S6 Ep3 Bridging research and practice to save democracy: Solidarity networks for the future

In this season, we dive into the question of how academics and practitioners can come together at a time in which democracy and rights are under attack in many places. What can we learn from those working across these spaces on doing this well? 

In this third episode we have a very inspiring guest that brings a unique perspective on these issues and "refuses to box herself in". Marina Slhessarenko Barreto is a political scientist and writer affiliated with the Law and Democracy cluster at CEBRAP, one of Brazil's largest research centers and a PhD student funded by the Rosa Luxemburg Stiftung. Born into a Ukrainian family with a legacy of pro-democracy activism, it may not be a surprise that she ended up writing a book called The Path of Autocracy, which dives into the challenges that Brazilian democracy faces, ánd proposes ways out of the ongoing autocratic cycle across the globe. Marina is a regular contributor to media, including on geopolitical matters that are so high on the agenda today.  We talk about the lessons from Brazil but also: Why is she so keen on bridging these different worlds and build networks of solidarity - especially as women in academia? What is borogodó and why is it relevant to 'speak to society' and collaborate well? And what gives her hope today?

This and more in today's episode. So please grab a coffee, your tea, and listen in on the conversation!

REQUEST: you are very welcome to share your reflections on this conversation with us via peoplevsinequality@gmail.com, as we are capturing this in a blog!

For more about Marina's work:
-The path of Autocracy EN summary https://laut.org.br/en/book-the-path-of-autocracy/
-Bloomsbury Handbook of Brazilian Democracy (feat 50 women scholars, forthcoming) https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/bloomsbury-handbook-of-brazilian-democracy-9798216392422/
-CCI-Cebrap https://cci-cebrap.org.br/en/about/
-Mapping autocratic actions https://agendadeemergencia.laut.org.br/en/ 
-Article on Ukraine https://ojs.uel.br/revistas/uel/index.php/seminasoc/article/view/51672/51585

About this podcast: In a time of crisis and fast change, the People vs Inequality podcast is a space to reflect and learn with changemakers on how to tackle inequality. The show is a co-production between Barbara van Paassen (host, creator) and Elizabeth Maina (producer), and edited by Charles Rigga. 

This series was funded by the Atlantic Fellowship for Social and Economic Equity Programme at the London School of Economics as part of an academic-practitioner collaboration project. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the position of the Atlantic Fellows for Social and Economic Equity programme, the International Inequalities Institute, or the London School of Economics and Political Science. 

More about the podcast: https://peoplevsinequality.blogspot.com/

More about the AcPrac project: https://afsee.atlanticfellows.org/academic-practitioner-collaborations

Transcript

People vs Inequality Podcast Ep6.3

Barbara: Welcome to People Versus Inequality podcast. In a time of crisis and fast change, this podcast is a space to reflect and learn with change makers on how to tackle inequality. In this season, we dive into the question of how academics and practitioners can better collaborate at this time of great need.

More and more countries are facing democratic backlash, and both civil society and academia are under attack. Can they come together to defend civic space and human rights? And if so, how? What can we learn from those working across these spaces on doing this well, this is already our third episode, and I'm very excited for today's guest who came highly recommended, brings a unique perspective, and I love this, refuses to box herself in, especially at this time of great need and complexity.

Marina Slhessarenko Barreto is a political scientist and writer affiliated with the Law and Democracy cluster at CEBRAP, one of Brazil's largest research centers and a PhD student funded by the Rosa Luxemburg Stiftung. Born into a Ukrainian family with a legacy of pro-democracy activism, it may not be a surprise that she ended up writing a book called The Path of Autocracy, which dives into the challenges that Brazilian democracy faces, ánd proposes ways out of the ongoing autocratic cycle across the globe. It may also not be a surprise that she's a regular contributor to media, including on Ukraine and geopolitical matters that are so high on the agenda today. Why is she so keen on bridging these different worlds and what inspiring examples does she find along the way? 

This and more in today's episode. So please grab a coffee, your tea, and listen in on the conversation! So welcome Marina. 

Marina: Hi Barbara. It's my pleasure to be here. 

Barbara: It's really great to have you here and also quite the honor because you were up just last night writing an article, so I'm wondering how you're doing, did you manage to get any sleep? It's a mess in the world. It keeps being a mess and it's keeping people up like so. Yeah. How are you? 

Marina: Yeah. Well, um, I'm doing okay. I think that the world is not allowing us to get a lot of sleep these days, and so I'm just trying to, to get as much information and try to stay a little sane as well, because times are quite harsh right now. Um, and yeah, writing is my passion. So whenever I can write and, and, and criticize and, and, and point ways out and collaborate, I'm happy to do it. But yeah, to be honest, I'm kind of under a sleep deprivation at the moment. 

Barbara: Yeah, I do hope you get some sleep because we also do need that to keep, to keep defending democracy. But I also really appreciate all the work that you're doing. So at the moment, uh, this episode will be broadcast, it's a little later, but it's, it's another mess, uh, with Trump going into Venezuela and the region that you're in is under a lot of pressure. And we were just talking also earlier about how what may is very top of mind for large part of the world, sometimes in other places seem to be a little, little bit underestimated or people I, I think we share a concern about the fact that people still seem to downplay some of what's happening today. Right? 

Marina: Yeah, totally. And, uh, I mean, a part of me cannot blame them. There's a lot of things going on. Economic crisis, climate crisis, uh, wars already popping out, um, in Ukraine, in Gaza, in Sudan, in Congo. Um, there's a lot of of problems happening. And I mean, on the 3rd of January we already had a, a big, uh, catastrophical surprise. So it's very bad news and people were not expecting this. And, um, even if the tensions were already growing and mounting for quite a period of time, we were not expecting this to come so soon and in such a undisguised manner. So, yeah, I mean, I like to say I am disappointed, but not surprised. Yeah. Like the meme, because unfortunately this is quite the sign of the times I guess in last years. 

Barbara: Yeah. And now you're saying already a few of the keywords that keep coming back in conversations I have around, uh, authoritarianism and also the playbooks, which is the speed with which things can happen. Uh, whatever you don't expect is really going to happen it. Or like, even if you have the slightest suspicion, it might, um, and also the undisguised nature with which things are happening. And that's something that I've also been talking to people about. It's, there's really a shift there, I think, in terms of, the openness, the masks falling off, but also the frankness with which it's happening. 

I wonder, um, before we dive into all that, uh, because you've done a lot of work on autocratization, we'll talk a bit about more what drives you, but coming from this belief in democracy and, and a different way of, of being together or living together, I wonder if you want to say something about like what you're up to these days, um, and what is it that drives you, what, what made you enter into this space of both research and writing on these topics? 

Marina: Um, that's a, a very nice and kind question, Barbara. Thanks. Um, I think politics, uh, runs my life, my life since my birth. Uh, my grandfather, he is now declared, uh, officially, um, political amnesty. Uh, but he was in jailed in the military dictatorship that happened in Brazil. Um, his house was, totally, uh, messed up at least three times. Uh, he was, said to be a communist. I mean, it's a story that runs my family since my birth and is one of the first things you know, uh, about him when you talk to him? Uh, my grandmother, she is a, also a great inspiration for me. She is the first woman to be elected a senator in the state, uh, of Matoso in Brazil from the workers' party. And, uh, both of my grandmother and my grandfather, they were professors in the federal university. My grandfather also helped found the university back then, uh, in a state where it was said to be there, there was nothing. It was a state that were, that was still underdeveloped during the dictatorship. My grandfather was sent there in prison because it was kind of a natural punishment. So I think they, it was also very important for them to, um, engage in this project of education and political struggles for democracy.

Barbara: Wow. Yeah. What a legacy. That's, I mean, also probably came with a lot of pain and, um, difficult parts, but it's also impressive in what they have been able to contribute to. And I can, I can only imagine that you've been inspired by them and that this has been, um, yeah part of your drive. And it's interesting that both, so both the, the political side and the academia or the research was there. You wrote a book on what was happening in Brazil. Can you say a little bit about that and, and also some, maybe some of the key insights that, that you took away from it that maybe are still influencing your work today? 

Marina: Yes, of course. So, uh, The Path of Autocracy is the book written by five different researchers, um, uh, me included also Mariana Amaral, Adriane Sanctis, Conrado Mendes, Fernando Romani Sales. And it's a book that, uh, was published two years ago and unfortunately it's still, it, maybe it's more relevant than by the time we published it. It compared the, autocratization experience, uh, in Brazil and other eastern European countries that were facing backsliding processes. So Hungary, Poland, Turkey and India as well. So, um, what we saw is that Bolsonaro in the, his first term of office between 2019 and 2022 was, uh, very innovative in the worst possible sense. So some, some of the invectives that Orban in Hungary or Modi in India did only in their second, or other terms of office Bolsonaro managed to do in his first term.

So we faced a lot of danger. And after writing the book, after publishing the book, we, uh, also at Brazilians, we discovered that not only Bolsonaro was very disrespectful to democracy while he was in power, but he also literally, I, I, I mean. This is absolutely outrageous, obnoxious, but that he and his entourage had a plan to literally kill Lula, uh, and, other authorities in Brazil. So that Lula, that was the president that got elected, so that bona was not re-elected, uh, would not take office. Sofor us, Brazil, it sparks a lot of, um. Um, caution also because we had a military dictatorship and Bolsonaro government, um, as outrageous that this also may seem, uh, had more military officers in, um, in the ministries than the military dictatorship period itself.

In this centre of research where I published a book, uh, that I worked where I published this book, the Path of Autocracy, we did a mapping of authoritarian actions that Bolsonaro perpetrated in Brazil in his four years in office. That's also why in the book we finished saying that it's not only important to map the what happened and how it's being done, because there are common strategies also some differences between how in the global North and the global South authoritarian practice practices are carried out. 

But also it's very important to hold these autocrats accountable for what they did. I mean, that's the, the main lesson that we see now. The, the relevance. Um, Trump was not held accountable. Now he's in his second term of office waging wars against every single country in the world. I mean, okay. Um, I'm, um, um, over, over, uh, [too many, let's say too many.] But yeah, I mean, Venezuela was the first. Now he's talking about Columbia and Greenland. Um, and the 10 zones are also very high in the Middle East. Uh, so anyway, we, we are talking about a president that is not only corrosive to the democracy in the United States itself, but to the whole world.

And in Brazil what we managed to, and this is very important for us. Is that we held Bolsonaro accountable. And in the end of last year, he was convicted for more than 27 years in prison. And the year before that, he was also held ineligible. So he cannot run for, uh, president for eight years. And that's a, that's a, a very, I'd say, um. I don't know, like a recipe for how to deal with these situations because as you already said in the beginning of this conversation, things are not necessarily so open at the start. And then when they're open, we are like paralyzed because we don't know how to handle this and we have to face this ambiguity of authoritarian practices and also understand that the fact that they are ambiguous doesn't mean that they are not as, um, inside or as dangerous as if they were blatantly open. Both of them are so dangerous for our democracy and for the peace in the world, and we are facing the consequences of not recognizing the importance of this fact now. 

Barbara: Yeah. Thank you for that. That really resonates. I mean, I, I did some work on the Netherlands also looking at experiences in other places. And, uh, we're not in that same situation yet, but there is, there is a lot of parallels. I'm also curious to hear about some of the differences you find. Uh, but this accountability, I think is something that's, that we can all learn from and that's also part why I was so keen to speak to you and, and to like have a focus on Brazil in this series. Both because I think there is, I mean, there is a, a great example of, of getting rid of an autocrat. Um, and we'll talk a bit about this more later, but also rebuilding some of the things you can do then moving forward, holding 'em accountable, but also really working on your democracy. And also the, the kind of academic, uh, tradition or the research tradition that's there is, I think there is a lot to learn.

The ambiguity that you talk about. I think it's often what I found is it's often a reason why people are a bit reluctant, you know, at the beginning. Uh, and, and why it's so important to show what's going on, um, and not hold back. Um, so thank you for raising that. Um, I'm wondering if you can say a little bit more about, because maybe now that we're like looking at Brazil, um, what do you think made it possible or happen that there was this change of regime, and there is this accountability process going on. 

Marina: I think there are some very important factors that helped Brazil, um, not just get lost in the way of, in the path of autocratisation. So, we had institutions, some other institutions that were counter majoritarian that helped in the effort of pushing against Bolsonaro. So the Federal Supreme Court here, uh, is of a very big role. This justice Alexandre de Moraes who was the one to take a very clear stance on against the authoritarian and investigations, regarding Bolsonaro. 

All of us were really frightened. And after, I mean, the election happened, Lula won with less than 2 million, uh, more votes than Bolsonaro. It was, uh, the most, um, the closest, um, percentage of votes, uh, between the two candidates. Uh, so it was very short advantage between both of them, uh, after Lula won. Uh, we had this, uh, doc, I, I think it's, it was a report anyway, a document was made to, to clear all the, the facts on these inspections by the highway federal police that were totally illegal, and, uh, allegedly more than thousands of voters were. Um, in any way, uh, hindered to, to vote or, um, exercise their political rights. So a lot of things were really at stake there. The, the stakes were very high. I think the Federal Supreme Court had a very big role on this. Also, the Civil society in Brazil. So we've got a universe of think tanks, also research centers, uh NGOs, uh, that are more and more vigilant. 

Um, and I think we, there's also the, the fact of, uh, foreign policy and, uh, COVID, the, the fact that COVID struck so hard in Brazil was also, uh, a big, um. I'd say a big setback for Bolsonaro. I mean, he was also the denialist president to say that it was not something to be worried about, but also helped him not get elected. So there's a lot of other factors, but I think I, I put some in the highlight in the spotlight here. 

Barbara: Yeah. And I've often heard that the coalitions that were built between both people within the political arena, but also outside researchers, journalists, civil society of all kinds were very impressive.

Marina: Um, yeah, thank you for telling this. What happened with Bolsonaro is that, uh, we could manage to do a very big coalition uniting these two polls of the spectrum.

So Lula from the Workers' Party and Alchemy from the Social Democratic Party, they came together to say, we are the coalition pro-democracy. We are the ones against the far right. So we are, even if we have very big differences on how we think social policy and society transformation and law and innovation and economy. We think that there are some unnegotiables and democracy is unnegotiable. So we are standing against Bolsonaro and that that was a very, important and big political move. 

Coalition crafting. It is not something, uh, self-evident and easy at all. I mean, we've been seeing this in Turkey, in Hungary, in India as well. Other, uh, countries that are being autocratic, autocratised. And it's very hard to build coalitions. It's very hard to build coalitions with people that you don't like. I mean, but it only makes sense to build coalitions in such, uh, a way. There's a researcher that I read and that inspired my, my research agenda a lot. Um, who also wrote a book on democracy, which was recently translated to English called Limits of Democracy. His name is Marcos Nobre. And what he says is that it only makes sense to build coalitions with people you don't like. With people you don't agree. Otherwise, it would be just, uh, uh, I don't know, a bar, comedy club, something, I don't know, something other. So, uh, it's very crucial to build coalitions with people that you have differences with, but also, um. Have your non-negotiable, so your common grounds on democracy, on peace. Um, and this was something that was crafted with high um, ability in Brazil in 2022. 

Barbara: Interesting. And, and when you look at your own work, um, so you move, you are in academia, but you're also writing a lot. You're in media a lot and you, uh, yeah. We were talking before, whether you are a journalist or not, uh, who knows? Can you say something about how you are trying to collaborate to both understanding and further improving, reimagining democracy? 

Marina: Well, I think our work as, uh, Democrats, I'm not gonna say journalist, academic, politician to society member, whatever. I'm gonna say Democrats. I think our work as Democrats is to provide public discourse is to be able to talk, to be able to disagree, to be able to convince, to be able to well put yourself out there and talk to people and exercise your political rights and, civil rights as well. And for me, my work only makes sense from the moment that I can talk to people. 

I come from law school, so I did my bachelor's in law and something that would make me feel so frustrated was that, I mean, I was in law school when we had the, uh, we say it's a coup, uh, so it it was a legalized coup.

Yeah. The impeachment of, uh, a democratically elected president in 2016, Dilma Rousseff. I was there in law school and my professors would not say a word about this. My professors who crafted law, my professors who would interpret law, my professors that would implement the law, would not not have a saying on what was happening to democracy.

And that made me feel so frustrated. And I was like, yeah, I mean, it's important to understand law, but more than law, I have to understand politics. Uh, and then I went to the political science department and I found out that, um it's not the department you go necessarily. That's why I try to, to, to talk to media, to talk to, to go away of my, my privileged space on academia and intellectual circles and actually talk to people that um, are interested but not necessarily have the informational resources or the political resources to, to understand and tackle the situation.

Uh, in this matter, actually, I was invited to go to Ukraine twice. So I, I told my family comes from Ukraine. Um, the family of my grandfather, who was in prison in the military dictatorship. And I traveled to Ukraine twice last year to discuss about politics and authoritarianism. This has nothing to do with my PhD. Uh, I mean it for me, it has everything to do with my PhD because it's on, on democracy and what we think it's, uh, what I think it's negotiable and which is the self-determination of people and democracy and the, the peaceful living. But my PhD is another other topic and I traveled twice there to discuss how we could build partnerships between global south countries, especially Brazil, but also other countries from the global south, such as India, South Africa, Nigeria, Senegal. 

Um, and I think this not very encouraged in my circle. So if you see a person who is pursuing a career in academia or who's doing their PhDs, their postdocs, or he is already a professor, uh, you're, you're not gonna be necessarily well seen. Uh, if you are walking through these different spaces, through the different boxes. If you are trying to, um, talk to people in, in the civil society, uh, and trying to be relevant in your field of studies. 

So publish in journals, publish in newspapers, go to podcasts, and I mean, it's very hard. It is very hard to, to be able to talk different, um, jargons and languages. Sometimes academia isolates itself, but I think the only academia that we can actually pursue in a sustainable way through the future is an academia that speaks to the societies, it in academia that speaks to the inequalities we're living and goes against it and speaks for freedom, for the self-determination, for democracy, for peace.

But I obviously, I understand that this is not self-evident and this requires a lot of, um, um, I'd say.. In Portuguese we have a word, which is called borogodó. Borogodó means, uh, that you've got to be able to dance according to what is happening. And, um, dance is obviously a metaphor for, I mean, you have to adapt to the situations and I think if you want to be an academic that is also there discussing matters that are very relevant, you have to have borogodó to really talk to people.

I mean, we know that every profession has its, um hard topics, has its ego, disputes has its fields. Um, and we have to be against that. We have to build networks of solidarity, of a community, uh, because we know it's not, it's not easy. It's never gonna be.

I know no woman that is in academia that doesn't suffer from this. And I think all of these solidarity networks ideas started because you're talking to your friends that are also struggling a lot and, and sometimes the stories overlap a lot. Like the abuses, the oppressions, and the lack of space that they have to show their brilliant ideas and innovative ways of thinking and, uh, building up stuff. If you start talking about this, then you can start thinking how you can cope with this and build up, uh, resistance strategies.

What I try to always do is to think that there's a lot of different people doing different stuff that I have no idea about, and that could be super helpful from my own work and in totally known obvious ways and or ways that we academics, uh, would connect. So I would say, uh, like this deep openness to the unknown, unknown knowledge, unknown expertise. I would say like a plunge. You should go on a deep plunge and have this curiosity of, uh, other ways of thinking and interacting with people. I'm deeply curious to know how, I don't know people from economics think about democracy.

Anyway. I think I also went ahead of this topic, but just to say I went to Ukraine to talk about this and, uh, also because I think that Brazil and Ukraine have a lot to do with each other. Uh, they're both very recent democracies that, um, are still trying to get rid of a, a colonial past, which means nowadays that they are dependent on, um, global north countries that economically dependent, I mean, uh, strategically dependent. And, um, both of them, a decade ago had very important civil society revolutions. We could say that, uh, protests that were very big and they were against the political establishment. They were claiming for more democracy, more transparency, more participation and, and what was the end result of this protest was not necessarily something beautiful, but there were a lot of, uh, democratic energies that were being, uh, ventilated, that were being mobilized. And I think, um, that there's this common path that we should and can explore when we're talking about global south. 

Also, because we know now, unfortunately better than ever, than that, it was always an ideological premise to say that there are very well-established democracies in the center of the world. And I'm saying this with all the caution that is possible because what is the center, right? But, uh, so there are well-developed democracies, well-established democracies, uh, that should be the model, the role model for these, uh, new emerging countries. And they're gonna thrive and things are gonna work, and we see now that this was really an ideology also because there's a lot of crisis, crisis mounting up together. And, um, people, people's lives are severely deteriorating. So their academic, their economic conditions, political conditions as well, uh, climate conditions. And this specific point. I see a lot of potentiality in the people from the global south. They were never, they could never live up to such ideologies. They were always the underdogs that were saying like ‘hey, we don't fit into your models’. So this leaves way more room for people to experiment, for people to try something other. And I think that's why, uh, global south country can offer new critical imaginaries to the world. 

Barbara: Yeah, that's so interesting. And so much of my work is actually inspired also by being in conversation with people from the majority world, the global south. So again, that really resonates. There's so much there in what you're saying around, um, I, I love the dancing. Um, and it also. It speaks to, it's, it's kind of like, it's not a science. Sometimes we, so I've worked also on guides on how do you work together and it's like tick the box and it's not, it's in the end it really speaks, it's an art, something that I think you have to also feel and you have to move with and find your own path also. 

And when you talk about these. These coalitions that are needed or this, this kind of south south collaborations. I think we're all longing for a different type of, uh, balance in this world and I'm wondering how you, yeah. Is there something that you're currently working on or that you're, uh, moving towards that maybe speaks to this building these kind of collaborations, uh, both between research and practice, but also really between countries in the global south that you'd like to, I don't know, inspire us with.

Marina: Oh, thanks for the question. What am I doing right now is, um, I'm still writing for freelance, uh, as a freelance to, um, magazines and newspapers, um, participating on podcasts. Um. But I work in this research center in Brazil and uh, which is called, as you mentioned, and CEBRAP is, uh, act Now hosting this Center for Critical Imagination. Um, it's called CCI, uh, and CCI is a very innovative think tank that, uh, brings together people from different areas of expertise, uh, and trying to take people out of their boxes. So we're talking here about identity issues, right? Uh, what am I, am I a political scientist? Am I a lawyer? Am I a philosopher? Maybe you don't need to define yourself if you're engaged with a democracy and understanding the world, and I think that this is the common purpose of, uh, CCI. And they are currently pursuing analysis on the current trends of neoliberalism, especially in neoliberalism in the peripheral countries in Brazil, namely, and trying to craft diagnosis of time, regarding social networks and economy and politics, far right politics, influencer politics in Brazil.

And I think what they're doing is very important. Not only because they're doing this research that is actually reflects what is the world out there providing us. But they're doing this also in a, a very, um. Uh, a project of political education. So they are also inviting young scholars to do their sabbaticals there and think together a laboratory of new projects of research on what is going on. People from audiovisual economy, social anthropology, journalism, law. So, I think this is very precious. It's not, we're not talking about an academia that is just closed under the stores of a very highly intellectualized, and difficult to reach debate. We're talking about an academia that goes out there and talks to people and is trying to craft new ways of thinking, new ways of thinking out of this because one critical thing that we are seeing right now is that people are even not, they're not even able to think better things from their futures. Like, I don't know about you, but if I talk to my friends bubble, everybody is sad and frustrated about their futures.

Yeah. People are not being able to imagine something beautiful and democratic and peaceful. And this is also a political thing. This is also a political matter of course. So I think this center is being very capable of doing such a high quality research that talks to society and also craft new ways of thinking, new imaginaries for the future if we want to build a future together. And that's, I think it's our common purpose here. 

Barbara: Wow, I couldn't even imagine you come with something so inspiring because that speaks to so much of what I'm also seeing here. So in a way, like some of these things are really context specific, but there's also a universal kind of worn downness.

Marina: Oh I forgot to say about the, the crazy idea. May I? Yeah. Oh, yes, please. More. Uh, I was talking about, yeah, the, the more established ideas. Uh, but to be honest, I think the work of our, and that is intergenerational work, among different generations of people, um, we have to build up a coalition, pro peace and pro-democracy.

The stakes couldn't be higher. Uh, the world is falling apart. Uh, and I'm not saying this just to be pessimistic. I'm saying this because I think, and I'm pretty sure we can build coalitions that, um, imagine a better future together. And, uh, I'm talking this from a stance of a very. Uh, little person in a very specific place, but I think that revolutionary acts just can be built up from bottom up, from little people around the world that come together for a common cause, in solidarity, in peace, in freedom and in democracy.

So I think that's the most one and most important thing we can do right now. 

Barbara: Thank you for that. And here's another little person who'd love to join. [Yay.] The pro peace and pro-democracy coalition. And I also think your story shows how these things have to go hand in hand because if there's something I've learned, and I think we're still pretty naive about in Europe, is that militarization is a very dangerous way to go when we're talking about what's happening today, and our democracies, so how can we build these coalitions and, and keep re-imagining together? And, uh, I mean, for one, I'm, I would love to follow the work of the institute. There is so much to learn from the Brazilian both history as well as critical imagination, I think, when it comes to political education and participatory democracy and budgeting and doing things differently. So thank you so much for sharing that, marina. 

Um, yeah, I'm wondering if there's anything else you'd like to share before we close off.

Marina: Well, I just want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. It's a pleasure. Um, I think talking is the most powerful thing we can do, and we've been talking for quite some moments. It, it has been a delight. I think the most important call to action right now is end wars. Uh, the planet cannot stand anymore wars, and not from a climate change stance, not from a political stance, not from a economic stance, standpoint. Um, so we need to do that and that's why Peace and Democracy Coalition is worth.

On this hopeful note, I would say that the future is out there to be built. Things that seem impossible happen all the time. Uh, and if we talk to, to Barbara from 10 years ago and Marina from 10 years ago, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't think that the world would be like this today. And I think that, yeah, so this can also be a good thing if we craft a radical democratic project for the future. We are in a good, good place. So let's do this together. I'm so happy to know that you're also joining this mission. Thank you. 

Barbara: Thank you so much. And yeah, whether you're a researcher or a journalist or a political scientist or a lawyer or an artist, um, yeah, I think this also, this conversation is a, is a really good reminder that we're in this together and that maybe sometimes the boxes don't help. But we also bring all our unique perspectives to, to what we need today. So thank you for that, Marina. Um, and I believe imagination is, is the biggest act of resistance let's work towards that. Thank you so much.

Marina: Oh my God, that was amazing. Thank you. 

 Barbara: Thank you Marina for sharing your story today, um, with us in these turbulent times. And thank you listeners for being with us today. As part of this series, we'd like to invite you to share ideas and experience with us via our blog or email. So please see the show notes for details on how to reach us and for more about Marina's work. And we'd love it if you share a review of the podcast and share with others so more people can join. Thank you all and ciao! 

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