Faith & Friendship, Grief & Glory

In this episode Matt talks with an old friend and mentor, Dr. Tim Green. 

Tim and his family lived in Pakistan, Jordan, the UK and South East Asia for many decades. He is a trainer, an educator, a writer and friend of many Muslims who have come to Christ in many different contexts. He's particularly interested in the global church listening to and learning from the voices and experiences of believers from a Muslim background. 

What happened when terrorists attacked the school in Pakistan that Tim and Rachel's children attended? How should one respond when an African student of a fundamentalist Islamic madrassa in your city (where the students have had weapons training in Afghanistan) asks you for a bible? 

These are just a few of the stories that Tim shares with us.

To access the brilliant courses and resources that Tim has authored or helped to create, visit: https://word.org.uk/

Come, Follow Me is the discipleship course particularly for believers from a Muslim background. Joining the Family is to help churches to understand and to welcome Muslim-background Christ followers into fellowship. 

Transcript

Tim 0:02

You know, when you go through crises, God is good. I remember about the same time, we were held up at gunpoint in our home. And that was scary, but God carried us through there. That same summer, an interservice colleague was drowned in a lake, a close friend of ours, while trying to rescue some other children. So you hit these times, unexpectedly. And then there's other sort of ongoing issues like illness and stuff, which can nag away in a more chronic way, but God is with you. That's what you learn.

0:33

Hi guys. Welcome back to Raw Mission, the podcast where we hear from ordinary men and women who've heard the call and ab obey the command. Often with much fear and trembling to take the good news of Jesus to the ends of the earth. I am Matt, your host, and today's special guest is Dr. Tim Green. Tim and his family have spent decades working in Muslim contexts and cultures in several, quite different countries. He has a deep interest in hearing the voices of, and thus learning from Muslims who have come to Christ. He's also the author of some excellent courses and resources for the church in this area. In this episode, he'll not only be sharing his stories, but also the fascinating stories of various friends he's made along the way. Friends like Sharif from Pakistan, Hussein from Afghanistan, Khalida in the uk, and Joshua from Uganda.

Matt 1:20

Hi, Tim. Welcome to the show. It's so good to have you on and be back face to face with you. It's been many, many years since we've known each other, but yeah, let's go back. Tell us about your early years growing up in the UK and how you got called into work amongst Muslims.

Tim 1:33

Yeah. Well, great to be with you again, Matt. And think back to our many interactions over the. I grew up in a believing Christian home, which was great. So I knew the Lord's love since I was tiny. Of course, that had to turn into my own personal commitment at different stages of childhood and teenager. and that happened for me in a relatively smooth way. So by the time I was turning 18 in my last year at high school, I was looking for a place serve overseas in the eight months gap that I had before going to university. I ended up doing that in a church in Lahore in Pakistan, Most of my time there was serving with the church congregation, but I did meet one or two believers of Muslim backgrounds, who in those days were very few and far between. That was 1979, so I'm talking about 47 years ago, and I vividly remember one man. Called Sharif. I think he was in his fifties, so he was perhaps nearly three times my age. And on the face of it, we shouldn't have been compatible friends. But he befriended me with hospitality, encouragement, generous, kindness. And I befriended him because he had lost his home, his family, and his job. When he turned to Christ, he'd ended up living in the vicinity of the church, but not being welcomed or accepted really by the church community. So he was really a no man's land stuck between two communities. So we were friends to each other and that thing has stuck with me and all through these years and decades since then, my life had been so greatly enriched by having friends who are Christ followers, who've come from Islam. I've learned so much from them. when you look at the numbers of Muslim, so to Christ around the world now, compared with 47 years ago, it's massively grown. What a privilege.

Matt 3:13

Yeah, that's right. I often say I remember being at university and reading books about one or two people, their whole life story, you know, you remember well Hanes and to call him father, and now we're reading books where hundreds and thousands are coming to Christ from a Muslim background. And so encouraging, isn't it? but for you, that started in Pakistan in the city, learning what the local church was like there, the existing Christian community, but also making friends with believers from a Muslim background. And that's definitely been a pattern of your life and we'll come on to more of that. But yeah, take us to your university years back in the uk.

Tim 3:47

Okay, so I started on a course doing science chemistry was my major and. I was learning a lot by getting involved in, leadership in student led Christian groups. But also every week I would attend a prayer group where we prayed for different Islamic nations and week by week this got under my skin as we prayed for countries where at that time there was literally a tiny handful of known believers. I'm talking about places like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan, and we prayed in faith, believing that God will work and just look at what he's done in that time. Astonishing. So I agree with you. The numbers are remarkable and I think this has a couple of implications. One is that we live in a very privileged aged, you know, 1400 years of Islam. We've never seen anything like this, but with that comes a great responsibility. And it's not just a responsibility to keep reaching out, knowing that the Lord is working. mission is seeing what God is doing and joining in. So, It's a time of harvest. and we need lots and lots of people serving in that harvest field. But it's not just about the evangelism, it's about taking care of the harvest. And I think that's the side that has been, somewhat neglected. because the aim is not just to count the number of people getting baptized. This is a long term task. and we mustn't be naive or complacent given that many of those people that we see coming to faith, don't necessarily press on to maturity and, ministry. Now, very few I think actually go back to Islam in any committed, convinced sense. but quite a lot. scarily large numbers I would say, although we lack accurate statistics, end up in a place where, there's still followers of Jesus in their heart, but they haven't actually grown, hasn't shown self, in a transformed life they're not active in a local, community of Christ followers. And that's tragic. So a real need to, attend to, people walking this long lonely, journey of finding their identity. we celebrate people coming from Islam to Christ, but actually it's about Islam to Christ to a settled identity. And that's a journey that takes decades. And so I've given my life to serving in that space.

Matt 5:52

Yeah. That's so important, isn't it? And we sometimes. Bemoan the extraction model, whether it's intended or unintended, and it might be self extraction. but like you say, when somebody's comes outta their community but doesn't really fit into any Christian community or fellowship, whether it's other believers from a Muslim background or the existing national church, then they can just be in, no man's land. and that is a tragedy. We want to see kingdom impact in the villages and families and communities that they came from, as well as whole nations.

Tim 6:21

well indeed and, and part of the problem is our individualistic way of looking at, salvation and the Christian life. we present the salvation decision as something that somebody decides on their own before the Lord. actually part of it is come and join Christ's community. If you're not actually willing in some way to join with other followers of Christ, you're not gonna survive. hardly any point even starting. and the shape of that community of course, varies. It doesn't mean you have to come straight out and join, in a very visible way. Usually in the early years, it's, a tentative thing where people, don't show themselves fully as Christians to their, Muslim families until they've, got strong enough to do so, or until they're exposed unintentionally. but in that time they absolutely need to be, meeting with, fellow believers who can encourage them and also find, space. To help them to start expressing theirselves in, safe ways. And then gradually the circle, grows of people that they're, able to expose themselves to. And, the community is vital, whether, as you say, it's with others from, Muslim background or people from the traditional Christian community, or a mix of the same, that doesn't matter so much. It's not about, where people stand in this range of options. it's about the principle of being committed to the body of Christ.

Matt 7:39

So good. and that partnership, friendship, bridge people, the role of the outsider, the role of the nationals, and the role of the emerging Muslim background, believers is so key. And I know a big part of everything that you do. So going back to your own story, you studied at university, you started praying for Muslims around the world, and we talked about just how exciting it's been over these decades to see the impact of so many people praying for Muslims more than ever, probably, and working among Muslims and serving Muslims. But yeah. What happened next? how did your long term calling develop?

Tim 8:12

Well, towards the end of my time at university, I was sure that the Lord was calling me long term to serve in the Muslim world. I didn't know where in the Muslim world. I didn't know how, I didn't know that I needed some work experience in the UK first, in an ordinary working environment to get rooted in that way. And that was such an important time. I worked for, nearly four years in a textile factory as a junior manager. and the. Company that employed me, decided to place me in a town, with 20,000 Muslims and of course, we grow in, finding our calling as we get on with the opportunities in hand, on spot. so that's what happened for me. within the factory environment and then visiting those people's homes, at work, outside of that, working time, and also, learning or do, in the evening classes and, visiting local mosques and living in a Pakistani neighborhood. it all helped focus my calling over the next, two years or so. I would say that I had to do quite a bit of that on my own. I, would read I would reflect on what I was learning, but it really would've helped me if I'd been in some sort of a cohort of other people at the same stage of life. much later on, my wife and I have helped to nurture such cohorts of people that are at a similar stage. typically in their early to mid twenties, exploring a call to mission, not quite yet ready to go, but wanting to move forward and to learn from each other. at the end of that time, I knew that law was going me to Pakistan. I was preparing to go to all nations, Christian College, and to go with a mission agency called Interserve. just at that point, I met a girl. Who was called to Pakistan and planning to go to All Nations Christian College and then, to go with a mission agency called Interserve. we were highly compatible. we fell in love pretty quickly. we got married, she's called Rachel. She's fantastic. We just celebrated 40 years of marriage. we went soon afterwards to All Nations College and soon after that with a three month old baby. We arrived in Pakistan in 1988, still in our twenties. and I'm so glad that the Lord kept us moving quite quickly, so that we could reach the mission field at a place where we weren't experts, we weren't teachers. we were there in apprenticeship mode to learn. and over the following few years, we learned a lot on the job, as much as anything through Pakistani, people we were mixing with. and, you know, you can pick up bits of further education along the way. So instead of doing a master's. before we went, we took a year out, after being nine years, on the field, I did a master's in Islamic Societies and then we headed back to the mission field. So there are so many opportunities in this, day and age for lifelong learning. And therefore, I think, where possible, it's good not to spend years and years and years in preparation, but to get out, relatively early, learn on the job, fill in the gaps as you go along. And certainly for Rachel and myself, those early years in Pakistan were very enriching. most of our cultural orientation came not from expatriates, but from Pakistanis. So we were living, downstairs from the landlord's family. He was Muslim with 10 children. The kids loved to interact with our baby at first, and then our other two children as they came along. we got three altogether. and we would just spend a lot of time there and just learn a lot about focus line, for instance, just from seeing what they were involved with. Likewise for myself I was serving in a Pakistani organization. equipping, Christians throughout Pakistan to grow in their faith. Through local learning groups, through the churches to get confident in their identity, which is a key part of their being able to witness to the Muslim majority. and the person in charge at that time was a, former Muslim named Risma. He's passed away now. but I learned so much from him and he would mentor me both in my du language as I was trying it out, and in understanding about, Muslim background believers in Pakistan. He would gently correct me where I was making cultural mistakes and I just learned on the job. And again, the friendship of a Muslim background believe like him was just so enriching for me.

Matt 12:08

we should talk about Lahore a little bit, the city where if you haven't seen it, according to Punjabis who lived there, you've never been born. So Obviously you lived there years and years and years, probably 15 years altogether perhaps. But describe Lahore to someone who has never been to Pakistan or.

Tim 12:24

Oh, well, Lahore, when you're on the streets, it's delightful chaos. it's loud. There's traffic everywhere. vehicles coming from all directions in those days. those vehicles included a lot of, donkey carts and, horse drawn vehicles and, motorbikes, dodging in and out the traffic. I loved riding a motorbike. Actually, that was one of my. Favorite experience.

Matt 12:44

Yeah, that's one of my memories of you. riding on your motorbike with kids propped up around you.

Tim 12:48

Yes. Yeah, we'd do that. And then you'd have cars and trucks, all jostling for space, blaring horns, the sights, the smells, the sounds it's very vibrant city. It's got an ancient, historical center. It really was one of the key cities in the mogul empire. So there's still, buildings, from that period, but it's expanded greatly under the British period, in the 19th century and then much, much more in the 20th and 21st century. So it's quite a metropolis now. and just a really fun place to bring up our kids.

Matt 13:18

Definitely. it's a wild city for sure. hardly ever sleeps, does it? Lots of, yeah. Tape ball, cricket at night and people in the parks having picnics and. All kinds of people there,

Tim 13:28

fantastic food and such a friendly place.

Matt 13:31

yeah, that's a surprise perhaps for some people. I mean, I went there as a single guy and later when I had a family, we were already way up in the mountains. But, Why would you say it's a family friendly place?

Tim 13:42

Well, people are just used to having kids around, and part of it's because of the extended family system. So in the West, at least in Britain, we have this weird system where, a new couple trying to raise a little baby, you're on their own. grandparents might or might not be nearby, but, the rest of the extended family probably isn't. and you know, if one partner goes back to work, the other is left quite isolated, rearing small children as hard work. Whereas in Pakistan with extended family system where the married brothers live together and their wives and the grandmother and everything, it brings, it stresses and strains as well. But it provides a readymade community of people that will help out. having said that, you know, there is the darker side of life in Pakistan. extremism was growing during the years we were there. and then after nine 11, which was a huge shock in the USA, and then shock and, you know, awe and revenge was rising up. So attack coming on Afghanistan and then Pakistani Muslim seeking out western targets and revenge for that. There was this tit for tat thing growing with a number of attacks on westerners in 2002 that included, The attack on our, children's, school By that time they were at a boarding school in the north of Pakistan, Christian boarding school. And, one day suddenly, terrorists burst in and killed most of the guards. The others ran away and then went through the school seeking people to massacre. It's astonishing, really, that none of the children were killed that day. They were, hiding under their desks while there was gunfire going on outside. we heard of it and, rushed to see what was happening. It quite a, tough time, for all the families involved. the school had to close down for a bit and, relocate to Thailand. So our children older two moved To Thailand to continue their education there, for a year. and then later on the school came back and got restarted in Pakistan. But by that time, our kids were ready to move to boarding school in England while we moved to Jordan. So, we had quite a lot of disruption in those days and, I have known the fear of, walking the streets wondering if I would be targeted. I never had that up until 2002. It was a development, a direct outcome really of, nine 11 and all that followed on from it. But, extremism has grown in Pakistan and many lives continue to be lost every year as a result of it.

Matt 15:56

Yeah, this is where our story overlapped a little bit as well, because those were my early years in Pakistan. 2002, was when I arrived. And yeah, living up in Murray, learning language, and being around while that school attack happened and so on. I mean, I was actually outta the country that very day, but came back again the next day and, yeah, hung out with some of your kids probably as they tried to figure out, as you as parents, tried to figure out what to do. And, and I've shared that story from my perspective on, the first episode of Raw Mission. but yeah, it was a very tough time for all the workers out there, wasn't it?

Tim 16:28

It was, but God is good. You know, when you go through crises, God is good. I remember about the same time, we were held up at gunpoint in our home. And that was scary, but God carried us through there. That same summer, an interservice colleague was drowned in a lake, a close friend of ours, while trying to rescue some other children. So you hit these times, unexpectedly. And then there's other sort of ongoing issues like illness and stuff, which can nag away in a more chronic way, but God is with you. That's what you learn.

Matt 16:59

that's right. it's a strange mixture, isn't it? I remember walking into the school after the terrorist attack and just so much sadness, but so many miracles at the same time. And the sense of the presence of God is not something I experienced. I'm not one of those very sensory people, but there was a tangible feeling of God's presence and protection there at the school And of course there were stories of angels singing and various things that came out of that day.

Tim 17:24

Yes. and forward many years. we lost our grandson unexpectedly two years ago. and that's probably the toughest thing that's happened to us, on a level with the attack on our kids' school. so that was, deeply hard relief for us and even more so for our son and his, wife and their daughter at the time. And, our grandson was, nearly three years old, when he died suddenly in his sleep. but we have seen God holding us as a family in that time, and I remember we rushed back to be with them as soon as we heard the news and they've got on the wall, in their house. this verse from Isaiah, when you go through the waters, I will be with you. and you don't find the answers. And actually if you know that God is with you, you don't always need to find the answers, when you walk through the tough times.

Matt 18:14

yeah, I remember a few years ago hearing and just, what a tough time for your family. And of course, all of us, all our listeners will have things that have happened in their lives that they just struggle with and wrestle with God in. But yeah, thanks for sharing Some of those tough moments of your story too. Yeah. Tell us some more about some of your interactions with believers from a Muslim background in Pakistan and the things perhaps that we can learn from them.

Tim 18:39

Well, during the 15 years we were there, it was a joy to get to know a number of them. I remember a number of single young men that were my sort of age. And, I was married by then, of course. And for them, finding marriage partners if they decide to follow Jesus isn't easy. because normally they're Muslim families would do that. And indeed, in many cases, that's what Muslim parents do. If they find that their, wayward, child, is leaving the faith, the first thing you do is try and find a marriage partner to bring them back into Islam. And indeed that happens sometimes. but those that resist that, how are they gonna find marriage partners? So anyway, I walked with some of these people, and then there were others that were already married before they came to faith, and then you could see the different outcomes that happened. Sometimes the wife also choose to follow Jesus after some time, and then you can get a strong, family unit that can rear their kids in the faith. sometimes that doesn't happen. I think of one friend who came to faith 31 years ago, and still his wife hasn't. So he's still hanging onto his faith, but, it's so hard for him knowing that his other family members haven't and that he won't be able to nurture a new family line in Christ. because it'll, you know, humanly speaking, finish with him when he passes away. and then there was someone else, I remember who Got cancer, in his middle age, much earlier than one would expect. And it was tragic because he was leading the little group of believers in the who at that time coming from Islam as he had. but anyway, the Lord chose not to heal him and he was in his last days, my last visit to him. he was very weak by then but he said to me, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him. You know those words from Corinthians. And I thought, wow, this guy's amazing. and so soon after that, he did pass into the presence of his Lord. So, I've seen these believers, at different stages and ages and later on I decided to do my PhD interviewing 32 of them in on their issues of identity and how those unfolded over the years and decades. following their, conversion to Christ. so yeah, that's was an important part of, my time in Pakistan.

Matt 21:37

Let's talk about our friend, our mutual friend Joshua, who I met at college years later. But you met as, a younger man living in Pakistan.

Tim 21:45

yeah, that's right. So he wasn't actually Pakistani. He had come from Uganda, black African. His father was, a leader in, some Islamic movement in Uganda and had sent to Pakistan for a good Islamic education at, these, colleges, specifically for equipping, people to become imams. So he was studying there and just one time I was walking past the post office, and he was sitting on a wall and we just said, hi. And then he said, can you gimme a bible? And I said, well, that's interesting. And I said, who are you? and he told me his real name, which isn't Joshua. and I said, what are you doing? And he said, well, I'm studying to becoming a mom and a madrasa. And I thought, goodness, if I give him a Bible, I'm in deep trouble. I could get thrown outta the country. So I said, okay, well, I'll see what I can do. and then I just left it. and probably it was, might be in a few weeks, but the Lord bugged me on it. He kept bugging me on it and he said, Tim, you've gotta take the risk and get that Bible to Joshua. so I did that. and then the friendship developed and Joshua chose to follow Jesus. so it was genuine, he wasn't a spy. and I think, it was so important that I had. Being willing to listen to the Lord's voice on that, even though I was slow and reluctant. and I'm not an evangelist. I've discovered that over the years. you know, I try and, witness to Muslim people of course, but it's not my gift and I don't normally see much fruit of it. But the times that I have seen fruit have been when the Lord has prompted and nudged me in a certain specific way. And I'll mention another example later on. so anyway, of course the thing doesn't end with Joshua coming to faith. He's still a secret believer. He is still inside of Madrassa. His life could be in danger. how to help him grow, how to help him, move out from there. how to help him. prepare for baptism. Get introduced to local Christian community. find his feet, get some money and then prepare for his future, whatever that might be. so I and my family walk closely with him in those years and, he would come round to our home and, we did have other international students in my home actually that were from African Christian backgrounds. he came to at least three holidays with us at different times. And, it's funny, letting people into your family life, you don't think you're discipling them. It actually very much is part of discipleship. it's what you're modeling unawares really despite being, frail and, we all make mistakes and they can see us up close but Joshua eventually, got to, leave Pakistan briefly visited his family in, Uganda. His father said, you're no longer my son. Get out of my life. That was the hardest thing Josh had ever heard up to that time.

Matt 24:20

I remember his sisters threw stones at him and yeah, it was very traumatic for him. And it went through a horrible couple of months after that.

Tim 24:27

Yeah. eventually, I he arrived at All Nations College where you met him. So what was your memory of him there?

Matt 24:34

I mean, just a wonderful brother, so gentle. And, I did a full three hour interview with him to hear his whole story, but he tells of those days in Pakistan meeting you, and he'd even been not just learning all about Islamic theology, but he'd been off into Afghanistan. He did months of, weapons training there, firing rocket launches, learning how to disassemble and assemble guns and all of that stuff as well. So he was in a pretty hardcore Islamic university. It wasn't your average one. but he tells the story of when you came to find him in his room. That first time I remember it was scary. Yeah. You must have been petrified because all you did was say, let's pray. And you prayed and then you said, okay, I need to go now. And you left. I think he said the first few times all you did was pray and he didn't even think it was praying. It was just you talking and then you left. And he thought, this is a very weird guy. And he, has no idea why he asked you for that Bible, why he just kept feeling prompted to pursue Jesus. But yeah, wonderful guy and such a gentle spirit and obviously went through such a tough time being kicked out of his own family, which was a surprise to him. He thought, I'm the beloved son. I'm, being trained to be the next Islamic leader here in this particular city in Uganda. And maybe, beyond that. he really thought they would accept him despite turning to Jesus, but they didn't at all. So, yeah, amazing story and a lovely guy and he's done so much ministry around the world and yeah. Very cool that we have that little connection.

Tim 25:54

Yes, indeed. Yeah.

Matt 25:55

good. Well let's move forwards, because you spent many, many years there in Pakistan serving the church, working in theological education, Working with international students. So many stories I'm sure. But you then moved to Jordan next.

Tim 26:08

Yes, I did. Yeah. And it was a very short notice because we suddenly found that the, police were refusing our permission to stay on in Pakistan, and we hadn't been, officially expelled, but we thought it might happen. So we thought, goodness, the next school year's about to start, our oldest two have gone off to boarding school in the uk. What do we do, the youngest one? Where do we go in the world? and so we were really kind of seeking the Lord on this. but, I remember, one morning, praying and saying to God, where should we go? And I felt the Lord say in one of the very, very few occasions in my life, I've almost felt an audible voice, I felt the Lord say, go to Jordan and work in such and such organization. I said straight back to the God, well, I can't because I can't work under the person that's in charge there. because I knew him and I thought our personalities would completely clash. And the voice came back, said, who are you to say who you'll work with? You go where I send you. I said, oh, yes Lord, I will. and I did. And so we had two wonderful years in Jordan and that person I thought I would clash with. I learned so much from him. and really thank God for that experience. And, It's a country with layers and layers of history. And we learned a lot from, Arab Christians including, Palestinian Arab Christians who themselves or their, parents had lost their homelands, during the, two wars there, in Israel. And so, that really brought home this situation, Anyway, that was a, good time for us as a family. And God has his timing. He kept us in Pakistan for 15 years through many experiences, which could have caused us to leave. And we didn't. and it was long enough for me to train up a wonderful, Pakistani colleague, Dr. Casa Julius, who leads the Open Theological Seminary. I was serving all those years and we'd handed over wondering, okay, how much longer should we stay in Pakistan? Suddenly the Lord removed us. his timing was perfect, and those two years in Jordan were, excellent. we then came back to the UK and had nine years in the UK during which time our three children went through university. and my involvement in this church-based training across, the Middle East and Asia continue to grow. as I was involved in the early years in something called the Increased Association, and also TEE, it's a way of equipping people without sending them off to Bible college. They don't need sponsorship. They don't need to leave their jobs or the homes or the communities. they learn on the job. You can plan and develop learning pathways to help people go from first steps through, certificate, diploma, even up to degree for those that need that. so it's effective is widely used and. Later on, I came back to that, in my work with, I believe it was a Muslim background. Anyway, during those nine years in, uk, we got involved with quite a bit of stuff. one of our supporting churches soon as we came back said, why didn't you, go to this part of Oxford, where there's a lot of Muslims and get involved in reaching out to Muslims there? And I said, well, a, I don't really have evangelistic gifts. and b isn't it much more strategic to help, equip Christians throughout Oxford to reach out in friendship and witness to the Muslim people around them, I met others in Oxford with a similar vision. and we met every Tuesday morning at seven o'clock for an hour. and gradually, this thing came together into something we called maba, which means love in Arabic, and similar in, many Muslim languages. we wanted to emphasize, not, particularly polemics and apologetics, although they have their place, and theology and debates, they all have their place. But we wanted to emphasize equipping and empowering ordinary, Christian people to reach out to ordinary Muslim people.'cause at the end of the day, people are people. and to get disempowered, I think you have to be an expert on Islam before you can say hello to a Muslim that disempowers them. so we were trying to dismantle all of that stuff and say, just say hello. Get to know your Muslim friend. Take it from there, see how God leads. And so that's what Mo Hubbard did. It didn't set up to have full-time workers. Deliberately not it was set up to equip ordinary working people in the churches. And so we got around the churches in Oxford. The prayer thing continued and has continued right through to the present day. God has done wonderful things in answer to that prayer. But alongside of that, you need to, organize some trainings. So. there was an existing book called, friendship First by Steve Bell. So we took that as a basis and we developed a course, called Friendship First, but also, we took a, smaller cohort of those that were really committed and were wanting to explore next steps in mission. And so, along with several mission agencies like Frontiers and into serve. SIM and our World Ministries at that time, we would run this program, not just recruiting for our agency, but helping people find their next step in serving God for the Muslim world by starting where they were reaching out to Muslims in Oxford, and quite a number of people over those years ended up, heading overseas. So that was part of it. Now also, in those Oxford years, I was traveling quite a bit in Asia in connection with the increased association, and one time I was invited to a consultation in Afghanistan. This was in, 2006, where we were looking at what can be done to help Afghan disciple Afghans in this very small emerging church at that time. and, know, there was need for, materials that could be, Relational is you can't make disciples just through reading books. disciples make disciples. But how to help, Afghan believers in themselves might be relatively new in the faith, without much education, without much Bible knowledge. make disciples and help others to grow together. and so, we needed, a course that would be relational because disciples make disciples. It needed to be, rooted in God's word and. Chose one, Peter, because many of the issues for discipleship in Afghan and in the Muslim context relate in some way to that book. it needed to be relevant to the issues, that believers were facing in that context. and, there's a lot of stuff that is needed for discipleship that you wouldn't get by just translating a course from the west. So, teaching about persecution, concepts of marriage, if you've got an Islamic worldview of marriage in your head, folk religion, the five Pillars of Islam, how do you restructure a framework for Christian living? If you've been brought up in a context of Sharia in Islam and indeed even, how do you approach things like prayer and reading the scriptures? If you've been steeped in an Islamic way of thinking or your life. so it needed to be relevant to all of those issues, and in a way that helps old and new worldviews to clash and crunch each other. Because deep level discipleship happens when you get transformation through the renewal of our minds, as it says in Romans 12. Anyway, those were some of the design principles that led to this course called Come Follow Me, that I developed in that time specifically for Afghanistan. later on, more and more people in different Muslim countries asked to translate it for their context. and I said, well, it's not written for your context, but they said actually the worldview issues, are similar, because of the way that, Islamic teaching affects the way people think right around the Muslim world. And so that was growing at that time. but all at the same time, I was having wonderful friendships with, Muslims who were coming to Christ or had come to Christ right there in Oxford from many different, uh, ethnic and national backgrounds. there's one person, an Iranian lady, we'll call her Esther, you just actually interviewed her on a podcast recently. so it was really fun to see her, come to faith in quite a dramatic way. and to grow in the Lord, face her struggles, work things through, and then follow her calling into full-time Christian ministry. So I've learned a lot from people like her. She was actually the first person to translate, come follow me into Fari, because she wanted a tool to help her disciple, other, Iranians. another thing that we developed at that time was of course called joining the family, where we interviewed, quite a number of, Muslim background believers in the UK about their experience of joining British churches. What was good, what was hard, what advice would they give for British Christians. And then we also interviewed some pastors, about their experience of welcoming, these, former Muslims into the family of Christ. so that all got. edited and shaped into a course called Joining the Family, and so, Esther was one person I've just mentioned. She also was helping a church in, Bristol, in the uk, where. A growing number of Iranians. Were joining a British church, many Iranians now around the UK turning to Christ and, joining churches, all forming their own fellowships. and the same now is starting with some Arabs, some Kurds, some Afghans and so on. Not many yet of the indigenous, second and third generation Pakistani Muslim community in this country. although one of those came to faith, I'll call her Kalida, and, been so thrilled to watch her over a 20 year period, grow in her confidence, find a gift as an evangelist, be bold and sacrificial in reaching out. She's seen quite a number come to Christ, both Muslims and others. and she listens to the Lord. She obeys where he sends her. she is his mouthpiece. and she's got initiative tenacity. and I just thank God so much for her. this sister in Christ, right here in the uk. so, being involved with a number of these believers has been a great joy and learned a lot from them.

Matt 35:24

let's fast forward to your time in Southeast Asia where you guys moved as a family, and perhaps you can talk to us about some of the believers from a Muslim background. You met out there, the story of Hussein maybe and others like him.

Tim 35:37

Sure. So, by the time our children had gone through university, my wife and I felt there was a little window of opportunity before our parents got too elderly. so we took that opportunity, we moved to Southeast Asia, thinking it might be five years, ended up being 11. And we're so grateful actually to our, mothers who, now in their nineties have been so supportive of us, being overseas all those years. We just recently moved back to the UK to be with them at this final stage of their lives. but God took us to to Southeast Asia, I had a sense that God was gonna teach us a lot, from his church there and from church leaders there. And wow, did he do that. I've never in my life come to treasure the body of Christ as much as I do now, as a result of those 11 years, our local church had 6,000 people across about eight, congregations, different languages and, some really fine, leaders. so we learned a lot from that. We, again, got involved in international students ministry and, it's been a joy to see that all happen. and it's an interesting country because, although as a majority Muslim, it's not an overwhelming majority as you get in, Pakistan and, Jordan. So, there is a, vibrant, national church alongside but of a very different ethnic background and quite fearful about reaching out to. Muslim people. but we seen people from, Yemen, Iran, and Afghanistan come to Christ. So, let me tell you about one of those, a young man, I'll call him Hussein. he had come to, the country, panelists, and Parentless because both his, parents had been murdered in Afghanistan. he had to survive on his wits, washing dishes and restaurants, quick witted, learn local language, learned Arabic, learn English, all from talking with people. but, he had this bitterness and loneliness in his heart. he met, another, Afghan, who spotted in him a spiritual interest and, asked me to follow up with Hussein. so I, said, okay, let's have him round for a meal. and see if he's got any spiritual interest. and then I was just cycling home that evening from the office halfway back and suddenly I felt a voice say to me, Hussein will come to faith tonight. I said, Lord, it doesn't happen that way. but because God had said it, I was prepared and, indeed saying did come to faith that night and it was genuine. because the Lord had said that, it had alerted me to, the fact that Hussein would be more ready than I thought. and indeed he had been, investigating Christianity quite some time and he was ready to come to faith. anyway, Hussein came to faith, and very soon after we had lockdown with the the COVID pandemic in, early 2020. So he was stuck at his home, couldn't go out to work. I was stuck at my home, couldn't go out to work, but both of us had a smartphone and I found that I could talk with him every day. We chatted together, encouraged each other. Again, it's about friendship. we scripture together, we prayed together. and that continued for months. and what a gift that was COVID for us on that occasion, because he could get discipled in a way that wouldn't have been possible if I was meeting up with him once in a while, face to face. I realized the power of the smartphone because, God's word is in so many languages, so easily available. one of the first things I do, when I'm talking to a Muslim person is point out how they can get the scripture in their own language on the phone. I show them the U version app. and then with believers, I show how you can highlight one verse and turn it into a beautiful little image and picture and then send it to your friend to encourage them. There's all sorts of things you can do on the app. You don't just have to read. You can listen. You can lie in bed listening, you can be while you're traveling, listening to God's word. It's, fantastic. And that's just the Bible bit. And then there's all these websites and other things now in so many languages. So I think for all workers now using the smartphone. for evangelism and discipleship should be really high on the list of, training. and not just for full-time workers, but for any believers that want to, be active in mission, in any way. you know, we've got this wonderful tool with us that we never had in the past.

Matt 39:31

So, good. It's one of the sessions I teach on our candidates course, actually digital media and, the use of smartphones and social media, all of that. And it's an amazing new language that this young generation understand so well, and they're so Adept in. but just finish off the story of Hussein perhaps and his own impact or Afghanistan.

Tim 39:50

He came to faith, he was growing in faith. at that time he was pretty cautious about who he would tell of his Muslim, circle. And I never pushed him into that because what I've seen over the years is as people, gain confidence and security as follows a Jesus, they'll have something to share by then.'cause they'll have learned a bit of the scriptures learn what their faith about, which they don't in the very earliest days. sometimes they choose how and when to do that. And in Hussein's case, he would quite wisely, ask people leading questions. And if they seemed very closed and religious, he wouldn't take it further. If they seemed open-minded, he would. other times, accidentally the news gets out and then people face a big crisis. Helping our Muslim background friends get through that crisis is a really key part, actually is, quite an important stage in their, discipleship. Anyway, Hussein, was, starting to share and then he found there's another, Afghan the Lord brought into his life who had already been searching for some time. And, Hussein revealed that he was a follower of Jesus and Hussein started discipling him, brought him to faith, and then went through the K me course with him in his own language that I'd already done with him previously. So this, second person then gained confidence. He started sharing with other, Afghans, refugees, so they've got more openness and freedom than they would've had in Afghanistan. so, by, last year a little group was starting to meet and that's continued to grow. And I've watched, Hussein, both in his secular work grow in responsibility and his Christian life grow. And I just really pray that he will find a believing wife that's, a really key need And there's, I think, a role for, workers to play in helping people in that at least be aware of what an important area this is. It's not that some people aren't called to the single life, and the lady that I mentioned In Oxford, she's single and flourishing and growing in the Lord, but, in many cases, marriage is one of the factors that really helped.

Matt 41:38

Tim, this is fascinating and I'm really enjoying all these, stories. one of the things I remember from when I interviewed Joshua was how many times he said that, yeah, you didn't push him into any decision he made. He felt God saying, you need to leave this university. He felt God saying, you need to find a Bible. and just being alongside with someone like that in the journey to support, encourage, pray, for, pray with just seems so important. And it seems like you've been able to model that, and trust the Holy Spirit really to guide them at the right time, when to share faith with family members or friends and so on. So yeah, thanks for sharing some of those stories with but bring us up to date. What's your current focus and tell us about word of life.

Tim 42:20

yes. just love linking up with like-minded people and that was one of the things we've seen in the formation of this organization called, uh, word of Life, which was really getting going in, 2018. and this really is to help, the World Church to welcome, equip and learn from Christ's followers, a Muslim background. because what we've seen is that a lot of agencies are focused on evangelism and praise God. But there didn't seem to be something that was serving globally and focusing not on evangelism, not on the processes up to conversion, but on those who are Christ followers who have come from Islam and working and walking with them. And, we're here not just to serve Christ followers and from Muslim background, but serve with them. So for example, in the core team, the staff team of World of Life were 22 people, nearly half of those themselves were former Muslims. And, I was talking to my colleague, from Bangladesh, I'm now serving under her in, developing, curriculum, a pathway help, Muslim background believers go from first steps towards maturity and ministry. laying good, strong foundations for active discipleship and, being committed to the body of Christ and processing areas like trauma that they may need to work through. getting established in understanding how God's word fits together and how to feed on God's word. areas like marriage and parenting that are so important for the future of the Muslim background Church. So, together with Muslim background believers around the world with developing courses in that area. other parts of Word of Life are to do with, the Hikma, branch, the partnership that Pat Britain did mentioned in a previous podcast. learning from the wisdom of Muslim background believers around the world. So it is an exciting space. you can learn more about it in, the word of Life website. and then within that site you'll find branches to those different, resources and initiatives. I'm 65 years old now, so I'm at the phase of, helping to see transition in leadership in, word of life in the coming years. But we're, excited about what God is doing.

Matt 44:20

Yeah, it's such an encouragement, really good resources, and we'll definitely put all of those in the show notes. As you wrap up, do you have any final words or wisdom for us? And, you know, I think in the future we'd love to get you back and talk more about this second generation, third generation discipleship. How does the emerging Muslim background church develop and strengthen? I think we can do more on that in the future. But yeah. any last thoughts and any last encouragement?

Tim 44:48

well, firstly, what a joy and what a privilege it is To serve outside of one's comfort zone. you have the challenges, but through this adventure of faith, since my wife and I first set out overseas 38 years ago, we've learned so much from the Lord, that we'd never would've learned if we'd been in a predictable, secure career in our own country. So it absolutely, isn't a higher calling. but I'm just saying it's a privilege, in our case that, we've had these opportunities at such a time as this when the Lord is working in the Muslim world as never before. so that's one thing I think, go with the flow is one of the mottos that we use in our family. Sometimes when things turn out unexpected or tough or our plans get blocked, we go with the flow. you learn to flex. you don't try and insist on your. plans of the Lord overturns them. And you look back and you see how God is there in all the twists and turns teaching you stuff along the way. It's not just the destination, but it's the journey, and what you learn on that journey. So I would certainly, point to that. I think, the importance of the national church, and the national believers, so much to learn. And, it saddens me when expatriates spends a lot of time, energy, and frankly money on going it alone, starting their projects, thinking that the national church isn't interested in Muslim evangelism. They have to do all themselves. and a few years later, they have to return to their home country and everything that they started, just dies in the dust. and I've seen the contrasting approach when people have been willing to be humble, be patient, to learn from nationals, to work alongside, Not, you know, necessarily get embedded into the politics of the national church, but working with those who have a heart for reaching out and establish things that have an ongoing impact. And I've seen that the impact of expatriates that last is either the impact on the lives of people they've working with, nationals, or, the impact in developing ministries that continue under national leadership and accountability or, developing resources that get used by nationals. but if you go it alone, you won't in the end go far. I think, encouraging and equipping others is another thing that's been a really core part of what I've tried to do. I find that, a lot of mission initiative develops as a kind of a coalition of the willing. so I find most stuff that I've got involved in, has come outta friendship with others. I think of people like Pat Britton that you, interviewed at another time on this, podcast. As you get together, you hang out, you drink coffee you find where people's heart is, and then when the coalition of the willing starts to form and you get going with something long before there are any structures or finance to support it, but it's surprising how far you can, go with light touch structures. and that's been a lot of fun. What I do find is that if somebody is. Heart or their gifts aren't quite in what you've planned for them. There's no point trying to push them in that direction. encouragement. The gift of encouragement is neglected, often and overlooked. It's one of the most important gifts in the body of Christ and it's one that we can all exercise as we look out for ways to, show appreciation to people to say, what we recognize in them, how God is using them, how God has gifted them, or if they're going through a tough time, how the Lord is with them. So those are a few of my sort of closing thoughts.

Matt 48:05

Yeah, that's really helpful. I certainly appreciated you in my very first year living in Pakistan. And you and Rachel just a couple of times. I remember coming around to your house just venting a little bit what's happening. I'm so confused by this culture and, just a few words of wisdom and encouragement from you guys was, vital for me. The funny thing is, I remember coming in the Rick Shore, I had no at that point, and, you'd told me, yeah, we live behind Broadway Bakery. As you remember very well. There was, that was me trying to explain to the taxi driver, rickshaw driver Broadway bakery. In my very British accent, he had no clue what I was saying until I eventually thought, I know I'm gonna try this in a Pakistani accent. So I said, and then he got it and we went straight there. I found your house. That's so funny. Yeah. That's a good memory. Yeah. But yeah, always, appreciated your encouragement over the years, whether it was to go and study further before moving to Pakistan or whilst I was in Pakistan. it's just great and been wonderful today to hear how the Lord has used you and supporting so many others and producing so many great resources for the church, But yeah, Tim, thank you so much for your time. really enjoyed it and appreciated it and look forward to staying in touch.

Tim 49:13

That's great, Matt. Thanks a lot. Fantastic.

Matt 49:16

All right, God bless.

49:18

Thanks so much for joining us today, guys. Do get in touch. As always, if you want to share how God is speaking to you through the podcast or if you want to partner with us in any way raising up more workers for the harvest, you can email me personally, matt@frontiers.org uk and here's a great quote to end with from one P four, 12 to 14. Dear friends. Do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you as though something strange were happening to you, but rejoice in as much as you participate in the sufferings of Christ so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed for the spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Have a great week, and do join us next time to hear from more ordinary people serving our extraordinary God in some of the toughest parts of the world.