshop was. Um. Just kind of thinking about what stories are we living in, um, what stories do we want to live in and how much power do we have, um, both as individuals and as and as community to change these stories.

Um, because narrative change is not just about things that happen outside of us, it's also the things that are happening around us. It's the things that we are part of. Um. When things kind of move off of, you know, off of the canvas, out of the song, you know, out of the movie. Um, when the credits roll, what are we left with, right?

Um, what are we carrying forward into the lives that we're living? The very real, very tangible lives that we're living. So that, for me, was, was, was kind of the place that I wanted to enter this conversation from and I was really honored that Liz, invited me to have that conversation.

Barbara: Wow. Thank you. So much of what you say is to me, like kind of encompasses what I love about feminist, uh, thinking and approaches, right? Um, this real deep understanding of power and also self-reflection and internal work. So thank you for that. Um, Rachel, I asked you to join in. Why did you say yes? 

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I. We kind of met each other at a similar moment when maybe roads that weren't logical for us to have taken initially kind of crossed. And I think for me, um, I guess the background for how I came to say yes to uh, working on this workshop is, um, in my late twenties when I'd been, um, campaigning for migration rights, um, L-G-B-T-Q-I, equality, women's rights, young people's involvement, decision making and, and against climate crisis, I kind of thought: I need something to sustain me. And, uh, it's when I, uh, signed up to art school, uh, in the evenings after, my day job of activism. And, also it was the time where I came into contact with feminist economic thinking and I think both of them, uh, this was now a couple of years ago, really, I guess revived my energy and my sense of purpose, um, because of having more tools and also I think especially with coming into contact with feminist economic thinking, being like, okay, this is how I can, before I could really see why, what we care about matters and why the changes will make a difference to people's lives. 

But I could now, because of the amazing work of feminist economic thinkers from around the world, see what the alternatives really could look like when we, replace Economic growth, and profit focus, really with care and wellbeing. And I think as at the same time I was kind of developing this artistic practice and saw how people, once they enter an arts space, are very willing to let go of the rules of life and society as they know it.

As that this is a wonderful space to be having these conversations because, you know, usually if you ask a, a group of people who aren't very confident, very intellectual already to talk about the economy. The, the first instinct is like, ugh, I dunno, don't ask me, I'm not trained, I'm not knowledgeable enough.

I don't have an opinion. Whereas, of course, it concerns every, every moment of our life. And I think that for me, yeah, so in the past I think seven years I've been really developing: what could art spaces and an art practice bring to also conversations around a feminist economic alternative, whether that's the big picture or just like your daily life. Um, and so, yeah, for me it was very exciting then to hear about the research that, um, you, Barbara and Elizabeth were working on. And supporting that in whatever way I could.

Barbara: Thank you so much. Yeah. That kind of brings me to, to, um, a question that might be good to answer before we move on to the kind of how of the conversations and the narratives, which is what would those alternatives look like, maybe what are some of those things that we've seen that either are already happening or people are dreaming about?

Um, who, whoever wants to go on this one. 

Njoki: I mean, I guess I can go first. I wanna push back on your question a little bit because as of now, I'm less interested in what the alternatives are because, whether they're kind of sighted or not, people are always living in alternatives. Right. Um, for instance, in Kenya, you know one of the - it's almost reached kind of feminist fairytale status because of the kind of conversations people have around it and the places in which it's raised as an example is this kind of village of women, right? Um, who all. Which was started by somebody who, um, was experiencing gender-based violence. Um, and then she went and kind of started this commune that has grown and grown and grown.

Um, and it's only women who live there and like, um, most of the coverage you'll see about it, um, online is kind of very romanticized. Um. Western focused, honestly, um, coverage that people drive for, you know, all these hours. And then they get there and then they talk to these women and they buy their beads and everybody's like, inspired and so beautiful and whatever, and then everybody goes home, back to their own lives.

So I'm not interested in, you know, the logistics of the alternative. We are all living the logistics of an alternative somewhere. Right. I'm more interested in what makes alternatives compelling, what tips an alternative over towards the place of having, um, reaching the place where a critical mass are debating whether or not they would append their lives to start living in an alternative.

Because the thing that alternatives are both blessed and cast with as we speak is that they're at the fringe. Right. They're not threatening enough to the status quo for the status quo to make any formal, you know, violent or nonviolent pushback for it to kind of interrupt, you know, and at the same time, um, it's enough that.

It's enough that people don't feel like I'm going to space to be able to live in this alternative. Like you can live part your quote unquote normal life, right? And then kind of be contributing to this, you know, alternative scenario, wherever it is. So for me, again, in the same way that the narrative is an archetype, the alternative scenario is an archetype.

Um, and that different people can live with varying amounts of alternative in their lives. Right? And the amount of. You know, alternative that people live with has always been a thing that general society kind of will push back on. Um, for decades, you know, people have called, um, those who seem overly enthused about being an environmentalist tree huggers.

You know, like there's always been all these kind of names and, um. I dunno though, like insults both, you know, violent and playful, um, of people who are like, like the cat lady for instance, which had a moment during the US um, electoral campaign where, you know, the Republican side really had a, had a time, you know, with the idea of the cat lady.

And like feminists can tell you where that. Kind of myth around and the mythology around, you know, the cat lady who is single, she doesn't have children. And as a political myth, it becomes very dangerous because what they're saying is that you have to be a certain kind of person to have, you know, a point of view that counts in the idea of building a future in this country.

Um, and when you think about, you know, the gender ramifications of a statement like that, it's actually a very big deal. But then, you know, cat Ladies this term that everybody just kind of throws out, right? So that again is why I am not interested in what alternatives are people living. We're all living these alternatives.

The people who you know for decades have never used a disposable straw. I. There are people who, you know, for decades have figured out different terms and of engagement and exchange within their own small communities. So I think what we need to be more honest about is, um, what prevents people from wanting to kind of commit to alternatives. What people are afraid about as regards the radicality of some of these alternatives. Um, that's interesting to me. Um, this idea that different people can live with different amounts of, you know, alternatives. And how then do you get somebody to commit to a little bit more and a little bit more as we go?

Um, having more of a long term view. And you know, the honest truth being that, you know, the mainstream now that we're talking about narratives, right? The mainstream and what constitutes the mainstream is a story we tell ourselves and that many more people believing what the mainstream is makes it that much more of a convincing story. It may not be a convenient story. Patriarchy for sure is not convenient. The amount of violence that goes into maintaining patriarchal, you know, value systems is not convenient at all. Right. But we are here, you know, in a patriarchal dispensation.

So we need to start asking ourselves which stories have had, you know, the benefit of time, which stories have had the benefit of violence as a kind of, um, maintenance framework. Which stories have had the benefit of, you know, blind dogma and belief systems? And I don't wanna use the word blind, maybe there's a better word for it, maybe. You know, the places where we are not willing to entertain an alternative, what are the threats? What are the, um, what's the word? What, what's the carrot and what's the stick? Right? Um, what carrots are people following? What sticks are people avoiding as regards what stories we choose to believe? So, you know, um, I think that's what I would say.

Maybe the too long don't read is that, um. It's costly to work or believe or leave alternatives. People have been paying these costs in very different ways for different periods of time, and rather than kind of discuss the logistics of these different alternatives and ask ourselves why they're not compelling, that's not the right question, in my opinion.

The right question in my opinion, is what stops people from entertaining alternatives. If we are honest, we need to start interrogating. What are the carrots, what are the sticks? What are the inconveniences that people have to live with in order to try even to consider from a brain place, right? What an alternative could be.

And then I think, um, the conversation could become a little bit more interesting. 

Elizabeth: Thank you and I think to follow up on Njoki's thoughts, but Barbara and I can both agree that one of the things that we found in the research that we conducted was exactly that. Like how do you build the critical mass? How do you get all these people with different ideas of, or you know, and also working on like different ideas within the feminist economic justice space to. 

To be, well, to connect if possible, but more importantly, to be able to build within their own communities so that it's more like to, to focus on growing deep instead of necessarily wide. Because sometimes we have the obsession, you know, um, being big and. And sometimes it, it doesn't work. Sometimes the action is like super hyper-local.

Therefore we should focus on exploring it within that context. Um, and building trust and community within that context as opposed to thinking that everyone who lives in the global majority world must all have the, the same ideas and same approaches. Um, because even with like the narrative of like the, the tree.

As it was like, especially like in the, in the nineties, early two thousands, we now have a word for it. It's now called eco feminism. It's now called like indigenous knowledge. Right? So eventually they'll catch up. So how do you like, so how, how, how do you make sure that. When, when they catch up, like, you're ready.

Like that's also like something that's interesting to me to explore when it comes to narrative work. 

Njoki: I wanna just kind of lift, um, travel with something that you've said, Liz, um, around the idea of impact being broad-based and impact being numbers being a very kind of particular, um, NGO hangup. You know, it's, it's, it's built into the DNA of programs.

It's built into, you know, the ways in which we measure, quote unquote, um, impact and what have you. Um, and then you start kind of seeing, you know, NGO takeover of community building and the ways in which people want to do community work, um, and your timelines. Um, and, and your. Kind of priorities and focus points where like a group will come and say, okay, now we are interested in feminist this and that.

And then in two years time they'll come and say they're interested in something else. Um, you know, it's very, you know, it's very messy and you start seeing right, that institutions who claim to be friends are not always friends. They're not always allies. They're not always like, you can give. All sorts of money to a thing and not be in support of it.

You see? Um, it can be, it can get messy when we get honest about some of these things. So I just wanted to kind of, um, say that what you've said around the idea of, um, going deeper instead of going wider becomes really important, um, as regards. What we imagine impact to be, and especially as regards a more kind of local organizing platform.

Um, and then also a, aside from the. Romantic idea of a globalized fight against X, Y, Z. We are all coming from such different places. There's definitely ways that we can learn from each other, but doesn't necessarily, like, we don't have to be fighting the same fight because we are all dealing with such different things.

Um, we can support one another, but it doesn't, you know, we don't all have to be wearing, you know, evening gowns at the same time. Right. That's, yeah. 

Barbara: It's really interesting you're both saying this because I think, uh, Elizabeth can confirm that when we started out this project, there was, there was a real interesting kind of, how can we shift this global conversation, amplify certain voices, enhance the impacts, all these kind of things. Um, and when we started digging, and of course we have our own biases in that as well, but. Um, it did come out for us very clearly that what we felt was needed was not just kind of bigger conversations, but getting different people in the conversations, having the conversations differently, having it, having this more local approach.

Um, so yeah, so I guess that's also what we did in the, in the, in the workshops right. And in very different ways. So. You in Nairobi had had a workshop with young feminists and Rachel and I had a workshop with, with women, with a migration background here in a, in a not so rich part of Amsterdam. Um, and I think there were very different, um, but very, very powerful spaces that we, um, that we managed to help. Um, so yeah. I'm curious, maybe building on, on what you've been saying, if there is something, um. You wanna share from the, from the workshops that you had and, and kind of what, what stood out or what surprised, um, once you started having that conversation? 

Elizabeth: Um, um, I think, I think I. For, for, for me specifically, when, when, when we had, uh, I had initially framed the idea of, of the workshop, it was to explore what a feminist utopia would look, would look like. Right. And the idea of utopia always sounds like it's very far out there. It's very much like the Jetsons, imagining that we would have fly cars by the year 2022.

Right. Yet no one, no one is asking for flying cars. All we are asking, in fact, in Nairobi or in Kenya, what we are asking for are walkable cities. We're like, no more cars. We want, you know, more room for non-motorized transport. We want to be able to live like breathing fresh air, drink clean water, you know, harmful full lives.

And this is what came out in the, in the workshop that it's not about like. You know, some far out idea, but in the now, uh, your material needs met. And I think that these are some of the similarities also that might have come up or even in, in conversation, whether it was muted or loud. Um, in, in your conversation, Rachel, was this the case?

Rachel: Yeah, I can, um, very much relate to how, uh, to this, to this point around we need to have deep conversations rather than wide conversations. I think we saw it with our workshop, both in the methodologies that we had to use as well as what came out the conversation. So methodologies, because this was a group of women with very different backgrounds who all lived in the same like square k ilometer. Um, so very, and you know, it's very similar context. Already knew each other. 'cause they have a women's sort of like sewing and art group. So, um, um, but like different languages, different, um, um, like abilities to also speak Dutch, which is, uh, our main language or even English. So it was a, a workshop talking about feminist economic alternatives where we had to not use words really.

Um, and of course, you know, if you're trying to like. Have this be a mass conversation, you couldn't include this group. So we found then that having more of the, like the art methodologies, that it was much more about visualizing, um, the principles that you find important for a feminist economy specifically as a wish for your neighborhood.

So also very specific to the neighborhood and their lives, but them as sort of like the, their lives as like a, a, a plural, we, um, was super important to making sure that it could be an inclusive and and productive conversation. Um, because of course, uh, um, we weren't losing anyone in, in, in, in, in complicated, uh, discussions.

Um, and I think what was incredible to me is also that the, um, what came out of that discussion, we really could have only had. By including this group. So, you know, we presented some of the main principles that I see quite often in, um, joint femini, feminist economic thinking, you know, like, uh, centering care and wellbeing, uh, uh, productivity replaced with nurturing.

Um, yeah, I, that, that, that we, I think we presented like five of these kinds of principles. And we asked this group, you know, um, 'cause we were doing this via drawings as well as like, what else would we draw? Um, what is missing? And they put, um, like the ability to sleep peacefully at night. And of course, you know, I think, um, afterwards I was like, of course, you know, like a big focus of, of feminist thinking is, is ending the military industrial complex, but somehow this isn't always centered in feminist economic thinking that.

There needs to be an alternative to this as well. And so when we were asking, you know, what do you need to sleep well at night, they were talking about, you know, security, safety, but not security and safety in terms of like taller walls, more weapons. But in terms of, you know, inclusivity, making sure everyone feels welcome, everyone plays their part, everyone has a role.

And I was like, this is, you know. An incredible addition to this conversation and something that Barbara and I with our backgrounds of, you know, having never had to flee war or persecution, would not have contributed to the discussion. Um, and could really only have happened by having that deep conversation, um, with these kind of, um, creative tools with this group of women.

I think so for me that was really a moment of really being well in awe of the collective wisdom of this group, but also seeing that, you know, going deep is definitely, what we need also to have, um, to be able to have these conversations.

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that, Rachel. And I mean, something that I. Because we've had conversations also, and now it was mentioned, you know, do we need to see impact? And what happens then? And I, I've also had those thoughts, you know, in this process. Like, then what's next? I mean, can we actually do something?

But I think what was also powerful to me in that conversation, and, and I keep being reminded of that, is that people already value that space so much that. They were all really warmed, uh, I think by the space. They felt appreciated. Their knowledge was being considered. Sso that in itself was already important, besides the fact that we are learning from that and taking that learning somewhere else. And I mean, all that can happen from that. It's actually also being exhibited now at a, at a local library. So, I mean, it's, it's being shared, but the space in itself was already really powerful. Elizabeth, I'm sure you have thoughts on this too, um, and maybe some of the, what happened in the workshop or the responses that you got.

Elizabeth: Um, I think we also had like very similar responses to the women that you hosted in that, we really focused on like exploring like imagination and creativity and what that means, right. Similarly, we had a lot of responses, um, from this group of feminists about like, what does contribution look like when not everyone is working?

Are people still valuable? Are they still worthy? Um, what can they, what can they bring to the proverbial table? How can we make things like, um. Transport more inclusive. How can we make space for queer people so that they don't have to feel unsafe in the ways that they show up so that they're able to show up fully in societies like us that tend to be very, um, violent and the violence towards women.

If you are queer woman, you experience even more violence. So. What does that mean? Also, what does it mean to keep the children safe? Was a very big part, part of that conversation because, um, jockey led us through like a world making re-imagining exercise where she painted the picture of like the most bleak nursery school you could ever be in and people like reacted vis.

To that, to, to like the idea of like, no play, no creativity, strict, because it's not just limited to the children, it's how like some of the people are experiencing like their adult lives right now. Um, so how do you, how do you push back against that? How, how do you find like pockets of care and wellbeing?

Um, even in the midst of a violent world. Those are some of the things that we're grappling with, um, in our workshop. And I'm glad that even in terms of like this question of what next for the people in that room, it was enough that we, we managed to explore that to together. 'cause it's not always available to like the opportunity to think collectively with a different group of people outside, you know, your friend group or like your regular community.

So this was very welcome in terms of that. 

Njoki: Mm. Maybe I can add that. Yeah. One of the benefits of. You know, from like the villain perspective, um, one of the benefits of our mainstream is that we're sold the idea that the mainstream is the most convenient, the most normal, the most default. Um. Possibility. Um, and that we are lucky to be living in it as it is.

Right. Um, and that, you know, kind of the meet it meeting the lowest bars, um, possible of anything, whether it's like decency or, you know, dignity or whatever, um, is a gift, right? Um, and so like then, especially in contexts like, like, like, like mine and Liz's, which are, you know, majority world contexts, um, which have born the brunt of significant kind of both colonial and post-colonial traumas and entered into those colonial, post-colonial traumas with their own kind of societal, you know, traumatics, um, when you.

When you question anything, right? Because a huge part of, a huge part of, a huge part of, um, dissent begins with a question, right? So it's like, um, you're told, um, A plus B, C, and somebody puts up their hand to ask whether. You know, the only possibility for the SAM includes both A, B, and C. And you know, there has to be real violence so that everybody else who's in the classroom can see that.

Like, this is not the nonsense that the teacher is going to be tolerating today or any other day. Right. Um, and so like in our context, whenever anybody puts up their hand too. Ask a question. Um, it is framed as descent from childhood, from very, very early childhood. Um, and that has translated all the way to the most micro of communities, which is, you know, the home and the family, right?

Or whatever context it is that somebody is living in, um, that they choose to define that way. Right. Um, and then it's kind of, um, expanded, um, in spiritual context. It's expanded in educational context. It [00:42:00] goes ahead into, you know, um, the workspace. Um, and then you just kind of are followed nonstop by the idea that the person with power is the one who makes the decision about what's going to happen.

Um, and the person will power with power will always get away with whatever it is they want to do, whether or not that thing is wrong. So we are even. Very post moral in that sense. Um, because the morals are decided by, you know, whoever holds the biggest stick. So when you look at, when you look at these things that way, you, you, you really begin to see that even a space where people can say, what if things didn't have to be this way?

It is kind of like the whispers of the beginning of why must A plus B, B, C, um, and that if. So much work has been put to socialize us against the ability to ask a question or the ability to push back and say, could we try an alternative? Right. Um, you know, it begs, it begs the question where, why this work has to be done and who is doing this work.

So, um, I think part of the honesty around the genuine exploration of alternatives is to ask ourselves and really, you know, kind of sit with the bleak realities. And I love the word bleak. I've been using it very often because it's really. Communicates strongly. Um, it's a very wintry word, you know, um, but it's, you know, it communicates strongly, um, the realities of what we are sitting with, and especially when it comes to, um, the idea of exploring an alternative that includes more people, for sure.

You are always going to face pushback. So who is pushing back against the idea of an alternative? What are the ideas that. Put themselves actively as obstacles to the idea of an alternative, not just in our own minds, right? Because there are those, sometimes we are the obstacles to the ideas of an alternative because we've swallowed the idea that what we have currently is the only thing we'll ever have, and there's reasons for that, including, you know.

Posttraumatic being post-traumatic and what have you, right? And like depression, burnout, deep anxiety, mental health challenges, everything that you can kind of sit and think with both valid and not so valid reasoning, right? Um, but like also what are the real outside forces that are pushing against these things?

And they're there and there are many, and we need to be more open and honest about it. It's not that, you know, the, and that, that's, that's one of, that's our story also, that we are fed that the, the, the. The, the alternative needs better advertising. And not all the time. That's not the only thing that's happening, right?

It's that the alternative has active opposition, it has active ops who are the ops to the alternatives. It's really good for us to be able to just kind of name them and think about them, and. Consider them when we are thinking about how to expand the possibilities or deepen, you know, the roots of some of the things that we want to be flowering in the next few years, in the next couple of decades.

Barbara: Mm. Wow. Thank you. Njoki. I know it's also a real reminder, at least to me, that's. This work around alternatives and re-imagining it's, it's liberatory practice or it can be, um, and, and it reveals so much. It's again, also it's like an entry point to revealing all kinds of power structures. Uh, and that's really interesting because Elizabeth and I also in this process, and that's also why it's always interesting to work together, we noticed that narratives is kind of hot now. Um, and so there's a lot of being, a lot of work being done on narratives and what can we do to shift narratives, et cetera. But again, there's the risk that it's a real kind of global north, uh, dominant, dominant led conversation. Um, so yeah, that was [00:46:00] something that we were very mindful of.

Um, and, um, I'm, I'm curious, um, I. I'm curious to, as we're gonna already move towards rounding up, it feels way too soon. Um, but I'm wondering if there is like a particular insight from the work, that you still feel would be important to share. 

Elizabeth: I think for me, the, the, the one thing that stands out even in this conversation is the importance of not trying to also flatten ideas. We should not attempt to flatten everything into something that is, you know, bite-sized, accessible. It's okay for things to be complex. It's okay for them to have like to, to express themselves in different ways, different channels, um, different ideas. Um, the, it, it only needs to make sense for the people, for the people who will interact deeply with the work. Um, for, for, for me, that's a, that, that's a thing that's always been very clear.

And even now as we were, as we were having this conversation, like, that's the other thing that's apparent to me. Um.

Yeah. The, the, the work needs to be, the work needs to be hyperlocal and focused. I know Barbara don't necessarily, and this is something that went back and forth with as we were doing the research, but I think it's even more clear to me that for narratives to work, they, they have to be tailored to the people who are experiencing whatever shift needs to happen.

Rachel: I guess to, to build on that. I think just what I found with this workshop, but also with other workshops that I've done around, um, yeah, kind of, I guess art performances. Um, where we, we dive into feminist economic alternatives is, um, uh, people are very excited to, to get into this topic. Uh, it really, I think once people, um, get familiar with the, with, with alternative thinking or just get invited to reimagine the world, um. It's, uh, it's, it's an invitation you'll very happily take. And I dunno, it's, it can be a joyful process as well. 

I think that that's also, um, you know, like I've done, um, cooking workshops where we did like, uh, a 10 step, uh, pasta pesto from scratch. Wrote a manifesto at the end of it. And each step of the way, there was a different principle for us, feminist like alternative principle for us to, um, dive into related to the cooking that we were doing. And yeah, then this other workshop we were creating talismans, which are wishes for the neighborhood. Um, and specifically people could think about an individual. Um, and so I think like quite often I have found that like also relating these really big conversations back to like. Everyday actions, uh, places people, um, really help people to also, uh, I guess get creative rather than overwhelmed. And, um, and for it to be quite a joyful yeah, uh, shared experience as well. I.

Barbara: Thank you. Yeah. Something that also it, the process also reminded me of is it's just the power of experimentation. Like just trying out different things, uh, and doing things differently from the way maybe we're used to. And that especially in some spaces people are not used to, was already really powerful. Um, and it also draws in, uh, different people. So that was something that, uh, that was very clear to me. Um. 

Yeah, it's, I'm curious as we move forward, we talked a little bit at the beginning about kind of the state of the world and, and our, our different contexts. Um, and, and yeah. The challenges we're seeing today. I'm wondering what would be a hope you have in trying to move this type of work forward in trying to have more of these collective spaces? Um, imagining, um. The challenging of power, understanding of power. Um, what, what can we do? What can others do? 

Elizabeth: I think because mine is very simple when I think about this, it's just the, the space and resources to be able to do this more often, um, to gather different people, um, to be able to share these ideas. Um, to, or, and even just to be able to, to, to create, like if it's a physical space. 'cause I think that's very important for people to be able to come together and, you know, dream freely and think freely without necessarily having to think that, um, the, the, the action that they take must be the immediate one. That even that, uh, space to, to, to imagine and rest and, and create together is enough. Yeah. 

Rachel: Plus one to the creating spaces I think as well, like looking at how we really create inclusive cultural and activist spaces. Like I think our workshop worked so well because it was in, um, there's this cultural institution in a amp, Sam called Framer Framed, and they have put in the work to create, they call it a, uh, a neighborhood room in, in this neighborhood, a poorer neighborhood of Amsterdam where there is a lot of.

People with diverse backgrounds. Um, and they've really nurtured this group by having activities for the neighborhood each week and, and the specific women's group. And this is also something that they then share, um, with artists as a group, you know, to like, collaborate with. And I think, um, yeah, quite often, you know, it is great to be able to do these kind of.

Artistic practices, but if you're always working with like an art crowd, again, it's, it's kind of a self-selecting group of people who probably get a lot of chance to think about alternatives for the world and enact on them. And I think, yeah, more work needs to be put in. Um, well, I mean, I think definitely by the NGO sector, but also by the cultural sector to nurture these kinds of spaces where the rules can be let go of and we can come together to dream a bit.

Njoki: Um, I think, I think just kind of listening to you both, um, um, I'll share thought that, um, uh, Liz and I had been talking about, um, maybe about a week ago, um, that we should celebrate more, um, and that we should, um, enjoy and kind of steep. Good news in the same way that we just kind of, um, do deep dives into horribleness.

And like, you know, the, the, the, the challenge with doing feminist work is that there's so much horribleness it, it, it's like unceasing. Um, but then there's also a really good thing. Um, there's celebrations, there's like, um, good moments. There's wonderful stories. And I think, um, the effort of doing that, not just as individuals but in community and kind of, um, sitting with this is what a success looks like, um, and kind of tied to the idea that.

We'd had before about what alternatives are working. There's so many kind of working alternatives. If they, it's the thing that stops us from calling them successful big alternatives is that they don't meet, you know, mainstream, um, criteria, which, you know, in and of itself is, is a, is a self-critique, right?

Um, so like there's all these al alternative things that we, we manage to do that work for the person who, you know, has decided that. S just, just getting the people of their neighborhood from using one dust bin to being able to sort their garbage. That is huge. Changing the way people throw away things is like massive.

Do you know what I mean? Um, so just things like that. I think we should kind of celebrate more and like steep in what a good thing looks like a little bit more. That'll be more encouraging.

Barbara: Thank you. And I think so many people need more of that, um, in these days. Yeah, that's also something we really hope for, um, as Elizabeth and I kind of embarked on this journey and did a report, uh, that people can also see in the show notes, um, and spoke to people and kept being reminded of, of questions that we hope people will be asking.

NGOs, artists, others, funders maybe who are listening, uh, keep asking themselves like. Um, what conversations are we having? Who are we speaking to? What are the perspectives we're acknowledging and hearing and, uh, honoring? Um, what questions are we asking? Um, what is holding it back? I mean, these are the kind of questions that we really hope to.

Um, and courage, um, uh, and the creation of the spaces to, to be able to dive into that. Um, and I think that sometimes also requires a bit of courage. Um, letting go of the sense of urgency that everyone is feeling, um, and believing that we're, yeah, by being in this together, we can kind of. Get to better places.

I guess that's, that's what I remain with also after this conversation. So thank you. Thank you so much, Rachel, Njoki Elizabeth, uh, for joining me in on this conversation. 

Elizabeth: Just thank you for, for making space. It was good to be on the other side of the episode for once. Yeah. And I'm so glad that Rachel and Joki were able to share their time and their expertise with us in, in this different context. And also today just to see all the points that, um, the work is, is, is different and similar at the same time. 

Njoki: Um, it was super lovely to hear, um, about the work that you're doing, Rachel, it sounds incredible.

Rachel: Same. Really enjoyed being, uh, in this conversation, real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. 

Barbara: Thank you again, Joki, Rachel, and of course, you too, Elizabeth. Usually behind the scenes, but luckily not today. and thank you listeners for listening today to today's episode. If you enjoyed the conversation, please subscribe. Leave a review and spread the word so more people can join. This really helps us. As said, check out the resources in the show notes, and of course, watch this space for more inspiring episodes coming up.

Ciao!