Ep. 101 - Namaste, Namaz & The Name of Jesus

Not many people realise that India, in spite of being a majority Hindu country, is also the world's 3rd most populous Muslim country (with over 200 million Muslims). Moreover, in spite of dynamic church growth and movements to Christ in some parts of the country, it remains the nation with the largest number of unreached people groups in the world. 

The Joshua project estimates that 95 out of 100 Indians live in an unreached people group (less than2% Evangelical and less than 5% Christian Adherent). And 3 out of 4 Indians live in frontier unreached people groups (less than 0.1%
Christian Adherent, i.e. the most unreached). And the workers there are SO few compared to the numbers in Africa and Latin America. (For more details, look at the bar charts in this excellent Why India document.)

In this episode Matt talks to a young couple who've been living in an Indian city for the best part of a decade. They share fascinating stories of life and ministry there, with its many ups and downs. Dodging cows and camels, trying not to get electrocuted and raising a family in a Muslim-majority neighbourhood... there's rarely a dull moment! 

Transcript

Speaker 3 0:02

we've known so many people who have had dreams of Jesus coming to them and speaking something significant to them in a dream or vision, or who have decided that they are going to pray namaz in the name of Jesus and then suddenly their prayers start getting answered or they even hear a voice speaking to them out loud. Like those are all experiences we've directly heard from people that we know. This is the time for the Muslim world harvest to come in and he is. Planting the seeds himself and then sending out his workers to go and reap the harvest. Hi guys. Welcome back to RAW Mission, where we hear from men and women courageously taking the good news of Jesus to the ends of the earth. They've chosen a life filled with risk, instability, discomfort, and sometimes danger, but they're very aware of who has called them, who has sent them, and who goes with them. I'm Matt, your host,

Speaker 2 0:51

And today, I'm joined by Sandy and Sebastian, who've been living and working among Muslims in India for many years. They share a whole range of stories about the joys and challenges of life in a large Indian city, including stomach bugs, electric shocks, COVID, cows, and camels

Matt 1:08

well welcome guys. It's so good to have you on the show. You are a very long way away from me here in the uk. Sebastian and Sandy, great to have you with us.

Sebastian and Sandy 1:18

Thanks so much. It's a privilege to be with you today.

Matt 1:20

Let's go into your backstory tell us a little bit about where you grew up, how you met, and a sort of journey on the way to heading over to the east

Sebastian and Sandy 1:30

Yeah, so we're in India and we actually met,. University. and we met in an Indian guy's house, actually, many years ago now. but I didn't even know what a Muslim was until probably nine 11. That's almost shameful to say, as an American. There's a lot of truth to that. And then in university was the first time that I was really getting exposed to Muslims from all these different places. And, I loved them, God put that on my heart. And, I started working with a, a college ministry that was focused on international students and sharing the gospel and discipling those that were coming from more Christian countries. and I'll let, her share her side to it in a minute. But, we met doing that work. and when we did get married, we said, we know we're gonna go overseas eventually. we hadn't quite said we were gonna be doing it with, Muslims, but that was definitely on our heart at that time. in our wedding, we had people from, I think six different countries that were seeing how great is our God. And one of 'em was a Saudi guy. and we were very careful about what he's saying even to, so that would be something that was offensive to him. But he was. More encouraged just to be there, and to be doing that. he was a Muslim guy that we had met, we'd spent a lot of time with. At one point we were doing Quran and Bible study together, along with him and a couple other people that were part of this ministry we were part of. and he, I mean, he just, became a really good friend of ours. actually when we went on our first date together, I had a Jordanian guy, a Muslim guy who came, who was a good friend of ours, and he was the one that, he's like, I wanna do your hair. I wanna make it look really nice because we all like, Sandy and we wanna, make you look good for her. Like, I wasn't good enough or something. And so ended up going to this, ministry dance, in our city and they actually came along. A lot of them came along with us and stuff and were there and it was a really good experience. So, all throughout really our dating life and then getting married we had Muslims that were part of that international students, and so the world was coming to us.

Matt 3:25

That's great. Okay. Sandy, you pick up the story and tell us what state we're in at this stage of your lives in, America?

Speaker 3 3:31

Yes. So this story so far makes it sound like we were both from a very multicultural background. No, this was in, rural Louisiana. and that was where I was originally from. And I grew up hunting squirrels and deer and running around in swamps and. Definitely not having a wide awareness of the world. and it was really during our university years that that awareness started dawning for me as well. just through meeting international students, getting really just a vote of confidence placed in me by the leader of Baptist ministry on campus who recruited me to be their international student outreach team leader. Even though I had no experience whatsoever, I'm really not sure what led to that appointment, but it led to a lot of great things in the rest of our lives that wouldn't have happened otherwise. so the Lord was guiding that. we got to know each other, got married and then within three weeks of getting married and launching from there, we were working with a refugee ministry, out near the west coast. And we spent the next two years, the first two years of our marriage working there with, Refugees who were from a South Asian background, mostly Hindu background, a few Buddhists, so mostly a Bhutanese Nepali group. that had some really amazing things happening among them that we can't claim any credit for. Like we were just kind of there seeing them happen. we saw this refugee community of a few hundred people go from having two believing families at the start of our time there to a house church of 55 plus people that was meeting by the end. and again, we really can't claim any credit for that. We had no idea what we were doing and we were very young. but the Lord was really just working very powerfully in that community through a lot of different people who were pouring into it.

Matt 5:20

Oh, that's wonderful. So is that where your love for South Asia began then and really formed.

Sebastian and Sandy 5:25

That's a very interesting question. So I would not say that's where my love for South Asia began. I would say that's where my burnout of South Asia began. we loved the people that we were serving with and God was doing amazing things. I like to say a lot of times we were just witnesses to what God was doing in that community. We were really blessed to be part of it. And that was the teaching phase for us. We were learning, how to live with the world and taking one step deeper into their community. We lived, among the refugees there,

Speaker 3 5:55

in a bed bug ridden apartment

Sebastian and Sandy 5:57

in a bedbug ridden apartment. But when we left that community, and we were already on our, journey to going overseas, we were really burned out and we were really tired and it was an exhausting experience. And when we were first looking overseas and seeing where the need was and Muslim peoples were, and where there were groups that were unreached. I remember specifically saying, I do not want to go to South Asia. I do not want to go to India. At that time, it wasn't out of a hateful heart or anything. I was just like, oh, my image of what a Muslim is. It's more where the Gulf states are, maybe in Southeast Asia. but it definitely wasn't in South Asia. And we were just so burned out from it. but as we began that process of looking and searching, we just saw there were so many opportunities and there were such a huge need in South Asia and there still is. we're currently, In an area that does not have a lot of people that are working with Muslims, there's about only about six foreign workers that are serving in a community of over a hundred million people. And then when it comes to Muslims, you're talking us, you know, six people and then the next nearest people are goodness gracious, 50 million Muslims away. so there's just not a lot of workers here and there's just such a, a big need, but it definitely wasn't on our radar.

Matt 7:15

Can I ask just a bit more about the burnout? was that because you were living quite a poor lifestyle and just that sort of community sense of everyone's in each other's houses all the time and helping each other and you're there to serve and you're young, so you're probably not boundaried very well. Was it all of that in a big mix?

Speaker 3 7:34

Yeah, it was a lot of that, I think you hit most of the main issues there. We could have people knocking on our apartment door anywhere from, 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM wanting help with a medical issue or, you know, a phone call or form they need to make for government aid or whatever it was. and it was also really our first experience meeting people on their cultural turf more. although we were in America, we were definitely in a Nepali majority community there. and although we were still operating mostly in English, we were having to learn, how do we operate with how families work within this community? How do we, respect the traditions that are honored here and show respect for elders and, eat the right foods the right way and make sure we aren't using the wrong hand, and all of these things. And that on top of being very freshly married, was a lot to process. but it was actually a very good experience. I feel like in a lot of ways we had more culture shock. Than we did when we actually landed in India. and we just got the burnout over with ahead of time,

Matt 8:35

Wow, that's a great perspective. Thank you. Okay, I'm guessing you were in your mid twenties around that kind of time. So tell us more about how you ended up in India.

Sebastian and Sandy 8:44

We were actually in our early twenties at that time, and how we ended up in India. That's. We really just started looking for opportunities, where there was need. And we started looking at different teams that already existed. cause we knew at that time we were young and we were still learning so much. We wanted to come and join an existing team. We actually wanted to be on a team Even that had been around a long time and had a, leader that could train us and disciple us along the way. and it kind of ended up flipping around a little bit because we, were gonna join a team, but because things are so rapidly changing here we ended up really just being under a brand new team leader. but they was so much opportunity that existed and there was just so much need. And Sandy and I feel like we fill in gaps. That's one of the things that God has brought us to do. And so we saw that there were so many gaps in the ministry that was happening here. and we really found our place, and at that time just saw that there was a lot of need.

Matt 9:43

Sandy, what about you? I mean, even as a kid, perhaps you hadn't imagined that you'd ever go live overseas. I don't know until you had had that experience on the West Coast, somewhere in the States, yeah, tell us your sort of key moments perhaps in thinking. Yes. Okay. We're gonna do this, we're gonna move to India and then I wanna move into some of the, what was it like arriving for the first time?

Speaker 3 10:05

yeah. So I think that it really just was the word leading us to India. we knew when we got married, we wanted to go overseas. We knew we wanted to do a couple of years in the us in a international adjacent ministry first after getting married. And we did that. but then once we were looking for where to go, it really did seem like the word was just showing us. That he meant for us to put our experience with Muslims and with South Asians together, even if we didn't feel like doing that at the time. and the open doors were just in South Asia. Like we looked at a couple of teams in Northern Africa, in Indonesia, and they were all lovely and wonderful teams, but there just weren't really open doors there visa wise or access wise. so it's kind of like the Lord just settled us into India, And for arriving, India is just total overwhelm when you first arrive. the smell hits you at the same time as the heat, as the same time as the noise. and I remember just even the vision trip that we took to India before we actually moved, Within one day we were, staying in a little apartment and had like pigeons get stuck in our enclosed balcony that we had to like catch and chase out. And then we're going and visiting these teams, and they're going out to the market and buying whole chickens and chopping their heads off at home and we're, coming fresh from the us like, okay, this is a real change of pace here. But like I said, having already kind of got a whittle of the initial shock of living in another culture over I feel like allowed us to grapple with the environmental things and the cultural things with a little bit less overwhelm at the time. and there are a lot of crazy stories, and sometimes things happen at the beginning that you think, oh, this is going to be normal now. And then it turns out it's not. I think on day five or six, in India, I was walking the language class and I had to flatten myself completely against a wall in an alleyway because there was a charging bull coming down the mud, slicked alleyway, sliding all over the place, right towards me. and on day five or six in India, I'm like, okay, well this is my life now. just dodging charging cows in alleyways and that's never happened again in the rest of the 10 plus years, we also almost ran into a camel on our scooter at night, one time within the first month. And that's never happened again either. So, you know, sometimes things just surprise you and then it turns out that that's not typical. That was just a fun little extra that God gave you.

Matt 12:29

That's so true. I love these kind of stories 'cause it really helps us imagine what it's like on the streets there. with camels and cows and all of that. The rickshaws, the scooters, whatever's, happening. Yeah. Sebastian. What about yourself? Any early memories? Early crazy stories or surprises? Funny incidents.

Sebastian and Sandy 12:49

Yeah. one of the things you have to know about arriving in India is almost all of your flights are gonna arrive in the middle of the night. so that's one thing you're gonna have to experience immediately. So you're gonna have all the mosquitoes ready to bite you, and if you're blessed, then you have somebody that's gonna help you that first time, at least, by meeting you at the airport and helping take you somewhere. And we were really, blessed in our experience to have that done. I think some of the, first memories that I have in India, this is really sad, it's been a while now, had to do with just getting stomach bugs and learning how to interact with people. And, a lot of the cultural things that come, with that. I guess it was our first year, For Eid, we had a bunch of people who invited us over and we were still, we hadn't been on the field all that long at that time, and you know, every few months we'd have a stomach bug or something that would hit us. And so, I think for me now, years down the road, Eid still often unfortunately, by the end of several meals, my stomach is just not doing so well. But I remember specifically, this guy. He was my language nurturer. I'd only known him for a few months. He was real excited to invite me to his house for Eid. I went there and, he's talking about his mom's ani and I was excited to eat it, but I'd already had, a number of meals that day and I just was not feeling good. And, he comes, he serves me, the food, I'm talking with him. my language isn't all that great yet, so we're kind of just mix matching back and forth and I'm trying to impress him and then all of a sudden I can just feel my stomach on. And I knew I was gonna throw up. I just, I knew it was gonna happen. Oh no. And so I run to go to the bathroom and, he had another family member who was in there. And this is not a big house. this have those sinks that are right outside of the bathrooms that you can wash your hands. And I looked for, you know, a trash can for a second, and there wasn't one. And then I just threw up in the sink right there. And as I'm doing that, I'm turning to see, how high is my shame. And I look and I could see him just peering around the doorway at me as this is happening. but you know. People here have so much grace and God has so much love, and that did not ruin our relationship. I went right back in and kept talking with him and more, of his mom's ani and, ended up being a very good experience. But that was only a few months after we had landed, and it really is reminiscent of kind of our experience at that time. Just new experiences, new things happening, even our bodies adjusting to this new environment. as things are heating up and as we're eating new foods that are spicier than we're used to. And, maybe there's just not the hygiene that we're used to. And so just adjusting to all that, it really is just, yeah. a lot of people we know that, do come to end day, even for a few weeks, do get sick or The heat really bothers them. And I, I could say years down the road, some of that stuff you really get accustomed to. And the heat doesn't bother us now as much. It's still hot, but not as hot as it used to feel, so.

Matt 15:39

Yeah. Thanks. That was a great story. It does remind me of many similar incidents for me in India and Pakistan and different places, especially when I was young and first out traveling in India as an 18-year-old. yeah, I've had some of those shame moments in the mountains just outside the house and you think, oh no, there's nowhere else I'm stuck here. But yeah, that's one of the things, if you've lived and worked in South Asia, isn't it, we've all got some stories around that. What were some of the initial joys of being out there, living there, it was team, whether it was local culture or, purposefulness. Yeah. What were some of the highlights?

Speaker 3 16:16

Yeah, so when we first landed, we were working, as assistant managers of a language center, for new workers come to learn local languages, from locals and then, you know, go to do whatever they're there to do. And really it was just amazing seeing there. I mean, there were quite a few teachers, and there was a steady stream of students coming through who, you know, were all very new to India, but they all loved the Lord. and they want to share with those teachers. And just by the time we were even a few months in seeing this really sweet, like interfaith community that was built, as people were having teachers over to their homes and they were going over to their teachers' homes and we were having celebrations in the center for various holidays and everyone was just rejoicing together. Just seeing people come together, like Muslims and Christians that are able to love one another and rejoice with one another and learn each other's faiths stories, and really engage deeply and ask good questions and listen respectfully and share with each other. That was just a really beautiful thing to see. I remember one, office, Christmas party, we had even, I think it was probably the first year. So without telling any of our teachers ahead of time, our boss, the American lady who was running the language center at that time asked, two of our teachers impromptu, both of these are Muslim Indian ladies, asked them at the office, Christmas party to stand up and tell us the Christmas story. And both of them, I mean, they got up and they told it with aplomb and absolutely nailed every single detail. Like they knew all the names of the angels and the villages and Zacharia and Elizabeth and all of the little details of everything. and they were just so excited to be sharing it too. And that was just amazing because, you know, they learned these stories from doing language lessons with incoming workers, who are like listening to these stories together with them in their own language. So it was just beautiful to see how, those stories from the word had just soaked into their hearts and how we were all able to like celebrate that together in this really sweet community context there.

Matt 18:22

Yeah. Wow, that's really cool. And in that, you're in a mega city and there are many, many of those in India. In that part of the city where you're living, is it quite a high proportion of Muslims and would they know a lot of Christian people themselves or would you guys as foreigners be some of the first they've ever really interacted with?

Sebastian and Sandy 18:42

I'm gonna say it depends a little bit. So to answer the first question, we live in a very Muslim part of the city. it's not. All just, cohesive throughout. Instead, you have neighborhoods that are predominantly Muslim, and then you have areas that are predominantly Hindu in this place. and culturally even, they're very different. The foods that they have are different. And if you're looking for, halal butchers, it's gonna be different. So there's a lot of different, a experience. Even when we talk to people that are working with Hindus is very different. they'll have completely different experiences that they've had or they'll know a lot of things that we step back and go, wow, we've been here and we don't know anything about Hinduism or how Hindus live because that's not been our, context, for so long. but to answer your second question there, it really just depends. A lot of it's gonna come down, I think, to class and how wealthy somebody is. if they're more wealthy, if they speak English, maybe they've gone to a Catholic school or been exposed to Christianity. And through some, means like that, particularly in a big mega city, then it's possible that they have heard, some part of the gospel. But when it comes to the poor and people that are not gonna speak English, then very few of them are gonna know very much, and even, I would say even the people that are more wealthy, or even if they've gone to, like a school where they learned a little bit of something, they've not heard it in a way that is within their context even. So they're not really understanding it, being able to grasp it in a, cohesive way. and so I would say the percentage is very small.

Matt 20:11

And what's their perception of. Christians generally, I mean you guys are outsider Christians from the west, maybe they aren't interacting with local Christians, so maybe they don't have negative or positive feelings, but obviously they pick things up on media. Do they just see themselves as very different? Very proud of their Muslim faith and background? And again, I know this does depend on who we're talking about, but is there an overall feeling of welcome to you guys and, oh, we've got a lot in common and we're both minorities in this country or is it more no, you are very different to us. You guys are like the Hindus, you worship three gods or something like that.

Speaker 3 20:46

We've gotten a little bit of both over the years. I would say it tends more towards welcoming for sure. yeah, just because of the political situation in India, it does tend to kind of bind Muslim Muslims and Christians together more as like, Hey, we're all the monotheists together and we're the religious minorities that the religious majorities does not like that much. So it depends a lot also on the believers that Muslims have had contact with. I mean, we live, 300 meters away from a large facility that has a Christian background that is well known for its philanthropic work. And people respect that and they recognize the workers when they see them walking around. and they understand that's something that Christians do and they appreciate it. But then you have the view of the West also through the lens of Western media largely that, every Hollywood movie is showing Westerners, who they assume to be Christians doing all kinds of very bad things. and so they assume that is typical of what people do there. yeah, we don't really present ourselves in a way where we're trying to line up with like Western Christianity a lot. we are. People who follow Isa al Masih and we read the Holy Books and we pray and we will pray for you if you need something prayed for. and we definitely do not worship three Gods and we want to talk to you and hear more about, how do you see these things and how can we love you where you're at? and generally we've had a very positive perception to that. there's people who still want to argue with us and, read us the standard 1500 year old talking points of interaction between Christians and Muslims. but not usually in a hostile way, more in a, like they want to out of love or whatever motive they want to convert us. and that's just part of the experience as well. And that can be a humbling, you know, as a worker, like you don't want to be approaching people. In a way that makes them feel like you're doing that to them. because when people are doing that to you and you understand how it feels, you can understand, oh, this doesn't feel very nice. It feels like I'm trying to be scored as a point for the other side or something. and that's not a very humanizing way to treat people. so that's not how we try to approach people. We try to approach them in love, in understanding and in wanting to seek the truth together.

Matt 23:00

yeah, that opens lots of questions in my mind. do you find you're interacting with the same kinds of people or is it quite split male and female? I wonder if Sebastian is interacting with. I dunno, more educated people perhaps, or people who get into the, TV apologetics guys for Islam, Dr. Zain Naik. And whether you get into some of those discussions more, and this is a stereotype I know, so correct me if I'm wrong here, but maybe Sandy, you're interacting with more of the ladies and just getting quickly to prayer and felt needs and human experience and that sort of stuff. Or is it just, both of you experience all of that

Sebastian and Sandy 23:38

Yeah.

Speaker 3 23:38

Yeah, I'd say it's a good bit of all of that. Like literally just three nights ago I had a lady on my couch who was going over all the talking points with me, you know, as I was trying to ask her thoughtful questions that kind of got our conversation onto a different course. so there's definitely, especially in our pretty conservative community here, there are ladies who spend a lot of time like investing in their religious education as well. and there are definitely men that do that and there's been that don't also, so you have the full spectrum, We have a city of millions of people and they are truly all individuals. Like you can put them into groups, but even within those groups, there's a lot of variation.

Sebastian and Sandy 24:13

Yeah. And I would say it's worth noting that even in our city, there are Muslims from different backgrounds, so different ethnicities that speak different languages, as well as different socioeconomic, background. So based on what their job is, where they're working, if it's a government job, a private sector, and based on those things, you're gonna see very different people. And even within that specific arena, you're gonna see different people. So it's really not one way or the other. I've definitely talked to some Muslim men that are very. you can just tell they're very peace minded when it comes to listening and hearing the gospel. And, maybe they're interested in wanting to read the scriptures, to some extent with me. And then there's other people they firmly know what they believe and, I can stand by that. So they're very firmly understand what they believe and they're just not really open to wanting to learn anything else. and so those are very different, you know, it's very different experiences for me even. and I can be in a taxi and talking to different people and I'll have one of those one day and the next day I'll have another guy. And so I was, talking to a guy. Just last week. And I could just tell he was a person of peace, in the way that he was talking, but he also didn't really want to hear anything that I had to say. He really just wanted to kind of convince me. and so we had a good time together, but unfortunately it didn't really go beyond that.

Matt 25:32

Yeah. Thanks. That's interesting. Yeah, I totally agree with you. We have to be good listeners, and interact with people as individuals, as well as part of a society or many different societies and mini cultures and so on. Yeah, very, very true. I'm just wondering, how has the crisis in the Middle East affected any of your Muslim friends? Obviously, you know, Muslims all around the world feel very upset about Palestine all the time, so that's heightened at the moment. What about the stuff in Iran? I don't know if you live amongst Shia populations there, but generally have you felt people want to talk to you about it or don't want to say anything and what are you getting?

Speaker 3 26:08

Yeah, people definitely would want to talk about it. I'd say, we've had several conversations just within the last few weeks about it. we don't live in a predominantly Shia community. I don't know that I know very many Shia at all here. but even majority Sunni here seem to see the conflict, very much as an anti-Muslim war being perpetrated by the West. and that definitely lines up, you know, with the Palestine issue as well. but it's actually led to some really good conversations because, we can talk to people and say, Hey, this is absolutely like the loss of human life, the warring that's really over resources and not at all over, any concern for people's lives. This is horrible, and this is completely opposite to what Isa al Masih taught. he taught that, the peacemakers will be called the sons of God and even on Eid like visiting, the house of a neighbor that we know, but talking to some people we didn't know. I actually had a really great conversation with some ladies along those lines that started out with the Iran war. so it's definitely something that's perceived very negatively here. but even what's meant for evil, the word can use for good. So we're seeing that.

Matt 27:14

Yeah. Thank you. That's helpful. I suppose although I've lived in South Asia, my context was different because, Pakistani was a majority Muslim country, so it is a bit different where you guys are, in the sense that. They may look at Iran or Saudi or Pakistan, the Muslims in India and think, They've got it. Good. That's an Islamic state or an Islamic Republic or something else. Now of course, there'll be some who question that as well and wonder if it's going well or if that's exactly what Sharia or should look like. But yeah, I'm just trying to get my head around your context. But they haven't really experienced that. I suppose in a smaller sense, they may have some control over Sha, your family law and so on in their communities. But yeah. Any, any thoughts around that?

Sebastian and Sandy 27:55

the area that we live when we first moved into the flat we've been living in now for some time, we were actually the first people in it. We knew it was a Muslim area. We actually had a Muslim background believer who advocated for us to move into the building. Like we had met him before he was connecting us, he was going around the city trying to find a good place for us. And so we were the first people in this building and then we were really blessed. Muslims just moved into the building and we've been here the longest, even now. And so there's a lot of trust that now exist, many years later. and a lot of the people that came in came from areas where that were mixed more with Hindus and Muslims. And then they moved into an area that is much more a Muslim majority. And when they moved in, they became, in some sense, I don't wanna say Sharia, but they came more conservative. They felt more comfortable being able to adjust to their customs and their norms where they were more strangers in the areas they were before. And it's led to some really great conversations

Matt 28:52

Let's get onto some of the toughest things. You've lived there a long time now you've raised kids there and so on, what have been some of the biggest challenges even, beyond some of those early just, ah, yeah. Sicknesses and mosquitoes and so on. I mean, maybe that's an ongoing, continual major problem, but yeah, toughest moments, toughest perhaps team relationships or disappointments with those who've come to Christ or dark seasons.

Speaker 3 29:17

Yeah. I think after 10 years you could just whi a whole gamut of things.

Matt 29:22

yeah, true.

Speaker 3 29:22

But yeah, there have been some really hard years. we had a year and a half period of time where COVID happened. there was a three month long, very strict lockdown. We had to stay in our apartment for three months with our small children at that time, not able to go to a park or outside or anything. and during that time there was a natural disaster in our area as well that very much disrupted infrastructure, for quite a few weeks and killed quite a few people as well. and then, that same year my father died unexpectedly and we had to return to the states, like during the height of the winter wave of COVID. and then our team basically dissolved and then we had a baby during the height of the Delta wave of COVID in India, when all the hospitals were full and oxygen was being sold on the black market and everything. And I was put in an ICU room with a man on a ventilator. even though I had no reason to be in ICU, I was fine. but it was a whole thing. So there have been some rough years, but, I feel like those times are some of the times the Lord has used to grow us the most, and to keep us the most dependent on him. And all of that's really just, uncontrollable circumstance. Like things outside of, interpersonal things, really. there have been hard things with local believers as well, and with people that we've been sharing with that we hoped would become believers. even last night we had a local friend sleeping at our place who called us at 11:00 PM and needed a place to stay, because there was a domestic dispute in her home, and a relationship that we've really been pouring into for a long time. and so it's hard to see things like that, but we live out the crucifixion of the Lord. In order to image his resurrection in these places. there's a reason that he said if anyone would follow me, he must take up his cross. And all of these things are part of the cross here, but they're also, part of the breaking of the jars of clay that hold the treasures. making it clear to those around us that it's not us that's strong. It's not us coming from outside with our great wisdom and wealth or whatever and showing everybody how it's done. we're messed up broken humans like everyone else and it's only his strength in us that enables us to do anything at all. So yeah, there's been a lot of hardships, but really we have seen the Lord redeem so much of it and what we haven't seen redeemed yet. We have faith that he will one day.

Matt 31:41

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. I'll just come to you in a second, Sebastian. Let me just pause on that for a moment. Yeah, really good word about jars of clay. I can't imagine how tough those COVID years were for you. I know others in India who, yeah, that was too much, with young kids and yeah, that was the end of it for them. and maybe later I'll ask you a bit more about, how the Lord has helped you persevere. But in the midst of the jars of clay thing, I wonder if your local friends slightly have looked upon you as outsiders from wealthy nations and so on, and those really tough seasons, years in your life have humanized you more and brought you closer to them in the sense that they also have daily struggles and annual struggles of, just we can't do what we want to do. We don't have the income or we don't have the control in this society, the connections that get us what we need. Do you feel it actually deepens some of your closest friendships?

Sebastian and Sandy 32:37

Yeah, so after that incident last night, the lady called, Sandy and I, actually went over to the house, because she was just scared, with what was happening. And so I went over there and then when I have assessed the situation, I actually called her to come and just pick up the lady and walk back to our place. 'cause they don't live very far from us. and then I spent, until 2:00 AM almost, Talking with a guy, sharing with him, just listening to him for a while and trying to kind of get him back on track. 'cause he was just so angry and so frustrated. but we've known them for a long time and really invested in their marriage. we knew the lady before, before they were even married. And that level of just investing in them and really caring about them helps. And then, after last night ended, even going into today, I just sent some scriptures his way. and then some suggestions and just some thoughts that God was really sharing and putting in my heart this morning. And, just because we have that foundation and relationship that exists, that it's gonna hit a lot harder for him. that we have invested in them. We've been by them. I love both of them. I love the guy, even though I, don't agree with some of the things that are happening right now. and the way that I just feel like Satan's twisting on his heart. but even when it comes to more of our neighbors and friends that we've known for a long time now. one thing we've said, about COVID is how it brought together our community in ways that we did not expect. so it was a really strict lockdown and, everybody was supposed to stay in their houses, and not go anywhere. But to be perfectly honest, after the first week, most people were at least going into their neighbor's houses or on the roof for two months. You weren't really supposed to go anywhere. And, we just went in the alleyway and our kids would play and we got to experience a lot of neighbors. We. Never really got to experience before 'cause they were off working or they're at school or these places. And so we got to know them and love on them and understand them and learn more about their culture. And now when things happen in our neighborhood or in our, you know, direct community and our building, even people know us a lot better and they trust us. we're very flawed ourselves, they can see that there's something different about us.

Matt 34:46

What do you actually do? Or what What's your identity there? What's your work day to.

Sebastian and Sandy 34:50

Yeah. So another thing for us is that, I have a legitimate job. I'm a consultant and I work for a few different firms actually at this time. and so, you know, every morning I legitimately am going to my workplace along with all the other guys from our buildings who are also getting on their motorcycles and doing the same thing. And so that kind of identity we found that's really helpful. we're not trying to be deceptive. This is just who we are. We are working and we are in our community. And, we do want to talk to people about spiritual things. If they're interested and if they're not interested, then, that's okay. We will talk with other people. but we have found that having an identity that is as authentic as possible is really helpful to what we're doing.

Matt 35:32

And when you were. Doing those two years of working with refugees in the states, you are obviously working with the poor and the brokenhearted, the displaced, the immigrant and so on. Is that something that's transferred into working in the mega city as well as working at a normal job?

Speaker 3 35:49

Yeah, I'd definitely say so. even just beginning of familiarity that it gave us with the South Asian family structure and how that operates really as a resource system, you know, that people use when they're in poverty, leaning on their family and yeah, just seeing how South Asian culture, thinks about family and about wealth was like a really valuable experience to already have like an inkling of that coming into here. so much directly with the poor, but we encounter the poor a lot in our city. Like is just part of life. we live right on the edge of an urban slum. and we have people, just about every day there'll be someone that's knocking on our door and asking, for 50 rupees or a hundred rupees because their child is sick or somebody died and they have to pay for the funeral, or, any number of things. and so I think the ways that we deal with that here are much different than the ways that we dealt with that in the us. In the US it was more, okay, let me give you concrete help. Like I can help you navigate the medical system. I can help you, I can drive you to, the government benefits office and help you like, fill out the forms. here it's more like, okay, well here's a hundred Rupees and let me sit down with you on the stairs or on the sofa if you'll come into my apartment, which not everybody will. and let's pray for this problem that you're having together. and just talking to people as a human being to like. A lot of street beggars here, even when people give them things, which sometimes we do, sometimes we don't, depending on discernment, but just, making eye contact and interacting with them as a human being is something that is fairly rare here. Even people who are giving to them are often giving to them out of kind of a karmic mindset of, I'm giving to you in order to get better karma for myself. it's not about, the dignity of the person who's receiving it. so yeah, I would say that our experience in the US definitely weighed some foundations, but there was a lot more work that had to be done to build on those, to learn how to begin interacting with the poor in this environment. I won't say we're done learning. I don't think we ever will be.

Matt 37:47

Yeah, that's really helpful. Yeah, it's a big challenge in a society like that with. Lots of levels of class or caste, and it's very complex, isn't it, trying to navigate that. so give us some other examples of how Kingdom mindset, gospel principles impact your impact interactions with people or with a certain person that you've walked with.

Speaker 3 38:08

yeah, I think as far as kingdom principles for dealing with people, there are a lot of negatives that we have to unlearn about our American culture when we come in here as Americans. But I think one of the positives that has served us really well is the American emphasis on equality. in some ways you have to unlearn that because you do have to understand, you know, what's going on around you in the different levels. But just having the default option, the default setting of we're going to treat people as equals unless, there's some wildly exigent circumstance, has been something that I think is kind of shocking to people around us in a lot of ways. we have a couple of house helpers who come, like one who helps us clean in the mornings, one who stays with our youngest child, while I homeschool the older ones. And I sit down with them and I ask them about their lives and talk to them as people. And that doesn't seem like any big thing to me to do, you know, that's just how you talk to a person. But I've heard stories from a lot of people who have worked as house helpers about Yeah. People who have treated them wildly differently than that. even when we were, in the original language school setting that we were in, one of our teachers there. Just during the first few months that we were there, she, was mostly working with believers through the center and they were, sharing with her from the word and listening to stories about her wife and all of these things. And she took on one client from outside the center that she just found randomly, some lady from somewhere in southern Europe. And, this lady was not a believer. And within a week our teacher was coming to us and saying, you people who follow Jesus are very different from the Westerners who don't. just because her experience with this other lady was very different. Apparently she was using, you know, at course language and smoked and there may have been some other substances involved there too. I don't know. but it was enough to really make an impression on our Muslim teacher that, okay, all westerners are not like the ones who follow Jesus. That's the ones I've seen, but that's not what everybody's like. and it is. Jesus who makes the difference.

Matt 40:10

Yeah. And on that point, that's a challenge for us always, isn't it overseas? How do we communicate that this is not because I'm Western or British or American, this is actually a gospel principle that's deep in my life and maybe in my culture, but how do you sort of lead things to Jesus when people are so into politics and war and all that sort of stuff?

Sebastian and Sandy 40:29

honestly people really want to talk about spiritual things, they come up so quickly. And, we'll use really basic things. Even like I, I'll start talking about the weather with people and try to lead it into, just basics of the gospel or, I like to ask people what their name is and what it means. And based off of that, I'll start saying, oh, that's really interesting. I like that. and then I'll try to go into the scriptures a little bit, with it. And, you really can tell just. Kind of where people are at with things, if they're interested or not interested. And, it's really disappointing sometimes. I said previously that, I'll be talking to somebody and they'll just start, wanting to force something on me. And that's really disappointing. 'cause I want to share with them as well. I wanna hear what they have to say, but I also want to be able to share. And, so it's very difficult in that sense.

Speaker 3 41:16

Yeah, but sometimes I think it's just, A lot of times people hear, especially women, don't really have someone to listen to them in a deep way. part of the language method that we've used, with the language center, GPA, the growing participator approach, one of the later phases of learning involves. Going around and basically asking people if they're willing to tell you their life story, however long or short they may want to make it while you record that. and then listen back to it either with them or with a separate language teacher with their permission, so that you can pick out the parts you don't understand and understand them. And just in doing that exercise with local women, I have seen so many, like, I've had people tell me things that they've never told anybody else before, while a recorder is on, nonetheless. just because they're not used to having someone listen and ask questions and really care about them as a person, as the image of God. and yeah, just being willing to be that listening ear that looks at them like with the eyes of Jesus and sees that image of God in them and prays for them in their difficulty and, you know, offers them a word of scripture that speaks to that difficulty, but isn't trying to, cram a whole system down their throats at once or anything. I found that that's really valuable, especially with women. yeah, there was one lady when we were first learning Urdu, I sat down with her and we had like a, I think a two hour language class booked that day and I said, tell me your life story. Go and hit the button. And three and a half hours later we were still there and we had not stopped. and the recording was still going and she was crying and I knew every detail of her life. but it was just a really sweet, sacred time with her. and outside of going around asking people their whole life story, you don't always get that kind of, context. but just being willing to go to those doubles with people has really spoken to them and opens a door, to speak the love of Jesus into their life.

Matt 43:08

That's powerful. Are there believers around you from a Muslim background?

Sebastian and Sandy 43:12

There are. so we really attribute that to, only starting about the 1980s. There was a, guy from YWAM that came into, our area and he came in a very contextualized way where he just loved on Muslims and talked with them. They got married, his whole family stayed for, a few decades even, working in a contextual setting. And if I run into an MBB leader today, it almost always goes back to that man. Like they'll mention him by name. And I heard his name over and over again, and I actually got to meet him last May for the first time. Wow. Him and his whole family. and so that was a really, really big privilege. but from before the 1980s, there were believers, but it would've been just like one here, one there really being extracted from their community, through education or through going to the United States or something along those lines. But since then, we're seeing, very slowly seeing, but seems like almost every year something new is happening where there are local communities of Muslim believers that are now meeting in Jamaats. we know of one that is meeting even in a madrasa, like an Islamic school, in an area not too far outside of our city. but I would say within kind of our, the area of India that we're here in, there's probably several thousand people from a Muslim background that now exist, today, and I would say before the 1980s. That number was microscopic, at that time. And so, and it's really encouraging. A lot of these Muslim background believers now are getting more and more just confidence and encouragement. It's still very easy for them to get sucked into Christian ministries and ministries that are focused on Hindus. A number of them will go to seminary somewhere at some point if they're, if they feel like they're called to ministry and they really catch that fire. Unfortunately, a lot of them end up, going to seminary and then really just catching a fire to work with the Christian Church or work in Hindu ministries. 'cause there's just not a lot of, Muslim ministries. but I really do believe that increasingly we're starting to see Muslims that are wanting to reach their own communities and even going back to the villages that they're from, within the area that we live.

Matt 45:22

that's wonderful. Wow. Praise God. I wonder how many. Muslims are sort of just through the internet as well, starting to watch online apologetics and see Christian perspectives when, 30, 40 years ago, all they would've heard would be the Islamic arguments unless somehow they met a worker. but yeah, I guess we'll probably not know the answer to that question

Speaker 3 45:41

one day in. Yeah,

Matt 45:44

absolutely. Good. Guys, any other highs or lows or just stories you want to share with us as we come to a close?

Sebastian and Sandy 45:52

I did wanna share one more story though, just about how, that God can move in people. So there's, you can have every plan, you can prepare as much as you want and come here and you're not gonna see, necessarily see what you wanna see if God is not already preparing the ground. And then even if you're the least equipped person or your language is the worst, God can really use that. one of the really strong, Muslim background believers that we know, I mean, he's from a, village that is. In a minority area. Even so, he speaks a language that has no written gospel. And many years ago, a short term pastor came through his village in English openly, asking if anybody wanted to know more about Jesus, in this Muslim village, a hundred Muslim. And he just says he felt like he should talk to the guy. And so, I mean, they exchanged numbers with each other and through WhatsApp started talking that our friend didn't know English. he just heard a few words and understand a few things and, really learned English through this process. and his heart, God. On his heart and softened it, and he learned more and more. And then when he was ready, this pastor actually flew back to India and baptized him here.

Speaker 3 47:10

Wow.

Sebastian and Sandy 47:10

And then, many years after this, this guy gets married, he's sharing with his wife every day that the scriptures are not in her language either. And so he, he's translating from, one language to another daily doing a bible study with her in her language. And she becomes a believer and the pastor comes back and baptizes the wife as well. And so there are just, God can use anything and he can use short-term trips, he can use long-term trips he can use. we wanna try to be in the heart language as much as possible, but God can use any language, in any method, in any way. because God has a big plan and knows what he wants to do with this place.

Speaker 3 47:50

Working outside of like the. Conscious efforts of workers a lot too. I mean, I would say plus of the Muslim background believers we know have some kind of dream vision or miracle that is part of their story of coming to know the Lord. and really it might be almost a hundred percent, like we've known so many people who have had dreams of Jesus coming to them and speaking something significant to them in a dream or vision, or who have decided that they are going to pray namaz in the name of Jesus and then suddenly their prayers start getting answered or they even hear a voice speaking to them out loud. Like those are all experiences we've directly heard from people that we know. and that is something that really breaks down barriers that I don't think any human being could break down like the Lord is. This is the time for the Muslim world harvest to come in and he is. Planting the seeds himself and then sending out his workers to go and reap the harvest. so it's been really beautiful just to see how directly involved he is in doing that. and it helps remind us too, you know, this is not like something we do from our effort. It's his work and he will see it through.

Matt 49:00

No, I love that. Yeah. Sometimes we talk about power encounters, truth encounters and love encounters. and everything about your story so far is encapsulating, some of those elements, which is great. Yeah. Go on. Sebastian, tell us a fire story.

Sebastian and Sandy 49:15

You a fire story.

Matt 49:18

yeah, one of your crazy stories where fire was not expected.

Sebastian and Sandy 49:22

That's happened many times actually. when I first started writing down a bunch of stories, I was trying to come up with some funny ones and I got on the topic of electricity, and I couldn't seem to get off the topic of electricity for a while. It's just something that in the west you take for granted and it's there and you don't have any problems with it. Hmm. And then you come over here and goodness gracious, you're in the shower, you touch the faucet and you're being electrocuted. I mean, you're not expecting that kind of thing. just a few weeks ago, we wake up in the morning and we touch our microwave and it shocks us. And then we touch our oven and it shocks us. And we start the refrigerator. The refrigerator, and it shocks us. And we go, something bad has happened. And so we do call an electrician and he comes and our grounding wire had gotten disconnected and so nothing in our house was grounded anymore. and yeah, it was very dangerous. everything is just, electrocuting you,

Speaker 3 50:17

the only thing about India is that that electrician came within 45 minutes and we paid him $4 and he fixed it.

Matt 50:23

yeah, that's so true. The transformers blow and people cut your wire and borrow it for their apartment. And there are so many electricity things we I've taken guests in Pakistan to a place and oh yeah, they just need a heater to boil up some water for a shower. And they literally give them something that has two loose wires and they have to shove it into the wall. And they're saying, is this safe? I'm like, well, it's probably okay if the hotel landlord just gave it to you.

Sebastian and Sandy 50:48

I knew things were different within the first month when we had an electrician come to our house. He had an apprentice with him. His apprentice was probably like 12 years old, and they did not flip the breakers when they started working on our electrical sockets. we've had a lot of electricians come and I don't know if very many of them have ever flipped the breakers when they're even like, unscrewing things from the wall, pulling out the wires. and all I learned in the United States about electricity killing you, I'm gonna be cautious, but I've seen little kids handling wires that are, you know.

Speaker 3 51:18

The power lines across from our apartment, catch fire on schedule about every three months you can expect the power lines to be on fire and they'll melt and they'll drip all over the cars parked underneath and the owners will get very angry and then they will go and wrap the whole thing up in electrical tape and then three months later it will catch on fire again. And this cycle repeats.

Matt 51:37

oh boy. Well the Lord keep you guys from anything serious happening in that regard. But yeah, there is, something isn't there about living in places like that where you have to laugh because if you take it all too seriously and overthink with the real dangers here, you probably wouldn't live there much longer.

Speaker 3 51:53

It's very true.

Sebastian and Sandy 51:54

And I mean, you learn also that it's not just you dealing with it, the whole community you're with is experiencing it. when I talk about like stomach bugs that people have. You know, when I was in the West, this was a lie that I had in my mind. I used to think, oh, people in countries that don't have clean water, their bodies adjust to it. But people here, they're sick all the time. They have stomach bugs if they don't have access to clean water, it's your body can adjust to some extent, but you know, Giardia, it's still a nasty bug that's gonna affect, you know, locals as well as, foreigners. And so we see that all the time as well. So the heat, our kids will get heat rashes if the power's out a long time and fans aren't running and we don't have access to ac kids here as well. they have a lot of trouble with the heat like that. every summer when it's really, really hot and electricity's that going out a lot, there are people in our community that pass away, the elderly that will have heart attacks and strokes. And so that is, that is a real thing that is affecting people here.

Speaker 3 52:54

But the shared suffering does kind of pull the community together. I mean, everybody pools the resources they have and if you're in a different electricity block than your friend that you know, and yours hasn't gone out, you call them over to your house and they come hang out with you under your fan until theirs comes back on. Yeah. so we're all in this together and it's a shared experience.

Matt 53:14

Yeah. Good point. Uh, I remember those days of walking into a room and positioning yourself as close to under the fan as you can. guys, this has been so good. Thank you. You're really good at, painting a picture you're really good at. Yeah. The stories that show us what life is like out there, and I'm sure you have a hundred more, but our time is up. Thank you for Sharing with us. Thank you for this time together that we've had, and I know our listeners will have enjoyed it very much.

Speaker 3 53:38

Thank you so much for having us. It's been an honor.

Sebastian and Sandy 53:40

Yeah. Thanks for

Matt 53:41

having us. Yeah, And we'll pray for you as well, ongoing from here. You know, just that those relationships will continue, that the gospel will continue to go forth to people who've never heard it. and that you'll find your place sometimes discipling, sometimes sowing seeds and just raising your kids and going to work like we all do around the world. Yeah. Bless you guys. Thanks so much.

Speaker 2 54:01

Thanks so much for joining us today, guys. Do get in touch if you want to share how God is speaking to you through the podcast or if you want to partner with us in any way, raising up more workers for the harvest. You can email me personally, matt@frontiers.org.uk. And let's finish with a quote from Hudson Taylor I thought to myself, when I get out to China, I shall have no claim on anyone for anything. My only claim will be on God. How important, therefore, to learn before leaving England to move man through God by prayer alone. Have a great week and do join us next time to hear from more ordinary people serving our extraordinary God in some of the toughest parts of the world