The Power of Gentleness & Compassion (ft. Dick Brogden)

In this episode Matt hosts Dick Brogden, a missions leader with decades of experience of church planting amongst Muslims in various countries across Africa and the Middle East. 

Topics include the power of indirection and compassion, the theology of suffering & survivor’s guilt, and effective global partnerships.

Questions Dick addresses include: What are some of the key factors that help workers stay long-term in difficult places? What is the difference between calling, assignment and role? How can we respond when Muslims publicly challenge or criticise our faith? How do Arab believers help Westerners to understand bible stories from a Middle-Eastern perspective? 

Do check out Dick's books at: https://www.abidepublishers.com/shop

Transcript

Dick Brogden: 0:02

And then there comes your more seismic events where, believers are imprisoned or some have been martyred. for example, In Libya, three years ago, there was a gathering of believers, and this was a multi partnership effort from different orgs. And there's about 40 gathered at a Christmas season. And shortly after that the believers and some of them missionaries were arrested. And that's been over two years now, and seven of them are still in prison.

0:30

Hi guys. Welcome back to Raw Mission. As you may know, I often invite guests onto the show who aren't from Frontiers. There are many out there who share our passion for Muslims to know Jesus, and we want to learn from them too by hearing their stories. I'm Matt, your host, and today's special guest is Dick Brogden, who grew up with his missionary parents in Kenya, has worked among Muslims in Africa and the Middle East for many, many years, and is the author of multiple books and devotionals about God's heart. For the unreached Dick is one of those mission leaders who just oozes wisdom and passion for the Lord Jesus.

Matt: 1:04

good morning Dick It's so good to have you on the show I've been thinking of having you on for a long time Been recommended by a few people to get you on and I'm really glad that you've been able to join So welcome

Dick Brogden: 1:14

Thank you. Honored to be with you.

Matt: 1:17

let's start with something of your childhood or perhaps your upbringing story Did you grow up in a home that was Jesus following a Christian home we might say

Dick Brogden: 1:25

I did. My mom and dad were missionaries in East so I was born in Kenya just north of Lake Victoria and did my primary secondary there in boarding schools. first one was a British school, so believe it or not, I used to have a British accent, and then the second one was an American school for missionary kids. When I was 16 years old walked out of the dorm, looked up at the starry host. I don't know if I quoted the scripture to myself, but Psalm 19, the heavens declare the glory of God. There is no language or speech where that is not uttered. somehow in my teenage heart, it made sense to me that if Jesus was glorified by his creation, then the crown of his creation should be the, chief praisers. And so I thought, you know what? I wanna be a part of every tribe, tongue, people in nation glorifying Jesus. he was in a boarding school looking at the stars that I was called into missions.

Matt: 2:14

That's great And it's not always the story is it you know I've been in some missionary kids schools and some of the guys there have really pulled away from their family their faith you know that kind of Christian upbringing and got into other things and it's been quite a challenge Was it fairly smooth sailing for you Did you see the kind of experience of the missionaries around you of your parents generation and see lots of good and positive things or was there ever that sort of some of this is not good and I'm wrestling with this

Dick Brogden: 2:38

Missionary kids are pretty good at detecting hypocrisy. So I find that either they go all on fire for Jesus and his kingdom, or they go all passionately in the opposite direction. And I've had friends who have done both. For myself personally, I think the great testimony would be to the authenticity of my parents' life. They were such godly people, but they were so real, so transparent. They worked hard. They played hard. It was so evident that they loved Jesus. And my spirituality was formed by them primarily. But we also had a lot of fun. And I'm so glad my parents let me be a kid and didn't try and force me to be a little missionary. I played sports, I went swimming. I rode my motorbike. I played with friends all the time, open home. They were extraordinary church planters. So you're in the soup of ministry, but I wasn't required to be a part of it. I could just play and laugh and, be myself as a youngster. And so, rather than feeling kind of forced into something, I wanted to be a part of it. I was like, oh, let me participate. This is awesome.

Matt: 3:40

That's really good Yeah That's encouraging and challenging for us who are parents now then what about people saying to you you grew up in Kenya Was that hard because you missed out on being in the west and all this amazing education and wealth and so on Did you grow up in a fairly poor environment and do you just see the benefits of that in different ways

Dick Brogden: 3:59

Absolutely. I rise up and call my parents blessed, so thankful that I was born on the field. My boys also, I have two boys walking with Jesus during their twenties now. Both in ministry, one of them in missions, they were born and raised in the Sudan and you know, Sudan was even rougher than Kenya. But they didn't know any better. I didn't know any better, and we just loved it. So what I've noticed over the years is the problem is never the children, the problems, the parents. And if the parents, you know, speak well of culture, if they speak positively of whatever is available, then the children, they reflect that. if parents at home are kind of being snipy about context, culture, other missionaries, governments, politics, whatever, the kids pick up on that. I always encourage young parents, your kids are gonna be fine. They're resilient, they're gonna love it. And so much depends on your attitude and your posture towards others and what you say in private, your kids will live out in public, down the road.

Matt: 4:55

Wow that's insightful and very encouraging too So yeah Tell us more what was the rest of your journey then into life and obviously marriage and having your own family and getting to the field yourself as a long-term worker tell us that whole story

Dick Brogden: 5:11

So when I went to Bible college, I had this love for Africa. I had this 16-year-old calling towards missions, and because my dad was a pioneer. He worked up in northern Kenya amongst the Turkana. This is in the seventies. And so they were very, primitive. You know, my mom, dad, very conservative Pentecostal background and the Turkana at that time, the men sometimes didn't wear anything. The woman had a leather skirt and nothing on the top. you know how it is in these very animistic simple societies. Babies are just being nursed freely and sometimes you don't even have to be the mom. So anyway, I grew up in this environment it was exciting. to see Jesus proclaimed and understood contextually where he had never been proclaimed. So that's in my heart. But Muslims was not on my radar until I went to university. And we had prayer meetings every Friday for the Muslim world and we had missions convention and people shared about reaching Muslims. And so that third piece kind of clicked to me. I loved Africa, I had a heart for the unreached. And then, wow, look at this whole segment, this affinity block in the world that has such little access to the gospel. So at that time, it kind of cemented. So then I wanted to go somewhere in Africa that was Muslim and Pioneer and so I early on knew that I wanted to pioneer in Sudan. But as far as doing that, married, I had dated a girl in high school, sweet girl. we broke up and I thought, oh, that kind of stinks. I'm not gonna do that again until I meet the one that I marry. we have in America these big yellow legal pads, you know, line paper. And I, I wrote all the qualifications that I wanted in a wi, I said, I'm not going to date until I find somebody who matches all these things. And back in the day, in my tradition, the wife needed to sing alto and play piano to support the ministry, you know. But I met Jennifer and she's beautiful and godly and prayerful and call the missions, but she couldn't sing or play the piano. And I thought, okay, maybe not so important. Scratch that off the list, you know? And so just fell in love with her. But I was afraid, and I thought. She's American, she hasn't been overseas. What if I go to Sudan and she can't make it? What if it's tough and she doesn't want to stay? She's amazing. She's one of the strongest, kindest people I ever known. She's actually very quiet and very introverted, but she has steel in her soul and in some ways very tougher than I am at the spirit heart level. Anyway, so we got married. I didn't want to go right to Africa. obviously newly married, So I waited two days and then we went after two days to Africa and, you know, I'm, back home. I'm loving it. Grew up in this communal culture. Lots of people in the home all the time. She's from West Michigan. Very few visitors, if ever, you know, her uncle and her aunt all live in a row. And very small nuclear family. First month of marriage. We had 40 house guests like living with us in that month. And so she's trying to figure out me, and she's trying to figure out cooking in Africa, and she's got all of these African House guests living with us. and there can be some demands and expectations hospitality wise, which are very different than in the West. And she's like, oh my goodness. what have I done? But again, she's really loves Jesus and has this internal fortitude that's remarkable. So here we are all these years later and better than ever.

Matt: 8:22

Wow amazing So when you went out as a married couple then did you say you went straight to Sudan at first or did you go somewhere else

Dick Brogden: 8:30

No, we actually went right to Kenya because my org had this rule To be fully appointed, you needed to have some pastoral ministry experience. A lot has changed back in the day, this is now again, eighties, early nineties, you had to be a pastor for two years, 35 years old, and less than two children to be fully appointed. That has all changed now, but they had this program called Missionary in Training where you could actually get that ministry experience as an apprentice under another missionary on the field. So I actually went to Kenya and we pastored a multi tribal church. And then from there, that was for a year. Then we went up and worked with the Samburu people who at that time were unreached. Now they are, and they're kind of a subset of the Maasai. If you haven't heard of the Samburu. we built our own house, mud and sticks and dug our own little pit toilet and no electricity, bring water from the river. I wasn't very good at building. I built the roof too short, so it just sat on the walls and rain would come in. And if anyone's seeing the Lion King, the Disney illustrators were sent to where we lived to draw it. So think lions and elephants just all around us. And it was wonderful, but we had a short-term team come. And we're under trees, pastoral people, goats and camels around. And we're doing these Bible story sets. And so I had these young people share some type of testimony. I would put it into Swahili. I speak Swahili'cause I grew up there, but they're tribal. So the men would understand Swahili. But the women, only Sam, were the trade language. So we had English, Swahili, bu well, this young girl starts telling the footprints in the sand poem. And if you've never heard that one, it's somebody has a dream. They're looking back at their life in heaven. Two sets of footprints, hardest times one set. They say, Jesus, why in the hard times did you leave me? And the line is, you know when you saw only one set of footprints in the sand, that's where I carried you. Anyway, she's telling this story and for whatever reason she gets to footprint and my mind blanks. I'm like, what's the word for footprint? And I couldn't remember. So I turned to, my pastor, made a footprint in the soil, said, what's that? And he says, oh, that's mavi. I'm using the word mavi for footprint in the testimony, but something is wrong and I don't know what the people are caulking their heads and looking at me, side eye like what is he talking about? But something's not working. When I had stepped to make the footprint, I stepped on some goat droppings and so he gave me the word for poop and not the word for footprint, you know? So I get to the end of this testimony when you saw only one set of poop in the sand, that's where Jesus carried you. And the people are like we don't get it. What's going on? So multi tribal experiences, living very simply. It was wonderful. I mean, we look back at that, it didn't have kids at the time. It was some of the most delightful formative years for us in cross-cultural work.

Matt: 11:14

it does show the importance of language learning whether you grew up in a place from scratch like many of us have to do Yeah We've all got a few crazy language mistake stories That was good Okay So Northern Kenya and then from there

Dick Brogden: 11:28

Yep. Then we went to Sudan, and this is 1994. We took our first visit in 1989. There had been an Islamic coup, and so the ideologue was Hassal Tobi. the military general was Omar Bashir. And so a Northern Sudan did have some Christian minority southerners that had come up through the long civil war, but for the most part was Arab and Muslim, and that's where we really cut our teeth. If I would go back very quickly, I was a year ahead of Jennifer in Bible school and I didn't want to get married until she finished. So I went to one of my missionary uncles and I said, uncle Dell, I wanna go summer to learn about church planning in the Muslim world. He connected me with a Frontiers team in a difficult location in North Africa. And so I went there for six months and these were some of my heroes. I mean, these are tough guys. They'd come through that civil war in 1992. In this country and 99.99% Muslim, and they live very integrated into community. When they received me at the airport, their idea of your kind of first imprint would be by locals, not by other missionaries. And so they arranged for me to live in a slum area with this old grandma and her granddaughter. And they intentionally lived at the level of the poor. So no electricity, no running water, no furniture, a little mattress, you know, and a little broom and lantern. And I didn't have any Arabic. And and yet they wanted your first two weeks to be culturally immersed so that you're really imprinted by locals at the beginning. So, you know, I'm just getting up in the morning and following people to breadlines and pointing at stuff. I had no words And yet I learned so much over that six months from the team about language, about context, about prayer, about pioneer work and what has become over the years, the lived dead movement, which has now gone global, was formed out of my Frontiers team experience. And I've taken a lot of that language and understanding and structure into my org and into the partnerships that the Lord's helped us create. that was foundational for me. So when we went to Sudan, very different than the Kenya experience where had this kind of accepted and public church identity, we had to restart. And very challenging, but very rewarding as well.

Matt: 13:43

What was your identity in Sudan How did you describe yourself to people there and were you working in the Arab North then

Dick Brogden: 13:50

We were in the Arab North. Yeah. Up in cartoon. I went through a range of things and some of it, which is a longer conversation, physiologically, I even tried an identity at the front end that now I'm very opposed to, I tried insider identity at the beginning and I would describe myself as a Muslim that follows Jesus in my initial encounters. And why I am so opposed to that. for the missionary, that insider identity now I tried it and I worked through that and I saw all of the negative implications of that over time. And so I migrated from that over the years to first kind of a neutral identity and where I landed on ultimately, and I'm not saying it's for everyone. But for me and my personality, I'm an evangelist. I'm better at evangelism than discipleship. So please don't tell me your secrets'cause I can't keep'em, I'm an announcer, I like to proclaim. I don't do black If I can use an American idiom, I suck at Black Ops. so I publicly identified with the church. I didn't use the missionary word necessarily. I did use the word pastor, Bible teacher Christian Church. I adopted those terms. And much like my philosophy of this, as Muslims have done, they haven't backed away from any of their problematic terms, like jihad or whatever. They just say, oh, no, no, no, no. It doesn't mean that it means this. So with church or Christian, oh, no, no, no, no. It doesn't mean that this is what it means. Not only do I want you to go to heaven and have eternal life, there's all these people back in my country and all these churches, and they're giving me money so I can be here so we can have this conversation so that you can go to heaven. Isn't that great? You know, so rather than being embarrassed about being church supported or church connected, I embraced it and I celebrated it, and I front footed it. for me, that worked best. I'm, again, not saying that's for everyone.

Matt: 15:34

of course Yeah Different people will find different ways but I do remember our founder of course Greg Livingston you probably know him who died this year he would be the same he was asked

Dick Brogden: 15:43

Yeah.

Matt: 15:43

He'd say of course I'm a missionary I love

Dick Brogden: 15:46

Yeah,

Matt: 15:47

on a mission you know and he would just go

Dick Brogden: 15:49

yeah, Yeah.

Matt: 15:50

why not You know in the places he worked it worked so

Dick Brogden: 15:53

Yeah.

Matt: 15:54

good Okay So yeah What were some of the highlights of life and you know the beginnings of church planting I suppose where you were Was it really starting from scratch What was the situation

Dick Brogden: 16:07

There were believers, one believer here, one there, you know, that were kinda weird and marginalized and dependent on money and all these different things. So yeah, it was really pioneer ground. So again, we had to jump into language because I'd only been six months in Mauritania and I went to one of those public churches first. Early on they invited me to preach and I preached. And in this tradition, you stand at the door, everybody files out and shakes your hand and you say, God bless you. And they say, thank you for the sermon Pastor. Six months in language school, I went back, I said, Nope, not gonna use a translator. I'm gonna preach in Arabic. So preached in Arabic, and you know, six months in it was Jesus. Good, good devil, bad, bad mission. Go, go. You know, it's about that level. It was very simple. So I'm standing at the door afterwards in this whole air Christian Guy walks out, shakes my hand. He says, pastor. Thank you so much for preaching in Arabic. Please never do it again. It was so terrible, you know? So we had to at the beginning. We had to do language and culture and we were in language school six, eight hours a day. And you know, my observation is for those who are church planting in a pioneer Muslim context, it actually takes you about 10 years to really get to this place where you're kind of seeing multiplication. The tragedy on that, and, and you're probably aware of it, that some years ago a longitudinal study was done across the orgs for those who pioneer amongst the unreached, and the average length of service is about seven years. So you have a math problem. You know, most people, and this is a little pejorative so forgive it, but most people are not enduring long enough to see the breakthrough for whatever reason. And some reasons are good. Some are bad as far as attrition, but I'm just saying. Pioneer work is tough and long. And if you're listening, give yourself 10 years. That's pretty normal, you know? And about that 10 year mark, you can do things with one phone call that before would take you three months. You know, things accelerate a little bit over time and that's not magic. So those first years were slow. It was language, it was culture, it was relationship. And there was other missionaries there. A sweet guy from Sweden took me under his wing just to know how to share the gospel in that context. part of this was his personality. But there, there's a principle here too. He would take me with him and we'd go. Sudanese houses, courtyards with a flat roof, you know, mud walls. And you'd be sitting out and under the palm trees and they're serving you lemon juice. And the moon is there and the breeze is going and it's hot, 120 degrees at night. And so, you know, it just this very rustic setting. And, and we get into conversations about faith in the gospel. And what I learned from him was to be so biblically Jesus centered in such a patient way because he'd begin to share and they'd interrupt and they'd harangue, you know, and go, and this da da da da. And he would just nod his head and he'd listen till they kind of spent themselves. And then it didn't matter what they said, he basically would ignore it. And he'd go like, oh, that is so interesting. But the Bible says, and he would just pick up where he'd left off, you know, and he'd go back and he, in his just sweet Swedish way, he was a bulldog. You could not get him off that gospel bone. He wouldn't get sidetracked into politics or into some of the more inflammatory discussions. He'd nod his head and he'd smile, oh, that's so interesting. Thank you for sharing. But the Bible says, da da da da da. And so my point is, for years in pioneering, you're just a learner and you're learning from Muslims, you're learning from colleagues, you're learning from new believers back to a lesson that was really gripping for Iain, had gone out with the guys to do a humanitarian visit and we were working with a veterinarian who was a prince of a man, a Muslim, one wife, high integrity character. And I'd never. Seen it before, but he was so concerned about my soul that when he would share with me about Islam, he would weep. He so passionately was concerned that I was on the wrong path. And so winsomely, he would just, weep that I would not embrace Islam. I'd never seen that before, you know? And so I learned from that too, that when we share with tears in our eyes, that's a lot louder than when we're antagonistic, you know? And I'm an apologist too. But from that Muslim man and from the Swedish man, the power of gentleness, the power of deep compassion, when you share, it's very profound.

Matt: 20:40

Yeah that's really good It matches something I experienced in Pakistan whereby in a culture of shame and honor it's not my job to correct everybody so even if I said something wrong they would just turn away a little bit or ignore it but they don't straight into an argument because it will Ruffle the feathers in the room and upset everybody and dishonor maybe the host who's brought you all together So I think that is really powerful Stick to Jesus Don't get caught up into useless arguments and there is a place for obviously strong apologetics around the tougher issues but so often we're there to speak about Jesus to tell the stories of scripture And we don't need to be sidetracked and we don't have to answer every question they raise in that moment especially in a public context

Dick Brogden: 21:28

Yeah, so in line of the time for apologetics and focusing on Jesus, another mentor of mine in the early years was a Catholic priest and he was one of the white fathers, if you're familiar with North Africa, which is a very evangelistic order. He was in his seventies. He had been the head of Muslim Christian relationships at the Vatican. He spoke multiple dialects of Arabic as well as French and English., He was from France just a prince of a guy. This guy knew Jesus. You know, there are some in the Catholic church that just know the Lord and this was one of them, a prince of a man. So he became like my tutor and he was so well versed in Islam Anyway, he's down in the market in cartoon and it. Was a hot day, and he's accosted by an Islamic preacher. And this ideologue was ranting and raving and, and shouting at him. And basically the haran was about Muhammad versus Jesus, right? So this very inflammatory topic, and he's just going on about this, and a crowd begins to gather and the crowd is you know, a little emotional and uneasy., And his Arabic is superb, right? So I should qualify. He has gray hair, superb Arabic. So he is listening and this guy is just insulting Jesus and comparing him to Muhammad. And so he's, he told me later, he said, I wanted to say something, but you know, what do you do in an open space like this that's very, very volatile. So he just listened and listened and listened. Finally, the other guy paused, and this French priest just reaches out, puts his hand on his shoulder, and he says, so super gently and perfect Arabic. He says, my brother, let me ask you a question. If Mohammed was at one, well, and Jesus was at another well, to which well would you send your wife to draw water? And the man looked at him. Put his head down and walked away and the crowd just dispersed This priest used indirection to say something very, very powerful. He said something without saying it and he said it so gently and so powerfully. So my point here is in these cultures you mentioned honor and shame, but indirection, it takes you a while to learn the power of indirection. And sometimes from the west, we think we have to be so direct, but we can really communicate well if we learn the skill indirectly.

Matt: 23:54

Wow really interesting Okay Let's get back to your story then tell us more about cartoon in those days and how it all developed for you

Dick Brogden: 24:02

I think one of the foundational principles that I learned there, and I tell all our missionaries now, when you go to a new context, very rarely are you the first one in or the only one there. And so what we want to do in our approach to partnership is if there is a partnership, join it. If there isn't one, start it. The assemblies of God can't reach the world. Frontiers can't reach the world, the Americans can't reach the world. It has to be all of God's church. Taking all of God's gospel. It's all of God's world. So what I have found in Sudan and then in other places where we've worked like Libya and Syria and Saudi and others, that the more difficult the context, the better the unity amongst the workers. When you're intentional about it, and the where there's a proliferation of churches and missionaries, the unity kind of dissipates because you don't, you're not as conscious of of your need of the other. And so early on in Sudan with two I and B Brothers, who I love from the bottom of my heart, we're from different traditions, have different views, you know, on the operation of the Holy Spirit and some important things. But in that radical context, we're like, what's the main thing? The main thing is Jesus and his kingdom and people being saved in eternal life. So we together, the three of us, started what we called No Sumu, which was short for Northern Sudan, Muslims. And it was a partnership across all the agents and the local believers and these diaspora churches on, on planning the church amongst Muslims. And it was beautiful, the prayer and the strategic thinking and the collaboration and the sharing of resources and mutual encouragement through testimonies and bearing one another's burdens and all the different church planning orgs were a part of that. And it was just so, so beautiful., And it was difficult, you know, the regime was difficult when we first went. In the early nineties, there's curfews at night and roadblocks across the city, and you have to have a permit to wipe your nose. You know, just, everything was so controlled, nothing in the stores. They had potatoes, onions, and maybe tomato paste. And if ever there was something like butter, you know, the little text would fly. There's butter at Farouk's, and everybody would jump in their car and try and go and get, you know, that one box of cornflakes or whatever. So things were really hard, but it, you just really bonded with one another. And so the spirit of unity and working together, I would say if I would take one lesson away from the Sudan years, it's the beauty of the body of Christ. And I will say this on partnership. My conviction is we partner for what we can give, not for what we can get. Because sometimes we have this kind of selfish orientation, well, what will I get if I, join that Bible translation team? Or if I work with this consortium, does that do for my org? What does that do for me? And I think that's wrongheaded. I think if we say, Hey, we're gonna add value, we're gonna approach partnership, and we're gonna put some effort in it to bless others. Invariably, you always receive more, you always are more blessed. So I would caution new missionaries, because sometimes there can be a little bit of, arrogance. Like, my time is too important to invest in somebody else's vision or I'm called to do this and I need to put all my energy here. And I understand that. being focused, but I would also say when you give, it's a biblical principle. We give because God's a give.

Matt: 27:25

Yeah on that note would you say are personal lessons that you learned about Jesus the Kingdom of God mission from your African brothers and sisters now that could be Kenya Sudan or diaspora immigrants in Sudan where you lived what are the lessons for the Western church that the African church are teaching us these days

Dick Brogden: 28:31

Yeah, I am so thankful. For the community because hermeneutics is best done in community and it is best done in global community. There are aspects about God and theology that we cannot fully know. Mono culturally. We need other lenses to help us understand where would the American church be if we didn't have the Chinese to tell us sufferings part of it, or the Latins to say poverty is still under God's blessing or community from the Africans is how we roll, in our individualistic society that is affluence and has all of these nationalistic tendencies now increasingly mixed in, we need these other nations ethnic of the world to help us not only understand the Bible, but understand the Christ. So I have been very, grateful From. a sovereignty perspective, because, a weakness from the West that is a strength in African or global south cultures, in 33, 34 years of this now, we've seen a lot of missionaries come and a lot go and some get off that plane and they're all shiny and charismatic. You think, oh, these guys are gonna go great. And then three years later they're gone and others get off the plane, they're frumpy and weird and odd, and you're like, oh, Lord, help us. And 20 years later they're still there, you know, and they're plugging away. you're like, what's that X factor? Because you certainly can't tell by looking at the outside. Anyway, multiple answers here. But the, critical one is those missionaries that have theologically determined God is sovereignly good in all he does, in all he allows, they're unshakeable. But those missionaries who have only experientially determined that. They don't last. And here's why. In an American theology of God's goodness, God's good because I got promoted, my kid was healed. I got the visa, I was able to work through the sickness or whatever. And all those things are true. God is good in that. But if the determination of God's goodness is good things, then what does that say about God? When you don't get healed, you don't get the visa, you have the home invasion, you're expelled. You have a bad leader, you have bad colleagues. What does that say about God? So what I've found is with Africans, they have settled because their experiences have been tough. Their understanding of the goodness of God is now again, we have the wacky prosperity stuff that is expanding, but I'm saying essentially for that biblical African Christian, because no culture has a corner on theology, right? But for those so many Africans, they've had such a difficult experiential life. And yet in that have come through believing God is. Wow, that has been so helpful for me from the West to just remind myself, have to theologically determine things above my experience because God's character is broader than my little snapshot of experience in life.

Matt: 31:15

Yeah so good What you're saying is we can learn so much from the global South or the African church the Eastern Church the character of God about having a solid theology of suffering a biblical view of suffering but would you also say I think something I've seen too is how to present the gospel the different multifaceted ways of even communicating who God is what he's done through Jesus there are different ways that we can learn from locals So I think when you're talking about partnership there are so many blessings there that we wouldn't maybe imagine with folks other denominations other people on God's team different organizations out there but also local believers brings such wisdom and wealth to us don't they in that regard

Dick Brogden: 31:56

They do, and they understand process and time so much better than we do, and they also negotiate gray much better than we do. We are so forensic with our Greek and Roman background, we're so legal. We're Romans road, you've been declared righteous. this is all forensic languages. And they understand fear, power, dynamics. They understand, as you said, honor, shame, dynamics, and they understand process they can handle gray and transition times much better than we do. And it's not just believers. from Oman, a story from the Arab world, Andrew White has a wonderful book called Jesus of Arabia, and in it he tells the story of going to Oman and giving the Luke 19 text to a bunch of Omani Muslims and just has him read it all loud. And this is the story of Zacchaeus. As they read it, they don't like it. they're tuting and he, can't figure out what's wrong, what's problematic about Zacchaeus. They hand the Bible back to him. They say, this isn't good. What Jesus did was wrong. We don't like it. And so he's kind of confused. He says, unpack that for me. And they said, in our culture, no man can invite himself into another man's house. we have the, harem. We say now about haram the protected space for the ladies. That's, a safe zone. So no man can presumptuously say, I'm coming to your house. They said, not even the ultan of Oman could insist they come into our house. He would have to wait to be invited. And then the Muslim guy says to him, in fact, the only one. That has the authority to invite themself into another man's house is God himself. And then the Muslim's like, oh my goodness. Jesus was claiming deity when he said, Zacchaeus, come down. I'm coming to your house. and the missionary that had given the Bible was like, oh my goodness, I've read that Zacchaeus story a hundred times. I never saw Jesus making a divine claim when he said, Zacchaeus, I'm coming to your house. And so this whole concept of a Semitic origin for the scriptures and being read through a Semitic lens, we can learn so much from either the Muslim or the seeker or the new believer.'cause they're approaching the scriptures a whole different way than we are. And it's revelatory. Can I give you one more from a Saudi perspective? I was in a leadership meeting an elder, saudi man who's come to faith and a beloved brother, he was doing communion for us, a group of visionary leaders in the Gulf. And he was unpacking John 13. And John 13 begins having loved his own. He loved them to the end. And it's this story after Jesus, has washed their feet and they've been arguing about who's the greatest and it's the last supper. And so he asked us a question, he said with Peter's personality and. All the disciples around him when Jesus told them that one of them would betray. And then Peter signals to John, ask him who it is. And John asked Jesus, and Jesus says, the one that I dipped the bread in the cup with that will be the one that betray me. he said it was Jesus told him, and then he dipped it with Judas, and then Judas gets up to betray him. Why didn't Peter tackle him? Why didn't the disciples stop him? You know, he he was asking us that question and he said Every element in the Passover meal had Old Testament, referent. these were Jews. They understood what the His meant. The, four cups, you know, they understood what it meant in the unleavened bread. So he said, when Jesus referenced the one that dips the bread in the cup with me, it had an Old Testament precedent. It happened one time in the Old Testament, and he said it happened in the book of Ruth chapter two when Boaz says to Ruth, dip your bread in my cup of vinegar. And by that he's offering her kinsman redeemer protection. what I think was happening in that moment is Jesus is saying to Judas, one last time, dip your bread in my cup, Judas, whatever you do, do it quickly. But I want you to know, I'm offering you kinsman redeemer protection. just take that with you, Judas, to do what you need to do. I love you. And he said, the reason that this bunch of. Semitic men didn't do anything is they're so shocked. What? Judas is the favored one. Judas is the one that he's offering the special bond with. What? Why not me? And so they're kinda stunned. And so they miss what's happening because they're reflecting on one last gesture of Jesus to Judas, not of condemnation, but Judas. I offer you kinsman redeemer covering. I know what you're gonna do. And the beauty of that is, you know, Jesus is saying, I know what you've done. I know what you're gonna do. I love you anyway. And that's the preciousness of communion, right? When we take that cup and that bread, Jesus is telling me, I know what you've done. I know what you're gonna do. You're gonna betray me again. I love you anyway, and my blood is over you and covering you. So again, if we are not interacting with Saudis or Omanis. we just miss so much richness. I'm not saying his ex to Jesus was perfectly right, you know, you could debate it, but I'm just saying there's beautiful things that other cultures bring out of the text and the character of God for us.

Matt: 36:32

Yes and actually that's a challenge to us again as Westerners who might think we're coming in or perhaps Koreans or Filipinos thinking oh yeah we've had the church for decades and we are coming as teachers actually that is not our role necessarily We dare to invite people into the word of God and to ask the questions or to get them to ask questions of the text and of the Lord by his spirit and by his word to grow and learn and we're not there to teach them every answer yeah some of those Bible studies where you're just asking questions what's hard about this What's Difficult about this You know what do you love about this we learn as much as they're learning cause they things than we do So Dick what about we've mentioned suffering Taking it back into your own experiences bring us forwards in your story if you want When you went out of Sudan were there challenges for those early believers Were there people coming to Christ in cartoon in those days who faced a lot of opposition

Dick Brogden: 37:25

Yeah, there were. and I'm a big believer in proclaiming early and often, and I resist the logic of we're here to share the gospel, but if we share the gospel, we'll get kicked out. So let's not share the gospel so we can stay in the country. To do what? You know, so there's an inverted logic there that's problematic. So from the beginning we need to find out a way how to share Jesus appropriately, respectfully, contextually, but that's who we are. And there is gonna be a reaction to that, right? That's scripturally true. That's historically true. When people come to faith, there is gonna be family rejection. There's going to be societal problems, or even at some levels be government things. However, it's hardly ever the president that kicks you outta the country. It's some mid-level bureaucrat. And so what helps with longevity is three things. One of them, we've already mentioned God's sovereignty and so we're bulletproof until our time, you know, I'm not talking about foolishness, but if we are wise, God will overrule any other attempt. And, we've seen that happen. So God's sovereignty. But secondly is relationship of people with influence. So about five years in there's a hospital in Derman catchment area of about 3 million people. And we were able to get a million dollars worth of donated medical equipment to do a pediatric ICU. And when I was in discussion with the chief cardiologist who said, Hey, we'd like to do this, but we wanna do it in the name of Jesus, and if we do it, I want this to be announced on public TV and I want to be able to tell people he did it in the name of Jesus. So he agreed and we had national broadcasting there, and I'm in the JBI and I'm speaking in Arabic, and I just tell the gospel and why we're giving the medical equipment. Later on we got kicked out of Sudan. And a big file on our work with reaching Muslims. That cardiologist had become the Minister of Health. went to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, brought the file from the hospital. He said, Hey, you can't kick these people out. Just in this year alone, we've had 800 babies whose lives were saved through this ICU unit. Four days later, our expulsion orders removed. We were blacklisted at the airport. We'd been marched to the airport and sent to the UAE. They fly us back in. We had 10 more years in the country, and that's where we saw the most fruit. Right? But it was that person of influence that was able to go about for us. And then the third thing, so sovereignty, influential people. And then the third thing is your perceived good versus your perceived bad in the eyes of the community. And what I mean by that, and I'll just kind of merge some scenarios, and these are all true, but you know, different pieces. dad in our neighborhood finds a bible. under the pillow of his daughter, She's in university. So he goes to the local mid-level bureaucrat, the sheikh the elder, and says, Hey, these people are bad. They're missionaries, they're converting my daughter, they're corrupting her mind. I found this bible if that. Shake has nothing to counter the problem you're done. But if he can say, oh man, that's a problem. I don't like that. But here, take a drink of this water that's from the well they put in down in the middle of the village and my wife and yours are at the exercise class that his wife is running. When they come back from that class, let's talk with them about it too. And you know, your nephew and my son, they work at the English Center that these guys have built. So if we do kick'em out, you know, our family lose their job. So we need to think through this. I'm not saying it overrules anything, but if you've offered nothing to the community, that's an easy decision for the mid-level bureaucrat. You're gone. But if there's all this benefit added, they're gonna at least like, Hmm, we don't like the proclamation, which should never be hid, but we sure like they love us and how they love our families, so let's let'em stay so that's kind of natural to the progression, but ultimate. It's the local people who suffer. you go through your, normal life, right? And God is sovereign and you're adding benefit to community and you're having little problems, whereas people are discovered in their faith or share their faith, et cetera. And then there comes your more seismic events where, believers are imprisoned or some have been martyred. for example, In Libya, three years ago, there was a gathering of believers, and this was a multi partnership effort from different orgs. And there's about 40 gathered at a Christmas season. And shortly after that the believers and some of them missionaries were arrested. And that's been over two years now, and seven of them are still in prison. One of them was our Pakistani colleague, so the Americans, you know, a few days And then diplomatic pressure and they were out. But these local believers and your global south believers, they are still in and still under duress. And that's much, longer of a process or in Jordan recently, last couple years, there's been some fruit, but there's also been martyrdoms and there's been extended beatings And sufferings. And so you have to process through that. Those you share the gospel with are gonna suffer more than you in most cases. And our guys in Libya went and go through a bit of like survivor's guilt that blue passport got me out. But people that we invited into this ministry are suffering and separated from their families and under duress. And same has been true for our workers in Jordan because while there's been some death threats to them, it has been mostly just intimidation. But brothers and sisters that they love have been severely beaten and one case killed. So from the global north, you have to work through that. Jesus is worthy of other people suffering pain because of your involvement. In the message. and if you, don't process that well, it can be quite crippling and you can, make decisions that are actually counter to the gospel. to me, the way you navigate that is not your experience or the experience of the one who's suffering, but the worth of Jesus. I think our Christology has to be so robust in this, that Jesus is worth this and eternal life is the grand prize. And so. Glory always follows suffering in the scriptures. And you have to be very sound in that. And you have to work through, the costs will be born by others for the message that you bring. And when you're from the global south as a missionary, you, also have to work through, well, our Americans, you know, they might be bold and wild, but we'll be the ones that are stuck in prison long after the Americans are released. And that has its own baggage that you have to process through if you're from global South And you don't have the, diplomatic recourse that some from the global North have. So I think early on we had to wrestle with that ourselves because I'm an evangelist. I'm bold, I like risk. I push the envelope and I've had to be corrected and I've had to be matured by others telling me, fine for you, Dick. But what happens when you're gone and we're picking up the pieces? From your boldness. Right? And how do you temper that without losing that apostolic calling that the Lord has on our life? this is art, not science. And this is why the counseling role of the Holy Spirit is so critical to us because you can fall off that bicycle in two directions, whether withdrawing or whether being callous and to drive down that ridge really needs the help of the Holy Spirit and it needs also guidance of the community.

Matt: 44:12

I'm so glad you mentioned that as well at the end That's what I was gonna say It goes back to that point of if you're in community With other global south believers with locals and so on then you are more likely to make wiser decisions based on the community rather than just your style yourself your boldness your call of God And I think the same thing applies to the theology of safety how risky am I gonna be even with my own life if we balance that and we look at the different scriptures and different from the community yeah as you say with the Holy Spirit's guidance I think we're more likely to not be judgmental of others for a start And perhaps just be of what we are doing to the community even if it's the right thing to do and just be aware of that and be honoring of them in the process

Dick Brogden: 45:01

You are so right. And fundamentally to missiological perspective, I think is long term. We have to be so aware of long term effect and whether that's giving money or whether that is your continuum of boldness or whatever it is. we tend to think, quite immediate short-term returns, but we always have to be thinking long-term good and calibrate our decisions for the long-term. Good. Yeah.

Matt: 45:24

Good So yeah let's get back to the sort of arc of your story you had How many years was it in Khartoum and then what did like beyond Sudan I

Dick Brogden: 45:34

Yeah, so 15 years. And, things were going well in Sudan. On the business profile we always like things that give us renewable. Clientele. We don't want to be sitting behind a computer terminal all day. We wanna be talking to people all day. And as you're sharing, you know, you're sowing seed, but it's the minority that responds. So if you only have four friends and you've shared with them and they're not interested, then what do you do? So things like language centers or tourist companies or consultancies or gyms that you're always meeting new people. Those are kind of the bams we navigate to. So we started an English education center and in cartoon it grew. It was at 1200 students a day. We would start with classes and then we'd do conversation groups, and then we'd do offsite, book clubs and then that would lead to bible studies, you know, so we had this progression. So we've seen that start house churches. We franchised that we had 10 other cities because it did so well that we developed locations. My wife started a lady center, and this is exercise, this is nutrition, this is libraries, this is childcare, this is party events, you know, and so we had that going. Islamic education. We didn't want our kids, getting that ideology. And so we started our own school when my first born son was three, and added that. So we had international school, we could scholarship mbbs. We had, this price tag for government officials. And so things were going really well from the business side. We were profiting almost a half million dollars a year. And in expanding across the country, we had house churches going, we'd started a bible school, we'd started an international church. The team had grown to 40, we made it into four teams. So everything was going really good. Not saying it was perfect, but the better things went. My point. our gifting, the more uncomfortable we got because we're starters, And we needed other people to come in and take it from there. So then, anyway, we were praying about going to Libya and I remember I was up in Benghazi and there's an Egyptian colleague who was in prison'cause they found some bibles in his widows, a little traumatized. I'm sitting in a park and guns are going off. It was in the revolution and bombs are exploding and this lady's crying and her kids are running around, we're trying to figure out what to do about her husband. I thought we got the best job in the world. This is awesome. out of that I got called into an organizational meeting and they said. This Arab Spring was unfolding at the time, and we had been caught back in 89, kind of unready when the iron curtain fell, and then Jehovah's Witnesses went in and the alcohol guys went in and the pornographers went in and whatever, and we were kind of on the back foot. So my boss said, what are we gonna do thinking for it? And so, visionary pipe up, I said, Hey, we need to have a church planning team amongst every people group. In the Arab world, we don't have that. So we need, to have at least a foundation anchor team in every country. In the Arab world, we don't have that. we need to start something in Cairo, Egypt, that trains people. So we can kind of step by step, get down to all of this. And you know how these things go. They're like, great. Good idea, Dick, you do it. We're like, oh shoot. But anyway, we felt the Lord was in that. So we went to Egypt and were there seven years and started a training center. And by God's grace, now we have people in every country in the Arab world, and now we're drilling down into the unengaged in these countries. And then after seven years doing that same problem, things were going good. We're getting people everywhere. And I'm looking at Saudi from my org and this is be about 2017 by now, and I'm looking through the Rolodex of young workers. We're training and people are going here, there, and everywhere, but there wasn't anybody in the pipeline for Saudi. So I, I walk down to the kitchen, I say, Hey, Jen. What do you think about us going to Saudi? She rolled her eyes because I have the wonder loss of A TCK. And when we visited Iraq, I'm like, let's move to Iraq. And when we go to Yemen, I'm like, let's move to Yemen. And wherever I go, I'm Jen, let's move here. she gives me two weeks and I'm onto something else, right? So she rolls her eyes. I go back to my office and I'm like, if I do go to Saudi, what would I do? And I said, I wanna learn the local dialect. I'm gonna spend a lot of time with local people. I wanna make disciples and plan a house, church. What do I not want to do? I began to list, I don't wanna fill out this form, I don't wanna go to this conference. I don't want to be on this zoom call. and all those things were what I was now asking our field workers to do. And I didn't wanna do what I'm asking other people to do, if I would be on the other receiving end of it. And I thought, oh my Lord, I forgot what it's like to be on the front lines. Just seven years of, training and leadership. I forgot what day to day feels like. then I went back to Jen. We prayed about it and stepped down from those roles and went to Saudi for four years. and that was during the COVID years. And Saudis are consumers they couldn't shop, they couldn't travel. they went online and they consumed media. And we saw it wasn't just us, it was across the board. We saw more people saved and baptized and house church formed in those four years in Jetta, it was the most fruitful personally. I mean, we'd seen adjunct and, second generation things through others, but far as Jennifer and I, leading people to the Lord, discipling them, baptizing them, seeing church formation, most fruitful years of our ministry, huge. Shout out to other orgs because we received context through the media. Process, you know, very few of those we actually found, but we were the face-to-face and the media guys found him for us. And so shout out to God's team there. and then leadership caught up with me again and began to expand live dead across the world. I couldn't bring leaders into Saudi. So after four years we moved to the UAE and now we're moving actually back to Egypt in a couple months. So things have grown and unfolded and super excited. I don't think there's ever been a better time to be active in the Muslim world and not just the Muslim world, amongst the world of the unengaged. In the unreached, When I look back at the eras of mission and you look back to the coastlines with William Carey and then the internal stuff with Taylor, you know, China Inland Mission, Sudan, inland Mission. And then you get into this last a hundred years, Townsend with language, McGovern, homogeneous principle, winter Hidden Peoples, the unreached. And there's been this focus Thena the last hundred years. all of that's been wonderful. But we're in a fourth era that has a resource that those other three eras did not have. And what that is, is the resources in the harvest, the local believers in these different countries. So for example, Pakistan has almost 50 unengaged and almost 700 people groups, whatever. But there are Pakistani believers, there are Pakistani churches, building on what all those have done before us. We have resources in the harvest. We have partnership possibilities in the harvest that have never ever been seen in God's redemption history. I am so excited about the future and missions. I am so excited about the rise of the global south. I'm so excited about the birthing of these indigenous churches, the Lord will do his work, but it has never been more possible for us to work together for global evangelism. this is the most exciting era I think in missions history. And I think where we get confused sometimes is when we mix up calling assignment and role. someone would say, I am called to Yemen, and then they get kicked out of Yemen and they get all discombobulated. I thought, God called me to Yemen. What happened? What do I do now? Maybe I need to go back to the uk, as opposed to we, the Body of Christ share a broad calling together we are called to Jesus and we're called to glory amongst all the nations. That transcends your age and your geography and your nationality. Now we all have different assignments. So for example, let me personalize it. I believe I'm called to Jesus and His glory amongst all nations. I've lived in six different countries. Those have been my assignments. I've served in a bunch of different roles. within Sudan, I started my role as a language student, and then I did this, and then I did that. I had different roles in Sudan, so within my assignment there was variety, and then I moved to Egypt and I had different roles in that assignment, but my calling has never wavered. So I think for those in their home context, we should say. Come to terms with this kind of biblical narrative. We are called that disciples need to be made of every nation for the glory of Jesus. That's our calling and we're called to him in order to together, do that. Now your assignment might be the UK or America or Kenya or whatever, but our calling doesn't change. then your role within that, because as I've mentioned, I've seen some attrition when people latched onto their assignment and misunderstood it as their calling. And when that assignment was taken away from them, then it rocked them and then we say, okay, so you can't be an Oman anymore. No problem. But you weren't called to Oman, you were called to Jesus and his glory amongst all the nations. So think about the UAE, rather than go home, it's all over. And that same thing can apply. Alright? You're in Manchester. Wonderful. Yeah. But your calling is Jesus and his glory in all the nations. Your assignments, Manchester and your role can come and go. So calling assignment role I find very helpful in this big picture discussion.

Matt: 54:10

Brilliant Yeah that's so helpful That definitely helped us when we were kicked out of Pakistan cause I've always said yeah first our calling us to Jesus and we have to hold the geography lightly because we don't know where we'll end up even looking into history many of the missionaries had to do and dog legs and things they didn't expect and shifted countries and places But we care for those who are lost for those who dunno Jesus And for some of us it's this particular call to Muslims but Muslims are everywhere We can still here and if God gives us the grace to be able to do that in unreached places then wonderful Oh it's been such a pleasure having you on I

Dick Brogden: 54:46

Yeah.

Matt: 54:47

at the beginning let's talk lots of stories We don't need to go too much into me theology but I feel we've done a really good mixture of everything we've talked theological issues and interesting situations and scenarios theology but all embedded with some great stories So thank you It's been a joy and yeah I appreciate all God is doing through you and your organization and we pray a blessing on you guys and so good to be in partnership and in fellowship with you

Dick Brogden: 55:11

It's been a delight.

Matt: 55:13

Great All the best Bye

55:16

Do get in touch. As usual, if you want to share how God is speaking to you through the podcast or if you want to partner with us in raising up more workers for the harvest, you can email me personally, matt@frontiers.org.uk and here's a challenging quote to end with by Dick himself. We have made Christmas about coming home and being comfortable. But Jesus's approach to Christmas was to leave home and be uncomfortable. Have a great week and do join us next time to hear from more ordinary people serving our extraordinary God in some of the toughest parts of the world.