Sulieman

my village has been under the control of the Boko Haram for the 12 years now. Nobody stays in there. Everybody displaced. They burnt down the whole village, took away-- My father lost everything he had, and he went on to live in an IDP camp, which is an internally displaced persons camp, where he died four years ago. and I remember that, the Muslims there were looting, the properties of the Christians, that this is their inheritance, that our farmlands would be their own possession because we are infidels, and we have been chased out of that place. We can never go back. It's going to be a Sharia-run, enclave, so we have no right to be there anymore.

Hi guys, welcome back to Raw Mission, The podcast where we hear from ordinary men and women who've heard the call and obeyed the command, often with much fear and trembling, to take the good news of Jesus to the ends of the earth. As you may know, I sometimes invite guests onto the show who aren't from Frontiers. There are so many out there who share our passion for Muslims and we want to learn from them by hearing their stories. I'm Matt, your host, and today's special guest is a pastor from northern Nigeria whom we're calling Suleiman. Now, I've invited him onto the podcast so that we can hear some of the harsh realities of living as a follower of Jesus under Sharia law in that part of the world. He has various chilling stories of churches being destroyed, and gender-based violence. So please note that this episode will not be suitable for some listeners. But Suleiman's faith and love for the Muslims around him, even amid the ongoing and extreme persecution, is an incredible challenge to all of us

Matt

good afternoon, Brother Sulaiman. It's really good to have you with us today on Raw Mission. Welcome

Sulieman

Thank you for having me

Matt

Yeah. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Where are you from? Where did you grow up? And what's your early years story?

Sulieman

Okay. I'm, Suleiman. I'm, from Nigeria. That's where I grew up, from, Northeast Nigeria. so I, grew up, in a Christian family. So in Northeast, Nigeria, especially the state where I was born and brought up, predominantly a Muslim, state. So Nigeria is broadly divided into two, which is the south and the north. in the north is a predominantly Muslim, population, while the south is predominantly Christian. So we have 19 states in Northern Nigeria, and 12 of those states, operate in a Sharia system of governance. and the state I come from, which is called Borno State, part of those 12 states that, practice a Sharia system of, governance. yeah, I grew up in that kind of a place, and that is where the Boko Haram, started. So I am, a husband of one wife and then with three children.

Matt

Wonderful. So that's interesting that you mention northern Nigeria, predominantly Muslim. Many of those states exist under Sharia law, so that's Islamic law. Can you tell us, just for those of our listeners who wouldn't know so much about that, what does that look like in practice?

Sulieman

Okay, in practice, a state that is practicing Sharia law, would mean that the Christians there have, less opportunities compared to the Muslim counterparts. for instance, the state where I come from, to build a church in the city, the state capital is illegal And of the churches there would operate, because there are no permits to build those churches, and almost every church that is being built is, built with resistance. And sometimes I have seen situations whereby the government, agencies would come to demolish the church that is being built. And just, four years ago, there was an incident that the government enforcement, agency went and killed, a Christian who was, part of those building a church. So the news went, all over Nigeria, but nothing happens. And those people who killed them, they were sent by the government and nothing, has happened to them, to the perpetrators. And also, another thing to know under a Sharia system of governance is that even to study in a university, you don't have, that luxury of option to study what you want to. one might be qualified to study medicine, but then because he has a Christian name, that person would not be admitted. Or unless that person would, maybe have to, give a lot of money to some people to lobby and, is a lot of a complex issue. a family friend whom, who had every, to be admitted to study medicine. He applied three times, he wasn't admitted. And then he went to court and had a change of name to, Abdullahi, and suddenly, the first time he tried, for the admission, he applied, he got the admission, and now he's practicing, as Mohammed Abdullahi. So these are just, some of the things that Christians, face under, Sharia. So we are always seen as a second class, citizen in our own, country.

Matt

That's really hard to imagine for us here sitting in England with, the laws and protections that we have. So Sharia law Islamic law makes everyone a second-class citizen who's not a Muslim. That's the kind of thing you're talking about. They call it dhimmi status, right? and in Islam's early days, in early Islamic history, that meant you had to pay a tax as well. I don't know i- if you guys have to do that but clearly there's all kinds of oppression and problems for minorities under th- that system.

Sulieman

Oh yeah, don't, pay, a tax directly just because we are Christians there. But then, a lot of ways through which we are excluded in, enjoying the government presence and, the government institutions, i- quite obvious and everyone knows that, yes, we are being segregated

Matt

Yes. And you mentioned the name was quite important for your friend just even trying to study to become a doctor. So is it typical that in your country most people are easily recognizable by the name that they have? Because even when I was in Pakistan, in the early days of Pakistan's history, many of the Christian community took obviously Christian names, and they suffered for it. And then over the years, some of them started to change to more neutral names, Asif or something like that, which could be a Muslim name but wasn't necessarily from Islamic history or from the Quran or something like that. But, are you saying that usually in Nigeria it's very easy to see who's Muslim, who's Christian just by the name?

Sulieman

Oh yeah, that is, normally the case, especially in, northern Nigeria. Christians tend to use, Christian names, some English names or biblical names that have been translated to the local, dialect, and the Muslims tend to use the, Arab names. obviously by just looking at the name, by default one will think, "Yeah, this is a Christian, this is a Muslim." So when people change names, it confuses, those who are segregating, yeah, and they will think, "Oh, is a complete Muslim name, and he has all the criteria. Why not attend to him?" So,

Matt

Yeah. But that's another form of persecution really, isn't it? To have to use a name that is not your own and not the one you were given by your own family. That's a really sad thing that the only way you can get equality is to change your name to something that's not you

Sulieman

Yeah, it is. It is quite difficult.

Matt

Now, tell us a little bit more about your, growing up there. so you grew up in a Christian home and did you have a freedom to go to church most of the time? when was the rise of Boko Haram and extremism in northern Nigeria? Has it changed over the last 10, 20 years? Tell us more of your own background and experiences.

Sulieman

Okay, yeah, I grew in a Christian family. So my father converted from, traditional religion to, Christianity, has never practiced Islam. And, the village I grew up in was predominantly Christian, and most of the, yeah, villages, close by, they were predominantly Christian. So we never faced an intense, persecution as such, like stopping us going to church or k- people coming to kill us because we are Christians. That, we didn't, face in that form. But then, my father was an evangelist since, late 1960s. and he always, told me that, this form of, persecution that became institutionalized by the government in that part of, the country, came into effect around 1978. because prior to that, they were going on preaching and, evangelizing in hinterlands, and many people were converting to Christianity. So the government brought a ban that, no, there shouldn't be an open air preaching So it affected the mission work, in that, area. And so from there, Christians were barred from, animals. So even if it is a Christian village, for instance, we were not allowed to slaughter animals for consumption. Then it must be a Muslim, because if a Christian does, they say it has been, defiled. So it will not be halal for the Muslims. So we faced that, and my father was at the forefront of the people who fought against this, and the resistance grew, stronger. because we were the majority in those villages. even with that, we had to struggle because the larger part of the state is a Muslim state, so they had the backing from the top. And from there, Christians in that part of, the state were allowed. They can, prepare their animals, their meat, and then sell it for the Christians. The Muslims will not come to buy because it was, by a Christian. So was not that intense, but at least we could feel that we are not welcomed in our own homeland because of the religion of the faith we have chose to. So this has been going on until 2009 when the violent, form of Boko occurred. They've been for so many years before then preaching against the injustice, preaching against a lot of the corruption going on in the government, and preaching against Western education, preaching against a lot of things. So they had, by 2009, a lot of, followers, even educated, intellectuals, yeah, they were, part of, the movement. Some professors, some, PhD holders, some medical doctors, lawyers. They had every, profession in who went on to burn their certificate because they thought, "Yeah, it is no longer useful." The Western education is forbidden. That is the literal meaning of Boko

Matt

so Boko means Western education and Haram obviously bad

Sulieman

yeah. So by 2009, they started launching attack on police station, any government establishment and the church. In fact, the church I got married in was one of the first churches that was burnt down in that 2009 attack So yeah, from there they went on, they were going from house to house killing, Christians. many families in hundreds have just disappeared entirely because they would go and surround that house, kill everyone there. They are not even shooting. They say they don't deserve their bullets, though they would have to slaughter them. Some with a, chainsaw. though they They would have to use the chainsaw. So it was horrific the statistic from the church which I attend, from 2009 to 2023, about 20,000 Christians have been killed in one church denomination yeah, and pastors about 32. These are people I know. These are people, some of these pastors, they've been my students, and colleagues. So yeah, th-this has been the form of the Boko Haram since, 2009. But before then, we faced, other forms of persecution, but not this intense as it goes now.

Matt

Was there first of all, I'm so sorry for you to experience so much of that loss personally with friends that you knew. I mean, just horrible, tragic. There are no-- thank you for sharing that with us.

Sulieman

Thank you

Matt

Do you feel there was a particular reason that things changed in 2009

Sulieman

Okay, yes, because by 2009, even, m-many government officials thought, "Yes, these are the right, people to go with." so by that time, the Boko Haram terrorists have already infiltrated every sphere of the government, and they had a lot more, sympathizers. So they thought these are the people that will bring the real Islam, the real, uh, Sharia. They said the type of Sharia being practiced, there is not the ideal Sharia because we still have, government, officials being elected democratically. So even though they are sympathetic to, the advancement of, Islam, but to the Boko Haram, that is not the version of Islam they want to practice. They want something that is totally 100% Islamic, whereby no other person as, apart from, Muslims would even have to stay there. And so if you have to stay, you have to pay jizya, and, it would be, a very strict version of Islam. So they gave them false promises, and by 2009, I couldn't, see a Muslim in that particular place that was not, in tune with the Boko Haram. Everyone loved them. Yeah, they welcomed them, and, that was how it became easier for the Boko Haram to, launch their attacks. They had people who were hiding them if the military comes or came after them. So, they had a lot of, work, the background before that particular time.

Matt

Yeah. So they'd got a lot of infiltration in local government, local police, and all of that. And so even when the central government tried to send in help, you're saying like the army sometimes came in to try and help, These Boko Haram terrorists would just be hidden by locals and they could avoid, being captured.

Sulieman

Yeah, definitely.

Matt

Oh, so sad. And why were they able to convince so many locals that this was the true version of Islam? Was there a lot of Quranic teaching going on, a lot of madrasa teaching at the same time, just talks in the mosque? or did they use anti-Western feeling and political slogans to really turn people against, any other form of education and therefore the Christians?

Sulieman

Yeah, they used both methods yeah, by 2009 I was in that city. So from my house, I could hear, from the mosques, they're preaching, against, Western values, against, like people, dressing, in Western style taking Western, form of life. So they started blaming the West, and they succeeded in that. our problem is because of the Western people. They say without the Western people we would live, very, good and then things would be better for us, so we have to get rid of anything, Western. And they were having open air preaching. No, state, officials, the law enforcements never stopped them. So by 2009 it was very difficult for them to be stopped because they have already grown into hundreds of thousands. and, when that happened, the government, officials only cared about, yeah, will this affect us? If it is not going to affect us, then no, let them continue, doing what they are doing. And their leader had, two or three times g-got arrested leading to the 2009. But some people, influential people from the state government had to go to Abuja to bail him And then he comes back to the state to preach all this, violence. And then people thought, Yeah, these are freedom fighters, they are going to fight the right for the Muslims." So they will say, "Okay, even the farmlands for the Christians, yeah, they can take. Under Sharia law, Christians have no, right to anything. So whatever you want, can take it." And I remembered, my village has been under the control of the Boko Haram for the 12 years now. Nobody stays in there. Everybody displaced. They burnt down the whole village, took away-- My father lost everything he had, and he went on to live in an IDP camp, which is an internally displaced persons camp, where he died four years ago. and I remember that, the Muslims there were looting, the properties of the Christians, that this is their inheritance, that our farmlands would be their own possession because we are infidels, and we have been chased out of that place. We can never go back. It's going to be a Sharia-run, enclave, so we have no right to be there anymore. so this was the kind of, evil promises the Boko Haram gave the people, that "It's going to be good for you. You are suffering, economically. We take shops of these infidels. We will take their businesses. We give it to you. You run it." So that is how they were able to brainwash people and got a lot of followers.

Matt

Gosh, I'm so sorry. you're right that there's so much complexity, isn't there, within, any violent and sort of conflict area, and there's economics involved, there's politics involved, sometimes colonial narratives, and they can use that against people.

Sulieman

Yes

Matt

and then of course there's a religious language, and they can use texts and language to further their cause. and it's tragic because I'm sure there are other parts of Nigeria where the Muslims and Christians live quite peacefully and quite well together. Would that be true?

Sulieman

Ye- yeah, yeah, there are, especially in the southwest of Yeah, because, I think one of the things that leads to that, those guys, they are well-educated. So the southwest is predominantly Yoruba tribe, you would see in one family split of, Christian and Muslims is very common with them. You would see a husband is a Christian and the wife is a Muslim. So a wife is a Christian, the husband is a Muslim. Like the Nigerian, president is a typical example of how life is there. He is a Muslim, and the wife is a pastor in, one of the churches, the south. So yeah, those people have advanced ordinarily, historically, the north is 50 years behind the south because, yeah, civilization came to the south 50 years before it went up to the north. So that, contributes to that. They live peacefully. They have no religious, like friction as we do, in the north. But in the north is very hostile. Uh, though in the south the Muslims are on the minority, but still things are peaceful, there. But in the north where the Muslims are the majority, it becomes very, tough. It will amaze one that even in like the 100% Muslim communities, they will still have conflict with each other because some people say, oh, they are Shiite, some they are Sunni, some they are Tariqa or whatever all those forms of sects. And they would be heaping insult on each other and sometimes a form of clash. yeah, that goes on. in the north, they are always in one form of conflict or the other. When there are Christian minorities among them, they unite because they have a common enemy. But when the common enemy is not there, then they fight, each other. So the case in the north is peculiar to the north, and most of the time people from the south don't really understand why should it be so, because they have a different understanding and experience of, cohesion between the Christians and the Muslims.

Matt

That's really interesting.

Sulieman

Yeah

Matt

And I think when people have very little education, and it might not just be school education, but an education can also mean interaction with other people. if you're isolated, you don't know what a Christian is 'cause you've never met a Christian or gone to school with a Christian. It's easy then to demonize to say, "These guys are evil. They're taking all your jobs. And it can happen in the West, and it doesn't matter if you've had school education or not. It's easy to demonize a people. I think also this is helpful, brother, because we also can fall into two extremes here in other countries, where we're not having that environment of Muslims in the majority. But these two extremes of, one, all Muslims are violent and extremists, and all of them want Sharia law and so on, but the other extreme is what we hear from the Muslim guys on the street who are preaching Islam. They're the ones who say, "Oh, Islam means peace. this true Islam is all peaceful. It's all beautiful. It's all wonderful." So how do you respond when you hear those two very different views in your context?

Sulieman

Okay. Yeah, in my own, context, I would say that, yeah, the most violent form of Islam or Muslims are the ones who are much embedded into using hadiths. And many of those hadiths, they are very violent against Christians, intolerance, and a lot of, things like that. And people who are, maybe only, adhering to the Quran, they are more peaceful, they are more tolerant and, Christians feel safe around them. But then coming to the other fact that, yes, the, terrorist organization, we have a lot of them, in Nigeria. The Boko Haram splitted into two. the other one is, Islamic State of West African Province, and then recently there is another group, they call themselves Lau Crafters, and they are evolving or devolving different, sects and those sects that are more harsher. But, we can say that all these, terrorists, they are Muslims, and they are all calling for a stricter form of Islam, which they think in their own interpretation and ideology, that is the purest form of Islam, inspirations from these, hadiths. But the, from the experience in my own village, we had some Muslims there, though they were on the minority, but those Muslims up 'til today, we keep contacts with them, and many of them fled alongside the Christians when the village was attacked because they didn't buy into that ideology. And if the Boko Haram, would have known that these people don't support the ideology, they would have been killed alongside the Christians. So we lived in harmony with them, and they never meant evil for us. We keep, contact even today and, many of them we have collaborated on a lot of things. I have supported a lot of them, even though they are Muslims. But, it didn't cross my mind that these are Muslims. These are friends as well because, they also deserve to be loved. They don't buy into this, radicalism. So not every Muslim is a radical and, though many of them are, we still have a lot of them that they are very, humane, they are very, kind to people. They don't buy into this, evil, ideology of the terrorists. So it's, both ways. Yeah, they can be, and some are not. That I can tell you.

Matt

Thank you. Yeah, that's really helpful. I think what we can say is there's an internal battle within the Islamic world, what is true Islam? And the extremists will point to, like you say, many hadith, but also point to the later chapters in the Quran which have much more antagonistic verses against the Christians. And others will say, no, that's not correct," and they'll point to earlier verses in the Quran and surahs which are more peaceful towards Christians and Jews, and more in common, and so on. So at the end of the day, this is the fight within Islam, what is the true Islam and who is correct? So it's really helpful to understand that from your perspective, too. Thank you, for talking about some of those Muslims who were, friendly towards you. now, brother, how have you managed to process all of this tragedy going on in your homeland, and in your state, and in your village, and in your own very family, alongside your own faith in Jesus? how have you drawn comfort or strength, or how can you keep your heart soft towards Muslims when so much awful stuff is happening in the name of Islam by the extremists?

Sulieman

Okay, yeah. most of the time it's very tough to process this because, for instance, in my situation My father had, massive farmlands. He had many, animals, cows and sheep. So yeah, he had everything he needed. In fact, he supported a lot of people. but in a twinkle of an eye, everything has gone. and yeah, though they belong to my father, but we also had our own share in that. so right in our eyes, someone who was in the capacity to help people ended up in a camp that he depended on people to feed him. And then people we grew up in the same community. "These are friends," and, These are relatives." Many of them have been killed, people we went to the same church. So it's very tough and hard to process, this. But we are not moved. The Bible does not teach us to be moved by sight or to be moved by emotion. We don't move by that. We don't walk by that. The Bible teaches us to walk by faith in Christ Jesus. So the sight might be very horrific. The situation might be very hard to process. But then what does the Bible teaches us about this? That's how I draw inspiration from, this experience, of violence and war. For instance, in, John chapter 16, Jesus was teaching his disciples and said, "Look, a time is going to come that they will put you out of synagogue, and some people will kill you thinking that they are doing service unto God." But he said, "Don't worry because I have told you ahead of time." And so any time the Boko Haram comes to destroy a church, what they do is they will start shouting, "Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar." And in their own thinking and ideology this is a form of worship to their God. I tell people, fellow Christians that, "Look, even for this fact that we are seeing the Bible is coming to fulfillment in our own eyes, it worth praising Jesus. coming to the understanding that, yes, we are on the right path to glory, that Jesus is worth following." He can see what is going to happen in thousands of years to come, and we are seeing this, working out. And then, Jesus also describes, that the devil does not come unless to steal, to kill, and to destroy. And that is what the Boko Harams are. That is what they do. Any time Boko Haram appears here, they appear to kill, they appear to steal, they appear to destroy. This is a basic definition of who the devil is. So that means as the scripture tells us that our war is not against flesh and blood, it's against principalities and powers. So my own understanding is that the principalities and powers have hijacked the hearts of this Boko Haram. They are living in the dark. They do not know what they are doing. They are demons that have overtaken their hearts, and they need to be liberated from that. So I see them as spiritually sick people that need to be delivered from this, form of life, and that can only happen through the power of the Holy Spirit. So when I always tell, the, fellow brothers and sisters that, "Look, don't look at the Boko Harams as our enemies." I say they are not enemies. It's just that these are people that the devil has taken advantage of their spiritual status. Now they are just the agents, but the real enemy is the demon that is working in them. of course, Jesus also died for them. They deserve to be preached to. they deserve to come to the saving power of our Lord Jesus Christ. my conviction is that, if we happened to also be among them, we will do the same thing or even worse because, yeah, if the Spirit of God is not in us, every other thing becomes evil in our hearts. So we are seeing, that we cannot do this, commit this evil because we have the light of God in us. And I always pray that more and more Boko Haram, fighters would come to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is our responsibility therefore to pray for their salvation, to pray for God to soften their hearts, and to pray for them to come to this understanding so that God will take them out of this darkness and bring them into His light, in the power of the Holy Ghost

Matt

Mm-hmm. Amen. wonderful. I mean, it's an incredibly godly perspective to be able to have compassion for folks who are doing that kind of stuff. But you're dead right. That is what the scripture teaches. That is the example of Jesus himself. He didn't just tell us how to do that, but he gives us his spirit to empower us to have compassion when everything inside our humanity wants revenge or is angry, and that's Those are natural responses. Nobody would blame anyone who's been through that suffering for being angry. I mean, there's a lot of injustice here. You should be angry. But of course, to turn that anger to some form of compassion and mature understanding of, the spiritual realities here, that's an amazing lesson you're just sharing with us, brother. Thank you for that. I'm sure it's not easy in the, situations when you're trying to convince people. I'm sure you have young people that want to take vengeance or something, and it must be hard for you sometimes to say, "No, guys, come on. Think about Jesus and the model that he's given us." and I suppose we have to not just pray for the Muslims who have been captivated by this ideology, but also to pray for ourselves, that we can remain compassionate when we don't want to be. 'Cause most of us, I sometimes say on the podcast, most of us are more like Jonah than the Apostle Paul.

Sulieman

Yeah

Matt

we feel, you should destroy them, God. They deserve it."

Sulieman

yeah

Matt

Jonah was not a terrible person. That was a very natural human response,

Sulieman

Yes

Matt

the Assyrian guys, they would skin people alive, they would behead people, they would do terrible violence, and that's why Jonah didn't want to go and preach to them. guys have experienced some of that violence. So This is where the power of the gospel comes and the power of the Holy Spirit, exactly like you're saying. Yeah. Do you have any, any other examples of how You know, you've seen some of the local believers or pastors actually respond in love instead of in hatred

Sulieman

Okay. Yeah, I've seen, a lot of, instances like that. For instance, I will use this church, which I'm associated with. it is the worst hit church by the, Boko Haram, activities. They have lost thousands of, followers and even pastors over this period of years. But, they have a department of, disaster relief management. And to surprise, you, they go to certain communities where both, Christians and Muslims have been affected, these resources, these funds and, food supplies is directly coming from the church, but they will also give it to the Muslims. I know some situations they even built houses for some Muslims in a particular community when the terrorists came and set ablaze the of both Christians and Muslims, Haram sees these Muslims as not Muslims enough. So the church, yeah, helped them, in that. So it's a natural thing for the church to say, They are your brothers doing this. They have caused, this pain and suffering upon us, so we will only support our members, but we will not support you." It's natural to do that. Why can't the mosques come and, help them build their houses since, these are their people? But they, yeah, it's hard to follow the steps of Jesus. Sometimes you will look stupid, sometimes you will look foolish, that, yeah, you don't think for yourself. But uh, if we are going to follow the steps of Jesus when he says that we should love our enemies as ourselves, they are not like our enemies because they are also victims in that case. But Jesus also said, "Love neighbors." These are our neighbors. This has happened to them. Even though they are not Christians, they don't go to the church, but then, we have that responsibility to show them the love of Christ. And in that love conquers every hatred, so it will soften their hearts and change their perspective toward, what, Christianity, is all about. they, So we have, many instances like that. And in some cases, Christians would invite some Muslim victims into their houses and feed them and like that. I will give you example with myself. I have a small, farm I'm running despite the fact that the Boko Haram, have hit us hard in many ways, the person who manages, that farm for me is a Muslim Even though I'm a Christian, I'm a pastor. But yeah, I entrusted this to a Muslim because don't want to, do something, maybe to segregate, between people simply because this is a Muslim, then I will say, "Okay, no, I resist any affiliation with every Muslim." No. One has to assess and then be open, and in that openness, who knows, if, in that, way, this person would come to the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. You never know. Maybe I'm just planting a seed. Another person might plant a seed. So we need to show more love, and I have seen many people sowing the seed of love, into the society, even though they have been hit hard, even though they have been, a lot, bruised by the, terrorism caused by the Boko Haram

Matt

Yeah, that's great.

Sulieman

Yeah

Matt

I think sometimes Christians get the idea that if you follow Jesus' way to love your enemies, that means you will be weak, like you said, and foolish. But it also means for some people, then I can't stand up against injustice. But actually, the kingdom of God is both these things, right? You can stand up against injustice. You can advocate for the weak and those who are being persecuted and oppressed. You can be strong and fight in prayer and in justice issues, but also love your enemies. And it doesn't mean the two are opposites.

Sulieman

Yes

Matt

way of Jesus can do both and does do both, because that is the scripture also, caring for the weak and the vulnerable and the brokenhearted,

Sulieman

Yeah

Matt

just allowing enemies to walk all over you

Sulieman

Yeah, and that is why the, the Bible describes that the way to life is narrow. and not many people are able to pass through that because a lot of things have to be, taken care of. So to love the enemies sometimes, I've spoken against how, for instance, the military would go to raid camps of the Boko Haram, and they will kill their infants, their childrens, and their wives. the, the human rights activists have talked about this, many years ago. But then to me, yes, I don't want the terrorism to continue. I want these things to be stopped. Yeah, the, every Boko Haram fighter should face justice, but then their children shouldn't be involved in this. They know nothing. They haven't committed, the crime. some people will think otherwise and say, "No, they deserve because they will also grow to become these, terrorists as their fathers are." it is natural to think that way. That is the broad way. The broader way everything goes in. You don't process thing in a spiritual way, in a way that Jesus would be proud and said, "Yes, you followed the narrow path." So being in the narrow path, yeah, is very difficult, but with God, everything, yeah, is possible.

Matt

Absolutely. Yeah, what you're saying is the answer to ethnic cleansing is not reverse ethnic cleansing. You can't just do exactly the same back and think, "Oh, that will solve all the problems."

Sulieman

Yeah

Matt

we've seen that all over the world. If you come down with a heavy response and do exactly the same brutality, then you create another generation of terrorists and another one, and there's no end to the cycles of violence. This is the story of humanity. This is the history of the world, isn't it? And only the love of God, only the gospel has an answer. It can bring that forgiveness that we need to find in ourselves, by God's grace, not our own strength, but also it can deal with communities reconciling like no other

Sulieman

Yeah

Matt

can do. Wow, brother, thank you. This is really amazing to hear your experiences and your wisdom.

Sulieman

Thank

Matt

learning a, a lot of things. now one thing that did come into the Western news quite a few years ago now, I think, was the abduction of the schoolgirls. I don't know if that was in your region, your area, but do you have, anything you can share about that situation with us?

Sulieman

Okay, yeah, that was in Chibok And, uh, is the only, Christian local government in the state where I come from. Local government would be like a county here, county council. most people don't even ask why was Chibok attacked. The only thing they tell the world, "Yeah, there were school girls being abducted," because the Boko Haram against the Western education, so they were targeting, this school because, it's a Western education and they don't want, women to go to school under strict, Islamic, rules. But that is not the case. That school was attacked because 98% of the girls in that school Christians. And all of those, most of those girls, if not all, they go to the same church I work for. Some of them are daughters to, my, colleagues. Some are sisters to my colleagues. just few months ago, I passed a night in the house of one of those ladies that was a victim of this, attack because, yeah, it happens that her elder brother is a friend of mine, and a colleague. many people don't think about that, and it is quite disheartening that, yes, lot of damage has been caused to these, ladies. Hundreds of them have returned, and more than hundreds are still missing. But the most difficult situation, just to give you background of how Sharia system of, governance, has become a breeding ground for the Boko ideology to thrive and for their, activities to go on, is that and This story I'm going to tell you, I know a friend. My friend is a friend to the family I'm going to talk to you about. their daughter was one of those that was rescued by the military just a little over two years ago, military went on a special operation, and these three or four, of those Chibok girls were found in that operation, and their who abducted them were also arrested by the military. But when they were brought to the state government, the state government recognized the Boko Haram fighters who abducted these girls and messed up their lives for over 10 years. as their lawful husbands, In fact, the Amnesty International even reported this. and they denied these girls access to their parents. They denied the parents access to these girls. They said they are Muslims now. They have nothing to do with their parents that are Christians, and they are not willing to see them. That was the information that went to the parents. Just, six weeks ago, I asked this friend of mine "Has there been any progress made?" He said, "No." Still they don't know where they are, so government hosts them and thousands of Boko Haram will be arrested by the military, the state government will get them and they say, okay, they are going to de-radicalize them. They will fund them, teach them, skills supposedly, that's what they said, and then give them capital to start business and reintegrate them into the society. But the Christians that have been majorly the victims of this terrorism, they are in IDP camps. The government doesn't give them, this, attention The church I, uh, work with, they have about seven IDP camps. The government doesn't send one, pounds to them, not a penny. The government doesn't support those camps. But the terrorists who are the perpetrators of this violence, they are being cuddled by the government because they are their front soldiers, and the institution is there to protect them. This even went to the National Assembly just five weeks ago, the hou- the Senate, tried to pass a bill to pressurize the federal government to stop the state government from, rehabilitating these, terrorists. And unfortunately, these same terrorists, the state government will say, "Yeah, they will form a local vigilantes to fight to go along with the soldiers into the forest to show soldiers the enclaves where the rest are hiding. But then was over the news that the military headquarters had to issue, a directive, a command that they wouldn't like to go with these guys to the bush again to fight the Boko Haram. Because there was a time that as soon as they went into the bush, they turned against the soldiers to kill them. That means they haven't been de-radicalized. It's just a way of, using the state fund and advancing this, je-je-jihadist, movement in a way that, yes, it be seen as, legal and institutionalized by the state government itself. And that was the plight of these, Chibok girls. They have, messed up their lives simply because they are Christians. They have married them, off, and then now the state government is protecting the terrorist. So two months ago in May, then three weeks ago, there were school abduction close to the Chibok where these girls were kidnapped. So in the other one that happened in May, I went to the village. Forty-eight children were kidnapped of these 48 children, six of them are Muslims. So 42 are Christian children, some of them as young as, two year old, as young as that. They're just a toddler. I went and sat with the parents. It's a very difficult, experience. I sat with the parents, and because these, are largely Christian, the state government hasn't done enough to rescue them. And another school abduction in another Christian settlement in that area just two weeks ago occurred, the government hasn't done nothing. But I was reading in the news yesterday that the Boko Haram, if they are out of money, they go into abduction, and then the state government will give them ransom, will pay them ransom to release these people. But, it is a surprise that based on what I read in the news, that the Boko Haram, they have opened window to discuss the release of the abducted, victims, but none of these school children is part of the negotiation. So even in a situation whereby they went on a rampage and then kidnap people, they will sort them out, even if the state government is going to pay them, they will not release the Christians, and the state government would say everyone has been released. They will send the press statement that everyone has been rescued in a military operation. No, in not military operation. It's a business empire that has been established. They will give them money, and, some of the government officials will be settled in that. So the more you think, the more you see, the less you understand. It's as complicated as that. So that is how, things, went on with the girls that got kidnapped, and also, that is how it is now

Matt

It's just awful, just so tragic. And I'm trying to imagine you sitting there with those mothers and fathers of those children not knowing if they'll ever see them again, even if Oh, it's just, yeah, it's so hard to imagine the suffering.

Sulieman

It is

Matt

Brother, how can we pray for you guys? How can anybody help, from a distance? Or what are you hoping can be done? You must feel so powerless, probably so frustrated even with God sometimes about how slow everything is and how it doesn't seem to be much progress in these situations.

Sulieman

Okay. Yeah, I think, based on what is going on there, the violence yeah, has recently skyrocketed, especially, starting from November when Nigeria was redesignated a country of particular concern by the US. Then we thought that would be, the point where the violence would, be subdued, but that was the new normal. That was the new beginning in the violent activities by the terrorists. And from then to now to this time, on average, one church is being burnt down a week and many people are being killed almost on daily basis. So we have become helpless. we appear helpless because we don't have the government to stand for us. have nobody to protect us. So we have come to live in a way and take it to heart that we are in the palms of God. Whatever happens to us, God is aware about that situation. what we want from our global society is to pray for us. It might be hard sometimes this can lead us to ask hard questions. Where is God in this situation? Why would it be us? We have suffered enough. We have passed through a lot of things. So our faith could, come to a point whereby ask, "Is it worth pursuing or we have to pause?" we need our brothers and sisters across the globe to pray for us, for our faith to grow strong despite the challenges, for us to draw inspiration from the scriptures, how the apostles all suffered, how the apostles almost all of them had to be killed except for John the Beloved, and how things, for the early Christians. So for God to help us to draw inspiration from those, passages so that we will be able to live a life that is worthy of our calling even though we are passing through this pain and suffering. then sometimes, people might be in a position of policymaking, they can, coordinate with the government in that part of the world or even some other nations. It's not only Nigeria that is passing through, the situation like this. just in Africa, I think the statistics more than 16 million people are, facing various, form of persecution just, in sub-Saharan Africa. Some people are in a position through which they can help financially the people who are living in the camp. The government there neglects them even if, those funds are coming from the West and they will say no. So some will say, "Yeah, we are infidels. We are not clean enough to have received these funds, and it will be channeled to the people who are killing us." So we need people to stand for us. We need people to support us. So this would be, our wish and our prayers for you to act on.

Matt

Thank you. I'm sure many of us will take that to heart. And, today we've had to use a pseudonym for you, brother, and, we're not gonna talk too freely, but if people do get in touch with me, there will be ways we can get some help towards you if people are hoping they can do that. Brother, I really appreciate you being so vulnerable and so honest, enlightening us, giving us your time, giving us your wisdom today. yeah, it's very challenging for us to hear, honestly, but I appreciate it. you've come a long way to share your story. I know you're sharing it around the UK at the moment, and we appreciate that. Many, during this conference season will have, had a chance to hear such stories, and I pray that the Lord will use your words to inspire us to action, to greater faith, and to greater sympathy and empathy for those in the body, in our body, in the church who are suffering in ways that we aren't. So thank you so much for your time, and God bless you, and I hope we can stay in touch

Sulieman

Thank you, for having me. I appreciate, the concern you have for the persecuted church.

Matt

All right. Bless you, brother. Thank you. Bye

Sulieman

Bye.

Thanks for joining us today, guys. Do get in touch if you want to share how God is speaking to you through the podcast or if you want to partner with us in raising up more workers for the harvest. You can always email me personally, matt@frontiers.org.uk. And if you want to inspire your church to take a more active role in global mission, don't forget to check out the excellent Momentum Yes Discipleship course. You can go through it individually or with a small group. It's free, online, and recommended by lots of mission agencies. See the show notes for details. And here's a quote to end with from Matthew five, forty-three to forty-five: "You have heard it said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say unto you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Have a great week, and do join us next time to hear from more ordinary people serving our extraordinary God in some of the toughest parts of the world