The Blood of the Martyrs

In this episode Matt talks to Dr. Aweis Ali from Somalia, who grew up in a Muslim home in and around Mogadishu, the son of a Muslim cleric and preacher.

After coming to Christ and finding some other believers, Aweis' small church suffered a brutal and violent persecution in which most of the believers lost their lives. 

This is a story of remarkable faith, perseverance and courage in one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a follower of Christ.

Aweis is a partner of Open Doors and the General Secretary of the Bible Society of Somalia. You can see him sharing a few minutes of his story here on the Open Doors website.

NB. This episode contains some stories of extreme violence against Christians and may not be suitable for younger listeners.

Transcript

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 0:02

Christians in the North Somali land have a very good protection Both the culture the people and the government are very tolerant and friendly Radical Islam is very weak in Somali land but guess where the Somali church is growing the most Not in Somali land in the north where no one is killed in the South where Christians are killed right and left

Speaker 4 0:28

Hi guys. Welcome back to Raw Mission. As you know, if you're a regular listener, as well as hearing the stories of those who work among Muslims all over the world, we sometimes invite guests onto the show who've grown up Muslim, but who've chosen to follow Jesus. And so today I am delighted to have a dear brother from Somalia with us called Dr. Oes Ali oes. Grew up in a nomadic family, moved to Mogadishu, and began to follow Jesus as a young man these days. He's a partner of open doors and the Director General of the Somali Bible Society. And this is a stunning story of visions from God, courage, persecution, martyrdoms, and deep wisdom from the crucible of the suffering church. But please be aware that this episode contains some stories of extreme violence and therefore may not be suitable for younger listeners.

Matt 1:17

well, welcome to the show, Aase. It's so good to have you with us.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 1:21

thank you so much for having me

Matt 1:24

I'm really looking forward to hearing your story. I know that you have different hats because you work as the Secretary General of the Somali Bible Society. Correct. But also you, are you an ambassador for Open Doors as well?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 1:36

I'm a partner um with Open Doors one of the many partners in Africa

Matt 1:42

Brilliant. Yeah. So today we'll be hearing stories, about the Persecuted Church and the work of Open Doors. But I do want to start with your own personal story, if that's okay. Tell us about your childhood. Where did you grow up and what was your life like in those days?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 1:56

Well I'm a Somali from Somalia I'm from Muslim family my dad was a Muslim preacher a Muslim cleric madrasa teacher a Klan elder from a nomadic background born in the bush In reality no one knows when I was born It is all gas And so that's my background

Matt 2:20

Yeah, that's really interesting. Many of us

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 2:22

I

Matt 2:22

don't know much about Somalia, so Yeah. Did you have a large family? Lots of brothers and sisters. Was there cattle herding or what? What was the nomadic lifestyle like?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 2:33

yeah we normally had cattle goats sheep camels and we moved around following the rains We call that harvest on the hoof and that's how we survived Made a living yeah those that's my background And eventually when I was a few years old my family decided to move to the Somali capital Mogadishu because my dad wanted to be a Muslim cleric in the Somali capital surrounding regions And as a nomad that was difficult for him I was put on the back of a camel and then we moved We walked and walked and walked four days Eventually we ended up the Somali capital I was the youngest kid and my dad at the time had only one wife My mom who was just the first wife but then as a Muslim cleric he married multiple women only three bought him children my mom and two other younger wives my father died when he was 41 40 or 41 so he only left behind seven children I'm very certain that if he lived long enough to be say 60 65 70 he would have had probably 20 30 children

Matt 3:54

That's hard for us to imagine here, but quite common, I suppose, in those societies.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 3:59

Yes Yes usually Kalan elders Muslim rics all holy people in the Islam have multiple wives and they have children every year Few children An infant mortality is very high in much of Somalia So half of them don't make it

Matt 4:16

Yeah, it's really sad. And so you were very young when you moved to Mogadishu. Do you remember much of that?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 4:22

Yes I do I do remember actually on the back of a camel I'm not certain how old I was maybe I was four and I remember a lot I remember the first time I saw electric lights because before that we only had flashlights and I saw the street lights And I was like what in the world is that And I remember all these insects that were drawn into the lights and it was quite a sight

Matt 4:48

Yeah. And so your father, did he just sort of join a madrassa and, start Islamic training?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 4:54

yeah he was already well equipped in his Islamic status but he joined the Islamic School of a prominent Muslim cleric and under him he lent what he needed to learn And within a few years he was a full fledged Muslim cleric with his own disciples and mad a teacher

Matt 5:17

Wow, that's interesting. So actually a bit like the gospels where the rabbis would have their disciples and train them up to be rabbis, your father had to come under somebody else, learn from him,

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 5:27

Yes

Matt 5:28

then take on, his own role. Wow, And what was Mogadishu like in those days? Because we know there have been periods of war but in those days, was it a fairly calm city?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 5:38

Yes it was very peaceful city there was no conflict in the entire country you know other than some inter clan clashes There was no civil war speak of Somali Christians mainly Roman Catholics enjoyed peace security we had Somali Christians who were in the government as government ministers ambassadors director generals and yeah for example was one time a Somali Christian the deputy foreign minister was one time a Christian We had multiple ambassadors like one to Zambia and that was also a Roman Catholic And there was a law and order

Matt 6:21

Yeah, and I'm gonna ask in a minute what happened when, whatever Islamic Revolution or government came in. But before that, I'm just thinking about your mother. When your father died, what happened to, you know, all the wives left behind. Were there enough children that were grown up to look after them by then?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 6:38

No even the eldest child of my dad was at the time 17 and the second the eldest tells me I was 15 So yeah they have to hustle to raise their children And by God's grace all three of them have been really successful in raising I would say good kids

Matt 7:00

Yeah. That's great. And so were they able to sort of run small businesses as women in Mogadishu in those days, or did they have family support?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 7:09

they had small businesses Like my mom had cattle goats chickens you know she used to sell cow milk to the neighbors another of one of my moms had the actual the youngest widow of my dad had own small shop yeah back then life

Matt 7:28

Yeah.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 7:28

easier it is today So they made it

Matt 7:31

Wow.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 7:32

all the kids are doing well Very responsible kids

Matt 7:35

Good. tell us about your own faith as a teenager. How much did Islam mean to you?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 7:41

Islam was everything to me because I did not know any better That was the only thing but my dad was preparing me to become a Muslim ric so one day I could succeed him he heavily invested in me and the more he taught me Islam as a teenager the more questions I had And in the Somali Islamic culture you don't really ask difficult questions They are taboo questions you just take everything as it is but I always asked too many questions and that concern my dad one of the questions I remember one time we were like I think 13 14 and he had several boys he was teaching Islam giving them special session on family life and he told us that as the maximum WIS and Muslim mans allow to hive concurrently is actually four not more than four then unlimited concubines or slave women as they became available but I wasn't worried about slave women and concubines because that was a concept that was hard for me to understand at the time as we had none in our country So I took that to mean maybe some vast history but about wives wherever I looked in Somalia I could see wives So I said oh so Muslim mans allowed to have four maximum He said concurrently He said oh sure you don't do more than that Then I reminded him that the prophet of Islam had seven or nine depending on the tradition concurrently and I said he was a Muslim apparently So what happened And that was a question he was never asked So that quite shook him he said The prophet has a license to do whatever he wanted we are the ones who have to face the limits not him which I found to be quite odd

Matt 9:30

Right. So how did that question asking develop, you know, you knew it wasn't very popular, it wasn't very acceptable to ask so many questions, but clearly that was your nature, and how did your own journey develop your own faith journey?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 9:44

um I think that's how I was put together I think it's more of a nature than nurture because I have this tendency to this day to ask questions that many times put me in trouble do that in the church I do that outside the church and many times I find myself scolded avoided Like one time one of our neighbors committed suicide in early 1980s something which was very rare in my culture young man and my dad told us as young boys he was teaching in the madrasa oh to commit suicide is a very bad sin It's unforgivable sin and things like that And then because he told me Islam so well I reminded him that Saha authentic hath not disputed p Prophet Muhammad tried to commit suicide at least twice maybe three times early on when he the revelation and the revelation came late according to him he climbed on a mountain to throw himself down to kill himself And Sori says that then an angel Gabrielle appeared to him and said don't do this You'll receive more revelation So I said if killing yourself is such a bad thing why did Muhammad the prophet tried two or three times and he could not deny that because he taught us that So I was like the black sheep in the Mada

Matt 11:09

That's so interesting. Yes. Do carry on. How did all that develop for you?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 11:15

eventually when I hit the age of 15 one day I came across a radio ministry in Somalia language by a Christian mission group called SIM I was not looking for the radio program because I did not know it existed I wanted to listen to the WELL news I'm a news junkie to this day and I listened to the BBC because number one I did it to improve my comprehension of the English language and also the BBC News was more reliable than the government controlled media in Somali at the time But instead of finding the news on that day I came across this radio ministry When I listened and after the Somali preachers were done they said if you have any questions or you would like any Bible study materials send us a letter That's 1983 internet So I sent my snail mail which took forever to reach a country that was next door to us Kenya where the radio ministry was based at the time And they sent me a New Testament on Bible study materials by mail And I read and they sent me more and more and more and I would ask questions So I did not know any Christian at the time where I lived but the radio ministry was my local church and the ministers who are my pastors I could ask anything I wanted The return answer took forever sometimes two or three months you know at this I had people I could ask questions And so that's how I came across the gospel And after three years in 1986 I became a follower of Christ

Matt 12:56

Praise God. That's amazing. Yeah. Sometimes we call them bible correspondence courses, don't we? in Pakistan, that was quite a big thing for many years. in Turkey, I've heard of that also. So it's brilliant. Especially before the days of digital media and marketing and so on. that was one really good way. To reach people who never met a Christian.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 13:15

Yes

Matt 13:15

you yourself, presumably in secret were learning about Christ, reading the Bible. did you ever share that with anyone or did you keep it completely secret?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 13:25

In fact when I received them the Bible for the first time in 1983 I went to my Muslim dad and as any other Muslim kid you know we were taught that Christians and Jews lost their Bible the original Bibles are gone No one knows where they are What do Christians and Jews call a bible today is something that they put together not long ago And so many educated intelligent Muslims actually believe that like for example the Bible we have today say the Old Testament is not the same as the one that Jesus read so I went to my dad with my Bible and I said to him Abba do you remember teaching me that Christians and the Jews lost their Bible He said oh yes gone you can't find it today I said surprise Here it is in Somali I could also get one in Arabic if you wanted that you know I was only 15 and if I thought he would examine the claims of the Bible and as a Muslim scholar that he would be open to look at it but he did not want to touch it He jumped back and he said keep this thing away don't want to see it I don't want to touch it he said to me I know I cannot stop you from reading your Bible but if you ever became Christian I will be the one to take your life I was kind of shocked because you know as a learned man I expect him to examine to be curious He was taught that the Bible was lost He's teaching other people who will teach other people but here's a Bible So at least all he could do was to examine to see to evaluate he did not want to do that I knew that his threat was not an idle threat Because in the Somali Islamic culture it's not uncommon to see family member killing another family member for allegedly bringing a shame on the name of the family so for example it is not uncommon in the Somali culture to this day for a young girl if she gets pregnant outta Warlock to be killed by a family member because she could be even a rape victim No one cares It's always our fault be killed what happened So I knew that I had to be very careful so I just kept low profile I kept reading receiving more scriptures bible study materials and I was growing in my faith really but when I showed the Bible to my dad I was not actually interested to become a Christian was just gonna study and examine and see the claims but I had no intention but after three years of reading the Bible and studying I came to the conclusion that actually this was the right way to go And I became a follower of Christ by then my father was dead He died of asthma attack when he was 40 or 41 And so I went to my Muslim mom I told her mom starting from today I'm a follower of Christ this is what it means I give her an overview of the Bible In few minutes just to relieve her concerns because my mom never met a Christian but she had all these misconceptions from Muslim preachers that Christians are bad people So my mom was very worried and she expressed to me three concerns and two of which number one now you're a Christian Does that mean you will not respect me and love me as your mom According to my Muslim mom Christians don't care about their parents I don't know how tall her that but I know I know But you know it's just a lie It's a propaganda So I explained to her that in fact in the Bible parents are so important and there's no way that one could be a good follower of Christ they Did not honor their parents So I I will even love you more and respect you more now and you will see that her second concern was you eat pork and drink alcohol if you're a Christian now And I promised to my mom that I will never do that But I also pointed out to her that in Somalia at the time where do you go to find pork An alcohol is like Muslim country very strict I said mom you are baseless and then she called my uncle my dad's brother certainly my son is confused He's claiming to be a Christian Please come and scare him that he may return to Islam And my uncle instead of scaring me he actually tried to take my life and my mom had to intervene and say and remind him that she said you know I lost my husband not long ago and I don't want to lose my son

Matt 18:06

he came to your house. Did he actually come into your house and started to attack you and your mother just got in the way?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 18:12

yes

Matt 18:13

Sorry.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 18:14

so that's how it happened

Matt 18:16

Wow. Yeah, it's really interesting because what you are sharing is a very common story in some ways for Muslims who've come to Christ that they think, oh, my family should be okay because they love me and they respect me and yet it's a big shock when they realize, no, it doesn't work like that so often and, what's filling the mind like you talk about with your father, especially just shame and all these fears and they come into their minds. They're not thinking rationally, is this true or is this not true? It doesn't matter. It's just shame flooding them, isn't it? So, yeah, thank you for sharing. That must have been a very challenging time, but you were so honest and you were so respectful, and I'm sure that helped go a long way to keeping that relationship going with your family. I hope it continued to stay strong. How did it develop?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 19:02

for the first I think two years was difficult First three years because they expected the worst but once they realized actually following Christ made me a better person I was already a good Muslim boy I was never a troublemaker but they could not believe it Some of my cast would come to me sometimes in the first year and say you are claiming to be a Christian but you're still such a good boy Is that like a joke And I would tell them that was like my ministry opportunity I say Hey actually to be a follower of Christ it means to be a good person yeah Finally I was accepted by my family I would say now I have about 80 acceptance family and relatives Klan members They love me judge me honor me My uncle and I mended fences We have a very good relationship and yeah So God is good God's good

Matt 20:01

Yeah. Praise God. Okay, now I guess the next thing you were thinking was, how can I meet other Somali believers? Was that something you were trying to establish and work out inside Mogadishu?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 20:13

absolutely I needed a fellowship but I did not know anyone I could go to So becoming a Christian in 1986 within a year or so I asked the radio ministry people if they could introduce me to any Somali Christians in the capital because almost everybody was underground The Somali Catholics were widely accepted by the system so they were not persecuted because they were not first generation Christian second third fourth generation of them had Italian French English names and not Somali names So they received some protection But those who are first generation Christians this were really targeted discrimination and things like that so I asked the radio ministry people if they could introduce me to any Somali Christian and a missionary the US responded to me and said he gave me a little bit of information of a group of Somali Christians that met in some area in the city he said are you aware of that I was so happy I said no tell me more And he did not tell me more

Matt 21:24

Yeah. He must been worried about them.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 21:27

did not know me well enough He never met me Only through letter writing and there's so much you can know about somebody and even some Christians well they are good people They can talk too much They have loose lips so to speak and you know loose lips sink ships So you don't want to bring someone new into a fellowship and then they talk too much and then the fellowship becomes a target The house church So was protecting the the securities safety and the wellbeing of the group that met in the capital at the time So yeah that was really I held it I don't hold it against him He did Well I would've done the same thing if I was in his place after the civil War when I felt very lonely the Somali Civil War finally the Somali government collapsed in 1991 January my radio Ministry of correspondence stopped because the postal system also collapsed did not work anymore I looked around no telephone no internet no Boal surface and then finally I went to a Christian mission organization that had an office not far from where I lived they were working as a relief and development organization lady from Sweden and was a leader spoke my mother tongue had no idea she was a believer to be honest with you but because of her character because of her integrity and her sacrifice and how much people liked her I that that she was really a follower of Christ I was judging her by her fruits so I said to myself I would go to that lady her name is Annie Strom Now she passed away some years ago And I said to her I went to her office and to the compound and GO bound and GO is a non-governmental organization And I said to her my name is Oise I'm a Somali Christian I gave her my testimony very briefly I said I'm looking for a fellowship I'm very lonely Do you happen to know any Somali Christian And she looked at me like I was like from another planet because that's not the way you do things in the Muslim world I could be an imposter you know And then she looked at me and said wait here So she left me standing in the compound when she walked to our office and she was gone like longer than I expected maybe 15 20 minutes And I said to myself oh no she is coming back empty handed She's long gone She does not know anybody you know And then she comes back with a young man about my age at the time and she says to me this is Liban His name is Liban He's a Somali Christian And I actually I knew the man he lived not far from where I lived I knew he was a good guy family man but I had no idea he was a follower of Christ you know many Christians stay underground for secure reasons especially when there's no government to protect you when there's no law and order And so Liban would tell me later that when the lady Annie Halstrom went back to her office she knelt down and she prayed saying something like God reveal it to me Is this man real or would he indenture the life of Li Ban If I introduced Liban to him reveal it to me She said God I will not introduce Li ban to this man unless you make it very clear that he's safe And she prayed and prayed and prayed That's a big powerful lady who managed a multimillion dollar projects She knelt down and prayed 20 minutes

Matt 25:14

Praise God.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 25:15

and then She had this piece that said to her he's safe He's safe He's one of us go ahead and do it And she went to Liban and said Liban I know this sounds like crazy but I prayed about this and I have a confirmation from the Lord that this man is one of us and he's safe Come with me and meet him Just like that

Matt 25:35

So good. And it was this guy, Liban from a Muslim background himself.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 25:39

yes Oh yes Oh yes Liban Hassan so we decided to start a bible study of two people we started in less than a year we had 14 members in our house church Our fellowship our bible study became a fellowship and then became a house church and Liban and I were the co pastors we started the House Church in 1993 by the end of 1993 early 94 we came under intense persecution and we knew that we were being targeted and one day li ban in his who was in his mid twenties March 1994 was reporting to work and he was shot and killed by two Muslim gun

Matt 26:23

So sorry.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 26:24

yeah shortly before Liban was killed one morning he came to my house and told me two visions he had I will just share one and he said I was in the house church I was preaching and you were all there listening he said A stranger came into the house church with a gun And then he said to me I will either kill you and spare everyone else or I will spare you and kill everyone else And Lipan without missing a beat said kill me and spare my people So the guy he said raised his hand and the trigger he said I collapsed he said that's what happened he said to me I know they'll kill me I know they'll kill me I know they'll kill me But you will be safe He added so when they kill me lead the house church lead it He told me that I said okay I I will do it We prayer together and for short time he was shot and killed So I became the pastor of the House church I appointed another elder in the house church His name is a Booker Hart as your team a booker And you know this what happened if they take me out because I knew I was also on the hit list as a physical leader you'll be the pastor And he accepted that appointment and the killings never stopped Actually I remember we took like two or three weeks off when Leban was killed maybe just two weeks off And then we started remit again then the important question Wesley ban scaling related to his faith Or was it a random killing Because the guys who killed him never said why they killed him We we could just guess but we had no evidence And people gave different opinions but one of the members said there's no way we will know it for now let's just continue meeting And if one of us is killed quickly we will know he was killed for his faith and we are all being targeted So we said oh yeah that makes sense And very short time later one of us was killed So we had no doubt that we were being targeted for our faith And of the 14 members actually 12 were killed and only two survived I and a Boha survived

Matt 28:38

I'm sorry brother. And just tragic. You must have gone to all those funerals and. Seen the families grieving? Were they angry with you even?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 28:49

actually we made a deal when Liban was killed that we should never attend a funeral if any one of us who was killed because that was an easy way that we could be taken out so we visited the families after the funeral we would go unexpected out of the blue and show up and say Hey we had this agreement not to attend the funeral we're all being targeted but we're here to encourage you to support you so that's how we did it Yeah it's a difficult time personally I felt a lot of pain I could not eat I could not sleep I was actually underweight I weighed so little it was a difficult time and even

Matt 29:29

Um,

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 29:29

were killed of the believers There were also two seekers who were killed and one of them called Cory was mistaken for a Christian even though he was not He just came sometimes you know read the Bible and he was our friend one One of the believers who was killed his Muslim wife was also killed because they were attacked one night in their bedroom they were both shot

Matt 29:53

Oh dear brother. I'm sure there must be so much you could talk about during those days. Was there ever that doubt in your mind that that sort of voice in your head saying, give up, this is not worth it. Give up.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 30:07

actually no that never crossed my mind and I doubt it crossed the mind of any of us because while the killings continued almost every one of us had visions Dreams when we came every Friday that's the day we met for worship because Sunday is a normal working day people would share a vision They had this one guy called him Moham who was actually and new believer who told us that he was sleeping one night and then he saw this bright light that said to him don't be afraid you think it's over but it's not out of this house Church that's basically now ashes is strong healthier Chart will come out of this So he actually came to tell us that and a week or two later another member came to the house church when there was like only four of us left And he said I looked around in my dream and I could see only one or two survivors He said we were all gone We were all gone Only one or two of us will make it He said and we all pray together we continue And as he said only two made it the other survivor of course I'm one the other survivor a booker had read a young man I believe that his system failed he was a family man very responsible charge elder I think I'm sure that the intensity of the persecution the pain had a toll on him and he got sick and and passed away In his forties early forties Yeah

Matt 31:47

most of us cannot imagine this kind of pressure and suffering, brother. What kind of scriptures did you lean into during those days and how did you manage to meet and pray and teach in the midst of all this chaos?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 32:02

Yeah because we lent the Bible so well persecution happened physical persecution happened None of us was shocked No one was like saying what is happening Why is this happening to us No one said that And you know I like two three 12 where it says in fact everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted And many of us cited John 1520 that Jesus said if they persecuted me They will persecute you So we knew we were not better than our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Persecution is a normal part of the gospel In fact in the Somali church we say if you are persecuted normal If you are not persecuted for your faith then that is a sign for concern It's a red flag when you are not physically persecuted so why would radicals where would they feel so comfortable around you that they don't see you as a threat and they leave you alone That means your faith is very lukewarm And so we experience shootings decapitations in fact online you could find and I could send you the link I doubt you want to see it This young Somali Christian Guy Monsu Muhammad who was decapitated on camera because he refuse to deny Christ and where they killed him Today we have multiple house charges So there are killings shootings decapitations toppings poisoning anything you can imagine so when an elder a leader's appointed in the Somali ministry we tell them because we have a sense of humor despite the persecution we have not lost our sense of humor So we tell him my you don't need any pension retirement fund because you'll not live that long

Matt 34:02

Wow. That's crazy. This is such a challenge for us in the West. Yeah. A real challenge for us who live in more comfortable societies to consider this. did you in those days think a lot about eternity and the gospels, strong promise, the promise of Christ that we'll be with him forever? Was that a real hope for you in those days?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 34:23

Yes absolutely Absolutely we had hope knew Christ was persecuted we will be persecuted We were growing in our faith and we knew Tartu saying that the blood of the murder is the seed of the church we knew that the church in the book of Acts when persecution became very physical very painful and they scattered that's when they took the gospel Wherever they went to the good news And we knew that the even though we did not like it that it's gonna be a positive thing for the growth and the health of the church we knew that genocide has no place in the church there's little history of the church surviving a genocide persecution when you lose 10 20 of the population we grow and become stronger But you know finally in the summer of 1996 I came to the other surviving house charge member a book or name and I suggested to him that we need to leave Somalia We go toing countries like Kenya or Ethiopia I suggested to him we stay there for you know a few months to be physically and spiritually stronger get some basic training bible training And I said you know we are in danger And a booker very confident man told me a vision he had shortly before we met And he said I had this vision and I have this confirmation from the Lord that you and I will be safe And whenever the radical Islamists come to kill us they will not be able to see us The Lord God would blind them believe me always will be invisible to them and then he added we could be standing right in front of them and they will not be able to see us Then he said don't go anywhere Let's stay What's the problem

Matt 36:20

Wow. It's a tough one because, I mean in scripture, you know, even Jesus said, yes, you will be persecuted. But he also said to his disciples at one point, if they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. and the Apostle Paul, of course fled from the city at one point down in the basket, let down by the other disciples. So there is biblical precedent. Sometimes it's right to leave and sometimes it's right to stay and trust God, isn't it? So

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 36:43

right

Matt 36:44

did you manage to work that out between you?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 36:46

because was a weaker one spiritually and physically I could barely work I was very thin sleepless I said I believe in division You told me I said I believe in of the vision And then I said I'm too weak to stay physically and spiritually I need spiritual rejuvenation I need to sleep I need to eat better if I stay here even if no one comes to kill me I'll just collapse and give up I need to go So he prayed for me and then I traveled to Ethiopia And my second day there I met the Somali Christian by the name of Mohamed Ali and he invited me to his local church I joined the local church I met the missionary couple who were leading the local church and they became like my spiritual parents And they sponsored me to go to a bible college in Addis Ababa But within a year each time I had a break from the Bible college I would go back to Mogadishu Somalia and meet my friend I left behind We will travel throughout southern Somalia and the Lord used us to plant multiple house charges fellowships bible study groups in three to four years And the growth was amazing and we have never felt any physical threat but some of the people who came to the Lord through our ministry were killed but both of us were safe

Matt 38:16

that's so interesting. do you know Nick Ripkin?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 38:19

yes In fact when Liban was killed I went to his office Nick Ripkin is a very good man I'm sure you know that's not his real name It's just a pen name prayed me He encouraged me that man is a hero in the Somali ministry

Matt 38:34

Wonderful. Yeah, we had Nick on the show a couple of years ago now, and, beautiful man. I loved hearing his story. and that was so interesting because he was telling, like you the story of when so many were killed and it seemed like the church was dying and yet when we look forward many years, you know, when you are doing your ministry again, planting churches,

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 38:55

Yeah

Matt 38:56

then even up to today, it's so different. The church has come back to life in greater numbers and greater strength than ever before.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 39:02

Absolutely Absolutely In fact a Booker Hared the young man who also survived who now passed away a Booker Hared was working very closely with Nick Ripkin Nick Ripkin Ripken discipled him supported him and his family so Nick Ripken is part of the Somali church history

Matt 39:19

Wonderful. it's beautiful when we see the insiders and the outsiders partnering together for God's glory supporting one another, learning from one another. That's a beautiful story. Wow. this is incredible. thank you so much for sharing this. so you then were in Kenya going in and out of Somalia, and is that the situation to this day?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 39:42

I travel to Somalia very often but I stay for like a week maybe 10 days at the most yeah for me because I'm such a high profile Somali Christian it is not easy for me to live within Somalia right now the Somali government is very weak and can't provide security to citizens I often live in Kenya maybe Ethiopia and then I travel to Somalia and stay there meet the believers there It's just in and out

Matt 40:14

Yeah. over the years did you get married and have your own family?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 40:16

Yes yes My wife and I work together in fact my church when I graduated from Bible college in 2000 I graduated and then my church sent me to the US after one year of full-time ministry to do a graduate degree my missionary boss from the US told me to get good training in the us I was there for four years where I earned my MDF I met my wife at the seminary there She was also seminary student we got married in January 2003 and the Lord blessed us with four kids we are ministry partners

Matt 40:56

Tell us a little bit about your work nowadays and your particular heart, your work with open doors, maybe.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 41:01

Yeah open doors is An amazing ministry partner the way they know and understand the Islamic Ministry the Somali ministry is really beyond comprehension They know so much they support us with Bible trainings the discipleship trainings leadership trainings some of the people are arrested in Somalia mainly Somalia land by the way in Somalia land they arrest you in Somalia the South they kill you So I think it's better in Somalia land if we need any money for legal fee open doors really helps us to hire a lawyer as a result of that when our people get arrested in Somaliland they get released within a year or so I'm also with the Somali Bible Society as the General Secretary we do bible translation re of development and other ministries I'm also one of the lecturers at the a new university which an online Somali Christian University I also work with my church as a minister of the gospel in charge of the work in the home of Africa So yeah I wear

Matt 42:12

So many different things. Okay. Let me ask you a different kind of question. How would you explain Jesus and the good news to a fellow Somali who's grown up in Islam, who knows nothing? would you start? And perhaps you have some stories of what's happened when you've shared the gospel with fellow Somalis.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 42:32

where I normally start is to sit down with them and talk to them and say because Muslims believe Somali Muslims they believe that Jesus Christ was a good prophet that he was born of the first Gen Mary that he will come back and he will rule but there are some misconceptions about his revelation about this message So I will tell them why don't you follow Jesus right now Instead of say Muhammad and they will say oh because Jesus message was abrogated is not valid anymore Now the newer message of Mohamed that is the message for today but Jesus's message was abrogated It is not applicable to us anymore That's where I Gently challenge them and say who told you that this message was abrogated And they oh it's in the Quran it's in the hadif the sayings And that's how I use Islamic sources that his message was never changed Jesus message was never changed because Islam teaches that the words of God cannot be changed It was not abrogated either It's still valid claim that Muhammad is the prophet that all have to follow is based on a lie and Jesus message is still valid That's how I talk to them And then questions about the Trinity They'll ask questions about the reliability of the Bible And I can explain to them that the Bible we have today is actually not in new invention The Old Testament as we call it the Hebrew Bible we have today is the same one that Jesus Christ read during this earthly days And that the New Testament as we have it today a new invention either And that can be proven you know historically archeologically once we can establish the reliability of the Bible and that the message of Jesus was not abrogated I think we are into a good beginning

Matt 45:10

Yeah, And how do you explain the core message of Jesus because I think most of the Muslims I've met, they have no idea what the message of Jesus is. They assume that Jesus said, believe in one God. Believe in one God. All the prophets said, believe in one God. Well, I say to my Muslim friends, actually, he was a Jew. All his people believed in one God. So that was not the message of Jesus because they all believed that this was not a time when he came of mass idolatry in first century Palestine or first century Judea. So. what is actually the message of Jesus? What is the core, the heart of it that is so different to Islam that you grew up in?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 45:47

Yeah But first we laid the foundation right Because the message of Christ needs a foundation in the eyes of Muslims And so once they believe that his message was never abrogated the New Testament was never abrogated still valid One is they understand that the gospel the Bible as we have today is not new invention or a corruption Then that's a good beginning Then we talk about the essential and the basic doctrines of the Bible of the Christian faith And we talk about sin and then we talk about sacrifice the death of Christ on the cross And then we talk about his resurrection and then the second coming of Christ we talk about living a holy life all these basic doctrines that actually all Christians agree

Matt 46:32

Yeah, definitely. And do you find that Muslims within Islam begin to, just as you open the Bible with them, as you give them a confidence in the Bible, then they can start to read the message of Jesus or hear it for themselves and they, can see at that point, oh, this is more than religion. we have a very strong religion in Islam, but we don't have this, this message.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 46:53

one of the things that really touched Muslims when I talk to them is the incarnation of the word of God how Christ came surfed how he washed the feet of his disciples even in Islam Islam often talks about the people of the book the Jews and the Christians do people groups enjoy Higher profile than bas so the bes are like the bottom and you have the Jews and then you have the Christians So Islam both the Quran and Haddi traditions of Muhammad talk about Christians as very humble people very kind people very generous people And when Koran compares Jews and Christians the Koran says the closest to you Muslims The closest are actual the Christians So we already have an Islamic foundation if any Muslim knows the basics of Islam not see us as an enemy but as an ally as people who care about them who love them people who want the best for them and to wish a Muslim the best the first thing to do is to share the good news with them We are not well the food program we are not WFP or unicef We are the disciples of Christ message to share

Matt 48:10

Amen. That's so important. Yeah. We, want to show them the love of Christ, but we must speak it. Speak the truth of Christ and the good news yeah, that's exactly it. Once people actually hear the good news with all their preconceptions taken away,

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 48:24

yes

Matt 48:24

they can see, oh, I don't have this. This is new, eternal life and forgiveness and honor instead of shame and cleansing instead of uncles. Yeah. It's such a beautiful gospel. Thank you. yeah. Any final thoughts about, the church in Somalia these days or any other work you're doing that you want to leave us with and give us some encouragement about?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 48:49

Yeah the Somali Church is one of the fastest growing church in the world Of course according to Watch list and open doors the Somali Church has always been the second or the third most persecuted church in the world Korea is always number one and sometimes it's between Afghanistan and Somalia Which one is number two or number three So Somalia has been number two for quite a while the global average growth is about 2.1 the Somali charge is way above that way above that so there must be something in persecution that purifies the church I would like the Christian community to pray for the Somali Church Not that the persecution will disappear then you will not have a church You'll have like a clap you know you'll have a church but that we will thrive in the midst of the persecution We do not want a church without persecution because the persecution is an integral part of the gospel So may God use the persecution to purify us and to help And the fact that Arturian shared the blood of the murder is a city of the church It's visible today in like in Somalia We have two main regions the south and the north The north is Somali land where there's no record of any Somali Christian ever killed for their faith It just never happened Christians in the North Somali land have a very good protection Both the culture the people and the government are very tolerant and friendly Radical Islam is very weak in Somali land but guess where the Somali church is growing the most Not in Somali land in the north where no one is killed in the South where Christians are killed right and left

Matt 50:36

So interesting. I'm gonna think a lot about that phrase you just said. If we don't have persecution, we'll become a club, not a church. That's really challenging for us. Thank you. That helps us pray for you guys. It helps us pray for the church in Iran these days, the emerging and growing church in Afghanistan as well. Yeah. And perhaps in the west one day, persecution will grow and grow here too. And we mustn't be afraid. Your example is a great encouragement to us, so thank you for that. brother, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. I've really enjoyed, hearing the history and your own personal story is so deeply challenging and moving. I'm sure it brings back a lot of emotions for you, but God is good and yeah, you've reminded me and our life is short in this world, we don't know how many years we have. God is in control and God loves us and he has a. Beautiful eternity for of us. And on that final day, there will be Somali brothers and sisters alongside everyone in the global family, and we rejoice at that. It'll be an amazing day and we'll see actually what God was doing in the midst of really tough times. Much more than just on a little podcast where we hear the stories of what we've seen. Brother. Yeah. Thank you so much. Any final words?

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 51:51

Yeah I would like as a final one in the West I believe you actually have persecution in church tradition persecution is divided into two categories white persecution which is psychological emotional financial And then the threat persecution which involves the shedding of the blood is a physical persecution So whereby in the Muslim world and in China we have threat persecution where our blood is shed in the west is all psychological people make fun of you you can't share your faith openly You could lose your job if you did that or be arrested in some western countries If you talk about certain teachings of the Bible which are seen as in conflict with the system at the time and in my experience white persecution is more dangerous to the church than red persecution in red persecution we know there's a persecution and we build up immunity But in white persecution you think you are okay and you have no persecution so you are caught off guard

Matt 52:54

That's so true. And just gently, we become soft and we compromise and we slow down and become less bold. Yeah, you're right. That's such an interesting way to look at it. That's very helpful. Thank you. Well, may the Lord deliver us from all kinds of persecution in, in the sense that we fight through it and we persevere, like you said, not that it all goes away, but that we learn how to seek the Lord and worship him and proclaim the gospel, whatever kind of persecution we are facing. Yeah. This has been so good, brother. I appreciate your time. Thank you for coming on, and we pray for, and bless the work of Open Doors. We've always loved their work. your founder, brother Andrew, very close to our heart, has a strong heart for

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 53:35

Yeah

Matt 53:36

amongst Muslims as well.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 53:37

Mm-hmm Thank you so much brother and thank

Matt 53:39

Thank you.

Rev. Aweis A. Ali, PhD 53:39

you so much and God bless you

Matt 53:41

Thank you.

Speaker 3 53:43

Thanks so much for joining us today, guys. May the Lord give us the same courage and faith and perseverance as those in the global church who suffer for the name of Jesus. As always, do get in touch. If you want to share how God is speaking to you through the podcast, or if you want to give to the work that we're doing, reaching out with the good news to Muslims all over the world, you can email me personally, matt@frontiers.org.uk. And let's finish with one Peter, chapter four, verse 12, Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you as though something strange were happening to you, but rejoice in as much as you participate in the sufferings of Christ so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. Have a great week, and do join us next time to hear from more ordinary people serving our extraordinary guard in some of the toughest parts of the world.