Prison Break ft. Daniel

Matt: Great. So I'm very excited to have you on the program, Daniel. Nice to see you today.

Thanks. And yeah, I've known you for a few years. We came across each other when I was traveling in India when you were living there, but let's go back to the beginning of your story and you started, I think you've had 20 years on the field but you started in Africa, didn't you? So tell us a little bit about your background and how you ended up in.

Daniel: Yeah. 

When I was 14 years old, I am for the first time. So this slide, which will pictures at that time, and you put them, you projected them on the wall. And I saw two African kids at the age of 14 and somehow the pictures and the doom into my heart. I was somehow a believable, but not very serious, but this was the first time I had a, somehow an encounter with Africa, not knowing what it meant.

And later on, the Lord called me clearly to go overseas when I was about 20 years old. And then I did several survey trips about young reached and finally the Lord yell at this to an Amish people group in west Africa, which had at that time. A million people, there were split on two in two countries.

And he felt that the Lord wants to, wants us to go there and actually share our lives with them at the privilege to work alongside an older guy from our organization. He was working at that time with a different people group. So he was there for maybe six or seven years. And we were then coming to the same county, just targeting a different people.

Matt: When you say we, are you talking about yourself and your wife at that time or did you have children? 

Daniel: That's a good question. 

We actually recruited a whole team before we left the other, and that was our first, I would say challenge and experience one after the other dropped out. For whatever reason, one single lady got married to another guy.

They went to east Africa, which is wonderful. But then another guy just got sick. So seriously sick at home for five weeks. He's in the hospital. He was in the hospital. Nobody understood what he had. And when he came out, the family said, you don't go that's from the Lord. I don't think it was from the Lord.

It was from the attack. But finally we ended up only with my wife and the single lady to first, my wife and I went and we had one single lady who left from all the 2, 6, 7 people. So that was a first, I would say, first setback and this day, Lord, what are you doing here? But then we were telling this people group and we, one thing we really felt strongly, we recruited prayer groups in Switzerland and other places that regularly committed to pray for these people group and for us, some of them every month, some of them weekly and really my father-in-law who is, I think there's probably only vision he has had in his life.

At least that's what I heard when he was praying for his soul vision, that we would be in the Capitol and that the Lord would then bring people to the, to himself. And he would throw them together to take the Lords up, but to get it. So that was like a vision before we left. And really the, it happened this way.

We arrived there. We wanted to, we were invited actually by a local. Government organization to come in and help the refugees in this country, but it was all fake. They just wanted to give a good picture. When we arrived into the country, they allowed us to be there, but they never gave us permission to actually work with the refugees in this country.

So we got stuck in the Capitol. Again, felt disappointed, but had time to learn the language because when they invited us, they said you have two weeks time and after two weeks you have to start working. And we told them, please give us two months to wait and just give a little bit of culture that they say, no, you have to stop.

And finally, we never got the permission. It was all a game, from the political game. Finally good for us. We were able to learn the language. We had a visa. We had no work to do at the beginning. And and then within three months, Because we live with the pool we lived in the same in a compound is 40 locals.

We shared one bathroom and one shower with 40 people in the same place. And we offer three months. We were able to more or less speak the language, not perfectly, but we were able to talk. So we realized the Lord started to answer the prayers from the people back home. 

This thing, a lady, my wife and I walked on the, in the market to buy some stuff. And then a lady started to literally yell at us, would say Hey people have you finally come? And we said, what do you mean? We thought you wanted to sell us some bananas because she was a banana. And she said, I had a dream 15 years ago where I saw the two women that you too, I saw you coming with a book who is the truth in it. Where is the book? Wow. This was really, from a totally ohmage people group.

We were so happy. So astonished. We said we actually, at that time had the gospel of Luke. So we gave her this gospel and she started to read. The book of the, the look at selling bananas next to it, but just going through this book every day, coming to the Lord immediately. And then we asked her and said what happened to you in this three?

And she said, when I had this dream, I was 10 years old. And when I woke up, I was so afraid. So I went to see my father and my father said, this is a dangerous tree. I cannot say anything. Let's go to the booth that Islamic credo teacher, or always wise, man, he will tell us what to do. So this man was listening to the dream.

And then he said, this is a very clear dream. Your child, this child is cursed to become a follower of Christ one day. That is nothing that anybody can. Wow, that goes to the answer from this. And then 15 years later, that's what happened and you started to share, and now she's leading women to the Lord.

We just realized the Lord is really in control. 

We didn't know what to do, but also our first experience, another one I would mention is we realize this, especially in west Africa and north, north Africa, there's a lot of witchcraft going on and I'm coming from a very traditional church.

So I had some experiences with meeting the Lord myself, but we immediately realized unless the power of coach shows up and shows these people who years, that it's not much to go for. And so we had one day of a leader. Again, he was politically active, and we were reading the Bible together and one day he said to me, Daniel, I need to give you my life. And I said life insurance in west Africa and never heard about this.

He started to smile. I started to smile. He went back into his room and came back quizzes show, they call it the iron shirt, but it was a normal shirt full of charms and verses and curses. And it was just a really obvious thing to see. And then he told me and said, look, try, this is used. When we go to war, no bullets, no knives go through.

It protects you from everything. That's the way we conquered all the tribes. And so he said, I know it's not from God. I know it's from the evil one. I would like to get rid of it. I would like to be. And so we realized we took then about five new believers with us, for others. And then they saw this show.

They realized this is the most powerful thing in the tribe. There were new believers. They said, this will never burn. You can do it everywhere. It's impossible. And then I felt a bit ranging. I said, Lord, what do you do? So you went to the beach and put some petrol on it and prayed all day and things suddenly it's just normal.

And it changed the life of these people. Seeing that this is more powerful than the most powerful thing that you in their life, just to say, you know, that there is power in this, at that time, the man was afraid to talk to his wife and didn't tell her when he took this shirt out to the beach, which was about 10 miles away.

The moment the shirt was. His wife back home started shaking here, realized that something is burning. She had no idea you'd run into the room and she realized this church is burning. Having no idea what happened just to say there are evil powers. God is much stronger, but the lesson we learned was we need the power of God to see news in these people's lives.

And so one of the, came to the Lord. And finally, I would say of the 10 years we had a group of maybe 60, 70 people together. And we put some elders in place. It goes beautiful. They know, as it is in these places in pioneering work, if there is waves, it goes up and down with that. 

Matt: So those are a couple of amazing stories of the power of God being expressed and people coming to the Lord that, that vision, the lady had the banana cellar.

That's incredible to hear about as well. 

As you're talking about the waves, are you talking about not just fruitfulness and then periods of very much quiet, but are you also talking about where the church starts to struggle or be broken apart or things like 

Daniel: that? Mostly the second part, I think we have seen people coming to the Lord more regularly, but struggles, some people left the county with the hope to go to America, to Europe, finding a better life, some of our best people that this although, I'm still in contact after 20 years with some of them and they're living there, they're trading, but it was just going to help to, for the church planting in the country.

Other things people fell into sin. That's another point that happened. Yeah. 

Matt: Can you give an example a bit more detailed in that, 

Daniel: for example one guy married the second vice because of pressure and disappointment from his first one.

That was a big setback. Honestly, some of them, because they're so poor when they came to the Lord, their motives were mixed. So some of them after the time, when the pressure came and money came in and they were offered money to go back. Some of them did. So there are different, I would say a different setbacks that happen differently.

And even with the eldest, we are in place, none of them actually made it through filter today. One of them got politically active and made this, his main thing. The other one, as I told you got a second wife so it's not all just positive, but overall, the country today, the, of the believers have continued.

It's growing. There are believers. Across the country now. And in one place, the amount, the thing, people group, actually with another team from us, there are now hundreds of people coming to Christ. Wow. The one thing we realized is, you just give your best, you pray, you do the law thing you disciple.

And sometimes you get this cottage. Sometimes you're very much encouraged and the Lord is building his church. Yes. 

Matt: He's suffering and we can't control the outcomes. Can we it's, I'm sure every individual has a story of how they came to faith. 

But generally speaking, is this just for our listeners who don't understand what it's like to live in the Muslim world or to live in Africa, is this a kind of country where you were living, where you could be very open about your faith work?

Was it preaching on the streets? Was it a bookstand on the street or was it more friendship evangelism? 

Daniel: One of the countries west, north Africa. It's definitely not at all. In this country is officially still death penalty. If you leave Islam. But at the same time and that was my, as I said, that was my first shock.

When I, as a young man, when my older students said, what do you want me to do this? How should I live here? I come from Switzerland. I know I'm never, if animalistically gifted, but here, I don't know. Tell me that. I never forgot. He said, I want you to speak with everybody about Jesus in the first five minutes.

Wow. And and I felt this is a country that you don't do this normally, but and I realized, and he said to me, if we get kicked out because of this of the country, it's all worthwhile. That's why we are here. We don't speak about politics. We don't speak about other religions. We don't speak about anything.

We just lift on Jesus. And that has been my practice for all these 25 years now, or more just bringing Jesus into every situation at every place. For sure in this country, people said every third person that you meet is a spy for the government just to be informant. So we knew we need to share the gospel in a way that even informants could be saved like Paul himself, but others, solar.

It, it was amazing. And we've seen, I would say from the pools to the pool, to the highest people in the government, people turn into. But that was really an amazing time. We never, you know who you could not go to the market or distribute literature, but in your houses or meet people on to one.

Absolutely. 

So we switched the part from not making frame to friendship first and then talking about Jesus. But the other way around in order to filter out the two things to be open and then bring Jesus and make friendship with those people. 

Matt: That's great because the danger with. Really working hard on friendships and bringing in Jesus later, as you spend hours and days and build all these friendships and then you find they have no interest in faith and Jesus, and then you're tied into whole communities of people.

Yeah. It's yeah. I think it makes a lot of sense to introduce Jesus early. You're going to make friends with people. So why not make friends with the people who are spiritually open and hungry and want to know more about the truth? Absolutely. Yeah. That's great. 

Can you tell us something also about what do you do when you've got a few believers?

How do you get them together? How do you even choose elders or do they choose elders? How does all that work? Because we've talked a lot on the podcast with different people about folks coming to faith or a few miracles, or, but we haven't heard much so far about how a church exactly comes together and formed.

Daniel: Yeah. Again, we went through different stages at the beginning. We had about 20 people in my little room and they were older, happy came together. It was growing. But when we went for two or three months, travel, nobody had nobody came back anymore. It was all built around us. So we realize this model is not reproducible. We did this because people are so much afraid. They had no place to meet.

It was the easiest way to go, but not the most fruitful one and especially not the one that could move to. So later on, we realized we need to challenge them to meet in their homes, which we did. And that has helped us to see people meeting, figuring it out in different place. From this time home, they became more stable and started to have, their friends to get it.

And we were not at the meetings. You just mainly were training the people, which was a great step ahead. 

Later on me, we learned again, one of the things that we realized is this, we put the ladder of people following Christ too long. We invited them to meet him as say year to meet him as he and choose to follow him.

We are so excited that people were willing to do this, that we miss the point of challenging them actually really surrendering their whole life to Jesus as Lord. And when we did this, we, because we had, I know afterwards you had, sometimes you have challenging situations when they said, okay, Jesus said this, that is my part.

Or they didn't accept him as Lord. And so it was always a fight then in discipleship, when they read his his, I would say very challenging, also demands and orders of commands to surrendering whole life. And so when we did this service a 50 years old, man, he went home and said, yes, Jesus is really everything for me.

And he was serious following. And then, people started to realize who he was and they called in the family meeting with, I don't know how many people, but there, from across the county, they all came together and said, we heard about this is this true? And he stood up and said, yes, I'm not a child.

I'm 50 years. I was reading the books. I realized that Jesus is my savior and he's my Lord. And I will not stay back off this because he changed my life. He is my Lord. That's who I am. Wow. And so the whole family or ankles brothers, they say this is not right. This is not good. One is proud that they shared the same house.

They built up a room in a wall in between the houses that we cannot lifting, get recycled. Every you want to be doing that's who I am. But then later on a sister and I think two sisters went to Siemens said, we know that you are not crazy. We know that you are another child. Tell us more. Wow. And so we realized this now that you have to pay the price at the beginning, but then he was somehow accepted.

And now he has a, a group in his house or for meeting until. As he keeps in his seventies now, but the 60 seventies. And so you realize paying the price at the beginning, know what Jesus said? If if you want to be my disciple, you have to bare your cross and lay down your life. And that's exactly what it means for them.

And for us, 

Matt: it's easy for us in the west to be a little critical and think, oh, but surely you have to accept Jesus as savior and Lord it immediately. But of course, many of us in the churches here, I think we, people would say, yeah, I've accepted the forgiveness of God. And I want it to be forgiven. I want to know him as savior, but do we really want to give him our whole lives and accept him as Lord of our lives and accept exactly who he is?

Yeah. That's a big challenge. Sometimes even in my life, I think I accepted his forgiveness before his Lordship. 

Daniel: Yeah. 

And, I think, let me move a bit, all my emo, then we move from this place. After it's all happened, we turned over the leadership of the work we were doing of the team. And also, we had these three elders in place.

We felt the Lord called us on to move home to a different place. And even to east Africa at that time, the country that has the most on rich people in Africa still today. And in, in west Africa where we work, there was no church, it was a hundred percent Muslim country with one thing, church Catholics experts.

And they put their art in the front of the building that no local could go in. That was the situation. . They moved to east Africa. As I said in this counter is more than a home that only rich people groups in Sudan that was Sudan. I can definitely mention this year.

At that time, Sudan was north and south was one county today. It's split. But we came in when it was one country, there was about a million born again, or maybe at least a million believers in this country. Many of them, not all of them, at least 40,000 of them spoke brilliant Arabic. It was like their second mother tongue.

So we came into a situation where you had believers around and many Amish people groups. And then. So at that time, we felt we need to, we need to change our strategy. You're going to have a double DNA, which I think is a crucial thing, which means the double DNA let's go and live in conditionally, learned a language culture do with ourselves, bringing the gospel and planting.

As we say today, planting movement, making disciples that make disciples that lead to churches and movements. That's the thing we'll be talking about today. At that time, it was still just, all churches, but our faith has grown. So we said, we want to do this ourselves. And also we want to facilitate the same thing and helping the local churches.

And CBBs that Christian background believers or MBBS Muslim background believers that were some there, help them during this. Yeah, and that was exciting. So we had a vision to have 10 expert teams in this country doing different things at the same time, facilitating the church. And 

Matt: y'all did that go, did the local Sudanese church feel it easy to be encouraged, to reach out to them, Muslim neighbors and colleagues had that been going on at all?

Or was it quite a new idea for them? 

Daniel: It was not a new idea, but it was not the idea, not an idea they were excited about. I think that was the challenge. And I realized, because of background, historical reasons, several people before us tried and it didn't. And I, but at the same time, and that's what I want to mention in that's a little bit, the experience across the world, the church is in these countries are awakening because people have been praying for them.

So when we, there at least one or two were open to start things and one of them actually sent about eight. Tentmaker to several different homage people groups within two years, it was so exciting. It was a whole story behind this and how it went, but it just shows that the holy spirit is at work. And it was so beautiful to see that this load was meant to, to sometimes smaller on each people, groups that no expect could ever hope.

And they went there, they were working as farmers, as teachers, as nurses, and just sharing Jesus with people. We gave them some training. We were collaborating with the leadership of the churches. So that was beautiful. That was one thing. Many others were not so open, but I'm saying, you try.

And I think one of the first thing I did, I went to see all the denominational leaders in this country. And Austin, the question is what are you doing with cousins? And usually know the answer not much. So you learn to get ready. Could we do it together? Could we, and so not all of them, as I said, majority were still not open.

And the impact to see, to see these people, honestly, to go into this own each place still there's some of them, because war broke out again, they had to flee and went to the south and some of them actually were killed. It was but that was because of our situation. And others are still doing the work today.

So he stumbled DNA. He was facilitating it through the local potential workers and doing it yourself as an example. And that was a great experience before. 

Matt: What were the differences between west this west African country that you started in and the east African country that you moved to Sudan in terms of culture or challenge with the gospel or 

Daniel: it's very similar because post lent the governments are Arabic.

Arabic faced governments. Black African Muslims around. So the challenges, it's both counties a lot of most of us from different tribes, those countries led by, by one, I would say one tribe. And then the other being there often, like not, or not really taking care of, or not really treated so well because of the different tribal background or often skin color, different issues.

So it was very similar, actually the pro yeah, exactly. 

Matt: Yeah. 

That's an interesting point. You mentioned even skin color has an impact. We think when we think about racism, we think sometimes about white and black or brown, or, perhaps Chinese and English and so on, but actually even within a black African country where we would say there.

Actually under the surface, there's all sorts of racism going on. Isn't there a tribal level and family level and different 

Daniel: things. It is awful. Like we all are, even with all our content, you have different regions and it's just how human, how humans are. But I think the great, powerful thing is when the gospel comes in into this area of it can change.

It can change enormously in one place in this country, in the second combined. We started as a few believers. There's now a movement going on of hundreds of people, if not thousands, coming to Christ another team of us and our continuous and has been, bringing to the next level to start the joy, to see the first seven, eight people discipling them.

And it has been grown, as I say to hundreds of people so far that, when you read in the book of acts that in I think it was in that first little spread the people who were making these idols were afraid that they would lose their job because everybody knew what happened. The similar thing is happening there.

Big pill, people hear about it and outside is, are concerned that the gospel is spreading so far that they should somehow stop it. And so it's definitely something, everybody knows it's happening. It is not hidden in his area. And so it's exciting to see this, that people. Turning to Christ in big numbers.

Now you 

Matt: seen the impact of the gospel then along those tribal lines. Or have you seen crossovers I suppose, is what I'm asking, where people are realizing that actually our unity in Christ trumps and triumphs over that the ethnic divides, 

Daniel: When we started, not yet this one group today, which, I think we all have to leave the county that, you know, because the government changed and most of experts have to leave back in 2013.

So more or less everybody left the local state today. I would say the reason thing I asked their last 2021, I was there meeting some of these leaders outside of the country. It has spread to 12 other tribes. Now it has crossed the whole thing is now in 12 other tribes, it's still very small in these other tribes, but it's growing.

It's going there. It's just an exciting thing to see what the holy spirit does. 

Matt: That's great. Yeah. That's wonderful. When you see the kingdom having an impact on society, as well as people coming to Christ and yeah. When it all works together, that's what it should be. 

And then what about some of the hardships that you and your family might've experienced, whether they're in Sudan or in the previous country, what were some of the challenges for you and difficulties?

Daniel: Yeah. One of the thing, I would say you got a name, it was important for us to think about was the theology of suffering. I think we from the Western world, at least in my county did, I think in many countries we are not youth to think about this. What does it mean to lay down your life for Christ?

What does it mean to follow him? What does it mean to, all this first is in the Bible, speaking about being ready to stop, or I remember when I, for example when we were still in west Africa and we had this challenging situation , my wife was pregnant with our daughter for, it was about six months and see, and somehow it was not going well.

And in this county, there's only one hospital, but it doesn't function well. So we finally had to evacuate my wife to switch to Switzerland back. And so it was a hard time. She just arrived. We were thankful things spent well, but then two days later we got a death threat. I got a from in the county that we, people would kill me if I don't leave the country yet.

And realizing suddenly you face the things, seeing that people were facing, Paul and Pete, and a lot of the things that was normal life for them in the book of acts and what happened to us when I go, maybe we go this , let's take the next plane and leave realizing we were not really so much ready.

We are actually asking people to pay the price. And when it comes to us, the first thought was just jump on the plane and leave for your safety. And then, but then the thing consorted, right? The moment, what are we doing here? And we started to pray and my wife prayed and we prayed as our people and realized we need to hear from you.

In the book of acts, sometimes Paul literally was running away, saving his life, which is okay. But sometimes he stayed and facing. Yeah. Yeah. Once 

Matt: he was dropped down in a basket from the city wall, wasn't he? I think, and right. Even Jesus said, if they persecute you in one city fleet to the next, so sometimes there's a biblical mandate.

That means we can flee, but other times we're called to lay down our lives for the gospel. And so how do you wrestle with those things 

Daniel: exactly. That excited about the people said to Paul in bowl, don't go to Jerusalem. They will, they put you in trench. Yeah, I know. I believe to go to Africa. Both and realizing we need situation.

We need to hear from the Lord. There's not one right thing to go for. It could be the wrong thing. Just wanting to solve for wrongly. 

We should run away. That's we should run away. But also sometimes you run away where the Lord wants us to stay. So we have to really pray and hear from the Lord. And in this situation, we felt the Lord spoke to us.

We should stay. My wife had peace. I had peace, the rest of peace for surely. Now, when you have a death threat, such a personal thing, you better make sure that your life is, is in peace that you have confessed all your sense that you should, because you don't know where you're facing. A lot of you shouldn't be all the time.

Like you think, Lord, is there anything I steal anything I have to repent from? Because I'm not sure if I'm alive tomorrow. So that's what we did. At the same time, the Lord 10 spoke 12, which was again, a clearing counter for our lives. From then on, into the future was we were praying. We felt we should stay.

But then the Lord gave us this Psalm 91, first seven, where it says if a thousand fall on your side and 10,000 on your right, and it will not come to you. Then we realized this is not a, this is not the first that we could take. And nothing ever happened to us. Not at all. Now 

Matt: we still have problems. 

Daniel: Yeah, exactly.

It means if the Lord hasn't finished the trope, he wants you to be doing even 11,000 people could fall next to your site. It will not come to you because the Lord hasn't finished the show with you yet. So this changed our whole thinking. Meaning if the job is. Yeah, even then you're going, whatever happens, you just are ready to go, but they will eat showed us.

We are not in the hands of anybody who is red then also, who will do anything you're in the hands of God chosen to lay down our lives as a material or something then yes, but it's still in the Lord's control. And if it's not time that nothing could happen. 

So that was a powerful thing later on when in Sudan, I was afforded a few time.

I disappeared. I was in in prison for a few months, but I just had time. I got the Bible back at that time, I go to the Bible in my cell. I just had the Bible and I was reading through the new Testament about the question. What does the Bible tell us about cell-free because I had enough time to do this.

That's the new Testament. I don't know how many times. And let me just say a few points. 

That I really think are so crucial for us to think about when we follow Christ wherever we are, the first one second, Timothy three 12, every believer must suffer. These is just normal, whatever suffering means. Romans five, three to five, change 1, 2, 2, 3, rejoice in suffering.

Be happy rejoicing. When I will think you're not what does it mean to be choicing in my little cell there? That was the challenging situation or, also Colossians 1 24. Let me mention this one that really made me think it says that we must add to the suffering that Christ did not accomplish, but I read this.

The Bible telling you when Jesus will on the cross, everything is complete is accomplish. We cannot nothing towards ovation. It's all a gift from God. It's all by grace. It's all the gift of God. But then this first says, we now must add to the suffering that Christ accomplish. It's the suffering for the only two people groups that we have to do.

Jesus, didn't do this for us. It's our part to look for their salvation, but to help them to understand the salvation that's right. 

Matt: John Piper also talks about this in the, another translation is filling up the afflictions of Christ. 

Daniel: Yes, exactly. Not for salvation for all, for death, not for death, but just that they could hear as a test.

Yeah, exactly. 

And then it says what's mainly important for my kids. When I was in prison. First, Peter three, 14 or four 14, don't be ashamed. If you suffer for Christ, it's called a shameful thing. If your father is in prison for Christ, this is no shame on you. It's actually a joy that was important for them or bless those who persecute, and keep them keep doing good to them.

That's another one in Romans 12 or maybe the last one I want to say here. And then the Philippians 1 29. That was probably the big, one of the bigger one. It says suffering for Christ. Isn't really, we didn't just know you were able to privilege to suffer for you. Knowing him is one thing suffering for him is a privilege.

So when I was in prison, my friend wrote to my son, my kids, the lectern, and said your father was privileged or is privileged actually to suffer for Christ. And trusted him that he could be suffering for him. That's a privilege. You don't feed him. But if it happens to you, you are not cursed.

You are not, you have not done something. It's a privilege I used the whole understanding of the theology of suffering is so crucial in than everybody 

Matt: else. And I suppose. Y the apostle Paul can say I boast in my weaknesses. And even I think that probably includes his scars. He talks about his scars and his sufferings.

They are their badges of honor that Christ has given him and gives to us if it's for the gospel, not just, we all suffer in different ways, of course, with cancer and illness in different things. That's not necessarily a badge of honor. It may be an opportunity to grow close to Christ and realize our mortality.

But when we suffer for Christ's name, that is, it is you're right. I love that word. That's a privilege to carry and a gift that's entrusted to us to learn from, and hopefully testify to the nations of God's goodness, in the midst of that. So can you tell us how it happened? We haven't really heard the story of why you were thrown into prison or how did it come up?

Daniel: Maybe you should read the book. 

Matt: There's a book. Yes. There is a book and it tells us it's called in the lion's den. 

Daniel: Lessons learned the lines then from Daniel while heavy, 

Matt: I will definitely make, mention the book in the podcast notes. Yes. But give us a little summary of how it happened. 

Daniel: Yes. 

Let me go before I ask this question, I'm just going to say one thing about this suffering.

And I would say, I always put this together now is through no, in the book of acts, you see the supernatural act of God always often are relate to suffering. And I think the difference what it is, we as believers, as followers of Christ, we used to pray and fast and. God's presence so that he would show himself faithful to people may be by the power of the word may be by the power of the holy spirit, by dreams, by healings, by casting out demons, any kind of thing.

We should seek this. We should be hungry to see more of God coming down into the people group that we are working. We should pray for this. We should fast for this. We should seek for it any day, the neighbor should see suffering. That's the difference. We should be ready for it, but we should not be, as kids like people as Kathy people, but suffering would be, you seek suffering in order to be more holy and all the, to pay for something that's not illegal.

So I just want to make sure this is, 

Matt: yeah, that's a good point. And also we're not crazy. We don't go looking for danger. We do consider the risks. We think about that for our teams and our families. And like you say, we pray into that. Idiots in that sense, chasing danger.

Yes. But I like your point about ascetics. That's a good, I'd never thought about that. We don't beat our bodies and wear terrible clothes because that makes us closer to God. Like many religions do, or some of the old monastic communities perhaps felt was the right way, but you're right. The suffering, we gotta be ready for it.

Cause it comes hand in hand with the miracles and the fruit. Yeah. 

Daniel: I had an album at this time in prison to go to the book of acts so many times and John Piper against the I please 17 times in the book of acts, we see the word being preached together with the supernatural power of. It seems to have gone together.

Most of the times in the book of acts and then something happened, it was like a, it was like the other, the postals were doing this. I would say three things. They were preaching the work. They were trusting and seeking and speak out for the supernatural. And they were doing the deeds, they were showing the carpets.

So these three things is our task in seeing things happening. And then next to it suffering, go up and down. We don't seek this, but it's part of the thing. So what happened. You requested about how did it start? It is a long story, but it started seven times. And when I was I was insecurity once or twice before I finally arrested, but I was that I was being, let go again and the quick go and continue.

Let me say maybe one thing that really I realized is the tension between being Weiss and the tension of being bold. And this is not easy to see the point, but I think if I look at me say most of the people I know including myself, I would say if we are probably in danger of being doing one of those too much, it's probably being too wise, often, holding up.

I remember, Greg Livingston, I think that many of you might have heard his name, the founder of our organization in one of his last, I think it was his last talk to our organization. He said, I'm still thankful to God for what he has done. We are in many countries, we are able to share Jesus, but we really came in to so many close counties, which was impossible before, and nobody did it, but he said I'm regretting a little bit, one thing.

And everybody was thinking, what is coming now? You know that we said we didn't have enough people being kicked out or in prison for sharing the gospel boldly enough. The, somehow this had impact on my life. You see it is a tension we all need to see. We don't wanna be crazy. I would say just do things that are not, but we also don't wanna be too wise, like 

Matt: yeah.

So cautious that we're not causing us a ripple in the waves or yeah. 

Daniel: Yeah. And so I made a decision at that time, if I want to be wrong on the wrong side or over doing something, let me be doing it by being too bold.

And in, I would say in two other situations where suddenly the government in the Muslim world decided to send people out or to, to ask people to leave and in post or all three cases, it was so clear that whatever wisdom you had, but every. The government you, anyhow, it's not, we would be fully, people do think they will know.

They know there are not, today they know everything. And as we are in this place, the situation let's use our time wisely, but boldly as well at the same time and bring people into situations and bring Jesus into situations.

And as long as we have the time. So yeah that's maybe I would say we, as I say the whole story about we'll do it and thing, you should read 

Matt: the whole story, but as far as you're aware, you were thrown into jail because of proclaiming Jesus to boldly, 

Daniel: add other reasons. Okay. Yeah. And that's often because of the other reasons.

I said, Lord, if I be suffering, I would love to really suffer for the right thing. And one of the four or five reasons, most of us, the right thing. And then the holy spirit spokesman said, oh Jesus, what was Jesus being accused of? He was not accused, he was accused of many cells, but many other 

Matt: things, it was also confused.

Wasn't it? Yeah. Is it fast for me? Is it not respecting Caesar? Is it I'm thinking something about the temple is yeah. Even all the accusations were mixed. Actually. I understand that because when we were expelled from Pakistan, it was the same. We had a letter with, I dunno, 10 accusations on it. I didn't understand most of them.

And they seem to contradict each other. I don't think it was because we were gospel workers. They knew we've been gospel workers for years. They're not unaware of that. Like you say, so you're right. It's hard. Isn't it, there are a lot of factors as to why somebody is kicked out of a country or in your case thrown into prison.

And just very quickly. How many, did you say two months you were in prison? Yes. 

Daniel: Yes. Yes. 

Maybe it's shown to give you an appetizer about maybe making you more interested to get through. They get the bookcase. One, one of each chapter was written or it's written by my wife and a chapter by my son, a chapter by my daughter, how they experienced this.

And this is definitely, I would say probably more crucial than the whole, the Pope to see how am I going to deal with this kind of thing and my kids. And just to see the mercy. And I would say the grace of God instructed because my wife had to deal with so many things. And honestly, a simple lifestyle was never a problem for her, but security things have been always a challenge for her.

And the Lord gave us his grace to go through this in an amazing way where you just can say, the Lord is strong in our weaknesses. That's just one point I want to highlight. This is all, the Lord allows us to faith things. He will be with us if we have to go through something like this. And that's just yeah, it's amazing to see when we are ready to follow him, he will help us in each situation.

The second thing I just wanted to highlight, as you, as I was in the, my little cell, then I was in solitary confinement for all this time. And just had the Bible, had Jesus where I was memorizing scripture. I was praying I was preaching out of the window for myself. I was doing some pushups to keep my body, in shape or maybe getting it in shape because I'm in shape and shape later on.

But you start, I was so close to Jesus during this time. It was a, an amazing experience. 

And one, there are different things that happened during this time, but one time I fell, I was reading through the book of acts again and started to dream. When I read through, how Paul and Silas were in prison and they were worshiping mercy in Christ.

And suddenly, no, though. The door called open table free and the Lord released them. And I thought what would happen? A lot is to say, what would happen if this happened here and people would, they will definitely know that Christ is alive and he is powerful, but I will be free. I was more than selfish.

I would say somehow self is so done, but at the same time I dreamt and said, Lord, you could do the same thing. It's no, it was some of faith in my heart. As I say, probably more selfish, but still a face that God could do something. And the same night, I don't know it's about time. It was probably two or three o'clock in the morning.

Suddenly there was a big noise. And so I woke up, I looked at the door, it was somehow dark. I could only see what still close, but then the next morning I realized that the cell I will see in star wars, half fell down, it was built. This prison was built by the British people. At that time there, the goals were maybe 50 centimeter thick was a huge thing.

And some of the, I could see heaven through this bowl. There was crutches in all three, but it was not big enough to get out. And the bathroom that was being to myself, some of it fell down. So it was really, the whole thing was destroyed. And then the next morning the guards came and said, what did you do?

I said, what do you mean? He said, you sell is the only one that got destroyed through an earthquake, but all the others around are all fine. So what did you do. And I said to them, do you really want to know? They said, yes, tell us. I said, I prayed. I prayed to God in the name of Jesus. He's telling the C and he answered.

And this, they said to me, you're a crazy man. They put me out and put me in an, in a hole, in a good cell again. And so it was, yeah, but what happened was I realized Jesus is powerful. 

Matt: Yeah. If he wants to, he can break the wholesale down. He can break all the cells down. He can let you go. He can keep you there.

Daniel: He can do anything he wants to. And it changed my, there were several other happenings, but this one showed me Jesus, that he is in control, whatever happens. And my, my friend wrote to my, my, my family, especially to my kids. There is always, and it's always end of suffering. God never keeps people in suffering either.

He allows them to get out naturally. That means they will be out because it's done or they could be getting out supernaturally, which is also possible, or they will die and they will be as Jesus, but nobody stays or in suffering forever is always released from software. And so that's how it's been, again, a helpful insight for my kids.

You will not last, whatever it is, it will always be a release one way or another. Yes. 

Matt: Wow. 

I want to just quickly move from west Africa to east Africa and over to India where I stayed in your household or met you in your house and your family. When we were traveling there a few years ago I remember you saying something about life in India compared to the two countries you lived in before?

I don't know if you remember saying this, but just tell us your overall impression of India, where there are also 200 million Muslims who most of whom have never met a follower of Jesus. What was the temperature, the spiritual atmosphere and your feeling about living in a third country? 

Daniel: Yeah, it's definitely was very different because in India, as you say, it's 200 million, the number is huge, but they're minority.

Yes. And not the other co founded idols. The Muslims were always 90% or more. So that's a totally different feeling in one way. It doesn't mean it's easier or more difficult. I think it's just a different approach with the people are not the ruling one state and the oppressed ones often. And that was bouncing.

Definitely. That was their second, I think. In one way, much more developed and the other way, much less developed depending where we are and a life practical life for us in India was just heaven. Comparing to west Africa, east Africa, you could order things, people, things were brought down to your home and even medically, we had the, we extended.

So the practical life for us in India was really easy comparing to 

Matt: the big city in India. 

Daniel: And exactly. Now, if you went out to villages, rural smaller things, again, it will be very different. I would say again, the, the approach into it, what we have had, and it was just, India has probably about 30 million, probably more born again, believers.

Which is not much comparing to what, 1.3 billion, but still number-wise 30 million people is huge. And so our approach to the, to reach the most, most mainly training churches, missions, locals, and BBC CBB, does that to help reaching out to this to these Muslims. And it was amazing just to see India is ready for something like this.

They're ready to be taught. They're gonna learn their own beat out. And it's it's beautiful to see that that the Lord is at work during this. 

Matt: Yes, it's a strange balance. Isn't it? India, because the church in some areas is thriving and growing. They're confident as a people, as a nation, they have media and songs and music, and sometimes I've even heard it preached from the stage and in a conference in England.

Oh, we don't need the missionaries anymore. The church is growing here and we have this vision and we have this outreach program and this and that. And yet the other side of the coin is it's still one of the most unreached countries in the world because the numbers are so big. 

Daniel: Yeah, it is the average, the most average country in the world.

Absolutely. And as I said, 30 million is not comparing to 1.3 billion and put a hundred on each people groups. I think that the church has concentrated on more east where you have full states of 90%.

Exactly. So this is amazing, but in other places you have more or less nothing. 

The good thing is, and I think we probably need to send, we could easily send another hundred ex-pat teams to India in to these cities and it would just be the beginning. So I personally think we need to recruit experts and we need to see people going there.

There are hundreds or thousands, at least probably hundreds of cities. Experts could easily live in Tucson, business and tutor. We need this at the same time. It would be crazy to think all should be done just by experts. I would say the same thing, like I said, in Sudan, it's a double DNA. Let's go and live it out.

Not many people from this. Christians are reaching out to Muslims at all. It's a new thing for them. Cultures are so different. They need to see people going, doing it. They need to see people modeling it. So we need to send that. I think you could easily send the home the teams and not having overdone it at all.

At the same time, I would say if one of these team is not trying to help the local prisons to do the same thing, it would be unwise because this is this double VMA where I think in most of the places where experts teams could leave. You have believers. That's the positive thing. 

Matt: That's true. Cause they're in the cities, aren't they even if they've come from other places where Christians are in stronger numbers there.

Yeah, that's right. They would be in the cities. So yeah, we do. We need hundreds, more workers to go. Whether they're coming from Korea or China or Latin America or Africa or Europe or America doesn't matter, but we need more workers, definitely for India to, to come alongside the local church, to learn from them.

And also to hopefully model something about church planting amongst Muslims. I think for me, it helps to think about India as a continent. I think if we think of it as one country, we think, oh, the church is growing there in some, but if we think, no, this is a continent. It is huge. It's like saying, oh, there's a church in south.

So who cares about Africa? It's covered. It makes no sense, but if you think about India as a continent, then, okay let's look at it. State by state, city, by city, where are the churches? Is anyone reaching Muslims? Then we can make it. 

Daniel: You have a good point, Matt, India has more people than the whole of Africa, right?

So Africa is a continent. As you're saying, we look at India like this, and we need, as I say, India is by far the least three, count three or subcontinent as people call it in the whole world. And it's probably the largest or the biggest challenge for missions. Yes. 

And I think we have these tool, you have these two extremes that you mentioned that some of them said no, we don't need to send any extra witches.

We have so many things can go, just give money and let them do things. We have the other extreme that says no. They're all cut off that don't do things that they will not reach out. Let's forget about them. They will not do it. It's a 

Matt: terrible thing to say as well. Yeah, 

Daniel: exactly. And I think that all the wrong, this goes extreme.

That totally, you have to go through it together and we all do mistakes. We all learn from each other. It's the middle thing of coming alongside learning from the local church. Also helping them challenging them at the same time, doing the yourself. It's this double DNA. I would say that we have to go 

Matt: for that's right?

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Let's keep praying that many will go to the unreached places. That's what frontiers is all about. So that, sometimes I remind people, there are half a billion Muslims just in the Indian. Sub-continent what we're including Bangladesh and Pakistan. That's crazy numbers.

And so few people reaching them. So that's one of our big focuses. Isn't it? 

So Danielle is, I think we better stop there. This has been an amazing conversation. You have so many stories to tell. I love that the discussions we've had on the theology of suffering. And the role of the local church in India and so on.

Yeah. There's so much we can learn from you. I'm going to encourage people to read your book. It'll be in the podcast notes lessons learned in the lion's den by Daniel Haley. So thanks Daniel for your time today. And yeah, I'm sure we'll do this again sometime. 

Daniel: Yeah. Please. Goodbye to everybody was great to talk to you and feel free to reach out. Or you have read the book. There is an email address that you could reach out and give some insights or comments blessings to you guys.

Bye bye. Thanks 

Matt: Danielle. Bye.