Emeal Zwayne

And so , pat , this book gets down to the nitty gritty of the tragedies that sometimes strike , and what we want to talk about today is how do we strike back ? How do we , as believers , get to a place where , when the tragedies strike , we can actually cling to the Lord and not just survive but thrive in a way that honors the Lord in it , even in the midst of pain , even in the midst of lament and brokenness , how can we persevere through that ? And so I'd love you to open that up for us and just kind of hit some of the highlights from your book on that .

Pat Nemmers

Well , you're alluding to a chapter that I wrote titled How to See in the Dark , and that's not just a clever title of a chapter . it really was me . I mean , some things are just never seen , spiritually speaking , until we're in a dark place . We're in that dark night of the soul , so to speak . whatever it may be , for me it was the day my wife of 16 years , who gave me seven children her name was Nina had a heart attack and literally died in my arms .

Emeal Zwayne

We knew , friends , that you couldn't get enough of him last time . So back by popular demand is the one , the only , the frozen chosen , patrick Nemmers . Pat , you're back . It's great to be back with you guys . Now you know why I called you the frozen chosen . Yeah , why was that ? Because you come from the land of the frozen . You come from Des Moines , iowa , which I went to , as I mentioned in the last podcast where I spoke for you , and it was crazy to leave the coffee shop with a hot tea in my hand and it's iced tea by the time I reached my car .

Emeal Zwayne

You know you're in a cold place .

Pat Nemmers

That was a brutal February , as I recall , but right now , as we speak , it's like 80 degrees , beautiful , sunny , everything's blooming in Iowa . You need to come visit us .

Emeal Zwayne

Oh , pat , i gotta show these guys the videos we sent each other , remember , after Rachel and I came back . He sends me a video of himself sitting out on his lawn chair with like a foot of snow and snow coming down . He's in like a tank top or t-shirt .

Ray Comfort

I think he showed me that .

Emeal Zwayne

Oh , yeah , it's snowing to beat the band . And remember I sent you mine . I had like this coat on and you know , like a beanie on my head .

Pat Nemmers

Palm trees in the back . Oh , it's the whole paddle freezing .

Emeal Zwayne

It's like a sunny day and nice palm trees . Yeah , that was fun . That was fun . But , friends , if you didn't listen to the last podcast and if you didn't repent , we had Pat Nemmers on And we talked about his fabulous book Retractions Cultivating Humility After Humiliation . We're gonna talk more about the book today And we're gonna talk today about how to strike back when tragedy strikes . We're gonna talk about some tragic things that happened in your life and how we can press on through those , and I'm really excited to do that . But , by the way , friends , if you don't know where to get this , Amazon you can find it there right back Amazon , really good book .

Ray Comfort

All were ever good books to solve . That's for other poor folks that are Amazon shadow .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , so we're gonna get into at this time . I'm gonna do it .

Oscar Navarro

Your local bookstore is the answer to that question What local bookstores ?

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , hardly any left anymore , but we're gonna get into comments and everything , but before that , ray Comfort has a story about our good friend .

Ray Comfort

Mark Lloyd . Mark Lloyd is in Ireland at the moment and he just sent me a picture of a restaurant , a Thai food restaurant , and the restaurant is called Thai .

Emeal Zwayne

Tanak . Oh , you know what I was- .

Pat Nemmers

It's a real dive .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , yeah , yeah , the food goes down well .

Emeal Zwayne

Thai Tanak . Yeah , I was at in Texas , the San Antonio area , and there was a tea shop called Nobile Tea .

Ray Comfort

No , not smart , Yeah , really smart I like retractions has the word tracked right in the middle . Ooh , it's an evangelism book .

Pat Nemmers

It's an evangelism book That's very subtle .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , yeah . So , pat , before we . Oh well , i'm gonna read a comment . I better do that real quick . This is from Bubba one two , one , zero , zero .

Emeal Zwayne

Powerful and motivating podcasts . I fallen in love with this gem of a podcast after stumbling upon it a few months ago . God has used it to immensely grow my evangelism and prayer life . For a couple of years I've been using Living Waters Tract and Biblical Evangelism Methods and have been greatly inspired by your witnessing videos . I've always been amazed by all you guys do , but by listening to this podcast I came to realize the humility , prayer , passion , servitude and biblical truth that powers the Living Waters machine . Such a blessing to have great perspectives on all these moving and vital topics . I also love how you guys keep it fun but are always reverent and in awe of God , like when you guys bring up lightning and how it displays God's frightening power . Lightning is my favorite natural phenomenon , closely followed by thunder . In conclusion , i always know I'll have a laugh when I tune in , but , more importantly , every podcast leaves me convicted , motivated and to motivate and motivate , to serve and yearn to pray .

Ray Comfort

I'm proud he mentions our humility . That was lovely .

Emeal Zwayne

I know , after this book I feel so so Great segue .

Oscar Navarro

Yeah .

Emeal Zwayne

EOR The Tank is how we side EOR The Tank listen EOR .

Oscar Navarro

Thank you for that , but also to our listeners . Thank you because , if you noticed the beginning of that comment , he said he stumbled upon this podcast . That stumbling upon the podcast happens because of you listeners , which faithfully download and listen , which faithfully subscribe to the podcast and leave comments and reviews and forward and share them on your social media profiles . Every time you do that , You trigger the algorithms to make it possible that more and more people can listen to gospel saturated Conversations . And so , thank you . And if you haven't already , one of the best ways you can bless us is by hitting the subscribe button on whatever area You know , whether you're on Spotify or apple podcast or one of the other ones . Subscribe and Leave a comment for us . Uh , it'll , it'll bless us and it'll certainly bless , make people stumble .

Ray Comfort

I love that .

Oscar Navarro

Yeah , friends stumbling block , block of grace .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , and again you are by listening to the podcast . You're , you're keeping us at at , you know , one of the top spots of all podcasts in the world , not not just at a christian podcast or spirituality and religion , but but like of all podcasts .

Oscar Navarro

So we're , we're so grateful for that and shout out real quick to you know , we were just in London and I met podcast listeners from Ireland , from Finland , from Africa , from Canada , and so just a shout out to all of you who are downloading and listening in all of these countries all around the world . We are so humbled and blessed that you would listen to us silly goofballs here in southern California .

Emeal Zwayne

Hey , by the way , a shout out to my peeps in Lebanon . The podcast recently hit number 16 Of all christian podcast and let on number 30 out of all religions and all spirituality stuff , which includes everything . So we are so humbled . Thank you for listening and send me some tabooly . Please Buy the crate loads . Yeah , no , not for oscar . I banned you from baklava . You know that . All right , friends , make sure to check out the vault . The vault contains a hundred copies of a unique , conveniently sized gospel of john that uses a very eye catching cover to stir Curiosity . I don't know who wrote that on our staff , but it's nice . Ray Um , we're so glad we did this . In fact , last night I was watching the video that we did when we went out and we threw him out of the car And we're in the warehouse and packing them up . A million of these were distributed to people all over the world .

Ray Comfort

Pat , you know we'll be talking about yes , i do , i do .

Pat Nemmers

That's amazing .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , gospel of john , make sure you revolt be revolting , yeah , um revolt .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , it's got . It looks like a stack of money , uh , with a band around , type of thing . We are brad , snow did an amazing job with that and uh , so , friends , get those . It's , it's a big thing . It looks like a vault the box and uh , oh , we have , oh , and if you're watching it's back there , if you're listening , it's still back . Yeah , it's still back there too . So make sure to check it out . And don't forget the living waters podcast . Yeah , we have them , friends , you can drink out of them . Oscar is about to take a sip . He's a hand model right now . Pat's about to take a sip .

Ray Comfort

We should watch those , that one .

Oscar Navarro

The water tastes better coming off .

Emeal Zwayne

of course , yes , and don't forget the evidence study bible all at makewaters dot com .

Ray Comfort

Pat , you didn't laugh at yourself , he was delayed time release laughter .

Emeal Zwayne

So , pat , um , i'd love for you to tell us , before we jump into the book and uh talk about tragedy and how to strike back . Uh , tell us about how you encountered ray , comfort and living waters and found out about our ministry .

Pat Nemmers

Well , living waters wasn't going at the time , but it would be like 1991 92 . I was a younger pastor in those days .

Emeal Zwayne

Obviously Yeah , it was going . By the way , ray started it in new zealand in the 70s , was it really ?

Pat Nemmers

going then 1974 . Did it have any traction ?

Ray Comfort

It actually started , you know , way back in the time of christ actually . Oh well there you go .

Pat Nemmers

That's true . I was actually at a pastors event , for all pastors and all day pastors Seminar . It was up in , uh , san Jose Yeah , it was it , no , it was in minnesota , oh , wow . And uh , in the middle of the seminar , uh , talking about this new , creative way to present the gospel , suddenly up comes this new zealander And I was introduced for the first time to a younger version , but not much Like I was ugly in those days You age so well .

Ray Comfort

Things have got much better These are white suits or jacks ? No no , it was a white jacket , but I didn't wear a white suit . That's like Benny Hinn .

Oscar Navarro

I do miss the uh Tom Selleck must have .

Pat Nemmers

But , we , i heard , hell's best kept secret . Then it was . I don't know what venue you were sharing . In fact , i I haven't been able to find that venue , that it was shown that day , because it was it was a hotel .

Ray Comfort

I think it was a hotel It was fantastic .

Pat Nemmers

I was absolutely enamored with your speaking , your presentation of the gospel , the importance of the law as it pertains to the gospel message , and bringing conviction and that illustration , that plain illustration , that's one of the best conjured up illustrations I have ever heard , and I'm not saying that facetiously . That was very powerful me . I went right back to the church I pastored in those days and shared it .

Ray Comfort

So thank you very much . Thank you for the encouragement .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , we've been blown away by how many people that message has reached . I mean , there was a time when an organization called firefighters for christ . They were big on duplicating back then cassette tapes and then cds .

Pat Nemmers

But I believe our friend , charlie , who we talked about in the last podcast , came to christ listening to that cassette tape . he did Wow .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , yeah . charlie , our good , dear friend , who I got to know , uh wanted to go to dinner one night and we went to dinner and that's where he said to me You know , hey , i'm starting a church and it's going to be about friendship and food and fellowship and fitness and whatever the f's were .

Ray Comfort

Bluffles , yeah . Finance .

Emeal Zwayne

He had all this Bluffle , bluffle Yeah and I go , man houston , we got a problem . Does this guy know the lord ? So I go . You know , charlie , church is supposed to be christocentric and about g , you know , he's like , oh , he got kind of offended when he you laugh , i mean he shares his testimony . So i'm like , all right , i got to get this guy some stuff . So I started out with house mess , kept secret and , lo and behold , charlie realized , oh , i'm not saved . And so he , he got saved and that's such a healthy , sound , wonderful church . Yeah , it's called lakeshore city church . By the way , friends , it's out there in corona , so check it out if you're in that area . He can't go wrong there . So , yeah , so , um , what was I saying ? I have no idea . I don't remember . I was going to say something , whatever .

Ray Comfort

All right , no idea what you're doing anyway .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , we don't , do he ? um , by the way , do you see that pat on the mug ? Yeah , there it is . We have no idea what we're doing .

Ray Comfort

Oh , we also have someone else in stereo . It's very , very special , but mcuddy's dropped and he's right behind you .

Emeal Zwayne

Oh , yeah , bartholomew is here . Welcome , bart Oscar . Tell the people about bart .

Oscar Navarro

Uh , his name is bart . Yeah , bart's out here from Nashville , tennessee . Um , he's our newest employee here for living waters . He's a development officer . We're super excited . One of the great things about bart that we recognize right off the bat is that , uh , he loves this ministry . He goes back along . He's a new employee of this ministry No more than a week , but he goes back as a faithful servant at ambassadors academies and I talked to bart and it's like he knows everybody , you know . He's like , oh , yeah , todd freel and this guy and joe bob , and And so we're really excited for him to be here with us , to be employed And uh , maybe one day , listener , you'll be able to meet the famous bart mcuddy .

Pat Nemmers

Yeah , you say joe bob . I mean , does he know the waltons ?

Ray Comfort

I think so pretty close with the waltons .

Oscar Navarro

Yeah , billy bob and joe bob .

Emeal Zwayne

All right friends , time to jump into it . Uh , this is going to be , i think , a much needed heavy episode , because sometimes we need to face realities , believers , and , uh , we need to get real about the things that are real . And Tragedy is a real part of the christian faith . We've talked about it before in the podcast , you know we have the word faith preachers the prosperity preachers the name it claim it . Preachers who tell us that , no , the christian life should be one of affluence and of blessings and of favorable circumstances , that those are really the signs of God's blessings on your life , his favor on your life . But that's a bunch of hogwash . If you want to really look at scripture , you're gonna see that those that were often most used by the lord Were those that went through some of the most difficult circumstances .

Emeal Zwayne

Just read Hebrews 11 and read the end of Hebrews 11 And see what they went through , but through faith , real faith in christ , not faith and faith

Thriving in Tragedy as Believers

Emeal Zwayne

. God did great things , and so pat this book . It gets down to the nitty gritty of the tragedies that sometimes strike , and what we want to talk about today is how do we strike back ? How do we , as believers , get to a place where , when the tragedies strike , we can actually Cling to the lord and not just survive But thrive in a way that honors the lord in it , even in the midst of pain , even in the midst of lament And brokenness . How can we persevere through that ? And so I'd love you to open that up for us and just kind of hit some of the highlights From your book on that .

Pat Nemmers

Well , you're alluding to a chapter that I I wrote , titled how to see in the dark , and that that's not just a clever title of a chapter . It really was me , i mean I . Some things are just never seen , spiritually speaking , until we're in a dark place . We're , we're in that dark night of the soul , so to speak , wherever it may be . For me , it was the , the day my wife of 16 years , who gave me seven children Her name was Nina had a heart attack and literally died in my arms . We were in the middle of our very first ministry . We were about 10 years in and our church had quadrupled in size . Now , the first week , there were only 27 people .

Ray Comfort

So I don't want you to get any exuberant amounts , you know .

Pat Nemmers

in fact , the second week there was 21 people . I called my brothers and said Hey , this thing's going backwards .

Ray Comfort

I feel your pain . Get in there . I feel your pain . I was in the church that went down to nine on a Sunday night and the pianist was sick . It was awful You had to play the piano . No , we went without piano . Yeah , but I feel your pain .

Pat Nemmers

So , but as we faithfully preached the gospel , as God did bless , the church did start to grow and we were out in the middle of . No , we weren't at the end of the world , but you could pretty much see the end of the world from where I pastored a very rural area And we were running over 100 people , which was just unbelievable in those days And we were rejoicing . We were building a brand new facility . We hadn't borrowed any money for it . It was really a cool . Even the community was taking note of what was going on And my wife saw the foundation of that building that we were about to erect .

Pat Nemmers

And then what happened was I got back from a speaking at a high school retreat I'd been gone for four days in Northern Minnesota came back and it was just chatting it up with my wife . We were just spending some time together . In fact , just a few weeks earlier , we were sitting in bed talking about all the tragedies that occurred in different people's lives And we just sort of we were sort of arrested by the fact that neither one of us had ever had a tragedy in our lives And you know , unbeknownst to me , i had one coming right around the corner . And so on February or rather February , it was actually July 15th 1995 , i got a phone call from a gal on our who had just become a Christian a few weeks earlier . She asked me if I would pray for her dad who was in the hospital with a heart condition . I said I would and I will . But I asked her . I said . I said , brenda , is your dad a Christian ? She said no , i don't believe he is . And I said , brenda , you know the scriptures is . You know , don't boast about tomorrow . You don't know what a day will bring forth . You need to tell your dad about Jesus . And I share the gospel with him .

Pat Nemmers

And I don't think what I said was harsh or unloving . It was certainly true . But I hung up the phone that night And that there was about six o'clock at night and it was four and a half . Five and a half hours later . That very verse would come to roost upon me When my wife of 16 years , who gave me seven children , literally died in my arms And so she had a heart attack . It was there was no precursor , there was no family history , it was just absolute in a heartbeat , literally our life , our lives returned upside down . So when that happened , the moment there was just so many things I could talk about at this point . I mean , probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life was to tell my children We had seven children .

Oscar Navarro

That's the part that I wanted you to tell the listeners , because the moment in the book when you have to wake up , i think your daughter was like 13 years old . I'm getting emotional thinking about it right now . Could you , if you feel comfortable , could you share sort of that process in that moment ?

Pat Nemmers

Yeah , that's the part of the book that very few people have been able to read without shedding a tear . And she was 14 and she's obviously a mother today with several children . But she was 14 , my oldest , and I had to start with her about three in the morning . Her mother had just died a few hours earlier . I just returned from the hospital And now that was the task before me . I didn't know what to do . I thought I don't dare wait till morning . The last words they ever heard from their mother was I love you That night , that night I mean , this is what parents say to their children before they kiss them goodnight And that's the last word they ever heard from their mom . And the first word she heard from me was I actually went into her room .

Pat Nemmers

Her bedroom was a closet I mean , this was a small farmhouse we lived in , but it wasn't , when you think closet , it was a large closet , but for a 14 year old it was a mansion because she had her own room finally And I went into her room and the hall room light was on and I just left the door open So you could just the shaft of light was coming in . I didn't want to alarm her . I sat next to her and I just sort of stroked her hair And I said , sarah , she was just slowly waking her up . And of course then she woke up , she was startled , but I didn't know what to say . I mean , i'm a pastor , love theology , love the word of God , love God , want to say the right things at the right time . I just didn't know how to put it . And I mean , i just said , honey , i have some very , very sad news to share with you . And now she's starting to wake up . I can go there . This is why it's very emotional for me , because I sort of put myself there And she's sitting up and I said , honey , your mommy just went to heaven And now she's like what ? And I said , honey , i don't know how to say this , but I told her what happened and how her mommy had died . And I could just hear her pathetic line oh mommy , oh mommy . You know , and that was very hard . It was hard to tell the other kids , but to tell a 14 year old who loved her mom and was very , very close to her is very hard , very difficult . To tell my next oldest as well , but that was difficult And it was a very , very , very long night , and so we I laid next to her , we got through the night .

Pat Nemmers

I told the rest of the little ones earlier . I didn't wake them up in the middle of the night . I told the rest of the little ones earlier . I didn't wake them up in the middle of the night . But just to tell you . I mean to get to the question itself . So a couple of things took place . I mean , can I ask you before ? Yes , please .

Oscar Navarro

Just because we're talking about tragedy and sort of in the storm of it , tragedy rocks people in so many different ways . Can you recall what your prayers sounded like that night , just as you're , as you're going to bed ? I mean , what was that like ?

Pat Nemmers

Oscar , i wish I could answer that question definitively . I think I was in an absolute days . I mean I was talking with God throughout the night , but Probably relatively incoherently . I probably was relying on that . You know Romans , romans 8 , you know the Holy Spirit Making intercession we cannot be at , which cannot be uttered , and so , but I can tell you this , at about 8 o'clock in the morning . I say this because I know what I would be like without it .

Pat Nemmers

I I've read my Bible every day since since September 6 , 1982 , every . There's never been . I don't leave the home without reading my Bible . That sounds legalistic . I don't mean it to be legalistic , i just know myself and I have to hear from God . So I tell you that at 8 in the morning I opened my Bible to Psalm 69 .

Pat Nemmers

I was in Psalm 68 the day before and I read the very beginning save me , oh God , for the waters have come up to my neck . I'm weary from my crying . He's like totally describing me in the moment . And Then I read verse 6 and I'm telling you , oscar , easy , ray , you talk about being arrested . Verse 6 says David writes let not those he said , let not those who wait upon you Become ashamed because of me . Let not those who seek you become ashamed because of me .

Pat Nemmers

And I literally pulled myself back from the kitchen counter where I was reading that and I said , god , are you challenging me in the early moments of my bereavement ? That's that prayer I remember distinctly Because it , you know . David is saying People are watching him . And it was almost as if God was saying to me Pat , there's gonna be a lot of sympathetic eyes out there . You're 37 years old . You got seven kids , ages 14 down to one . Our one year old had just been weaned from his mother one week earlier . Yeah , she just saw him walk a couple days earlier . Before that , maybe I was gonna be an instant novelty . It was almost like God was saying You're gonna have a lot of sympathetic eyes , but they're gonna be watchful eyes . They're gonna want to see if this gray stuff you've been preaching really works . Wow , and of course it does . But I was challenged in the early moments of my bereavement , right then .

Emeal Zwayne

Wow , ray . As I looked across and you know tears were streaming down my eyes I saw the same was happening with you . I mean , you've gone through difficulty and ministry , but that takes it to a whole other level .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , i . I just thinking about how , when you , when I get arrived at a hotel room , one of the first things I look at and it's against my nature to do this , because I'm so sort of shallow and flippant I go to the door and find out where the exit is during a fire . Because knowledge is incredibly powerful in such a situation . Because if you're in a fire in a hotel and it there's just been one in New Zealand were about a dozen people died . They were trapped in there , couldn't get out , and it's because of the fact that when there's a Fire in an upper story , it fills with smoke and if you take one breath of that smoke it's full of carcinogens . You're gonna die . So the first thing you have to do in your darkness is hit the floor , because that's where the oxygen is , and when we find ourselves in the darkness of tragedy , that's where you've got to do hit the floor because , that's where the oxygen is .

Ray Comfort

Get close to God on your knees . And I was thinking of that because you look at the word tragedy and right in the middle of it is the word age , and it's just . It's gonna come to all of us , no matter what age we are . There's gonna be tragedy , hit us and if you've either got your house built on rock or your house built on sand , and this world Collapses all around us because they haven't built their lives on the teachings of Jesus , yeah , amen .

How to See in the Dark

Emeal Zwayne

You know , pat , i did want to read this portion and I'd like you to Kind of get into it a little bit . You highlighted it .

Oscar Navarro

I think it's the same exact one I have highlighted . Is it yeah ?

Emeal Zwayne

okay , i like you no , i'm excited , but , but this is where you're describing what happened with your daughter , and You said Her sorrow was indescribable Oh mommy , oh mommy . She repeated over and over for how long , i can't remember . I only recall holding her and weeping with her for a long time . To this day , i weep every time . I recall the heart Rending moment , which I avoid doing any more often than I need to . The reality is , though , that I do need to .

Emeal Zwayne

The death of Nina produced a number of retractions in my life , and almost all of them had to do with my own lack of compassion . There , i've said it I was not a very compassionate Christian , much less Pastor . Don't misunderstand , i thought I was compassionate . If you had asked me , before the day my wife died , whether I was compassionate , i would have replied in the affirmative . I could easily have supplied a list of situations and circumstances in which I had demonstrated some semblance of compassion multiple hospital calls and upholding those experiencing broken relationships , deaths of loved ones , even births gone tragically wrong . In each case , i brought God's word and its answer , his answers to the moment , and then you go on from there , but I'd love for you to speak to that , the , the growth of Compassion in your heart through what you went through and how you realized you weren't that compassionate person before .

Pat Nemmers

Well , that is Thanks for asking that , because the beginning of the title is how to see in the dark . This is how . This is how God revealed some of those character flaws in my life through Nothing less than the death of my wife . What you just read is exactly the truth . I mean , i , i did all of those things . But remember what I said just before hours before my wife died , i had had a conversation with this young lady whose father was in trouble , his heart was in trouble , and I gave him that quote from Proverbs 27, . You know , you know , don't boast about tomorrow , because you don't know what a day will bring forth . That was a true statement , but I can't honestly say it was a heartfelt statement and I think that the death of my wife Allowed me to see some of my own darkness and my the necessity of becoming a compassionate man . That was the big in .

Pat Nemmers

There are other areas that God dealt with with me intolerance and things like that but The compassion part was huge and you know , one of the things he did to kind of rectify it was He allowed me to remarry a few years later to Marilyn , my wife , who's in studio and she's watching this , but she is one of the most compassionate people you'll ever know . You already know ? Oh , yeah , absolutely , but I I feed off of her compassion and I think it got so . In other words , god doesn't just reveal to you your need , in this case , for to be more compassionate , but then he I love God then supplies the , the ability to be able to , not just internally , through the spirit of God and the word of God , but he puts the people in your life that will help you to become more like Jesus in this particular area . Jesus who saw the multitudes and was full of compassion . Right .

Oscar Navarro

Yeah , you know , cs Lewis is one of my favorite authors . He wrote a book called a grief observed . He lost his wife as well . Yes , and man , he writes quite a bit about it . One of the things that he says later on is that one thing that he didn't realize about grief is that he would be grieving Every day for the rest of his life . And at some point he says like grief , the grief today reminds me that the grief will be here again tomorrow .

Oscar Navarro

But before but in addition to that , he says something that you're kind of suggesting , which is , i Suggest to you , that it is because God loves us that he gives us the gift of suffering . Pain is God's megaphone to rouse a deaf world . You see , we are like blocks of stone out of which the sculptor carves the forms of men . I love his poetic ways of writing . The blows of his chisel , which hurt us so much , are what make us perfect , or , how you said it , make us more like his son , jesus . And which leads me to the question How do you , having someone who's not lost a wife though , by the way , when you said you were 37 , 39 , so that hit different to just thinking of , you know , familiar with that time period of your life . How does somebody hold on to their faith and see it chiseled into something beautiful Rather than lose their faith ? in that kind of a moment , what could you say ? Well , how could you speak into someone's life and who's experiencing something like that ?

Pat Nemmers

Well , i love the question because it brings us back to the elementals . By the way , i read that book , that little it's just a little , it is Yeah it's great and .

Pat Nemmers

But the quote that comes out of it , because it's so experiential , it's almost like he wrote it a couple days after she died . And My quote that I remember from that book , oscar , is her absence is like the sky spread over everything . Remember that quote Her absence is like the sky spread over everything . I underlined it , put the word quote next to it , because that was my experience in the moment . I disagree , however , with Lewis , if I dare say so . I know I'm not disagreeing with God In that your grief does have a low level of power , but it's not a low level of power . It's not a low level of power . It's not a low level of power . Your grief does have a limit . I would say to those who are grieving you can still miss them and miss their life and look forward to seeing them in heaven and all that goes along with it . But God does give beauty for ashes . He does give the oil of joy for mourning . He does give the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness , so that we may be called trees of righteousness , the planting of the Lord , that he may be glorified . And he did that through a series of circumstances , not the least of which is my wife Marilyn . I don't grieve over my first wife anymore And I'm pretty sure my wife doesn't grieve over her first husband , much as we love them with all of our hearts and look forward to meeting them again . But to your question to me it's elemental . We get back to the truth , we , you know . When tragedy strikes , how do we strike back ? We strike back , you know , with the truth . We have to preach the truth to ourselves . We all know that . But it's all the more important when tragedy strikes . That's when our I mean my first message I preached when I got back in the pulpit was a message titled When Your Theology Comes to Bear . So this is when we have to . You know you're preaching these things . You know we're preaching that God is sovereign , that he has a there's perfect , that this wasn't a mistake .

Pat Nemmers

And I remember I have to tell you a story two weeks after my wife died , we were supposed to go to a family camp . Now , normally we went to a family camp , i was the preacher , but this was a time when my wife and I discussed let's just go to one where you're not actually preaching , honey , can we just enjoy a camp without you preaching ? I said , okay , we'll do it . So we lined up to go to the camp . In between the lining up and going , she died . And so I thought , well , we're not going to camp . But the camp director called and said Pat , we'll pay your way . We know what happened . Please come bring your kids , it'll be good for them . And he was right The kids . It was a great distraction .

Pat Nemmers

But we went to the camp and this preacher got up and he was an older man , about ready to retire . He'd been faithful to God all of his life And he was preaching through Luke . I mean , luke's gospel is the compassionate gospel , and his opening line , his opening line , was folks , i want you to know something as we get into this series today Jesus anticipates the needs of his children . And I'm telling you guys , i lost it right there in the pew . I lost it . Of course he does . Of course he does . I just needed to hear that true all over again . Jesus anticipates the needs of his children , and so it was that truth , and that goes along with it , that really bolstered me , and I would say the same thing to . I would say one more thing before you move on the next question , oscar , experiences are wonderful And I had my share of great experiences when my wife died , that God affirming his love and stuff . But so on the day of the funeral true story , i have pictures . People sent me pictures from all over the county . This is 1995 .

Pat Nemmers

On the day of the funeral really hot day in Iowa I go to the end of the driveway . I'm by myself , i don't want let the kids see that I'm weepy . And I looked up in the sky and I said God , another prayer . I remember , oscar , god , i know that Nina is with you , but would you just confirm that to me . I mean , i half thought he was gonna paint her name in the sky . I mean , really , i thought I'm this , i'm a man of faith here , right ? Well , he didn't .

Pat Nemmers

We got through the funeral , the great day , sad day , and hundreds and hundreds of people , and finally they all left . There were just a few people left in our home . It was about 7.30 at night and a brief storm goes through My neighbor , my Roman Catholic neighbor , sweet lady who came over a nurse . she did mouth to mouth , tried to resuscitate my wife that night . She calls me . She says Pat , i know this isn't a very appropriate time , but you have got to go outside and see what's outside . We've never seen anything like it . We went outside , we took pictures , not a little to the left and not a little to the right , in the exact location I was looking up that morning , the exact location There was , to this day , the most powerful double rainbow I have ever laid my eyes on . Now let me ask you , gentlemen , do you think God gave me that rainbow ?

Oscar Navarro

He is the sovereign God of the universe ?

Pat Nemmers

He is , and I think the answer is yes . But let me tell you something I don't trust the fact that my wife is in glory because I saw a rainbow , much as it was God condescending to my weakness When I said would you just show that My wife is in heaven on the basis of truth , to be absent from the bodies , to be present with the Lord ? And that's what I would say to listeners going through tragedy . This is the time to lean into the truth , not look for somebody else to give it to you , even though it'll come from both directions .

Emeal Zwayne

Amen . Yeah , you know , one of the things that I often say is Lord , please never leave me alone with my own thoughts . That's one of the most dangerous . I thought you were gonna say with Ray , i do . That is one of the most dangerous places to be . And that's what happens .

Emeal Zwayne

We find ourselves facing tragedy , difficulty , trials , and what begins to happen is our mind , disconnected from God's word , begins to lean on human reasoning , human logic , and that's flawed And it's tainted with all sorts of sinful sort of foundations . And so we have to feed ourselves with truth . We have to go back to what God's word says . We have to determine that we're not gonna let ourselves be blown here and there by the winds of our emotions and our sentiment and our own logic and reasoning and the world's philosophies . All those things come to bear in those moments .

Emeal Zwayne

And that's why , pat , like you said , you make it a point to not leave your house until you have heard from God . Through his word , he's already given us his divine revelation that speaks to us , and so you inform yourself with truth , and I love the saying that says you know , i need to read God's word first thing in the morning because I'm gonna be lied to throughout the day . Right , right , and so that's key , ray . I wanted to have you comment on this . This is Jerry Bridges . He said trials always change our relationship with God . Either they drive us to him or they drive us away from him . The extent of our fear of him and our awareness of his love for us determine in which direction we will move .

Ray Comfort

Boy , that's so deep . I just wanna say I was so interested to hear you say you disagree with CS Lewis because I was thinking I can't disagree with CS Lewis because I'm not one to go down Grief Street .

Embracing Tragedy With Hope and Acceptance

Ray Comfort

When I lost my parents , i wept my heart out , absolutely wept my heart out , stood up and said that's it . And when those feelings of grief would come upon me and just almost swallow me up , i just say I'm not going there . I've been there , i've wept , i'm moving on . I'm like David , who lost his child , got up , washed his face , brushed his hair and cleaned his teeth and moved on . Well , it doesn't say cleaned his teeth .

Pat Nemmers

That's adding to scripture .

Ray Comfort

But yeah , when tragedy comes , if we find ourselves in a lion's den , a genuine Christian drops to his knees . He doesn't lift his fist to the heavens . What good does that do I mean ? tragedy should drive us closer to the Lord . The storms of adversity should cause our roots to go in deep searching for moisture , and that's what should happen when tragedy comes . and when tragedy comes .

Oscar Navarro

Yeah , yeah , let me so there . I think there's there's a few different things that we can probably chop up here . First is is that overwhelming grief that's debilitating ? I think that's what you guys are talking about . I'm not sure if CS Lewis was talking specifically about that . What we see well , i mean if we think about the here and not yet aspect of where we live the reality is that suffering and joy are a part of this life , always . They're two sides of the same coin , if you will . And until Jesus' fullness , the fullness of his kingdom is realized here on earth as it is in heaven , we are always going to be living with the pains of sin and death , and so we can have everlasting joy that pushes us through , that gives us hope , that puts a smile on our faith faith .

Ray Comfort

No , smile on their faith is okay . That doesn't worry about actually .

Oscar Navarro

And still feel the pain of suffering .

Ray Comfort

That's a book title Lasker Put a smile on your face .

Oscar Navarro

There you go , yeah . And so I think , for those who are struggling with suffering and grief right now , in the moment maybe you're in the midst of the storm and you haven't experienced what Pat and Ray are talking about , kind of the other side of it The goal isn't to get you to forget about your suffering . What the gospel does is provide us a joy that is set before us . Right , jesus didn't say I am joyfully looking to the cross . He said I'm joyfully looking for , i'm looking towards the joy set before me . The byproduct of this cross is going to be salvation for my people . In other words , he was eternally minded leading up to the cross . And for us who are experienced suffering , who are in the midst of a great storm , we have the joy set before us . We have the knowledge of knowing that loved ones who are in Christ are in heaven . We have the knowledge of knowing that one day , god will fulfill His promise , which every tear will be wiped away .

Ray Comfort

Yeah , amen . Can I just ask a special prayer , if I can , regarding tragedy ? I've been a Christian , i think 52 years And for those 52 years I've had a friend I used to serve for us . That's mocked me absolutely , put me down .

Ray Comfort

I'd write every few years say how you doing , kerry , and he'd always come back with a curse word and take me down by saying , sir , how much money you're making now with your God thing . And then when there's a big earthquake in our city he says , hey , tell your God to knock it off , and stuff like that . He was just an absolute marker . The other day I just once again years have passed by us is how you doing , kerry ? And he wrote back and he was incredibly humble . He just said how are you doing , how's your family doing , and stuff like that .

Ray Comfort

I thought what's going on ? And then I wrote back and I said Kerry , do you think there's an afterlife ? What happens when people die ? And he says that's been plaguing me because I just lost my wife and my son . He lost his wife and his son . He's not a Christian . So I sent him a link to one of our videos . I said , well , don't feel pressured by me . But I said I was in fear and trembling , just to say to you , ask you what happens after someone dies . I didn't expect them to come back in humility , but it sure has shattered him And I pray that it brings them to the foot of the cross and maybe make a price .

Ray Comfort

His name's Kerry .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , amen , pray for Kerry . friends , and I love this quote by Mark Devere . He said embracing trials doesn't mean that we're to pretend that they are not trials . It simply means that we are not to let our reaction to them be determined by how they first feel to us . That's good , that's really good .

Pat Nemmers

That's really good . That reminds me of what happened , and probably about a month after my wife died . I don't get real cyclanolidical and all of this And I don't get go cycle babble on anybody normally , but when I'd walk into my bedroom , like a paw would just come over me . I just every time I'd walk into our bedroom it just like I wanted to be in there only as long as I needed . What would come of you ? Just a paw , just sort of like a heaviness . I mean just a I and I just didn't .

Pat Nemmers

I thought , well , it's my bedroom , i need to go to bed . But I slept on the couch for the first three weeks And so I finally said this is silly . So I got to go , i got to go to her bed . So I went into bed for the first time about three or four weeks after my wife died And I slept on my side of the bed . I got in bed and I was . I was reading of Job And we all know about Job , job chapter one and then Job chapter two . I mean , you know I always tell people , after God allowed Satan to have that Job , the only thing he had left was his life and his wife , and he wasn't particularly excited about either one of them , and so and remember his wife said you should curse God .

Pat Nemmers

And then he says you speak like the foolish women of the land . And then these words were very powerful to me . Job said shall we accept good things from God , and shall we not also accept adversity ? And I sensed in that moment the Lord saying to me accept this . I hadn't been bitter , i hadn't been angry , been very , very sad , but I literally got on my knees next to the bed , put my hands in a cup position And I said God , i accept the lot that you've given to me And I'll take whatever you have to put in my hands . I surrender that to you . That was a big , big deal in terms of embracing And how we accepted .

Pat Nemmers

Just so most of us know , very recently one of the heroes of the faith of this last generation just died , tim Keller today . And so I was thinking about that And just thinking about it . My , our staff was going back and forth , the elders , and they were saying this and quoting that , and I just came back with two words . I said I'm sad And and I was thinking on this and I this sounds strange , but you know who came to my mind ? Walter Payton . Remember what his nickname was Sweetness , the running back for the Chicago Bears .

Pat Nemmers

The 1985 world champion Chicago Bears , walter Payton , was one of the greatest running backs of all time . He had a liver disease which which did kill my first wife's husband and nearly killed her son , our son from that first marriage with my wife . I mean , he lived through it , got a liver transplant . He's doing great . Walter Payton had a liver disease that was killing him And he went on the media and I can remember how pathetic it was . Sad and pathetic . He was crying and weeping , crying . Please , i need a liver , please . It was just , it was so pathetic to look at And he died . Today Tim Keller died And one of his final words , registered by his son , were , quote there is no downside for me leaving , not in the slightest , and I thought sad but exalting . Not sad and pathetic , but sad and exalting . What a difference . What a difference a Christian faces tragedy or should , versus those who have no hope .

Oscar Navarro

I just read that quote this morning in our meeting .

Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , very powerful . Amen , yeah . And you know , pat , i think back to when my mom passed . I was 18 years old . My mom and I were super close Before I became a Christian . I used to say , if my mom ever dies , i'll commit suicide . That's how so close we were . But after she passed , i had been keeping a recorded journal that I still have on my little tape recorder . And I remember after she passed , when I was holding her in my arms , she took her last breath .

Emeal Zwayne

I went in my room , i dropped to my knees and I was reminded of it because you mentioned Job and I . I recited the words of Job . The Lord has given , the Lord has taken away . Blessed be the name of the Lord . Amen . And for the believer , in the final analysis , that's what it comes down to Amen , blessing the name of our great and awesome God . And I love the words of John MacArthur the only way out of a trial is through it . The Lord promises no bypass , only that he will always see his people through the trials without their suffering , spiritual harm , and that's how we see in the dark .

Pat Nemmers

Amen Amen

Striking Back From Tragedy

Pat Nemmers

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Emeal Zwayne

Yeah , and that , friends , is how we strike back when tragedy strikes . Pat , thanks for just giving us that intimate glimpse into your life . We all got radically emotional through that , but it does us a world of good , because it's one thing to theorize about how to make it through difficult times . It's another thing to actually not only survive it , but to go through one of the most difficult things imaginable not just losing your wife , but unexpectedly while you were holding her in your arms and to make it through in such a way that God has glorified lives are touched , impacted , hearts are transformed . And so , brother , thank you , we love you . Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today And please , friends , get retractions , cultivating humility after humiliation . You'll find a lot more to that story in there and a lot of other examples of how to strike back when tragedy strikes and to be built up in the Lord . So thanks for joining us , friends . No silliness , we'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast .