Death With Dignity Podcast

New York’s Monumental Bill - Episode 25 with Mandi Zucker

• Andrew Flack • Season 1 • Episode 25

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Following our previous episode on the landscape of medical aid in dying laws in California and across the U.S, we now have great news to share: MAID has the potential to pass in two separate states, New York and Illinois.

Our guest, Mandi Zucker, executive director of End-of-Life Choices NY, joins us to talk about what this bill could mean for patients, the current political landscape (Zohran Mamdani’s support of MAID, Gov. Kathy Hocul’s decision), and her background in grief support and end of life care.

Tune in as we explore this pivotal moment for dignity and choice.

This conversation was recorded just one day before the 3rd anniversary of his passing. His legacy continues to inspire our work. 


CHAPTERS:

0:00 Remembering Andrew And Big News

 1:16 Meet Mandi Zucker And Media Advocacy

 3:44 From Schools To Hospice To Purpose

 7:45 Why Aid In Dying Found A Champion

 12:45 The New York Bill’s Path And Safeguards

 18:40 Politics, Choice, And Misconceptions

 24:40 Access, Residency, And Equity

 29:20 Faith, Opposition, And Public Support

 33:20 U.S. Versus Canada: Slippery Slope Myths

 38:00 Grief Work With Children And Families

 44:00 Language, Culture, And Honest Conversations

 49:20 Implementing The Law And Infrastructure

 55:20 Staying Motivated And Community Strength

 1:05:00 Final Appeal And Ways To Help

Hasban Shaikh:

Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Death with Dignity Podcast. This podcast recorded one day before the three-year anniversary of Andrew's passing. We missed you, Andrew. You've left quite the legacy, and we're grateful that you were a part of our lives. We also have some great news to share. Medical aid in dying has the potential to pass in two major states, New York and Illinois. In New York, it sits on Governor Kathy Hookel's desk, and Illinois, the decision is up to Governor J.B. Pritzker. Shout out to those whose advocacy efforts have led us to this point. This includes our very own, Susie Flack, and countless others, such as Deborah Robertson, who the law is actually named after in Illinois. I believe it's called the Deb's Law. The stakes feel high. If the bill passes in New York, then Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York City would all have medical aid in dying. So that's why today's guest, Mandy Zucker, is exactly the person we want to talk to. She's the executive director of End of Life Choices New York. She goes into what her organization aims to achieve with this bill. She kind of gives us an idea of which way Governor Kathy Hokel might also be leaning. And we also spent some time discussing grief and her background with supporting people during the end of life. Let's get into it. Yeah, I was actually just watching your interview on Fox, uh Fox 5 New York. What's interesting is that uh you were actually in um on on the title of the of the piece, you were featured, but Mamdani came on before you.

Mandi Zucker:

Um I know, I saw him walking out as we were walking in.

Hasban Shaikh:

Oh, okay. Have you had any in um interaction with him? Because we've learned that he's actually a sponsor on the bill.

Mandi Zucker:

He is a sponsor on the bill. Um, and if I had a chance to say thank you for sponsoring the bill, I would have, but he was surrounded by you know, a team.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, he's definitely like a mini celebrity now.

Mandi Zucker:

I know.

Hasban Shaikh:

He is whose profile has like really uh arisen, I would say.

Mandi Zucker:

Um it was interesting because I saw that too, that like my you know, piece was sort of highlighted and he had like 15 minutes and I had three minutes, so um I'm sure that uh you know his uh appearance brought more viewers than mine did.

Hasban Shaikh:

Well, yeah, but they but they uh featured you, so that's pretty cool. Um Yeah, that was great. Um you're probably like used to doing media rounds by now, huh? I was like, she probably has some good media trading because I felt like you were on message and you said all the right things.

Mandi Zucker:

Did you? Oh well, I've got a a great PR consultant who's uh making sure I stay on point.

Hasban Shaikh:

Um uh Ross, right? I believe. Yep. Yeah, I thought that was cool. Um it's cool that people still work with PR people. I feel like with the internet and uh just how um how like media works now, um PR is not thought of anymore. Everyone just does it themselves.

Mandi Zucker:

Well, you could, but you don't get interviews on Fox Five like that. They'd have to find me.

Hasban Shaikh:

For sure. Um I I I have to ask, so how did you uh fall fall into this? Um into this role that you're in, you know, being on Fox Five and being a voice for maid in New York.

Mandi Zucker:

Yeah. Um I always say it sort of found me. Um I am a social worker and my my background, my bachelor's degree is in child development. Um I wanted to work with kids. I wanted the thought of working in the field of death and dying did not cross my mind when I was, you know, in school. But I um my very first job out of college was working in a nursing home, not a nursing home, sorry, in a hospital, selling. I always said selling nursing homes. So um basically people would come in, they would have had a stroke, um, and they couldn't go home. So I would help them find a nursing home. It was not my dream job, it was just my very first job. And then I thought I got my dream job. I thought I got a job in a school, which is what I wanted. Um, and as I was leaving, like literally on my last day, somebody I knew that worked in hospice said, you know, we have this children's bereavement program. Do you want to just stay on per diem and do some children's bereavement work? Um so I said, sure. I hated working in the schools. It was paperwork. I barely saw children, and I loved working in the hospice. It just changed the course of my career. I felt like we were really making a difference when we're working with people, um, you know, either at the end of their lives or when they're grieving. They were so grateful for the support, and nobody wanted to be there, but they really felt like, you know, so glad that there was people out there that wanted to support them. And I tried three different schools. I thought maybe it was just the school I was in. It was not, it was just not for me. Um, and then I ended up working in the hospice for about 12 years doing uh bereavement and hospice work, and that's really where I found my passion. Wow, so you actually started working with kids in the field with like it didn't even cross my mind that children could be affected by death or that children could die. Like I thought that only like that only happens to old people. I don't know, you know, my 18-year-old brain wasn't uh, you know, expanded enough to know that unfortunately we're all affected by death and dying.

Hasban Shaikh:

Well, someone in that like organization uh must have uh seen something in you, you know, to put like put you um with you know, kids that are grieving or people that have lost kids. What do you think that was?

Mandi Zucker:

I think I do have an ability to connect to people. I am a um I like to listen to people's stories. I you know, I think of myself as an empath. And I think, you know, when you're really talking about things like death and dying, like what could be more personal? What can what can make you feel more connected to another human being when you're talking about something so intimate? And that's where I think I shine. I think I feel uh the most alive, interestingly, when we talk about uh the things that are really, you know, the most difficult. And often that is death and dying.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, I've thought about that a lot too. Things just become real, and I feel like they become clear in those moments, you know, when people are are grieving or they're going through something and you're speaking to them. It's almost like an honor to be around them and in their space and um be a listener or be, you know, a person that can comfort them, or maybe they can um comfort you in like a weird way, you know, by even yeah, you know, letting you be in their space. Um, I always think of the hospice nurses that were around when um Andrew took the medical aid and dying medication, they were in the room with us, and they were just kind of in the corner, and uh they were like crying with us too, though, and they were just um just so part of that moment, and everyone was like grateful that they were there. They didn't feel like strangers in a room, you know, and uh their ability. I just thought that was like um I hate to use this word, uh, but it was like magical, like the energy that they gave and the comfort that they gave, and that changed my uh view of professions and hospice nurses like after that. Um, but and but like anyways, go on. You started working in like hospice. I I think you said 12 years, like um after that. Then how did medical aid and dying find you, or where did your life take you?

Mandi Zucker:

So um I left the job in hospice because of my husband. His job took him into New York City and we were moving. Um, I was in New Jersey at the time, and we were moving into the city for a couple of years. So I wasn't really looking for a job for those two years because I knew it was going to be a short-term situation, but I did want to stay sort of involved. And I don't even know if Google existed at that point, but somehow on that Wide World Web, I found End of Life Choices New York. Uh, the executive director at the time was David Levin, who continues to be a consultant for us. Um, and he introduced me to it. So I called him and said, you know, do you have any volunteer work? What are you guys doing? Uh, how can I support people at the end of their lives? So he um he allowed me to do some public speaking, talking to basically anybody around New York that would listen to us about um advocating for your end-of-life needs, pain management, what what it means to stop eating and drinking or withdrawing medical treatment if you choose to do that. Medical-aiden dying was clearly not a thing, but it was in the back of our minds, we were starting to think about it. So he introduced me to the topic, which I became a strong proponent of immediately, uh, probably because of my work in hospice, where I saw many, many beautiful, peaceful deaths and occasional deaths that weren't. So even hospice, which I am a strong proponent for, didn't always do what we wanted it to do. And even then, sometimes people would, you know, be waiting for their family members and they'd die 10 minutes before their person got there. And that's awful. You know, that happened to me actually. My dad was in hospice and had a beautiful death, but I left the room for 20 minutes to call my sisters, and that's when he died. And I just wanted to hold his hand when he died so badly, and I wasn't there. I don't know if he would have chosen medical aid in dying or not, but I really wish that we could have planned it so that the people that wanted to be in the room with him could have been. So that's when I became a strong proponent, and I stayed, you know, I volunteered for End of Life Choices New York for those two years. I continued to stay involved with the organization abreast of the things that were happening. I would call on this organization when I was working for other organizations to educate our communities. And then uh the opportunity became available for me to become the executive director and I jumped. Actually, I jumped twice. They didn't hire me the first time. I interviewed probably like six or seven years ago. I didn't get the job. And then I applied again. They uh they called me the second time and said, Can you please apply again? Uh and that time they they realized their first mistake is what I like to say, and then they fixed it.

Hasban Shaikh:

It seems like you, I mean, whether you knew it consciously or not, uh, ever since you got into a bereavement, this was like your path. Um, you know, this is this is what you wanted to do. And I'm sure even like the decision to be like, I want to become the executive director, that's like not just a job thing. That's like a mindset and life choice thing, you know?

Mandi Zucker:

It is. And it's, you know, especially right now because we are on the precipice of passing this bill, it is a tremendous responsibility, um, but also an incredible honor. I mean, I really do feel like if we can get this done for New York, we're not just doing it for New York. We're doing it for the country. First of all, because there's no residency requirement in our bill. So, you know, there's a few states right now that don't have a residency requirement: Vermont, Oregon, and a couple of other states that have very liberal um residency requirements. But New York is going to be the easily the most accessible state. I mean, it is, you know, there's three airports, there's it's a, you know, it's a huge state, there's a ton of resources here. So we know that we will be serving people from around the country. And that is a huge, you know, again, responsibility and honor.

Hasban Shaikh:

So let's talk, yeah, let's talk about uh like New York now. So just to give uh the audience some frame of like reference, New York, just the city of New York, I think, um has a $90 million budget, or yeah, I think $90 billion, I'm sorry, I think. Not million. Um it's just like one of the biggest cities or states, too, obviously. And you're working on the bill in the state, and the bill has passed the state houses and is now on the governor's desk. Uh, do you want to talk about what it took to uh get there and just talk about what's like happening in uh New York?

Mandi Zucker:

Sure. So it's not actually on the governor's desk yet. I'll talk a little bit about that, but um it's been signed through the assembly and the Senate. And it has taken 10 years. Actually, David Levin, the old executive director that introduced me to this organization, initiated uh this bill about I don't even know if it was 1015, it's probably about 10 years ago, um, asking Amy Paulin to be the lead sponsor in the assembly, which she agreed to do and has continued to champion it uh this whole time. So um, so we started back then. We knew it wasn't passing 10 years ago, but we've been working for a very long time. People have been working way longer than I have on this issue to um educate our legislators, to educate the public, uh, to make sure that all of the safeguards that are necessary are in the bill. It is a very safe, clean bill. We know we've done all this research on all of the other states that have a bill like this. So we have the benefit of all of that experience and knowledge that we've put into this bill. And now it's been signed by the Senate and the Assembly. We are waiting to put it on the governor's desk. So she has basically until the end of the year to ask for bills. So once she gets the bill and it's on her desk, then she has 10 days to sign or diveto. So right now she hasn't asked for the bill yet, and we don't want to send it to her when she's not ready to look at it because you know she has other priorities and things that are happening. So we don't want to um send her a bill that she doesn't have time to review. So we're waiting for her, but she has to do it by December 31st.

Hasban Shaikh:

Okay, so is that like a provision or like a this a like a rule?

Mandi Zucker:

I'm just a social worker. I don't not like a politician. I don't know exactly I I know that song about how to make a bill turn into law, but um, I'm not exactly sure. I mean, I've learned so much about all of the politics of this, but I think that's generally the way that it works is that the assembly and the Senate sign, pass bills, then the governor calls for bills, and then they send them to her once she calls for them, and then once she has them, she has 10 days to review, uh, sign or veto.

Hasban Shaikh:

So um what do you what information do you have about um her her like views on this topic and on the bill?

Mandi Zucker:

So she's been pretty quiet, although I don't think that that's unusual. Um I I feel like she will make the right decision. I think she is a strong champion of choice of women's reproductive rights. This medical aid and dying is really just an extenuation of that. And actually, I almost feel like it's the other way around. Like medical aid and dying is even less controversial, in my opinion, than abortion, which I also am a strong supporter of. But um it's literally your own body that you are contemplating hastening death for, and your own body that is already actively dying. So um it's it seems so simple to me to to allow people to make choices about their own body that is literally failing them. Um none of the people that are using medical aid and dying want to die. They all want to live, but they don't have that option. They want to be able to take control and um use their own autonomy to make a decision about where, when, and with whom uh they will be with when they die, which is something that they don't want to do.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, they want to live. I feel like that's the simplest thing that you can like explain to people. They're there, they would do anything to have what you have uh, you know, and not want to do that or you know, take this on. And again, me and like Andrew used to talk about that a lot, and that line has always stayed with me. That's a that's a that's a the difference between someone who's you know depressed or something and wants to like end their life compared to like medical aid and dying. You know, I'll talk to uh I'll I'll explain um medical aid and dying to people and they'll be like, oh, like suicide. I'm like, no, let's stop right there. Um let me explain what it is, and yeah, I think that I think uh that last thing you said um really explains it well. Yeah, I I think it's really interesting how politicians uh don't want to talk about this, like like whether you're progressive on the center, obviously on the right, you definitely don't want to talk about this, but there is support for it. Like Newsom uh made the California provision um permanent. Um there's you know Mamdani's very progressive about stuff, but no one asks him about medical aid and dying. I mean, all the debates, everything you heard, they're asking him about support for other uh countries, but it's like it's like a topic that no one actually wants to talk about, but almost because everybody knows it's important and you just want to hope, you know. Um yeah, like and and and and I think even like pundits online, so I watch a lot of uh political stuff. All they know about is like Canada. I think a lot of people aren't even aware who are in the pundit class or polit or politicians that it's uh it's already available in the largest state in the US, you know. And if New York uh passes it, it'll be New York and California will both have medical aid in dying. I think I can't. I mean, uh that would be like amazing, and it just shows how actually popular this issue is. And we're currently in kind of a more right-wing um, you know, government, if if I can be political for a second. I think um who is it, Neil Gorsett has written a book about how he's like opposed to uh medical aid and dying.

Mandi Zucker:

But even with that, I think And the reality is like can even you know Republican supporters like let me say that differently. Republicans are actually supportive of this bill. It's Republican legislators that are not supportive. So, you know, we've pulled every demographic, and by two to one, every demographic, including Republicans, are supportive of this bill. It's just our Republican legislators that are not supportive of it, which is so interesting because they are supposed to be representing their constituents, but on this issue they are not, and that's very frustrating.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, they talk about 80-20 issues. I feel like this is an 80-20 issue if you talk to somebody in person. You know, if you go online or something like that, I I'm sure it would be there'd be like a lot of noise. But I have just every time I I speak to somebody and you just have a reasonable convo with them, um, they're like, Yeah, that makes sense. You know, I might not agree with this or that, or I might think that this could happen. But I feel like the support for this has been built over years or decades of people actually having to suffer a loss. It's a little sad to think of it this way, but this the support for this for these bills and uh these like issues are built on on the backs of the griefs that people have suffered, and doesn't matter when you're you're left, center, right, when you see an individual go through it and you know that there could have been another way, you know, you convince one person at a time, and I really feel like that's how it's gone. Also, in the state of Illinois, uh, it's also on the a governor's desk. So that would be pretty wild that in the last what three, four years that uh goes from California to New York to like Illinois. I mean, I feel like it's almost countrywide at that point, especially if states like Oregon and New York don't have a residency requirement.

Mandi Zucker:

That's true. Although I do think every state should have this just because it will be available in New York, it's still not accessible to everybody. You know, if you live in even, you know, Massachusetts, it's a big state. So getting to New York can be really difficult and expensive. And, you know, a lot of people can't just afford to travel across, you know, anywhere really, um, find a new residence. You have to be somewhere. You can't, you know, within the law, even in New York, if it passes, you can't just show up in New York, get the medicine, go sit on a park bench and die. You have to have a place to be, and you have to have doctors. And I, you know, it's actually really important that is that it's available in every state. People want to be able to die in their own homes. I spoke to a woman. Um, actually, I didn't speak to her. I spoke to her husband. She went to Oregon to die. She's from New York. She was actually an interior decorator. She built her home from the ground up, like literally brick by brick. I I've seen the pictures. This gorgeous home where she painstakingly picked every picture frame, every, you know, coaster on every single little coffee table, like everything was so thoughtful. Um, and she couldn't die in own her own space. Like she wanted to be in that space that she loved so much, and she had to pick up. And fortunately for her, she had the funds to be able to go to Oregon and find a place to be, but that is not the case for most people, and she didn't want to do that. She was sick, she wanted to stay home and you know, visit with her friends and all the things that we want to do before we die. And traveling across the country to find a bed that you can die in is not high on most people's lists.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, um, it sounds like barbaric to me once we actually start talking about the details of what an individual had to go through, um, like what how they have to change their life. Um, I mean, Andrew went through the same thing. He couldn't go back to his home state of like Illinois and just hang out with his family and um you know go that way. Uh, if he wanted to avail medical aid in dying, he had to stay in California. Again, he was fortunate enough where it like worked out for him and he was in a place where his family could come stay with him. But man, that's a really awful choice. Um you know, and I think again, we uh we are a society that really doesn't want to talk about death and even you know um like discuss it, but until you know somebody, and even though it happens for everybody, it just seems like uh this kind of stuff is not in the public consciousness. Um, I also want to ask you about so one of the things with Governor Hokel, it seems like, um, that may make her sway to the other side is that she is uh she describes herself as a devout Catholic, I think. And one of the one of the one of the groups that is opposed to this in every state, it's like the same battle in every state, is the Catholic Church. Um and I'm sure that they have a lot of power in New York, I mean her being a governor and and all. What do you think about um their role in all of this? And have you spoken to like the opposition like members? What do they say to you?

Mandi Zucker:

Yeah, so first of all, again, sort of like I said about Republicans, Catholics support this bill, um, just like they support abortion. So I wish again that the Catholic Church would listen to their own constituents, but I'm not Catholic, so I don't understand too much of that. But but Catholics do definitely support this bill. So that's the first thing. Um Governor Hochel has made it clear she actually, you know, she said very little about this bill, but she did make one comment that when somebody asked about this bill in which way she's leaning, she said something like I'm not going to allow my religion to play a part in politics, and I will make a decision that is right for my constituents in my state. And I so appreciated that comment. And I believe her because she's done that before with things like abortion. So I have no idea how she feels personally about abortion, but she has been a strong proponent of allowing women to make choices about their own bodies politically, and that's the right political decision. So I do hope and expect that she will come to that same conclusion regarding medical aid and dying.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, I I think that the opposition is probably um just talking to her about you know what really trips me out is I was watching your interview, and it's so interesting how successful um medical aid and dying has been in like America. I think you were saying it's it's been around for decades, and we really don't have any uh reports of like abuse. The reports of abuse apparently come from Canada, which has um passed it as well. So no one has any stories from here, but they try to use Canada as an example, and I'm not even sure of how real those stories are actually like actually are. I think I know their program is way more like like like expanded, um, and they we go to the uh a slippery slope fallacy. Um but I feel like yeah, it's just been so successful in the US that um the people that have been behind this, it's you know, it yeah, it's just it's it's just amazing. I mean, what we're really doing right now is not letting poor people have access to this. Absolutely.

Mandi Zucker:

And I would say as far as the coercion and abuse that people talk about, if there is any coercion or abuse, it's exactly the opposite. What it is, is people are coerced not to use medical aid and dying. So we know that of the people that get the drugs that are eligible for medical aid and dying, only about a third of them use it. And not to say that all of them are coerced not to use it, but that is more often the case than people who are coerced into using it. So um they talk about coercion and abuse, but really it's the exact opposite of what they're saying, that people are going to be, they say people are gonna be coerced into taking drugs, and it's exactly the opposite where family members are saying, please give me one more day, you know, don't do this today, then they wait too long and then they're not able to use the drugs. So um there's not a a push to to utilize this option um in a way that you know this slippery slope people talk about.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, first of all, I think the comfort that uh people have just by having like the medicine. I mean, we can't imagine the kind of suffering and pain that people go through who have cancer or some kind of other terminal like illness that's destroying their body. I mean, literally, um, I get a cold sometimes, and I'm like, oh man, I don't feel like doing anything like today. And um, Andrew talked about this a lot, and I I've talked to other people, just that comfort. But even just having the medicine, it's not like people are like, I want to take it. I I I have a bad day, I'm gonna take it. I I always talk about Andrew's stories like he had the medication and he did end up using it, but I feel like he used it almost near the end of his life, anyways. He was in, you know, um his condition was uh deteriorating, and so you know, everyone has a will to live, and uh so people like understand that kind of makes me uh I guess it gets me a little angry.

Mandi Zucker:

Um and the thing about Canada too is like this is the only law that I'm aware of where people compare us to Canada because the United States has tons of laws about lots of things, and every country and sometimes every state has different laws. And I don't know why people are comparing us to Canada because Canada's its own place, it has nothing to do with the laws in the United States, and there's been no slippery slope. Our laws, you know, our bill was modeled after Oregon, which was, you know, enacted 30 years ago. Nothing's really changed. Like people keep saying we're gonna turn into Canada. Their laws are much more liberal. We haven't in 30 years made any real significant changes to these bills. And I see no indication that we will be.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, I haven't heard of any state trying to add like stuff like uh uh Canada to It's been pretty much straightforward. You need to see somebody. Yeah. Um, you have to be mentally sound, and it really you have to have six months or less to live. Um and there's yeah, no one has tried. Yeah, I would say even the progressives in this country have not tried to add like little provisions. Everyone's been on message because they realize how important this is. Um Yeah.

Mandi Zucker:

I mean, that's the big difference between the United States and Canada is the six-month provision. So in the United States, every single state has a six-month provision. Canada doesn't have that. Their eligibility requirement is not about prognosis, it's about quality of life. Um, it's I think it's called um interminable suffering. Um something like that. That is not the requirement that we have in the United States. In any state, I I am not aware of any um legislation that's been put forth to change that requirement. Uh, no one's trying to do that.

Hasban Shaikh:

For sure. Um Yeah. I'm I'm I'm really hoping that, and I'm surprised. I really hope that like Mamdani gets asked about this or something. Um, you know, because I really think one of the things that can convince Hokel, or maybe she's she's already leaning this way, is well, she's gonna have some challengers, she's gonna have challengers from the right as well. I think she's kind of worried about her job, and uh, she got booed at like a Mamdani like rally, I think, or something. Um, so I think she understands that uh, you know, she needs to make decisions that are more populist. And I'm hoping that somebody asked Mamdani about this soon.

Mandi Zucker:

And uh I mean I should have I should have screamed to him on my path when you have to be in the hallway.

Hasban Shaikh:

It it you know the amount of suffering that's on the line is so immense that it it it it does like blow my mind that nobody is like, hey, what about this one issue, you know, or they didn't even try to attack him for this, like you know, yeah. It's it's it's what's also interesting is this is not an attack uh a vector for the right, even. Like I said, no one wants to talk about this issue pro or con. Um but yeah, uh switching from the bill, one of the things I I I really was interested in was your uh work on grief. Um you know, grief is such a uh like a powerful topic. I feel like people don't know how to like uh navigate it, and it seems like you've spent a lot of time talking to people of all ages um after they've lost someone and they're going through this um pro process. Um could you speak to that a little bit?

Mandi Zucker:

Yeah, I mean again, that's how I got into this. Um, you know, the hospice had said we have this children's bereavement program, so it was kids who had lost either a parent or a grandparent. Um and like I said, I wanted to work with kids, but working in the schools, I didn't actually have a lot of opportunity to work with children. And working in a children's bereavement program gave me an incredible opportunity to work with children and their families to provide them with really, I mean, I personally feel like grief is because it's so universal and yet also so personal. You know, we all experience it, but when we're going through it, it feels like no one has possibly ever gone through something like what we're going through. And the reality is both of those things are right because it's so personal and individual. No one has gone through the grief that you've gone through or that I've gone through, but we've all gone through it, right? Um, so it is a very common experience, but it is so incredibly personal and connecting on that level, I have found to be so powerful and healing, not just for people that I'm supporting, but also for myself. Frequently, I people don't know that about me because when I'm supporting them, I don't talk too much about my own experiences. But when I'm saying goodbye to people, I usually say something like, you know, I I hope you don't know how much you've also impacted my life. Um, and I don't tell them how, but I just tell them that they have. And I say that because I mean it. It's uh it's a very lonely experience, you know, it just feels so lonely, and yet it shouldn't, because we have all gone through it. So being in community with other people who have gone through really difficult things, and I typically am talking about death and dying, but uh it doesn't have to be, right? We grieve many, many things, relationships and financial losses and all sorts of things. So that experience really unites so many of us, and that has been a powerful thread throughout my career of working with uh children and families. And it's amazing how much even kids are able to connect to those feelings, especially when they know that there are other kids uh, you know, who've gone through this. I I tell this story that I I worked at a children's bereavement center for many years, and we would meet at like six o'clock or six fifteen, and they would have a pizza dinner first. So all these kids and parents, and you know, they would meet in this big room and we would have pizza, and then they'd go into their sort of support groups for people their own ages or sometimes based on the relationships. But there was this, I'm sure you've seen them now, but at the time it was like new. I had never seen it. There's like these enormous Connect 4s, you know, the game connect four, but it's like really big. You'll see them at playgrounds now. Um, so we had one in this like pizza room, and these two little kids who had never met started playing Connect Four. So they're standing, you know, facing each other playing Connect 4. And I'm just kind of standing around and I overhear one say to the other one, Who'd you lost? And the kid said, What? He goes, Who'd you lost? And he says, I lost my uncle, who'd you lost? And I said, I lost my mom. And then they were like, Oh, and then they kept playing. And I thought that would never happen on a school playground. Like, they're not gonna feel comfortable enough to talk about something like that, uh, playing kickball or even the same game on their playground, right? But they knew here everybody was like here to talk about the person that died, and it just made it feel so safe. That was like so powerful to me. I mean, it was like a 30-second interaction, but it it reminds me all the time about how important it is that we surround ourselves with people who want to talk about this. Um, I truly mean it when I say like it has like helped me to live because I talk about death and dying all the time. People think my job must be so depressing and so sad. You know, people don't I work from home now, but when I've worked in other spaces, people are like, oh, I don't want to, you know, come to your office. It's gonna be so sad. And you know, it's not like that at all. It's like very life affirming. Um, it feels so good. Um, and it really truly makes me think about what I want to do with my own life. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day, I exercise a lot, um, almost every morning. And there was one day recently I just did not want to get out of bed. Um and I thought about this gentleman that I'd spoken to the day before with ALS, and he doesn't have the option to get out of bed. Um and I said to myself, I have a body that is capable, um, that is strong, that is able to do things for me that some people don't have. And I did it. I got out of bed and I got on the treadmill for 35 minutes. Um, because I because of these kinds of conversations, I think it really truly makes me think about how fortunate I am and what I want to do to live, to really, truly live.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah. But uh yeah, there's some good thoughts there. I one thing that stuck with me that you were talking about right now, I feel like when people are grieving, or it doesn't have to be just grief, but you know, you don't you don't always want to um share everything with like everybody or you're not comfortable. What do you think what advice would you have for someone, you know, who knows uh a child or someone young that's going through uh grief and maybe what kind of environment um or yeah, what kind of conditions do you think are important for them to be able to have that space to talk, you know, or just feel comfortable?

Mandi Zucker:

I would say I completely agree with you. So I don't think that kids or adults should be forced to talk about anything that they don't want to, right? You there are certain people, you know, I'm sure we all have people in our lives. This person's good for coffee or to go play pickleball with, and this person's good for you know, a good cry one day, and you know who those people are in your own lives. Um, kids are the same way, so we want to make sure that they are they feel empowered to protect themselves and you know to talk about what they want to um in different environments. You may have heard a saying that you know people die twice. They die the first time when they physically die, and then they die again when they when people stop saying their names. And that has stuck with me. So I think our job as adults, especially when we're talking about kids, is to say the name, to invite them, to let them know that it this is an okay place to talk about them, right? So a lot of people, I'm sure you've heard this too, where they say, like, I don't want to bring up Andrew because I didn't want to make you sad. As if, like, oh, I forgot, I forgot all about Andrew until you said his name. Like, that's it's a very silly concept. But I understand people wanting to protect us, but I would say to those people, we'll let you know, as the griever, if we need to be protected. So when people say like my dad's name, I usually feel like what a gift to hear, like to learn more stories about him. My dad died 22 years ago. So to hear things about him that I didn't hear before, or to know that people still think about him, um, that is such a gift to me. If I don't want to talk about him, I don't have to, and I could say thank you. You know, for many years, when my dad died, we would light candles on Thanksgiving, which was sort of a new tradition. So we would have this a little setting um of candles, and my sisters and my mom and I would all say like a little we can call it a prayer, but like a little we have a little ritual around these candles. And then people would show up for Thanksgiving. And some people would just say, Oh, those are pretty candles. And it gave me an opportunity if I wanted to say, Well, we lit them right before everybody got here, and said a little prayer for my dad. I could say that, and it was like the opening for me. But if I didn't want to, I could say, Thank you. Yeah, they're beautiful candles, right? Like I didn't have to do anything, but it gave me that opening, and I think that that's really important to create spaces where people feel like they can talk about the person. And you know, medical aid and dying is an even more taboo topic than just dying.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah.

Mandi Zucker:

So uh sometimes we need to be as the person who's experienced it, we need to be the one that brings it up. So we let people know like it's okay to talk about it.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, I think that's why I like to talk about it too, is just the spread awareness that it that it exists. It still baffles my mind. I've told this story before. I know doctors uh in in the Midwest and other states that have no idea about it. Um like what it's it's happening in the same country that you can do.

Mandi Zucker:

There's 50% of the people in New Jersey don't know about it, and it's a law on the books. We've done polling, not us personally, but there's been polling that has shown that in the states where metaplade and dying exists, only 50% of the people know about it.

Hasban Shaikh:

Why do you think that is? That's something so core to everybody, really. Either they're gonna face it eventually or someone that that they know is gonna die. It's not like people are not dying, they're always dying. So, what what is the reason that it's not in the public consciousness more? I think about that sometimes too.

Mandi Zucker:

Yeah. I think there's a couple of reasons. Um, nobody wants to talk about it or think about it, right? And I'm not, I mean, obviously we could say we're all dying, but I'm not actively dying right now. So if you're not actively dying, you're probably not thinking about your, you know, your death. Um, you know, 30-year-olds are not walking around thinking about, you know, advanced care plans or pain management at the end of their lives or who they want to speak for them if they're no longer able to speak for themselves. Right. They don't think about that. Um, and there's, you know, I want to say there's no reason to be to bring it up. There is reason to bring it up, obviously, but uh there's not like a natural reason at that moment, it's not an imminent conversation that people need to have. So people only think about it when they have to, you know, uh, if you're single and fully single, not in a relationship, not thinking about getting married, you're probably not thinking about how to plan your wedding. But once you start getting into a relationship and it's getting serious and you're thinking about getting engaged, all of a sudden you're like, you know, things start popping up on your Instagram about venues and DJs and cakes and things like that, right? So if you're not sort of in that space, in that, you know, getting ready to die space, it's not something that we that sort of comes to our mind naturally. I think that's part of my job is to bring more consciousness to the world about death and dying, because when you want to get married, you plan a lot. You spend a lot of your time, energy, and resources into what you want your wedding to look like. And we don't do that with death, and it is, you know, one of the biggest transitions of our lives.

Hasban Shaikh:

Um, I I want to touch uh I want to ask one more question about the grief beast. Do you think that children grieve differently than like adults, or is there a different process to it? And if so, do you think you could speak to that?

Mandi Zucker:

Yeah, definitely I think that they do. Um, they're not little adults um who, you know, sort of grieve differently. And I think there's some good things about the way that kids grieve, and then some things that are challenging. Um, kids have shorter tension spans than we do, uh, which I think is a blessing when it comes to grief. So, you know, if I wake up on the wrong side of the bed, my whole day is ruined. That doesn't typically happen with kids. They can, you know, have a bad moment, then their favorite, you know, TV show comes on and they're off to the races, and you know, good for them. Uh, so they sort of grieve in more like bursts than we do. Um, it can hit us for longer periods of time, um which I think is a blessing. But their understanding of death and dying and the, you know, first of all, like the universality of death and also the permanence of death, they don't understand. So they grieve differently when they're five, and then they, you know, then they're 12, and they're like, oh, he's really not coming back, right? Um, it hits them differently, and their grief sort of, I don't want to say starts over, but it, you know, it's like a new phase of grief where as adults we pretty much understand uh that grief is permanent, that we're all gonna die. Um, so those things are sort of different. I um we don't always use the right terminology either, right? Like sometimes we'll say passed away or uh went to sleep or down, you know, like dead. Yeah. And I always say that, like, it's just a vocabulary word to kids. It's just like learning the word orange or chair, right? Like it's just a word. We're the ones that make that word scary. They have no idea that it's scary. Um, I remember a little boy who's probably five years old, he came into my office and he's like looking, like looking around. He's like looking under the couch. I don't know what he was doing. He was just like looking around. Um, well, it turns out that his mom had died. Dad told him that we lost mom. And then told him we're gonna go see Mandy because of mom. So he literally thought he was gonna find her in my office. Um, and that was devastating. I mean, truly devastating for him, for his father, um, to have to explain, like, no, she's not actually lost, right? So we need to use the right words. That mom died, that means her body stopped working, her heart's not beating, she's not able to eat or drink or play or do all the things that you know five-year-olds do. Uh, and that she, you know, once her body breaks, she can't come back. I remember when my dad died, my son was two, and I explained that to him in those ways, like, you know, Papa's body broke, um, and you know, he can't be with us anymore. And he said, Well, can't we put a new battery in him? Um, because that's what he knew about broke, right? So when his toys would break, we'd put a new battery in, and frequently they would, you know, the toy would work again. So I had to explain that we don't have batteries like that, and that the doctors tried to fix his body, but they couldn't. So that means that he died.

Hasban Shaikh:

Um, so yeah, that's hard. It's funny you say that they like pass away um in like Urdu, uh my the other language that I can sort of speak. Uh, they have like a term too that, you know, they they don't say the word dead. It's just like, you know, died or dead. Well, we try so hard to like avoid that. I think my niece one time was taught was like using the word like something died. We're like, no, no, don't say died, you know. It's just like, yeah, we're scared of the impact and maybe the sadness or something that it would uh bring on people. But usually what we're afraid of like that is not exactly um the right thing to be afraid of. Um, yeah, I I I wonder.

Mandi Zucker:

I think you know there's some cultural things around that too, like, and I'm fine with different cultures and your religious beliefs, and but I think it is important, especially with kids, to concretely explain what that means. And then if you want to talk about heaven or God or spirits or souls, all that's fine. But first, explain what it means to be dead, you know. Um, I have I know another woman who she's actually a social worker, so she thought she was like doing this right, and she did do a lot of things right. Her four-year-old, um, her father had died, and her daughter was four, and she said, you know, she went to him and explained that grandpa died. And um, she was crying when she told her daughter that grandpa died. And she said, you know, tell me what kind of questions you have. And, you know, I don't her daughter didn't have really any questions. They cried together for a few minutes, and then, like I said, four-year-old attentions are short. She found something else to do and went to play, and all was fine, you know, for the moment. And then they're walking down the street in New York City, and her daughter says to her, Is Grandpa still swimming? And she said, Swimming? Why do you think grandpa's swimming? And she said, Well, you told me he dived. And she said, No, he didn't dive, he died. But she didn't know what died meant meant. So she heard dive because that's the only word she knew. So the mom didn't explain enough about what died actually means. His body stopped working, he's not able to eat and drink, and go to the potty and sleep and do all the things that her four-year-old does. Um, so she made up in her mind what that meant.

Hasban Shaikh:

Wow, yeah. Um yeah. You've I guess you do you you just have to be clear with kids too. I'm sure we could do that with more with like adults too, when they like when they grieve. As uh as as Kendrick Lamar said, we all grieve different. Um and I and e even grief is uh just one of those topics I've really been like interested in because um and because you're right, not just about uh you know the most potent part of probably time is when someone dies. Everyone knows that kind of grief. Um I've seen people defer grief, but you can it can it can be like the loss of a a relationship, a job even, you know, just people in your life that you miss. Um yeah, I like you know, I've yeah. But anyways, grief is a it is a powerful topic, and and and I hope that people find support because I I do feel like in this disconnected world that we have right now, we're I guess we're super connected online, but not really uh like in person. I think, you know, I always think like there's probably people just walk uh at there's probably people walking and you see them and maybe they're having a bad day, they they honk at you in traffic or something like that, and they piss you off. Maybe that person lost some somebody or there's grieving something, you know, they're having a hard time um processing their like emotions. Um but yeah. Uh so I I I also want to, you know, I I'm really interested in like in your story. It seems like this project that you're that you're a part of, it's something you've been working towards your whole life. Um and you're seeing it on a D you know, uh, or like a lot of your life, I guess. And uh you're you're seeing this bill on the governor's desk. I mean you're you're working for such a noble cause and you're close. Um if this bill pass if this bill does pass, what's next for you? Um Yeah how do you see your role like transforming?

Mandi Zucker:

Yeah, people keep saying, like, are you gonna pass a bill and lose your job? Um and I wish that was it was as easy as that. I don't want to lose my job. Um, if anybody on my board is listening, I definitely don't want to lose my job. But actually, the work just begins. I mean, passing this bill is like the tip of the iceberg, and we've already started. So, like I said, 50% of people in some of the other states that have this bill know know that it exists. We don't want that for New York. We want everybody to know that it exists and we want them to know how to access the bill. So, really working on the implementation of this bill, that is what is super exciting to me. So, we've already started. We've um partnered with the Academy of Aid and Dying Medicine. Um, they're in California, but they're a national organization and they support clinicians who are working with patients on medical aid and dying. So we're working right now, mostly I would say we're working with doctors, but we're already working to identify pharmacies that can dispense the drugs because what's the point of having a bill that you can't get the drugs for? Um you don't have to, right? And you know, like just this bill in New York, just like in every other state, is completely optional. So anybody that participates as a professional has the option to opt out. So pharmacies don't have to dispense this drug. So we need to educate doctors, pharmacies, nurses, social workers, chaplains, all the people that could be part of this, what the bill is, what their role would be, what their um, you know, how they can participate if they want to. We have to educate the public about the the availability of this. So we need to do massive public awareness campaigns, uh, you know, show up in nursing homes, in churches, in synagogues, and senior centers, letting people know that this bill exists and how they can access it. So the work is, like I said, it is an enormous responsibility if this passes. And as well as because it's available to everybody outside of New York, we have to educate people from out of state and we also have to plan for them. So we can't, you know, I anticipate because I've spoken to colleagues in other states that don't have residency requirements, I anticipate a slew of calls coming in from people from out of state saying, how do I access this? How can I get a doctor, a, you know, a place to be, um, all of those kinds of things. So we're already working on that.

Hasban Shaikh:

So how can they um access it? What should someone um who's not in the state, you know, um, what should they know about something like this? Like, do you just like live there for a little bit and then just transfer your medical?

Mandi Zucker:

Well, you don't have to live here. Yeah, I guess in our bill, unless the governor, right, unless the governor changes that. I, you know, it's very possible that she makes some kind of amendments to the bill. But assuming she keeps the residency requirement, the residency requirement out, which we hope she does, um, yeah, there's a lot of things that we're trying to figure out. Like, you know, do we need to find a residence? Maybe we create a residence. Uh, New Mexico has a great system where they have a basically a bed in a nursing home. So that if people call sort of our organization in New Mexico, if they call them and say, I'd like to come to New Mexico, they can help them create res they need a residency requirement, but it's pretty liberal in New Mexico. So create a residency at this nursing home. So they have a bed ready for them, they have doctors who are ready to work with these patients. So we have to figure all of that out. We're like literally in the middle of doing that. We've created a bunch of committees with the academy to focus on like how are other states doing all of these things, putting our own policies and procedures in place. We're working with doctors and hospitals to figure out what kind of policies they need, if they're going to allow it, um, you know, how to educate their doctors, whether or not they want to participate, and if they do want to participate, you know, all of the things. Um, the drugs that you use. And I mean, I'm not a doctor, so I don't even I can't even say I pretend to be one on TV. There's a lot involved.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, the infrastructure actually now now that you explained it, it sounds like there's a lot to do. Um, is there gonna be any difference? Because I know the medication has changed over the decades. Um, is there any like difference between the medication they might use in New York compared to like other states, or is it all gonna be kind of the same, same cocktail idea?

Mandi Zucker:

Again, I'm not a doctor, so I want to be careful about that. My understanding is no, that it wouldn't be different, but it's not always exactly the same either. So, again, not a doctor, but I um I pay a lot of attention to what doctors are saying about this. So I am privy to some conversations that doctors have with one another. And what I've heard is that, you know, depending on somebody's illness or their weight or their metabolism or the way that they ingest the medication. So you can take it orally, or you can take it through a feeding tube, or you know, there's a whole bunch of different things, all of those things determine the dosage and perhaps the kinds of medications that people would be taking. So there's a, you know, it's not just, you know, I want to take medical-aid and dyeing pills or drugs. Uh, you go to a doctor and they give you the script for that, you know. Um doctors really have to know who their patients are and make very good clinical decisions for them.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, we're we're planning on having a pharmacist that's worked on this a medication before to uh kind of speak about that more. But yeah.

Mandi Zucker:

If that pharmacist is interested in talking to any pharmacists in New York that are interested in learning, let me know.

Hasban Shaikh:

Okay, for sure. Yeah, we'll we'll try to do some uh connecting. That would be like that that would be cool. Um but yeah, it's been really nice like hearing your story. Uh I wanted to also pass it on to uh Strev to see if uh he had any questions or like or thoughts before we started wrapping it up.

Jon Strevell:

Yeah. Um Andy, uh you've been working to advocate for this bill for you know roughly 10 years, it seems. It's a long time. Shows a lot of grit and you know, perseverance, determination. Um what has this process been like for you? And um, I guess how do you manage the ups and downs to any setbacks? Stay motivated.

Mandi Zucker:

Um yeah, I would say it's it's been exhilarating most of the time. Again, I think the people that care about this bill, advocates and supporters from around the state that I've met have been inspiring, not only because many of them have really difficult stories. Um, and you know, if you have stories like that, like sometimes you just feel like I can't do more. I'm just exhausted from my experience. But so many of these people decide, you know, sometimes in honor of that person that they're going to stay focused and get this bill passed so someone else doesn't have to, you know, live the way that their person did. So that's incredibly inspiring. It's exhausting. Um It is sad and frustrating sometimes. I keep I wrote a newsletter recently that I said something like we are waiting and then in parentheses, not so patiently for Governor Hovel to sign. Like it's getting hard. It's really, you know, we're at we're like right there. Um so it is frustrating. Um, and I think the good news is that the people that are in this work are really genuinely nice people. Like who would do this if they weren't? Right. So I don't come across a lot of people that I don't like or that are difficult because we're all working towards the same thing. So it's been actually a really inspiring and uh and like I said, in exhilarating experience. So most of the time I feel pretty energized by this work. I'm also fortunate that I have, you know, a great family and self-care has become very important to me. And I have a lot of you know pretty sound self-care techniques that I use daily uh to make sure that I start my day and end my day well and grounded.

Jon Strevell:

Yeah, it's great to hear from people who are passionate about this subject and you know willing to be open to discussing great stuff.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was a really good question, actually, because that is true, you know. We all have like this is one of the ultimate projects, but I'm sure there's so many moments uh throughout your career where you're like, this climate, this environment, this country, it's just not possible here, you know. Um I you know, why am I doing this or something like that? Um I could totally see that. I yeah. And uh, but you guys, you guys, and I mean guys and gals and like like throughout the country that that like work on this, it's amazing what determination that you've shown. Um and in in and all of it.

Mandi Zucker:

It's very hard to give up when you look around and you see these people who had a family member die 15 years ago and they are still working to get this bill passed. Like it it would almost be rude, you know, like that I would say, Oh, I don't want to do that anymore. Like I mean, what a slap in the face of the people that have been working so hard, and you know, I care a lot about this issue, but I also do get paid to, you know, I have a job. Some of these people, like they're just doing it because they want this, and I I honor them by doing this job.

Hasban Shaikh:

For sure. Um, yeah, I I I couldn't have said that better. You know, all whatever this podcast uh uh this podcast is an inspiration is uh Suzy Flack, who is like Andrew's mom, and the work that she continues to do, um, she was a big part in getting that um bill in in the state of like Illinois um on the governor's desk, and she still advocates uh uh and so and and so and so does his family, and so and so do we all. And um and and and you know, just to go back to that point about like motivation, we still, I mean, friends, I mean like like uh m me and Strev talk about this. We still uh get so much inspiration from like Andrew, you know. I think Strev was talking about, I think he like ran like a marathon or something or got injured, and he was talking about how he had to like he thought about Andrew and the stuff that he went through and he pushed through it. Um I've got some friends here that got to meet um Um Andrew in kind of his last couple weeks of life that have really gone through some stuff, and uh sometimes they'll bring him up and but they'll be like, Yeah, I don't know how how he did it. I I struggled to do this or that, you know. And uh yeah, these stories that and the and then the suffering that people went through wasn't in in like in like in vain, you know. It gave us all the energy to keep going and uh and it in a in in like a strange way it was also a blessing for us. Andrew used to talk about that like a lot. He's like, I hope this only like happens to me. Um, you know, I hope whatever this is, it doesn't happen to you guys or my family. I hope no one else has to go through this, and I hope you guys can use this somehow, you know. And um, yeah, but that's that's very cool that you do what you do.

Mandi Zucker:

Um well it's very cool that you're doing that. What a legacy he is leaving for you for sure.

Hasban Shaikh:

Um, yeah, it's like an honor to do this podcast. I mean, you know, we get on here, we have our own lives, or out we're like podcasting is not our thing, you know. We're not trying to like have the biggest podcast out there um or grow it or you know, or get like ads or something like that. We just do this just for the cause.

Mandi Zucker:

Um and uh well, I hope you do get all of that though, because honestly, that's how more people will know about it, you know. Like we want people talking about it. So I hope I'll help you do whatever I can to get people.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yeah, for sure. It's really wild. The podcast has really taken on like a life of its own, especially in like the last three months. We've had so many inquiries, and you know, before we're thinking about how we can get guests, but we've just had uh just people like reaching out to us once a month or maybe a couple times a month, we'll get like an email from someone that listened to the whole podcast, like all the episodes saying how much they appreciated Andrew and his story and the podcast. And you know, like I'm like a normal dude, I feel I you know, I I didn't ever think I would get like an email like that. You know, sometimes they'll call me out too, they'll be like, Yeah, and you're like and your friend like Hosbot. I'm like that I mean that just an honor, honestly. That's that's the only word that like I can use. Um, Streb, did you have anything else before we uh wrap up?

Jon Strevell:

Um, nothing specific, just been really uh yeah, to touch on what you were saying, really been special to be part of this, and uh just making sure that none of the work he did was in vain, you know. It's special to see when we get those inquiries from people that are still being touched by episodes that were released years ago, you know. Um and it's you know, it is like you said, Mandy, it's pretty easy to stay motivated when you get these emails and you see these uh changes are still happening.

Hasban Shaikh:

Yep. Um Mandy, did you have any uh final thoughts or anything to uh anything else that you want to uh say or or like speak about?

Mandi Zucker:

Well, I would um just encourage anybody that's listening, uh especially if they're in New York, to reach out to Governor Hokwall and let her know how much you support this bill. And um, we have like a sample template letter on our website. It's um endoflifechoicesny.org. People can go there, um, find her address, her email, her phone number, all of the things. Um, but we need as much support as we can get to get us over the finish line here.

Hasban Shaikh:

I've always wanted to say this, but we'll add that to the podcast description and and uh and like everything. We'll add all the links. Thank you, thank you. Excellent, excellent. For sure. Well, thank you for your time. Uh this was great. And uh we hope to uh stay in touch with you and uh we'll we'll stay tuned and hopefully uh we'll be sending you an email congratulating you on the bill being passed next year.

Mandi Zucker:

I hope so. This year, this year it's gotta be done by the yeah.

Hasban Shaikh:

Oh yeah, it's gotta be done this year. I meant this year.

Mandi Zucker:

Yeah. Yep. Okay. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Hasban Shaikh:

No problem. Thank you for your time. Bye.

Mandi Zucker:

All right, bye-bye.