Anecdote intro

Pat Nemmers

If I could just add one little thing this is something anecdotal and it's not about me , what I love telling this story . There's a guy his name is Don Godwin , he's 84 years old And I came 25 years ago , so he was considerably younger then . He was a deacon in our church And he was one of these guys who was renowned , very respectable man in the community , a great businessman , but also just very strong convictions about everything , everything biblical and extra biblical . We were in a deacon meeting I can mention by name because he knows this story and I love telling this story . We're in this deacon meeting . There's about 10 or 12 of us , maybe 15 of us . We were going to bring wait for it drums onto the platform of our church , double bass , yeah . And so I'm the one who put this is like 20 , some years ago , and I'm the one who put it forth , you know , because the other guy next to me didn't have the guts to do so . So I put it forth and Don lit up the room . I mean , he lit it up , his face got red , he preached against the drums Why we shouldn't do this And it was just so out of line .

Pat Nemmers

There was this pause . You could cut the air with a knife . And I said , don , you were completely out of line . You should be ashamed of yourself for the way you just talked just now . And I went on and said a few more things . And that's when you could cut the air with a knife . And everybody just waiting collectively what's going to happen . Don Godwin , sitting opposite of me , looked at everybody at table . He went like this , put his head down , slowly raised it back up . He said you're absolutely right , pastor . I sinned against everyone here . Will you please forgive me ?

Emeal Zwayne

There is a very cynical adage that says the world would be a wonderful place if it didn't have people in it . Of course , as a Christian , i don't subscribe to such a terrible , wicked , evil , atrocious , cynical statement . No , as a Christian , i say that the world is a wonderful place because it has me and a few other select people in it . Of course you would , yes , and today , friends , one of those people who make this world a wonderful place is here with us at our Living Waters headquarters . This person is one of my absolute favorite people on the entire planet .

Oscar Navarro

Oh , you seem so embarrassed . Thank you so much , i know . I think he's talking about me .

Emeal Zwayne

Her name is Marilyn Nemmers , And while she's too humble and modest to join us on the podcast today , she has loaned us her husband , the one , the only , PAAAAAAAAMNNNNNNNEMMERS .

Pat Nemmers

Great to be with you . I'm reminded of JFK when he was introduced and he said I'm the one who came with Jacqueline Kennedy back .

Emeal Zwayne

Oh yes , Remember that .

Ray Comfort

Because my wife is just off camera and she makes my life what it is Wonderful . Oh , help me . I'll just give you an adjective .

Emeal Zwayne

We know who that is , i think you're throwing the wonderful in there We know who the better half is in this marriage . Amen . And Marilyn is such a delight , so good to have her here with us . But , pat , this has been kind of a dream for me to have you here . You are , in reality , one of my favorite people on the planet And the Lord , by his divine providence , caused our paths

Passionate Church Planting and Evangelism

Emeal Zwayne

to cross . This goes back , i don't know , has it been 10 ?

Oscar Navarro

years ? Yeah , i wanted to know . How do you guys know each other ?

Pat Nemmers

Yeah , i think it's actually longer than 10 years . I spoke at a men's retreat at Big Bear several years ago And , Ezy you were amongst the men , along with your brother , got to meet him .

Oscar Navarro

Yeah , I snuck him in there , huh .

Emeal Zwayne

But all the edams there whatever about that .

Pat Nemmers

It was a fast friendship , yeah , really really fun .

Emeal Zwayne

No , it was amazing And I think it kind of went on steroids real quick because we gave you a ride back to town or something . I don't know what happened , but you said , hey , can you guys give me a ride back to Orange County or whatever . We took you back with us and the fellowship we shared on the road And just after that we just stayed in contact . I flew out there with our good friend Charlie , Yeah , And I thought you guys would have a good connection . You're actually out here to speak for them . You guys have stayed super close friends for many years . You come out almost every year now , right ?

Pat Nemmers

Yeah , In fact so close . last night , because of a glitch in our flight plans , we didn't get here until after midnight . Charlie drove all the way down for Corona , picked us up , brought us to the hotel , Even though we didn't have any luggage . It worked out great . We're thankful . Yeah , you smell today , by the way .

Ray Comfort

I know .

Pat Nemmers

Thank you very much .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , no luggage man Crazy .

Emeal Zwayne

But that's Charlie . That's part of the course with that guy . So so it really . Is It really ?

Pat Nemmers

is It really is . What a brother .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah . So , pat , you're from Iowa , and Rachel and I had the chance to go out there years ago as well . We did , we did a marriage conference for you guys , we did , and so the Lord has just been blessing the church out there . We're going to get into a bunch of stuff , but tell us real quick about your church , about your engaged network and all the things you guys are doing .

Pat Nemmers

So this I am in my 25th year . In fact , next month I'll have been at Sayreville Church for 25 years .

Oscar Navarro

I think church wow .

Pat Nemmers

It's right in the middle of Des Moines , actually the north side of Des Moines , Iowa , capital of Iowa Church , about 300 when we came . It's a church close to 1500 now . But , more importantly , 18 years ago we began the engaged network . We wanted to be a church that planted church , Gospel center churches , planting gospel center churches . We now have seven and there are over 4,000 people in these churches in the greater Des Moines area . It's a wonderful thing . These guys are tremendous preachers , tremendous evangelists , great Bible expositors doing great things . And really my wife , who you just mentioned is off camera our greatest joy here just recent days is our youngest son , who we'll talk about probably in the podcast eventually is just been commissioned to plant our next church in the engaged network Really , really cool .

Oscar Navarro

We're grateful . Real quick . All seven churches are in Iowa .

Pat Nemmers

All seven churches are within the Des Moines area , that we have one in Winterset That's the home of John Wayne We just talked about that a little bit ago and that's about 45 minutes from Des Moines . That's our paradigm . Our paradigm is interior . That is the greater Des Moines area . We're willing to break it . We just don't know how to go about doing that going outside .

Oscar Navarro

So real quick . I know it's not on our agenda but because I didn't know that about you , which is amazing And I'm a huge advocate , super passionate about church planting I'm a part of a church plant myself . We've been there for five years . I know many of our I imagine many of our listeners maybe not aren't familiar with that phrase church planting . Or why church planting So real brief , why ?

Pat Nemmers

church planting . Well , back in the nineties up until the nineties , the big stick was to be the biggest church on the block . Just get bigger , fatter , more pews , more people Fatter .

Oscar Navarro

You're talking my language .

Pat Nemmers

Well , i mean seriously , that's what you end up getting fat , you get lazy And it's all about pulpiteering And I'm all about preaching the gospel And I love the pulpit and preaching , but we decided very early on that , really , in order to honor the Lord and the Great Commission , we needed to replicate ourselves , and part of our philosophy of church planning is so . The Des Moines area has got over half a million people . It's not like we're not not like LA , but it's still a lot of people . You're not going to draw everybody to one spot . So by going out to these edges , planting church is taking gospel center men to these areas . Then our philosophy is if you are going to be a part of that church , you need to move to that area .

Ray Comfort

You have to move to the area .

Pat Nemmers

And because we want to send messages , like Jeremiah did . We want to send messages to those areas to say we're here to stay , we're not carpet beggars , we're coming here to stay , we're coming here to live , to be with you , and so far it's worked pretty good . It's awesome .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , and you know , having been out there , as I mentioned with Charlie Moulton , and we met with your leaders and it was such a joy to see the caliber of these men I know there's more now , since we're out there but guys that have a passion for the word , for the Lord , but also for the lost And , pat , that is a byproduct , i believe , of your example to them . I don't think I've honestly met a senior pastor with more passion for souls than you have , and it's evident every time we get together you have a new story . Oh , we went out with so-and-so and this happened . We have these people at our house And so obviously that's the heartbeat of our ministry right to inspire and equip Christians and fulfill the Great Commission . And even now , as I mentioned , evangelism . You're just smiling So real , quickly . Give us kind of the backdrop to that in your life .

Pat Nemmers

I became a Christian in 1982 . I was raised in a strong Roman Catholic world . I have no regrets of my upbringing , but when the gospel came to me again , just thinking about the whole business of the law and how it came upon me , i saw my lostess . I repented of my sin , placed my faith in Jesus , then realized this is what everybody needs . Yes , and freely . I've received , i need to freely give , and so .

Pat Nemmers

But I hadn't experienced golfing with the guy that discipled me within just months after I became a Christian . We were golfing . It was almost like it was almost a prophetic moment , if I could use the term loosely . We were golfing . He said his name was Tom . He's with the Lord now . He said Pat . He says you're going to pastor someday And no matter how big your church gets , you'd better be working with lost people . I love it And I'll never forget that . I mean , he just went on , we just went on with the game , but I couldn't shake that word that he gave me . It just , it was just tattooed on my heart and my mind It was a whole in one .

Ray Comfort

That was great .

Emeal Zwayne

That was my whole in one They haven't had one though . Ray , one of the things that you've talked about throughout the years is that it always begins at the top in terms of Yeah , pastor reproduces after his own kind .

Ray Comfort

If he's prophetic , the whole church will be prophetic and pathetic , because they've forgotten the meaning of existing . But the pastor's got a concern for the lost . He'll reproduce after his own kind . The analogy falls down that a shepherd reproduces , so a sheep reproduced . but they do , they reproduce after their own kind . They've got a concern for the lost . So that excites me , because you're one in a million , thank you .

Pat Nemmers

Ray , we had a renowned leader of a missionary movement visit our church several months ago And afterwards I took him out for lunch . I said what was your highlight today ? And of course I was thinking he was going to talk about my profound message that I preached .

Pat Nemmers

And we had baptisms that day . He goes oh , the baptisms were great . I said , oh , praise the Lord , i'm still waiting for that . I wrote a book on humility but I haven't quite arrived yet . Okay , so he goes to be honest , pat . He said what I loved mostly was the fact that you preached the gospel And the message was the gospel wasn't an add-on , but it wasn't just a message on how to be saved . But of course , i gave the gospel . That was what you know in my mind . I went well , duh . And he said , pat , you don't get it . I have been in hundreds and he used , he said , hundreds of churches in the last couple of years , churches that you and I could sign the doctoral statements in , and I would walk out of those churches and never know how to be saved , and that was my highlight .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , yeah , and the Lord has honored that . Your church has grown , i mean , tripled , pretty much , right , since you started . Well , it's , yeah , five times as big as you said . How much , how many ? We're running close to 1500 people . When you started , how many ? was it ? About 300. ? Oh , about three . Yeah , so I mean to see that , but also the fact that you're planting churches . You know you're basically doing what Scripture talks about in terms of , you know , taking what you've learned and passing it on to others , as Paul said to Timothy . And so what a joy to see that , pat , and may the Lord continue to use you to influence others . May you one day be able to come back here and say , yeah , we've got , you know , 50 churches in the world .

Pat Nemmers

I would love to do that . We've never had that goal , easy to do that , But years ago . It's an obscure verse , but God laid Romans 15 and 18 on my heart , where Paul says I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me , Both in word and in deed . Yeah , So D L Moody said , and you like to quote D L Moody . he said the great sin of his generation was men trafficking in unlived truth . I don't want to be that guy .

Emeal Zwayne

Amen , yeah , and it's beautiful . You know , years ago we planted it when I was pastoring . We planted a church in Mexico and that church just recently , i believe planted their 49th church . They're sending people back to the US to plant churches , oh my goodness , and it's just so wonderful to see that , you know , because what you teach at home will be done when they arrive . That's why I tell churches look , you're sending missionaries out to go and plant churches in other parts of the world , but you're not doing evangelism at home . What do you think they're going to do when they arrive ? Right , they're going to do what you're doing and not do evangelism there . They're just going to try to , you know , steal from other flocks , and so I love that , pat .

Oscar Navarro

And let me just to wrap around from the church planning And one of the things that's amazing to me about church planning , because we planted in Orange County , which is like the mecca of mega churches right , There's no shortage of churches over a thousand people here . A thousand people is a small church in comparison to some of the churches around here .

Oscar Navarro

It's like some people might ask well , why plant a church in a place like Orange County with all these other churches around ? And the answer to that question is probably the same reason why you guys are planting churches , It doesn't matter where . It's this incredible stat that I've not gotten over , which is that unchurched non-believers are more likely to attend a new church plant than an established one , which tells you that there's something missional in nature about church planning , And I love that you mentioned that our team go and they live there . They are a part of the community . Because it does burden me sometimes when I hear people going oh yeah , I go to this mega church over here . It's an hour drive from where I live . That to me sounds like the potential of having an attendant rather than a member , And so the fact that you guys are planting with members that are living in the area on mission man , that's the book of Acts all over again . Amen , Amen , Great word .

Emeal Zwayne

Well , friends , we have a lot to cover . I have a few housekeeping things to take care of , but before that , pat's here to talk about as we touch on the subject for this particular podcast His book retractions cultivating humility after humiliation . And I got to tell you , pat I'm holding the copy here in my hand This is an excellent book , not just in terms of the content , because , you know , i endorsed it , re-endorsed it .

Oscar Navarro

I he read it cover to cover , literally just the front cover in the back . That's it .

Emeal Zwayne

That was very easy and but , but everything about it , not just the content , but I remember when I finally got the finished product in my hand , the feel , the look , the cover , the graphics . I mean this thing is really . It's a home run . And , friends , let me just tell you , the renowned Tim Chalise , who is one of the absolute top Christian book reviewers in the world , put it on His top books of 2022 list , which is a huge accomplishment , and listen to what he said .

Emeal Zwayne

He said , and so he begins , at the beginning of his Christian life , to show the danger of zeal that is accompanied by ignorance instead of knowledge . He discusses the importance of eating crow and being who God has made him to be , rather than attempting to imitate someone else . As a book advances , he shows how he once slipped into the lure of legalism , how he came to understand the freedom of a clear conscience , how he stopped selling his church in favor of telling people about Jesus . Now He learned the importance of publicly confessing public sins . In each case , he shares an experience or anecdote and describes what the Lord taught him through it . He writes honestly and forthrightly , yet not ex pedicous , exhibitionist , acitcly , and it leads to a book that is enjoyable to read and that also provides plenty of helpful instruction . I might go so far as to say it's one of my favorite books of 2022 . Hmm , whoa , were you expecting that , pat , when you ?

Emeal Zwayne

know , when you need to . Challenge was reviewing it .

Pat Nemmers

I need to Buttrust or just preempt the responses with this to

Humility and Confessing Sins

Pat Nemmers

you . Easy , when I was writing that book , i finished it , sent you the manuscript and you know you just effervesce with encouragement and I told you to read it . I said , easy , i expect you to be nice to me but I want you to be brutal on this book . Yeah , and you got back . Now I have to ask you have , does anybody ever voice tech ? you , ray , you ever get voice Sometimes . You ever get voice techs , asker . Okay , what would be a typical length of a voice text that you might get ?

Ray Comfort

Oh , i don't know a minute like 30 minutes of singing .

Pat Nemmers

I got an 11 minute voice text from easy Wow , and so the first two minutes were this you know he was schmoozing me , you were there . Wonderful , yeah , it was fantastic . I love the book . If you never change a thing , i'll , i'll promote it . But he said but since you asked , and then I got nine minutes of Criticism . But it was , it was godly , it was kind and it was so helpful . I took nearly every . You had six major little six changes . They weren't large , they weren't pair , they were a couple more paragraphs and few were just lines cut back from 60 by the way . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . But I'm telling you easy , that was so helpful to me And I think it helped make the book a better book , so I thank you for that . Now , what was your question ?

Ray Comfort

He's his real gift of discretion . He's gonna run you over on a bus . He better convince you . It's gonna be good for you .

Oscar Navarro

I have a confession and then a question for you . My confession is this I get books all the time , mail me books and I'm really thankful for that . People handing us books being at the ministry , we get a lot of self-published books . Guys will walk in or hand it to us and and I got to tell you , when I get those books I come , i'm not gonna read it . Yeah , you know . And so when easy handed me this book , i was like , yeah , sure , uh-huh , i'm not gonna read this book .

Pat Nemmers

And .

Oscar Navarro

I put it away . I'm just being totally honest with you . And then my friend Thaddeus got on that same best of 2022 list by Chalice . So him and I were talking and as I was scrolling the rest of the list , i saw this book on there and I go , oh , that's Easy's friend , and so I'm like , all right , well , chalice is a trusted resource . I'm gonna have to pick it up and read this book , and so I read it .

Oscar Navarro

My biggest pitch for this book is this a Lot of books on leadership come at it from a . Have the voice of a teacher . Have the voice of like a professor . That's being didactic . Pat .

Oscar Navarro

You write in this book like a mentor Hmm , like someone . I'm sitting across the coffee table because a mentor is this . A mentor is not the guy that's gonna give you the Five ways of being a better husband and mentors not the guy that's gonna give you the acronym That you need to memorize to avoid sin . A mentor has those things in his back pocket , but a mentor is gonna confess sin with you . He's gonna be transparent about his life with you And as I was reading this book , that's the sense that I got the pastoral heart and the heart of a mentor and with that I want it because the book's called retractions .

Oscar Navarro

It's kind of a weird word . You define retractions like this . On page eight you say retraction is an honest , humble . Look at past and some current ways of thinking and acknowledgement of my errors in them . Retraction for any of us entails a willingness to openly admit , confess , repent of our errors and to keep confessing them , not only for our own benefit but also for the benefit of others . It's about cultivating humility After being humbled , pat . Why is that so important and how does that benefit people who are reading and listening ?

Pat Nemmers

Well , that's a really good word , super appreciated , oscar . I didn't want to be that guy who gave you five reasons to do this , ten reasons to do that . To answer your question , everybody loves humility . Nobody wants to be humbled , mm-hmm . It's one thing . That is to be humiliated , because we all get humiliated at some time in our life . It's another thing to be humble as a result of that humiliation . This is my attempt of showing ongoing humility and I base it off of Psalm 51 , where you know you have David . You know he never mentions Bathsheba in Psalm 51 . He never mentions murder , though He alludes to it . He never mentions adultery , all these things he was guilty of and then some . But you can't read Psalm 51 without Sensing this abject humility that he has and it's on the record for eternity . It's like God said , david , i'm not gonna hold you culpable for your sin that you've confessed and forsaken , but I am gonna . I want you to continue to cultivate that for the generations to come .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , it's sensed all throughout the book . I think one of our biggest errors as Christians is forgetting that the most important person in the world already knows all that there is to know about us . And the one thing that causes any kind of break in our Communion with him not from his standpoint , but from ours , because our , you know , we cause our sin to cause us to withdraw from it But that's pride , and I mean scripture speaks in the grand scheme that God is opposed to the proud But gives grace to the humble . And that's where I always want to be . I want to be in that place where I'm a recipient of the overflow of God's grace in my life as his child . Of course , i'm sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise and no one will ever snatch me out of his hand . Nothing will separate me from his love . But our pride has a way of Distancing us from the Lord . I always want to be close to him , and that pathway is is recognizing that There's nothing in ourselves to boast about . It's all about him .

Pat Nemmers

And the vehicle to that grace that you just alluded to , that Peter talks about in James as well , is humility . Yeah , and again I mean , i don't want to get redundant , but everybody loves humility . Nobody wants to be humbled . Yeah , yeah , that's true .

Oscar Navarro

I notice a theme that happens within Christianity , which is when people go to share their testimonies . It's almost cookie cutter . It's like I was a saint , i did this . I mean , i was a sinner , i did this and this and this , and then I reprinted trust in the Lord and now everything's great and wonderful and I Hardly ever sin anymore . You , they don't say that , but their testimonies , the way they project it is almost like the sins that are worth confessing . Or behind me They're pre-salvific man .

Oscar Navarro

You confess some , some sins in here , including ones that you committed behind the pulpit as a pastor , and I love that . You say all of us have this is your quote . All of us have humbling experience . It's designed by God to shape our lives . However , my experience for many years of working with people is that most of us , once we have confessed and forsaken our sin , wish the whole thing , including the memories , would all go away . Do you agree with that ? I absolutely do you , and here's the key .

Oscar Navarro

You say my plea to you in this book is don't do that . Instead of wasting your sin , let the many people near and dear to you learn from your humility and prayerfully avoid your pitfall . So why ? I guess the question is like what do we lose when we project ? all of my sins are pre-salvation Salvation . What do we gain when we're really honest and going ? no , here's me as a saved Saint , still sinning . Here's how I've . I've sinned . Here's my confessing . Like , what is the value ? as somebody who might want to hide it , might want to wish it never to be true , what's the value ? What's the plea to them is to confess those things . Continue to confess them to the people around you .

Pat Nemmers

Well , i think you're answered the question there . Ask her I mean , when we do that , why does everyone love humility , humility ? I don't know about you , but I'm drawn to humble people . I'm drawn to two kinds of people joyous people and Humble people , and we all just as . How are you friends with ? easy ? That's why , it is a distant relationship .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , you know , ray , you've often talked about how , if we don't humble ourselves , the Lord will humble us . That's important to remember as we face situations of humiliation where pride is prone to keep us from humility .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , i was thinking this morning difference between humiliation and humility . And there really is a huge difference . If you've a humiliating yourself in the pulpit because that is a perfect place to make a fool , you see can make it for yourself at home in front of the Mirror , like I was looking at my physique once and I said out loud could be worse ? and my wife said not much .

Ray Comfort

Amen to that you from being humbled to being humiliated , Yeah but I was thinking about the stocks , and they were used many years ago . I don't easy know what stocks are . That's not shoes and stocks . No , stocks are what they'd put people in . Oh , yeah , local village that was to humiliate Yeah , it was to me was to punish them , and it's still legal in England to do that Is that where , where you put your arms and head .

Ray Comfort

No , no , no , it's not just your feet for the stocks . Oh , there's another one for you put your head through and your arms , yeah , and your arms . But that , then ? this is what's that called mocks .

Oscar Navarro

I Gillotine no , no , that's not the killer , cut it out Oscar . I'm just trying to stay ahead of it .

Ray Comfort

It was to , it was to humiliate , but what ? what made me laugh was that the whole village was encouraged to go and punish this person , throw cabbages at them and tickle their feet . And I'm not kidding . Oh , that was one of the things .

Oscar Navarro

This sounds like a street preacher , are you Sure ?

Pat Nemmers

I can't think of anything more torturous than to be an actual pain and laughing at the same time .

Oscar Navarro

Yeah , yeah , so that's humiliation welcome to the living waters ministry .

Ray Comfort

Yeah . That's crazy Yeah and actually that would be torment for you , right ?

Emeal Zwayne

Oh , don't even talk about you .

Ray Comfort

You touch my ribs and I'll scream .

Oscar Navarro

I'm not kidding show them , show them .

Ray Comfort

Even easy . My daughter Rachel , who easy's married to she , has the same weakness that I have .

Emeal Zwayne

I just I just made . We were in Texas on the getaway . I just , for the first time in my life , made a commitment to stop tickling her good . It's because it doesn't , i don't know . I said I'm gonna try it makes us panic .

Ray Comfort

I'm not kidding It's about . I think I have a heart attack of you tickling me . Kurt can more to poke me in the ribs on planes and I would scream out loud , which isn't good when you're a plane . He just thought it was really funny , i didn't , it was just . It makes me makes . Anyway , that's humiliation and it's up to us whether or not we're gonna use that humiliation for our good by humbling ourselves . I was humiliated with the whole banana man thing , for you know about the banana man thing .

Pat Nemmers

No , i'm not sure about no . You would if you did , if you did , if you did tell him oh , now it's too complicated .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , i'll send him the video . It's . It's called the full , it's online , it's over a million views .

Pat Nemmers

I'll check it out .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , but I was very humiliated for years until Scotty , our tech guy who's looking after us today , told me why don't you use this For God's glory ? so I did and open huge doors for us . Number of the first door that are open with having lunch with the President of American Atheist season . I spent 90 minutes over lunch with because he is fascinated to be with silver man , david David . Silverman yeah , and it opened many , many doors , and that's where taking humiliation and letting it get you humble and God-opening doors because of it really cool .

Emeal Zwayne

What is what is at the root of pride , would you say like . What is it that that makes us human heart ?

Ray Comfort

We're asking you about pride .

Oscar Navarro

Yeah , the man rightfully answer this on him .

Pat Nemmers

I literally Thought on this book for a dozen years for several reasons , but not the least of which was to that question . I mean , I'm not qualified . Am I qualified to talk about humility ? Let's ask your wife . Yeah , Well , you know I'm . It isn't to say I don't still have multiple moments of pride . Yeah , and I'd rather . It's a little bit like to answer the question . It's a little bit like what it was that . What was it ? the Supreme Court Justice said many years ago that he he couldn't define pornography , but he knew it when he saw it .

Pat Nemmers

Yeah and I would wouldn't . I mean , we all know that's a reason like there's , like You know , there's lines like pride's the only disease that makes everybody else sick , but the person who has it . You know , yeah , to me I'd rather talk about how I detect it . Yeah , in myself versus the wise , you know . You know , to me it just comes back to the sin We are . We are right down to our DNA . We are sinners and everything about us is sinful apart from Jesus . We're gonna continue to be proud people are . We're gonna . We're going to gravitate that way .

Ray Comfort

Pride is so stupid , because What have we got to be proud about ? and I find there's something far more subtle than pride , and that's conceit . Hmm , con with seat Conceals itself yeah it whispers to you . It doesn't blatantly talk about pride , it just says you yeah you know you're doing a good job .

Oscar Navarro

Pat you mentioned , you'd rather talk about how to identify it . Yeah , how do we detect it in our own lives ?

Pat Nemmers

I think there's a scripture be nice if we use you know , what does the Bible say on this ? Yeah , it helps a little bit here , right ? So so Proverbs 22 I think it's verse 2 , right , no 26 , verse 2 26 verse 2 says it's a strange little metaphor , word analogy like the flying swallow , the flitting sparrow , a curse with no cause will not light , right , and so I can literally

Dangers of Pride and Heart Truth

Pat Nemmers

talk about this . I was , i was at a camp a number of years ago . We went into one of the dorms of the camp . There , about five of us guys , we're all staying in this big room .

Pat Nemmers

You know , in comes a swallow and I mean it's darting , we look like a bunch of little teenage girls . Just , you know you're ducking in every this bird's flying all over the place , but it never rusted , it never sat , it never , it never roosted or whatever you want to call , whatever they say that they . It didn't light Out the door . It finally went and as soon as it went I thought I thought of Proverbs 26 , verse 2 , and I thought that's the meaning . I mean , when somebody curses us and we are not guilty , it doesn't light upon us . We don't feel guilt , we don't sense that in your heart , saying I'm I'm wrong , even though I might not admit it in the moment . Yeah , but the opposite is also true . So if it does light when Ray comfort says something to me , because we're really close friends , because we were just talking about that wonderful meeting we had for the first time , he didn't even remember the meeting .

Pat Nemmers

But anyway , let's just pretend we were really close friends and Ray said something to me That was con and you know . You know what I'm talking about . In the moment You got to take yourself to the moment somebody says something to you . I did not appreciate what you said or the way you looked or the way you acted and in your heart There's that sense of you feel , that inner lawyer that Paul David trip talks about , just sort of welling up in you . You start getting a little defensive . That's how I judge whether I'm guilty to some degree About the accusation and if I can detect that in the moment that's the time to confess it , that's the time to humble yourself and say You know you're right . Yeah , if I could add one little thing . This is a little something anecdotal , it's not about me .

Pat Nemmers

Where I love telling this story There's a guy's name is Don Godwin . He's 84 years old and I came 25 years ago , so he was considerably younger then . He was a deacon in our church And he was one of these guys who was renowned , very respectable man in the community , a great businessman , but also just very strong convictions about everything I'm everything biblical and extra biblical . We were in a deacon meeting I can mention by name because he knows this story and I love telling this story . We're in this deacon meeting . There's about 10 or 12 of us , maybe 15 of us . We were gonna bring Wait for it drums onto the platform , double bass , yeah . And so I'm the one who put this is like 20 some years ago , and I'm the one who put it forth , you know , because the other guy next to me didn't have the guts to do so . So I put it forth and Don lit up the room . I mean , he lit it up , his face got red , he preached against the drums why we shouldn't do this and , odd , and it was just so out of line . There was this pause . You could , you could cut the air with a knife . And I said , don , you were completely out of line . Well , you should be ashamed of yourself for the way you just talked just now .

Pat Nemmers

And I went on say a few more things . And that's when you could cut the air with a knife . And everybody just waiting , collectively . What's going to happen . Yeah , don Godwin , sitting opposite of me , looked at everybody table . He went like this , put his head down , slowly , raised it back up . He said you're absolutely right , pastor . I sinned against everyone here . Will you please forgive me ?

Ray Comfort

Oh , that just makes you admire the guy , doesn't it ?

Pat Nemmers

Yeah we became best friends Yeah yeah , i've said ever since , and I want to be like Don when I have been beating his drums .

Oscar Navarro

He's actually the drummer .

Emeal Zwayne

Well , you know , the thing about pride is that it's kind of like a snowball rolling downhill . You know , once you start to feed it and you just let it go , with that momentum It just grows and grows . And he had a decision to make at that very moment And I'm sure in his heart Maybe he wrestled during that brief pause , like , am I gonna say , no , this is , or am I gonna just pause and recognize Okay , it's just beautiful when that , when that moment happens , yeah , god is honored , yeah , and you know , maybe , even if you , maybe , if you were right , that gives you the opportunity to go back and reexamine . It gives us others the opportunity to cool off and maybe during the discussion They can recognize Oh , maybe he did make some points . But when we fight back with that ugly pride , that self Justification because that's what we try to do , you know we try to make ourselves out to sound good . It's like the guy that I was witnessing to down at Huntington , jewish guy named Daven . In fact , we have the video on our YouTube channel . It has almost half a million views And this guy was Adamant that there's no such thing as absolute truth .

Emeal Zwayne

Hmm . So I'm saying , daven , are you sure about that ? So then I go down the road with my cell key It's an analogy Ray uses , let's say , down , let's say I were to say , okay , the Sun is blue , it's square , it's freezing cold , and it comes out at night , mm-hmm . And he goes well , yeah , well , actually it could , could , and . And then he stops and he goes no , yeah , it's like , but , but that's what probably does . It just keeps going Yeah , it's so stupid , makes no sense , but no , no , and this and that , and you know , yeah .

Pat Nemmers

And if I could come back to the moment , you , you , just again , this is a , this is a lost man , even responding in the moment I yeah , this doesn't make any sense what I'm saying here , you know .

Pat Nemmers

I don't know . I think this might be in the book , but there's . I have a quote from CS Lewis to me . I love this , one of my favorite quotes of his regarding that whole moment . He says surely what a man does when he has taken off his guard is the best evidence for what sort of man he is ? Surely what pops out before the man has time to put on a disguise is the truth . If there are rats in , this is a great illustration . If there are rats in a cellar , you are most likely to see them if you go in very suddenly . But the suddenness does not create the rats , it only prevents them from hiding . Isn't that good , wow ? in the same way , the suddenness of the Provocation does not make me an ill-tempered man . It only shows me that I am an ill-tempered man . I love that the rats are always there in the cellar , but if you go in shouting and noisily , they will have taken cover before you switch on the light .

Ray Comfort

Is that from me a Christianity ? Maybe it is in this book actually what a great .

Oscar Navarro

I remember coming across it . I'm gonna be yeah , it's it's a whole illustration .

Emeal Zwayne

You know , with the water bottles that look identical And it looks like they just have pure drinking water in them . You take one , you shake it . What's in ? it same thing you saw before pure drinking water . Take the other one , shake it now . You see muddy , cloudy , dirty water . The shaking did not add or take away anything . It only revealed what was already there and settled at the bottom . Yep , and as I often say , you know , the heart is the sin Factory and the sin warehouse . It's where sin is produced and it's where it's stored . And the danger is when it's stored . You don't see it right . It's not like out there in the factory , but it's in the warehouse , in the back , stored on those shelves , and when we're shaken it comes up great , and now we're starting to run short in time And I really want to get to my favorite chapter of the book so I shift gears a little bit , which was the last chapter , because it finally ended No , i'm kidding , wow .

Oscar Navarro

No , chapter 4 was was my favorite chapter of the lure of legalism . Ah , and I want to quote something here , quote two parts of chapter 4 , because this was really good , it stirred me up , so I was very .

Pat Nemmers

If the list at the back Sturge you up , oscar , the list of all those that you might , you might be a Yeah , that's really good .

Oscar Navarro

Actually , maybe that that'll be you'll . You'll help with the response to this . So here's what you say . You say back then , referring to Sort of your early years of preaching . You said I was zealous about all things spiritual , but not always biblical . I loved the Bible and prided myself on preaching it accurately and fervently , but I also took extra biblical positions on dress , movies , marriage , divorce , alcohol , who did and didn't baptize , and , yes , music . The steady stream of people coming to know Jesus , being baptized by me Of course , and filling up the church felt wonderful , exciting and glorious . Those results may have been the reason several of God's people chose to turn a blind eye to my extra biblical Excesses . I began gathering a legalistic army of faithful , well intentioned followers who not only followed Jesus but also followed me . Looking back , the problem was that I'm not Sure how carefully I was following Jesus or his word on a number of those extra biblical Topics . And then , real quick , later on , you say and here's where you really drive at home .

Oscar Navarro

I think human nature struggles to let God be God or let the Bible say what the Bible says . Human nature loves to go beyond the word of God . While priding myself on being the Bible guy , i became what author Larry Osborne calls an accidental Pharisee . I unintentionally added human reasoning to several things God had always addressed in scripture , and only as clearly as I saw fit . I Think this is so valuable , going back to pride , the humility that you have in chapter 4 and the recognition of those , those prideful things and , in Larry Osborne's phrase , accidental Pharisee .

Oscar Navarro

How has ? Because when I go online and I see young Christians wanting to gain their little 10,000 following , i See them take something that a faithful pastor said Within balance of a sermon and then blowing that up into something else and and what I see often is Legalists . And the problem is , is those legalists because they're so Harsh ? that's exactly what causes them to gain a following , because there's they're so cutting . How has social media added to that issue and how can we avoid Becoming a social media Pharisee for the sake of following , wow ?

Pat Nemmers

First of all , thanks for reading that excerpt . That again , you're getting my entire heart in my life Coming out of that legalism . By the way , you can be a legalist because you're ultra conservative or you can be legalistic on The other end of the spectrum as well . It's just going beyond the word of God . I mean this is I always think of what the apostle Paul said . He said don't go beyond what is written in first grade .

Pat Nemmers

Yeah yeah , that's a powerful statement . I think I have that in that chapter as well

Pat Nemmers

. But social media is such a rat trap . I mean it's such all it's . I mean too , i mean it's again It's it can be used for God's glory and needs to be used for God's glory . I just read something easy popped up just the other day , great quote from somebody you were reading .

Pat Nemmers

But those are the kind of things people know they're gonna get a following if they say something provocative . I think we can avoid it . Don't jump on . I never get into social media arguments , ever . I never get into . I mean , i refuse to get into argument and I was . I've been baited more than once and I have been tempted to jump in there to justify myself or something , but I just stay away from those things . To me , what , what is first ? Peter 2 , 15 says by your good works you put to silence the ignorance of foolish men . So just keep doing what is honoring to God and let those guys will , let them chew on their bones . Yeah , they're not gonna go very far .

Oscar Navarro

I think it's a weird thing . Sorry , real quick , just to close that up . I think it's a weird thing because you know , normally you've got the prop . I mean , you know what it's like to disciple guys into pastoral positions and church planning , right , you have a season time of cultivating their hearts , discipling them , of bringing them to places of repentance , of helping them to understand humility before they ever get to the pulpit . And the weird thing about social media is that anybody , who's a new believer or not , can just hop on there and gain a following right , without the right discipleship , without elders to care for them , without There's no , there's just no balance , you know , and yet these people end up becoming the next big , you know , christian . In What's the word I'm looking for ? influencer , influencer , right , because they've got 10 20,000 followers and they've got no balance , they've got no care , they've misunderstood the gospel .

Ray Comfort

And what they like to do is put people in public stocks . Yeah , Yeah absolutely .

Oscar Navarro

And so , yeah , i think , i think our hearts , we need to be not everyone . Everybody today could have a massive social media following , but not everybody should , right .

Pat Nemmers

So there's no shortage of a plenicist out there , and and they'll continue to be , but they just , if you've been around long enough and most of us here have , you see them . They'll rise for so long and then they'll just like a balloon , they'll pop , they just don't I mean the mark Driscoll's . I'm sorry I was dropping his name , i mean sure .

Pat Nemmers

I mean this guy , this guy was , he was the bee's knees for so long . What a communicator , what wit , how mean so funny , and I would listen to some of his messages Just because that , just because everybody else was and I , the arrogance just kept coming out . It's just so troubling to my soul . Yeah , i worried , like what you're saying here , my Oscar . I worried what's gonna happen if you , i mean , something's got to give . Yeah , he didn't fall into immorality or anything . I'm thankful for that , but he became a power monger and it brought him down . I mean , god , god Resist the proud . Yeah , gives grace to the humble , and that's gonna flesh out eventually .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , yeah , you know , ray , the passage that Pat cited about putting to silence , you know , those who Revile you . That's been a big one for you over the years by our good works .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , yeah , it's got to say mention bees knees . I love that saying because that's where the honey is These knees carries ? the honey around . By your good works you put to silence the ignorance of foolish men . And One way to silence the mouth of an atheist is to take into lunch You just how many double double straight to lunch or dinner .

Emeal Zwayne

Oh , 40 of them , 40 .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , it was one of the most highlights of my life . Mark Spence came with me and 40 atheists had lunch with them down in Orange County .

Pat Nemmers

That's so cool and what happens .

Ray Comfort

I called the waiter over . I said give me the bell . He didn't speak English and I got my access is give me the bell and he's going to use a . Oh , i just come over here . I said I want he brought .

Oscar Navarro

He brought his manager , named Bill , over .

Pat Nemmers

This is Bill .

Ray Comfort

He actually got the message gaming bill and I and I paid for the whole thing with credit card . And then I had atheists , one after the other , coming up to me at that dinner and saying Thank you so much . Hmm , and it was worth a thousand sermons . It really was , because atheists don't do that for each other . Christians do it all the time , but atheists is just .

Pat Nemmers

You know , you get what you get don't be overcome with evil , but overcome evil with good , you are fleshing that out .

Ray Comfort

Well it was . It just made me want to burst with joy . Oh man , doing that , yeah .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , and Pat , i really love chapter one , zeal without knowledge . And the reason why I really love this book is because It gives the zealous believer truth that will be The foundation for humility . And and I love this quote , this is on page 19 , under cultivating humility , says zeal can be a good thing when grounded in truth , but it can also be spiritually blinding , misdirecting our drive and passion . Scripture speaks about people who were blinded by zeal . Peter cut off a man's ear And his misdirected zeal and Paul acknowledged his own zeal prior to salvation . And then you go on to quote Paul there . But giving that truth that helps Believers who are in that kind of stage K cage stage , if you would , you know And whatever it is that they're so hot about , to step back , to look at those who've gone before us , the mistakes They've made , to learn from those mistakes and to change course and to be in a place where we're primed to receive the grace of God that Fills our life with that zest that we need and that really lubricates our lives so that we're we're active for him in a powerful way .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , and I love what Randy Elkhorn said . He said humility isn't pretending We're unworthy because it's spiritual , it's recognizing we're unworthy . Because it's true , and he said , the worst we realize we are , the greater we realize God's grace is , and I've said this before . You know , when I ask the Lord to show me more of him and less of me , he shows me more of me , which makes me want less of me and more of him . Hmm , amen . He opens up our hearts , reveals to us the filth it's inside , so that we can say , lord , i want nothing to do with me , i want all that you have . I repent of of the , the stench of my pride , and , lord , when I'm Humiliated because of my pride , because that's usually why we're humiliated , help me to be humble and then help me to do what your friend did in that meeting and Back up to admit my fault and then to receive growth by God's grace .

Emeal Zwayne

Well , there you have it , friends retraction , cultivating humility after .

Oscar Navarro

Humiliation , retraction It is you ?

Emeal Zwayne

I mean , again , we got an eraser on here . It looks like there's really the stuff that comes off of an eraser . Brilliant cover , really . Thank you , i love it . So , friends , i didn't share any comments today or or plug any resource . Oh well , that's how it goes , get used to it . Oh well , you can't get the Living Waters podcast mug And the evidence study Bible . Living waters calm you like that ray ? no Well thank you for joining us .

Emeal Zwayne

Pat , thanks for coming on , thanks for having me to bring in Marilyn What a joy . and yeah , friends , there you have it . Thank you for joining us . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast , where we and Pat because he's humble have no idea What we're doing .